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I think this is a good - if ambitious - poll to post. I'm not sure how many 'brothers' will respond.

It would be good to see the responses... but I'm thinking that to make sense of 'women being single etc at 30, armed with degrees', it might also be pertinent to ask how many women in general (regardless of race) are in their mid - late 30s and single without a man (regardless of race). I know that is not what you're asking, but it might build a bigger better picture. Because I think this issue of 'committment' also applies to some degree to educated women of other races in general, including white.

Maybe not as profoundly, but where are the facts? I think it would be good to examine your question within the broader scope of current gender relations/trends.

Maybe it's time all 'these' women with degrees did some serious quantitive research and arm themselves with solid facts. And no I'm not being sarcastic. It is an important issue. And research is part of academic study isn't it?

I for one would like to see a comparative study. I also have girlfriends who are smart, sassy, good looking and are single in both their mid-30s and early 40s. So they are also pretty interested in knowing why that is.

Just a thought.
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
I have been wondering why so many of my sistas and I are in our mid to late thirties with no husbands and no kids. Dark to light skin, tall or short, beautiful to plain, perfect body to overweight, the one thing these all have in common is graduate degrees[doctors,attorneys,engineers, CPAs & MBAs), great careers (note I did not say great job), discretionary income and no kids. To me,we should be prime wife material but it seems like pursuing our intellectual heights made us undesirable to brothas in our age group who are similarly situated. Why is this the case.

I do not have a clue why or even if this is the case. I do not identify with any of the options given in the poll, however. My wife and I met when we were in our mid thirties.

I know that I may get into trouble by asking this, but sometimes the problem is with how the question is phrased. Thus, what happens when we flip the question to
"Why can't educated sistas find single Black men seeking committed relationships?"

Granted, this assumes that there are single Black men who are seeking committed relationships. The issue then becomes, where is one apt to find them. Again, anecdotally, three of my AA male peers (all doctoral students in their mid thirties) got married last year. Clearly they were seeking committed relationships.

Now as a group, you would not find us out a nightclubs. Most of us met our wives at school or church. We don't have, and may not ever have large amounts of income (we are all going the route of the academy, not the "private sector".

Also, what you raise in the poll choices leads me to ask are these sister's willing to marry a guy whom they make more money than, have more education than, etc? Are they willing to date a bus driver, a mechanic, a farmer, a machinists, or an artists who are good, honest, loving people, but may not match some preconceived notion of who you should be with?
Maureen Dowd wrote a great overall piece on this for the New York Times:

The New York Times
January 13, 2005
OP-ED COLUMNIST

MEN JUST WANT MOMMY

By MAUREEN DOWD


A few years ago at a White House Correspondents' dinner, I met a very beautiful actress. Within moments, she blurted out: "I can't believe I'm 46 and not married. Men only want to marry their personal assistants or P.R. women."

I'd been noticing a trend along these lines, as famous and powerful men took up with the young women whose job it was to tend to them and care for them in some way: their secretaries, assistants, nannies, caterers, flight attendants, researchers and fact-checkers.

Women in staff support are the new sirens because, as a guy I know put it, they look upon the men they work for as "the moon, the sun and the stars." It's all about orbiting, serving and salaaming their Sun Gods.

In all those great Tracy/Hepburn movies more than a half-century ago, it was the snap and crackle of a romance between equals that was so exciting. Moviemakers these days seem far more interested in the soothing aura of romances between unequals.

In James Brooks's "Spanglish," Adam Sandler, as a Los Angeles chef, falls for his hot Mexican maid. The maid, who cleans up after Mr. Sandler without being able to speak English, is presented as the ideal woman. The wife, played by Téa Leoni, is repellent: a jangly, yakking, overachieving, overexercised, unfaithful, shallow she-monster who has just lost her job with a commercial design firm. Picture Faye Dunaway in "Network" if she'd had to stay home, or Glenn Close in "Fatal Attraction" without the charm.

The same attraction of unequals animated Richard Curtis's "Love Actually," a 2003 holiday hit. The witty and sophisticated British prime minister, played by Hugh Grant, falls for the chubby girl who wheels the tea and scones into his office. A businessman married to the substantial Emma Thompson falls for his sultry secretary. A writer falls for his maid, who speaks only Portuguese.

(I wonder if the trend in making maids who don't speak English heroines is related to the trend of guys who like to watch Kelly Ripa in the morning with the sound turned off?)

Art is imitating life, turning women who seek equality into selfish narcissists and objects of rejection, rather than affection.

As John Schwartz of The New York Times wrote recently, "Men would rather marry their secretaries than their bosses, and evolution may be to blame."

A new study by psychology researchers at the University of Michigan, using college undergraduates, suggests that men going for long-term relationships would rather marry women in subordinate jobs than women who are supervisors.

As Dr. Stephanie Brown, the lead author of the study, summed it up for reporters: "Powerful women are at a disadvantage in the marriage market because men may prefer to marry less-accomplished women." Men think that women with important jobs are more likely to cheat on them.

"The hypothesis," Dr. Brown said, "is that there are evolutionary pressures on males to take steps to minimize the risk of raising offspring that are not their own." Women, by contrast, did not show a marked difference in their attraction to men who might work above or below them. And men did not show a preference when it came to one-night stands.

A second study, which was by researchers at four British universities and reported last week, suggested that smart men with demanding jobs would rather have old-fashioned wives, like their mums, than equals. The study found that a high I.Q. hampers a woman's chance to get married, while it is a plus for men. The prospect for marriage increased by 35 percent for guys for each 16-point increase in I.Q.; for women, there is a 40 percent drop for each 16-point rise.

So was the feminist movement some sort of cruel hoax? The more women achieve, the less desirable they are? Women want to be in a relationship with guys they can seriously talk to - unfortunately, a lot of those guys want to be in relationships with women they don't have to talk to.

I asked the actress and writer Carrie Fisher, on the East Coast to promote her novel "The Best Awful," who confirmed that women who challenge men are in trouble.

"I haven't dated in 12 million years," she said drily. "I gave up on dating powerful men because they wanted to date women in the service professions. So I decided to date guys in the service professions. But then I found out that kings want to be treated like kings, and consorts want to be treated like kings, too."
Peace.....

I used to work as a legal secretary......

