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At a recent gathering, I was chastised by several Black women for stating that I refused to consider / date / marry a sista who alters the texture of her hair. "If I wanted the aesthetics of a white woman, I would choose one." I was called all types of names. However, when I asked those same women if they would consider a brother who perms his hair, there was complete silence.

Why the contradiction? Why the hypocrisy? Why come the majority of sistas ignore the backward ass legacy of the hot comb? When will our women stand up and confront the pathology? And can we EVER have a honest discussion with Black women about this issue?

If this is a recycled issue on this board, then accept my apology in advance.

Black Child's Pledge I pledge allegiance to my Black People. I pledge to develop my mind and body to the greatest extent possible. I will learn all that I can in order to give my best to my People in their struggle for liberation. I will keep myself physically fit, building a strong body free from drugs and other substances which weaken me and make me less capable of protecting myself, my family and my Black brothers and sisters. I will unselfishly share my knowledge and understanding with them in order to bring about change more quickly. I will discipline myself to direct my energies thoughtfully and constructively rather than wasting them in idle hatred. I will train myself never to hurt or allow others to harm my Black brothers and sisters for I recognize that we need every Black Man, Woman, and Child to be physically, mentally and psychologically strong. These principles I pledge to practice daily and to teach them to others in order to unite my People. The Black Panther, October 26, 1968 by Shirley Williams

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quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
At a recent gathering, I was chastised by several Black women for stating that I refused to consider / date / marry a sista who alters the texture of her hair. "If I wanted the aesthetics of a white woman, I would choose one."


Shango......

it is not that simplistic.....

if you are just looking at a certain type of Black Woman.....

The Dravidians in India...... The Aborigines in Australia all have naturally bone straight hair.....

Straight hair is not indigenous to only white women.....

However.......

I believe you are on point when you say alter the texture of their hair.... because in our experience here in America... black women have historically responded to their own sense of beauty through a Eurocentric prism.... admittedly or not.....


however.....

there is the notion of basic aesthetics.... wherein women also will alter their appearance.... just to try something new... out of curiosity or alter their appearance because they genuinely feel better in that light.......

women's decisions in this regard are varied and sometimes complex..... yet, the issue of low self-esteem resulting from our awful sojourn here will be reluctantly, if that, admitted by most women with a perm......

most don't see it this way.... simply because they don't want to face it..... or.... they are unaware how deep the self rejection resides...


quote:
[b]I was called all types of names. However, when I asked those same women if they would consider a brother who perms his hair, there was complete silence.


Of course.... who wants to primp and preen in the mirror with their man??? that's what girlfriends are for...

laugh


quote:
Why the contradiction? Why the hypocrisy? Why come the majority of sistas ignore the backward ass legacy of the hot comb? When will our women stand up and confront the pathology? And can we EVER have a honest discussion with Black women about this issue?

If this is a recycled issue on this board, then accept my apology in advance.
It's been discussed before... but.... its an issue that still has relevance I believe..... most of the women that I know who discuss this.... are women who are already natural.......


Peace,
Virtue
That's your choice if you chose to date or marry a sista with a natural. I think that comment about the aesthetics of a white woman got you in trouble. Just because a sister has a relaxer doesn't mean that that she looks white or is even trying to look white. The reality of it is if you are black there isn't much you can do to look white. Its just not possible.
The reason that a sister won't date or marry a brother with a perm is because there is a presumption that he is effemanate or is gay. I certainly know that's what I'm thinking when I see a brother with chemicals in his hair.
I've had a natural for 6 years now and I love it. However, I don't get much play from the brothers. That's ok. Even before I let my hair go back to its natural state more West Indian and African men were attracted to me than African-American men. This hasn't changed since I changed my hair.
I think Black women should stop taking their emotional and style cues from white women and confused men walking around in Black skin.
quote:
I think that comment about the aesthetics of a white woman got you in trouble. Just because a sister has a relaxer doesn't mean that that she looks white or is even trying to look white. The reality of it is if you are black there isn't much you can do to look white. Its just not possible.

I strongly disagree.

The historical purposes for altering our hair, men and women, was directly related to 1) being more attractive to white people, and 2)erasing (as much as possible) that part of Africa. You and I both know it is IMPOSSIBLE to do so, however, there is an entire industry designed to make it happen. The industry of "race altering products" is substantial and generates billions of dollars in sales and revenue. And in the case of Black hair, sistas are spending a whole bunch of money to do the IMPOSSIBLE on a a temporary basis.

Given the origins of hair straightening, we must not allow our sisters or our people, to hide behind the belief that the process is a issue of taste and style. This is an issue of self hatred passed down through generations.
Personally, I think choosing/dating/marrying a partner based on hair texture is a little shallow. Roll Eyes

It also amazes me that people who have trouble with relaxed or straighten hair are never volunteers to do the daily/weekly/monthly maintenance and styling of another person's natural hair. Eek If I've got a man that is going to wake up every morning and maintain my (hair)do, then I would probably wear it in whatever style he wants it in!!

Shango67 ... when's the last time you did daily maintenance on a sista's hair? Confused
I wasn't going to chime in again..... but...

honestly....

many Black women's sense of beauty is derived from European standards......

I get that.....

I am natural..... have been for 13 years..... I have counseled women on going natural as well as helped women in the "transition" stage..... from perm to natural styling...
I have studied the history of the definition of beauty in this country and now how it affects Africa....

there are other considerations here.... when trying to understand why a Black woman will get a perm.....

1) European standards or beauty... including economic/job pressure... literally trying to hide her "naps" monthly with a perm.... or wanting to attract Black men who prefer this look (which is the majority)

2) Ease of care.... not from a European standard... but lackadaisical demeanor....

3) Curiosity

4) Genuinely likes the way her features pop out or are pronounced when she has a perm...

5) Tradition.... could care less about white women... Black male preference etc... she's just doing what always has been done by the women in her family and does not give it much thought thereafter....



Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Personally, I think choosing/dating/marrying a partner based on hair texture is a little shallow. Roll Eyes

It also amazes me that people who have trouble with relaxed or straighten hair are never volunteers to do the daily/weekly/monthly maintenance and styling of another person's natural hair. Eek If I've got a man that is going to wake up every morning and maintain my (hair)do, then I would probably wear it in whatever style he wants it in!!

Shango67 ... when's the last time you did daily maintenance on a sista's hair? Confused

Then color me shallow. It is not the basis but it sure is a starting point.

My son and I both have locks and I do his hair every month. And the sista I cared about allowed me to wash and twist her hair. Our relationship is over, but I did it whenever I was asked.

Maintaining natural hair can't be any more difficult than keeping those fucked up perms proper. They look even worse after Africa starts coming home... creeping up the back of the neck... marching through the scalp looking for the day when the new growth is attacked with more chemicals, more heat and more fire.
quote:
European standards or beauty... including economic/job pressure... literally trying to hide her "naps" monthly with a perm.... or wanting to attract Black men who prefer this look (which is the majority)

I met this lovely sista on the train who wore locks. She was a few years older than me but she finally agreed to meet for lunch near her job - down by the world trade center. When she showed up, I did not recognize her... She was wearing a wig.

I could barely concentrate on the menu. She sensed that I was uncomfortable and explained that her job on Wall Street, combined with her age, would not understand the locks. In fact, none of her co-workers have ever seen her hair.

I thought it was sad.
quote:
Originally posted by Yemaya:
The reason that a sister won't date or marry a brother with a perm is because there is a presumption that he is effemanate or is gay. I certainly know that's what I'm thinking when I see a brother with chemicals in his hair.
I agree.....
quote:
I've had a natural for 6 years now and I love it. However, I don't get much play from the brothers. That's ok. Even before I let my hair go back to its natural state more West Indian and African men were attracted to me than African-American men. This hasn't changed since I changed my hair.

That's funny... (as in unusual)....

I received more attention from African men when I wore a perm..... (perhaps because westernized versions of beauty are becoming more and more entrenched in the culture...)

I've received more attention from African-American men and Indian men since I've been natural....

I always get asked where I'm from..... it seems that men prefer an exotic look... or at least that's my experience....


Peace,
Virtue
I've said this before on this subject, but I'll say it again...

Choosing a mate based on their choice of hairstyle is superficial nonsense. There are far more important qualities to be concerned about.

Shango, I agree that I wouldn't want to date a woman consumed by self-hatred. But, the lonely fact that she straightens her hair, or wears a wig, is not rock hard evidence of self-hatred. If she is mired in self-loathing, evidence of it will crop up in many other areas of her life, and you'll see it for what it is. But, If you date her for a while, and your only "evidence" of self-loathing is that she straightens her hair, then you're reading something that's not really there.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
I've said this before on this subject, but I'll say it again...

Choosing a mate based on their choice of hairstyle is superficial nonsense. There are far more important qualities to be concerned about.

Shango, I agree that I wouldn't want to date a woman consumed by self-hatred. But, the lonely fact that she straightens her hair, or wears a wig, is not rock hard evidence of self-hatred. If she is mired in self-loathing, evidence of it will crop up in many other areas of her life, and you'll see it for what it is. But, If you date her for a while, and your only "evidence" of self-loathing is that she straightens her hair, then you're reading something that's not really there.

Again... it is not the foundation, but it is a start.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
Choosing a mate based on their choice of hairstyle is superficial nonsense. There are far more important qualities to be concerned about.

BV Not necessarily.....

Wearing your hair natural as a woman instantly says much about your perspective on beauty and your sense of self esteem in relation to the amount of pride you take in your heritage....

for some this aspect of self esteem is a paramount foundational clue to that persons other perspective on life....


I would not be so presumptious as to speak for this brother....

But my opinion is he wasn't saying that hair is the only consideration.... just an imporant one....


Peace,
Virtue
I think this is getting into something that is inherent to feminine psychology.

Women maintain and propagete the culture be it good or bad charactericts of the culture. Little girls adopt the emotional thinking of their mothers. How many Black women use Tide detergent? Ask them if their mothers used Tide. I think women with dark complexions that put blusher on their cheeks look ridiculous. They really couldn't blush if their lives depended on it. I asked my mother if I should tell them this. She said, "No , you can't tell them. The way she said it cracked me up.

I wonder how many Black men are involved with non-Black women not because of beauty but because they are sick of neurotic bullsh!t. I grew up with two older sisters. I was thinking Black girls had an inferiority complex about beauty before I graduated from grammar school. Then we have to deal with the denial. I remember my mother using the ironing comb on my sisters' hair. I was sitting in the kitchen staring at this comb on the stove. I was thinking, "Damn, that thing must be hot." Then my mother picked it up to use it on one of my sisters. Zzooommmm! I was gone. I was out of the kitchen. You think you are going to change the emotional programming of a woman that went thru that as a little girl. Forget it!

Men are more inclined to change but it presents the problem of dealing with women that refuse to change. It takes massive traumatic events to get millions of people to change.

We need to produce people who can allow there intellects ot override their emotions.

Vulcans? lol

umbrarchist
Okay, let me just be blunt ... but I hope not offensive to anyone. sck I will state now that it is not my intention to be, and I apologize for any hurt feelings this may cause right up front.

