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Zionism

MBMMBMA1
Do you buy the Zionist argument that in Biblical times, God gave Jews the land that they currently occupy as Israel? In your opinion, was that adequate justification to displace the Palestinians who had been there for hundreds and hundreds of years(if not more)?

If God gave the Jews Israel in Biblical times, but they chose to leave, does that still mean that the land should be theirs a couple of thousand years later?

© MBM

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U UppityNegressA1
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
Do you buy the Zionist argument that in Biblical times, God gave Jews the land that they currently occupy as Israel?


No, but then again I'm an atheist and I view the Bible (Old Testament and New Testament) as the folklore and rhetoric of Bronze Age tribesmen in the Middle East. While I think it's a valuable piece of literature, I don't hold it in any higher esteem or moral value than I do the Vedas or the Scandinavian sagas.


quote:
In your opinion, was that adequate justification to displace the Palestinians who had been there for hundreds and hundreds of years(if not more)?


No!

quote:
If God gave the Jews Israel in Biblical times, but they chose to leave, does that still mean that the land should be theirs a couple of thousand years later?

Of course, my answer to this would be no, but then my answer for this question wouldn't matter b/c I don't accept the premise that the Jewish/Christian god exists. Even working on the premise that it did, I've heard so many interpretation among Christians and Jews alone that I'd have to say it depends on what facet of God is being considered---for example, angry, vengeful Yahweh from the Torah, or the forgiving hippy New testament version.
James Wesley ChesterJames Wesley ChesterA1
You know, when viewed in a vacuum, you think of vacant land. But, the land was not vacant.

There were a lot of Canaanites living in Canann.

Diop reports that there was a person named Canaan who was the son of a pharoah, and to whom this place, this land, was given. It was probably occupied, and conquered land.

I don't argue with God.

But whether you get kicked out, or left of your own volition, you are gone.

Possession still rules.

So what does that say about the Palistinians?

With or without the word of God, possession still rules.

War is still an option.

PEACE

Jim Chester
Black VikingBlack VikingA1
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
If God gave the Jews Israel in Biblical times, but they chose to leave, does that still mean that the land should be theirs a couple of thousand years later?


Absolutely not! It doesn't matter if God gave it to them or not .That is silly justification anyway. Hasn't anyone figured out yet that inserting religious dogma into international relations equals a breakdown in diplomacy?

The fact is they left. The Palestinians moved in. Now, centuries later, they just move back and displace the people there? The Palestinians didn't even take it by force. The Isrealies left!

I don't live in the house that I grew up in. My family voluntarily left for greener pastures. Is there any logical reason that could justify walking in and taking it fron the people who live there now? Just one, "God gave it to me!"

What a crock... Roll Eyes
xxGAMBITxxxxGAMBITxxA1
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
Do you buy the Zionist argument that in Biblical times, God gave Jews the land that they currently occupy as Israel? In your opinion, was that adequate justification to displace the Palestinians who had been there for hundreds and hundreds of years(if not more)?

If God gave the Jews Israel in Biblical times, but they chose to leave, does that still mean that the land should be theirs a couple of thousand years later?


1) The "jews" there now are NOT the "jews" refered to in the Bible.

2)Like everyone else, I agree...they left and gave up any and all claims to that land.

3) They did unto the Palestiaians what was done unto them by Nazi Germany. So they also gave up any moral and ethical rights in the dispute.

4)No one seems to ask "If God really meant for them to have that land, why do they have to fight, lie, and cheat to keep it?"
kresgekresgeA1
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
Do you buy the Zionist argument that in Biblical times, God gave Jews the land that they currently occupy as Israel? In your opinion, was that adequate justification to displace the Palestinians who had been there for hundreds and hundreds of years(if not more)?

If God gave the Jews Israel in Biblical times, but they chose to leave, does that still mean that the land should be theirs a couple of thousand years later?

I think that this is minor component of the Zionist argument, at least as originally concieved. Many, perhaps most Zionist are secularists. Further, many ultra Orthodox Jews, though extremely religious, have been staunchly anti-Zionist.

