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After reading the poll question, I chuckled to myself because if you think you are having trouble in your 20's and 30's just think what those of us in our 40's and 50's are going through. Check out the article below:

WHY ARE BLACK WOMEN SCARING OFF BLACK MEN?


by Tina Lester

Have you met this woman? She has a good job, works hard and earns a good salary. She went to college, got her master's degree: she is intelligent. She is reasonable, articulate, well read, interested in everybody and everything. Yet she's single.


Or perhaps you recognize the community activist. She's a black lady, or as she prefers, an African American woman on the move. She sports a short natural, sometimes corn-row braids or dreadlocks. She's an organizer, a motivator, and a dynamo. She works for her people. She organizes women for a self-help, raises funds for the community cause, and educates others around about new issues in South Africa. Black folks look up to her and white folks know she's a force to be reckoned with, yet once again the men leave her alone.


What do these women have in common? They have so much: what is it they lack? Why is it they may be able to hook a man but can't hold him?


Women puzzle over this quandary themselves. They gather at professional clubs, at sorority meetings or over coffee at the office and wonder what's wrong with black men. They hold special prayer vigils, fasting and praying and begging Jesus to send the men back to church. They find the brother who is attending political strategizing sessions or participating in protests, but when it comes time to go home, he goes home to someone else. I know these women because I am all of these women, and after asking over and over again "What's wrong with these men?" it finally dawned on me to ask, " What's wrong with us women?"


What I have found and what many of these woman have yet to discover, is that the skills that make one successful in the church, community or workplace are not the skills that make one successful in a relationship. Linear thinking, self-reliance, structured goals and direct actions assist in getting assignments done. It helps to organize church or club activities and in positioning oneself for a raise. But relationship building requires different skills. It requires making decisions that not only gratify you, but also satisfy others. It means doing things that will keep the peace rather than achieve the goal. Sometimes it means creating the peace in the first place. Maintaining a harmonious relationship will not always allow you to take the straight line between two points. You may have to stoop to conquer or yield to win.

Oftentimes when dealing with men you will have to sacrifice being right in order to enjoy being loved. Being acknowledged as the head of household is an especially important thing for many black men, since their manhood is so often actively challenged everywhere else. Many modern women are so independent, so self-sufficient, so committed to the cause, to the church, to career or their narrow concepts of same, that their entire personalities project an "I don't need a man" message. Consequently they end up without one. An interested man may be attracted but soon discovers that this sister makes very little space for him in her life. Going to graduate school is a good goal and an option that previous generations of blacks have not had. But sometimes the achieving women will place her boyfriend so low on her list of priorities that his interest wanes. Between work, school and homework, she's seldom "there" for him on the outset when a man should develop a commitment to a woman. She's too busy to prepare him a home-cooked meal or to be a listening ear because she is so occupied with her own concerns. Soon he uses her only for uncommitted sex since to him she appears unavailable for anything else. Blind to the past she plays in her mind and ends up thinking. "Men only want one thing." And she decides she's better off with the degree than the friendship.



When she's 45 she may wish she had set different priorities while she was younger.


However, it's not just the busy career girl who can't see the forest for the trees. A while ago a couple I know was having marital troubles. During one argument, the husband confronted the wife and asked what she thought they should do about the marriage, what direction they should take. She reached for her Bible and the man took it and turned to Ephesians. "I know what Paul says and I know what Jesus says about marriage," he told her. "What do you say about our marriage?" Dumbfounded, she had no response. Before the year was out the husband had filed for divorce. Women who focus on civil rights or community activism have vigorous, fighting spirits and are prepared to do whatever, wherever, to benefit black people - that 's good. That's necessary, but it needs to be kept in perspective. It's too easy to save the world and lose your man.

A fighting spirit is important on the battlefield, but a gentler spirit is wanted on the home front. Too many women are winning the battle and losing the home. Sometimes in our determined efforts to be strong believers and hard workers, we contemporary women downplay, denigrate or simply forget our more traditional feminine attributes. Men value women best for the way we are different from them, not the ways we are the same. Men appreciate us for our grace and beauty. Men enjoy our softness and it as a way to be in touch with their tender side, a side they dare not show to other men. A hardworking woman's good to have on your committee, but when a man goes home, he'd prefer a loving partner to a hard worker.

It's not an easy transition for the modern black woman to make. It sounds submissive, reactionary, outmoded, and oppressive; we have fought so hard for many things, and rightfully so. We have known so many men who were shaky, jive, and untrustworthy. Yet we must admit that we are shaky, jive, and willful in our own ways. Not having a husband allows us to do whatever we want, when and how we want to do it. Having one means we have to share the power and certain points will have to be surrendered.


We are terrified of marriage and commitment, yet dread the prospect of being single and alone. Throwing ourselves into work seems to fill the void without posing a threat. But like any other drug, the escape eventually becomes the cage. To make the break, we need to do less and "be" more. I am learning to "be." Stop competing with black men and to collaborate with them, to temper my assertive and aggressive energy with softness and serenity. I'm not preaching a philosophy of "women should be seen and not heard." But I have come to realize that I-and many of my smart and independent sisters-are out of touch with our feminine center and therefore out of touch with our men. The end.
quote:
Originally posted by Diamond:
Many modern women are so independent, so self-sufficient, so committed to the cause, to the church, to career or their narrow concepts of same, that their entire personalities project an "I don't need a man" message.



As expected, there is much discussion about modern women pursuing careers and absolutely no discussion as to why women, black women in particular, have had to pursue careers. There is no question that if a black woman today sat upon her ass and waited for a man to come along and place a roof over her head, waited to be feed and clothed, she would starve butt-naked. Unlike white women who have a large pool of successful white men at their disposal, African-American women are confronted with a harsh reality, at a very early age, that forces them to eventually abandon dreams of being well cared for by their husbands. Consequently, African-American women have reacted by educating themselves and providing themselves with financial security. Thus, whoever is writing these articles is not considering the social and economic circumstances of black people in general. Black women, especially those coming from low-income communities, simply cannot afford to rest on their laurels and wait on a "Prince Charming" to support them. And any piece of writing that chooses to ignore this fact cannot be taken seriously. What we've come to realize is that the traditional 'Ozzie and Harriet' family is becoming extinct in America and is presently nonexistent in the African-American community. What we have currently are single mothers and missing dads due to black men being ignored and mistreated by mainstream society and denied a quality education. If black men were treated as they should be and provided with a fair amount of opportunities, black women would not have to work. We would gladly, I said, GLADLY, assume our honorable positions as queens, mothers, and wives. In fact, I know plenty of black women who would like nothing better than to be, at home, raising their children, instead of dumping them off at expensive day care facilities while working three jobs to feed them.
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Ok, lets have at is shall we.