Many of the lawyers I worked with....we spent many long hours together working on their projects .....this created much intimacy....I had to deal with this by getting to know their wives so that the level of intimacy would dissipate.....but the nature of the relationship....(me- young, available intelligent and totally engrossed in the work of my superior.....he- at the height or trying to reach the height of his life's work, giving advice and guidance....) was a recipe for disaster....many women in this field are fielding very high powered professional men away......

I think there is something to be said....not for a woman in a lower level status....but the nature of the relationship.....she is not his equal so he retains the sense of being desired and admired on a level that many men crave (whether women want to admit or like it or not).....admiring someone does not mean dumbing yourself down....but it does make it harder to admire someone on your level.....you are apt to compare rather than admire....and many of us were young and in our prime physically so the attention by a man with means and status was too hard to ignore.....the exchange and symbiotic relating was very natural....not forced....

Again, I never took advantage of these scenarios....although I know many who did....I had too much sympathy for their wives.....and wanted my own man....but I just thought it would be helpful to share a small piece of information regarding Frenchy's post....

On the flip side....I became a stay at home mother....it was my cooking, mothering and pride in my ultra feminity that I believe made me attractive to many men....I never ever had a problem being proposed to.....but this was in my twenties....while I was in college...At the time a sister who loved to cook and dress feminine and speak softly was actually odd in the circles of intellectuals and conscious people that I traveled with.... (obviously this is not the case for all in such groups...just my particular experience)....

Now, as a stay at home mother.....the offers have not ceased.....this is all I will say on ths matter.....but suffice it to say ......there are many women far more beautiful than I....far more educated than I.....perhaps even more witty and well spoken than I.....but whenever I am around these women....I am not the one complaining....I just think it's not the profession or the degree....It's the focus on their own feminity and their desire to please men that other men take issue with....

Obviously I can't speak for all men....many men do not fit this type.....so again this is just my experience only.....and I am aware that I am generalizing a lot to make my point....

Peace....
Virtue
virtue, I think a lot has changed. Remember the convo we had about cooking for a man on a date? I dare say a lot of the things that were once prized in a mate, are now seen as being very "Desperado" among the current crop of singles Razz. I don't think it's enough to be the prototype of femininity. One must also be less-accomplished than her mate.

I think also there is an unshakeable perception that most people have of academically-accomplished women being ballbusters. Even when she is in the frilliest dress that ever frilled, with pink bows in her hair, speaking in barely a whisper, and washing her man's feet and drinking the bathwater, the reaction is "Why are you acting like such a pushover/so subservient/etc??" and not one of appreciation. (Generally speaking, of course.)

I, too, notice that lawyers always seem to marry/date their secretaries or paralegals. But I think part of that is because they see these women more than they see anyone else because of the ridiculous amount of hours they work. Don't know if doctors' work schedules put them in similar situations. I don't know what everyone else's excuse is, though. LOL! laugh
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
virtue, I think a lot has changed.


Oh really? I have been out of the scene for awhile (ummmm 11 1/2 years *cough*) So I'm willing to listen....smile


quote:
Remember the convo we had about cooking for a man on a date? I dare say a lot of the things that were once prized in a mate, are now seen as being very "Desperado" among the current crop of singles Razz.


Hmmm...I do remember this....and I agree that especially in the area of cooking this is sometimes true....but my experience was with a brother my age at the time....my experience with older men was somewhat different and my experience with the crowd I travelled in was different as well....
quote:
I don't think it's enough to be the prototype of femininity. One must also be less-accomplished than her mate.


I do agree that being less accomplished does seem to have a quality about it that men are attracted to.....in my case my lower status....clearly placed me in a position to admire the men above me....it was this admiration that they craved....I could see it and knew it...I chose not to exploit it....

quote:
I think also there is an unshakeable perception that most people have of academically-accomplished women being ballbusters.


I think there is some measure of truth to this....but I am also aware that many women had to live up to this stereotype to function and succeed in a corporate environment where men were prejudiced....

quote:
Even when she is in the frilliest dress that ever frilled, with pink bows in her hair, speaking in barely a whisper, and washing her man's feet and drinking the bathwater, the reaction is "Why are you acting like such a pushover/so subservient/etc??" and not one of appreciation. (Generally speaking, of course.)

Granted I used soft voice and feminine dress as examples....but this is just an outward invitation to a woman's femininity....femininity is not washing a man's feet and wearing frilly dresses....although this may happen...I liken true femininity to a woman's sexiness.....some women ooze this others don't but to define it would be difficult....you know it when you see it for you.....in my case...I never did the above...especially frilly dresses and the feet thang....but I was comfortable in my own skin as a woman and I never viewed myself or defined myself through the works of men....(we can PM each other and I'll tell you about it (wink/smile).....and in my circles....this was attractive and rare....unfortunately...

quote:
I, too, notice that lawyers always seem to marry/date their secretaries or paralegals. But I think part of that is because they see these women more than they see anyone else because of the ridiculous amount of hours they work. Don't know if doctors' work schedules put them in similar situations. I don't know what everyone else's excuse is, though. LOL! laugh


I agree...and You're funny!

Peace,
Virtue
Wow--once again, a woman posts a narrow perception of why black men seem to be avoiding or misusing sisters, and she is met with a myriad of objective, well-meaning responses. When I made a discussion stating that I was a brother of a "certain caliber," I was told that I would be perceived as being arrogant and conceited.

Here I am reading a discussion, written by a woman, referring to herself and certain sisters in general as "prime wife material," and she is met with objective, supportive, sympathetic comments.

As Kresge has already stated, I, too, do not fit the narrow criteria, Nikcara, for which you have listed as to the reasons why us brothers aren't marrying sisters. I doubt many of the brothers on this site also don't fit your criteria.

I'm just going to speak strictly from personal experience--it has been my experience that many of these sisters (doctors, lawyers, CPA's, etc.)are simply inaccessible primarily because they run in such tight knit social circles.

Many of these sisters will work all day, barely say hello or make eye contact with possible mates, run straight home, turn on Oprah, call up a girlfriend on the phone and say, "Girl, there ain't no good men out there!"

Some of these sisters won't openly admit this but some of them walk around pre-judging brothers by sight alone, "He walks/dresses/smiles/talks just like my ex used to--I don't want him." Some sisters won't give brothers a chance--I've experience first dates where sisters will interview me like I'm applying for a CEO position of a major corporation.

I could answer 19 out of 20 questions correctly--if she doesn't approve of one particular answer, not only will she have the arrogance to explain, in a whimsicle way of course, why I wouldn't be a suitable match for her, she will also do the "don't call me, I'll call you" routine.