The real impetus for Zionism was WWII and the Holocaust and the feeling that the Jews needed a safe haven from future persecution. Palestine was one option, but there where many, including areas in South America.

This mess is of recent vintage, the creation of European countries.

I really don't think that God had much to do with it. Its just politics.

One more note, there have been Jews, Christians, and Muslims living in the area for centuries prior to this one. As to the comment about Jews chosing to leave, I am not sure to what you are referring. There where at least two exiles noted in the Hebrew Bible where at least a portion of the population was forced to leave Palestine. Then with the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem, many people fled or were forced out by the Roman occupation. So I guess I am not sure that this constitutes choice.
K Kweli4RealA1
quote:
1) The "jews" there now are NOT the "jews" refered to in the Bible.

2)Like everyone else, I agree...they left and gave up any and all claims to that land.

3) They did unto the Palestiaians what was done unto them by Nazi Germany. So they also gave up any moral and ethical rights in the dispute. 4)No one seems to ask "If God really meant for them to have that land, why do they have to fight, lie, and cheat to keep it?"



yeah

And especially, this:
quote:
4)No one seems to ask "If God really meant for them to have that land, why do they have to fight, lie, and cheat to keep it?"[/
MidLifeManMidLifeManA1
Why do we "African" Americans identify with our "Motherland"? We have been seperated from our land of origin for hundreds of years. Yes we may not say or think we can go back and stake claim to land already occupied by others. But we still have a connection.

It stands to reasons the Jews would have ties to this land. And there is more to it then they "left it" so it was up for grabs.

Do I think that just because it was "given by God" they have the right to walk all over others. No.
KocoliciousKocoliciousA1
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
Do you buy the Zionist argument that in Biblical times, God gave Jews the land that they currently occupy as Israel? In your opinion, was that adequate justification to displace the Palestinians who had been there for hundreds and hundreds of years(if not more)?

If God gave the Jews Israel in Biblical times, but they chose to leave, does that still mean that the land should be theirs a couple of thousand years later?


Noah..that's just like saying if a landlord let a tenant rent a house and then the tenant move and relocates then years later the tenant wants to return to the same house, which has been bought by another party....unless the other party is willing to rent the house to him...he may have a chance but if not...he is out of luck! Same thing! I always say, "whenever the time to split the sea, God shouldn't have came during slavery." So my answer is "NO!" fro
R RasC5
The palestinians were not displaced.. There were Jews already living in what is now Israel with the Palestinians.. But their number was very small.. after Israel was established, more and more Palestinians started comming to Israel from Lebonnen and Syria looking for job and opportunities.

A majority of the Palestinians are 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants..

Neverthless, I think they deserve to have their own country so I support the 2 state solution. However, that cannot be accomplished until the Palestinians and the Arabs recognize Israel's right to exist.
ZAKARZAKARA1
established, more and more Palestinians started comming to Israel from Lebonnen and Syria looking for job and opportunities.

A majority of the Palestinians are 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants..

I think you need to do some more research on your Middleast history. Palestinians have been in the area between Syria, Jordan and Egypt for many centuries, the European Jews started coming to that area around the Turn of the 20th Century. They basically forced hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to flew. One of the biggest issues in the Israel/Palestine conflict is the right of return for Palestinians,
R RasC5
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
established, more and more Palestinians started comming to Israel from Lebonnen and Syria looking for job and opportunities.

A majority of the Palestinians are 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants..

I think you need to do some more research on your Middleast history. Palestinians have been in the area between Syria, Jordan and Egypt for many centuries, the European Jews started coming to that area around the Turn of the 20th Century. They basically forced hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to flew. One of the biggest issues in the Israel/Palestine conflict is the right of return for Palestinians,


There were authentic Jews in the are for as long as the Palestinians have been there. What I'm saying is in the area that is now called Israel, the number of Palestinians was very small before the creation of Israel. It is after the European Jews arrival that the area became hot economically which attracted a lot of the Palestinians from the area to migrate into Israel.
ZAKARZAKARA1
There were authentic Jews in the are for as long as the Palestinians have been there. What I'm saying is in the area that is now called Israel, the number of Palestinians was very small before the creation of Israel. It is after the European Jews arrival that the area became hot economically which attracted a lot of the Palestinians from the area to migrate into Israel.
Posts: 24 | Registered: June 07, 2006