1. art_gurl: Learned that one from a Judge believe it or not. Thank for your support. I will be touching upon Tiger Woods in this one as well so read on.

2.Frenchy part 1: My Dad told me, when I was little [high school] don't worry, just go to school. College and Law school no discussion because I was dating a guy who I thought I was going to marry. Should have dumped his sorry ass senior year in college, lesson learned, never take a relationship to a new school. After law school when I was about 26 or so my Dad told me and my girls, two dentists, when he came down to my house at the shore for the weekend, that we needed to exercise, I weighed at that time 128 lbs, 5'4", dentist 1 weighed 170 lbs, 5'6", dentist 2 weighed 105 lbs at 5'0". Go figure, exercise is his answer for everything now and then. As for my future daughter, I have tons of advice, reams of notes, and lots of love letters/cards from the various ex's that she will find informative. As for the black middle class, can we agree that a single mother making under 35k is not middle class but working class. Can we also agree that middle class is easier to attain with two incomes.

3. Folo: I'm not gloomie, just inqusitive, you are the exception to the rule, thanks for appreciating the brainy girls.

4. Sandye: Preach my sister, Preach!!!!!! thanks

5. Virtue: I got WIFE from a Judge during a criminal trial I where I was the prosecutor, Black Judge, Black Prosecutor, Black Defense Counsel, Black Defendant, Black Jury execpt for 4 people. Yes, I got the Guilty Verdict.

I do not equate intelligence with a degree, since I grew up Black in America and I know the struggles that my people have gone through to get any recognition. The issue of the degree however, seems to come up as a negative in this thread and that I do take exception to.

6. Audio Guy: Please re-read my orginal question, your observation in incorrect. The issue about station has nothing to do with physical attractiveness. I tried, apparently unsuccessfully to negate what the women look like and only deal with thier commonality, highly educated, great career and no kids. Men say that hate Baby Daddy Drama, these women have none, they say that want a woman who has her own money so they don't have to spend thiers, they have "independant means" just like the Ray Charles song says. So what is the problem with the men?

Do you really think that the average secretary is on the same intellectual level as the average Doctor?

While I never discuss my salary, or his for that matter, I should not have to hide my career. Contrary to popular belief, all attorneys are not rich, self supporting, probably, discretionary income, probably but not rich. The fact remain, I am a Black attorney and most of my clients are Black people and because of thier employment they only make so much and I have to charge accordingly. Which is why I think it is so funny to see Black people with white attorneys, but that is another question for another day. Most white attorneys in private practice in NJ make 300 to 400 per hour, I do not come close to that even in court time, and neither do most Black attorneys that I know. Are there some, yes, but I can only name 4 and they are partners at major firms {100 plus attorneys} or big time criminal defense attorneys.

7. HeruStar: You admitted you were insecure, not me. I never suggest anything about you, I did suggest that you have poor insight and that I standby based on your post. Now you say that I suggest your are weak-willed, weak minded and ill advised. Please do not project and attribute to me what you think I think, I say what I mean very well for myself, thank. But not that you suggest that you are weak-willed, weak-minded and ill advised, I will readily agree with your self assessment.

Condi Rice is todays, Sally Hemmings, Maya Angelou is brilliant, and that brilliance has nothing to do with her phycical appearance, her essense is charismatic, so on her we agree. By the way though, she did earn a Ph.D., in case you did not know.

Finally, you are free to post your own question but not at liberty to re-word mine.

As for the pre-nup: I had clients recently married,both with kids from prior relationships, we did an ante-nuptial agreement regarding the real estate they aquired so that their non joint children could not be shut out by the other party incase of death. Plus, pre-nups work for Donald Trump. If done correctly, they actually work the same as vows in action and do not always deal sole with financial matters. Most pre-nups make marriages work for the right reasons, full disclosure is always good for the soul. See in New Jersey we have this thing called lifestyle, and for some men, it means they work for the rest of thier lives instead of retiring on time.

8. Ronin 10: .... gotta run to the airport but I will continue with your post next.
quote:
HeruStar: You admitted you were insecure

No I didn't. I've be called manipulative, egocentric, conceited, and chauvinistic, but never insecure, although insecurity may affect a man with those attributes, that's not the case for me, because neither are true.

I'm fully aware of Maya's accomplishments. I grew up on her books (kinda showing my age huh?)

I'm at the position that Financial, Educational, and any other Material accomplishment, should have a Conscious tone or spiritual background. To a conscious brotha a His woman's accomplishment are to be praised, and they don't phase his security level because her accomplishments are merely circumstantial.

I don't like it when a woman is raised to flinch at words like subservient and submissive. In the case of an educated sista I find that in most situations she is willing to submit, but not able. And the man is able to find an agreeable status in her eyes, but not willing because her accomplishments make him feel like he'd better watch his tone.

Well the question here is. Why can't... (commit). IMO, most men find it difficult to get comfortable, kick there feet up and relax in relationships with educated sistas. They (men) seem to have one foot in and one foot out the door. The woman aknowledges this, and does nothing about it, because her paycheck dictates whether she "needs" or doesn't "need" him around. It's only so long an alpha male can pretend like he doesn't care whether or not he's needed.
quote:
As for the black middle class, can we agree that a single mother making under 35k is not middle class but working class. Can we also agree that middle class is easier to attain with two incomes.


Yes, we can agree on those things. But I'm not seeing how that relates to my original point. You said that the Black middle class was in danger of ending in the next generation. I responded that I disagreed with that outlook because:

1 - Currently married Black middle-class couples are still populating the Black middle class

and

2 - Highly educated/accomplished/connected single women who are choosing to raise children by themselves (like the friends you initially mentioned) are also populating the future Black middle class

I don't think the low marriage rate of highly-educated Black women puts the existence of the Black middle class in jeopardy.

