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I never understood this, but why do African Americans vote mostly (~90%) democrat? As a race I see absolutely no benefit for African Americans to vote Democrat.

92% of Republicans supported Civil Rights, 62% of democrats.
Abraham Lincoln (republican) chose to free the slaves, and had plans to give reparations to freed slaves IMMEDIATELY, to try to make some sort of fair chance from the start. Democrats wouldn't allow it.
Democrats believe in Affirmative Action, which basically states that blacks and other minorities aren't smart enough to study hard during school and get good grades (the best way to learn is self-teaching), or at least learn basics from their parents, or even at worst to seek out someone (there's plenty of private organizations such as Churches) to tutor them if the school REALLY isn't doing the job right. So instead Affirmative Action tells people that they're not good enough on their own, that they need a little boost. Democrats support that. Republicans oppose it because they seek to provide unequal results through equal opportunity. Republicans seek to enforce the laws that are in place on discrimination, discouraging the idiots who discriminate against people from doing so, and not penalizing those who actually obey the law and are fair to all people.

I could go on and on, but you get the point. African Americans are just as capable as anyone else to make something of themselves, but in the opinion of Clarence Mason Weaver (in his words, "a black man"), "The black culture that has come to exist in America is what is keeping blacks down in this country. Black kids excel in schools and they are made fun of for doing so. They're ridiculed and threatened by people that don't matter to them (their so-called "friends", real friends (such as family) wouldn't do that, and their family usually supports them) and they say that if they do well they're betraying their race and their people, and they're being like whitey if they do that, or if they go out on their own). Just like slaves who warned others that "If they leave the plantation, they're going to get killed, to stay there, master takes care of them, and they're betraying the other slaves if they leave". Some were even put in charge by the slave owner to report on any other slaves thinking of escaping, and they were given priveledge in return for their (true) betrayal to the other slaves. He would petition the master for better treatment, and make sure slaves weren't treated unfairly, but would rat on the ones who sought to escape. Jesse Jackson plays this role today, which side of the political fence does he sit on?

Democrats are equivalent to the slave owners. They'll take care of us, don't you worry, just like master took care of the slaves. Republicans are equivalent to Harriet Tubman, seeking out individual PRISONERS (not slaves, slaves don't want to leave the plantation) and bringing them to freedom where they fend for themselves and become successful. Harriet Tubman didn't take whole lumps of people just to say she freed a large number of slaves, she only went to those whom she knew wanted to be free. Those are the only ones who will be able to benefit from their assistance. Democrats just take a blanket and think it'll solve all the problems.

Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
--------------------------------------- Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
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They advocate a Democratically elected Constitutional Republic in which the masses choose representatives (in proportion to the population of the state and area, as well as in proportion to its 1/50'th as part of the country).

Those representatives then have the responsibility to run the nation within the basis of the constitution.

Basically, it seems to me that Democrats have the attitude that Bill Clinton has..
"We live in a Democracy in the United States" - Bill Clinton

Democracy - Rule by the masses. If 10 cannibals are on a Democracy island, and 8 vote to eat Joe for lunch, then Joe just became lunch. If 90% of the people choose to put a minority in ghettos in Warsaw, Poland, and slowly execute them, then that's what becomes law. In a Constitutional Republic, those things are strictly forbidden.

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Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
Lincoln didn't CHOSE to free the slaves. Read the preamble of the Emancipation Proclamation. He was interested in ending the Civil War. If he could have done so without freeing the slaves, he would have done so. The Proclamation only freed the slaves in the Confederacy, it did nothing for slaves in the Union states.

It was under a Republican (Rutherford B. Hayes) that Reconstruction ended and Jim Crow started. It was a deal brought to appease the Southern states over his controversial election.

AA does not make blacks "feel" inferior, no more than whites feel inferior over nepotism. AA is a means to address past wrongs. Unfortunately, its original intent has been bastardized. With these recent Supreme Court rulings, hopefully its original purpose will be followed.
I just realized I am INTOLERANT!!!

I will not educate you. If you truly want to go know, give up the anonymity of web posting. Go to a meeting of some community-based group, and ask your questions. If that's not close enough, go to the nearest mosque of the Nation of Islam, and ask. I'm sure someone will have an answer.

You can always come to me. Get on I81, and drive East. Send me an e-mail when you get into PA. jwchest@worldnet.att.net. I'll guide you in.

PEACE

Jim Chester

JWC
Barwick, you need to get a grasp on Jr. High history. The little simpleton information that you are posting here is just based in a lack of information. How old are you? 15, maybe.
Maybe you should read about the Democrats and Republicans history. Liberal doesn't equate to Democrat and Republican doesn't equate to Conservative. As you should well know politics here and abroad change throughout the years. The U.S. political scene is no different. Every party changes to what is popular at the time of their rule. I guess some people only see what they want to see. The only thing that we can do here is lead the horses to water, but we can't make them drink it.
It doesn't make a difference to me because basing my opinion on the actions of both parties lately I can definitely say that all each party is trying to do is maintain power for itself. This in no way has benefit, but in actuality detriment to African-americans. Because no matter what in the end we know from prior experience, we're going to get stepped on in some fashion.


Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965
Good Morning Mr. Barwick,

"I never understood this, but why do African Americans vote mostly (~90%) democrat? As a race I see absolutely no benefit for African Americans to vote Democrat." by Mr. Barwick

Well said and very well taken. Indeed, not only does better than 90% of the Black community vote Democrat 90%, but also many of these individuals continue to re-elect into public office misfits from the community of Black America itself, who have betrayed, misrepresented, decieved, and/or who are blatantly incompetent by any meaning of what it means to be an elected office holder.