There were far more Arab, in Palestine that jews. THe majority of the jews arrive at the turn of th 20th Century, go read you history dud! Check out aaiusa.org, let them tell you about their own history.

think Zionism is good. Its better than Arabization. At least the Zionist are civilized.. The Arabs are still living with the same barberic laws as they did a thousand years ago.. They are savages... That's why they blow themselves up.

[B]This dude must be smoking crack,The Zionist are civilized they way they treat the Palestinians is civilized. Take people land , then occuppy the little land you give them to live on?? Controlling the waterways, the oil rights and all the commerce that goes on in those areas. you must be a jew spittin that ignorant shyt. Im not an Arab lover, or a Jew lover, but you cant take someones land control their natural resources and expect them to lay down and except it. At the end of the day, Britian and The US is responsible for that situation.
R RasC5
Zakar,
I'm not a jew. But, I don't blame the Jews for occupying the Pleastinian lands. Do you see what happened in Lebonnen? Israel gave back the lebonnen land in 2000 seeking peace... the Hezzbollah took advantage of that, and triggered all this chaos. IF Israel had hold on to the land in the first place, all this would not happened. Israel need to re-take part of Lebonnen for the sake of peace and security. You need the buffer zone to keep the Arabs out. You have to remember that it is the Arabs who declared war on Israel. Israel can live in peace if the Arabs would recognize it and sign a peace treaty..

They have a lot to learn from Egypt and Jordan.

And by the way, the Arabs were riding camels until the Jews came. The Jews within less than a decade of settling there, created the most properous and democratic nation in the entire middle east. Even today, Israel is the only real democracy around there..

The Arabs are not only uncivilized but are also racist.. Case in point, look no further than Darfur, Sudan. plus look around the world, the Arabs are still talking about stoning women and cutting people's hands.. These people need to go through an awekening..
Black VikingBlack VikingA1
quote:
Originally posted by Ras:
You have to remember that it is the Arabs who declared war on Israel.

That's a matter of perspective. Perhaps the Arabs considered Israel occupying land that was not theirs a declaration of war.

quote:
And by the way, the Arabs were riding camels until the Jews came.

Even if that were true, is there something wrong with riding camels?

quote:
The Jews within less than a decade of settling there, created the most properous and democratic nation in the entire middle east. Even today, Israel is the only real democracy around there..

Prosperous in what way? And, suppose the Arabs don't want democracy?

quote:
The Arabs are not only uncivilized but are also racist..

And Jews aren't uncivilized or racist?

Please define these terms, and then explain how they apply to Arabs... but not Jews.

quote:
Case in point, look no further than Darfur, Sudan. plus look around the world, the Arabs and muslims are still talking about stoning women and cutting people's hands..

It's disingenuous to point what one group of Arabs are doing in Darfur, and then project that to Arabs around the world. Particularly since the situation in Darfur is so much more complex than that.

quote:
These people need to go through an awekening..

I agree. However, I don't think it's our (or Israel's) responsibility to bring them that awakening. We should do us first...
xxGAMBITxxxxGAMBITxxA1
quote:
Originally posted by Ras:
Zakar,
I'm not a jew. But, I don't blame the Jews for occupying the Pleastinian lands. Do you see what happened in Lebonnen? Israel gave back the lebonnen land in 2000 seeking peace... the Hezzbollah took advantage of that, and triggered all this chaos. IF Israel had hold on to the land in the first place, all this would not happened. Israel need to re-take part of Lebonnen for the sake of peace and security. You need the buffer zone to keep the Arabs out. You have to remember that it is the Arabs who declared war on Israel. Israel can live in peace if the Arabs would recognize it and sign a peace treaty..

They have a lot to learn from Egypt and Jordan.

