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quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
Hair loss among Black women has reached near epidemic proportions. "I see at least five women every day with this concern," says dermatologist Susan Taylor, director of Society Hill Dermatology in Philadelphia. Different from hair breakage, in which the hair snaps off, loss occurs when "the hair comes out from the root, leaving patches with no hair, or alternatively, if there is still hair, the density is markedly less, and you can see the scalp through the hair," explains Taylor. Many Black women suffer from what doctors call traction alopecia. Tight hairstyles--braids, weaves, ponytails and cornrows--worn over long periods of time pull on the hair, causing the natural hairline to recede.

Central centrifugal cicatricial alopecia, another condition common among Black women, is characterized by circle-shaped balding at the crown toward the front of the head. Many dermatologists blame this condition on the sometimes outrageous things we do to our hair with tension, heat and chemicals. Other forms of hair loss include female pattern baldness, a hereditary condition, and alopecia areata, random quarter-size bald patches throughout the scalp, which can be caused by stress. In addition, pregnancy, certain medications, hormonal imbalances and thyroid malfunction can cause hair to fall out. The good news: Taking a proactive approach can improve your situation, and there are scientific options that can make a difference.

Essence Magazine, August 2005


Brotha, you're all over the place and wasting my time. Your own article supports what I already said.

Clearly, your problem is not with relaxers or chemicals or hair loss. It's with Black women. Typical.
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
At a recent gathering, I was chastised by several Black women for stating that I refused to consider / date / marry a sista who alters the texture of her hair. "If I wanted the aesthetics of a white woman, I would choose one." I was called all types of names. However, when I asked those same women if they would consider a brother who perms his hair, there was complete silence.

Why the contradiction? Why the hypocrisy? Why come the majority of sistas ignore the backward ass legacy of the hot comb? When will our women stand up and confront the pathology? And can we EVER have a honest discussion with Black women about this issue?

If this is a recycled issue on this board, then accept my apology in advance.


As per my definition of racism/white supremacy

Racism: An Unspoken, legislated contract between rich white people and poor white people to steal, siphon and unequally share the wealth, labor and natural resources on sovereign lands of non-white people amongst themselves. This contract initiated and perpetuated by rich white people in hopes of maintaining statistical support for their wealth, adopted by poor white people in the struggle to survive, is necessary only to maintain the status quo of rich white people. The chosen basis of this contract is skin simply because it can be enacted via the most potent, primal and powerful of white and non-white people senses, the visual sense. Skin color also provides certain tactical advantages to the white power structure in that, potential allies and infiltrators are easily identified and supported or thwarted, accordingly. It also provides a powerful recruitment tool, which is the intrinsic sense of entitlement, felt by phenotypic whites openly initiated into the circle. The potency of the visual sense is easily apparent, as many phenotypic traits normally (statistically) associated with black skin, most commonly wider noses and nappy hair, have become marks of those to be subjected to negative treatment by all white institutions. This is why we straighten our hair and cut up our noses in order to reduce our blackness and hence the degree of abuse. The most fascinating aspect of this contract is the complexity of its propagation. Since it is a sight based system of thought it will be obviously based on a visual system of propagation ie multimedia. Just look at your local newspaper and television fo 1-2 hours per day and count the number of times the black face/body/community is associated with a negative connotations. The methods go on and on, but only those who have been unplugged can appreciate them. This constant manufacturing of consent is necessary in order to keep well-meaning whites, who are mostly poor and without security, engaged and in sanction of this abusive system.....


We want the same things.....

We want Black women to be respected in all our shades of characteristics and beauty....

Shango....

you may not understand this.... but you are bringing this point to us in a harsh way......


This thread.... seems to be going in circles..... because at this point everyone is defending their minute points....

points that are valid....

and if we can get past our responses to each others method of delivery and the attitudes behind it we would see we are all pretty much on the same path...

*** Sisters--- do not want to be talked down to about a subject with which we have intimate knowledge including its complexity.....

We have a reflex that protects our self esteem from those who we feel threaten to tear it down.... no matter the intention......

if this is true.....

then it needs to be respected....

before you can reach consensus and empathy for your position.....


*** Brothers are men.... and do not have the same perspective, tolerances or style of communicating all the time.... brothers are varied as are we.... we except all of our diversity.... from the sisters with fire to those that are soft......

when brothers come with fire.... they are often harsh to our ears.....

but I hope I don't get roasted for saying this....

but inherent in all of Shango's posturing is his position that the Kinky Haired, Dark, African featured woman is beautiful and needs to be recognized as such..... and wishes for more women to recognize themselves as such.....


we can all yell past each other....

but....

you know...

there is much intelligence, wit and even brilliance on this board....

we should be able to find better ways to communicate our frustrations...

male and female

Shango....

