You can't help who you love

I feel ya....

"Love" is a process....Cupid does'nt hit you with an arrow, he slowly poisons you thru your drink.

People who spout "You can't help who you love" tend to be weak-willed and weak-minded thru my observations.

I don't really have any experience to draw from, but I tend to think that we make the conscious decision to open ourselves up to giving and/or receiving love, but we don't particularly control who we are going to connect with while we are in this Open Period.

However, I think it's overused as an excuse for staying in a bad situation. IMO, it's perfectly possible to love someone like crazy AND STILL recognize that they are no good for you as a partner/spouse/whatever. You may not be able to "control who you love" but you certainly have control over who you choose to marry or share your life with.

Sorry to drop the bombshell

but this is the same excuse used for

Incest, Interracial dating, Homosexual dating, and any other form of dating that is antagonized by society.

LOVE needs to stop being the format for a 'conscious' rebellion against morality and society. LOVE needs to stop being blamed for our intentional indiscretions. LOVE needs to quit being used as the inadvertant culprit in the crime against the flow of nature, the flow of society, and the flow of life.

The 16/17/18 year old daughter that says...
"But Daddy I love him"
Gets no 'love' sympathy from me

The son that says
"But Daddy I love him"
Gets no 'love' sympathy from me

These and many other instances were love is brutally abused are used as manipulative tools that 'inadvertantly' contradict the nature of love.

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
Sorry to drop the bombshell

but this is the same excuse used for

Incest, Interracial dating, Homosexual dating, and any other form of dating that is antagonized by society.

What about the forms that aren't antagonized by society?

I failed to see the explosion...

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
LOVE needs to quit being used as the inadvertant culprit in the crime against the flow of nature, the flow of society, and the flow of life.

Sorry to drop the bombshell...

But any act which occurs in nature is in fact a natural act.

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
LOVE needs to quit being used as the inadvertant culprit in the crime against the flow of nature, the flow of society, and the flow of life.



Sorry to drop the bombshell...

But any act which occurs in nature is in fact a natural act.

Well by your definition their is no such thing as UN-Natural...

Interesting....


Moving along


The Wife that says...
"But darling I love him"
Gets no love sympathy from me

quote:

What about the forms that aren't antagonized by society?

I failed to see the explosion.

What about them?

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
LOVE needs to quit being used as the inadvertant culprit in the crime against the flow of nature, the flow of society, and the flow of life.



Sorry to drop the bombshell...

But any act which occurs in nature is in fact a natural act.

Well by your definition their is no such thing as UN-Natural...

Yes there are unnatural events: people raising from the dead after 3 days...

Unnatural since they don't occur in nature...

quote:

Unnatural since they don't occur in nature...

Are we talking about humans or animals... Me personally I like to make a distinction; and just cut straight to what you're alluding to. Also, I don't think dying and coming back to life deals with the 'conscious' effort that I am speaking of.

Unfortunately, I'm not interested in the love between two giraffes. The love to which I am speaking of has a unique essence. The love between a Man and a Woman, and it's SPIRIT.

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:

quote:

Unnatural since they don't occur in nature...

Are we talking about humans or animals... Me personally I like to make a distinction; and just cut straight to what you're alluding to.

Unfortunately, I'm not interested in the love between two giraffes. The love to which I am speaking of has a unique essence. The love between a Man and a Woman.

Human beings ARE a part of nature, genius. I don't like to make a distinction...

Humans and Animals, don't (fully) share the same set of paths, goals, dreams, attributes, spirit, or desires. <-- And in this regard I like to make a distinction

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
Humans and Animals, don't (fully) share the same set of paths, goals, dreams, attributes, spirit, or desires.

Excuse me... But I really tire of windbags pontificating on "unnatural" love from the vantage point of their puritanical un-natural morality... Anyway, you're mixing apples and oranges all over the place.

quote:

Excuse me... But I really tire of windbags pontificating on "unnatural" love from the vantage point of their puritanical un-natural morality... Anyway, you're mixing apples and oranges all over the place.

This is YOUR fruit salad.

You had no intentions on talking about LOVE. The topic is LOVE.

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
LOVE needs to quit being used as the inadvertant culprit in the crime against the flow of nature, the flow of society, and the flow of life.

FRUIT SALAD INGREDIENTS:

1. 3 acts which are contrary to nature
2. 1 act contrary to society
3. 1/2 tsp of acts contrary to life

Martin Luther King advocated acts contrary to society in the form of Civil Disobedience...

Is there something wrong with an act simply because most people disapprove?

Are these acts the same as acts contary to nature?

Or those contary to life?