And by the way, the Arabs were riding camels until the Jews came. The Jews within less than a decade of settling there, created the most properous and democratic nation in the entire middle east. Even today, Israel is the only real democracy around there..

The Arabs are not only uncivilized but are also racist.. Case in point, look no further than Darfur, Sudan. plus look around the world, the Arabs are still talking about stoning women and cutting people's hands.. These people need to go through an awekening..


This is the result of under funded schools. bang

The so called "civilized" Jews are in the so called "state" of Isreal now because no one else wanted thier asses in thier countries. How in the world do you justify/rationalize turning over 500,000 people into refugees? Yes, they are refugees, a reality thats not only been acknowledged by the U.N and the world but even by the U.S and Isreal; admitted and documented many times over. Funny how those same "uncivilized" arabs rescued caucasions from thier "Dark Ages". Funny how the "civilized" Isrealis, have to rely on the U.S. for everything because no one else will give them a pot to piss in. The Jews did not create a democratic state. They're nothing but an extension of American policy aka a puppet, a tool, a front, etc. All the land they have, they had to take from someone. All of it. Secondly, stop talking about democracy like it's Gods gift to mankind. There was only one, true democracy in history, and it did'nt work (see Athens, Greece, Ancient). Thats why THIS country's "founding fathers" were dead set against it. Walk into another man's home and tell him to leave. Just make sure your Blue Cross/Blue Shield is paid up.
xxGAMBITxxxxGAMBITxxA1
quote:
And by the way, the Arabs were riding camels until the Jews came


And the Jews were homeless beggars, crying like bitches after World War 2. But they get some American armament and now they have the mindset that they're warriors reborn. Where was the "bad assness" when Hitler was breaking his foot off in their ass huh?

quote:
Israel can live in peace if the Arabs would recognize it and sign a peace treaty..


Why in the hell would anyone want to have peace with the burglar that stole your house? Why should the Arabs (or anyone else for that matter) recognize Isreal? It's not as if they actually produce anything the world needs. Unless you count chaos and greed as useful products.......

quote:
the Arabs are still talking about stoning women and cutting people's hands.


Yeah, nothing like the good ole west right? Whats a few lynchings, politcal chicanery, and "accidental police shootings" between friends...
NmaginateNmaginateA1
quote:
Originally posted by MidLifeMan:

It stands to reasons the Jews would have ties to this land. And there is more to it then they "left it" so it was up for grabs.

Do I think that just because it was "given by God" they have the right to walk all over others. No.


And that's the issue. We've discussed Liberia here and the consensus, I would gather from the views expressed then: that under no pretenses would we impose on the standing "indigenuousness" people, much less figure that we would subject them to the type of APARTHEID situation that's a part of Israel's past and present.

That Jews have a "tie" to the land and comparing them to us only makes their claims and actions worst. Further, the situation is exactly as YEMAYA said: an extension of the same type of WHITE SUPREMACY, EUROPEAN SUPREMACY along the same lines of that Manifest Destiny stuff.

That they have a "tie" is not a point that is not understood.

quote:
The real impetus for Zionism was WWII and the Holocaust and the feeling that the Jews needed a safe haven from future persecution. Palestine was one option, but there where many, including areas in South America.

This mess is of recent vintage, the creation of European countries.


And the European Jews dominate Israeli society. Go figure.
NmaginateNmaginateA1
quote:
Originally posted by Ras:
The palestinians were not displaced..


C'mon, dude... sck


quote:

    "It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonization or Jewish state without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
    ( Ariel Sharon, former Likud Party Prime Minister, Agence France Press, November 15, 1998 ).

    "We must expel Arabs and take their place."
    ( David Ben Gurian, former Labor Party Prime Minister, 1937 ).

    "There's no such thing as a Palestinian people. It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
    ( Golda Meir, former Labor Party Prime Minister ).

    "You don't simple bundle people onto trucks and drive them away. I prefer to advocate a positive policy, to create, in effect, a condition that in a positive way will induce people to leave."
    ( Ariel Sharon, August 24, 1988 )

    "The partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized...Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And forever."
    ( Menachem Begin, former Likud Party Prime Minister ).