Many sisters put up proverbial road blocks, pits, walls, thorn vines, trees, rings of fire, and anything else that they can throw in the way (tire spikes) because they think this is how they can tell if a brother is worthy of their time.

Now, don't take this the wrong way--don't think I'm some kind of loser that couldn't get a woman if I paid for one--I'm just merely stating some of my bad first date experiences among what I consider to be many successful dates. The point is, too many of these sisters have unrealistic expectations, pre-judge or exclude a certain demographic of brothers altogether because too many of them simply don't sit down and figure out what kind of man they need and want in their lives.

Too many sisters listen to their girlfriends--too many sisters watch too much television--too many sisters read too many entertainment magazines. Too many sisters think that it's up to the brothers to make first contact, and initiate romance--compounded by the fact that some of them may have had a few bad experiences with some brothers in their past, and what you end up with is a bitter, disalusioned, jaded, unrealistic, unapproachable sister.

What I have mentioned above doesn't necessarily mean that these kinds of sisters are actually mean--it just means that they have closed themselves off due to bad experiences or haven't developed their social skills in order to better interact with members of the opposite sex.
quote:
Maybe it's time all 'these' women with degrees did some serious quantitive research and arm themselves with solid facts --artgurl


I think women's time would be better spent if they did qualitative research--take the time to select a group of brothers and interact with them on a platonic level or just select one brother and get to know him. If the brother or brothers you chose to interact with are the type or types that are looking for early sexual interaction let them know up front that it isn't going to be like that and have the courage to tell the brother to step off if he doesn't oblidge--even if you are seriously feeling that brother.

I'm not saying you should be a snow queen--you can give a brother the feeling that you are interested in him without having to toot up your skirt, nevertheless, if sex is more important to him than getting to know you, then he was never really interested in you to begin with.

The key here is willpower--have the will to see the early stages of a relationship through without succombing to sexual temptation. Have the courage to draw the line if a brother wants more than you are willing to give, yet, don't put the fire out all the way. Give a brother a chance to have the sense to collect his thoughts and change his efforts to better suit your needs. If the brother responds well and acts accordingly, fine--if he's still persistant at getting in your panties have the courage to cut him loose.
quote:
I have been out of the scene for awhile (ummmm 11 1/2 years *cough*)


ek Hhhwat?!? I thought you were just a young buck! Ha ha ha Big Grin

quote:
I do agree that being less accomplished does seem to have a quality about it that men are attracted to.....in my case my lower status....clearly placed me in a position to admire the men above me....it was this admiration that they craved....I could see it and knew it


I hear you, but at the same time it confuses me. I posted a bit in another thread about an Essence survey that showed that Black men overwhelmingly wanted an equal partner/mate in marriage instead of a traditional wife. According to Maureen's theory, that men want women to mother them or remind them of their caregiver, I guess that would make sense since a lot of Black men grow up with a mother figure who is also a "father figure" and tougher in general than the mother figure white men grow up with. Hmmm....

quote:
I was comfortable in my own skin as a woman and I never viewed myself or defined myself through the works of men....(we can PM each other and I'll tell you about it (wink/smile)


Check your PM!!! cabbage
Wow, I just want to say thanks to all the posters for this question. It is a topic near and dear to my heart because I am living it. To Ironhorse, I am sorry you have encountered these bad dates. My girls and I are not like those women. All we really want is to come home to a strong Black man and say "Baby, how was your day" and really listen to his answer so that when we talk about our days he really listens to us. We want to share our lives with a man that appreciates and values us as we value him. To Frenchy, you post proves on a macro level what my girls and I figured out too late, i.e. after we graduated from grad school. To Virtue, I can burn like nobodies business, so cooking is not the issue, it literally is the difference between, and I am sorry to say it, a legal secretary and a lawyer, medical transcriptionist and doctor, architect and blueprint copy girl. I am more than happy that a Black woman with a college degree is married, but that is my mom, my grandma just graduated from highschool, I graduated from law school, they were both married, 20 for grandma, 25 for my mom, I am well past 30 with no husband or children in sight. My grandma had three kids, my mom had one, I have none, the trend is not looking good for educated women and that is just looking at my family. My girls are the same: mom had three kids, my girl, Doctor,her daughter, not married, no kids, her sister [bio] high school diploma, not married three kids; mom had two kids, my girl, Architect, no kids,not married, her sister, legal secretary [no college degree]married to lawyer, two kids and she no longer has to work. I could go on but the point is clear, there is a real problem.
Peace....

Please forgive me....Frency but I will have to respond to your PM and post tomorrow.....I have a slight emergency here....

But may I say this in general....

For me femininity is not a specific thing....like cooking (some women who do not cook exude femininity as well)....I'm just saying that some of these things were attractive to the men I came in contact with....

I think what I am trying to convey here is that...From my personal experience....powerful men....are attracted to women who are in touch with all that there is about themselves that makes them feminine in their particular personality.....and that these men are attracted to women who are the "opposite" of themselves....these women are "compliments" to who they are and how they see themselves...and typically these type of alpha males see themselves as superior to others.....a woman who is in her power as a woman will compell this type of man to her because of her nature.....and it is this that will be cultivated over the long hours spent together....her admiration .....his guidance....her physical prowess....his physical dominance....you get the picture...sometimes these characteristics do not play out this way because of the different personalities....but the principle is the same...the woman has been groomed to accept her self as a woman.....

Many times when a woman seeks a powerful career she loses sight of what makes her uniquely feminine (not all women....and I am certainly in no position to judge...but I am stating an observation-limited though it may be).....because she has to alter her nature to compete in a man's world and this subtle change in her awareness may not be apparent to her.....but even if you cannot put your finger on it.....the nuances are still there.....that's why it's hard to define....it's not just cooking though it often entails this....it's not just dresses although this happens too.....it is simply her reveling in her persona as a woman....and not settling for anything less....a real man real crave this....I just think because women in lower status positions have not always been through the type of pressure (though they experience other types of pressure on the job) to conform in a man's world this frees them just a bit and places them in a role that these type of men need.....

But again....just my limited observation and this is obviously not always accurate for there are many powerful men who love women who are successful and accomplished as well.....