Correction: YOUR FRUIT SALAD

AND YES: I AM TALKING ABOUT LOVE

quote:

The love to which I am speaking of has a unique essence. The love between a Man and a Woman

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:

quote:

The love to which I am speaking of * has a unique essence. * The love between a Man and a Woman

Why?

Follow me...

We know that their is no societal measuring stick or standard in relation to WHAT love really is. We know that LOVE is a mystery. I think their are people that take advantage of the human inability to decipher what love is.
We measure it by actions...
Well, can love be perfect, but a person less than perfect? Can someone love someone more than they are spiritually and intellectually capable of displaying? Love in essence, is blameless, but people aren't, so why should actions be the sole measure of love?

We measure it by past experiences
Also a less than perfect measure

We measure it by what other people 'feel' like they know about love.

I can't think of any good measures.

Be back...

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
Follow me...
.................
I can't think of any good measures.

Be back...

I'll be waiting... and while you're at it, make damn sure you find an adequate measure that distinguishes the love between man and woman from, say, that between a woman and a woman...

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by HeruStar:

quote:
The love to which I am speaking of * has a unique essence. * The love between a Man and a Woman


Why?

One obvious reason why is...
This LOVE (between a man and a woman) is more deceptive than any other love. And not necessarily deceptive in a devious, malicious way. I'm talking about it's unknownness.

quote:

I'll be waiting... and while you're at it, make damn sure you find an adequate measure that distinguishes the love between man and woman from, say, that between a woman and a woman...

This would contradict my whole purpose because I don't identify the love between a woman and a woman as 'love' at all.

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
One obvious reason why is...
This LOVE (between a man and a woman) is more deceptive than any other love. And not necessarily deceptive in a devious, malicious way. I'm talking about it's unknownness.

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
This would contradict my whole purpose because I don't identify the love between a woman and a woman as 'love' at all.

This is called begging the question: merely ASSUMING that which you're trying to prove... If you wish to claim the "uniqueness" of something then you must clearly distinguish it from similar phenomena...You've simply declared without justification that all the other similar phenomena are disqualified from the discussion at the start...

The idea is...

When I hear the words, 'I can't help who I love', automatically I recognize this as manipulative rhetoric. Honestly, if two men or two women could really 'love' eachother, then why would they use 'I can't help...' as their basis. That's already a shaky foundation to begin with, IMO.

And the whole 'it occurs in NATURE' argument is even worse. Last time I checked dogs could care less if they were 'first cousins'. Meaning they don't have the same set of societal morals, so why throw them into the equation. Why even bring them up when discussing LOVE anyhow?

HONESTBrother,
Let's practice some of that honesty and integrity when discussing how some are less than honest about their intentions (i.e. "I love you but I'm not in love with you so I can't help that I love someone else").

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
When I hear the words, 'I can't help who I love', automatically I recognize this as manipulative rhetoric. Honestly, if two men or two women could really 'love' eachother, then why would they use 'I can't help...' as their basis. That's already a shaky foundation to begin with, IMO.

So you've heard EVERY same sex couple declare that they cannot help who they love??...

Also, have you also gone around asking heterosexual couples why they love who they do thus similarly putting them on the defensive?

quote:

And the whole 'it occurs in NATURE' argument is even worse. Last time I checked dogs could care less if they were 'first cousins'. Meaning they don't have the same set of societal morals, so why throw them into the equation. Why even bring them up when discussing LOVE anyhow?

The taboo against first cousins varies across even human societies...

quote:

HONESTBrother,
Let's practice some of that honesty and integrity when discussing how some are less than honest about their intentions (i.e. "I love you but I'm not in love with you so I can't help that I love someone else").

I AM practicing honesty and integrity. You may question the correctness of my analysis but do not question my integrity...

Perhaps, I should speak more slowly so that you understand me?

PS: In this last part, you are starting to mix fruit salad again, dude...

If you want to hold irrational indefensible prejudices, just say so! It's your right to do so. Then we can stop holding this thread hostage. But please stop the BS! I do so hate it when people try to BS me...

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
The idea is...

When I hear the words, 'I can't help who I love', automatically I recognize this as manipulative rhetoric. Honestly, if two men or two women could really 'love' eachother, then why would they use 'I can't help...' as their basis. That's already a shaky foundation to begin with, IMO.

You're going in the wrong direction with this. Homosexuality has nothing to do with "love", it has to do with sexual attraction. There are many people that I love that I am not attracted too, and many people that I'm attracted too that I don't give two shits about. They are not the same thing. There is no reason why two men or two women can't have both love and attraction, but one is not a prerequisite for the other.

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
Sorry to drop the bombshell

but this is the same excuse used for

Incest, Interracial dating, Homosexual dating, and any other form of dating that is antagonized by society.