But, in my experience and circle of friends, the "other considerations" list that virtue posted above is much closer to the reasoning of Black women than that psycho-babble crap about self-loathing!! I mean, please!

How a man is going to sit and pass judgment and interpret personal preferences of the reasons why women style their hair the way the do is just beyond incomprehensible to me!! Eek And more than a little on the self-righteous side! An opinion is one thing ... but a general blanket aspersion is quite another!!

For most of the Black women I know, the way she styles her hair is a matter of personal preference or ease of care. To intimate that a woman does not know or is not mentally capable of knowing or is not responsible for her own personal preference (whether in hair or any other matter) based on some phantom perception of European-accepted sense of style and beauty is insulting!! A Black woman who determines anything about herself in an attempt to please society's warped sense what is right/wrong, good/bad, has deeper issues than anything her hairstyle may say about her!! I mean, pulleeeezz.

Statements and thoughts like the one depicted by Shango67 here go much farther to disrespect the intellect and the determination of self-worth of the Black woman than half of what some White people may say or think. I mean, maybe ... just maybe ... the majority of Black women perm or straighten their hair because they like it that way, it's what they want to do and it is their personal preference to do so!! Eek

I would submit that that's probably the reason why women who wear their hair naturally do so ... are they the only ones who deserve to be recognized (and respected) for having a mind of their own??

I certainly don't begrudge Shango67 his preference in the type of women he's attracted to ... but leave it as a personal preference ... not some mind-reading determination of Black women in general!
quote:
Maybe ... just maybe ... the majority of Black women perm or straighten their hair because they like it that way, it's what they want to do and it is their personal preference to do so!!

I doubt it... but if you need to hold on to this to sleep at night, then be my guest. To me, it is a self loathing process resulting from improper socialization.

And this is what I mean about the honesty, or lack thereof, in this discussion. We as a people, especially on this board, have no problem identifying pathologies in our community. But when it comes to talking about something so OBVIOUSLY fucked up, folks get HYSTERICALLY obtuse.
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
At a recent gathering, I was chastised by several Black women for stating that I refused to consider / date / marry a sista who alters the texture of her hair. "If I wanted the aesthetics of a white woman, I would choose one."


Thanks for the love Shango67. I'm glad you respect Black women who accept and embrace their natural hair.
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

But, in my experience and circle of friends, the "other considerations" list that virtue posted above is much closer to the reasoning of Black women than that psycho-babble crap about self-loathing!! I mean, please!

Hi Ebony! Smile

The other considerations given.... are real.... but included in them is self-loathing... there are just as many Black women who hate themselves and perm their hair out of embarrassment of their God given features.... preferring secretly to look like someone else .... a perm is a way to do this....

this is just as real..... but in life nothing is always as black and white as we'd like it... and so there are many women with whom this does not apply..... IMHO this does not negate the problem, though


quote:
How a man is going to sit and pass judgment and interpret personal preferences of the reasons why women style their hair the way the do is just beyond incomprehensible to me!! Eek
Possibly because we live in a society where this attitude is displayed often....

women often say things like "Girl I've got to touch up them naps!" or "My naps are showing"... these are statements of embarrassment..... not self acceptance.... I see it.... and others do too.... and sometimes are baffled by it..... this is just one aspect though......


quote:
And more than a little on the self-righteous side! An opinion is one thing ... but a general blanket aspersion is quite another!!
Perhaps what we are reading is the anger and frustration included in the words as well.... and there's nothing wrong with it.... behind all of that energy is love.... the unspoken message.. is ... "Why don't you see the beauty in you that I see"... not everyone is able to convey a message in the way we'd like to hear it...... at least that's what I read ....

quote:
For most of the Black women I know, the way she styles her hair is a matter of personal preference or ease of care. To intimate that a woman does not know or is not mentally capable of knowing or is not responsible for her own personal preference (whether in hair or any other matter) based on some phantom perception of European-accepted sense of style and beauty is insulting!!
I hope I haven't offended you Ebony......

I was referring to a reality that exists....

We are not the authors of this culture... and just as we have affected it it has had an effect on us.... and part of that effect is our self esteem..... there is a history in this country of devaluing our beauty .... our characteristics and features..... we have not been immune to its attack..... we ourselves have been affected by seeing a lighter skinned, thin, long haired woman as the standard of beauty.... and we have responded.... consciously and subconsciously.....


quote:
A Black woman who determines anything about herself in an attempt to please society's warped sense what is right/wrong, good/bad, has deeper issues than anything her hairstyle may say about her!! I mean, pulleeeezz.
But this happens...

quote:
Statements and thoughts like the one depicted by Shango67 here go much farther to disrespect the intellect and the determination of self-worth of the Black woman than half of what some White people may say or think. I mean, maybe ... just maybe ... the majority of Black women perm or straighten their hair because they like it that way, it's what they want to do and it is their personal preference to do so!! Eek
Sometimes our decisions are colored by our environment whether we know it or not......

quote:
I would submit that that's probably the reason why women who wear their hair naturally do so ... are they the only ones who deserve to be recognized (and respected) for having a mind of their own??
Yes.... my decision to go natural was a direct result of being in a certain environment.... one that focused on the natural beauty of African women.... I was affected.... but I think this is a good thing....

being affected by european standards of beauty in this condition is not so healthy....



Peace,
Virtue
virtue ...

No, you did not offend me Smile. And while I completely understand your argument, all I am saying is that while I don't deny that in many cases self-hatred plays a role in Black people's decisions (hair or something else) ... there are equally a number of cases where it has nothing to do with anything regarding their actions or preferences! You said as much ... and I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Now ... you should probably close your ears/eyes because I really like you and think you're sweet and this isn't going to be nothin' nice! Big Grin

I find Shango67 offensive in every possible comprehension! That's my personal perception and can guarantee it is not European-based perspective. I would no doubt believe he has a same low opinion of me! It be that way sometimes.

However, I can also be open-minded enough that my opinion of him in no way increases nor decreases my respect for those who share his opnions ... I live by a code of to each their own ... which is (by his own proclamations) a level of acceptance and understanding which he simply has no concept of.

He came to this board with a lack of respect for anyone or anything else other than his own opinion ... and he's consistent, if nothing else, because he still presents as incomprehensibly full of himself.

The question, "And can we EVER have a honest discussion with Black women about this issue?" was an exercise in bs because he has proceeded only in the condemnation of those who have "honestly" tried to discussed this issue in a manner that was contrary to his own. His initial title question was, in fact, an opening commentary on his own self-serving opinion on a massive group of Black woman and was not meant to actually initiate commentary or discussion.

Which is business as usually for "Brotha" Shango67. Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Personally, I think choosing/dating/marrying a partner based on hair texture is a little shallow. Roll Eyes

It also amazes me that people who have trouble with relaxed or straighten hair are never volunteers to do the daily/weekly/monthly maintenance and styling of another person's natural hair. Eek If I've got a man that is going to wake up every morning and maintain my (hair)do, then I would probably wear it in whatever style he wants it in!!


I agree.

When women used to get on me about my hair, I used to let them have a go.

The ultimate silencer.

I'm natural, but I know it would be easier for me just to perm it, loc it, or chop it. So I can't diss on women who do any of the above.

My hair isn't some political statement and I won't assume theirs is.

But even if it were, my choice is my choice and their choice is theirs.

I'm not going to stick my nose in it.

I wouldn't avoid a man because he perms his hair.

I might even ask him for hair tips. Razz
Well, I'd like to say that I do have my hair permed, and it has had to battle with a hot comb time and time again. But... well, I've never viewed my hairstyle as a vent for self-loathing or even European traits and personalities that have been absorbed into the Black community. I know that I personally am not a very confident person, and I don't really like myself... but... I've never seen straightening my hair or getting a perm as a way of dissolving these thoughts or my insecurities. To me, it's just getting my hair done... and at the moment, it's in hopes of getting my hair to grow again. (One stylist completely messed it up with a process that I knew little about... that alone should have encouraged me to decline.) It is my own personal preference and also the only thing that I know about, when it comes to having nap-free hair. I won't expand upon what I do for my own hair, but... this discussion was more of an eye-opener. With all of the other things that I ponder, hair has never really crossed my mind all too much. Attire yes, because I'm now more inspired to wear native garbs, but never hair.
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
At a recent gathering, I was chastised by several Black women for stating that I refused to consider / date / marry a sista who alters the texture of her hair. "If I wanted the aesthetics of a white woman, I would choose one." I was called all types of names. However, when I asked those same women if they would consider a brother who perms his hair, there was complete silence.

Why the contradiction? Why the hypocrisy? Why come the majority of sistas ignore the backward ass legacy of the hot comb? When will our women stand up and confront the pathology? And can we EVER have a honest discussion with Black women about this issue?


I'm wondering whether you would also refuse to date a down to earth, intelligent, strong Black women who altered to the texture of her hair to be more kinky? Some Black women are born with wavy or curly hair that doesn't grow well into a 'fro. Would going to a salon to make her hair more 'fro worthy lessen her in your eyes? Just playing devil's advocate here. I think I understand what you mean, though: I have always found this insistence upon having straight or "good" hair bewildering, and throughout most of my adolescence refuse to perm or straighten my hair to conform to some whacked out ideal. Is it the act of changing the texture itself, or the texture of choice that you find unappealing?
quote:
I'm wondering whether you would also refuse to date a down to earth, intelligent, strong Black women who altered to the texture of her hair to be more kinky?

Sure would. And just to add, if there was a billion dollar industry aimed at doing what you suggest, I would clean Ebony Rose's home and yard for free, for one year, using only my tooth brush and baking soda.
quote:
Some Black women are born with wavy or curly hair that doesn't grow well into a 'fro. Would going to a salon to make her hair more 'fro worthy lessen her in your eyes? Just playing devil's advocate here. I think I understand what you mean, though: I have always found this insistence upon having straight or "good" hair bewildering, and throughout most of my adolescence refuse to perm or straighten my hair to conform to some whacked out ideal. Is it the act of changing the texture itself, or the texture of choice that you find unappealing?

It would be refreshing to see a movement of Black women spending money to get nappy hair. I would celebrate in the street.
quote:
However, I can also be open-minded enough that my opinion of him in no way increases nor decreases my respect for those who share his opnions ... I live by a code of to each their own ... which is (by his own proclamations) a level of acceptance and understanding which he simply has no concept of.

He came to this board with a lack of respect for anyone or anything else other than his own opinion ... and he's consistent, if nothing else, because he still presents as incomprehensibly full of himself.

So Ebony... I guess that moonlight stroll we talked about is out of the question, huh? I was looking forward to making some babies with you.

Seriously....

You know this is not true. I haven't done anything here to suggest what you are saying, And until now, I haven't attacked anyone just their ideas. Your only interaction with me was in a forum that Nmag started using my thoughts from another board. I never came to this board in the manner you described. Try some honesty.

