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**And to think we have blacks (a small percentage) who think long these lines and affiliate themselves with Bush.....there is not a logical reason for a black person to do so.

NEW MEMOS PROVIDE FURTHER EVIDENCE THAT CHIEF JUSTICE NOMINEE JOHN ROBERTS IS NO FRIEND OF AFRICAN AMERICANS

The late Chief Justice William Rehnquist had a long record of supporting segregation of black people. In his years as a law clerk at the Supreme Court, Rehnquist advocated, in a brief for a case leading up to Brown v. Board of Education, that the 1896 decision in Plessy v. Ferguson, which established the separate but equal doctrine, be reaffirmed. A year later Rehnquist wrote in another memo, "It is about time the Court faced the fact that the white people of the South don't like the colored people."
Now President Bush has nominated Judge John Roberts to serve as Chief Justice of the United States. Recently released documents reveal that Roberts may hold views very similar to Rehnquist's. In 1982 Roberts urged Attorney General William French Smith to push for legislation permanently barring the use of racial preferences to redress past employment discrimination. He also told Smith it "makes eminent sense" to call for legislation to ban school busing for the purposes of racial integration.

The Roberts nomination to fill the Rehnquist seat will not change the political dynamic of the Supreme Court as one strong conservative will replace another. As was the case previously, the major battle to save affirmative action in higher education will rest on who is now nominated to fill the seat of Justice Sandra Day O'Connor.
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more for the blkCON's to explain:

THE DANGER OF ELIMINATING RACE AS A FACTOR IN THE ADMISSIONS PROCESS

Boston Latin High School is the most prestigious and selective of the public high schools in Boston. Founded in 1635 Boston Latin lists John Hancock, Benjamin Franklin, and Ralph Waldo Emerson among its alumni.
Six years ago a federal judge ruled that Boston Latin could not use race as a factor in its admissions policies. Since that time black enrollments at Boston Latin have plummeted 42 percent from 435 to 250 students. Hispanic enrollments have dropped 32 percent in the same period.

Whites are 14 percent of all students in the Boston public schools. But they are nearly 54 percent of the student body at Boston Latin.

Clearly this huge drop in black enrollments at Boston Latin will do serious damage to the prospects of African-American students from Boston's public schools to gain an education necessary for them to compete and be admitted to our nation's most selective colleges and universities.
OXFORD UNIVERSITY CONCEDES THAT IT NEEDS TO DO MORE TO INCREASE THE RACIAL DIVERSITY OF ITS FACULTY AND ADMINISTRATION

A study by equal opportunity officers at Oxford University in England has concluded that the university needs to do more to recruit qualified black and minority scholars for teaching and administrative positions. The report calls for "positive action" to encourage more blacks to apply for such positions.
In making the report the university noted that it did not know the ethnic makeup of its faculty or administration. In an effort to gauge progress, in the future all employees will be asked to state their ethnic group or to state that they do not want to disclose this information.
TEXAS A&M LOOKS TO TURN A NEW LEAF

Blacks are only 2.3 percent of the nearly 36,000 undergraduate students at Texas A&M University in College Station. The university, which did not admit black students until 1963, continues to have a reputation as not being a hospitable place for blacks.
Even after the Hopwood decision was overturned by the U.S. Supreme Court in the Grutter case, Texas A&M has declined to consider race in its admissions decisions. But the university declares that it is making an effort to increase black enrollments. More than $8 million has been allocated for scholarship programs targeted toward low-income students. The university has opened recruiting centers in predominantly black neighborhoods in major Texas cities. Its Very Important Prospects (VIP) program picks up prospective black students in SUVs across the state of Texas and drives them to College Station for recruiting sessions.

One black freshman on campus this year told the Houston Chronicle that a friend asked him, "Why go to school where the white folks go?" He responded, "Because they let me in and they paid me to go to school."
quote:
So, are you saying 4 decades have not brought about this goal of 'access to better facilities' yet?
Your original question was:
What were the goals, or intentions, of instituting these things in society?