No one that I've ever met or spoken with uses love as an excuse for these things. In fact, people rarely make excuses about their romantic lives to me at all. Would you like to know why?

Because I don't require it. I don't require justification for anything that doesn't affect me or harm the innocent.

quote:

Originally posted by Frenchy:
we make the conscious decision to open ourselves up to giving and/or receiving love, but we don't particularly control who we are going to connect with while we are in this Open Period.

However, I think it's overused as an excuse for staying in a bad situation. IMO, it's perfectly possible to love someone like crazy AND STILL recognize that they are no good for you as a partner/spouse/whatever. You may not be able to "control who you love" but you certainly have control over who you choose to marry or share your life with.

Well said, Frenchy.....

I co-sign with Frenchy....

I too do not believe you "control who you love"

when you love someone passionately and the reasoning behind it is sound (and of course they love you back).... you didn't make that happen....

it just happened....

the question is what are you going to do about it....

are you going to give in....

or will you let it go.....

and that depends on the person's wishes and desires...

I believe....


Peace,
Virtue

quote:

when you love someone passionately and the reasoning behind it is sound (and of course they love you back).... you didn't make that happen....

it just happened....

Virtue,

Spiritually/subconsciously their is that 'x' factor,

that...hmm... "There's just something about him/her".

But whether it's spiritual or not, there is still a conscious choice to ACT on our spirit/subconscious. We CHOOSE to act contrary to our spirits/subconscious everyday, hence whether we'd like to admit it or not, we DO have CONTROL. Why is it that in the matter of 'love' we hide behind the spirit/subconscious/mystery? This is how love becomes synonomous with drug addiction.

People choose to GIVE up CONTROL. THIS IS a CONSCIOUS decision. It is akin to voting for a dictator, we vote for who we think is going to make the best decision for us. The name on the LOVE ballot, is one that we consciously chose.

So when someone says 'I can't help who I love', I tell them 'The heck you can't'. There's only ONE vote.

Taken from a different angle...

I saw Madea's Family Reunion last night.
There's a woman in it that is Deeply in love with a man. But because of her past she doesn't ACT on that love. Granted she was aided by her subconscious oppressive demons (if you will), the fact remains that she did not ACT on that love... initially.

I loved it when she told her mother "I'm going to love HARD!" This SIGNIFIES my point that we CHOOSE to love. We control the TEMPERATURE/THERMOSTAT of our love.

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:

quote:

when you love someone passionately and the reasoning behind it is sound (and of course they love you back).... you didn't make that happen....

it just happened....

Virtue,


I saw Madea's Family Reunion last night.
There's a woman in it that is Deeply in love with a man. But because of her past she doesn't ACT on that love.

There is the difference Heru..... she began already in love with someone....

quote:

the fact remains that she did not ACT on that love... initially.

The fact is she did not ACT on something that was already present.....

LOVE....

quote:

This SIGNIFIES my point that we CHOOSE to love.

Unfortunately, I disagree....

quote:

We control the TEMPERATURE/THERMOSTAT of our love.

I agree....


Peace,
Virtue

Virtue,

I'll try African thought.

The english language does love no justice.

love

1. A deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward a person, such as that arising from kinship, recognition of attractive qualities, or a sense of underlying oneness.

2. A feeling of intense desire and attraction toward a person with whom one is disposed to make a pair; the emotion of sex and romance.

This is the Western concept of love... a feeling.

But LOVE is an unconditional, uncompromising spirit. That can be worshipped. That can be obeyed or disobeyed. That can be acknowledged or ignored, invited or uninvited. In African thought LOVE is ALIVE. It can be talked to. It MOVES.

This means that when you say you love someone, you are invoking a SPIRIT that is higher than yourself, in order to PERFORM an act or action. It MUST be CONJURED. Otherwise it IS NOT LOVE.

Most importantly LOVE requires your PERMISSION, as well as your submission. It is not a rude spirit as most people claim it is; it doesn't just jump into your soul... THIS IS NOT LOVE. In my humble, honest opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
Virtue,

I'll try African thought.

The english language does love no justice.

love

1. A deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward a person, such as that arising from kinship, recognition of attractive qualities, or a sense of underlying oneness.

2. A feeling of intense desire and attraction toward a person with whom one is disposed to make a pair; the emotion of sex and romance.

This is the Western concept of love... a feeling.

But LOVE is an unconditional, uncompromising spirit. That can be worshipped. That can be obeyed or disobeyed. That can be acknowledged or ignored, invited or uninvited. In African thought LOVE is ALIVE. It can be talked to. It MOVES.

This means that when you say you love someone, you are invoking a SPIRIT that is higher than yourself, in order to PERFORM an act or action. It MUST be CONJURED. Otherwise it IS NOT[b] LOVE.

