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quote:
Originally posted by henry38:
Your education is mainly to help you get a good job and earn money it does not feature in your interaction with people you deal with in everyday life. You have to separate the two.


I also disagree with this remark totally. The value and importance of education is not limited to "getting a good job" and "earning money." A quality education can mean the difference between life and death. In fact, the growing number of black men disappearing and dying prematurely is directly related to their being treated indifferently and never having access to a quality education which is the foundation of a success in this society. As African-Americans, education should feature prominently in our interaction with others as well as our everyday lives, serving as a reminder that we can do what others are convinced we cannot. Black women often take pride in their educational attainment because not only are they deemed as intellectually inferior because of their race but their gender as well. Therefore, after having gone through so many obstacles to provide for themselves what black men cannot, shouldn't we expect for them to honor their accomplishments? More importantly, after having reached a certain level of success, can we expect for them to be attracted to a man whose motivation, goals, and interests are clearly incompatible with their own??? For example, I have an older sister who despite having a job that paid well, knew that she wanted to eventually be a housewife and to homeschool her children rather than place them in the care of government-operated public schools. So she discriminately dated only those men who had the same goal as she and earned enough money to care for her and their children while she stayed at home. The point is, adhering to traditional values is NOT FREE. Its expensive to live an 'Ozzie and Harriet' lifestyle. Her husband has his own business and thus can afford a stay-at-home wife.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by henry38:
Your education is mainly to help you get a good job and earn money it does not feature in your interaction with people you deal with in everyday life. You have to separate the two.


I also disagree with this remark totally...
I think that H38 was saying that men don't generally look at a woman and wonder how many degrees she has... I agree with you in that educational attainment is important, but not in the context of a relationship... I don't know too many guys who are going to care how many degrees you have attained before they ask you out... JMHO
quote:
Originally posted by AudioGuy:
I agree with you in that educational attainment is important, but not in the context of a relationship... I don't know too many guys who are going to care how many degrees you have attained before they ask you out.


In the past, men did not enter marriages expecting to be taken care of by their wives. It was understood that men work and women stay at home. Therefore, how much education a woman had and how much money she earned annually was not important. Women on the other hand knew that her and her children's welfare depended heavily on her husband's education and income since he was the breadwinner. That is why when a woman decided to date a prospective husband, how much he earned was indeed a factor to be considered. Women knew that how much a man earned was directly related to his level of education and ultimately determined if he was even ready to pursue a wife and family. Afterall, its no secrect that the more education (degrees) one has, the greater your income potential. This is true even today.
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quote:
Originally posted by CORINTHIAN1906:
...... The problem is that perhaps some people responding are not as educated, male or female, and thus they found the entire discussion offensive. "Surfingnymph."

Okay, see, if I wasn't about to begin my work on a doctorial program in Psychotherapy, I would have taken offense to that remark you just made, Surfingnymph (rolling all over the floor laughing)...
Ironhead... is that you??
Ironhead... is that you?? "AudioGuy."

We meet once again, AudioGuy. I believe you were the person that tried to subtly insinuate some kind of confrontation in the "Is AA.org an intimidating place?" forum. Is "Ironhead" the name you call newcomers because of comments they make, AudioGuy? It certainly seems to be the case since you didn't call, henry38, a long time member, an Ironhead for making a similar statement:


Some of us hold these higher degrees but in my three and a half years on this board I don't believe there has a ever been the need to announce it. Since this is the new trend by this time next year I would have my Ph.D so get ready to call me, "Doctor H38." LOL. "henry38."

I'm wondering, AudioGuy, since you have the capability to point out my comments amongst a thread of other comments, why you would call me an Ironhead when you didn't call henry38 an Ironhead for making a similar comment before I did?

I remember telling "SistahSouljah" that I would deal with each situtation of what she termed "discrimination" into consideration. I'm begining to discern between the ones that are members of this site for constructive interaction and the ones that may be on here to create conflict and confrontation like the other person, "Surfingnymph."

Are you on this site for constructive interaction, AudioGuy, or are on this site to instigate confrontation and discriminate against newcomers? Are you chosing me to be your newcomer target to haze into the community of AA.org? Please bring this to my attention so I will know which action to take of whether to stay or leave. I will tell you this, AudioGuy, I am not here for confrontation.
C1906, A degree in law gives me nothing, passing the bar exam give me a license to counsel people and practice law in California. I guess when you actually do get your degree you will be less sensitive about others who have been practicing in their given professions longer than you've been working to get yours.

Again, it seems that only you, took my comments and got "touchy" but then again your are entering a touchy feely profession perhaps you should consider counseling for your self.

"Amber: What a beautiful face.....will you marry me?"

To Nickcara "In the event that you are still in the business of finding a suitable, equally yoked mate I would be more than willing to offer my romantic services."

"Sandye, you hardly sound like a woman that should be single for the rest of her life or as you put it, and I quote: "...to concentrate my energies on building my business and becoming an enlightened woman of destiny - comfortable in my own skin and space." You sound like the wife I've always wanted."


Sounds like you have reached the limitations of your interpersonal capabilities, and are in need of unbiased, professional guidance to help you broaden your romantic horizons since you feel the need to hit on three separate women in the span of hours.

What is intriguing is that you ask Nickara why Vox wants her secretary but you do not posit the question to Vox himself who now wants a courthouse cafeteria worker.

H38 if you have to pay $4000.00 for a Russian Bride, then that means white slavery is big business. I trust you do not want to imagine who will be next?. Furthermore, what kind a man has to pays for a wife anyway. A sorry one in my humble opinion.