Peace Ladies,
Virtue
This is definitely an open-ended question.
The factors as to why black men do not want or may not want to stay committed to educated black females are many...but as ususally the case, the factors are multifactorial, involving both men and women and these are interdependent on each other...no vacuums operating here!
On the part of the men, there are issues such as fragile egoes and the need to have someone less educated or less of an equal to be their spouse...theis in turn is not an isolated factor...it is a product of both internal tactors..ie upbringing etc and societal dictates which demand that for respect, a man must be as least an equal in school, wages etc or risk the probability of being having one's balls stripped off. I have seen it over and over and heard as well as to the validity of this. I must say that I personally have long strived to fight this aspect..the expectation that I should marry a country bumpkin so she would be at my every beck and call but this I do not want as it just reminds me of the unequality that I witnessed in my family, one I have grown to hate.
On the part of the women, it is also a combination of things, mostly which Ironhorse stated...That special mate that a given sista might be looking for is p[robvably her friend, or the guy that says hi to her daily yet she ignores bceause he is not rich enough, or is not handsome enough or he is too dark or he is blue collar or the simple fact that he is just a friend. My best relatioships started off as a friends and the worst were mismatched hookups by friends or cousins. Yes, it is cool to aspire the gods and goddesses but ofttimes they tend to ignore those lesser than them or use them. Also, I think another confounding factor is that oftimes, educated sistas just appear to seem overbearing at home..it is ok to be aggressive at work but at home..it is another story. I am not saying that educated sistas should become the subservent mama at hoem but on the same token, who wants an overbearing sista or man for that matter at home barking orders and undermining her or his mate's ideas or decisions. And finally, maybe this maybe reflective of the fact that many singles both men and females are just not interested in getting married but havent come to the truth with temselves and put out a front that they want a committed relationship but it is only false pretenses.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
IRONHORSE, do you strive to be the primary breadwinner in your (future) home?


Come on, Frenchy--spit out the rest of your comment. I won't bite your head off, LOL!!

Somehow, most of you feel that because I can be rather aggressive in my threads that I'm some kind of beast or something. Damn, people, it's just the internet!

Never at any point of time in my life did I think I was going to be the primary breadwinner in my household. I grew up in a household where, even when my parents were married, my mom made almost as much as my dad did and more considering he was layed off half the time.

My parents divorced when I was 12 so for the majority of my life I was used to seeing my mom being the breadwinner of the family. At the very least, in my ideal marriage, we both will be breadwinners. Will I care if my wife makes more money than me? Hell no--it just means she'll have more money of her own to spend and stay out of my damn pockets, LOL!!!

Seriously though, Whether I have more education or make more money than my future wife or vise versa, I would look at it as a blessing for both of us--something that we will both benefit from. The more money either one of us makes the better our lifestyles will be. The more advancement we make in our professional lives as we grow and prosper in our marriage the more it will benefit us and what we are trying to accomplish--love and happiness.
quote:
To Ironhorse, I am sorry you have encountered these bad dates. My girls and I are not like those women. All we really want is to come home to a strong Black man and say "Baby, how was your day" and really listen to his answer so that when we talk about our days he really listens to us. We want to share our lives with a man that appreciates and values us as we value him.--Nikcara


Thank you for your apology, Nikcara, but there really is no need--you didn't raise those sisters and you most definately shouldn't feel any more responsible for their actions than good brothers should feel responsible for the irresponsible, abusive, neglectful actions lesser brothers have committed towards sisters.

I'm aware that there are millions of beautiful, open-minded, self-confident, wonderful, well-rounded sisters out there. I have never allowed my bad experiences with women get in the way of my happiness, besides, the good experiences I've had far exceed the bad ones.

It's unfortunate that men or women of any race, for that matter, should have to endure any type of rejection or bad times, however, it's necessary in order to build character.

I have to agree with Felix on the subject of competing sisters. My woman can be as competetive as she wants in the board room but I don't want to have to butt heads with her and constantly have to fight for position in the relationship at home. Cuss your boss out at work or stomp on your employees but, please, be kinder and gentler at home.

Hey, I'm very aggressive and ambitious on the job but once I walk out of the front door and get into my car, I want the first thing that comes to my mind to be how I'm going to curl up with my woman and enjoy a peaceful, quiet conversation. I want to enjoy coming home, not make a detour to happy hour with the boys so I can build up enough nerve to deal with 'the little woman' at home.
quote:
Originally posted by IRONHORSE:
I have to agree with Felix on the subject of competing sisters. My woman can be as competetive as she wants in the board room but I don't want to have to butt heads with her and constantly have to fight for position in the relationship at home. Cuss your boss out at work or stomp on your employees but, please, be kinder and gentler at home.

Hey, I'm very aggressive and ambitious on the job but once I walk out of the front door and get into my car, I want the first thing that comes to my mind to be how I'm going to curl up with my woman and enjoy a peaceful, quiet conversation. I want to enjoy coming home, not make a detour to happy hour with the boys so I can build up enough nerve to deal with 'the little woman' at home.


Please Nikcara ....I hope that I have not portrayed myself as one who believes that all a sister needs to do is cook, look pretty and dumb herself down to be appealing to men......If I have I apologize....

I am trying to convey a similar message to the one above stated by IRONHORSE.....that the "process" of degree attainment and success in a career comes with special challenges that not many women handle well.....and don't see....and that is that they have become keen competitors in a work force dominated by men.....and this is fine for work....and many men are attracted to a sister who is ambitious and focused....and not a gold digger....but this process seems to have left out some of the warmth of a woman in her subtleties and nuances....a warmth that brothers may long for in their relationships.....

Also, as far as the higher/lower status worker relationship.....consider that a woman can be a partner or a helper....although it may seem unfair that many men want a helper.....there are many men that don't....but in my experience an alpha male simply does not wish this.....but not all men are alpha males (for lack of a better term)...and not all alpha males want helpers.....it's just that many women are attracted to the alpha male that desires a helper.....because this type of male has many alluring masculine traits....but he is not the majority of men......

In these helper relationships the time spent can actually become more intimate because the nature of the work is one of gratitude and endearment coming from the boss/higher up.....as opposed to in a partnership the emotions that flow forth may possibly be expectance.....you expect your equal to be on par with you....and although you are grateful for their input the nature of this relationship may not engender the feelings of endearment that come along with it....service is attractive

I am not saying that I believe that women should not pursue higher education or make their own money.....I am simply saying that in this pursuit lets not shed off all of what makes us unique as women.....