Truth be told... you are an overly emotional crotchety old bag, who holds a grudge tighter than a jew with diamonds he stole from Africa. Either your shoes are too tight or the Depends needs changing. Agree to disagree and keep it moving. Why the CONSTANT sophmoric crap? If you need something from me, I leave a key for you under the mat. Until then, STFU!
spank
We are lovely in all of our shades and hair textures. There are some dark sistas with naturals that would put Clarence and Condoleeza to shame. And there are some light women with a weave straight into the next zip code who are ON POINT. Let's move away from jumping to all sorts of conclusions before someone even opens their mouth.

Furthermore, men should really not do this. You all very rarely have even an inkling of what goes on with sista's hair. It is not just perm or natural. There are texturizers, waves, organic perms, comb-throughs, and all sorts of things in between. There are women with naturally straight hair. Qty is a brown-skinned sista who's hair naturally grows straight. You cannot just look at a woman and tell automatically what the hell is in her hair. I could take you down some aisles in Sally's Beauty Supply that would humble that ass! We can do no less than a million and one things with our hair, with chemicals, without chemicals, you name it. Fall back and observe and appreciate whatever beauty is coming your way! girl
quote:
Originally posted by Yemaya:
That's your choice if you chose to date or marry a sista with a natural. I think that comment about the aesthetics of a white woman got you in trouble. Just because a sister has a relaxer doesn't mean that that she looks white or is even trying to look white.


Here's one thing that bothers me... It seems OK to compare black men to their white counterparts... that's the basis of so many gripes about us... We supposedly don't measure up as fathers and providers... And it's Ok to compare female outcomes... Again, this is a source of a lot of gripes. Black women don't like, for example, that their chances for marriage are comparatively lower... I.e., the outcomes are unequal... not good...

What's not OK: a straight up comparison of white women and black women in any way whatsoever in which black women come out for the worse... All hell breaks loose...
Black women are disappointed in Black men, PERIOD. Not in comparison to white men since most of us do not date interracially.

quote:
What's not OK: a straight up comparison of white women and black women in any way whatsoever in which black women come out for the worse... All hell breaks loose...

Because this is usually initiated by Black men. Who have no room to talk about anything. Ever. bsm
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
Black women are disappointed in Black men, PERIOD. Not in comparison to white men since most of us do not date interracially.

quote:
What's not OK: a straight up comparison of white women and black women in any way whatsoever in which black women come out for the worse... All hell breaks loose...

Because this is usually initiated by Black men. Who have no room to talk about anything. Ever. bsm


Again, I'm single, successful, and childless... Excuse me if I feel entitled to talk about whatever I like Big Grin
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quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
It also amazes me that people who have trouble with relaxed or straighten hair are never volunteers to do the daily/weekly/monthly maintenance and styling of another person's natural hair.


Sister Ebony, it is a common misconception that natural hair is more difficult to maintain and style than chemically-treated hair. In fact, chemically-treated hair is a lot more expensive and troublesome to maintain and style than natural hair. There are also health risks associated with chemical treatments. When chemically treating the hair, both you and your stylist expose yourselves to inhaling hazardous chemicals during the chemical treatment process. Moreover, in addition to consistent abuse from heating equipment and curling irons, chemically-straightened requires restraightening and conditioning treatment every 4 to 6 six weeks (every 2 to 3 weeks if you are using a weave or extension, or if highlighting or coloring). The excessive costs and the extremely high-maintenance regime associated with this style are the two main reasons why I abandoned straightening many years ago.
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Rowe ...

Yes, I can definitely see how natural hair would be easier to maintain than chemically-enhanced hair. I really didn't give a complete statement in what you quoted. My full thought was that generally men that have a problem with the way a woman styles her hair doesn't offer any help with maintaining it for her period ... whether natural nor straight!

But, I certainly do appreciate your experienced perspective. Smile
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quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
Why come the majority of sistas ignore the backward ass legacy of the hot comb? When will our women stand up and confront the pathology? And can we EVER have a honest discussion with Black women about this issue?


Brother, why do you wear a suit and tie everyday to work? Probably because a suit and tie is attire that is expected to be seen in conservative work environments. Just as sisters cannot even begin to know what it is truly like to exist in a racist and anti-African male society, brothers cannot possibly understand what it is like to be bombarded with images of a standard of beauty that is so drastically different from your own. Though sisters may not be able to articulate their fear of not being accepted, it's the number one reason why most Black women chemically treat their hair. A woman's hair is very important to her, and therefore, it takes an incredible amount of courage for a woman to make a choice to wear her hair in a way that she knows most people would not approve. A LOT of courage. So give us gals a break!

As for your other question about whether I would be in seen with a man who chemcially straightens his hair, I would not. Though I may understand why some women and men chemcially straighten their hair, I don't approve of this process, and so I'm not interested in being in an intimate relationship with someone who does.
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
But, I certainly do appreciate your experienced perspective. Smile


My pleasure sister. I truly enjoyed my experience as a natural hair care stylist. It is a very emotional time for women to make this transition. Interesting enough, the major concern for most of our clients who were making a transition from chemical straightening to wearing their natural (people we called "newbies," was Is my husband going to like it?. The women were always concerned about whether or not their husbands or boyfriends would like their hair natural. I remember one woman who came to our shop and she was really emotional about making the change that she kept crying. Because we had to cut out all the perm and dead ends from the hair, she was really afraid of no longer looking attractive and desirable to her husband. A lot of men in this culture closely associate long flowing hair with a woman's beauty.
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
So Ebony... I guess that moonlight stroll we talked about is out of the question, huh? I was looking forward to making some babies with you.

Seriously....

You know this is not true. I haven't done anything here to suggest what you are saying, And until now, I haven't attacked anyone just their ideas. Your only interaction with me was in a forum that Nmag started using my thoughts from another board. I never came to this board in the manner you described. Try some honesty.

Truth be told... you are an overly emotional crotchety old bag, who holds a grudge tighter than a jew with diamonds he stole from Africa. Either your shoes are too tight or the Depends needs changing. Agree to disagree and keep it moving. Why the CONSTANT sophmoric crap? If you need something from me, I leave a key for you under the mat. Until then, STFU!
spank


Shango67, my brotha ...

First let me say that I find it absolutely heartwarming the way you choose to address Black women with your kind and uplifting words. Definitely befitting of the Black King you hallucinate yourself to be, wouldn't you say? Confused

Secondly ... and most definitely lastly ...

I have only one other deeply sincere truth to share with you from a place of total honesty from deep within myself. The choice of whether or not to believe me is, of course, all yours ...

But the only thing that I need from you, sir, is for you to kiss the raw inside part of my NATURALLY black ass .... until it makes your sorry, minutely-interesting, and completely loathsome heart unmeasureably happy!

The thought of you contaminating the gene pool of the real Black man makes me wanna

And I do mean that sincerely. hat
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quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
But the only thing that I need from you, sir, is for you to kiss the raw inside part of my NATURALLY black ass .... until it makes your sorry, minutely-interesting, and completely loathsome heart unmeasureably happy!


Sister, I think doing this may be more pleasurable for you than for him. You're not slick Ebony, we know you're trying to get your freak on at the expense of his punishment. nono Kiss the raw, inside part, of your butt??? Ooh girl, you so nasty.
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quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

But the only thing that I need from you, sir, is for you to kiss the raw inside part of my NATURALLY black ass .... until it makes your sorry, minutely-interesting, and completely loathsome heart unmeasureably happy!

The thought of you contaminating the gene pool of the real Black man makes me wanna

And I do mean that sincerely. hat



ek
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Sister, I think doing this may be more pleasurable for you than for him. You're not slick Ebony, we know you're trying to get your freak on at the expense of his punishment. nono Kiss the raw, inside part, of your butt??? Ooh girl, you so nasty.


Well, he did ask me if there was anything I might need ... Eek Razz
quote:
Brother, why do you wear a suit and tie everyday to work? Probably because a suit and tie is attire that is expected to be seen in conservative work environments. Just as sisters cannot even begin to know what it is truly like to exist in a racist and anti-African male society, brothers cannot possibly understand what it is like to be bombarded with images of a standard of beauty that is so drastically different from your own. Though sisters may not be able to articulate their fear of not being accepted, it's the number one reason why most Black women chemically treat their hair. A woman's hair is very important to her, and therefore, it takes an incredible amount of courage for a woman to make a choice to wear her hair in a way that she knows most people would not approve. A LOT of courage. So give us gals a break!

No. I can't let this slide.

1) A dress code to work is altogether different from altering your hair. Following codified rules of dress in the workplace is incongruent to supporting a pathological legacy of altering your hair to fit in. Besides, I take my suit and tie off after work. And also, I have been known to wear African clothing to work (not the pants - just the tops).

2) Brothers live in amerikkkan society with the same issues of beauty as our women - but rebel. Therefore, you don't see Black men spending money to look like Tom Cruise, Brad Pitt, or Justin Timberlake (I'll throw in Sean Connery so the old hag - Ebony Rose - can relate to someone in her age bracket). There was a time in our history when Black men engaged in the practice of frying their hair. Why did we leave the practice of hair straightening but our sisters did not? I'll tell you... Too much Desperate Housewives, Sex and the City, and way too many eurocentric fashion magazines. STOP TAKING CUES FROM WHITE CHICKS!

3) No breaks for the gals! Own up to the psychopathology and poor mental state that forces you to fuck up your head. Correct the mistake AND STOP BLAMING BLACK MEN FOR THE REASON AS TO WHY YOU ENGAGE IN SUCH FOOLISHNESS. We are gonna take you in your natural state. And the ones who overlook you, were already gone.

And while your at it...PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE

TAKE OF THE DAMN BARBIE DOLL MAKE-UP. Rosey Cheeks, Blush, Foundation, Mascara, Eye Shadow, Powder... YOU HAVE GOT TO BE JOKING! You go to bed at night looking like comedy and wake up in the morning with the face of tragedy. It is a sickness. Do you know how impossible it is to get the white girls make up off the pillow case? All you beautiful queens need is some shea butter, lip balm, a proper diet and your skin will be fine. Iffn you stay away from the bacon, pork grinds, christmas ham, fatback and jowl, you wouldn't need snowflake's make up to cover up the inevitable skin eruptions.
quote:
Here's one thing that bothers me... It seems OK to compare black men to their white counterparts... that's the basis of so many gripes about us... We supposedly don't measure up as fathers and providers... And it's Ok to compare female outcomes... Again, this is a source of a lot of gripes. Black women don't like, for example, that their chances for marriage are comparatively lower... I.e., the outcomes are unequal... not good...

What's not OK: a straight up comparison of white women and black women in any way whatsoever in which black women come out for the worse... All hell breaks loose...

yeah
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:

Furthermore, men should really not do this. You all very rarely have even an inkling of what goes on with sista's hair. It is not just perm or natural. There are texturizers, waves, organic perms, comb-throughs, and all sorts of things in between. There are women with naturally straight hair. Qty is a brown-skinned sista who's hair naturally grows straight. You cannot just look at a woman and tell automatically what the hell is in her hair. I could take you down some aisles in Sally's Beauty Supply that would humble that ass! We can do no less than a million and one things with our hair, with chemicals, without chemicals, you name it. Fall back and observe and appreciate whatever beauty is coming your way! girl




Im speechless, after reading this thread!!