Rowe I think you are making good and vaild points but few of the men want to deal with the real question posited by Nikcara's question.
Everybody wants to re-word my question. What happened to freedom of speech? Why re-word it, when it is apparently a sizzling topic.

Amber: I could have sex with a dim guy anytime I want, been there, done that, bored with it. If all he can offer me is sex, then where are we really going except to bed. I like movies, opera, baseball, live concerts, I want somebody to share my life with sex is the easy part. Since you are still working on your MBA, all I can say is find your husband now!!!!

Surfingnymph: Thanks for your support my sister.

Henry: Russian women for $4000.00 dollars, you don't see something wrong with that? Scary.

Frenchy: Where do you find this stuff. That is crazy. Maybe this is what Henry is into?

Corinthian: I got my undergrad in Psychology, I would know if and when I need therapy. I know that therapy is great for people it helps. Everyone takes a different path to peace of mind. When and if I feel the need, I will certainly consider that as an option, but at this time I do not think I have reached the limitations of my interpersonal capacities.

AudioGuy: I guess it is about lifestyle, if a man does not care about what a woman does for a living then we should just stop sending our girls to school. If however, I man wants a partner in life and wants to enjoy what life has to offer, then perhaps two incomes are better than one. I guess I am looking for a brainy guy because I want brainy children. I don't know about you, but it is hard for me to be Black in America and I want to give my kids every advantage possible and that includes genetics.

Rowe: Like I have said the men on this site do not want to deal with what you and Sandye said, probably because you continue to slay them with your brain. You go girl!!!!!
quote:
Originally posted by CORINTHIAN1906:
The framework I laid out, I believe, would allow an honest assessor to be able to work out the problems regardless of what it actually boils down to. How do you think otherwise? Can you (and I admit this may not be the most useful way to frame the question) give an example of a possible "true solution" that could not be arrived at by the framework I suggested? "Vox."

I will reiterate the ... solution:

Nikcara, it may be in your best interest to seek counseling.


Ah, the can of worms is opening up around here... but to address your point about my post, I don't think my ideas left your proposed "solution" out at all. The point I made about the possibility of the impact of the woman's upbringing, environment, and the possibility of "overbearing personalities" clearly suggests self-assessment in all of its forms. Well, I take back the "clearly" part, because I may have gotten a bit wordy there. But if you dig thru all the excess verbiage, it's there...
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quote:
Originally posted by CORINTHIAN1906:
...Are you on this site for constructive interaction, AudioGuy, or are on this site to instigate confrontation and discriminate against newcomers? Are you chosing me to be your newcomer target to haze into the community of AA.org? Please bring this to my attention so I will know which action to take of whether to stay or leave. I will tell you this, AudioGuy, I am not here for confrontation.
I did not pick those particular words other than to point out how similar your posts are to that of a former member.

Your posts are amazingly similar to a former member, who coincidentally got banned the same day you joined... HHMMM

I think that Ricardomath pointed that out:
    "Coincidentally enough, you just missed IronHorse by 10 minutes. He was banished to the "?" forum by MBM, just 10 minutes before your first post on the day that you joined AA.org, on June 30, and hasn't been heard from since, not even in the "?" forum...
You are from Florida, he was from Florida... You are coincidentally pursuing the same degree... yada yada

If you are not the same person then... My Bad...

Sister Nikcara,
    ...but it seems like pursuing our intellectual heights made us undesirable to brothas in our age group who are similarly situated. Why is this the case.
Doesn't this statement make the assumption that your degrees have made you undesireable? All I am saying is that degree attainment has nothing to do with desireability. Men (generally) want someone who they can talk to, have fun with, relate to, go out dancing with or whatever. Men do not say "She sure is good looking, I wonder if she has a PhD?" or "Damn, I would love to ask her out, but she has a law degree..."

WE DON'T CARE... IT'S ABOUT HOW WE INTERACT WITH ONE ANOTHER...

What kind of degree you have is not going to make that interaction better of worse.

Degree attainment is about making life better for yourself...
quote:
Originally posted by henry38:
I don't know many women who would drive to pick a man - a single eligible bachelor - from the airport unless she has feelings for him. Are you sure this whole post is not directed at Vox and he is too slow to realize your feelings for him?
.

I should point out that the airport is extremely close to where Nikcara was driving from. She's literally as close as you can get to the airport without actually being in the airport. It would, literally, take you less time to drive that distance than it would take to walk from the plane to where the pickup point was. So, while I appreciated the lift greatly, it didn't involve the kind of climbing every mountain that Henry is implying would be indicative of a romantic interest.

And I'm sure most adults by now are aware that not every two single people are made romantically for each other.

quote:

from surfingnymph
What is intriguing is that you ask Nickara why Vox wants her secretary but you do not posit the question to Vox himself who now wants a courthouse cafeteria worker.


Did I say that?? What am I thinking?!? Too many cafeteria workers can read. I can't be having that!

(The lengths we sometimes have to go to to show somebody we're just joking...)

quote:

from Nikcara
Yes, this issue bothers me, but my friend and online community, I am not alone, there have been several posts that go directly to the point of my question. Yet, the issue remains the same. I can agree Vox that all of my argument in this thread is anecdotal, but when you are living it, it becomes really relevant in the here and now.

You suggest that the men who are having children with poorer women are giving the kids a leg up. How if they are not present in the child's life, how if they child lives one way and the father lives the good life, how if the mother goes into a deep depression because of the failed relationship is she going to be able to raise the child to be happy and healthy?


Of course you're living it, and I said plainly that it's one thing to be upset about it. But what I said was that when trying to figure out what's really going on, you can't afford to allow your pain to skew your perspective, to the point where you automatically assume that the problem lies solely in some deficiency with the men. Have the pain, feel the pain, but don't let it compel you to intellectual dishonestly when trying to figure out the problem.