Kevin answered just that. That's clear to see. And take that "So are you saying..." BS back to WHITE STREET or wherever you get that lame ass rhetoric.

Where were the "racial quotas"? I know I've hardly seen the MLK type of quotas enacted. What "quotas" are you talking about?

And I've already had to correct CF on that Busing BS. Please don't make the same dumb assumptive mistake.
quote:
Originally posted by JanesT:
Not much of an answer. You had seemed so passionate on the issue.

So, are you saying 4 decades have not brought about this goal of 'access to better facilities' yet?



yep..that is my answer....be glad I had something to say to your azz...and no the goal is partially fulfilled but no where near being met in a satisfactory answer....sorry to burst your bubble and not list sitting with white folks as my perception of what the goal of the black struggle was...it is not about social issues...many of us could give a fuck less about laying up with white people.....just like many of ya'll could give a f-k less about interracial relationships also...
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
more for the blkCON's to explain:

THE DANGER OF ELIMINATING RACE AS A FACTOR IN THE ADMISSIONS PROCESS

Boston Latin High School is the most prestigious and selective of the public high schools in Boston. Founded in 1635 Boston Latin lists John Hancock, Benjamin Franklin, and Ralph Waldo Emerson among its alumni.
Six years ago a federal judge ruled that Boston Latin could not use race as a factor in its admissions policies. Since that time black enrollments at Boston Latin have plummeted 42 percent from 435 to 250 students. Hispanic enrollments have dropped 32 percent in the same period.

Whites are 14 percent of all students in the Boston public schools. But they are nearly 54 percent of the student body at Boston Latin.

Clearly this huge drop in black enrollments at Boston Latin will do serious damage to the prospects of African-American students from Boston's public schools to gain an education necessary for them to compete and be admitted to our nation's most selective colleges and universities.


Kevin41-
I understand why you included this since you & CF battle about AA programs. I'm confused by the conclusion here though. Are you suggesting that Boston Latin is the only school in the Boston public system that can provide Blacks with a quality education or credentials worthy of college admission? Considering that this high school can't teach all the Black students in Boston - wouldn't it be useful to cull what is so successful at this school & begin to implement it at others?
quote:
Considering that this high school can't teach all the Black students in Boston - wouldn't it be useful to cull what is so successful at this school & begin to implement it at others?

Sometimes, the point being made (and the thread topic itself in many instances) is lost in the battle to belittle, berate, and be right.
And, DD... who really has missed that point?

What I'm asking, as I have posed to CF, what have Black CONservatives (or those who make it a point to make the point you're making) done in that regard?

When we look over that landscape, by and large, it's the "liberals" or radicals who have taken up that mantle and actually built schools trying to implement at least something different, if not the best models they are aware of.

So, really, your critique, though important, hardly seems warranted. The "battle" or debate here is along the lines drawn around AA. The discussion has hardly been about the whole range of things useful or instructive towards the ultimate... So to basically assume, as you have, that replicating effective models has been overlooked is a idea that's unfounded and hardly within the scope of what's been discussed. That is, you're interjecting something that's really not part of the conversation. The title of the thread is?

Now, your point and the way you expressed it would be justified if this thread-discussion was about what amounts to quality education and what things have to be done to pursue and secure it for most or all.

Funny how Kevin's opinion on vouchers, e.g., would strike againt this idea that one good school(s) or such quality education scheme/regime would or could teach the most or all...
Before the distractions, the ultimate question kevin is if we have not attained those goals thru 4 entire decades, or 3 generations, why on earth would you cling so strongly to something that obviously is not doing the trick? Is there a lack of better ideas from the community?

Reminds me of the public schools issue. You got these big powerful unions, and victimized public school parents, who keep telling us we must pour yet more money into these schools, that the public system must be saved at all costs, yet it seems to be failing our youth bigtime, rather than getting better, and I keep asking, what on earth are you holding onto failure for?