    "I believed and to this say still believe, in our people's eternal and historic right to this entire land."
    ( Ehud Olmert, Israeli Prime Minister, to the US House of Representatives, June 2006 )


NmaginateNmaginateA1
Let me say that again.... C'mon, dude. sck


quote:

According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?

"Twenty-four. In some cases four or five people were executed, in others the numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary killing. Two old men are spotted walking in a field - they are shot...."

What you are telling me here, as though by the way, is that in Operation Hiram there was a comprehensive and explicit expulsion order. Is that right?

"Yes. One of the revelations in the book is that on October 31, 1948, the commander of the Northern Front, Moshe Carmel, issued an order in writing to his units to expedite the removal of the Arab population... "

Are you saying that Ben-Gurion was personally responsible for a deliberate and systematic policy of mass expulsion?

"From April 1948, Ben-Gurion is projecting a message of transfer. There is no explicit order of his in writing, there is no orderly comprehensive policy, but there is an atmosphere of [population] transfer. The transfer idea is in the air. The entire leadership understands that this is the idea. The officer corps understands what is required of them..."

Ben-Gurion was a "transferist"?

"Of course. Ben-Gurion was a transferist. He understood that there could be no Jewish state with a large and hostile Arab minority in its midst. There would be no such state. It would not be able to exist."

I don't hear you condemning him.

Ben-Gurion was right. If he had not done what he did, a state would not have come into being. That has to be clear. It is impossible to evade it.

"Without the uprooting Palestinians, a Jewish state would not have arisen here."



Benny Morris, for decades you have been researching the dark side of Zionism. You are an expert on the atrocities of 1948. In the end, do you in effect justify all this? Are you an advocate of the transfer of 1948?

"There is no justification for acts of rape. There is no justification for acts of massacre. Those are war crimes. But in certain conditions, expulsion is not a war crime. I don't think that the expulsions of 1948 were war crimes. You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs. You have to dirty your hands."

We are talking about the killing of thousands of people, the destruction of an entire society.

"A society that aims to kill you forces you to destroy it. When the choice is between destroying or being destroyed, it's better to destroy."

There is something chilling about the quiet way in which you say that.

"If you expected me to burst into tears, I'm sorry to disappoint you. I will not do that."

So when the commanders of Operation Dani are standing there and observing the long and terrible column of the 50,000 people expelled from Lod walking eastward, you stand there with them? You justify them?

"I definitely understand them. I understand their motives. I don't think they felt any pangs of conscience, and in their place I wouldn't have felt pangs of conscience. Without that act, they would not have won the war and the state would not have come into being."

You do not condemn them morally?

"No."

They perpetrated ethnic cleansing.

"There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide - the annihilation of your people - I prefer ethnic cleansing."

And that was the situation in 1948?


"That was the situation. That is what Zionism faced. A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them. There was no choice but to expel that population. It was necessary to cleanse the hinterland and cleanse the border areas and cleanse the main roads. It was necessary to cleanse the villages from which our convoys and our settlements were fired on."



http://www.counterpunch.org/shavit01162004.html
R RasC5
xxGAMBITxx ~ You're a raging anti-semite... You ought to be ashamed of yourself..

The Jews weren't able to protect themselves against the Nazi.. Nobody could the Nazi's almost took over Europe.. that's why the World went to War. Anyway, that kind of crap will never happen every again.. Israel or Jews will never suffer like that ever again... Israel can protect itself from any attack.. Thank goodness...
EP Empty PurnataA1
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
Do you buy the Zionist argument that in Biblical times, God gave Jews the land that they currently occupy as Israel? In your opinion, was that adequate justification to displace the Palestinians who had been there for hundreds and hundreds of years(if not more)?

If God gave the Jews Israel in Biblical times, but they chose to leave, does that still mean that the land should be theirs a couple of thousand years later?


How can a person say "God gave me this"?