I mean, come on. You allow the pain to enable you to think that men care if you have a law degree. Like AudioGuy just said, men just don't think like that. "Damn, you see that booty? Huh? What? She got a Ph WHAT?? Tch, man, that booty ain't all that after all." <-- I would put money on never, ever in my life hearing such a thing in all seriousness.
quote:
Frenchy: Where do you find this stuff. That is crazy. Maybe this is what Henry is into?


That picture went with an article posted here a few weeks ago. I vowed then to trot it out every time a Black man posted something about white women knowing how to treat a Black man better. I think Henry's remark was made in jest (at least I hope so!) and my reply was playful (somewhat). bsm

quote:
I guess it is about lifestyle, if a man does not care about what a woman does for a living then we should just stop sending our girls to school.


Hopefully, we're sending them to school for other reasons than to be attractive to men.
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"Damn, you see that booty? Huh? What? She got a Ph WHAT?? Tch, man, that booty ain't all that after all." <-- I would put money on never, ever in my life hearing such a thing in all seriousness.


I have. Not phrased that way (what is yall's obsession with booty?!?), but I've heard men say things like: "I'd love to ask her out but she's a Doctor and I'm a janitor." Men do indeed pay attention to degrees when dating (as do women). I agree/see that it doesn't make the woman more attractive/"wife material", but it's certainly considered. Asking someone what they do for a living/what degrees they have is our sly way of finding out what we really want to know: How much money do you have and are you in my class/league? (Hello Capitalism!... hee hee hee) We infer the answer to what we really want to know based on someone's occupation or degrees.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
quote:
"Damn, you see that booty? Huh? What? She got a Ph WHAT?? Tch, man, that booty ain't all that after all." <-- I would put money on never, ever in my life hearing such a thing in all seriousness.


I have. Not phrased that way (what is yall's obsession with booty?!?), but I've heard men say things like: "I'd love to ask her out but she's a Doctor and I'm a janitor." Men do indeed pay attention to degrees when dating (as do women). I agree/see that it doesn't make the woman more attractive/"wife material", but it's certainly considered. Asking someone what they do for a living/what degrees they have is our sly way of finding out what we really want to know: How much money do you have and are you in my class/league? (Hello Capitalism!... hee hee hee) We infer the answer to what we really want to know based on someone's occupation or degrees.


But come on, Frenchy. Do you honestly believe that the average female doctor wants to date a janitor? The janitor in your example is not turned off by the fact that she's a doctor; he's not "unattracted" to her anymore. If anything, he's figuring she wouldn't want HIM, and he's almost certainly right. Nikcara verifies that, because in this thread, she's talking about professional men as well. She's saying that the advanced degrees of the women are making them unattractive to the men.
quote:
But come on, Frenchy. Do you honestly believe that the average female doctor wants to date a janitor? The janitor in your example is not turned off by the fact that she's a doctor; he's not "unattracted" to her anymore. If anything, he's figuring she wouldn't want HIM, and he's almost certainly right.


He doesn't know what she would say, though I agree with you that a female doctor/male janitor combo is probably unlikely. He most certainly is not attracted to her anymore because he assumes that she will not want him because of her job/degrees/education. You stated that men don't pay attention to that stuff at all when considering who to date/pursue. And that's when I offered up my example.
This conversation has digressed considerably - this conversation has turned into a gender war - brothers against sisters. Certain people have chosen to take the opinions and statements of others and twist their words into dialogue that may not be consistent with what the collaborators intended.

Nikcara, considering the fact that I, too, have an undergrad degree in psychology as well as an M.S. in Applied Clinical Psychology, and about 15 years of professional field experience, I felt it was only necessary to offer my unsolicited advice.

Nikcara, in my professional opinion, you are far from being in need of the services of a Psychiatrist or a Psychologist. It may be necessary to seek counseling. There are numerous universities that offer free counseling to the student body as well as the public. The point is simply to seek unbiased advice in the effort to achieve a more broadened perspective in your romantic endeavors.

Counseling is just one avenue - of course there's always the avenue of seeking advice from friends and relatives. By seeking a solution to your problems by combining what you've learned from various sources you may be better equipped to deal with your own situations.

Having achieved any level of graduate or post graduate credentials of any profession does not make that person immune to the problems that affect us in todays society. Neither Dr. Phil's credentials nor his professional experience didn't stop him from being abusive toward his wife. There are some problems that I can handle myself and there are some problems that I would prefer to assemble a battery of ideas and opinions from various sources (friends, family, self-help research online, in a bookstore or library) and compile them with my own ideas in order to solve an issue.

Seeking counseling shouldn't be looked at as a last chance effort. Counseling should be part of the other tools you use in an effort to improve yourself and your outlook on life. If you can get a yearly checkup at your general practitioner's office, if you can get a regular teeth cleaning at your dentist's office, then you can definately drop by a counselor's office to discuss some issues that may be of concern to you.
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
AudioGuy: I guess it is about lifestyle, if a man does not care about what a woman does for a living then we should just stop sending our girls to school...
How did you get through law school with that kind of fallacious reasoning??!!
quote:
If however, I man wants a partner in life and wants to enjoy what life has to offer, then perhaps two incomes are better than one...
Of course two incomes are better than one... I didn't say that men were looking for unemployed gold diggers...
quote:
I guess I am looking for a brainy guy because I want brainy children. I don't know about you, but it is hard for me to be Black in America and I want to give my kids every advantage possible and that includes genetics.
Again, fallacious reasoning... Dating a brainy guy does not guarantee brainy children - with that kind of rationale we would still be enslaved... Lord knows our early forefathers did not have an "education"...