Can you recognize that Black women are not monolithic in our preferences and style choices.... ?we do not all function from Eurocentric blinders...... not all brother.... so blanket statements will tend to be responded to harshly because no one wants to be incorrectly labeled......


Can you accept that even when a sister is functioning from low self esteem.... that in that case especially you want to talk with care.... because her spirit is already damaged.... your frustration with her growth will force her further into self loathing.... or defending an unhealthy way of looking at herself.....

Can we start here?

I'm speaking as a woman who has worn a perm.... who has worn an afro.... who has worn braids.... and who has kept her hair natural for over a decade....

I have styled women's hair.... I have helped them out of perms... and helped them maintain the one they have as healthy as possible....

If we want our sisters who are hurting from a European system that crushes their feminine soul..... then we must have....

compassion....

brother...

please...



Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:


We want the same things.....

We want Black women to be respected in all our shades of characteristics and beauty....


This is not accurate. Shango, et al's idea of beauty is limited only to the sista who wears a natural and no makeup. He's made that clear. The rest of us have put forth the notion that we should all be appreciated for our particular beauty.

This narrow view of beauty from one extreme to the next really irritates me. If it's not Euro-looking women then it's brown-skinned women with naturals. There are plenty of us in between of all hues, hairtypes, eye colors, etc. Why do people have to smash down one to lift up the other? It's complete bullshit.
quote:
Shango....
Can you recognize that Black women are not monolithic in our preferences and style choices.... ?we do not all function from Eurocentric blinders...... not all brother.... so blanket statements will tend to be responded to harshly because no one wants to be incorrectly labeled......

Yes, I understand that Black woman are not a monolith. Not all operate from eurocentric values - but MOST (And that is the best I can do). I still think there is a supreme lack of honesty from our women when looking at this issue - and they hide behind constructed realities afraid to pull back the layers... afraid to dig deep. And, given the amount of hell we catch from our women for various behavior, all of this backlash is the height of hypocrisy, IMO. I will rest on that point.
quote:
Can you accept that even when a sister is functioning from low self esteem.... that in that case especially you want to talk with care.... because her spirit is already damaged.... your frustration with her growth will force her further into self loathing.... or defending an unhealthy way of looking at herself.....

Yes.
When I watched the Westminster Dog Show, there was this huge jet black Portuguese dog, with hair flowing everywhere and a little curl on the top of his head that bounced as he trotted. Now that was some majestic beauty, (I can see him as I type this). Have never seen anything so magnificent in all of humanity.

These days, if I was looking for a man, I wouldn't care if his hair was straightened like Rev. Al's or dread-locked like Maxy Priest's. I'd want to know that if I made him mad, would he kill me or not; is he a molester, what makes him tick. Too much craziness in men these days to look at the outside jazz and razz-ma-tazz.
I do not belive that a black man should have anything to say about a womans action on her own hair. It is rediculous to be concerned with what a woman chooses to do with her hair. Perms are not only for looks, some people use them because it helps the hair grow and be more mannageable. I personnally have experienced this. My daughter has very course, dry hair unlike my own. So perming her hair not only makes it straight, but it helps her hair hold moisture and reduce breakage. Having to comb throuh dry rough hair only breaks it more. Oh I know what your going to say next, Just use moisturizers. Nope they dont work my daughters hair soaks up hair lotions and grease like a cactus in the desert. So Please Black Men dont judge your black queens in this manner. It reaaly is a discrace that we as blacks are still looking at eachother to judge eachothers hair, skin and other features. Dont we still have the world against enough. Dont think Slavery is over because we got a long way to go. Can you believe the price of freedom!
quote:
Originally posted by Libraian28:
I do not belive that a black man should have anything to say about a womans action on her own hair.


Should he not give compliments either?

quote:
It is rediculous to be concerned with what a woman chooses to do with her hair.


Should a man/woman ignore cultural trends resulting from the psychosis of slavery?

quote:
Perms are not only for looks, some people use them because it helps the hair grow


Please explain to me the process by which chemical straighteners grow hair...

quote:
and be more mannageable.


Please describe the types of styles for which one is attempting to make their hair more manageable...

quote:
I personnally have experienced this. My daughter has very course, dry hair unlike my own. So perming her hair not only makes it straight,


Why does she need to make it straight? Would you be able to tell me the level of coarseness?

quote:
but it helps her hair hold moisture and reduce breakage.