Peace,
Virtue
bangAgain, I think the conversation is great, but it seems to be boiling down to the same point. Virtue, I am sorry, but I have to strongly disagree with you. If a man is so insecure about is own intellegence that he can only tolerate a helper, than woe to us all. My Gran, dad's mom,got to see me graduate from law school and she, with a sixth grade education, said " Now you can kick butt instead of lick butt". I took her to mean, years later, that I do not have to take a man dolling out my allowance, I do not have to tolerate infidelity, I do not have to tolerate physical abuse; I come to the table with something other than my body to offer for pleasure or use as a vesel for childbearing.

I guess my question, and perhaps it was poorly phrased, went to the point that women who should be, and I re-affirm Ironhorse, "prime wife material" are not having children in the numbers that we should be, and that is going to do real damage to us as a race in the long run.

White men for what ever reason do not have a problem marrying women who are educated the same or greater than themselves. Gone are the days when white doctors marry white nurses now they marry the doctor, or asian doctor marries the laundress from the old country, he marries with MBA who owns/operates 5 cleaners.

All of my white girlfriends from the prosecutor's office either married while there or just after they left. All of my black girlfriends either had children out of wedlock or got pregnant to get married. Yes the women I am discussing Black or White are all attorneys. Now, secretaries at the prosecutor's office got married, one even married a judge but ofcourse she was 15 years his junior and yes they are Black.

I guess what I see in this trend is the fact that wealth be it financial or cultural is built by passing it on to the next generation. If the UPS Driver and the Macy's sales associate get married have kids the only asset they pass on is the house; thier kids have student loans that kick in right after college. If the Engineer and the CPA get married they pass on the house, stocks, bonds and thier kids have no college loans because Mom and Dad have the discretionary income to foot the bill and the graduate debt free from college and only have to maybe worry about grad school but if they are like some of my friends, maybe Mom and Dad foot the bill for that too.

I guess my concern is that the only way for the student loans to be available to the kids that really need them if for parent who can afford to pay actually pay, if we are getting to the point that all of our kids, 70% born out of wedlock, are not getting to the starting block where does that leave us as a race?

The Supreme Court case that dealt with college education is a real problem. If you can't get into college, grad school is never an issue. In the world to day, like it or not the days of having the good factory job are over, so where do our kids have to go to earn a decent living and not become renters for the rest of thier lives. There is a real problem here and I guess I am failing in expressing the gravity of the situation, cause I am at working trying to socialize on the net. More to come latter. I'll get the case I am talking about.
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
bangAgain, I think the conversation is great, but it seems to be boiling down to the same point. Virtue, I am sorry, but I have to strongly disagree with you. If a man is so insecure about is own intellegence that he can only tolerate a helper, than woe to us all.




Peace Nikcara.....

Hmmm.....May I ask your opinion of my statements posted before?


quote:
I am not saying that I believe that women should not pursue higher education or make their own money......I am simply saying that in this pursuit let's not shed off all of what makes us unique as women......


quote:
But again.....just my limited observation and this is obviously not always accurate for there are many powerful men who love women who are successful and accomplished as well.....



Peace,
Virtue
Let me be clear, Nikcara--well, actually, let me back up a minute about the "certain caliber" in relation to that "prime wife material" thing. Well, back when I first came to this site, I was considered arrogant for stating that I was a "certain caliber" without the person doing the labeling even asking for clarification.

Nakcara, let me say that I am completely for women like you and women of your nature, in other words, "prime wife material." I don't want a woman in my life that would be a "helper." Damn, I can "help" myself--I know how to cook, clean, sew, wash my own clothes, proper maintenance of my car, etc. I don't want a "helper" I want an equal.

Yes, I know--there are a lot of insecure brothers out there that are foolish enough to run away from good strong sisters. Let me at them fools--I'd sit em' down and tell em' like it is--especially these fools that run around in these larger cities where more affluent sisters like you and your friends live.

Those brothers don't understand--many of these big city sisters were originally from the small towns of America's best and brightest and flock to the larger cities in order to get the better jobs. That leaves us brothers they left behind with two options: follow them to the bigger cities or stay behind and put up with Bertha or Thelma.

I happen to be involved with a woman that lives in a larger city and runs her own small business. It's in my blood--I desire strong-willed, ambitious, independent, goal-oriented women. My woman is as strong and multi-tasking as they come but behind closed doors she's a purring kitten.

I know you're frustrated, Nikcara, and I understand how you feel. You'd think good brothers would have it easy since the odds are in our favor. Unfortunately, we have to deal with just as many problems as our female counterparts have to deal with. Sometimes, it's simply a matter of an inbalance of a certain class of people just as there is an inbalance in the available numbers of single brothers to single sisters.

All I can say, Nakcara, is hold on and pray--keep your head up. There are more good brothers out there than you think. It may have to take trying a dating service. It may take having to try online dating. It may take having to find someone in another state. Ebony magazine came out with an issue a few years ago, spotlighting career professionals that are maintaining long-distance relationships comprimising and valuing the three most important things that make a relationship work and last: Love, trust, friendship.
Virtue, I do not think that we are really that far apart on our views, globally. And I hope that you take my comments as part of the conversation not as any thing directly negative, I believe in sprited discussions and I am truly enjoying all the comments posted back and forth even if they disagree with me. People disagree with me every day.

I do believe, however, and correct me if I am wrong, that if you have a daughter you want more for her than you had, thus she would go beyond college to grad school. Who would be left for her to date let alone marry if Black men continue on thier trend in reference to educated Black women. There would be no point for her to dream of being a doctor because to reach her intellectual potential she must scarifice what my girls and I crave, one marriage with one man to grow emotionally, financially and old with till the end of our days.

My parents have been married for 45 years this August. Why must your daughter or any daughter scarifice becoming a doctor just to get married. Why must she become a ballerina or singer or artist to reach her potential in an area that is safe enough for the Black man's ego to say she is at the top of her profession so it is ok to be with her, it not like she is a brain surgeon or nuclear physicist.

There is something wrong when we teach our daughters to be self-sufficent and then penalize them for doing as they were told.
quote:
There would be no point for her to dream of being a doctor because to reach her intellectual potential she must scarifice what my girls and I crave, one marriage with one man to grow emotionally, financially and old with till the end of our days.


I think it's a legitimate sacrifice. Women are going to have to put off this "cake and eat it too" mentality. Choose a path, and expect the statistical outcome. I don't think that there are any magic fairy dusts out there that women can sprinkle on men, that would facilitate a relationship that would enable women to enjoy the best of both worlds. Because the truth is, as Virtue pointed out, there are two types of women, that will get two different types of "happy" endings. One will reap the benefits of an independent successful career. The other will enjoy a life of family values.