Again, I don't know you ar any of your girls, but if you (all) are looking for a specific kind of man, with a certain amount of letters behind his name, you are possibly missing out on someone who may be the best person for you, someone who would be the best father for your children, the best husband to you - all of which give your seeds a much better chance for success than income, but may not be a doctor or a lawyer... JMHO.

I, have it no easier in amerikkka than you, income does not make my life any less difficult... I am making a whole lot more that what I made when I 1st got out of college - sure, I drive a better car, live in a better place, but I am still of African descent... I still have to get stopped by the police because of DWB, I still get discriminated against in the job market, still get pissed off after dealing with some ignorant MOFO...

How much money I make does not mean that I won't snap as a result of some ignorant shit that someone does/says and some day end up in the loony bin... (kidding)
Corinthian: While I appreciate your unsolicited advice and am happy to see that I am "far from being in need of the services of a Psychiatrist or a Psychologist." [had to re-read that just to make sure I got it right laugh]

Audio Guy: You are not the only person who has trouble with my logic. However, I did graduate from law school, and am admitted in four jurisdictions to practice law, and have been doing so for the past 13 years as my only source of income. I win some trials and I lose some, but on balance my clients are more than happy with my services or I would not receive so many new clients as referrals from old. So apparently, professionally, my logic is quite sound. This issue however as I have previously stated is an emotional one for me, thus as Vox says to me "You're logic is infused with emotion". I don't have a problem with that... Fallacious /fellatio, what an interesting word choice Audio Guy, especially in this thread.

I do agree that the conversation has digressed from being about a general group issue to all about me. That was not my intent. My intent was ask a question, that I think is relevant to a vast majority of Black women also in my particular situation. Many in this thread have suggested that they need numbers and statistics. Why when they know the Black women of whom I speak?

I see this issue as a problem, not just for me, but also for my girls who are in the same situation. Several very good arguments about this have been made and ignored by the contributors to this thread, such as :

Sandaye:

I lack the capacity to deal with a man who can not understand how hard I worked to get where I am and that I am with him because I want - and not need - a companion. .....

I love men and always will, but I am growing weary of the battles that seems to go on endlessly between brothers and sisters, and I refuse to play in the snow.

Rowe:

As expected, there is much discussion about modern women pursuing careers and absolutely no discussion as to why women, black women in particular, have had to pursue careers. There is no question that if a black woman today sat upon her ass and waited for a man to come along and place a roof over her head, waited to be feed and clothed, she would starve butt-naked. Unlike white women who have a large pool of successful white men at their disposal, African-American women are confronted with a harsh reality, at a very early age, that forces them to eventually abandon dreams of being well cared for by their husbands. Consequently, African-American women have reacted by educating themselves and providing themselves with financial security. Thus, whoever is writing these articles is not considering the social and economic circumstances of black people in general. Black women, especially those coming from low-income communities, simply cannot afford to rest on their laurels and wait on a "Prince Charming" to support them. And any piece of writing that chooses to ignore this fact cannot be taken seriously. ....

We would gladly, I said, GLADLY, assume our honorable positions as queens, mothers, and wives. In fact, I know plenty of black women who would like nothing better than to be, at home, raising their children, instead of dumping them off at expensive day care facilities while working three jobs to feed them.

.....Black women would like nothing better than to be at home with their children, fulfilling their role as mothers and wives, but life's circumstances prevents us from doing that.

....As African-Americans, education should feature prominently in our interaction with others as well as our everyday lives, serving as a reminder that we can do what others are convinced we cannot. Black women often take pride in their educational attainment because not only are they deemed as intellectually inferior because of their race but their gender as well. Therefore, after having gone through so many obstacles to provide for themselves what black men cannot, shouldn't we expect for them to honor their accomplishments? More importantly, after having reached a certain level of success, can we expect for them to be attracted to a man whose motivation, goals, and interests are clearly incompatible with their own???

....The point is, adhering to traditional values is NOT FREE. Its expensive to live an 'Ozzie and Harriet' lifestyle.

In the past, men did not enter marriages expecting to be taken care of by their wives. It was understood that men work and women stay at home. Therefore, how much education a woman had and how much money she earned annually was not important. Women on the other hand knew that her and her children's welfare depended heavily on her husband's education and income since he was the breadwinner. That is why when a woman decided to date a prospective husband, how much he earned was indeed a factor to be considered. Women knew that how much a man earned was directly related to his level of education and ultimately determined if he was even ready to pursue a wife and family. After all, its no secret that the more education (degrees) one has, the greater your income potential. This is true even today...

As this treads author I would like to redirect the conversation back to its original purpose a thoughtful discussion on this very important issue. Thus I will re-word it to the extent that the points quoted above are the thrust of this point. The situation exists, lets discuss it without stats or laser focus on one person, since it is bigger than one person, lets just deal with the issues.

Again, I apologize for not phrasing it better, I have to agree with Surfingnymph, this is an incendiary topic and hopefully by re-directing the discussion I can cool the flames. If not, we will end up with our son's in this situation depicted in Frechy's post. Need I say more?
Nikcara, I can't speak for the other people that have interacted on this discussion but I did find this discussion to be very interesting. Even though I did insert a little humor at one point, my overall goal was to help you accomplish your goal.

Call it occupational hazard but I can't sit here and let a sister that is "marriage material" ask a question, like the question you asked, and include herself in the equation, and not try to help rectify the problem at hand.

Regardless of whether your intension to focus the premise of the question you asked in a direction away from you or not, the point is you are a part of the equation. I simply asked you a question or two, you answered, and I offered a possible solution or two.