Shango67.......you really should do your reseach, prior to making these types of comments.



Frenchy, this was on point.

This is yet another way to attack sistas.....and im tired of it. We better start realizing that NOT all black women have the same texture hair........and i be damned if this will give me another complex.......concerning my skin color, features or hair.

Im tired of trying to fit in......gimmie a break!!

Everyone has preferences........but if a black man is going to define who i am as a person, because of my hair texture, or the way i wear my hair.........then its his loss.



"It would be refreshing to see a movement of Black women spending money to get nappy hair. I would celebrate in the street."
-Shango67

Why in the hell, would you want a sista to put any type of chemicals in her hair?
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
A dress code to work is altogether different from altering your hair. Following codified rules of dress in the workplace is incongruent to supporting a pathological legacy of altering your hair to fit in.


I disagree. Wearing the so-called "monkey suit" to work requires the same degree of conformity to cultural norms and standards as wearing the hair straightened. Even White women with course and frizzy hair are inclined to have their hair straightened or tied back in a bun for a more conservative appearance. You might recall Me'shell N'degeochello wrote a song about this topic called "Souls on Ice" which talks about Black men who conform to a "Brooks Brother" suit standard to get a job in corporate America.

quote:
Besides, I take my suit and tie off after work. And also, I have been known to wear African clothing to work (not the pants - just the tops).


That is impressive, and I'm sure that you look very handsome sporting these tops. But unfortunately, most men consistently wear a suit and tie to work. Wearing African clothing, even partially, is not the norm.

quote:
Brothers live in amerikkkan society with the same issues of beauty as our women - but rebel.


Usually, those that "rebel" are self-employed, underemployed, or jobless. The majority of Black men, however, who are employed in conservative work environments adhere to cultural norms by keeping their hair closely cut to the scalp. They never allow their hair to grow out. This decision is also an act of conformity.

quote:
TAKE OF THE DAMN BARBIE DOLL MAKE-UP. Rosey Cheeks, Blush, Foundation, Mascara, Eye Shadow, Powder... YOU HAVE GOT TO BE JOKING! You go to bed at night looking like comedy and wake up in the morning with the face of tragedy. It is a sickness. Do you know how impossible it is to get the white girls make up off the pillow case? All you beautiful queens need is some shea butter, lip balm, a proper diet and your skin will be fine.


Now, you are intentionally being disrespectful, which is unnecessary and also disappointing. Even "African queens" of the past adorned themselves by wearing wigs, makeup, perfumes, jewelry, etc. to meet a cultural aesthetic. You might even be shocked to learn that African men, representing certain tribes in Africa adorn themselves with makeup during mating rituals to make themselves more attractive to young females. So let's not be ignorant. If you have no appreciation for adornment and prefer women who come out of the house looking like the walking dead (e.g., wearing no makeup, no attention given to the hair, no interesting appearance whatsoever, "Plain Janes", etc.), then simply admit to this. But don't belittle women (and men) who do put forth the effort to beautify themselves.

And by the way, there is a minor correlation between acne and wearing makeup. Acne is really a hereditary skin disorder and is the result of overacting sebaceous glands (secreting oil glands), poor diet, and lack of exercise. The advantage to having oily skin, however, is that people with oily skin will look younger for a longer period of time than their dry-skinned counterparts. But even men, who never wear makeup suffer from acne.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
I disagree. Wearing a "monkey suit" to work requires the same sense of conformity to cultural norms and standards as wearing the hair straightened. Even White women with course and frizzy hair are inclined to have their hair straightened or tied back in a bun for a more conservative look. You might remember Me'shell N'degeochello wrote a song about this topic called "Souls on Ice" which talks about Black men who conform to a "Brooks Brother" suit standard to get a job in corporate America.


quote:
Unfortunately those that "rebel" are usually self-employed, underemployed, and/or jobless. The majority of Black men, however, who are employed in conservative work environments adhere to cultural norms by keeping their hair closely cut to the scalp. They never allow their hair to grow out. This decision is also an act of conformity.

This is wonderful... Roll Eyes Now we've swung in the exact opposite direction.

Sister Rowe, please explain how wearing a suit and tie and a closely cropped hair cut is detrimental in any way, to Black men or to the Black community.

While you're pondering that, I'll tell you what I think is detrimental...

I think it's ridiculous for people like you and Shango to go around questioning other people's Blackness based such superficial evidence of "conformity". Conformity is not a bad thing... so long as it's a logical, rational choice designed to bring one closer to their goals. I find your and Shango's position on this issue to be outrageously snobish and unnecessarily divisive. Perhaps you should save your judgements for when your people do something that actually hurts you.
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:

Furthermore, men should really not do this. You all very rarely have even an inkling of what goes on with sista's hair. It is not just perm or natural. There are texturizers, waves, organic perms, comb-throughs, and all sorts of things in between. There are women with naturally straight hair. Qty is a brown-skinned sista who's hair naturally grows straight. You cannot just look at a woman and tell automatically what the hell is in her hair. I could take you down some aisles in Sally's Beauty Supply that would humble that ass! We can do no less than a million and one things with our hair, with chemicals, without chemicals, you name it. Fall back and observe and appreciate whatever beauty is coming your way! girl




Im speechless, after reading this thread!!

Shango67.......you really should do your reseach, prior to making these types of comments.



Frenchy, this was on point.

This is yet another way to attack sistas.....and im tired of it. We better start realizing that NOT all black women have the same texture hair........and i be damned if this will give me another complex.......concerning my skin color, features or hair.

Im tired of trying to fit in......gimmie a break!!

Everyone has preferences........but if a black man is going to define who i am as a person, because of my hair texture, or the way i wear my hair.........then its his loss.



"It would be refreshing to see a movement of Black women spending money to get nappy hair. I would celebrate in the street."
-Shango67

Why in the hell, would you want a sista to put any type of chemicals in her hair?

Why ask me a question when my answer will be deemed unworthy.

And newsflash sis... AS A BLACK MAN I HAVE THE RIGHT, OBLIGATION, AND DUTY TO CONTRIBUTE TO ANY DISCUSSION CONCERNING THE DIRECTION OF BLACK WOMEN. Just as sistas, and all of you make sure to contribute to the body of heavy duty Black male bashing, have the right, duty, and obligation to check us when we are bugging out. This is a concept that seems to be wasted on folks raised on the wisdom of Mary J. Blige and Lil Kim.
quote:
Sister Rowe, please explain how wearing a suit and tie and a closely cropped hair cut is detrimental in any way, to Black men or to the Black community.


Brother Viking, I never said wearing a suit and keeping the hair cut is detrimental to anyone. Unlike some other folks, I think a certain degree of conformity is necessary, and not only necessary, but unavoidable. My only interest in this discussion is to help Brother Shango to see the relationship between how Black women and Black men conform to Western codes of dress. Both of us are existing in this place and both of us are subjected to European standards of appearance. What I can't stand is when people who have very little appreciation for image impose their old-fashioned, fudamentalist views of image on those of us that do. Just because you don't give a damn about the way you look or the clothes that you wear does not give you a license to put down folks that do. I may not wear my hair chemically-straightened, but I am not going to ignorantly disrespect women that do. Constructive and informed criticism is tolerable, but outright disrespect, no. That kind of behavior is unacceptable and I think either this discussion needs to be reported or someone needs to reveiw AA.org's code of conduct.
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quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
And newsflash sis... AS A BLACK MAN I HAVE THE RIGHT, OBLIGATION, AND DUTY TO CONTRIBUTE TO ANY DISCUSSION CONCERNING THE DIRECTION OF BLACK WOMEN. Just as sistas, and all of you make sure to contribute to the body of heavy duty Black male bashing, have the right, duty, and obligation to check us when we are bugging out. This is a concept that seems to be wasted on folks raised on the wisdom of Mary J. Blige and Lil Kim.


Brother, simply because others may bring themselves down to a lowly state of behavior does not mean that you have to go down with them. You can hold yourself up to a higher standard. That is a little thing that we like to call MATURITY. Behaving and talking like a fool just because others are behaving and talking like fools shows a poor grade of character. For some reason, I thought that you knew better and I am disappointed. Frown
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Sister Rowe, please explain how wearing a suit and tie and a closely cropped hair cut is detrimental in any way, to Black men or to the Black community.


Brother Viking, I never said wearing a suit and keeping the hair cut is detrimental to anyone. Unlike some other folks, I think a certain degree of conformity is necessary, and not only necessary, but unavoidable. My only interest in this discussion is to help Brother Shango to see the relationship between how Black women and Black men conform to Western codes of dress. Both of us are existing in this place and both of us are subjected to European standards of appearance. What I can't stand is when people who have very little appreciation for image impose their old-fashioned, fudamentalist views of image on those that do. Just because you don't give a damn about the way you look or the clothes that you wear does not give you a license to put down folks that do. I may not wear my hair chemically-straightened, but I am not going to ignorantly disrespect women that do. That kind of behavior is unacceptable and I think either this discussion needs to be reported or someone needs to reveiw AA.org's code of conduct.

Okay... I misunderstood your previous statements. My apologies, Sister. hat
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
Okay... I misunderstood your previous statements. My apologies, Sister. hat


No problem! I don't wear my hair straightened, but as a former stylist, I understand why some women want this style. Black people do not live in an isolated, boxed-in world. I do realize this you know.
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:

And newsflash sis... AS A BLACK MAN I HAVE THE RIGHT, OBLIGATION, AND DUTY TO CONTRIBUTE TO ANY DISCUSSION CONCERNING THE DIRECTION OF BLACK WOMEN. Just as sistas, and all of you make sure to contribute to the body of heavy duty Black male bashing, have the right, duty, and obligation to check us when we are bugging out. This is a concept that seems to be wasted on folks raised on the wisdom of Mary J. Blige and Lil Kim.




I disagree.........just because youre a black man, doesnt justify your authority over 'our' (black womens) direction.

Thats reserved for black men that are experienced and wise enough to lead, not only black women in the community.......but also black men.


Your comment concerning how "folks" were raised........is lame.

.........And so is your point of view, concerning this subject.

I really thought you were smarter than this.
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
I disagree.........just because youre a black man, doesnt justify your authority over 'our' (black womens) direction.

Thats reserved for black men that are experienced and wise enough to lead, not only black women in the community.......but also black men.


Your comment concerning how "folks" were raised........is lame.

.........And so is your point of view, concerning this subject.

I really thought you were smarter than this.


Sister, I'm disappointed too. I thought this 'Shango' brother was more put together than this. Him and Sister Ebony had some words, but that's no reason to come in here making inflammatory and disrespectful comments about women's image. That is not right to me. I think something is going to have to be done.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
I disagree.........just because youre a black man, doesnt justify your authority over 'our' (black womens) direction.