Furthermore, many Black communities which are overwhelmingly financed and supported by the Democratic Party are the most disoriented, un-American, truly regressive communities, and/or poverty stricken communities in the U.S.

"Prop 209 that this damn fool connerly spearheaded resulted in a drop of 130,000 students of color in Calif colleges in one year"by Kevin41

"That was a small sample to just show you the baseless nature of your incessant ramblings Lofton.....it is not hard to do at all....." by Kevin41

....not so worthless or baseless, Kevin41, because you keep coming back for more punishment!

I have put so many holes in your dialogue it looks like swiss cheese...from you naming mentally ill behavior as how black people are, to lying your azz off about people being illegal, to not even being able to name anything specifically that people did who you drag through the mud daily....you are a psychopathic fool with misdirected self-hatred that you will never be able to detach yourself from....no matter HOW much you degrade black people....it will always be a form of self-torment........so take your azz over with those racist azz whites you keep running to for acceptance at the other board.....because a negro in a urban area supporting conservative politics is really really stupid....when your surroundings are a direct result of the disenfrnchisement of blacks via conservative politics.....go ask yourself lofton, why are their only poor blacks and mexicans in EVERY poor urban area of this country? why are there no large cities filled with poor whites....why are there no poor white inner city schools? go read about social engineering and realize what an experiment you and inner city negroes who think like you ended up being for mr charlie......... by Kevin41

Not so Kevin41, because again the only one that you can rightfully speak for is Kevin41, to which even then your dialogue is much less than the value of a "red herring". The only thing that you have re-affirmed or confirmed is your own inadequacies, in being a "pompous", "Blame Everything on Caucasian America", AA begging, reaching for straws and wonder why you continue to end up empty handed, waste of my time, discombobulated Dr. Do Little Professor of Profanity!

"Go and read about their wages as opposed to white american programmers...oh...about 1/2. They were going home on limited visas remember? 1/2 of what an american makes is still allot to a man going home...and it is cheap high-tech labor to good ole mr. charlie over here." by Kevin41

......not so, or less than partially true because some have gone on to create their own firms such as "Sun Micro Systems", "Info Seek", etc., to which unlike your analogy, Mr. Charlie works for them because out of risk taking some of these Indians, Pakistanis, etc., own the business!

Give it up Kevin41, and all others of similar mindset. Again those with the grades, those who have the talent could care less, as to the pros and/or cons of Prop 209. Stop crying and get over it.

Blame it all on Ward Connerly, Condoleeza Rice, "It's All Whitey's Fault", etc., if you like, but as reality has it the people of the State of California, in California's own registered voters overwhelmingly voted in favor of Proposition 209.

Well, I'll let the "Cat out of the Bag". I'm one of many U.S. citizens of Black American heritage who voted in favor of Proposition 209. Guess what, the passing of proposition 209 has yet to negatively impact my life, and/or anyone else who can prove their worth, be it by proven competency or otherwise.

....As for many of Black America's elected leaders, it is a known fact that far too many of Black America's own elected office holders are worthless anyway. If just one of Black America's elected leaders truly served in the capacity as mandated by definition of the sworn duty of all elected office holders to serve the people, there wouldn't be as many law abiding U.S. citizens of Black American heritage begging for Welfare, Affirmative Action, begging ......"Caucasian America Will You Please Hire Me", begging for the "Pie in the Sky" impossible to receive so much as a dime in U.S. dollars for slavery reparations, because the sidewalks, the streets, the bank accounts, etc., of all those who have used legal means in the name of redress for the wrongs of a U.S. government, and its institutions seriously gone awry, who instead of begging to enter a university, the individuals concerned would own the university outright! Personally, it is of much more value to sit in the winner's circle, than to be begging on the outside to receive, Welfare benefits, crumbs in AA benefits, reparations for the ills of slavery that will never materialize, etc.

"Sellout? YOU CALL CONDI RICE A SELLOUT?!?"

"Heaven forbid she actually have her OWN OPINION. Give me a break.. I'm not even going to get into this one, I'll shout for days." by Mr. Barwick

"Race only matters to those who believe it matters. Race is arbitrary and a manmade invention. There are many scholars and scientists that have actually proven that race isn't a real fact; that all it is is made up. Once you realize this, like I have, you will realize that we are all truly equal in the world, but that we must work through common merit and helping one another achieve, rather than trying to attack one-another for such a foolish notion as race." Jonas Salk

"The issue is can 'race' be used in the admissions process. Just as in 'hiring' someone, using race as a factor is unconstitutional. Don't even need a trial to know that. The wording is quite clear.

Fact is after race was stricken as a determinant, there's been a rebound of minority students attending California's universitys. Judging people based on skin color obviously is not only unconstitutional, but no longer necessary to achieve diversity. Those are the facts." by Mr. dwill

"Let me put it this way, quotas are illegal. Make quotas legal and then lets talk. Affirmative Action isn't quotas. Liberals need to get a clue.

One of these days I'm gonna leave you guys to your single point of view since that's all you seem to be anyway.

My major issue has always been to re-think how Black people are being used by the democrat party. About how they consistantly use hate to stir us and keep us in the same space we've been in since the 50's." by Mr. jazhawk

This is true Mr. jazhawk, Mr. Salk and Mr. dwill,

Indeed, should anyone exhibit extreme competency in any endeavor, the U.S., or for that matter, the world is color blind to high achievement, high performance, and will stop at nothing to pay substantial assets for such competency.