Whatever type of brother you and your girlfriends are looking for as a possible mate, you and your girlfriends deserve to be equipped with the right tools in order to best facilitate your matrimonial dreams and make them a reality. Sometimes, I takes hearing something you don't want to hear but you have to swallow your pride, listen and learn.

This doesn't have to be directed at you, Nikcara. You could use what I have provided and offer it to your girlfriends. You may be surprised, Nikcara - one or two of them may already be in the process of interacting in counseling sessions. If not, it certainly wouldn't hurt just to broaden your mind. If not, then try speed dating.
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
Audio Guy: You are not the only person who has trouble with my logic. However, I did graduate from law school, and am admitted in four jurisdictions to practice law, and have been doing so for the past 13 years as my only source of income. I win some trials and I lose some, but on balance my clients are more than happy with my services or I would not receive so many new clients as referrals from old. So apparently, professionally, my logic is quite sound. This issue however as I have previously stated is an emotional one for me, thus as Vox says to me "You're logic is infused with emotion". I don't have a problem with that... Fallacious /fellatio, what an interesting word choice Audio Guy, especially in this thread.
"...professionally, my logic is quite sound..." Okay... Johnny Wink

Logic is perfect everytime... emotion, however, is far more powerful...

Fallacious - based on fallacy...

Fellatio - based on supreme pleasure as the result of a good, uh... how shall I say... *cough* "job"...*end cough*

I see were you head is at... lol
Main Entry: fallacious
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: false
Synonyms: beguiling, bum, deceiving, deceptive, deluding, delusive, delusory, erroneous, fake, fictitious, fishy, fraudulent, illogical, illusory, incorrect, invalid, irrational, jivey, mad, misleading, mistaken, off, phony, reasonless, sophistic, sophistical, spurious, unfounded, ungrounded, unreal, unreasonable, unreasoned, unsound, untrue, way off, wrong
Antonyms: correct, substantiated, true, valid, veritable

Courtesy of Thesaurus.com

My amusement comes not from where you suggest my head is at,[which in and of itself may be another freudian slip on your part] but out of all the words you could have chosen based on your extensive lexicon, why fallacious, surely illogical or unfounded would have been better words since you were questioning my logic.

Indeed, instead of saying "I see were you head is at... " you might have said perhaps " I see that you mind is in the gutter." or "I can tell what you are thinking about". But you may just been joking after all. I however, was not joking because your response is amusing. You sound like somebodyelse I know.
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
Main Entry: fallacious
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: false
Synonyms: beguiling, bum, deceiving, deceptive, deluding, delusive, delusory, erroneous, fake, fictitious, fishy, fraudulent, illogical, illusory, incorrect, invalid, irrational, jivey, mad, misleading, mistaken, off, phony, reasonless, sophistic, sophistical, spurious, unfounded, ungrounded, unreal, unreasonable, unreasoned, unsound, untrue, way off, wrong
Antonyms: correct, substantiated, true, valid, veritable

Courtesy of Thesaurus.com

My amusement comes not from where you suggest my head is at,[which in and of itself may be another freudian slip on your part] but out of all the words you could have chosen based on your extensive lexicon, why fallacious, surely illogical or unfounded would have been better words since you were questioning my logic.

Indeed, instead of saying "I see were you head is at... " you might have said perhaps " I see that you mind is in the gutter." or "I can tell what you are thinking about". But you may just been joking after all. I however, was not joking because your response is amusing. You sound like somebodyelse I know.


Does this mean I don't get a date? Wink
This topic is all over the place, but I am going to attempt to re-direct to the original poster's focus.

IMHO, I think that it is extremely important to perform the self-examination necessary to identify whether or not you are a person who is "prime marriage material", and if that is what you have done, you are miles ahead of the game, my Sister. Perhaps the divorce rates would not be so high if a person took more time to take an introspective inventory of the types of things that are important to them prior to entering into something as life-changing as marriage and children.

The answers would be different for everyone, of course, but at least a person would be empowered with the knowledge that their decisions have been made without the distracting interference from outside sources or traditional methodologies. Far too many people bind themselves to another individual out of desparation, neediness, biological ticking or other reasons that do not matter a bit after the "I do" is said.

Some people are better single. Some people are better childless. Some people are better married. It is a positive to know who you are and what you want, and don't you dare let any therapist convince you otherwise! Wink

Being intelligent is quite often a mixed bag for a female. A woman who can be extremely articulate in clearly stating what she wants can be perceived as aggressive, "bitchy", too picky, etc. On the other hand, IMHO, of course, a number of men are clearly intimidated by the very type of women that they claim to be desirous of.

I don't have the answers you seek, but I hear you loud and clear. Continue your quest, keep your head to the sky, and never compromise what you know to be true for you. When you reach your destination, it will be well worth the efforts you have already made - and are continuing to make - to ensure that you are shaping your own life and living it on your terms.
It is a positive to know who you are and what you want, and don't you dare let any therapist convince you otherwise! "Sandye."

No, of course not. You shouldn't listen to a person that has counseled and helped thousands of people solely through verbal interaction. It's up to the psychiatrist to drop the pills.

Only the sickos, freaks, and serial killers need therapy right? No wonder minorities, and women have some of the highest untreated cases of manic depression, schizophrenia, suicide, and a plethora of other health issues.

No - don't listen to a man that has a knowledgable background to the research and development, or the lack thereof, of a race of women that are least likely to seek and recieve mental healthcare - sisters.

I dare to quote further: "For ages 0-17, 18-20 and 21-39, proportionately fewer females access mental health services. Females ages 60+ have a higher access rate. This low pattern of mental health access is of particular concern for women ages 18-39 because rates of serious depression in women are highest during the child-bearing years and are double that of men."