LOL at your Dad encouraging you all to lose weight from already small frames! Perhaps he was trying to gently nudge you toward making yourself more attractive to the typical white man, who likes 'em thin as a reed.

quote:
I do not equate intelligence with a degree, since I grew up Black in America and I know the struggles that my people have gone through to get any recognition.

(snip)

Do you really think that the average secretary is on the same intellectual level as the average Doctor?


Confused
Sorry, Ironhorse and Little Minx just missed ya'll like you did not post. My bad.

8. Ironhorse: Holding on is not working any more, I have been on two online dating services, I have talked to about 5 guys, been out with exactly three. The connection are great for friends for hanging out with, but I am well beyond college and thus well beyond the platonic relationship. I joined dating services to date not to make friends per say.

9. Minx: I am focused on men because I am not a lesbian or bisexual. You are attracted to what you know, my Dad is a Black man, why would I want something different for myself. Here it comes art_gurl.... Tiger Woods is confused because he calls himself Caublasian, what is that really except some serious self hate. It is hard enough having white kids call you names cause you are the only one in the school, now I want to add a parent of a different race? Sad but true, I went to school with a girl whose father was a Jazz pianist, she could only play with me at recess when her Dad was in town cause that is when she was Black, any other time she was White or so she thought. Now did she look white, no could not even pass like Jennifer Beals but you could not tell her that in the second grade. Need I say that I am loath to subject my future child to have to deal with this particular issue. Now the Latino Brothas, I would not mind mixing up some DNA with them, plus everybody has somebody that looks like me in their family.

10. Ronin: Why don't you ask your question in the Den and see what response you get. Yes, this question from time to time is an obsession of mine. If I could get a single Black Man that I wanted to commit to me do you really think I would have come up with this question. Don't you think that this question comes from the fact that when I think about me I get depressed and if it was just me I'd be really singing the blues but when I look my girls and then hear about thier girls and remember that NY Times article my Dad gave me back in '93 or '94, I realize that it is not just me and thus I am no longer depressed but I do want to know why.



11. Henry: I never suggested that because of degrees we should be prime wife material, I am saying that we do not have children, we have our own money, we bring something more than dependence to the table, I would say read what I wrote to to Audio Guy but I just basically wrote it here and frankly Sandye in her post of 6-29-05 3:06 am and Rowe in her post of 7-3-05 10:06 pm both say it better that I have thus far.

12. Diamond: Love the Avitar, totally disagree with the article, see Rowe in her post of 7-3-05 10:06.

13. Rowe: Preach my sister, Preach. thanks It brought to tears to my eyes. Truth crushed to the earth will rise. You and Sandye get it, and can express it well.

14. HeruStar2: Say what you mean and mean what you say. I call it like I see it. Again you continue to attribute things to me when you come up with the statements. Like I said, don't project yourself described image on to me and say the reflection came from me.

This one does come from me however; Perhaps I am just holding a mirror that is making you look at what and who you really are. Words do funny things like make you think, perhaps your circumstances have made you think that you are not the man you thought you were.

I don't mind fixing a mans plate or getting him a beer, drawing his bath or sexing him all night long. What I mind is when he thinks that is all I am good for. Doing something out of love is different from doing it to get by, but that goes to the little concept of equality you are having difficulty with in this discussion.

15. Frenchy: Come on now, the low marriage rate does not put the Black middle class in jeopardy. We will agree to disagree. If you have 100 poor Black women, 100 working class Black women, 100 middle class Black women, 100 rich Black Women and 10 super rich Black women: the pbw have two or more children each out of wedlock; 50 wbw have one or more child out of wedlock, 25 have one child out of wedlock, 25 get married 15 of those have two children a piece, 33 mbw have one child each out of wedlock, 33 have no children because they refuse to raise a child without a husband at the start, 33 get married and 15 have a max of two children each, the blance have no children at all, 50 rbw have one child 25 have one or more the balance don't have children at all. 5 out of the srbw have children. Do the math, the number do not add up in your favor. Note that rbw's and srbw's do not have to be married and because of thier money that can either be full time mommys or hire someone to do it for them.

What is confusing about the average secretary not being on the same intellectual level as the average doctor. It is the atypical secretary that thinks she can be a secretary and go to school at night to change her circumstance. Heck, my secretary wants to be an attorney, she is 23 with a six year old. She is going to night school now for her undergraduate degree and then she will go to some bodies law school. There are other secretaries, and that is all that they will ever be, they know their jobs, they make their bosses proud but whatever intellectual ability they have or had is stunted by inertia.

When I talk to people in person it is easy to tell who is bright and who is dim, dim does not mean dumb they just don't see what I see. I am sure to a mechanic I seem dim when it come to motors but if he or she sat down and discussed the working of an engine with me he or she would find that I could ask relevant questions to gain understanding. The ability to converse is not unique, what is unique is ability to get your audience to understand or for you to understand the concepts that are being presented. My former secretary, was just plain dumb, but I was desperate when I hired her.
And like Sandye said I took the hit. When I discussed this my one of my girl's who is a pediatrician and recently married to a Vice Detective, thank you, she said I can't get mad at my secretary because she does not have the same capacity to understand as I do.

Common sense and Intellectual levels to me are just expressions of logic. You can be trained in logic to use, it but you either have it or not. Kinda like beauty, you either have it or not. Kinda like the appreciation of music or are you either enjoy it or you don't.

Frenchy would you look at Oprah [pre surgery] or Star Williams and say they are as physically attractive as Angela Bassett? Why is the brain different? Why is it ok to call someone ugly but not dense? Why is it ok to say she's got a beautiful body but suspect to say she has a beautiful mind.