Case in point, India is in the business of exporting for profit some of the sharpest young minds on the planet. Many Indians are as dark as U.S. citizens of Black American heritage, as it applies to anyone considered to be Black,... but guess what, Corporate America, Corporate Global Any Nation, bend over backwards, to accomodate these very talented individuals. Indeed talent has no "color line"

"She didn't backpeddle, she never said it!" by Mr. Jazhawk,

It is certain that Mr. jazhawk does not share the viewpoint or sentiment of those who continue to baselessly brand Condoleeza Rice as being as sellout, an "Uncle Tom".

Mind you Condoleeza Rice, Ward Connerly, have yet to contribute to the demise of Black America. The misdeeds, gross incompetence, sleaze, greed, selfishness, treason, etc., of Black America's own elected office holders, as applied to many members of the Congressional Black Caucus affiliated with the Democratic Party, has indeed contributed to the destruction or loss of property rights, family interests, very serious U.S. Constitutional rights violations, etc., as applied to truly law abiding U.S. citizens of Black American heritage, and/or otherwise.

It is ironic that Condoleeza Rice is being singled out, being referred to as being a sellout or "Uncle Tom", while absolutely nothing is said, done, or both, about the typical Black elected leaders, such as illegal holding elected office in violation of the Los Angeles County Charter 2nd District Los Angeles County Supervisor "Brentwood" Yvonne B. Burke, former Los Angeles City Councilman "Baffoon" Nate Holden, Compton "Famous for Nepotism at the expense of Compton" Mayor Omar Bradley, Mayor Wilson "Fire Bomb Black People Good" Goode, Cocaine Snorting former D.C. Mayor Marion Berry, Felon in Congressman Walter Tucker turned preacher, the many no good poverty pimping preachers, the no good NAACP...the National Association for the Advancement of Crooked Colored People, etc., etc., etc., play games, defame the very meaning of what it means to be an elected official, preacher, civil rights advocate, etc., to which the same crowd that condemns Condoleeza Rice, Ward Connerly, Clarence Thomas, praises those of Black America truly known to be misfits, sellouts, thieves, criminals, sleazy, carpet baggers, fraudulent, etc., all at the expense of the community of Black America.

Just Face It Conservatives are On the Winning Team Because More So Than Not Conservatives Are Ethical, Righteous, American, Trustworthy, etc. Many of the Liberals on The Other Hand, Couldn't Get it Up If Someone Paid Them, or Took Time to Show Them How, Because In Many Instances, The Mentallity of a Typical Liberal Keep Them in "LA LA LAND"

The Punch Line

Communities dominated by the Republican Party on the other hand control the wealth, promote the idea of "free enterprise", are not dependent on Affirmative Action, Welfare, begging for handouts, and/or spending their days blaming every one else for self-inflicted problems and/or the damage done by lack of any solution thereof.

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on June 27, 2003 at 06:27 PM.]
Lofton,

I have put so many holes in your dialogue it looks like swiss cheese...from you naming mentally ill behavior as how black people are, to lying your azz off about people being illegal, to not even being able to name anything specifically that people did who you drag through the mud daily....you are a psychopathic fool with misdirected self-hatred that you will never be able to detach yourself from....no matter HOW much you degrade black people....it will always be a form of self-torment........so take your azz over with those racist azz whites you keep running to for acceptance at the other board.....because a negro in a urban area supporting conservative politics is really really stupid....when your surroundings are a direct result of the disenfrnchisement of blacks via conservative politics.....go ask yourself lofton, why are their only poor blacks and mexicans in EVERY poor urban area of this country? why are there no large cities filled with poor whites....why are there no poor white inner city schools? go read about social engineering and realize what an experiment you and inner city negroes who think like you ended up being for mr charlie.........
White people like Barwick are great.....in theory...they can espouse all the correct things that anyone would agree with....but when it is time to practice that bs....they fail horribly....just like the founding fathers...they wrote that vainglorious azz constitution with "all men are created equal" and then went home to their slaves.......so until whites practice what they preach......i'm not listening to the sermon....at all.......
Kevin41, and/or anyone else of similar viewpoint!

I have put so many holes in your dialogue it looks like swiss cheese...from you naming mentally ill behavior as how black people are, to lying your azz off about people being illegal, to not even being able to name anything specifically that people did who you drag through the mud daily....you are a psychopathic fool with misdirected self-hatred that you will never be able to detach yourself from....no matter HOW much you degrade black people....it will always be a form of self-torment........so take your azz over with those racist azz whites you keep running to for acceptance at the other board.....because a negro in a urban area supporting conservative politics is really really stupid....when your surroundings are a direct result of the disenfrnchisement of blacks via conservative politics.....go ask yourself lofton, why are their only poor blacks and mexicans in EVERY poor urban area of this country? why are there no large cities filled with poor whites....why are there no poor white inner city schools? go read about social engineering and realize what an experiment you and inner city negroes who think like you ended up being for mr charlie......... by Kevin41

Not so Kevin41, because again the only one that you can rightfully speak for is Kevin41, to which even then your dialogue is much less than the value of a "red herring". As far as running anywhere for acceptance, truth does not hide from anyone. Unlike your contention acceptance is far from any goal that I may have, be it today, tomorrow, or 20 years from tomorrow.

Sharing factual information, sharing known truths, being ethical, accepting responsibility for my actions, praising those worthy of praise and condemning those not worthy of praise, etc., are very much a part of my demeanor.

The only thing that you have re-affirmed or confirmed are your own inadequacies, in being a "pompous", "Blame Everything on Caucasian America", AA begging, reaching for straws and wonder why you continue to end up empty handed, waste of my time, discombobulated Dr. Do Little Professor of Profanity.