"....Black women are less likely to seek and receive mental health care and share a historical fear and distrust of mental health treatment. 60% of Black women have symptoms of depression and their mental health is disproportionately impacted by violence, racism and economic insecurity."
quote:
Originally posted by CORINTHIAN1906:
It is a positive to know who you are and what you want, and don't you dare let any therapist convince you otherwise! "Sandye."

No, of course not. You shouldn't listen to a person that has counseled and helped thousands of people solely through verbal interaction. It's up to the psychiatrist to drop the pills.

Only the sickos, freaks, and serial killers need therapy right? No wonder minorities, and women have some of the highest untreated cases of manic depression, schizophrenia, suicide, and a plethora of other health issues.

No - don't listen to a man that has a knowledgable background to the research and development, or the lack thereof, of a race of women that are least likely to seek and recieve mental healthcare - sisters.

I dare to quote further: "For ages 0-17, 18-20 and 21-39, proportionately fewer females access mental health services. Females ages 60+ have a higher access rate. This low pattern of mental health access is of particular concern for women ages 18-39 because rates of serious depression in women are highest during the child-bearing years and are double that of men."

"....Black women are less likely to seek and receive mental health care and share a historical fear and distrust of mental health treatment. 60% of Black women have symptoms of depression and their mental health is disproportionately impacted by violence, racism and economic insecurity."



I felt it necessary to jump in now, considering I've been through psychiatric treatment, taken the pills, and have been hospitalized in a psych ward for my depression.

Not everything works for everyone, but let me say that a sista should at least give it a chance. The statistics Corinthian quoted are a damn shame. I'm not a sicko, freak, or serial killer, but I did need therapy. And it did help me to an extent. I can honestly say that I'd probably be worse off if I hadn't of went.

It's not cool to judge, and it's not cool to automatically rule out options that may help. I can see where the "distrust" can come from, but when you are in a life-threatening situation like that, you have to realize you can't always make it better by yourself.
Allow me to clarify my statement, please. I am not anti-therapy, I am just of the opinion that the original poster of this message is not in need of it.

I found the sickos, freaks, and serial killers remark particularly offensive. There is nothing that I said that warranted the use of that type of language when describing the types of people who are need of therapy or alluding that my opinion of therapy was adequately expressed by using those words. If you re-read what I said concerning therapy and re-read the entire post and keep things in their proper context, perhaps you will understand the point that I was attempting to make.

I think that there are many times when any or all of us could use a good therapist, and I am not putting down anyone who has been to a therapist, is currently in therapy, or will find themselves in need at some point in the future. Knowing who you are also includes knowing when you need help.

My reference to therapy is strictly my opinion in this specific matter and not my opinion of therapy in general. I am not attempting to further stray from the relevant issues raised in the original post and have this turn into a discussion on the value of therapy.

Good Lawd ... I need a drink and it isn't even 5:00!
Sandye: I understood your meaning without clarification. As I am sure you can tell, I am not troubled when people suggest that they either disagree with me or think that I need therapy. Vox disagrees with me often and I still consider him a good friend. I have never surrounded myself with yes people, and have even suggested in a different thread that I need to re-think my opinion about different contributors to this thread based on what they said elsewhere. However, you should be sure that I am very secure in my belief in self and my ability to do anything. Hopefully people will refocus on the crux of this discussion it will re-exhibit itself in a different thread stated in a less incendiary way [love that word, it is very visual]. Thank you for your support. thanks

Also B.I.T.C.H. is even better than W.I.F.E., I love them both.
I found the sickos, freaks, and serial killers remark particularly offensive. There is nothing that I said that warranted the use of that type of language when describing the types of people who are need of therapy or alluding that my opinion of therapy was adequately expressed by using those words. "Sandye."

Lets not be so naive about the subject that is at hand, Sandye, the subject of psychology. If you found what I said to be offensive then you are going to find that an immense amount of facts that I have uncovered due to research to be offensive. My reaction to your initial response was inspired by the countless forms of random sampling that have revealed the stigma, particularly by female minorities and black women: Therapy is for freaks, sickos, etc.

I'm not some passerbyer that enjoys engaging in pointless communication about psychology without having a considerable background and experience on the subject. The women's shelters in this country house women that were doctors, lawyers, teachers, housewives, and socialites - women that hold numerous degrees, had lucrative salaries, and had considerable power on the positions they held, They were all in denial of their mental condition and, to a great degree, many of them could function as if there was nothing wrong yet be a danger to themselves and those around them. We will just leave this part of the conversation idle.

Now, let's re-examine this for a second - I never suggested that Nikcara needed therapy. I only suggested she seek counseling. There is a big difference between counseling and therapy. A counselor is simpley a person that is qualified to a certain degree to offer an unbiased opinion. A person would recieve no more theraputic effect from engaging in conversation with a counselor than talking to one of us on this website, however, the point is to recieve the best possible opinion through conversation with a person that can help you reach a tangible solution.

A friend or relative may be able to listen well and offer good advice but they may also be tempted to tell you what they think you want to hear instead of telling you what you need to hear. That variable of friendship and kin is eliminated when talking to a counselor.

Suggesting that a person need therapy is another situation altogether. To suggest therapy would mean a person may need to seek the services of a psychologist to resolve issues that may be deeper than simple guidance of self-assessment.