Hope I got to respond to everybody, on trial tomorrow so it may take a day or two but I'll be back. Thanks for all the responses even if I disagreed, they were good to read. Big Grin
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6. Audio Guy: Please re-read my orginal question, your observation in incorrect. The issue about station has nothing to do with physical attractiveness. I tried, apparently unsuccessfully to negate what the women look like and only deal with thier commonality, highly educated, great career...
I said nothing about physical attractiveness and I did not miss your point. All that I said was that education and career have nothing to do with your suitability as a mate in the minds of many men that I know. The fact that you are a lawyer or a doctor does not necessarily make you more attractive. Who you are as a person carries far more weight that what you do. IMO.

quote:
Do you really think that the average secretary is on the same intellectual level as the average Doctor?
I did not say that... I said that some women who are secretaries are not necessarily any less intellectual than a woman who is a doctor - just the training that they received is different.

quote:
While I never discuss my salary, or his for that matter, I should not have to hide my career...
Nobody said anything about hiding your career... I have heard other sisters talk about the fact that men are intimidated by career/salary, my apologies for projecting those statements onto your thread.
quote:
15. Frenchy: Come on now, the low marriage rate does not put the Black middle class in jeopardy. We will agree to disagree. If you have 100 poor Black women, 100 working class Black women, 100 middle class Black women, 100 rich Black Women and 10 super rich Black women: the pbw have two or more children each out of wedlock; 50 wbw have one or more child out of wedlock, 25 have one child out of wedlock, 25 get married 15 of those have two children a piece, 33 mbw have one child each out of wedlock, 33 have no children because they refuse to raise a child without a husband at the start, 33 get married and 15 have a max of two children each, the blance have no children at all, 50 rbw have one child 25 have one or more the balance don't have children at all. 5 out of the srbw have children. Do the math, the number do not add up in your favor.


Of course they don't! You pulled them directly out of your ass! lol

quote:
What is confusing about the average secretary not being on the same intellectual level as the average doctor.


What is confusing is that one moment you say you "do not equate intelligence with a degree" and a moment later you make an assumption about intelligence based on one person having an advanced degree (doctor vs. secretary). You contradict yourself.

quote:
Frenchy would you look at Oprah [pre surgery] or Star Williams and say they are as physically attractive as Angela Bassett?


I don't know who Star Williams is, but I do think "fat" Oprah is prettier than Angela Bassett. She has a softer, more symetrical face and gorgeous hair. But what does this have to do with intelligence? These questions are a matter of personal opinion, not an indicator of how smart someone is.
quote:
This one does come from me however; Perhaps I am just holding a mirror that is making you look at what and who you really are. Words do funny things like make you think, perhaps your circumstances have made you think that you are not the man you thought you were


You assume too much. I apologize for not being as passionate about this subject as you are.

Equality is not a problem. The problem is finding a compliment. Complimentary relationships nullify the term "equality". Complimentary relationships also eradicate the long lists of ridiculous requirements.

You're having a problem finding a "compliment".

I wonder why?

Peace Nikcara.....

Hmmmmm.....You are beginning to remind me of someone........




quote:
5. Virtue: I got WIFE from a Judge during a criminal trial I where I was the prosecutor, Black Judge, Black Prosecutor, Black Defense Counsel, Black Defendant, Black Jury execpt for 4 people. Yes, I got the Guilty Verdict.

I do not equate intelligence with a degree, since I grew up Black in America and I know the struggles that my people have gone through to get any recognition. The issue of the degree however, seems to come up as a negative in this thread and that I do take exception to.


Nikcara......it is not the degree which is a negative......it is the attitude with which one places so much uneccessary worth in the degree......

Take care sister.....

Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
... my secretary wants to be an attorney, she is 23 with a six year old. She is going to night school now for her undergraduate degree and then she will go to some bodies law school.


Awww... I guess that puts her out of contention. Any court stenographers at your trial whom you could pass my number onto? Courthouse cafeteria staff? I got a whole lotta lovin' to give! Wink
Nikcara, I have a cousin that fits your criteria of being successful, educated, professional, attractive, etc. but she either can't find a man or can't keep a man. Here's one reason why I think she has so much trouble particularly in the department of not being able to keep a man:

"Charlene" was having trouble with her car last Friday. After she took her 5 series BMW to a local mechanic she was told her battery was dead. Unfortunately, the mechanic told her she would have to get a BOSCH battery which meant she would have to go back to the dealership which was already closed for the day, and wouldn't open until the following Tuesday after the 4th.

After two days of wasting AAA's time to jumpstart her car she finally came to me for help. I drove her to Wal-mart to buy a portable battery charger. Our first conflict came where she was determined to buy a stationary battery charger over the logical choice of a portable charger--the case being, if she was ever stranded before making it home the portable charger could be used anywhere, whereas, the stationary charger would have to be plugged in.
After nearly an hour of arguing she gave in and baught the portable charger.

The next infraction came where "Charlene" thought she could jumpstart her car and let it idol, thereby, relying on the car to recharge the battery. With my years of automotive experience I suggested she wait until she was ready to leave due to the fact that, first of all, a car must run at 3000 RPM's in order for the alternator to charge the battery. Secondly, an alternator would be worthless considering the fact that the cells in the battery was dead, and couldn't hold a charge.

Despite my exprienced advice, "Charlene" decided to jumpstart her car anyway and let it idle for 15 minutes. When she returned to check to see if her hypothesis was correct she indeed found that she was wrong. After she turned the car off and tried to restart it, the car sputtered and died.

The moral of this story refers back to Diamond's discussion:

Many modern women are so independent, so self-sufficient, so committed to the cause, to the church, to career or their narrow concepts of same, that their entire personalities project an "I don't need a man" message. Consequently they end up without one. An interested man may be attracted but soon discovers that this sister makes very little space for him in her life. "Diamond."

My point is, in regard to "Charlene," if she butted heads with me so relentlessly about a matter she had no experience or training in how would she be in a situation where she was knowledgable? If she butted heads with me, her cousin, just think how much head-butting she must do with the brothers she dates.

Many sisters as well as my cousin, fail at finding or, primarily, keeping a man because of not being able to see the forest for the trees:

A fighting spirit is important on the battlefield, but a gentler spirit is wanted on the home front. Too many women are winning the battle and losing the home. Sometimes in our determined efforts to be strong believers and hard workers, we contemporary women downplay, denigrate or simply forget our more traditional feminine attributes. Men value women best for the way we are different from them, not the ways we are the same. "Diamond."