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton
Lofton,

I see you are back to your little girly azz name calling again. If you were not an illogical, rambling self-hating fool I would probably address that nonsense you continually post. AA begging huh? I guess that would come from someone whose life is already over before they even die..and instead of just sitting in the back alley crying about black people...why don't you get your sorry azz out and do something with your life?....that way you may feel enough self-adequacy to quit blaming the problems you have that stem from a lack of personal motivation and personal afflictions on black people....and maybe then you can stay out of the white forums begging confederates to agree with you since your own acknowledges that you are a tormented fool....daily
quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixFemme:
Lincoln didn't CHOSE to free the slaves. Read the preamble of the Emancipation Proclamation. He was interested in ending the Civil War. If he could have done so without freeing the slaves, he would have done so. The Proclamation only freed the slaves in the Confederacy, it did nothing for slaves in the Union states.

It was under a Republican (Rutherford B. Hayes) that Reconstruction ended and Jim Crow started. It was a deal brought to appease the Southern states over his controversial election.

AA does not make blacks "feel" inferior, no more than whites feel inferior over nepotism. AA is a means to address past wrongs. Unfortunately, its original intent has been bastardized. With these recent Supreme Court rulings, hopefully its original purpose will be followed.


"If I could save the Union without freeing any slaves, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it, and if I could do it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also so that"

Lincoln CHOSE to free the slaves, and he and the Republicans felt that those who rebelled against the Union lost all rights to their land, and wished to give the "Forty acres and a mule" to freed slaves. Unfortunately, Andrew Johnson (democrat) strongly opposed this, and very few freed slaves got anything. Johnson set the stage for reconstruction, and for the next hundred years.

I quote, right from www.whitehouse.gov (don't even go saying it's a right-wing website, give me a break).

"Radical Republicans in Congress moved vigorously to change Johnson's program. They gained the support of northerners who were dismayed to see Southerners keeping many prewar leaders and imposing many prewar restrictions upon Negroes.

The Radicals' first step was to refuse to seat any Senator or Representative from the old Confederacy. Next they passed measures dealing with the former slaves. Johnson vetoed the legislation. The Radicals mustered enough votes in Congress to pass legislation over his veto--the first time that Congress had overridden a President on an important bill. They passed the Civil Rights Act of 1866, which established Negroes as American citizens and forbade discrimination against them."

That's right, Democrat president Andrew Johnson wanted to keep blacks restricted as they were in the south. A Republican congress overrode the democrat and passed the first Civil Rights Act of 1866, making blacks American citizens and forbade discrimination against them.

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Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
White people like Barwick are great.....in theory...they can espouse all the correct things that anyone would agree with....but when it is time to practice that bs....they fail horribly....just like the founding fathers...they wrote that vainglorious azz constitution with "all men are created equal" and then went home to their slaves.......so until whites practice what they preach......i'm not listening to the sermon....at all.......


Hell-O??? We've been over this one before. You will NEVER get all white people to not be racist. And you will NEVER get all black people to not be racist (as evidenced by the blatant racism of many on this board, who feel that the racism of random white idiots justifies them in hating all the white race). In that light, as I've been over before, I go to a 98% black church, many of my friends are black, and I've helped some succeed in the same line of business that I am in. I've done the same for white people too, and they show the same levels of success as black people, know why? Because we're not different, the only thing that's different is the stupid attitude some people have about how they can't succeed because they're ______ race. So, Kevin41, how am I not "practicing what we preach" in that "All men are created equal"? Looks like it's time for YOU to start listening to the "sermon".

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Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
quote:
Originally posted by Barwick:

Because we're not different, the only thing that's different is the stupid attitude some people have about how they can't succeed because they're ______ race.


Have you ever really heard anyone say those words? The fact that someone articulates the racism and discrimination that they face has no bearing on their drive and determination to overcome those obstacles. Black people achieve extraordinary things in America - not because there are no barriers to our success, but in spite of them.



Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.
quote:
Originally posted by Barwick:

So, Kevin41, how am I not "practicing what we preach" in that "All men are created equal"?


How convenient to profess allegiance to a "colorblind" America. The purpose of that talk is not to support equality, but to lock in the advantages and preferences that whites have extorted in this country.



Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Barwick:

So, Kevin41, how am I not "practicing what we preach" in that "All men are created equal"?


How convenient to profess allegiance to a "colorblind" America. The purpose of that talk is not to support equality, but to lock in the advantages and preferences that whites have extorted in this country.



Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.



So you want to give a handout to blacks, because why? Affirmative Action has been around since Kennedy, and it hasn't made much change in recent years. Would you like to teach blacks and other minorities that they're always going to get something easy because they're a minority? I have minority friends who despise AA because everyone thinks they got into and through college because of AA.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Barwick:

Because we're not different, the only thing that's different is the stupid attitude some people have about how they can't succeed because they're ______ race.



Have you ever really heard anyone say those words? The fact that someone articulates the racism and discrimination that they face has no bearing on their drive and determination to overcome those obstacles. Black people achieve extraordinary things in America - not because there are no barriers to our success, but in spite of them.



Yes, I've heard many people say those words. Even though I've listed many examples of black men and women who've succeeded in this country, and they still say they can't do it because people will discriminate against them. OF COURSE THEY WILL, THERE'S IDIOTS OUT THERE. People discriminate against me all the time because I'm 22 years old. In spite of that I own a successful business. I point this out to them but they don't want to hear it.

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Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
Barwick posted,

So you want to give a handout to blacks, because why? Affirmative Action has been around since Kennedy, and it hasn't made much change in recent years. Would you like to teach blacks and other minorities that they're always going to get something easy because they're a minority? I have minority friends who despise AA because everyone thinks they got into and through college because of AA.