Thats reserved for black men that are experienced and wise enough to lead, not only black women in the community.......but also black men.


Your comment concerning how "folks" were raised........is lame.

.........And so is your point of view, concerning this subject.

I really thought you were smarter than this.


Sister, I'm disappointed too. I thought this 'Shango' brother was more put together. Him and Sister Ebony had some words, but that's no reason to come in here making inflammatory and disrespectful comments about women's image. That is not right to me. I think something is going to have to be done.


I can understand his heart felt opinion.......when its given as such. But this was a forum directly hitting and tearing down the beauty of black women.

We fight this everyday.....and it hurts.

I just needed him to understand that.
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
I can understand his heart felt opinion.......when its given as such. But this was a forum directly hitting and tearing down the beauty of black women.

We fight this everyday.....and it hurts.

I just needed him to understand that.


It's ok sister because we are going to pull through this. Black people, sometimes we build each up and we tear each other down. But I think we should always maintain at least some level of respect. And I'm not excusing some of the behaviors of our sisters, but brothers need to understand that there are a lot politics involved when it comes to a Black woman's hair. Men can get away with not broadcasting their political views by keeping the hair cut low, but generally women have only two options: let the hair grow natural or get a perm. Unfortunately, the former will always be viewed as a "political statement." Never does it dawn on people that some women wear their hair natural because it is healthier to do so or the hair is thin and susceptible to breakage.

Even today, as I wear my hair natural, I still get ignorant people coming up to me to ask "Are you a Rastafarian?" or "Are you a 'radical' Muslim?" or "Do you hate White people?" JUST BECAUSE MY HAIR IS NATURAL! Understandably, some women just don't want to have to deal with all of this, all of the questions, all of the constant harrassment, all of the constant touching on your hair, and the childish whispers behind your back. IT IS A LOT TO DEAL WITH.
quote:
Correct the mistake AND STOP BLAMING BLACK MEN FOR THE REASON AS TO WHY YOU ENGAGE IN SUCH FOOLISHNESS

nono
Stop it...the brothers are not that enlightened.

The "white standard" of beauty that we are constantly subjected to and bombarded with does not ONLY affect the mentality of our women.

Like one of the women shared women do these things to please men. They wear clothing, makeup, and hairstyles to get our attention as well and please us

I have a friend now who will not admit it but is obsessed with the white standard of beauty. If a sister has her hair in a natural state she is automatically "ugly" or her hair is "messed up" in his opinion. And his opinion is that of many black men.

So before we jump on the sisters and preach to them about them being brainwashed by the white man blah blah blah...how about preaching to the brothers...cause they need it just as bad
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
A dress code to work is altogether different from altering your hair. Following codified rules of dress in the workplace is incongruent to supporting a pathological legacy of altering your hair to fit in.


I disagree. Wearing a "monkey suit" to work requires the same degree of conformity to cultural norms and standards as wearing the hair straightened. Even White women with course and frizzy hair are inclined to have their hair straightened or tied back in a bun for a more conservative look. You might recall Me'shell N'degeochello wrote a song about this topic called "Souls on Ice" which talks about Black men who conform to a "Brooks Brother" suit standard to get a job in corporate America.

quote:
Besides, I take my suit and tie off after work. And also, I have been known to wear African clothing to work (not the pants - just the tops).


That is impressive and I'm sure you look very handsome, but unfortunately, most men consistently wear a suit and tie to work. Wearing African clothing, even partially is not the norm.

quote:
Brothers live in amerikkkan society with the same issues of beauty as our women - but rebel.


Usually, those that "rebel" are self-employed, underemployed, or jobless. The majority of Black men, however, who are employed in conservative work environments adhere to cultural norms by keeping their hair closely cut to the scalp. They never allow their hair to grow out. This decision is also an act of conformity.

quote:
TAKE OF THE DAMN BARBIE DOLL MAKE-UP. Rosey Cheeks, Blush, Foundation, Mascara, Eye Shadow, Powder... YOU HAVE GOT TO BE JOKING! You go to bed at night looking like comedy and wake up in the morning with the face of tragedy. It is a sickness. Do you know how impossible it is to get the white girls make up off the pillow case? All you beautiful queens need is some shea butter, lip balm, a proper diet and your skin will be fine.


Now, you are intentionally being disrespectful, which is unnecessary and also disappointing. Even "African queens" of the past adorned themselves by wearing wigs, makeup, perfumes, jewelry, etc. to meet a cultural aesthetic. You might even be shocked to learn that African men, representing certain tribes in Africa adorn themselves with makeup during mating rituals to make themselves more attractive to young females. So let's not be ignorant. If you have no appreciation for adornment and prefer women who come out of the house looking like the walking dead (e.g., wearing no makeup, no attention given to the hair, no interesting appearance whatsoever, "Plain Janes", etc.), then simply admit to this. But don't belittle women and men who do put forth the effort to beautify themselves.

And by the way, there is a minor correlation between acne and wearing makeup. Acne is really a hereditary skin disorder and is the result of overacting sebaceous glands (secreting oil glands), poor diet, and lack of exercise. The advantage to having oily skin, however, is that people with oily skin will look younger for a longer period of time than their dry-skinned counterparts. But even men, who never wear makeup suffer from acne.

Stop it already. You can't trick me with the "men and women from African tribes" skit. I don't refer to any African society as a "tribe." But, as an African centered Pan African who knows better and lived and organized in Africa, I am well aquainted with the traditions of men and women in Akebulan (Kush, Kemet, and Nubia).

What we do to ourselves in the country is NOT under the influence of Africa, but more because of the seasoning provided by white supremacy... attacking our immutable characteristics... attacking our hair with harsh chemicals not fit for human use... carving away at the nose... thining the lips... reducing the hips... color contacts not to see but to look "exotic" ... are all self loathing behaviors UNRELATED to Africa. In second thought, the behaviors are related to Africa in the sense that Black folks spend time trying to get away from the continent in name, spirit, and physicality. Black women in amerikkka do not make themselves up from an African centered standpoint and you know it.

------

I do not work in a corporate environment and I don't ever intend to. However, we disagree on the monkey suit issue. Since I don't accept the premise of your arguement, there is not need to continue looking at the analogy.

By the way, sistas wear the same MONKEY SUIT, but in the corporate environment they must smile and wear the top two buttons of the blouse open enough so John Q. Cracker can get a good look. And along with the bone straight perm and blond highlights, you are certainly going to go places me and my monkey suit can only enter if we are hand delivering the mail.
quote:
That kind of behavior is unacceptable and I think either this discussion needs to be reported or someone needs to reveiw AA.org's code of conduct.

C E N S O R S H I P!!!!

Are you kidding? I am being disrespectful (whatever that means) becuase I challenge Black women to discover their REAL beauty and stop running around trying to fit the image of white trash?????

Pure Comedy.

How mighty white of you.
quote:
I disagree.........just because youre a black man, doesnt justify your authority over 'our' (black womens) direction.

WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT AUTHORITY OVER BLACK WOMEN??? I WAS CLEARLY SPEAKING IN TERMS OF PARTNERSHIP.

I wrote

"AS A BLACK MAN I HAVE THE RIGHT, OBLIGATION, AND DUTY TO CONTRIBUTE TO ANY DISCUSSION CONCERNING THE DIRECTION OF BLACK WOMEN. Just as sistas, and all of you make sure to contribute to the body of heavy duty Black male bashing, have the right, duty, and obligation to check us when we are bugging out."

Where does it say CONTROL or HOLD AUTHORITY OVER???????
quote:
Conformity is not a bad thing... so long as it's a logical, rational choice designed to bring one closer to their goals. I find your and Shango's position on this issue to be outrageously snobish and unnecessarily divisive

To me, this is not an issue of conformity. And even if it was, does it seem rational and logical to apply a hot iron to your head, so you can get a job?

In the school where I work, I see little sistas as young as 6 years old with SCARS on their head. BURNS from either the hot comb or areas where the chemical chipped away at the skin. DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO ANYONE? Young girls with chemical alopecia is a CRIME!!!!! What JOB does an 8 year old have where she should be exposed to such trauma to her scalp???? It should offend your sensibilities.
quote:
"It would be refreshing to see a movement of Black women spending money to get nappy hair. I would celebrate in the street."
-Shango67

Why in the hell, would you want a sista to put any type of chemicals in her hair?



You never responded to this........especially since youre soooo concerned with women that apply chemicals to the hair.
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
quote:
"It would be refreshing to see a movement of Black women spending money to get nappy hair. I would celebrate in the street."
-Shango67

Why in the hell, would you want a sista to put any type of chemicals in her hair?



You never responded to this........especially since youre soooo concerned with women that apply chemicals to the hair.

I responded.

page 3
Wow! Four pages on this? Confused

Just chalk it up as preference. Guess we all play arm-chair psychologist about one thing or another...

Shango, I have a couple of questions (asked in sincerity): Do you consider yourself 100 percent of European conditioning? If not, are you still worthy of being in a relationship?

Assuming that your theory is correct (straightened hair = Euro-derived psychosis), aren't you attempting to treat the symptom instead of the disease? If the issue is conditioning (pun intended), isn't the better strategy changing the mindset so that the behaviors of that mindset go away?
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Sister, I'm disappointed too. I thought this 'Shango' brother was more put together than this. Him and Sister Ebony had some words, but that's no reason to come in here making inflammatory and disrespectful comments about women's image. That is not right to me. I think something is going to have to be done.


As far as I'm concerned, Shango67 has never earned any respect ... and he gets none here. "Smarter than that"? Only in his overblown imagination.

And unlike my more dignified and gracious sisters here on the board (whom hopefully I will learn to be like when I grow up! Big Grin), I have no problem slithering down into the bowels of hell where and dealing with a gutter rat on his level, when and where necessary! Unfortunately, this thread was such a time.

Right now, I'm wearing my hair in braids, individuals, no extentions or weave. So, for the purposes of this conversation, I happen to be one of those "natural" women that he claims to hold in such high regard!! However, I'm liable to go out next month and do something completely different with it ... as would be my choice and preference. And, in fact, I would do it more to spite the likes of Shango67, than I would for adhereing to some European-style of beauty.

But, the bottom line is, I will not sit passively by while he comes to this board and disses Black women on any subject, period. His self-righteous arrogance deems him unworthy to do so. And there are too many other men on this board who don't seem to have a problem with being able to show us some respect ... so that makes him and exception, not the rule, and by me, he will be treated as such!

So, therefore, Shango67, whenever you happen to be feeling frogish go ahead and leap!! Because my old crochety ass is still young enough to reach into my Depends and pull out a can of Whupass with your name on it!!

And you call yourself a (Black) man? Only in the best of your dreams. Roll Eyes
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
Wow! Four pages on this? Confused

Just chalk it up as preference. Guess we all play arm-chair psychologist about one thing or another...

Shango, I have a couple of questions (asked in sincerity): Do you consider yourself 100 percent of European conditioning? If not, are you still worthy of being in a relationship?