Sometimes, brothers stick their necks out to tell their women what the problem could be and we are often met with the response, rather verbally or through body language, "Yeah, okay, thank you for your concern but you're just a man. You don't know what it's like to be a woman." This is probably why some brothers grin and bear it or give up and move on.
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quote:
10. Ronin: Why don't you ask your question in the Den and see what response you get. Yes, this question from time to time is an obsession of mine. If I could get a single Black Man that I wanted to commit to me do you really think I would have come up with this question. Don't you think that this question comes from the fact that when I think about me I get depressed and if it was just me I'd be really singing the blues but when I look my girls and then hear about thier girls and remember that NY Times article my Dad gave me back in '93 or '94, I realize that it is not just me and thus I am no longer depressed but I do want to know why.


I guess what I am trying to ask is what about the black men that DO want to commit to you? Are there any that do but you are just not into them for some reason? For example, I have had black women say that I have to be 6'1" or taller and would not date me because I was 5'9-5'10" range even though they were 5'5". I am just using height as an example. I notice both men and women can be a bit picky with the opposite sex/potential partners. I understand every person has a preference but do you feel that it's a combination of your preference and committment phobic black men that has you asking this question? I can't imagine that every single black man you encounter/date will not commit. Maybe I am ignorant to the situation because I am committment minded.
quote:
Originally posted by ronin10:
quote:
10. Ronin: Why don't you ask your question in the Den and see what response you get. Yes, this question from time to time is an obsession of mine. If I could get a single Black Man that I wanted to commit to me do you really think I would have come up with this question. Don't you think that this question comes from the fact that when I think about me I get depressed and if it was just me I'd be really singing the blues but when I look my girls and then hear about thier girls and remember that NY Times article my Dad gave me back in '93 or '94, I realize that it is not just me and thus I am no longer depressed but I do want to know why.


Nikcara,

I guess what I am trying to ask is what about the black men that DO want to commit to you? Are there any that do but you are just not into them for some reason? For example, I have had black women say that I have to be 6'1" or taller and would not date me because I was 5'9-5'10" range even though they were 5'5". I am just using height as an example. I notice both men and women can be a bit picky with the opposite sex/potential partners. I understand every person has a preference but do you feel that it's a combination of your preference and committment phobic black men that has you asking this question? I can't imagine that every single black man you encounter/date will not commit. Maybe I am ignorant to the situation because I am committment minded.
Okay, I know I'm going to get murdered for this but after reading ronin10's response, the rocks started rolling around in my head.

Do you think, perhaps, that this discussion should be retitled:

"Why can't the single black men that we want commit to a real relationship with educated sistas?"



*Running out of the forum for dear life*
Ronin and Corinthian: I hear both of you. I have dated tall guys, short guys, skinny guys, bald guys, balding guys, dreaded guys, regular close cut guys, was willing to date a fat guy once but then he flaked. My point, I am attracted to the person, if I think he is cute then I will date him period. Gotta go my monster secretary is making me stop. She does not understand I just need some down time after being on trial all day 11a to 5.30p. Then I had to drive back to the office. She want to go home at 7:34, I am really just getting started. See Vox said he wants her, or at leat used to until he learned that she is trying to educate herself, but she is the slave driver not me.
quote:
Originally posted by ronin10:
Nikcara ,


Since you are willing to compromise in the dating world, then my post probably doesn't apply to you. It's for the women that can't find a guy because they are closing them off. You seem very open-minded and I'm sorry you are having trouble. Hang in there, your time will come.



And let the congregration say, Amen!...Amen!
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
As for Vox: your responses never cease to disappoint and amuse at the same time.


Awww, thanks... wait a minute. There's some shade up in that comment... I guess I'm gonna have to meaningfully contribute now.

In case no one has figured it out, Nikcara & I are buddies off line. I tended to avoid commenting because offline, she knows exactly how vehemently I disagree with her on this topic... but I'll post now anyway.

First, Nikcara, your initial question is the wrong question, and your answer choices are all poor and highly skewed. When a particular situation troubles us personally, it's all too easy to allow our perceptions to warp the way we see the problem. One of my fave authors, Stephen Covey, states what, when I paraphrase slightly, has proven in my life to be an absolute fact: The way we see the problem is in itself a large part of the problem. Truth sets us free, and truth is objective. So our examination of the problem has to start with as objective a viewpoint as possible; otherwise, the analysis is corrupted from the beginning by untruth, which will in turn forever frustrate our search for workable solutions.

The question you asked is, "Why can't single men commit to a real relationship with educated sistas." But from your post, what you really want to know is why YOU don't seem to have much luck in dating/relationships. The question as you phrased it assumes too much of an answer: that it's necessarily some problem within the men. At this beginning stage, the answer to your real question - the one you really mean to be asking -- could very well end up boiling down to some problem within the men. But at the very beginning stages of an honest inquiry, you are screwing yourself if your initial inquiry in any way assumes any part of the answer. Since your question assumes part of the answer, you're starting off on the wrong foot. In fact, one possible reason you're assuming the answer is that any frustration you may have could be driving you to figure that it's the men's fault. This, if true, makes your question per se too subjective, which means you have to start over again.

Even before that, though, you REALLY can't hit sufficient objectivity until you research actual statistics to confirm first of all that there is such a phenomenon. You'd want numbers. 1. What percentage of black women are married, by which ages. 2. What percentage of white women. 3. What percentage of white and black women by educational attainment. 4. Who are black men marrying?

#4 is all important, really. If 6% of black women have advanced degrees, but 6% of married black women have advanced degrees, then your purported theory falls flat. If anywhere near 6% of black women who are married to black men have advanced degrees, then that would suggest that black men really don't use a woman's educational status as a factor in choosing a mate. This is probably more true if the numbers are roughly equal regarding who educated, successful black men are marrying.

So I would need to see some numbers, to paint an overall picture. Let's say that your numbers bear out: that educated black women are disproportionately single. Only then does the question become why.

Let's say further examination reveals that these black women only really want to marry someone of similar, if not superior, attainment. That's one factor. Then, let';s say it turns out that, due to societal issues, black men are disproportionately poorly represented in these higher levels of attainment. Then, let's say it turns out that of the men remaining, there's a high percentage of them who prefer to be with white women.

Notice so far that none of these factors are present in your list of choices at the top of this thread.

And yes... let's say there may be something about these women that many of the men don't like. Did the women's upbringing leave many of the women in question socially deficient with men of their own race? Did they grow up in Lilywhiteland? Did they grow up in black poor areas, but were excessively sheltered by their parents? Do many of them have overbearing personalities, which enabled them to succeed professionally, but are actually turnoffs in the romantic department?