*That is some standard racist rhetoric for those who are trying to make blacks feel guilty for amerikkka attempting to right the inequties IT created and IT allowed those same inequities to be passed down. You overlook past inequities such as open enrollemnt for whites in colleges and closed doors for blacks at the same time....you are too young to understand what kind of snowball effect that has o subsequent generations that are born in unequal conditions and educational levels for the parents. I attended a lilly white private college that had to institute AA for students AND faculty, that is how lilly it was...I walked out of there with a doctorate, a 3.89 GPA, several fellowships and even taught there while there....now what white person is going to make me feel like I was given something because AA was needed to make racist azz white people stop their historical practices? Was there nOT supposed to be an effort to place black faculty there when many black students started attending at all three levels (BS,MS, Ph.D.) If you look at mt graduation and "hooding ceremony" the one thing they said is that I worked HARDER than everyone and THEY had to keep up.......I knew that going in because I was black...but you people know that black students face resentment by whites and you want to talk stupid like we get to work less anyway and still get what whites get out of the deal. That is some real asinine BS. Now I have attended black colleges and state colleges also....so why in the hell would i listen to any disparaging bullshiit racist whites have to say when I have always scored higher than them and anyone else....since the second grade. You people need to quit trying to stigmatize blacks as less than you because we can do anything anyone else can when all is equal and access to resources are the same....you know that and that is why you fight against equal opportunity....or do you think black students fall under whites in scores across the board? if so, you need to be enlightened...bigtime

And by the way, the number of blacks graduating from colleges doubled between 1985-2000, so how do you say that change has not occurred....although AA is not spcifically responsible, it has helped in many cases. Why do you not speak of the whites who scored lower than the white chick in the UM lawsuit? Why do you not speak of white women as the biggest beneficiaries of AA? You know why? Because it is the racist way any white people think without being aware of the fact.....as long as there is white benefit, you people remain eerily silent. As soon as you feel that blacks are starting to come up on even footing, there is always a problem.......white people for the most part think no different than they did 50 years ago....they have just toned down the overt rhetoric.....and no one black is saying what they CAN'T do because of racism, they are just tired of putting up with white people's bullshiit....no matter who they are....right wing, left-wing or no wing....period

And to realy sum it up....you are 22....i have been involved in higher education as a student or professor for about 21 years...and i'm not old at all......go figure.........you and others need to really do your research before you espouse that O' Reilly brand of talk....because you all talk from a very uninformed premise that leaves out many facts....I do not like talking with you all because you try to talk to black people like they are ignorant....and when we fill in the blanks for you...then you have to go silent in order not to make a bigger azz out of yourselves....so if you really want to know the story behind AA, what it REALLY is, and how it REALLY supposed to work and how it REALLY has had results and how white women have REALLY comandeered it.....do your homework and see for yourself......
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
You people need to quit trying to stigmatize blacks as less than you because we can do anything anyone else can when all is equal and access to resources are the same....you know that and that is why you fight against equal opportunity....or do you think black students fall under whites in scores across the board? if so, you need to be enlightened...bigtime

And Barwick,

to even fix your mouth to compare your social reality to that of blacks in america makes you very un-informed young man....very


Part 1: How'd you know that? You're right, I oppose affirmative action because I'm afraid that blacks are going to take over the world because they can succeed too then... Roll Eyes I've got news for you.. Affirmative Action is... *ding* RACISM. The very thing you try to oppose. How about instead of going out and forcing a blanket on everybody, you enforce the laws ALREADY IN PLACE that prohibit discrimination?

I used my example of being 22 years old and owning a successful business because people on here say that blacks haven't been "paid back" from Jim Crow laws and slavery. In 22 years on this planet, I have taken 2 of those years and built a successful business. And people are trying to tell me that after 30+ years of no Jim Crow laws, they aren't able to dig out from the discrimination of the past? I'm not priveledged, believe me. Everything I've got I've had to work incredibly hard for, and you don't know my situation so don't go saying "you're white so you're priveledged". I've sacrificed, instead of going out to play with my friends, I would work on my school studies, or instead of going out with my wife every night, I would build my business. I despise those who say that after 30+ years, blacks haven't been able to dig out from under the Jim Crow laws.

Point 2: There's a couple dozen black men and women that have done the same thing as me in about 2 years. What's your excuse for not being able to do the same with your near fifty years on this planet?

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Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
BARWICK...

Affirmative Action IS NOT RACISM...

Look up the DAMN definitions of BOTH!
Hell... I'll do it for you!
  • rac·ism Date: 1936
    1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

  • affirmative action Date: 1965
    : an active effort to improve the employment or educational opportunities of members of minority groups and women

    © 2001 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
NOAH & I posed some very pertinent questions or rather EQUATIONS/Story Problems. DO THE MATH!
The world we live in now did not appear suddenly out-of-a VaCcuum! The school you went to, the community in which you live, all of the amenities/activities/OPPORTUNITIES came from THE PAST or have their impetus in it.

The same is true for every aspect of race-relations.

Looking at those definitions, tell me where is the SUPREMACY component in AFFIRMATIVE ACTION??? What part of "an active effort to improve" DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND??

At least if you're gonna come on here wolfin' like you're the only intelligent person on this board you should know and work from the ACTUAL DEFINITIONS of the words you use!

No racism doesn't have to end in every person...
Matter of fact, as MBM suggested, most of us aren't fazed by racist individuals per se. Racism only has effects when someone IN A POSITION of POWER practices it to exclude someone on the basis outlined in the DEFINITION above.