As for me. I'd rather have an helpmate. If that makes me insecure, then so be it. I find a peace in helpmates that I would never trade in, for the financial benefit of having a co-equal partner. There is a peace there that money can't provide.
quote:
One will reap the benefits of an independent successful career. The other will enjoy a life of family values.


Hate to tell you there are Black women who do have it all. Again, the problem is not us, it is Brothas who cannot deal with having it all.

quote:
I think it's a legitimate sacrifice. Women are going to have to put off this "cake and eat it too" mentality.


I wonder if the men who dragged our ancestors out of Africa said to themselves, my financial gain is a good reason to enslave an entire race. The loss of their freedom is a legitimate sacrifice for me and mine to have a better life in this new world. I was oppressed in Europe, so I will come to the Americas and oppress others because as a white man, the Creator endowed me with inalienable rights, and they only apply to me.

It is statements like yours that make me thank God everyday for my dad, he was the main person pushing me to go to law school. I guess he knew that the brothas like you out numbered the strong Black men like him 10 to 1 so he wanted me to be able to thrive and not just survive. My dad always used to tell me that I was not alone, even gave me a NY Times article in 1993 which detailed the story of a Black woman with her MBA and no Black man to share it with. How many fold has that number been multiplied by time we reached this year of our Lord, 2005.

quote:
If that makes me insecure, then so be it. I find a peace in helpmates that I would never trade in, for the financial benefit of having a co-equal partner.


The financial benefit of a co-equal partner is nothing in comparison to the benefit of the co-equal partner in life. I hope that you have a daughter so that when she says Daddy I want to be the next Dr. Mae Jemison, you can say "Baby to be an astronaut you have to be smart. You can't be smart because you are Black and Female, I just want you to be my pretty princess. Because you were born with two XX,[looks like human chromosomes doesn't it, white women, in deed all women have this.... ummm] and since I'm your dad, I'll give you the third X, killing your self-esteem and self-worth in the process, so like in baseball your out. Your role as a woman, my daughter is to assist not to think, so be a object like a stripper or playboy bunny. Your role is to bear children, cook and clean for your husband. Think of Wife as acronym not a word. W-wash, I-iron, F-fu**, E-entertain. So run along, and Daddy will set up that pole for you down stairs in the basement so you can start practicing now at 11 years old".

I am so glad you admitted your insecurity, I just hope your children, boys or girls, can see well beyond your narrow view. If not, the entire spectrum of the Black middle class will end in the next generation. We will be left with a few rich Black folks and a legion of poor Black folks trying to make ends meet with their service industry jobs.

This problem is real and you unfortunately are to blind and insecure to see it.

The lack of equality does not buy peace, just look at race relations here in the USA or the world for that matter. Only equality as difficult as it is to achieve creates everlasting peace. But I guess you are too insecure to see that simple truth. I thank you for comment, but I very saddened by depth of your lack of insight.
quote:
Hate to tell you there are Black women who do have it all. Again, the problem is not us, it is Brothas who cannot deal with having it all.


But the reality seems to be that if you want a brotha, you have to give up some of that achievement. Yes, it sucks that things are not different, but they are what they are. Sure, there are some Black women who "have it all" but they appear to be in the minority. Otherwise, we wouldn't be here discussing why well-accomplished/well-educated women are, more often than not, single.

quote:
It is statements like yours that make me thank God everyday for my dad, he was the main person pushing me to go to law school. I guess he knew that the brothas like you out numbered the strong Black men like him 10 to 1 so he wanted me to be able to thrive and not just survive. My dad always used to tell me that I was not alone, even gave me a NY Times article in 1993 which detailed the story of a Black woman with her MBA and no Black man to share it with.


Out of curiosity Nikcara, what did your father tell you about Black women's romantic outlook?

quote:
I hope that you have a daughter so that when she says Daddy I want to be the next Dr. Mae Jemison, you can say "Baby to be an astronaut you have to be smart. You can't be smart because you are Black and Female, I just want you to be my pretty princess. Because you were born with two XX,[looks like human chromosomes doesn't it, white women, in deed all women have this.... ummm] and since I'm your dad, I'll give you the third X, killing your self-esteem and self-worth in the process, so like in baseball your out. Your role as a woman, my daughter is to assist not to think, so be a object like a stripper or playboy bunny. Your role is to bear children, cook and clean for your husband. Think of Wife as acronym not a word. W-wash, I-iron, F-fu**, E-entertain. So run along, and Daddy will set up that pole for you down stairs in the basement so you can start practicing now at 11 years old".


I think Black men still want a smart woman (who wants someone who's dumb as a box of hair?!? LOL!), it's the degrees/career/ambition/"corporate personality" that seem to cause a bit of trouble. In all honesty, I would've prefered that my parents explain something similar to what you wrote above when I was growing up. Not that I have to let go of all of my educational goals, but that there is a certain trade-off a lot of times and until the world changes, that it what I will face and I should be prepared. It would've saved me a lot of confusion (and an unfortunate time in my life when I used to be sort of hostile toward "stupid" women because of the "undeserved" attention they received from males...oy). "Prime wife material" seems to be a woman who is primarily concerned with being a wife.

Nikcara, will you tell your future daughters that they can "have it all?"

quote:
If not, the entire spectrum of the Black middle class will end in the next generation. We will be left with a few rich Black folks and a legion of poor Black folks trying to make ends meet with their service industry jobs.


I'm not sure how you are reaching this conclusion. Successful Black men are still getting married (and presumably continuing the Black middle class). You mentioned several Black women who chose to have children out of wedlock and they are also contributing to the future Black middle class.
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
Virtue, I do not think that we are really that far apart on our views, globally. And I hope that you take my comments as part of the conversation not as any thing directly negative, I believe in sprited discussions and I am truly enjoying all the comments posted back and forth even if they disagree with me. People disagree with me every day.

I do believe, however, and correct me if I am wrong, that if you have a daughter you want more for her than you had, thus she would go beyond college to grad school. Who would be left for her to date let alone marry if Black men continue on thier trend in reference to educated Black women. There would be no point for her to dream of being a doctor because to reach her intellectual potential she must scarifice what my girls and I crave, one marriage with one man to grow emotionally, financially and old with till the end of our days.