-
quote:
Why on earth would you cling so strongly to something that obviously is not doing the trick?
Doing what "trick"?

The problem is you weak ant-aa people try to act like aa was proposed or is proposed as a cure-all. You can't sustain an argument without that false premise.

Now, at no point have you or CF presented an alternative, much less a functional or more beneficial one. Just inane rhetoric about how little AA does. Ummm... the way you have expressed your ideas saying that does not denigrate AA it denigrates your lack of better ideas which have not been forthcoming. You're the one with a problem with it. It's incumbent on you to present alternatives and not just rhetoric stating why you are against AA.

Oh and that "trick" thing... that goes back to what I asked you before which goes to the heart of your ideas here:
What were the goals, or intentions, of instituting these things in society?

You know you don't have question asking privileges around here. That is, until you answer some questions. Now it's your turn. Step up.
When it came time to put their votes on the side of justice these White Conservative judges voted against justice for the Black man. They instead chose to maintain the status quo and keep the food of the White man on the Black man's neck.

White nationalists are a threat to Black people and our interests in America. I applaud all of the groups of conscious who stand against John Roberts ever reaching the court.

He is nothing more than an expression of the contempt that Bush and other racists have against Black people via their policies.

Bush and the White power is attempting to take over all 3 branches of government. Their ascendency to the court only spells trouble for Black people who challenge them and refuse to join in to the death march for Black people that the unconscious Black Conservatives work for every day they are alive. These Black Conservatives are people inside the club who don't want to lose their position by being too loud and want to make sure that other Blacks don't get in to ruin the exclusivity of the club to where they are no longer the "lawn jockey" for show.
quote:
Originally posted by JanesT:
Before the distractions, the ultimate question kevin is if we have not attained those goals thru 4 entire decades, or 3 generations, why on earth would you cling so strongly to something that obviously is not doing the trick? Is there a lack of better ideas from the community?

Reminds me of the public schools issue. You got these big powerful unions, and victimized public school parents, who keep telling us we must pour yet more money into these schools, that the public system must be saved at all costs, yet it seems to be failing our youth bigtime, rather than getting better, and I keep asking, what on earth are you holding onto failure for?

-


*people still use gasoline in cars because it beats getting on the freeway and walking doesn't it....my thing is....who in the fuck determined that AA as a corrective measure from past racist azz actions has served its purpose? Who determined that black people had attained full equality? And since I am not the one working to dismantle something that worked effectively for 30+ years, why don't you ask those who work to do so why they did not come up with a better alternative themselves? They were the ones so damn dissatisfied with AA. The cold part is...is that racists and uncletom house negroes are pussy motherfuckers......because they knew what the results of an AA repeal would be...lowered black college enrollment and professional inclusion...and that was the intent the right and the blkCON lackey had in mind...it is an extension of racist YT trying to limit the opportunities of black people and the blckCON's support is just an outward display of their loyal "COONING" for the right....nothing more....and for the fact you two groups try to convince me of any other intent.....proves that you are both master/slave relationship acting out idiots......
quote:
Now, at no point have you or CF presented an alternative, much less a functional or more beneficial one. Just inane rhetoric about how little AA does. Ummm... the way you have expressed your ideas saying that does not denigrate AA it denigrates your lack of better ideas which have not been forthcoming. You're the one with a problem with it. It's incumbent on you to present alternatives and not just rhetoric stating why you are against AA.