BARWICK.... You Have NO Argument!
quote:
    The intervenors studied the admissions decisions during the year plaintiff Jennifer Gratz applied. They found many white students with lesser qualifications than Gratz were admitted. Of the 2,661 admitted students with lower standardized test scores and grade point averages, some ** _1,243_ were white ** and ** _725_ were black. **

    Affirmative Action Works Both Ways... (apparently!)

According to you, there should be 1,243 Whites at U of M that should feel "unworthy", stigmatized, and RACIST (against their own people)...... THAT'S 518 more Whites than Blacks who were NOT making the grade and "lowering" standards.

Where's your Crusade at NOW!

(How many times do we have to go through this?) Confused
Barwick,

When I was your age I was in grad school and starting a career as an EE, so being accomplished at 22 does not mean too much to someone like myself ....and i'm a ways from 50......do the math....so I have not been impressed and will never be impressed with too much based on the differences in whites being assisted in this society with less crdentials and blacks being discriminated against. ........and once again, you cannot compare the opportunities of whites and blacks.........that is why whites are given loans (business and home)with less income and worse credit. I know plenty of blacks your age with businesses but that still does negate the fact that there is racism and discrimination in other sectors of society that have to be rectified.
Well Lofton,
I see you have found solace with your confederate buddies...personally I think that is where you belong....in a group that hates blacks as much as you do...maybe you can all degrade blacks together until you have an group orgasm.

As so far as me being a racist.....well, I deal with people in a likewise manner.....so call it what you like, but maybe you will all find that common ground over there at pw.org. I deal with the ignorant and the intelligent in the same manner they approach me.....

So lofty,

maybe they'll give you an honorary kkk spot while you are over there....you should read the rest of their posts and see what they actually think of "your type".......
For the good of the order:

Lincoln did not choose to "free the slaves." If Lincoln was anything, he was not dumb! He used the words to disguise the fact. He couldn't free the slaves!! The United States had no jurisdiction over the Confederate State of America!! "The Confederacy" was an independent, and sovereign nation. By its own declaration and constitution. Clearly, Lincoln knew that. Therefore, the only "slaves" he had jurisdiction over were those enslave in States that were a part of Confederacy (Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri). And he exempted them!!

Let's keep the lie of "The Great Emancipator" out of the discussion. Nor was he a "humanitarian."

What Lincoln did do, with or without intent, was negate the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850. He created a "safe haven" for the slaves who could find a way to get out. He basically said, "If you can get out, we won't send you back." And he did that grudgingly!

Neither the Republican Party nor the Democratic Party has done any favors for African American-Americans. Both parties have done only what was needed at the time for the party to prosper.

Republicans call their party "The Party of Freedom." I already dealt with freedom Republican style. The 13th and 14th Amendments were trying to deal with reconciling power in the United States Congress, and forcing acceptance of the results of the war into the psyche of "The South." There were 4 million people across the land that had to be "brought into the mix."

The 13th Amendment took away the critical asset of the economy of "The South" --- slaves. You may remember, from your study of history, that the United States tried to do this when the Constitution was being developed. But had to settle for putting an expiration date on the legal importation of slaves. They didn't forget to take their per capita tax on the "commerce."

The 14th Amendment was about throwwing about one million votes into the power structure of all States with the impact being the greatest on those States with slaves. Remember, again, most if not all of the States of The Confederacy were predominantly African American-American, in population. As a result, most of those States became governments of and about African American-Americans --- the first Affirmative Action. It was called "Reconstruction." And then the fight was really on!!!

for you see, implicit in the citizenship conferred by the amendment, was the inherent RIGHT-TO-VOTE. But the right was never specified. The States jumped on this absence of specificity under the authority of the 10th Amendment. Untill this day, the States and the United States have been trying to restrict access of African American-Americans to the voting place.

A person you may be aware of, Rush Limbaugh (The Klaxon of Konservatism) recently got energized over what he called "a bad rap" being given the Republican Party. He had his researchers put together a recitation of the proof of the Republican Party's commitment to the rights of African American-Americans. He went down the list to the present day, which included the things I just discussed. His stellar researchers, whose virtues he regularly extols, did not mention however the outstanding work of the Republican Party in 1877.

Again you may remember, the Republican Party counteracted the power put in place by the 13th and 14th Amendments and their enforcement power in the Reconstruction Act. They cancelled the law. They did this in exchange for the Office of the Presidency of the United States of America --- and office they were vying for but lost in the Election of 1876. The Republican Party and the Republican candidate for President bought the votes of the Electors of Congress as reward for turning the CONTROL of the vote of African American-Americans to the States of the Confederacy.

DOESN'T THAT SOUND FAMILIAR?

The Democratic Party has not done African America any favors either.

Most of the icons of Republican Conservatism of today were Democrats. Democrats who beat, raped, murdered, and lynched African Americans throughout most of the 20th Century. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 happened because The Democrats had a choice between chaos in the streets, and The Golden Rule and the very real need to give Dr. King some kind of victory. Stokely and Rap were standing in the wings as the brutal alternative to European American repression. The Voting Rights Act of 1965 happened, because
the Civil Rights Act of 1964 did nothing for the vote of African American-Americans, and the Democratic Party could not withstand the static. Remember, again, 1964 was an election year. Johnson, remember? AND STILL, the Voting Rights Act of 1965 WAS MADE TEMPORARY!!

NOW AIN'T THAT A BITCH!!!!

MOST AFRICAN AMERICAN-AMERICANS VOTE THE WAY THEY DO BECAUSE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS SIMPLY THE MOST RECENT TO DO SOMETHING FOR THEM, HOWEVER RELUCTANTLY.