Assuming that your theory is correct (straightened hair = Euro-derived psychosis), aren't you attempting to treat the symptom instead of the disease? If the issue is conditioning (pun intended), isn't the better strategy changing the mindset so that the behaviors of that mindset go away?

I don't understand the european conditioning question.

And I am addressing the symptoms as well as the disease.
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
2) Brothers live in amerikkkan society with the same issues of beauty as our women - but rebel. Therefore, you don't see Black men spending money to look like Tom Cruise, Brad Pitt, or Justin Timberlake (I'll throw in Sean Connery so the old hag - Ebony Rose - can relate to someone in her age bracket). There was a time in our history when Black men engaged in the practice of frying their hair. Why did we leave the practice of hair straightening but our sisters did not? I'll tell you... Too much Desperate Housewives, Sex and the City, and way too many eurocentric fashion magazines. STOP TAKING CUES FROM WHITE CHICKS!


Get the hell out of here! lol THE. ONLY. reason there aren't more men with perms is because women don't find that attractive anymore. If we suddenly decided that we all wanted men with Al Sharpton's do, stock in Dark N Lovely would shoot straight past Berkshire Hathaway. 99.99999% of you all would be fried, dyed and laid to the side within the damn week. Come off it. As if Black men are so much more evolved than Black women.

quote:
3) No breaks for the gals! Own up to the psychopathology and poor mental state that forces you to fuck up your head. Correct the mistake AND STOP BLAMING BLACK MEN FOR THE REASON AS TO WHY YOU ENGAGE IN SUCH FOOLISHNESS. We are gonna take you in your natural state. And the ones who overlook you, were already gone.


You may want to clear that with your bretheren. Have a look around and see the kind of women they practically cyber-jizz over with regularity. RadioRaheem can point you in the right direction. It aint no natural sista!! Big Grin

quote:
AS A BLACK MAN I HAVE THE RIGHT, OBLIGATION, AND DUTY TO CONTRIBUTE TO ANY DISCUSSION CONCERNING THE DIRECTION OF BLACK WOMEN. Just as sistas, and all of you make sure to contribute to the body of heavy duty Black male bashing, have the right, duty, and obligation to check us when we are bugging out.


Consider yourself and your woman-bashing argument checked.

quote:
This is a concept that seems to be wasted on folks raised on the wisdom of Mary J. Blige and Lil Kim.


Those braids must be too tight. Wink Check the BET Boards for those folks.

quote:
But this was a forum directly hitting and tearing down the beauty of black women.

We fight this everyday.....and it hurts.

That is what men do. Like a fulltime job. Daddy is somewhere with his thumb up his ass. The woman is the only one left around for him to lash out at.

quote:
I have no problem slithering down into the bowels of hell where and dealing with a gutter rat on his level, when and where necessary!

LOL! Ebony you got your card back!!! laugh

Shango, the hairline can also be destroyed by natural, braided hairstyles that are too tight. And then there are hairlines that drift back all on their own. I've seen those same "outrageous" depictions on children with no chemicals in their hair.
quote:
Brother, simply because others may bring themselves down to a lowly state of behavior does not mean that you have to go down with them. You can hold yourself up to a higher standard. That is a little thing that we like to call MATURITY. Behaving and talking like a fool just because others are behaving and talking like fools shows a poor grade of character. For some reason, I thought that you knew better and I am disappointed

But yet you chastise the BROTHER.

Rowe,

Maybe we be real cool iffn I got to head scratching, and bowing and scraping for the purpose of not offending the sisterhood. I don't slide step for anyone... including Black women. Page after page on this blog you find sisters holding brothers feet to the fire for everything from destroying the Black community to being deadbeat dads. When it comes to Black men, the majority of you publish nothing but Alice Walkerisms. This site is littered with "woe with me colored girl manuscripts" with the central theme starring the Black man as the lazy and shiftless boogie man.

The question remains...

Should five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten year old girls have burn marks around the edges of their forehead for the purpose of having STRAIGHT hair? Should they have burned EARS and should those EARS be bathed in Vasoline because mom slipped up with the hot comb? Should our young Black girls be showing signs of tension and chemical alopecia for the purpose of straight hair at ages 30 years before natural hair loss occurs?
quote:
Shango, the hairline can also be destroyed by natural, braided hairstyles that are too tight. And then there are hairlines that drift back all on their own. I've seen those same "outrageous" depictions on children with no chemicals in their hair.

ARE YOU KIDDING?

First... traction and chemical alopecia looks the same - just could not find the pictures in the medical journals I referenced.

Second... the hair loss is OFTEN life long in many cases. And besides, how do you explain to a young girl that her hairline "will drift back" on its own. That is INSANITY and downright mean.

Third... Yes, hair loss does happen to children, in rare cases, from fungus, disease, malnutrition and what not. And? Does that make it better. "Don't worry baby. We will tell them it is ringworm. I'll buy you some hats until the hair grows back."

WOW

Those pictures should shock the conscience, and at the very least, spark some type of thought.
quote:
Sodium Hydroxide is the strongest type of principal chemical used in some chemical relaxers because it provides the most long lasting and dramatic effects. However, this same sodium hydroxide is found in drain cleaners which well demonstrates the strength of this chemical. It is what is used in products that are referred to as "lye" relaxers. The strength varies from a ph factor of 10 to 14. With higher ph, the faster the straightening solution will take hold, but the more potential the damage.

Guanidine Hydroxide is the other common option of relaxer chemical used today. This is what is referred to as "no-lye" relaxers. This label can be misleading to some consumers. It does not imply that there aren't any strong chemicals used or that the chemicals used are somehow less potentially damaging. Some have mistakenly thought that with "no-lye" relaxers there are less steps and all the worry of chemical hair straightening is removed. Although this type of chemical hair relaxer can be less damaging than its counterpart, the hair and scalp should be in top condition before attempting treatment, and this type also requires special care when applied.


http://www.skinbiology.com/truthabouthairrelaxers.html
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
The question remains...

Should five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten year old girls have burn marks around the edges of their forehead for the purpose of having STRAIGHT hair? Should they have burned EARS and should those EARS be bathed in Vasoline because mom slipped up with the hot comb? Should our young Black girls be showing signs of tension and chemical alopecia for the purpose of straight hair at ages 30 years before natural hair loss occurs?

Thank you, Whitney. I didn't know it was all for the children. Your ass certainly didn't start out with any concern for the children. Too busy running your mouth about snowflake makeup, etc. And you certainly weren't thinking about the children when you started this topic about Black men and perms. Little girls didn't come into the picture until Page 3.

Please re-read what I wrote. Hairlines change as we get older and depending on the style we wear our hair (both MEN AND WOMEN), not always as the result of chemical procedures (hence "drift back on thier own"). Furthermore, you are talking about chemical procedures that have gone wrong, that were applied improperly. That IS NOT the norm! You cannot use the exception to the rule as the entire basis of your argument. That's nonsensical.

Furthermore, you are not dropping anything new on women. Like I said, we are quite afmiliar with our hair and all of the different ways it can be styled, handled, altered, destroyed, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
quote:
Sodium Hydroxide is the strongest type of principal chemical used in some chemical relaxers because it provides the most long lasting and dramatic effects. However, this same sodium hydroxide is found in drain cleaners which well demonstrates the strength of this chemical. It is what is used in products that are referred to as "lye" relaxers. The strength varies from a ph factor of 10 to 14. With higher ph, the faster the straightening solution will take hold, but the more potential the damage.

Guanidine Hydroxide is the other common option of relaxer chemical used today. This is what is referred to as "no-lye" relaxers. This label can be misleading to some consumers. It does not imply that there aren't any strong chemicals used or that the chemicals used are somehow less potentially damaging. Some have mistakenly thought that with "no-lye" relaxers there are less steps and all the worry of chemical hair straightening is removed. Although this type of chemical hair relaxer can be less damaging than its counterpart, the hair and scalp should be in top condition before attempting treatment, and this type also requires special care when applied.


http://www.skinbiology.com/truthabouthairrelaxers.html


As has been pointed out to you previously, these are not our only two options for altering our hair.
quote:
That IS NOT the norm! You cannot use the exception to the rule as the entire basis of your argument. That's nonsensical.

The eventual destruction of the hair and scalp IS THE NORM. And I all the flukey science you drag out does not negate the fact that the process is dangerous, and hastens the deterioration that should happen NATURALLY.
quote:
didn't know it was all for the children. Your ass certainly didn't start out with any concern for the children. Too busy running your mouth about snowflake makeup, etc. And you certainly weren't thinking about the children when you started this topic about Black men and perms. Little girls didn't come into the picture until Page 3.

SO WHAT IF IT WAS NOT ADDRESSED until page 3?
It is still a valid point - and definitely worth reflection and investigation.

Why pass down these pathologies to our young folk?
quote:
Hair loss among Black women has reached near epidemic proportions. "I see at least five women every day with this concern," says dermatologist Susan Taylor, director of Society Hill Dermatology in Philadelphia. Different from hair breakage, in which the hair snaps off, loss occurs when "the hair comes out from the root, leaving patches with no hair, or alternatively, if there is still hair, the density is markedly less, and you can see the scalp through the hair," explains Taylor. Many Black women suffer from what doctors call traction alopecia. Tight hairstyles--braids, weaves, ponytails and cornrows--worn over long periods of time pull on the hair, causing the natural hairline to recede.

Central centrifugal cicatricial alopecia, another condition common among Black women, is characterized by circle-shaped balding at the crown toward the front of the head. Many dermatologists blame this condition on the sometimes outrageous things we do to our hair with tension, heat and chemicals. Other forms of hair loss include female pattern baldness, a hereditary condition, and alopecia areata, random quarter-size bald patches throughout the scalp, which can be caused by stress. In addition, pregnancy, certain medications, hormonal imbalances and thyroid malfunction can cause hair to fall out. The good news: Taking a proactive approach can improve your situation, and there are scientific options that can make a difference.

Essence Magazine, August 2005
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
quote:
That IS NOT the norm! You cannot use the exception to the rule as the entire basis of your argument. That's nonsensical.

The eventual destruction of the hair and scalp IS THE NORM. And I all the flukey science you drag out does not negate the fact that the process is dangerous, and hastens the deterioration that should happen NATURALLY.


What flukey science?!?! You're the only one dragging out pictures of hairlines and articles on old school lye relaxers!

Black women have a variety of hairstyles throughout their lifetime. We do not perm our hair from age 3 up to the damn grave. YOU have no idea what the "norm" is for us because you don't know anything about Black women and hair. You just see and jump to conclusions.

Now that your initial premise has been shot down from every angle, you're sticking to this "kids" thing. As I said already, there are numerous things that can change a child's natural hairline including things that are not chemically-based. Furthermore, there are children who's hair is relaxed and healthy and well-maintained. Relaxers are not singleh-handedly responsible for destroying our children.

quote:
how do you explain to a young girl that her hairline "will drift back" on its own?