**And as I stated inmy last post Nmaginate....that is why they are idiots...even IF I was totally satisfied with AA as cure-all (which I am damn sure not...but idiots have to put words in my mouth to try and strengthen their weak azz idiot-based logic) I did not work to repeal it...they did....so the onus is on them to present an alternative, which they cannot or refuse to do....which just demonstrates their racist and cooning intent.....CF cannot even answer logical questions about the motivation for such a stance on the issue and has the nerve to lie low on those questions for a while as if I forgot I presented them to him...and then re-asserts himself on the topic from the premise that we never had the previous discussions that he has already diverted, deflected and ignored....he must think I suffer from that Adult ADD schit that hinders his own ability to answer a question directly...man what an idiot.....
quote:
I am not the one working to dismantle something that worked effectively for 30+ years, why don't you ask those who work to do so why they did not come up with a better alternative themselves?



You are correct Kevin. If the White man has a problem with the Affirmative Action program in which a few Black kids are allowed to attend school beside his white kids then he needs to come up with an alternative plan because Black people need to go to school also. I feel you man.

Affirmative Action is an important public policy milestone that capped off centuries of racial oppression. They owe us an alternative if they don't like AA.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

And, DD... who really has missed that point?
[/QUOTE]

I got the point of the post - I commented becuase there was a shift from a statement of facts in the first two paragraphs of Kevin's post on Boston Latin to an editorial in the last. The inclusion of the editorial led to my question. There is no evidence provided to show that "Clearly this huge drop in black enrollments at Boston Latin will do serious damage to the prospects of African-American students from Boston's public schools to gain an education necessary for them to compete and be admitted to our nation's most selective colleges and universities." Adding the last paragraph without statistics to prove the assertion leaves nothing to discuss (in the specific example given - which is what Kevin is asking conservatives to justify).
quote:
There is no evidence provided to show that "Clearly this huge drop in black enrollments at Boston Latin will do serious damage to the prospects of African-American students from Boston's public schools to gain an education necessary for them to compete and be admitted to our nation's most selective colleges and universities."
Well, DD, that 42% drop in Black Enrollment seems to be proof, in and of itself - like it or not whether it says enough or not - that this particular vechile has been scaled down drastically. Drastically decreasing the chances. But it's funny how you don't examine the logic and arguments of those who hardly ever present stats or objective information in support of their positions.

And, moreover, your very own comments make the Boston Latin example one where you too invest a degree of certitude into how much is lost with that 42% Drop in Black Enrollment there. Hmmmm...
Considering that this high school can't teach all the Black students in Boston - wouldn't it be useful to cull what is so successful at this school & begin to implement it at others?

Notice you didn't say Boston Latin wasn't the only successful school - i.e. with examples of others that are just as competitive and successful as it is now - but, instead, you asked whether its success, its success can be duplicated/replicated in other schools. Hmmm....

Now, that in and of itself says by default, that in the absence of such schools, schools competitive or the functional equivalent to Boston Latin that there is a net loss. The 42% Drop in Black Enrollment, though hardly precise, gives us a pretty good clue as to how much of a loss that is.

And your question was FRAUDULENT:
Are you suggesting that Boston Latin is the only school in the Boston public system that can provide Blacks with a quality education or credentials worthy of college admission?

Ummm.... The very thing you quoted from KEVIN said:
This huge drop in black enrollments at Boston Latin will do serious damage to the prospects of African-American students... to gain an education necessary for them to compete and be admitted to ***our nation's most selective colleges and universities.***

A mere "quality" education and the mere prospects of college admission/education was not at issue. Being admitted in OUR NATION'S MOST COMPETITIVE AND MOST SELECTIVE SCHOOLS was indeed what was at issue.

Once again you are the one MISSING THE POINT!

quote:
  • It is easy to see how one could think that elite colleges enhance their graduates' earnings. According to the College and Beyond Survey, data collected by the Mellon Foundation, the average student who entered a highly selective college like Yale, Swarthmore or the University of Pennsylvania in 1976, earned $92,000 in 1995. The average student from a moderately selective college, like Penn State, Denison or Tulane, earned $22,000 less.

  • More selective schools accept students with greater earnings potential, and students with greater earnings potential are more likely to apply to more selective schools.