I almost forgot! Harry S. Truman. He integrated the armed forces of the United States. The only man I know of who did something of major significance to the place in American society wholly on his own, and against the cry of European America, Republican and Democrat, Independent, and otherwise.

AND HE WAS A FORMER CARD-CARRYING MEMBER OF THE KU KLUX KLAN.

Go figure!!

PEACE

Jim Chester

JWC

[This message was edited by Jim Chester on July 01, 2003 at 10:23 AM.]


[This message was edited by Jim Chester on July 01, 2003 at 10:28 AM.]
So by that paragraph (in all caps), you're saying that most African Americans vote for whoever does the most for them as a race?

This is either one of two things:
1) It's as bad as you say, and African Americans are hated all over the country, and need to band together to fight off the rest of the country from taking their rights. Because if they didn't, the average Joe on the street would just pull out his shotgun and shoot every black guy he saw.
or 2) There's a few idiots out there who are both in power and not in power, that are racist. The rest of the country for the most part isn't very prejudiced, and is actually trying to avoid prejudice in their lives. That being said, the African Americans who you apparently believe vote for whoever is going to give them the most benefits are simply puppets and dependent on some form of government to give them something?

It serves no benefit for a true business owner to reject a perfectly qualified African American man or woman. It only hurts him. 99.9% of all business owners I know would not do that. 99% of all business owners I know see the stupid racial tension going on in this country and realize that if people don't start accepting eachother as human beings and not as this race or that race, that this country is going to be fighting a literal race war in the near future.

---------------------------------------
Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
quote:
Originally posted by Barwick:
So by that paragraph (in all caps), you're saying that most African Americans vote for whoever does the most for them as a race?

This is either one of two things:
1) It's as bad as you say, and African Americans are hated all over the country, and need to band together to fight off the rest of the country from taking their rights. Because if they didn't, the average Joe on the street would just pull out his shotgun and shoot every black guy he saw.
or 2) There's a few idiots out there who are both in power and not in power, that are racist. The rest of the country for the most part isn't very prejudiced, and is actually trying to avoid prejudice in their lives. That being said, the African Americans who you apparently believe vote for whoever is going to give them the most benefits are simply puppets and dependent on some form of government to give them something?

It serves no benefit for a true business owner to reject a perfectly qualified African American man or woman. It only hurts him. 99.9% of all business owners I know would not do that. 99% of all business owners I know see the stupid racial tension going on in this country and realize that if people don't start accepting eachother as human beings and not as this race or that race, that this country is going to be fighting a literal race war in the near future.

---------------------------------------
Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.


The caps paragraph was the direct answer to your question. I did notice that none of the other information, apparently, mattered.

Regarding your conclusions:

I said nothing about African Americans being "hated all over the country." Nor "banding together to fight off the rest of the country." Nor did I even imply that "the average Joe on the street would just pull out his shotgun and shoot every black guy he saw."

I also did not get into the language of "prejudice." I did recite some historical fact. I point out to you that European Americans, like African American-Americans, vote for who is likely to do the things they see as being most beneficial to them. In African American-Americans, you see this as being "puppets and dependency on some form of government to give them something?"

Clearly, you have a sociological "ax to grind." You apply motive and attitude to African Americans you do not apply to Americans like you who are doing the same thing. When Africn American-Americans vote for the candidate who is likely to meet their agenda, it a HANDOUT? That's an interesting spin you reserve for others, and not for yourself, or those who look like you. What's the bias here?

And where did all this about "true" business owners you know not rejecting a "perfectly qualified African American man or woman." come from? I assume you are talking about "hiring." I didn't talk about hiring practices.

Are you simply a provocatuer? Or signifier? No matter waht is said, you end up in the same place. Usually such reasoning involves a persuasion of some kind.

What is your persuasion? What is your purpose?

Are you only about "heat and smoke"?

Don't ask why when clearly you don't want to know.

PEACE

Jim Chester

JWC

[This message was edited by Jim Chester on July 01, 2003 at 01:25 PM.]


[This message was edited by Jim Chester on July 01, 2003 at 01:31 PM.]
No, voting for someone who promises you the most benefits isn't called a handout, it's called dependency. Go check out the Cycle of the Body Politic, repeated by Benjamin Disraeli and tell me you don't see our country and the voting habits of people on that chart. It's certainly past complacency, I'd say to the point of apathy and dependence. THAT is what I think people are doing in this country, the poor will vote for whoever promises to increase social programs, the lawbreakers will vote for whoever is most free regarding the law, the rich will vote for whoever promises to lower taxes on them even though they would remove necessary programs to do so, ethnic groups vote for whoever is going to give them the most benefits, etc..

People don't look at the whole picture, they just look to "what's he gonna give me.. ok I vote for him". People like you and I (maybe 1 or 2% of the population) who look at the whole picture in the long run and determine how it's going to affect the whole country, WE do not elect our representatives, it's the apathetic, dependent voters who are swayed by "ooh he's promising us this" who elect our representatives. And that bothers me.

A famous philosopher once remarked that "the average age of the worlds greatest civilizations is 200 years. For a while the population and government govern well, but eventually the populace discovers that they can simply vote themselves money from the public trough. They then vote for the candidate who promises them the most reward. After that, the democracy always fails as a result of loose fiscal policy."

That is what is happening in our nation today. And that is why the founding fathers never used the words "Democracy" to describe this nation, except when they were describing the difference between a Democracy and a Constitutional Republic. Unfortunately, we've now got candidates who run for office simply to be able to vote their group (whatever it is, white farmers, black workers, union workers, poor rural residents, hispanic immigrants, whatever..) the most benefits. If people continue to vote for whatever gives them the most benefit from the public trough, this nation WILL collapse.