My parents have been married for 45 years this August. Why must your daughter or any daughter scarifice becoming a doctor just to get married. Why must she become a ballerina or singer or artist to reach her potential in an area that is safe enough for the Black man's ego to say she is at the top of her profession so it is ok to be with her, it not like she is a brain surgeon or nuclear physicist.

There is something wrong when we teach our daughters to be self-sufficent and then penalize them for doing as they were told.


Dearest Nikcara,
You seem to have a rather gloomy outlook on the blight of educated sistas in not finding a man and that black men educated or not are hell bent on not marrying an educated sista. This maybe true in many cases ....but Frenchy pointed out, there are brothas (I for one and I believe a good portion of men on the forum) DEMAND that the potential wife be just as educated as most of us men are ( me: a pathologist in training).

So, yes, I want her to have a JD or MD or PhD..or Masters. Experience has taught me well and hard that an educated sista is the best route for me. Needless to say, I will admit that this was not always the case...I just learned that I have to stop seeking non-intellectual sistas...bad combo...really bad...the tears are welling! Ok Composure!
All I am say in sum is that there are brothas out there who truly desire a smart, witty, educated sista.. (such coolness)...it just might mean that the dude is already your friend, colleague at work etc...and not someone afar.
In this instance, I have to honestly admit that my past negative experiences with men have contributed to my unwillingness to want to deal with that type of drama again, so I have to turn the tables on this one.

After working grueling hours at my firm, dealing with my staff (which is not always easy), taking all the heavy hits because I am ultimately responsible for everything that goes on, it is difficult for me to "shift gears" and go home and play the role of mother rather than partner.

I lack the capacity to deal with a man who can not understand how hard I worked to get where I am and that I am with him because I want - and not need - a companion. I learned that everyone is responsible for themselves and their own happiness. Far too often, love and relationships are fleeting and can't be trusted. Many people can't even define love, so how do you know if you are in it?

I am not unapproachable, however. If someone takes the time to approaches me, I will give my undivided attention and every opportunity to get to know me, but I don't seek anyone out. I love men and always will, but I am growing weary of the battles that seems to go on endlessly between brothers and sisters, and I refuse to play in the snow.

Marriage is not a pre-requisite for a full and happy life, but being comfortable in my own space and my own skin is. If men have commitment issues, I won't make those issues my own. I have enough to deal with as it is.

Folo, you have the right idea and I appreciate the fact that you seem to truly desire someone who you can partner with. I respect that. I personally don't care if a man flips burgers or performs brain surgery - I just want to know he is all about me at the end of the day, and that is a quality that is difficult to find.

When I read some of the posts on this board that deal with relationships, it drives my point home ever further. We can't even seem to get on the same page with screen names - never mind the offline people behind them. JMHO, of course.
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
Virtue, I do not think that we are really that far apart on our views, globally. And I hope that you take my comments as part of the conversation not as any thing directly negative, I believe in sprited discussions and I am truly enjoying all the comments posted back and forth even if they disagree with me. People disagree with me every day.

I do believe, however, and correct me if I am wrong, that if you have a daughter you want more for her than you had, thus she would go beyond college to grad school. Who would be left for her to date let alone marry if Black men continue on thier trend in reference to educated Black women. There would be no point for her to dream of being a doctor because to reach her intellectual potential she must scarifice what my girls and I crave, one marriage with one man to grow emotionally, financially and old with till the end of our days.

My parents have been married for 45 years this August. Why must your daughter or any daughter scarifice becoming a doctor just to get married. Why must she become a ballerina or singer or artist to reach her potential in an area that is safe enough for the Black man's ego to say she is at the top of her profession so it is ok to be with her, it not like she is a brain surgeon or nuclear physicist.

There is something wrong when we teach our daughters to be self-sufficent and then penalize them for doing as they were told.



Peace Nikcara.....

First I never Welcomed you to the site......Welcome, sister.....Where are my manners she says? (I'm Smiling)

Hmmmmm....I enjoy the discussion....I haven't participated this much in a while....and honestly have no idea why I am doing so now.....It has always been my policy to limit myself on each discussion board I am a part of for each one serves different needs.....by the way Nikcara.....I also belong to a Physics discussion board as well as a cooking site.....she says as she finishes her ironing (smiling again....)

Here I have chosen not to participate in much debate.....I do not like to debate.....but I do like to read debates....much truth can be culled in a debate....but I digress....It is not me you are interested in....it is the discussion.....so....moving on......

Nikcara....

I have not completed my college degree.....but yes, I do wish for my daughter to complete hers....but not for the reasons that most women do so......You seem to equate intelligence with degree attainment......and you are correct....if you want intelligent conversation the first place to go would include those who have spent time in and/or succeeded in attaining degrees from a university of college.....but, why is this.....

See, I come from different circumstances and a different school of thought....

My grandfather worked two jobs to care for the family.....He barely completed high school.....he got his GED later in life....never went to college....almost all of his children did.....and there are many gifted people in my family......But amongst all of us....hands down my grandfather is the most wise man we have ever known......because he is well read....reasons well....is generally humble in spirit (which allows him to listen well) and fierce in debate..(which allows him to sharpen his wit and explain his wisdom and understanding)......my grandfather who worked as a manual labor....had personal relationships with some of the highest men of society in Atlanta....doctors, lawyers, politicians, civil rights leaders......the reason these men adored my grandfather and held him in esteem was obviously not for his degree attainment....it was his life experience, coupled with his reasoning ability and love of learning that gave him a unique sense of insight that others around him simply did not get coming through the college system.....he knew it...they knew it....but he sent many of his children to college.....

When I was born I was raised by this great man and his wife, my grandmother......who raised four children and went to college after raising them.....she taught me at home.....I was labeled "gifted" (not cool with the term).....and she cultivated my thoughts.......it was my grandfather who challenged my thoughts and for some reason became attached to me.....and shared with me many things......I will say no more.....

To this day I am able to converse with those of the highest degree of success in academia as well as the brother on the street.....no big deal....plenty of people are able to do this....I say this because.....most people in academic circles (except for this forum-because of the way I portray myself here)....would never suspect that I am a home maker who never completed a degree.....what I am is intelligent....and what I have a passion for is knowledge, truth and understanding....see this is what I want for my daughter.....college is a "tool" for her to attain this....not to view men as a potential enemy she must prepare early to defeat in case she is left in the cold.....not to compete with men so that she can show them.....not to get a job so that she can work long hours to earn her keep because this is supposed to be dignifying.....not to earn money so that she can survive.....you know what......