What is God? How does one define God? Does God talk? If God does talk, how can one verify that it was "God" speaking to them? What justification is that if it was "God" speaking to them? Is this "God"'s input any more valuable than human input? Even if this 'God' is the Creator of the Universe, does that justify what they say? Does being a creator make one all-knowing? Humans can create androids and it doesn't make them perfect.

And the Jews in Israel today are not the Jews of the Bible. In fact, the Palestinians are more closely related to the Jews of the Bible than Ashkenazim (European) Jews. Palestinians are Arabs, descendants of Canaanites (the cousin tribe of the Hebrews) and some of them may be Hebrews who converted to Islam. In fact, there were still some Jewish Hebrews in Palestine who never left during the Jewish Exile and had been living there for 2,000 years who are now treated as 2nd class citizens by the Israeli government.

European Jews aren't the only people to be presecuted or have attempted genocide committed against. They weren't the only people in those concentration camps. It doesn't justify them bullying other people around just to get their own spot of land.
EP Empty PurnataA1
quote:
Originally posted by Ras:
xxGAMBITxx ~ You're a raging anti-semite... You ought to be ashamed of yourself..


If a person is pro-Arab, how can they be "anti-Semitic"? sck Arabs ARE Semites! bang

And you were the one making racist comments about Arabs:

quote:
Originally posted by Ras:
Arabs were riding camels until the Jews came


So STFU about the "racism" of others.

(BTW, I don't see what's wrong with having a horse culture. Arabs rode both horses and camels FYI, mostly horses except for villagers).
HonestBrotherHonestBrotherA1
quote:
Originally posted by Ras:
xxGAMBITxx ~ You're a raging anti-semite... You ought to be ashamed of yourself..

The Jews weren't able to protect themselves against the Nazi.. Nobody could the Nazi's almost took over Europe.. that's why the World went to War. Anyway, that kind of crap will never happen every again.. Israel or Jews will never suffer like that ever again... Israel can protect itself from any attack.. Thank goodness...



Israel does NOT equal Jews.

Israel is a country.

It is propaganda (clever propaganda but propaganda nevertheles) to label any critic of the country Israel as an anti-semite.

Arabs are semitic peoples too.

And there are Jews who criticize the Israeli treatment of Palestinians in particular and Arabs in general.

As Empty Purnata says, other people should not be made to pay for the villainy of Adolf Hitler.

You want to give the Jews a Jewish homeland and make somebody pay for the Holocaust?


Give em Germany.
NmaginateNmaginateA1
quote:
If a person is pro-Arab, how can they be "anti-Semitic"? Arabs ARE Semites!


Umbra said it best. That's just WHITE FOLKS perogative.
They can call Europe a continent so, obviously, anything they say goes. Roll Eyes


And what happened to that "The palestinians were not displaced..." idea of yours, RAS? I mean... I mean... Well, you know what I mean. Big Grin


Hey, you guys... I'm trying to figure out a good name for this type of CON-Feed behavior. You know, folks just throw stuff out there for what can only be described as a temporary distraction.

Speaking of CON-Feed... I've told him when he does that, it's just like that little scared girl in the horror pictures running from Jason or the Pyscho Killer of the Month. You know how those girls throw anything they can get their hands on just to prolong the foregone conclusion.

What's a good term for that? 19


..... 19

I'm sorry, RAS... You were saying?
xxGAMBITxxxxGAMBITxxA1
quote:
xxGAMBITxx ~ You're a raging anti-semite... You ought to be ashamed of yourself..



If thats your bullshit way of saying I believe in true justice and fairness then I'll wear that "raging anit-semite" tag with pride and a smile you brainless mouthpiece. Plus I'm pretty sure I've been to the "middle east" more times than you have so in my mind, your opinions on this subject are completely worthless.


quote:
The Jews weren't able to protect themselves against the Nazi.. Nobody could the Nazi's almost took over Europe.. that's why the World went to War. Anyway, that kind of crap will never happen every again.. Israel or Jews will never suffer like that ever again... Israel can protect itself from any attack.. Thank goodness...