The type of therapy, Nikcara, sought in creating this discussion may or may not have solved her desire to seek out female sympathizers and recieve affirmation, reassurance and understanding - create a "Waiting to Exhale" comradery. I think her attempt to do so may have, in some cases, failed because the brothers that interact on this site aren't going to let her get by that easily with such personalized, sweeping, generalized statements

Why did the brothers decide to make references to Nikcara when discussing the body of her topic? Primarily, because Nikcara place herself in the equation from the outset:

I have been wondering why so many of my sistas and I are in our mid to late thirties with no husbands and no kids.To me,we should be prime wife material but it seems like pursuing our intellectual heights made us undesirable to brothas in our age group who are similarly situated. Why is this the case. "Nikcara."

It didn't take a degree in law and it didn't take passing the bar in various states (need I copy and paste all of Nikcara's redundant statements of her credentials and professional accomplishments?) for us brothers to deduce that, Nikcara, was really referring to herself in her galant attempt to voice her angst in the failed and miserable romantic endeavors of her female counterparts.
Random Thought:

You should probably lower your standards. Men don't marry money, they marry the "best" options. To which entails beauty(in their eyes), down-to-earthness, and femininity. Yeah, maybe to women a couple more dollars enhances a gentlemens feature; but not so much coming from men. Yeah in your career you can "shoot for the stars" "the skies the limit". But in romance, you have to work with who you are and what you've got. Consciousness/Spirituality can scrub the ugly off of your attitude, disposition, and countenance. But neither it nor money can scrub the ugly off your face (joking). Seriously, every woman isn't going to be able to pull a Will Smith or a Shamon Moore. Work within your means.

End random thought


Your thought? Is that shallow? Simple-minded?

End random thought
Nikcara: I know you got it, and I also know that you were not unduly concerned. I consider this issue as timely and meritorious in and of itself and was optimistic that it could return to the forefront and continued to be examined and explored. The "sidebars" were becoming a bit too distracting. Perhaps another time, but I gave it my best shot.

My dearest Brother Corinthian: Simply because I am not in agreement with you in this particular situation does not reduce my opinion in this issue to one of naivety.

I respectfully request that you refrain from placing inappropriate labels on me if you again choose to call me out in a personal manner in a public forum such as this. You lack the pre-requisite knowledge of who and what I am, and I do not respond well to individuals who address me in a patronizingly superior manner.

You don't have to speak redundantly with regard to your qualifications in your field or "break it down to Barney level" when addressing me as though you are speaking to an infidel. I heard you the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, ad nauseam times.

Heru: Random thoughts are brainstorms. Perhaps you hold the key as you are focused. Continue the development of your thought ... this could be interesting.
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I felt it necessary to jump in now, considering I've been through psychiatric treatment, taken the pills, and have been hospitalized in a psych ward for my depression. "SistahSouljah."

I must commend you, Sistah, for your courage in being candid about overcoming your situation. The number of people - the number of women - the number of black women that have the fortitude, resiliancy, and strong sense of selflessness - putting themselves in the line of fire to dispell the myths and stigmas of seeking mental wellness are few and far between. It is a quality in you, SistahSouljah, that must be emulated by others.

It's not cool to judge, and it's not cool to automatically rule out options that may help. I can see where the "distrust" can come from, but when you are in a life-threatening situation like that, you have to realize you can't always make it better by yourself. "SistahSouljah."

You are absolutely correct, Sistah, and, furthermore, it is a good practice to look at mental wellness as a preventive measure simply because: "...you can't always make it better by yourself."

Whether it's merely visiting a counselor for simple guidance on minor social issues or needing services from a liscenced psychologist to recieve periodic therapy or in need of a psychiatrist where medication may be necessary, it is important to look at mental wellness as a preventive measure instead of a last chance effort. Once again, SistaSouljah, I commend you for your candidness.
My dearest Brother Corinthian: Simply because I am not in agreement with you in this particular situation does not reduce my opinion in this issue to one of naivety. "Sandye."

Sandye, there really is no need to be defensive. My response to your comment had nothing to do with you not disagreeing with me, furthermore, you couldn't effectively disagree with me if we are talking about two different subjects. The point is a distinction must be made between seeking counseling of your own accord or being placed in a position of needing therapy.

If a person is simply experiencing difficulty in his or her romantic life it doesn't mean that it's time to sit on a couch and go into a series of deep sessions about a person's childhood. It may be a simple case of finding a counselor that may specialize in interpersonal issues that may guide you to the best possible solution. It is mearly an option not an introduction to a pyramiding scheme or an advertising offer that may cost you if you sign on the dotted line.

It may take as little as one visit to get a person on the right track to romantic success. If a person has established a platonic connection with his or her counselor the person may even be inclined to make a follow-up visit to let his or her counselor know if she or he was successful after receiving advice.

Even at the level of receiving therapy from a psychologist or a psychiatrist, it isn't their job to "convince" a patient of anything.

I respectfully request that you refrain from placing inappropriate labels on me if you again choose to call me out in a personal manner in a public forum such as this. "Sandye."

There was no inappropriate label placed on you, Sandye. There is a world of difference between being "naive" about a certain subject and being "naive" in general. You were simply being naive about the subject of therapy or, more specifically, the levels of social wellness that can be achieved without having to go the classical black leather couch route or the infamous "take two of these and call me in the morning" route.

Knowing who you are also includes knowing when you need help. "Sandye."

Not necessarily the case, Sandye. A person may give the outward appearance of knowing who they are through learned behavior yet, intrensically, they may have a dire need for mental wellness intervention. In contrast, a person could have a very good sense of who they are and not be aware of needing some type of professional, unbiased guidance.
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Hmmm. Defensive now. Interesting. Would you be so kind, my dearest brother Corinthian, as to tell me what I am thinking right now? As you seem to know me so well, I am sure that would not be a problem. Feel free to send an invoice for services rendered to my office. Use the Post Office Box address - I'm sure you know that as well.