I'm not implying that any of this is you. But every last one of these possibilities is plausible enough for me to predict you could conclude if you looked at it deeply and holistically enough. Oh yeah, and honestly enough.

I'm not saying that the state of things should not bother you. I'm saying that you have to make sure not to allow the fact that it bothers you to cloud the way you look for solutions, if solutions are what you're looking for.

That's my basic, long-winded version of what AudioGuy, Virtue, Frenchy, and others were able to say a lot more succinctly.

And by the way, I'll ignore the bizarre eugenicist implications of your idea about poorer women destroying the race thru reproduction... instead, I'll try to point out that if the successful men you're talking about are marrying these women, the likelhood is that the successful men are giving their children a leg up.
Vox kiss, I love it, now you are into the fray, welcome. Yes everybody we do hang out offline, in fact it was Vox I was going to pick up at the airport, anyway I digress.... he hyped me on this site for so long that I just had to get involved.

Yes, this issue bothers me, but my friend and online community, I am not alone, there have been several posts that go directly to the point of my question. Yet, the issue remains the same. I can agree Vox that all of my argument in this thread is anecdotal, but when you are living it, it becomes really relevant in the here and now.

You suggest that the men who are having children with poorer women are giving the kids a leg up. How if they are not present in the child's life, how if they child lives one way and the father lives the good life, how if the mother goes into a deep depression because of the failed relationship is she going to be able to raise the child to be happy and healthy?

I just think and continue you believe that this issue of education is going to continue to be a problem what pray tell Vox, did you think about with Rowe and Sandye wrote. They make very good arguments that ironically no one but Folo, has really acknowledged by saying he appreciates brainy girls.

Also Ronin, thank you but I gotta say, just so we are clear, I do not and will not date men with children, been there done that, it did not work. Also all the guys I am talking about generally have college degrees or better. I did date a few guys with associate degrees or tech school degrees but those relationships disappated more quickly than others that I was referring to earlier.

Corinthan: On the car issue.... I do not know what the deal is with your cousin. I know nothing about cars and thus I am as dependant as dependant can be on that issue. Last year I was dating a guy whose Dad was a mechanic, so he grew up learning all about cars from before he could walk, anyway suffice it to say that between him and my Dad I did not have to do anything except put gas in the car. The problem is, that I feel horrible being totally clueless.

I have always wanted to go to Lincoln Tech, a post high school mechanic school but I just have not had the time. Last year when my ex was in the car with me I got a flat. We were on the road in the middle of the night, and I felt crazy because I could not do anything except sit in car or stand in silence, I knew nothing about how to change the tire and when he asked for different tools I was like "You want a what..".

So I just can't get with what your cousin did to you. All you would have had to do with me is point to which one I should get and we would have been 10 minutes in and out of the store. I follow instructions about cars very well it is just not my area. But because of my ex I know what a hemi is. Cool
Maybe we should frame the question in another way, or add a voting option, such as - Not enough selection, of an equivalent quality.

Now, I'm not saying that it is 'impossible' to find a Black man at 'a higher level,' and I am also not saying that a Black man HAS to be on the same level as a Black woman financially or intellectually (or vice versa) but I am saying, that it helps, and that they (this couple) should at least be on the same level in some category; aspirations, intellectually, Black pride, something, ... in order for the relationship to flourish, and be happy.

The problem is that finding a (Black) man, at this level is both more challenging and competitive, because they are fewer and farther between. The selection pool is smaller.
And, they (Black men) have broadened their 'selection' categories, to include outside ethnic groups, which also hampers things. They have not / are not showing loyalty to the Black female. Which results in or has yielded increasing numbers of successful, yet unmarried and available Black women. And, Black women stepping outside of their race for the relationship thing. What other choice do we really have / been left with?

To get back on point, I'm sure you'll all agree, that there are an abundance of men out there, white, black and otherwise, but selection, finding a mate appropriate (suitable) for you/oneself, becomes the challenge as you / we mature, grow, educate ourselves and advance professionally.

At least on the 'true relationship' level (if your just talking about knocking boots, well that's a totally different debate) Thoughts?? Agree / Disagree ???
quote:
Originally posted by amber:
At least on the 'true relationship' level (if your just talking about knocking boots, well that's a totally different debate) Thoughts?? Agree / Disagree ???


WOMEN: YOU WANT A MAN? THEN GET A LIFE!

Personally, my interest in the "Where Can I Find A Black Man" issue has expired. In my view, the simplest resolve would be for black women to become more active in pursuing men. If you can find your way to a website and have constructive, stimulating conversations with eligible black men in this forum, then you can certainly find men with comparable qualities offline. Also, why not try approaching men representing other ethnic groups who may appeal to you, as recommended by Ironhorse in another thread? Also, you can join associations, activist groups, on-campus organizations, professional clubs, etc. where men are represented in large numbers. Another successful method for finding men is to ask males friends and colleagues for references. There's nothing shameful about offering to take a male co-worker/friend out to lunch and simply asking him, when appropriate, "Do you know of any eligible friends that are interesting in dating?" Most of the time, friends enjoy playing "hook up" anyway. This is particularly helpful when a woman has a specific type of guy that she's looking for (i.e., college educated). By stating all of this, I'm not at all suggesting that we should ignore the obvious problems impacting the black community. These issues are important to discuss and is one of the main reasons why I visit this site; however, I've found that those women who seem to have the most difficulty finding long-term mates are those that are out of the social loop, they live a recluse lifestyle, and are not actively networking as some are.
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Amber: What a beautiful face.....will you marry me?

Nikcara: Vox , I love it, now you are into the fray, welcome. Yes everybody we do hang out offline, in fact it was Vox I was going to pick up at the airport, anyway I digress....

If Vox and you are buddies offline, and both of you are single then why is Vox wanting your secretary?????

Rowe: Also, why not try approaching men representing other ethnic groups who may appeal to you....

Before taking the step of approaching men of other races, why not try approaching a black man first? One thing that bothers me about us black people is we can't communicate and interact amongst each other constructively but we sure can chase after other races of people like a bunch of fools like the grass is so much greener on the other side.