I've addressed your misinterpretation of that phrase twice already.
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
Hair loss among Black women has reached near epidemic proportions. "I see at least five women every day with this concern," says dermatologist Susan Taylor, director of Society Hill Dermatology in Philadelphia. Different from hair breakage, in which the hair snaps off, loss occurs when "the hair comes out from the root, leaving patches with no hair, or alternatively, if there is still hair, the density is markedly less, and you can see the scalp through the hair," explains Taylor. Many Black women suffer from what doctors call traction alopecia. Tight hairstyles--braids, weaves, ponytails and cornrows--worn over long periods of time pull on the hair, causing the natural hairline to recede.

Central centrifugal cicatricial alopecia, another condition common among Black women, is characterized by circle-shaped balding at the crown toward the front of the head. Many dermatologists blame this condition on the sometimes outrageous things we do to our hair with tension, heat and chemicals. Other forms of hair loss include female pattern baldness, a hereditary condition, and alopecia areata, random quarter-size bald patches throughout the scalp, which can be caused by stress. In addition, pregnancy, certain medications, hormonal imbalances and thyroid malfunction can cause hair to fall out. The good news: Taking a proactive approach can improve your situation, and there are scientific options that can make a difference.

Essence Magazine, August 2005


Brotha, you're all over the place and wasting my time. Your own article supports what I already said.

Clearly, your problem is not with relaxers or chemicals or hair loss. It's with Black women. Typical.
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
At a recent gathering, I was chastised by several Black women for stating that I refused to consider / date / marry a sista who alters the texture of her hair. "If I wanted the aesthetics of a white woman, I would choose one." I was called all types of names. However, when I asked those same women if they would consider a brother who perms his hair, there was complete silence.

Why the contradiction? Why the hypocrisy? Why come the majority of sistas ignore the backward ass legacy of the hot comb? When will our women stand up and confront the pathology? And can we EVER have a honest discussion with Black women about this issue?

If this is a recycled issue on this board, then accept my apology in advance.


As per my definition of racism/white supremacy

Racism: An Unspoken, legislated contract between rich white people and poor white people to steal, siphon and unequally share the wealth, labor and natural resources on sovereign lands of non-white people amongst themselves. This contract initiated and perpetuated by rich white people in hopes of maintaining statistical support for their wealth, adopted by poor white people in the struggle to survive, is necessary only to maintain the status quo of rich white people. The chosen basis of this contract is skin simply because it can be enacted via the most potent, primal and powerful of white and non-white people senses, the visual sense. Skin color also provides certain tactical advantages to the white power structure in that, potential allies and infiltrators are easily identified and supported or thwarted, accordingly. It also provides a powerful recruitment tool, which is the intrinsic sense of entitlement, felt by phenotypic whites openly initiated into the circle. The potency of the visual sense is easily apparent, as many phenotypic traits normally (statistically) associated with black skin, most commonly wider noses and nappy hair, have become marks of those to be subjected to negative treatment by all white institutions. This is why we straighten our hair and cut up our noses in order to reduce our blackness and hence the degree of abuse. The most fascinating aspect of this contract is the complexity of its propagation. Since it is a sight based system of thought it will be obviously based on a visual system of propagation ie multimedia. Just look at your local newspaper and television fo 1-2 hours per day and count the number of times the black face/body/community is associated with a negative connotations. The methods go on and on, but only those who have been unplugged can appreciate them. This constant manufacturing of consent is necessary in order to keep well-meaning whites, who are mostly poor and without security, engaged and in sanction of this abusive system.....


We want the same things.....

We want Black women to be respected in all our shades of characteristics and beauty....

Shango....

you may not understand this.... but you are bringing this point to us in a harsh way......


This thread.... seems to be going in circles..... because at this point everyone is defending their minute points....

points that are valid....

and if we can get past our responses to each others method of delivery and the attitudes behind it we would see we are all pretty much on the same path...

*** Sisters--- do not want to be talked down to about a subject with which we have intimate knowledge including its complexity.....

We have a reflex that protects our self esteem from those who we feel threaten to tear it down.... no matter the intention......

if this is true.....

then it needs to be respected....

before you can reach consensus and empathy for your position.....


*** Brothers are men.... and do not have the same perspective, tolerances or style of communicating all the time.... brothers are varied as are we.... we except all of our diversity.... from the sisters with fire to those that are soft......

when brothers come with fire.... they are often harsh to our ears.....

but I hope I don't get roasted for saying this....

but inherent in all of Shango's posturing is his position that the Kinky Haired, Dark, African featured woman is beautiful and needs to be recognized as such..... and wishes for more women to recognize themselves as such.....


we can all yell past each other....

but....

you know...

there is much intelligence, wit and even brilliance on this board....

we should be able to find better ways to communicate our frustrations...

male and female

Shango....

Can you recognize that Black women are not monolithic in our preferences and style choices.... ?we do not all function from Eurocentric blinders...... not all brother.... so blanket statements will tend to be responded to harshly because no one wants to be incorrectly labeled......


Can you accept that even when a sister is functioning from low self esteem.... that in that case especially you want to talk with care.... because her spirit is already damaged.... your frustration with her growth will force her further into self loathing.... or defending an unhealthy way of looking at herself.....

Can we start here?

I'm speaking as a woman who has worn a perm.... who has worn an afro.... who has worn braids.... and who has kept her hair natural for over a decade....

I have styled women's hair.... I have helped them out of perms... and helped them maintain the one they have as healthy as possible....

If we want our sisters who are hurting from a European system that crushes their feminine soul..... then we must have....

compassion....

brother...

please...



Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:


We want the same things.....

We want Black women to be respected in all our shades of characteristics and beauty....


This is not accurate. Shango, et al's idea of beauty is limited only to the sista who wears a natural and no makeup. He's made that clear. The rest of us have put forth the notion that we should all be appreciated for our particular beauty.

This narrow view of beauty from one extreme to the next really irritates me. If it's not Euro-looking women then it's brown-skinned women with naturals. There are plenty of us in between of all hues, hairtypes, eye colors, etc. Why do people have to smash down one to lift up the other? It's complete bullshit.
quote:
Shango....
Can you recognize that Black women are not monolithic in our preferences and style choices.... ?we do not all function from Eurocentric blinders...... not all brother.... so blanket statements will tend to be responded to harshly because no one wants to be incorrectly labeled......

Yes, I understand that Black woman are not a monolith. Not all operate from eurocentric values - but MOST (And that is the best I can do). I still think there is a supreme lack of honesty from our women when looking at this issue - and they hide behind constructed realities afraid to pull back the layers... afraid to dig deep. And, given the amount of hell we catch from our women for various behavior, all of this backlash is the height of hypocrisy, IMO. I will rest on that point.
quote:
Can you accept that even when a sister is functioning from low self esteem.... that in that case especially you want to talk with care.... because her spirit is already damaged.... your frustration with her growth will force her further into self loathing.... or defending an unhealthy way of looking at herself.....

Yes.
When I watched the Westminster Dog Show, there was this huge jet black Portuguese dog, with hair flowing everywhere and a little curl on the top of his head that bounced as he trotted. Now that was some majestic beauty, (I can see him as I type this). Have never seen anything so magnificent in all of humanity.

These days, if I was looking for a man, I wouldn't care if his hair was straightened like Rev. Al's or dread-locked like Maxy Priest's. I'd want to know that if I made him mad, would he kill me or not; is he a molester, what makes him tick. Too much craziness in men these days to look at the outside jazz and razz-ma-tazz.
I do not belive that a black man should have anything to say about a womans action on her own hair. It is rediculous to be concerned with what a woman chooses to do with her hair. Perms are not only for looks, some people use them because it helps the hair grow and be more mannageable. I personnally have experienced this. My daughter has very course, dry hair unlike my own. So perming her hair not only makes it straight, but it helps her hair hold moisture and reduce breakage. Having to comb throuh dry rough hair only breaks it more. Oh I know what your going to say next, Just use moisturizers. Nope they dont work my daughters hair soaks up hair lotions and grease like a cactus in the desert. So Please Black Men dont judge your black queens in this manner. It reaaly is a discrace that we as blacks are still looking at eachother to judge eachothers hair, skin and other features. Dont we still have the world against enough. Dont think Slavery is over because we got a long way to go. Can you believe the price of freedom!
quote:
Originally posted by Libraian28:
I do not belive that a black man should have anything to say about a womans action on her own hair.


Should he not give compliments either?

quote:
It is rediculous to be concerned with what a woman chooses to do with her hair.


Should a man/woman ignore cultural trends resulting from the psychosis of slavery?

quote:
Perms are not only for looks, some people use them because it helps the hair grow


Please explain to me the process by which chemical straighteners grow hair...

quote:
and be more mannageable.


Please describe the types of styles for which one is attempting to make their hair more manageable...

quote:
I personnally have experienced this. My daughter has very course, dry hair unlike my own. So perming her hair not only makes it straight,


Why does she need to make it straight? Would you be able to tell me the level of coarseness?

quote:
but it helps her hair hold moisture and reduce breakage.


Are you aware of the structure of kinky hair? Are you aware of the causes of true loss of moisture in hair?

quote:
Having to comb throuh dry rough hair only breaks it more.


May I ask what type of comb you are using?

quote:
Oh I know what your going to say next, Just use moisturizers. Nope they dont work my daughters hair soaks up hair lotions and grease like a cactus in the desert.


Again, what level of coarseness? What is your style regimen? What types of moisturizers are you using?

quote:
So Please Black Men dont judge your black queens in this manner.


Again, should black men only comment on our hair when they like it?

quote:
It reaaly is a discrace that we as blacks are still looking at eachother to judge eachothers hair, skin and other features.


Agreed...

Many of us still believe that kinky hair is ugly...
Even though this has been talked about ad nauseam I need to add my 2 cents....I really long for the day when we stop letting things like skin tone and hair texture divide us. If Black women (like myself)choose to relax our hair it doesn't make us any less Black nor does it mean that we are trying to look white. To the sistas with natural dos...rock on! Because we have different beauty regimens it doesn't mean that one is better or worse.
And as for the men, its fine to have a preference but it's not cool to look down on any sista because of the way she chooses to wear her hair.
quote:
Originally posted by I_am_Mahogany:
Even though this has been talked about ad nauseam I need to add my 2 cents....I really long for the day when we stop letting things like skin tone and hair texture divide us.


Where do you think this "division" originated? and why?

quote:
If Black women (like myself)choose to relax our hair it doesn't make us any less Black nor does it mean that we are trying to look white.


What do you mean by less black? Are you referring to skin color, allegiance, psychosis, something else?

quote:
To the sistas with natural dos...rock on! Because we have different beauty regimens it doesn't mean that one is better or worse.


I do believe people have different standards for what is better or worse depending upon their goals... what is the goal of your beauty regimen?

quote:
And as for the men, its fine to have a preference but it's not cool to look down on any sista because of the way she chooses to wear her hair.