Have a terrific day, my Brother.
quote:
Originally posted by HeruStar:
I think a counselor would have a couple more questions before making such a rash decision. I don't even think you asked any questions before you started throwing out tickets to the psych's office.


Before I respond to your post, HeruStar, I feel the need to say this: Perhaps in the event of saying that I was a psychologist, perhaps I should have inserted a disclaimer as a signature instead of my fraternity's slogan.

Even though I may answer a few questions from a casual yet clinical point of view, and I may ask a few questions, like I said with, Rowe, I will not resort to setting up shop and taking my work home with me.

I refuse to resort to defining my conversations in a clinical sense primarily because, first of all, it isn't my place to do so on this site. Secondly, it is an issue of confidentiality. Thirdly, in my opinion, it would be unethical to impose clinical practices in such an open arena. Lastly, 90% of my clinical effectiveness stems from reacting to a person's body language and tone of voice as well as having developed a one-on-one relationship with that person, and having a case history. I wouldn't presume to "know" someone on a website that is not only anonymous but may be planting misleading seeds from the inception of a discussion.

Back to you, HeruStar: As far as questioning someone is concerned, I already questioned, Nikcara, as to the reason why she has been unsuccessful in her attempts to secure a long-lasting relationship with a black man. There was no need to question her any further than the questions I already submitted to her as her responses to my questions gave me enough information to suggest seeking out a counselor.

If you had followed the thread well enough you would have noticed that I made a clear distinction as to the difference between going to a counselor, going to a psychologist, and going to a psychiatrist. If you had followed the thread alittle closer, you would have also noticed that I told, Nikcara, in my professional opinion, her dilemma would hardly warrant a visit to a psychologist or a psychiatrist.

A counselor merely performs as a sounding board - a neutral party that can offer unbiased suggestions and opinions that would be more tailored to what a person needs to know rather than what a person wants to hear, the latter being what friends and family are more inclined to do.

Engaging in conversation with a counselor is no more than you and I having a conversation on a particular subject that concerns you except a counselor would be better equipped to focus on concrete solutions instead of speculations and guesswork.

I am not a counselor, I'm a psychologist, therefore, my interaction with a person would be more indepth, prolonged, and more focused on uncovering past or present problems that manifested the surface issues a person is currently struggling with.

If I were a cardiovascular surgeon on this site, I would probably give some initial advice on the symptoms a person might be having with breathing problems but I wouldn't go into detail about diagnosing a person I'm in casual conversation with on a website. It would be more ethical to advise a person to seek the proper care from a doctor - a general practioner - rather than take it upon myself to do so.

In my case, as I've said before, I may ask or answer a few questions in the event of a casual discussion but I wouldn't go into any further depth, especially not on a clinical level, with an anonymous person on a website about issues that may be considered personal to the person in question. I would prefer to direct that person to someone they can engage in person.
quote:
"Why can't the single black men that we want commit to a real relationship with educated sistas?"


quote:
If Vox and you are buddies offline, and both of you are single then why is Vox wanting your secretary?????


Corinthian you lie. These were the questions you asked. Before this statement...

quote:
Nikcara: I've read your "anecdotal" thread. If you consider yourself to be "prime wife material" and you've persued all avenues of social interaction i.e. internet dating, match maker services, nightclubs, book clubs, church, social clubs, art museums, etc., and you still come up empty-handed then it's time to take the next step--self-assessment.


This is not a question. It's a suggestion.
Corinthian: Thank you for not using my name in your obvious response to my post. I would have jumped all over your comment "I wouldn't presume to "know" someone on a website that is not only anonymous but may be planting misleading seeds from the inception of a discussion I have now been referred to as naive, defensive and a potential liar. I am not one of your patients, and did not give you permission to assess me. I respectfully request that you discontinue your "online practice" and close my file. You are completely clueless.

If you re-read my posts, you will note that I have gone to the extreme to address you with the utmost respect, and have not received one ounce of that respect in return. That's okay with me, as I don't require outside validation and I do not allow the manner in which a person treats me to dictate the manner in which I respond. Your patients, however, may require outside validation and I hope that you have the ability to step outside of yourself and give it to them and interact with them respectfully.

IMHO, You represent yourself as a self-centered, pompous, disrespectful, close-minded individual. You have effectively "hijacked" this thread and self-servingly turned it into a subject that was of interest to you. Further, once your opinion was stated, you did not give the original poster the courtesy of allowing discussion of the topic to return. Several posters made attempts to do so, but you always found a way to divert the focus back to yourself. You have added nothing of substance to this topic, so why don't you give my Sister Nickara the respect she deserves and back up out of this one and create a new one that addresses subjects that you wish to discuss.

I hope that you do not interact with the individuals you serve in the same manner that you interact with members of this forum. If my limited observations hold any degree of merit, you could potentially do more harm than good. I have great compassion for anyone receiving services from you.

You and brothers like you have brought me to the place that I fully intend to remain single for the rest of my life. IMHO, brothers like you are so full of themselves that there is no room for anyone else. Perhaps therein lies a partial answer to one of the questions that Sister Nickara raised.

Heru: Thank you, my Brother. Smile
quote:
Originally posted by Sandye:
...you will note that I have gone to the extreme to address you with the utmost respect, and have not received one ounce of that respect in return...

...You represent yourself as a self-centered, pompous, disrespectful, close-minded individual. You have effectively "hijacked" this thread and self-servingly turned it into a subject that was of interest to you. Further, once your opinion was stated, you did not give the original poster the courtesy of allowing discussion of the topic to return...


Sandye, Corinthian=Ironhorse... They are one and the same... that should explain a lot...

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