May I ask dear sister that you read something I posted...? I will place this in a new topic....I'm sure we may not agree still, after this...In fact....I know we will not agree....but it's hard to convey my thoughts just now....I'm sleepy...... horrible excuse, I know, I apologize.....but I would like to share with you a little more about why I think the way I do......and why it may seem contradictory....is this okay with you?

The title is sister to sister....

Peace,
Virtue....
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
I have been wondering why so many of my sistas and I are in our mid to late thirties with no husbands and no kids. Dark to light skin, tall or short, beautiful to plain, perfect body to overweight, the one thing these all have in common is graduate degrees[doctors,attorneys,engineers, CPAs & MBAs), great careers (note I did not say great job), discretionary income and no kids. To me,we should be prime wife material but it seems like pursuing our intellectual heights made us undesirable to brothas in our age group who are similarly situated. Why is this the case.
Sister Nickara, it seems as those you equate station in life with attractiveness - obviously, this is not necessarily the case.

Presumably, you attained your "intellectual heights" for yourself and your career. Why then, would you expect a man to be attracted to you just because you have done so? Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that you are less attractive as a result, but most men that I know, don't use the type of job a woman has as criteria to determine her dating/marriage "fitness".

As is evidenced by the article posted by Frenchy "Men Just Want Mommy", (I hate the title) men are tending to and trending to marry someone at a lesser station in life than themselves. That does not mean that the women that they have chosen are bimbos either. In other words, just because they are a secretary, does not mean that they are not intellectually on the same level as a doctor or a lawyer, it just means that they don't have the same training.

Speaking for myself, I couldn't care less about how many letters are behind your name, I just look for women who have 2 legs and a heartbeat - just kidding

Seriously, I have found that my best relationships have been found when I was not "looking". That is to say, that I was focused on who I was as a person and how I could be the best that I could be - it was at that point that I started attracting some really great women - regardless of their career. At the points when I was "hunting" I rarely found women who could be "ms. right" as opposed to "ms. right now".

I don't know you or any of your girls, but maybe if you focus on being the best person you can be, you will attract those who are good to you and good for you...

Just as an aside, if you are concerned that a man will be intimidated by how much money you make, then don't tell him... even if he asks. If you are concerned that a man would be intimidated by what degrees you may have, then don't tell him... I am not saying that you should lie, but in reality those things have no bearing on the relationship, so why bring them up?

JMHO.
Nikcara,
quote:
It is statements like yours that make me thank God everyday for my dad, he was the main person pushing me to go to law school. I guess he knew that the brothas like you out numbered the strong Black men like him 10 to 1 so he wanted me to be able to thrive and not just survive


I'll entertain your suggestion that I'm weak-willed, weak-minded, and ill-advised about feminine contributions to a relationship. I'll also entertain the implication that I'm in desperate need of a weak sista who can't think for herself.

Holding those attributes that you've appointed to me constant, one can conclude that no real woman, (in her right mind), would ever consider subjecting herself to such a chauvinist.

But see, sista Nikcara, your problem is not with me or men like me. Your problem is with the many women who choose a different route in life. Your problem is with women don't have as hard a time as you do considering their choices and investing themselves full-heartedly into either of the trade-offs.

New Title: Why can't more black women immerse themselves into their career and education like me?

When will black women stop letting these black men force them to stay at home and take care of the house?

I myself love and appreciate all the Condoleza Rice's out their (highly educated). But even moreso I love a Maya Angelou (conscious). You put those two gifted women in the same room with a man, and the conscious woman will always grab the man's soul. A conscious woman can read a man like a book. A highly educated woman would have a hard time figuring out 'what' he likes, while the conscious woman can detail 'why'. A conscious woman is Peace, Love, and Understanding. A highly educated woman is "Let's make a deal", an arrangement, a pre-nuptual (did I spell that right?) agreement.
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
I have been wondering why so many of my sistas and I are in our mid to late thirties with no husbands and no kids. Dark to light skin, tall or short, beautiful to plain, perfect body to overweight, the one thing these all have in common is graduate degrees[doctors,attorneys,engineers, CPAs & MBAs), great careers (note I did not say great job), discretionary income and no kids. To me,we should be prime wife material but it seems like pursuing our intellectual heights made us undesirable to brothas in our age group who are similarly situated. Why is this the case.


i think an equally important question is why are we sisters still so focused on men? why are sisters insisting on only dating black men? if the biological clock is a problem, we can have babies without benefit of a husband. since sixty percent of marriages end with divorce anyway, most of us will be single mothers anyway. there's nothing wrong with carribean men, hispanic men, white men or asian men etc. black men don't limit themselves to only black dating. why should we? sisters need to open up the options.
Hmmm....Nikcara ,

Well, I can say that I do not fit into any of the choices you have listed and maybe that is part of the problem. It SEEMS as if you believe that men should fit into one of the options listed.

I notice that when I am not so obsessed with looking for someone, or not coming up with reasons why I can't find someone, I usually meet good/longterm relationship material/committment minded women.

If the question was reversed, you'd get the same responses from the opposite sex.

"Why can't single Black women commit to a real relationship with educated brothers?"
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
I have been wondering why so many of my sistas and I are in our mid to late thirties with no husbands and no kids. .................... the one thing these all have in common is graduate degrees[doctors,attorneys,engineers, CPAs & MBAs), great careers (note I did not say great job), discretionary income and no kids. To me,we should be prime wife material but it seems like pursuing our intellectual heights made us undesirable to brothas in our age group who are similarly situated. Why is this the case.


Well I believe you hit the nail on the head without realizing it. You said you should be prime wife material because you have these degrees and qualifications? That is where you are patently mistaken and wrong. The question is since the beginning of time, when did men ever say the one thing they find most attractive about the female is her knowledge? If this is how our sisters are thinking hence the motivation for higher education then the boat left them behind long ago. I hope that is not the case because if it is then it can be said they have the book knowledge to get the Degrees and a good job job but they lack basic common sense.

For women to attract men all the woman needs is to be more feminine. It works like a charm on any man. It is no different from how a macho man is very attractive to women.

It is said black men are marrying other women but not black women. I have a suspicion that these women that black men find so desirable do not have these qualifications and even if they did, they do not place BA.s Bsc. MBA,s and PhD's as very important achievements to their self development. Having those qualifications does not make any woman prime wife material, if anything it limits her options and choices, especially so if the motivation for attainment of those qualifications is to make her more wifey material.

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