Preference often accompanies rejection of one thing over another... how one chooses to express their "preference" may be an issue... but preference itself denotes that one area is better suited than another for that person...

the criteria for this judgment is what is called into question....
I think many sistas are dishonest about the reasons the relax their hair and wear weaves. I mean how often do you hear " good hair vs Nappy headed" lets be real this in not something that just became a issue out of thin air there are psychological reasons behind it and sistas need to own up to that. period. Justy like the brother who will only date lightskinned girls with wavy hair, and say stuff like she is cute for a darskinned girl.Most black people have a problem one way or another with their Africanes and it manifests itself in many ways. For sistas to trivialize getting long golden or bloned silk weaves is disingenuious. Why is it when most sistas become famous the first thing they don , chop a little nose here, think a little lips here? I mean lets get real. Sistas talk about all the things thats wrong with the black man and what he wont do, how he gets a white woman when he makes it, when in my belief many sistas troy to immulate white women!

I mean I bet at least 8 out of 10 black women perm their hair and/or wear a weave, and this is just beauty preferences? Come on. If 8 out of 10 black men were wearing a conk today what would be said?
Khalliqa, I don't know where the divison originated but one would think that in this day and age things would be different. I have been judged by other Black people for as long as I can remember because I have very fair skin and relaxed hair.
When I use the term "less Black" I'm speaking from personal experience. I have been called "White" or "wanna be" by people based soley on my personal appearance. As much as I love my people my Blackness should never be called into question simply because I put chemicals in my hair. And as for my "goal", I'm just trying to do me. I had kiky twists for a few months and it just wasn't me. I like natural styles on other people but it's not the way to go for me.
My thing is that we find every reason in the world to judge each other. We get enough of that from white folk, we don't need to do it to ourselves.
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
I think many sistas are dishonest about the reasons the relax their hair and wear weaves. I mean how often do you hear " good hair vs Nappy headed" lets be real this in not something that just became a issue out of thin air there are psychological reasons behind it and sistas need to own up to that. period. Justy like the brother who will only date lightskinned girls with wavy hair, and say stuff like she is cute for a darskinned girl.Most black people have a problem one way or another with their Africanes and it manifests itself in many ways. For sistas to trivialize getting long golden or bloned silk weaves is disingenuious. Why is it when most sistas become famous the first thing they don , chop a little nose here, think a little lips here? I mean lets get real. Sistas talk about all the things thats wrong with the black man and what he wont do, how he gets a white woman when he makes it, when in my belief many sistas troy to immulate white women!

I mean I bet at least 8 out of 10 black women perm their hair and/or wear a weave, and this is just beauty preferences? Come on. If 8 out of 10 black men were wearing a conk today what would be said?


Zakar, I hear what you are saying and actually agree to a certain degree. I HATE the term "good hair" because that means some of us have "bad hair" and that sickens me. I may be in the minority but I have severed all ties with men who have told me that they only date light skin women...like that's some sort of compliment. I am a Black woman first...my skin tone doesn't define me.
While I do know that there are some light skin people who perpetuate the stereotype the lighter is better, not everyone is like that. One the reverse side of that argument, just bacause someone has natural hair and dark skin doesn't make he or she "better" than any other Black person either.
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
why is it not you to wear your natural hair? Another question, would you think its just personal preference, if a black man chooses only to date light and fair skinned sistas with straight hair?


I tried a natural styl, but I just didn't like it. Maybe I didn't give it enough time. Maybe after all of these years with chemically treated hair I've just conditioned myself to feel more comfortable wih straight hair...honsetly, I don't know.

If a man chooses to ONLY date light skin sistas it may be his personal preference but in essense he is rejecting all other Black women and that is not cool with me. I couldn't accept that.
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
see the point isnt who is better or who is worse because the premise is false. My point is what is really the reason people act this way, I mean like I asked before , why do you feel like wearing your natural hair isnt you? Why do some brothers feel only lighter skinned sistas are pretty?


I think it has everything to with what people perceive as better or worse.
Do you think society as a whole accepts you more with straightened hair? I mean are you more comfortable with your appearance in society with you hair this way versus looking "ethnic"

This also brings me to another related question along these lines. What in the hell do you think is going on with Venus and Serena Williams and all this weave and white men?
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
Do you think society as a whole accepts you more with straightened hair? I mean are you more comfortable with your appearance in society with you hair this way versus looking "ethnic"

This also brings me to another related question along these lines. What in the hell do you think is going on with Venus and Serena Williams and all this weave and white men?


Oh don't even get me started with the Williams sisters. Let me just say this, sometimes we hate ourselves more than white folks do...It's like that study that a college sista did last year. They showed a Black doll and a white doll to little Black girls and asked them which one was prettier. The overwhelming majority of little Black girls chose the white doll. I think Serena and Venus didn't have enough Black dolls in their lives while they were growing up.

But back to me and my hair, I felt more uncomfortable at work with my twists than I did when I wasn't at work. And I think...no, I know it's because I work in a predomiately white company. So to your point, I do think I am more accepted with straight hair. But I would like to believe that wasn't a factor for me relaxing my hair again. I didn't think the look suited me so I went back to my relaxed look.
quote:
But I would like to believe that wasn't a factor for me relaxing my hair again


are you not sure??

Back to Venus and Serena, they grew up in South Central Compton, to a black mother and black father. A father that nurtured them to Superstardom, now they turn to white men? it doenst add up. I wonder if Richard has a white woman?
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
quote:
But I would like to believe that wasn't a factor for me relaxing my hair again


are you not sure??


I didn't like the shocked faces but I've never been one to care much about what other people think about me.

quote:
Back to Venus and Serena, they grew up in South Central Compton, to a black mother and black father. A father that nurtured them to Superstardom, now they turn to white men? it doenst add up. I wonder if Richard has a white woman?


These sistas are going against the natural order of things. What I don't like is that they are going out of their way to embrace a different culture. What? Are there no eligible Black men in Hollywood? I just don't understand where they are coming from.
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
This also brings me to another related question along these lines. What in the hell do you think is going on with Venus and Serena Williams and all this weave and white men?


Speaking of Venus and Serena, I can recall when they first starting receiving widespread attention for their athletic abilities, they were dogged out for their appearance on messageboards. BLACK PEOPLE berated their dark skin and braided beaded hair. It's only been since they've matured and gotten some butt and boobs that they've started to be considered attractive by BLACK PEOPLE. In no way, do I condone choosing massa's grandsons as mates, but I'll bet they're pretty confused by the attention they receive nowadays.
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
Can't have this conversation....

the irony of the level of denial is appalling....

if one cannot even get to the root cause... has no idea where the "division" comes from but demands others cease discussions that "divide"...

you know what?

some people won't get it...

can't do this again... waste of energy...


Salaam...



But, denial is a part of the healing process, no? Denial protects one from the mind crushing effects of reality. If the ones who are gifted in teaching, healing, and counseling become frustrated and give up because of the denial, and denial is always difficult to get through, how can it ever be broken through?

Given that today's black women and children do these things "just because" or because mama did it, or because it's the norm, the reflexive denial should be expected. We don't know the history of "getting rid of naps". We've grown accustomed to permed hair as the default option. We think it's normal and maybe it's historical ignorance and not denial that allows us refuses at least acknowledging the basic premise...

that relaxing, perming, conking, straightening, jheri curling, s-curling, texturizing, and wave nouveauing came about as a result of the desire to be less black and nappy and therefore more acceptable to the mainstream.


I think the actual style that people are wearing is less important than having black people to acknowledge the history of anti-nappy sentiment. We need to know why and how this got started, even if we chose to relax, frost, and flip the tips.
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
Can't have this conversation....

the irony of the level of denial is appalling....

if one cannot even get to the root cause... has no idea where the "division" comes from but demands others cease discussions that "divide"...

you know what?

some people won't get it...

can't do this again... waste of energy...


Salaam...



But, denial is a part of the healing process, no?


Unfortunately, no... It means the person's mind is not yet prepared to lend their mind to truth... which is fine... it also lets others decide how much effort they wish to expend preparing someone's mind...

We all pick and choose what we will lend energy to... if someone can stimulate enlightenment at a time I can not, then that is a blessing...

quote:
Denial protects one from the mind crushing effects of reality.


Protects? sometimes... other times keeps one blind..

quote:
If the ones who are gifted in teaching, healing, and counseling become frustrated and give up because of the denial, and denial is always difficult to get through, how can it ever be broken through?


Ones who are gifted in teaching should teach... I agree with you.. having a knowledge of when they will be effective and when they will not..

quote:
Given that today's black women and children do these things "just because" or because mama did it, or because it's the norm, the reflexive denial should be expected. We don't know the history of "getting rid of naps". We've grown accustomed to permed hair as the default option. We think it's normal and maybe it's historical ignorance and not denial that allows us refuses at least acknowledging the basic premise...

that relaxing, perming, conking, straightening, jheri curling, s-curling, texturizing, and wave nouveauing came about as a result of the desire to be less black and nappy and therefore more acceptable to the mainstream.


I think the actual style that people are wearing is less important than having black people to acknowledge the history of anti-nappy sentiment. We need to know why and how this got started, even if we chose to relax, frost, and flip the tips.


I agree with you....
quote:
Originally posted by Momentum:
So, if you had to choose, would you have boys wearing paints so low that their whole ass is out, walking with their legs spread out to keep their pants from sliding down or black girls straightening their hair?

Which one do you find the most disgusting? Which one shows the most SO-CALLED self-loathing?


You can always grow out or cut your hair. I have to say that guys wearing pants that their butts are out is the most self-loathing and disgusting. That's why we have belts and/or suspenders...to hold our pants up.

Most of these kids think that they're hip, hard or in fashion, when they don't even know that sagging is from a prison culture. They don't that when they're sagging, they're basically saying (unbeknownst to them) is "Hi, sailor. Can I be your bitch for this evening?"
This hits home for a certain person that I know all to well...my mother.

Ok, so my mother and I have hair that is relaxed. We were flipping through a black hair magazine, while my mother was getting her hair done. She made some of the most IGNORANT comments toward natural hair, saying that she didn't need to come out looking like "the Bush" and that she was "conservative." I was disgusted by her derisive remarks towards dreadlocks, natural hair, etc. And she always remarked about how she always wanted my "good hair." Confused

Luckily, I'm a smart individual and didn't buy into this "good hair vs. bad hair" crap that my mother did. Sadly, she has told both of my younger brothers that they have "bad hair." I wanted to smack her. Goddamn black people can be so ignorant. I love my mother but some of the things she has said have been out of line and one day I am going to lose it...

But I can't blame her. The majority of her family is fucked up. Her father married a white woman (my step grandmother) who is young enough to be his daughter (granted she has aged HORRIBLY), her mother cheated on my grandfather with a white man, her two younger sisters have dated nothing but white men and have surrounded themselves with white people (I think they think that they are white. LOL, they have the most negroid features in the family, but one of them finally learned and settled down with a black man after being married to a white one), she has another sister who is lesbian and only dates white women, and a brother married to a white woman who does NOTHING. When she came over to the house for Thanksgiving (uninvited btw), my mom had to beg to get her to help with the dishes. She's never had a formal job before and she is in her 40s. My mother has another brother who I rarely see and he dates nothing but white women. So as you can see, my mom came from a VERY messed up family.

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