  • One group of students, however, clearly benefited from attending a highly selective college: those from lower-income families... For them, attending a more selective school increased earnings significantly.

    http://www.irs.princeton.edu/krueger/04_27_2000.htm
  • These are all things that Stand To Reason. Out front and open, the assumption is a significant number of lower-income African-Americans are locked out of, steered away from opportunities that will maximize their potential.

    Now, unless you have stats to say that's not the case in Boston and that Boston Latin didn't produce such opportunities and Black students there didn't go on to earn significantly more than their counterparts in schools that merely offered "quality" education, if other ones did at all to any respectable degree, then you really have nothing to stand on.

    As always, your bias comes through with one little statement that goes beyond what you want to claim as your point in making the comment, inquiry or observation you made:
    Sometimes, the point being made... is lost in the battle to belittle, berate, and be right.

    Instead of just making an observation or asking a question about the facts/stats and the lack or the fullness thereof... you had to try to characterize what Kevin was doing in a way to belittle and berate the information he presented instead of just asking for clarification and leaving it at that.

    The Thread Topic is:
    Why blkCONS cannot logically justify their stance on issues

    Seems to me, as you say, there is not much to talk about. Kevin position is and always was one where the challenge is clear: Can B-Con's Justify Their Support For AA Bans When There Is Reason To Believe African-Americans Are Adversely Affected.

    Unfortunately for you and the most ardent B-Con's or whatever persuasion, Party-Liners or Those Who Like A Degree Of "Independence" From The Party-Line (but still hold to it on this issue)... the burden of proof is on you and them. Obviously, you can't stay on track enough (quality education vs. the most selective) to present even reasonable doubt much less probable cause...

    When you say the things you do... you are not hiding your bias. You might as well be upfront with it.
    Boston Latin High School is the most prestigious and selective of the public high schools in Boston.

    What is the criteria for entrance into this school? Academic credentials, namely grades and scores, correct? The school is very 'selective' means choosing those with highest scores, gpa's, etc.

    that 42% drop in Black Enrollment seems to be proof

    Proof indeed. It is just as logical to say that this drop in admissions is 'proof' that AA has been ineffective in helping to improve education levels in our community. If after 4 decades of AA, Blacks are still scoring nearer the bottom of the applicants, it would seem logical that AA is not helping to achieve the educational goals it set out to when instituted. We saw some of this in colleges as well.

    That is the primary argument I've heard from its opponents, after at least 3 generations now, that it hasn't produced satisfying results, and that we should be more open to finding things that actually may work to increase the scores, academic achievement, and therefore expand the opportunities available to those who succeed academically.

    -
    quote:
    Proof indeed. It is just as logical to say that this drop in admissions is 'proof' that AA has been ineffective in helping to improve education levels in our community.
    And that's a False Test, a False Dichotomy. AA has never been billed as a program to "educational levels in our community" particularly on the K-12 level.

    Now, where is the proof that AA was billed as a program with the aim to "set out to achieve" such educational goals on the K-12 level that you allude to?

    WHERE??

    Like I suggested and anticipated: Unrealistic Expectations. Claiming AA was suppose to improve the educational level in our community is a not even realistic, much less true of the stated aims of AA.

    But then again, you statement about FAR TOO MANY Success Stories slaps your BS in the face. If the 42% is "proof indeed" then dumbasses with WHITE RHETORIC when it comes to AA are proven to be against one thing that has indeed provided a measure of "success". And your motivation, as stated, in wanting to change is because White People are happy with AA.

    Shows where your interests lay.
    Why would or should anything that's "proof indeed" of success, even a little... why should that be eliminated from the equation in the absence of a better alternative, which again is not forthcoming from you, CF or whoever is inclined to regurgitate WHITE LOGIC?

    As the title suggest... you cannot logically justify the BS you espouse.

    Your question asking privileges have been REVOKED. Time to ante and answer up. Still waiting on a substantive position or an alternative from you when you choose to say ignorant shit like you have.