Are you aware of the structure of kinky hair? Are you aware of the causes of true loss of moisture in hair?

quote:
Having to comb throuh dry rough hair only breaks it more.


May I ask what type of comb you are using?

quote:
Oh I know what your going to say next, Just use moisturizers. Nope they dont work my daughters hair soaks up hair lotions and grease like a cactus in the desert.


Again, what level of coarseness? What is your style regimen? What types of moisturizers are you using?

quote:
So Please Black Men dont judge your black queens in this manner.


Again, should black men only comment on our hair when they like it?

quote:
It reaaly is a discrace that we as blacks are still looking at eachother to judge eachothers hair, skin and other features.


Agreed...

Many of us still believe that kinky hair is ugly...
Even though this has been talked about ad nauseam I need to add my 2 cents....I really long for the day when we stop letting things like skin tone and hair texture divide us. If Black women (like myself)choose to relax our hair it doesn't make us any less Black nor does it mean that we are trying to look white. To the sistas with natural dos...rock on! Because we have different beauty regimens it doesn't mean that one is better or worse.
And as for the men, its fine to have a preference but it's not cool to look down on any sista because of the way she chooses to wear her hair.
quote:
Originally posted by I_am_Mahogany:
Even though this has been talked about ad nauseam I need to add my 2 cents....I really long for the day when we stop letting things like skin tone and hair texture divide us.


Where do you think this "division" originated? and why?

quote:
If Black women (like myself)choose to relax our hair it doesn't make us any less Black nor does it mean that we are trying to look white.


What do you mean by less black? Are you referring to skin color, allegiance, psychosis, something else?

quote:
To the sistas with natural dos...rock on! Because we have different beauty regimens it doesn't mean that one is better or worse.


I do believe people have different standards for what is better or worse depending upon their goals... what is the goal of your beauty regimen?

quote:
And as for the men, its fine to have a preference but it's not cool to look down on any sista because of the way she chooses to wear her hair.



Preference often accompanies rejection of one thing over another... how one chooses to express their "preference" may be an issue... but preference itself denotes that one area is better suited than another for that person...

the criteria for this judgment is what is called into question....
I think many sistas are dishonest about the reasons the relax their hair and wear weaves. I mean how often do you hear " good hair vs Nappy headed" lets be real this in not something that just became a issue out of thin air there are psychological reasons behind it and sistas need to own up to that. period. Justy like the brother who will only date lightskinned girls with wavy hair, and say stuff like she is cute for a darskinned girl.Most black people have a problem one way or another with their Africanes and it manifests itself in many ways. For sistas to trivialize getting long golden or bloned silk weaves is disingenuious. Why is it when most sistas become famous the first thing they don , chop a little nose here, think a little lips here? I mean lets get real. Sistas talk about all the things thats wrong with the black man and what he wont do, how he gets a white woman when he makes it, when in my belief many sistas troy to immulate white women!

I mean I bet at least 8 out of 10 black women perm their hair and/or wear a weave, and this is just beauty preferences? Come on. If 8 out of 10 black men were wearing a conk today what would be said?
Khalliqa, I don't know where the divison originated but one would think that in this day and age things would be different. I have been judged by other Black people for as long as I can remember because I have very fair skin and relaxed hair.
When I use the term "less Black" I'm speaking from personal experience. I have been called "White" or "wanna be" by people based soley on my personal appearance. As much as I love my people my Blackness should never be called into question simply because I put chemicals in my hair. And as for my "goal", I'm just trying to do me. I had kiky twists for a few months and it just wasn't me. I like natural styles on other people but it's not the way to go for me.
My thing is that we find every reason in the world to judge each other. We get enough of that from white folk, we don't need to do it to ourselves.
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
I think many sistas are dishonest about the reasons the relax their hair and wear weaves. I mean how often do you hear " good hair vs Nappy headed" lets be real this in not something that just became a issue out of thin air there are psychological reasons behind it and sistas need to own up to that. period. Justy like the brother who will only date lightskinned girls with wavy hair, and say stuff like she is cute for a darskinned girl.Most black people have a problem one way or another with their Africanes and it manifests itself in many ways. For sistas to trivialize getting long golden or bloned silk weaves is disingenuious. Why is it when most sistas become famous the first thing they don , chop a little nose here, think a little lips here? I mean lets get real. Sistas talk about all the things thats wrong with the black man and what he wont do, how he gets a white woman when he makes it, when in my belief many sistas troy to immulate white women!