---------------------------------------
Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
quote:
Originally posted by Barwick:
No, voting for someone who promises you the most benefits isn't called a handout, it's called dependency. Go check out the Cycle of the Body Politic, repeated by Benjamin Disraeli and tell me you don't see our country and the voting habits of people on that chart. It's certainly past complacency, I'd say to the point of apathy and dependence. THAT is what I think people are doing in this country, the poor will vote for whoever promises to increase social programs, the lawbreakers will vote for whoever is most free regarding the law, the rich will vote for whoever promises to lower taxes on them even though they would remove necessary programs to do so, ethnic groups vote for whoever is going to give them the most benefits, etc..

People don't look at the whole picture, they just look to "what's he gonna give me.. ok I vote for him". People like you and I (maybe 1 or 2% of the population) who look at the whole picture in the long run and determine how it's going to affect the whole country, WE do not elect our representatives, it's the apathetic, dependent voters who are swayed by "ooh he's promising us this" who elect our representatives. And that bothers me.

A famous philosopher once remarked that "the average age of the worlds greatest civilizations is 200 years. For a while the population and government govern well, but eventually the populace discovers that they can simply vote themselves money from the public trough. They then vote for the candidate who promises them the most reward. After that, the democracy always fails as a result of loose fiscal policy."

That is what is happening in our nation today. And that is why the founding fathers never used the words "Democracy" to describe this nation, except when they were describing the difference between a Democracy and a Constitutional Republic. Unfortunately, we've now got candidates who run for office simply to be able to vote their group (whatever it is, white farmers, black workers, union workers, poor rural residents, hispanic immigrants, whatever..) the most benefits. If people continue to vote for whatever gives them the most benefit from the public trough, this nation WILL collapse.

---------------------------------------
Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.


What are you talking about?

Stay well.

Jim Chester

JWC
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Chester:
quote:
Originally posted by Barwick:
No, voting for someone who promises you the most benefits isn't called a handout, it's called dependency. Go check out the Cycle of the Body Politic, repeated by Benjamin Disraeli and tell me you don't see our country and the voting habits of people on that chart. It's certainly past complacency, I'd say to the point of apathy and dependence. THAT is what I think people are doing in this country, the poor will vote for whoever promises to increase social programs, the lawbreakers will vote for whoever is most free regarding the law, the rich will vote for whoever promises to lower taxes on them even though they would remove necessary programs to do so, ethnic groups vote for whoever is going to give them the most benefits, etc..

People don't look at the whole picture, they just look to "what's he gonna give me.. ok I vote for him". People like you and I (maybe 1 or 2% of the population) who look at the whole picture in the long run and determine how it's going to affect the whole country, WE do not elect our representatives, it's the apathetic, dependent voters who are swayed by "ooh he's promising us this" who elect our representatives. And that bothers me.

A famous philosopher once remarked that "the average age of the worlds greatest civilizations is 200 years. For a while the population and government govern well, but eventually the populace discovers that they can simply vote themselves money from the public trough. They then vote for the candidate who promises them the most reward. After that, the democracy always fails as a result of loose fiscal policy."

That is what is happening in our nation today. And that is why the founding fathers never used the words "Democracy" to describe this nation, except when they were describing the difference between a Democracy and a Constitutional Republic. Unfortunately, we've now got candidates who run for office simply to be able to vote their group (whatever it is, white farmers, black workers, union workers, poor rural residents, hispanic immigrants, whatever..) the most benefits. If people continue to vote for whatever gives them the most benefit from the public trough, this nation WILL collapse.

---------------------------------------
Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.


What are you talking about?

Stay well.

Jim Chester

JWC


I think it's pretty self-explanitory.

---------------------------------------
Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
Well Kevin41,

What works for some people may not work for everyone. Can't say that Nmaginate, Faheem, and/or Ricardomath didn't contribute to their own condemnation.

"I see you have found solace with your confederate buddies...personally I think that is where you belong....in a group that hates blacks as much as you do...maybe you can all degrade blacks together until you have an group orgasm.

As so far as me being a racist.....well, I deal with people in a likewise manner.....so call it what you like, but maybe you will all find that common ground over there at pw.org. I deal with the ignorant and the intelligent in the same manner they approach me.....

So lofty,

maybe they'll give you an honorary kkk spot while you are over there....you should read the rest of their posts and see what they actually think of "your type"......." by Kevin41

Those Who Go Looking for Trouble Find Just What They Seek!

....And Usually What Goes Around Comes Around, Those Who Throw Any Boomerang Get Hit With the Same Boomerang Thrown. The intensity of the hit directly proportional to the force of the boomerang tossed!

The Material As Posted Did Not Change, to Which the Audience Encompasses people from all walks of life, be it Caucasian, Black, Jewish, Athiest, KKK, Catholic, Affluent, Barely Making it, etc., from around the world, to which again I was treated both honorably and with the utmost in respect!

A person reaps what they sew. Virtually every member of that board spoke highly of me, treated with respect, and welcomed me back, which is more than I can say for the likes of Faheem, BuckWheat, and/or Nmaginate. But that is neither here nor there, because anyone who is truly righteous can go anywhere, and come out just as clean as they went in, which can not be said for Faheem, Ricardomath, and Nmaginate.

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

P.S.

Well BuckWheat to your disappointment the only individuals hit with the heavy oak plank, are Faheem, BuckWheat, and Nmaginate!

[This message was edited by Lofton on July 04, 2003 at 11:01 PM.]

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