I'm not against interracial dating but why supercede members of the opposite sex of your own race due to hangups from the past? I've seen it happen too many times in many public venues--black men and women do not give each other as much cultural courteousy towards each other as in the past.

Too many sisters are too busy igging good brothers, waiting for Boris Cujo (Spelling?) or 50 cent to come along, and too many brothers are too busy igging good sisters waiting for Beyonce or Trina to come along. The problem with this is when a brother or a sister does come across that brother or sister that fits that narrow peception of an ideal mate chances are they have a player and playerette mentality because they know they possess the superficial attributes that are popular in today's society. In the end both the brothers and the sisters end up disappointed and broken-hearted.

Here's is also what is so aggrevating: your typical brother or sister starts out in their romantic endeavors with this boarderline unrealistic idea of what they want in a black mate. But when they don't find that ideal partner of their own race and they choose the interracial route they usually end of with someone that is nothing like what they wanted. Why can't some of these brothers and sisters drop the unrealistic expectations and get with someone of their own race to begin with?

Vox: Brilliant deduction but your analysis, nevertheless, overlooks what could be the true solution to the problem.

Nikcara: I've read your "anecdotal" thread. If you consider yourself to be "prime wife material" and you've persued all avenues of social interaction i.e. internet dating, match maker services, nightclubs, book clubs, church, social clubs, art museums, etc., and you still come up empty-handed then it's time to take the next step--self-assessment.

The passage I'm about to quote may not apply to you, Nikcara, nevertheless, it may apply to other women that may be reading this discussion:

Women who are always saying they want a good man but end up with duds need to take a long look in the mirror. Although many of them say they're sick and tired of men who cause all sorts of problems in their lives, they continue to loop back around to those same types of men time after time.

This type of woman is usually sure there is nothing wrong with her. Instead, she's convinced that the men of the world are the problem. To make matters worse, she's probably surrounded by girlfriends who feel the same way, and who don't challenge her to take a look at herself and the bad choices she's making.

--William July II

As far as self-assessment is concerned, Nikcara, it may be in your best interest to seek counseling. I'm not insinuating that you're crazy, I'm just saying a lot of us black people have a tendency to dismiss visiting a psychologist because of the stigma of only crazy people need psychological counseling.

There have been times in my life where I was confused or depressed about certain situations and I saught counseling. Sometimes its better to seek advice and opinions from an unbiased, professional source while also resolving underlying issues that may be the source of an area that needs improvement in your life.

Many times, if you are intellectually in touch with yourself you will find that many of the answers and suggestions a psychologist will offer will coincide with what you may already have in mind. You just may need a little reassurance and affirmation in order to move forward in your life.
quote:
Originally posted by CORINTHIAN1906:
I've seen it happen too many times in many public venues--black men and women do not give each other as much cultural courteousy towards each other as in the past.


I agree that black relationships are preferrable, however, my suggestion for black women to try approaching men outside of their race was made because, according to the women participating in this discussion, successful black men are scarce. In addition, it seems as if the more successful a black man becomes, the less interested he is in African-American women, particularly those that are not members of elite social circles. Therefore, an increasing number of black women are looking elsewhere for companionship because they are not finding dedicated fathers and committed husbands in their own communities.
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quote:
Originally posted by CORINTHIAN1906:

Nikcara: Vox , I love it, now you are into the fray, welcome. Yes everybody we do hang out offline, in fact it was Vox I was going to pick up at the airport, anyway I digress....

If Vox and you are buddies offline, and both of you are single then why is Vox wanting your secretary?????


LOL... I've never actually met her secretary. I was just kidding... And remember, I've moved on. Since the secretary is looking to be a lawyer one day, I'm trying to find me a nice courthouse cafeteria worker. Razz

quote:
Vox: Brilliant deduction but your analysis, nevertheless, overlooks what could be the true solution to the problem.
How so? The framework I laid out, I believe, would allow an honest assessor to be able to work out the problems regardless of what it actually boils down to. How do you think otherwise? Can you (and I admit this may not be the most useful way to frame the question) give an example of a possible "true solution" that could not be arrived at by the framework I suggested?

And Ronin, thanks.
The framework I laid out, I believe, would allow an honest assessor to be able to work out the problems regardless of what it actually boils down to. How do you think otherwise? Can you (and I admit this may not be the most useful way to frame the question) give an example of a possible "true solution" that could not be arrived at by the framework I suggested? "Vox."

I will reiterate the solution I offered earlier from analysis to solution:

Analysis:
Nikcara: I've read your "anecdotal" thread. If you consider yourself to be "prime wife material" and you've persued all avenues of social interaction i.e. internet dating, match maker services, nightclubs, book clubs, church, social clubs, art museums, etc., and you still come up empty-handed then it's time to take the next step--self-assessment.

Possible solution:
As far as self-assessment is concerned, Nikcara, it may be in your best interest to seek counseling. I'm not insinuating that you're crazy, I'm just saying a lot of us black people have a tendency to dismiss visiting a psychologist because of the stigma of only crazy people need psychological counseling.
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
Vox kiss, I love it, now you are into the fray, welcome. Yes everybody we do hang out offline, in fact it was Vox I was going to pick up at the airport, anyway I digress...

No you don't digress at all. This statement speaks volumes. I don't know many women who would drive to pick a man - a single eligible bachelor - from the airport unless she has feelings for him. Are you sure this whole post is not directed at Vox and he is too slow to realize your feelings for him?

You don't have to answer that but the two of you have to take a close and honest look at your friendship.

Whatever you do Nikcara you have to drop the emphasis you put on your education with regard to relationships. If you don't it would cost you dearly. Your education is mainly to help you get a good job and earn money it does not feature in your interaction with people you deal with in everyday life. You have to separate the two. To think you are prime wife material because you are are educated makes very disturbing reading and you should drop it otherwise you may get your man but end up with a miserable relationship.
Corinthian: It is funny that you suggest counseling, I was telling Aunt about this whole post yesterday and she suggested a vision quest, or a survival course [she's my dad's sister, is anyone hearing exercise laugh]

Henry: Vox is my buddie, my ace. I have taken my girls to the airport and picked them back up, my boys have taken me to the airport and picked me back up. My best friend from law school drove to Atlantic City and back, when I lived there, to take me to the Philadelphia airport and he is a guy. It was not like we went on the trip together. Why is it that people can't have good friends of the opposite sex?