What history book have you been reading? You think the Nazis just said "Hey we're badasses and we're coming in"? Europe had the power to shut Germany down, they lacked the will to do so at the begining! They were still trying to get over a little thing called World War 1 after all. You remember that little piece of history right?

EP and HB already said my refute to that ignorant little crack you tried to pull so I'll leave you with this: If the closest you've ever come to seeing another country/culture is watching National Geographic on t.v and you only get your news information from Fox News...then SHUT THE HELL UP!! Because you've already proven that you don't have the analytical capacity or strength of will for the idea of "freedom" that you regurgitate from others!
xxGAMBITxxxxGAMBITxxA1
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
If a person is pro-Arab, how can they be "anti-Semitic"? Arabs ARE Semites!


Umbra said it best. That's just WHITE FOLKS perogative.
They can call Europe a continent so, obviously, anything they say goes. Roll Eyes


And what happened to that "The palestinians were not displaced..." idea of yours, RAS? I mean... I mean... Well, you know what I mean. Big Grin


Hey, you guys... I'm trying to figure out a good name for this type of CON-Feed behavior. You know, folks just throw stuff out there for what can only be described as a temporary distraction.

Speaking of CON-Feed... I've told him when he does that, it's just like that little scared girl in the horror pictures running from Jason or the Pyscho Killer of the Month. You know how those girls throw anything they can get their hands on just to prolong the foregone conclusion.

What's a good term for that? 19


..... 19

I'm sorry, RAS... You were saying?


yeah...Damn skippy! tfro
U UppityNegressA1
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Let me say that again.... C'mon, dude. sck


quote:

According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?

"Twenty-four. In some cases four or five people were executed, in others the numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary killing. Two old men are spotted walking in a field - they are shot...."

What you are telling me here, as though by the way, is that in Operation Hiram there was a comprehensive and explicit expulsion order. Is that right?

"Yes. One of the revelations in the book is that on October 31, 1948, the commander of the Northern Front, Moshe Carmel, issued an order in writing to his units to expedite the removal of the Arab population... "

Are you saying that Ben-Gurion was personally responsible for a deliberate and systematic policy of mass expulsion?

"From April 1948, Ben-Gurion is projecting a message of transfer. There is no explicit order of his in writing, there is no orderly comprehensive policy, but there is an atmosphere of [population] transfer. The transfer idea is in the air. The entire leadership understands that this is the idea. The officer corps understands what is required of them..."

Ben-Gurion was a "transferist"?

"Of course. Ben-Gurion was a transferist. He understood that there could be no Jewish state with a large and hostile Arab minority in its midst. There would be no such state. It would not be able to exist."

I don't hear you condemning him.

Ben-Gurion was right. If he had not done what he did, a state would not have come into being. That has to be clear. It is impossible to evade it.

"Without the uprooting Palestinians, a Jewish state would not have arisen here."



Benny Morris, for decades you have been researching the dark side of Zionism. You are an expert on the atrocities of 1948. In the end, do you in effect justify all this? Are you an advocate of the transfer of 1948?

"There is no justification for acts of rape. There is no justification for acts of massacre. Those are war crimes. But in certain conditions, expulsion is not a war crime. I don't think that the expulsions of 1948 were war crimes. You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs. You have to dirty your hands."

We are talking about the killing of thousands of people, the destruction of an entire society.

"A society that aims to kill you forces you to destroy it. When the choice is between destroying or being destroyed, it's better to destroy."

There is something chilling about the quiet way in which you say that.

"If you expected me to burst into tears, I'm sorry to disappoint you. I will not do that."

So when the commanders of Operation Dani are standing there and observing the long and terrible column of the 50,000 people expelled from Lod walking eastward, you stand there with them? You justify them?

"I definitely understand them. I understand their motives. I don't think they felt any pangs of conscience, and in their place I wouldn't have felt pangs of conscience. Without that act, they would not have won the war and the state would not have come into being."

You do not condemn them morally?

"No."

They perpetrated ethnic cleansing.

"There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide - the annihilation of your people - I prefer ethnic cleansing."

And that was the situation in 1948?