I mean I bet at least 8 out of 10 black women perm their hair and/or wear a weave, and this is just beauty preferences? Come on. If 8 out of 10 black men were wearing a conk today what would be said?


Zakar, I hear what you are saying and actually agree to a certain degree. I HATE the term "good hair" because that means some of us have "bad hair" and that sickens me. I may be in the minority but I have severed all ties with men who have told me that they only date light skin women...like that's some sort of compliment. I am a Black woman first...my skin tone doesn't define me.
While I do know that there are some light skin people who perpetuate the stereotype the lighter is better, not everyone is like that. One the reverse side of that argument, just bacause someone has natural hair and dark skin doesn't make he or she "better" than any other Black person either.
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
why is it not you to wear your natural hair? Another question, would you think its just personal preference, if a black man chooses only to date light and fair skinned sistas with straight hair?


I tried a natural styl, but I just didn't like it. Maybe I didn't give it enough time. Maybe after all of these years with chemically treated hair I've just conditioned myself to feel more comfortable wih straight hair...honsetly, I don't know.

If a man chooses to ONLY date light skin sistas it may be his personal preference but in essense he is rejecting all other Black women and that is not cool with me. I couldn't accept that.
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
see the point isnt who is better or who is worse because the premise is false. My point is what is really the reason people act this way, I mean like I asked before , why do you feel like wearing your natural hair isnt you? Why do some brothers feel only lighter skinned sistas are pretty?


I think it has everything to with what people perceive as better or worse.
Do you think society as a whole accepts you more with straightened hair? I mean are you more comfortable with your appearance in society with you hair this way versus looking "ethnic"

This also brings me to another related question along these lines. What in the hell do you think is going on with Venus and Serena Williams and all this weave and white men?
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
Do you think society as a whole accepts you more with straightened hair? I mean are you more comfortable with your appearance in society with you hair this way versus looking "ethnic"

This also brings me to another related question along these lines. What in the hell do you think is going on with Venus and Serena Williams and all this weave and white men?


Oh don't even get me started with the Williams sisters. Let me just say this, sometimes we hate ourselves more than white folks do...It's like that study that a college sista did last year. They showed a Black doll and a white doll to little Black girls and asked them which one was prettier. The overwhelming majority of little Black girls chose the white doll. I think Serena and Venus didn't have enough Black dolls in their lives while they were growing up.

But back to me and my hair, I felt more uncomfortable at work with my twists than I did when I wasn't at work. And I think...no, I know it's because I work in a predomiately white company. So to your point, I do think I am more accepted with straight hair. But I would like to believe that wasn't a factor for me relaxing my hair again. I didn't think the look suited me so I went back to my relaxed look.
quote:
But I would like to believe that wasn't a factor for me relaxing my hair again


are you not sure??

Back to Venus and Serena, they grew up in South Central Compton, to a black mother and black father. A father that nurtured them to Superstardom, now they turn to white men? it doenst add up. I wonder if Richard has a white woman?
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
quote:
But I would like to believe that wasn't a factor for me relaxing my hair again


are you not sure??


I didn't like the shocked faces but I've never been one to care much about what other people think about me.

quote:
Back to Venus and Serena, they grew up in South Central Compton, to a black mother and black father. A father that nurtured them to Superstardom, now they turn to white men? it doenst add up. I wonder if Richard has a white woman?


These sistas are going against the natural order of things. What I don't like is that they are going out of their way to embrace a different culture. What? Are there no eligible Black men in Hollywood? I just don't understand where they are coming from.
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
This also brings me to another related question along these lines. What in the hell do you think is going on with Venus and Serena Williams and all this weave and white men?


Speaking of Venus and Serena, I can recall when they first starting receiving widespread attention for their athletic abilities, they were dogged out for their appearance on messageboards. BLACK PEOPLE berated their dark skin and braided beaded hair. It's only been since they've matured and gotten some butt and boobs that they've started to be considered attractive by BLACK PEOPLE. In no way, do I condone choosing massa's grandsons as mates, but I'll bet they're pretty confused by the attention they receive nowadays.
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
Can't have this conversation....

the irony of the level of denial is appalling....

if one cannot even get to the root cause... has no idea where the "division" comes from but demands others cease discussions that "divide"...

you know what?

some people won't get it...

can't do this again... waste of energy...


Salaam...



But, denial is a part of the healing process, no? Denial protects one from the mind crushing effects of reality. If the ones who are gifted in teaching, healing, and counseling become frustrated and give up because of the denial, and denial is always difficult to get through, how can it ever be broken through?