    "I know it causes resentment and division..."
    quote:
    Well, DD, that 42% drop in Black Enrollment seems to be proof, in and of itself - like it or not whether it says enough or not - that this particular vechile has been scaled down drastically. Drastically decreasing the chances. But it's funny how you don't examine the logic and arguments of those who hardly ever present stats or objective information in support of their positions.

    And, moreover, your very own comments make the Boston Latin example one where you too invest a degree of certitude into how much is lost with that 42% Drop in Black Enrollment there. Hmmmm...


    Right on point Nmaginate.

    JanesT can't accept that to remove the racial consideration in admissions would impact Black students and relegate them to the other lower quality schools and will allow Boston Latin to become lilly White as the White kids who have benefitted from the legacy of White racism of the past have this perpetuated in their lives today despite the fact that they were not born back then. This alone is justification for Affirmative Action admissions. Black students because of our current societal context simply can't be expected to be able to compete with these White students. To remove these programs would be to injure Black people. I can't understand why JanesT would apply his THEORY only to have the effects of snatching Black students out of a good, majority White school and relegate them to a majority Black school. This in and of itself is structural racism.

    We must always be mindful of conservatives like JanesT. They will always attempt to issolate Black people, having us congregated off on our own and then seek to cut funding to us so that we will fail. It happened during Jim Crow and it is alive today. We need to have Black kids and White kids going to school together. They wouldn't dare shortchange their own children's education so the fact that we are there as well means that Black people get lifted to the prevailing standard because overt racism is outlawed.

    This is the essence of Kevin's policies. We need to stay close to the White folks so they can't screw us as we are off on our own. I agree with you.
    Black people were victims of White Supremacy when we first were snatched from Africa and brought here and we continue to be VICTIMS today. The White man put us in this condition only the White man can repair us. The road to our repair run through the White man's hands.

    CF,
    You're going to make me send you a care package.......vitamins, gatorade, prayer cloth, etc. jeff
    quote:
    I can't understand why JanesT would apply his THEORY only to have the effects of snatching Black students out of a good, majority White school and relegate them to a majority Black school.
    All to make yourself look even sillier. You propose some still undisclosed - i.e. no clear plan - way of improving K-12 Black education on the premise that Black students will be "better" prepared to go to MAJORITY WHITE COLLEGES. I say that again because you've never presented an attended plan or even your patented shallow rhetoric about making Black Colleges capable of addressing most or all of the higher education needs of this new and improved K-12 preparation.

    So the joke is on you and you usual contradictions. But then again that's why you can't do anything but play games here. Hey, when you can't logically sustain the shit you say... I guess the best thing you can do is to try to mock your opponents position by doing all this sarcastic exaggerating shit. When all you got is RHETORIC, what else can you do?

    LOL

    Yes, you do need a care package because you're breaking up. You're in critical condition because nobody's giving your automatic preference points on GP.

    Oh the Tyranny Of The Majority!!! lol
    That is my signature tagline, not a commentary on Kevin or you (unless you believe the tagline describes your behavior). You create too much subtext to be offended and annoyed by - I told you I'll always be direct about what I have to say.

    I don't live in Boston - I don't think Kevin or you are there either, so none of us are extremely knowlegeable about public schools there. Without facts about the admissions process or qualifications of applying students, you are assuming a causal relationship between race being removed as a criteria and drop in minority admissions. Your gut feeling (and even mine) may be that without legal checks, racist admissions policies are back in place, but it is just a guess without the stats.

    I'm not a conservative or liberal - those designations belong to the talking heads that profit from the artificial divisions that arise from the titles. The major and independent parties have tracts that are appealing to me - I'm not a monolith, pledging myself to one party line, forever & ever, Amen.