"That was the situation. That is what Zionism faced. A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them. There was no choice but to expel that population. It was necessary to cleanse the hinterland and cleanse the border areas and cleanse the main roads. It was necessary to cleanse the villages from which our convoys and our settlements were fired on."



http://www.counterpunch.org/shavit01162004.html


You've gotta be friggin' kidding me! Unbelievable. If you didn't know who the speaker was or the context of the dialogue, and changed "Arab" to "Jew" and "Jew" to "white German", that whole conversation would be indistinguishable from an interview with a Nazi supporter.
NmaginateNmaginateA1
quote:
You've gotta be friggin' kidding me! Unbelievable. If you didn't know who the speaker was or the context of the dialogue, and changed "Arab" to "Jew" and "Jew" to "white German", that whole conversation would be indistinguishable from an interview with a Nazi supporter.


And that's from one of the "New Historians" who have uncovered information via the Israeli version of Freedom Of Information that challenges the prevailing Israeli historical narrative (the old script RAS must be using) which tried to say the Palestinians weren't displaced.
R RasC5
And you guys wonder why Israel and the Jews are paranoid and defensive.

It is this kind of hate that is festered all around the world that requires the Jews to be aggressive.

As the Chinese would say "Even a hare will bite when it is cornered"

This is why Israel is what it is today.. This is why Israel does what it does today. It is to protect its people from people like you, who hate the Jews and wish for their extermination. It has have been attempted multiple times before, and its is being attempted again. This is the same old song, same old story being told no matter where you go.. Africa, Europe, Asia, South America and even here with the liberal biggots and admitted anti-semite like xxGAMBITxx.

Jews have been subject to the most widespread religious discrimination in humanities history.. They would be committing suicide if they gave in to rhetoric like this...

Fool me once, shame on you; Fool me twice, shame on me!


More power to the state of Israel.
xxGAMBITxxxxGAMBITxxA1
quote:
Originally posted by Ras:
And you guys wonder why Israel and the Jews are paranoid and defensive.

It is this kind of hate that is festered all around the world that requires the Jews to be aggressive.

As the Chinese would say "Even a hare will bite when it is cornered"

This is why Israel is what it is today.. This is why Israel does what it does today. It is to protect its people from people like you, who hate the Jews and wish for their extermination. It has have been attempted multiple times before, and its is being attempted again. This is the same old song, same old story being told no matter where you go.. Africa, Europe, Asia, South America and even here with the liberal biggots and admitted anti-semite like xxGAMBITxx.

Jews have been subject to the most widespread religious discrimination in humanities history.. They would be committing suicide if they gave in to rhetoric like this...

Fool me once, shame on you; Fool me twice, shame on me!


More power to the state of Israel.


Just like everyone of your ilk, you made damn sure you bypassed every point I made in my last post to you. Oh, I'm still wearing your "anti-semite" moniker with pride a smile. Tell you what, find another outlet besides Fox News and Jerry Falwell and you might be able to hold your own around here. Heres another little thought to chew on since you love Isreal so much. If God is really on their side and they are so right, why oh why, do they have to fight so hard to keep their land? Why do they have to rely on the U.S. so much? Sure is lot of trouble to go thru to have something with "Gods blessing". Or is that too much for your "Just do what they tell me" mentallity?

Nothing worse than a mental midget with an agenda..sheesh....
xxGAMBITxxxxGAMBITxxA1
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TheAirman:
Hey, "Zionists"...

If some Native Americans (Indians) came up to you with a superior army after 300 years of not being around, and claimed the site of your home to be their ancestral lands and demanded you to move, would you?

Didn't think so.

And Ras, don't hide your lack of an argument under the guise of "hate".[/QUOTE]

yeah appl
K Kweli4RealA1
quote:
I'm starting to wonder whether this guy is black ... defending Jewish paranoia against black paranoia?


quote:
Originally posted by Ras:
This is the same old song, same old story being told no matter where you go.. Africa, Europe, Asia, South America and even here with the liberal biggots and admitted anti-semite like xxGAMBITxx.


Liberal biggots?!? No wondering here.
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