Given that today's black women and children do these things "just because" or because mama did it, or because it's the norm, the reflexive denial should be expected. We don't know the history of "getting rid of naps". We've grown accustomed to permed hair as the default option. We think it's normal and maybe it's historical ignorance and not denial that allows us refuses at least acknowledging the basic premise...

that relaxing, perming, conking, straightening, jheri curling, s-curling, texturizing, and wave nouveauing came about as a result of the desire to be less black and nappy and therefore more acceptable to the mainstream.


I think the actual style that people are wearing is less important than having black people to acknowledge the history of anti-nappy sentiment. We need to know why and how this got started, even if we chose to relax, frost, and flip the tips.
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
Can't have this conversation....

the irony of the level of denial is appalling....

if one cannot even get to the root cause... has no idea where the "division" comes from but demands others cease discussions that "divide"...

you know what?

some people won't get it...

can't do this again... waste of energy...


Salaam...



But, denial is a part of the healing process, no?


Unfortunately, no... It means the person's mind is not yet prepared to lend their mind to truth... which is fine... it also lets others decide how much effort they wish to expend preparing someone's mind...

We all pick and choose what we will lend energy to... if someone can stimulate enlightenment at a time I can not, then that is a blessing...

quote:
Denial protects one from the mind crushing effects of reality.


Protects? sometimes... other times keeps one blind..

quote:
If the ones who are gifted in teaching, healing, and counseling become frustrated and give up because of the denial, and denial is always difficult to get through, how can it ever be broken through?


Ones who are gifted in teaching should teach... I agree with you.. having a knowledge of when they will be effective and when they will not..

quote:
Given that today's black women and children do these things "just because" or because mama did it, or because it's the norm, the reflexive denial should be expected. We don't know the history of "getting rid of naps". We've grown accustomed to permed hair as the default option. We think it's normal and maybe it's historical ignorance and not denial that allows us refuses at least acknowledging the basic premise...

that relaxing, perming, conking, straightening, jheri curling, s-curling, texturizing, and wave nouveauing came about as a result of the desire to be less black and nappy and therefore more acceptable to the mainstream.


I think the actual style that people are wearing is less important than having black people to acknowledge the history of anti-nappy sentiment. We need to know why and how this got started, even if we chose to relax, frost, and flip the tips.


I agree with you....
quote:
Originally posted by Momentum:
So, if you had to choose, would you have boys wearing paints so low that their whole ass is out, walking with their legs spread out to keep their pants from sliding down or black girls straightening their hair?

Which one do you find the most disgusting? Which one shows the most SO-CALLED self-loathing?


You can always grow out or cut your hair. I have to say that guys wearing pants that their butts are out is the most self-loathing and disgusting. That's why we have belts and/or suspenders...to hold our pants up.

Most of these kids think that they're hip, hard or in fashion, when they don't even know that sagging is from a prison culture. They don't that when they're sagging, they're basically saying (unbeknownst to them) is "Hi, sailor. Can I be your bitch for this evening?"
This hits home for a certain person that I know all to well...my mother.

Ok, so my mother and I have hair that is relaxed. We were flipping through a black hair magazine, while my mother was getting her hair done. She made some of the most IGNORANT comments toward natural hair, saying that she didn't need to come out looking like "the Bush" and that she was "conservative." I was disgusted by her derisive remarks towards dreadlocks, natural hair, etc. And she always remarked about how she always wanted my "good hair." Confused

Luckily, I'm a smart individual and didn't buy into this "good hair vs. bad hair" crap that my mother did. Sadly, she has told both of my younger brothers that they have "bad hair." I wanted to smack her. Goddamn black people can be so ignorant. I love my mother but some of the things she has said have been out of line and one day I am going to lose it...

But I can't blame her. The majority of her family is fucked up. Her father married a white woman (my step grandmother) who is young enough to be his daughter (granted she has aged HORRIBLY), her mother cheated on my grandfather with a white man, her two younger sisters have dated nothing but white men and have surrounded themselves with white people (I think they think that they are white. LOL, they have the most negroid features in the family, but one of them finally learned and settled down with a black man after being married to a white one), she has another sister who is lesbian and only dates white women, and a brother married to a white woman who does NOTHING. When she came over to the house for Thanksgiving (uninvited btw), my mom had to beg to get her to help with the dishes. She's never had a formal job before and she is in her 40s. My mother has another brother who I rarely see and he dates nothing but white women. So as you can see, my mom came from a VERY messed up family.

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