I can talk to Vox anytime I want and feel free to say anything to him. I am not so convoluted as to use a very public forum to have a private conversation. I would be a real head case then. Eek

Plus, the smilie that I use with him is the typical way Black people greet each other when they are at the minimum socially acquainted and the most you get when you are friends. Should I now consider when I go out that anytime I kiss a man on the cheek there is a sexual connotation? Then I should really wonder when my Sands' husbands kisses me cause he did it the other day right in front of her. I am a Delta by the way Corinthian. I see other attorneys at the court house, if I haven't seen them in a long time, we kiss on the cheek, I do this with men and women. Now a kiss on the cheek means more than friendship. Ok, now I know how you are taking it, but you also know how I mean it.

Moreover, remember he told me about the site and I actually thought that Sista Spot was a women's only discussion board, not that I don't like the result of this thread because I do enjoy reading all the responses.

I told him he was going to start something by saying we were friends offline, he never believes me though.

Vox: Look what you done did! kiss
No you don't digress at all. This statement speaks volumes. I don't know many women who would drive to pick a man - a single eligible bachelor - from the airport unless she has feelings for him. Are you sure this whole post is not directed at Vox and he is too slow to realize your feelings for him? "Henry38."

Shhhhhhhhh!!! Dang, henry38!! You spoke too fast!!! Now, Nikcara and Vox are going to be all apprehensive and self-conscious instead of employing such coyness to carry out their Sybil Shepard, Bruce Willis, "Moonlighting" kind of romance that's been going on!

Nikcara: I knew you had to be a Delta (OOOOOOOOOP!). An AKA would have been too pretentious to talk about her personal matters even online. As far as as members of the opposite sex kissing platonic friends--please--I'm a civilized man myself. I'm always kissing and hugging on my best female friend in Atlanta as well as other various platonic friends of the opposite sex.

I hope you do take advantage of seeking therapy even if just to broaden your psychological horizons. In the event that you are still in the business of finding a suitable, equally yoked mate I would be more than willing to offer my romantic services. Here is my card:


CORINTHIAN INC.
"Aesthetics is our Business."

Rex Burnett
Multimedia Specialist
Ph: 305.443.7565 Fax: 305.443.7563

Email: Corinthian1906@freedom.com

NOTICE: This business information is intended for entertainment purposes only.
Surfing the net, as I usually do, I find this site, this thread and others very interesting. My philosophy is, hot or cold, just dive right in. What better question than this.

I am an attorney and an avid surfer. I am also not married and I have no children. This does not bother me as much as it seems to bother Nikcara. I do, however, clearly see Nikcara's point. Furthermore, it is a valid point despite what others have said. Sandye, who I also believe is an attorney makes good points as well.

I think that the problem is that Nikcara asked a question, not poorly but shall we say in an incendiary way. The problem is that perhaps some people responding are not as educated, male or female, and thus they found the entire discussion offensive.

I doubt that was her intent however, because I can sense, as much as one can online, a sincerity in her question and her responses. I do also agree with C1906, that only a Delta would begin with such an evocative question, but then again people don't call them Sophisticated Ladies for nothing.
quote:
Originally posted by Surfingnymph:
I am an attorney and an avid surfer. ....... Sandye, who I also believe is an attorney makes good points as well.
...... The problem is that perhaps some people responding are not as educated, male or female, and thus they found the entire discussion offensive.
.


I for one don't find this discussion offensive. Not at all.

Is it some inferiority complex that make some of our sisters want to announce at the first opportunity their position or educational achievements? Ever heard of empty barrels makes the most noise about their status or position in life?

Some of us hold these higher degrees but in my three and a half years on this board I don't believe there has a ever been the need to announce it. Since this is the new trend by this time next year I would have my Ph.D so get ready to call me, "Doctor H38." LOL.

Has any of you heard American men pay upwards to $4000 to be introduced to Russian brides? One thing with Russian women they are in very high demand NOT BECAUSE practically all of them have university education but rather their desirability is based on the high value these women place on traditional family values, maybe our sisters could learn a lesson or two from Russian women.
...... The problem is that perhaps some people responding are not as educated, male or female, and thus they found the entire discussion offensive. "Surfingnymph."

Okay, see, if I wasn't about to begin my work on a doctorial program in Psychotherapy, I would have taken offense to that remark you just made, Surfingnymph (rolling all over the floor laughing).

There was nothing incendiary about this discussion until you waltzed up in here and declared us village idiots. From what I've seen since being in here, Surfingnymph, most of the members that actively participate in these discussions are either already highly qualified professionals or in the process of obtaining post graduate degrees.

If you haven't noticed by our somewhat above average way we express ourselves we do possess the cognitive capability to comprehend the purpose of this conversation as well as offer a pleathora of opinions and suggestions on the subject.

What I can't seem to figure out is what type of intellectual superiority does a degree in law give you, or any other person practicing law, that would be better than anyone else's intellectual capacity that may have the same level of education as people that practice law if not more?

There's really nothing hard to figure out here, nymph. The simple fact of the matter is, Nikcara, has reached the limitations of her interpersonal capabilities, and is in need of unbiased, professional guidance to help her broaden her romantic horizons. Now, of course, we, as enlightened individuals with a fair sense of humor do have the right to express a little satirical wit on this subject in the course of offering our opinions and suggestions.
quote:
Originally posted by henry38:
One thing with Russian women they are in very high demand NOT BECAUSE practically all of them have university education but rather their desirability is based on the high value these women place on traditional family values, maybe our sisters could learn a lesson or two from Russian women.


Traditionally, African women have placed a high value on family. However, since his arrival to this country, African men are not given as nearly enough opportunities to succeed as white men in America, or Russia. Therefore, perhaps you should consider that russian women can afford to sit on thier asses, at home, and adhere to traditional family values because white russian men are earning double incomes. No one has yet to address the disparity between Black women and men's upward mobility. Everyone seems to be bullshitting around this problem by discussing irrelevant side issues like how to bone a russian rather than how to improve Black men's success in America so that he can take full responsibility for his family and Black women can be wives and mothers. As I've mentioned before, Black women would like nothing better than to be at home with their children, fulfilling their role as mothers and wives, but life's circumstances prevents us from doing that.
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