Most importantly LOVE requires your PERMISSION, as well as your submission. It is not a rude spirit as most people claim it is; it doesn't just jump into your soul... THIS IS NOT LOVE. In my humble, honest opinion.

Damn.....





Peace,
Virtue

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by HeruStar:
When I hear the words, 'I can't help who I love', automatically I recognize this as manipulative rhetoric. Honestly, if two men or two women could really 'love' eachother, then why would they use 'I can't help...' as their basis. That's already a shaky foundation to begin with, IMO.



So you've heard EVERY same sex couple declare that they cannot help who they love??...

Also, have you also gone around asking heterosexual couples why they love who they do thus similarly putting them on the defensive?

This is the type of unfounded BS I'm talking about. Where did I say that EVERY couple has that EXCUSE? Where did I even portray the desire to know WHY people, gay or straight, love eachother. What you should infer from what I said, is that 'people who use the statement "I can't help who I love" have a faint understanding of what LOVE IS'. You have a very hard time following. Nothing you say follows.

I'm talking about people (gay or straight)(this does not include the entire universe) who USE love as a distraction, in order to fulfill their selfish agenda. I'm talking about people who have absolutely know idea what love is... the kind that give you a blank look when you ask them "how do you know you're in love"... I'm talking about the people that think love is JUST a feeling; the ones that do believe love is just a feeling, but haven't even thoroughly searched their FEELINGS.

Obviously you haven't had much time to put any real thought on LOVE. This, I infer from your lack of contribution to the love concept.

Now...
In this thread, we are going to dig deep into this love essence, otherwise, save your non-contributions.

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
This is the type of unfounded BS I'm talking about. Where did I say that EVERY couple has that EXCUSE? Where did I even portray the desire to know WHY people, gay or straight, love eachother. What you should infer from what I said, is that 'people who use the statement "I can't help who I love" have a faint understanding of what LOVE IS'. You have a very hard time following. Nothing you say follows.

I do NOT have a hard time following. You have a hard time staying on one track. You were going from one instance to another instance, mixing them, apples and oranges, without making important (and real) distinctions.

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
This would contradict my whole purpose because I don't identify the love between a woman and a woman as 'love' at all.

So YES I would certainly agree that there is a kind of immature/irresponsible "love" which you cite in examples like "Yes, Dear, we're married but I love him..." But you discounted the possibility of homosexual love ALTOGETHER as evidenced by the above sentence. You threw this entire category in with the other examples (that I agree with you on).

Again in the quote below you make heterosexual love a special instance:

quote:

The love to which I am speaking of * has a unique essence. * The love between a Man and a Woman *

And again in the following quote

quote:

if two men or two women could really 'love' each other, then why would they use 'I can't help...' as their basis. That's already a shaky foundation to begin with, IMO.

you seem to indicate that you believe from the start that love between two men is impossible. Not just in certain 'immature' instances. But ALTOGETHER.

THESE ARE YOUR WORDS.

I have indeed thought much on love.... And if you would stop the bullshit I might share my thoughts on the subject.

Heru, I may not be an absolute authority on Love but I know logic like the back of my hand... And I can read what you fucking wrote.

* So stop your fast slide toward Melesi on the road to senility/intellectual dishonesty *

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
This would contradict my whole purpose because I don't identify the love between a woman and a woman as 'love' at all.



So YES I would certainly agree that there is a kind of immature/irresponsible "love" which you cite in examples like "Yes, Dear, we're married but I love him..." But you discounted the possibility of homosexual love ALTOGETHER as evidenced by the above sentence. You threw this entire category in with the other examples (that I agree with you on).

Let me help you out,

This 'discounted' business... is unfounded.
My words...
I don't identify the love between...
I meaning I, as in myself. I'm not the sole authority on humanity, just in case you didn't know. So because it is MY opinion that the love between same sexes is shaky, does not mean that I discount it. I can't IDENTIFY with it, as in IDENTIFY...

More later

I'm back

quote:

Again in the quote below you make heterosexual love a special instance:


quote:

The love to which I am speaking of * has a unique essence. * The love between a Man and a Woman *



And again in the following quote


quote:

if two men or two women could really 'love' each other, then why would they use 'I can't help...' as their basis. That's already a shaky foundation to begin with, IMO.



you seem to indicate that you believe from the start that love between two men is impossible. Not just in certain 'immature' instances. But ALTOGETHER.

I seem to indicate? I spoke about impossibilities? The only thing that 'seems' 'impossible' is your 'following' this discussion without making dramatic, unfounded, interjections that have absolutely no basis. Worst of NO PURPOSE. What is it that you would like to know?