    And Kevin makes the assertion, so actually the burden of proof is on him. Ultimately, his point was made with the first two paragraphs and the ending editorial weakened it because it was not supported (If it was, show me where it was supported in his post?).
    Last edited {1}
    quote:
    Your gut feeling (and even mine) may be that without legal checks, racist admissions policies are back in place, but it is just a guess without the stats.
    Ummm... that has absolutely NOTHING to do with what was said. NOTHING.

    Racist Admissions policies have nothing to do with the fact that there was a Drop in the admissions and, as such, a drop in the the chances for African-Americans students to take advantage of the opportunity such a school offered. I can't help it if you can't logically sustain the things you say.

    Whether we live in Boston or not, is immaterial. The FACT is Kevin said MOST COMPETITIVE, MOST SELECTIVE schools and you merely said some ambiguous "quality education" and some inane idea about merely having college worthy credentials. Just own up to your attempt to cloud the issue by missing the point.

    If you don't know anything about Boston and the schools there then you can't suggests that there are other schools there at the level of Boston Latin. Once again you're not presenting objectivity. You're trying to suggest something to discredit a certain point made when, admittedly, you don't have the facts to do so.

    Once again, you first suggested that other schools be formed with the Boston Latin curriculum. Then you switched to trying to suggest that there must be other schools where Black students can get a "quality education"... At no point was there ever a statement saying that Boston Latin could or should educate ALL Black Students. But that didn't keep you from saying some irrelevant stuff like that.

    Why is it so hard to just deal squarely with what is said? I could care less whether you're a Liberal or a Conservative. Your bias or you inability to deal earnestly with the subject is clear. Don't matter where you fall. Your bias is still clear. Or rather the fact that you can hear clear cyber-English typed on this page as you tried to trip because Kevin not only presents facts/stats he feels are relevant to his point but also does something you take issue with - in your words, "berate, belittle, etc." The function of you saying that is a definite bias when you don't apply that standard across the board. And you simply haven't. Whether you want to lie to yourself about that or not, I don't care. But I, for one, will not be party to your own self delusions, etc.

    And, once again, notice you don't criticize CF & Co. for a lack of facts/stats. You most certainly didn't critique Bill Cosby on that basis. So please try that stuff elsewhere.

    quote:
    And Kevin makes the assertion, so actually the burden of proof is on him.
    Dude, you don't have information to suspect that what Kevin said is not true. His assertion was supported by what he said. The Drop In Black Enrollment at Boston Latin substantiated what he said. Boston Latin being the school that it was that was a vehicle to the most prestigous colleges. What stats do you feel are needed?

    Really... if you actually had a point you would be able to better specify what is missing. To the contrary, all you have said after that is a mix of contradictory stuff that you can't even begin to present in a manner that makes sense. So Kevin has to prove what?

    Again, you have no information to the contrary so the basis of your suspicions, the reason for you need for proof is what?

    You admit that you are ignorant of Boston but your whole point is to try to suggest that there is some possibility that Kevin made a statement that may not be true. Your basis?

    Dude, the fact that Boston Latin changed its policies is evidence enough of the "serious damage"... again, especially when you said:
    Wouldn't it be useful to cull what is so successful at this school & begin to implement it at others?

    You were implying that OTHER SCHOOLS did not have the same successful program as Boston Latin. Given that... what is your basis for wanting proof of something you already conceded?

    Find a position and learn how to stick to it and articulate it in an honest, forthright manner. It's not that hard.

    But, no... skip the silly stuff... RECONCILE that statement of yours ("wouldn't it be useful...") with this fake attempt to act like there is some great need for proof about the options in the Boston School System.

    I mean, once again, your notions didn't match what Kevin said. Again, you said mere "quality education" or mere "college worthy" credentials when Kevin explictly stated Boston Latin was a vechile for the MOST... the MOST selective colleges.

    Perhaps when you're able to actually show you're on the same subject then your points can be addressed. But it seems you're either purposely trying to confuse the issue or just mistakenly conflating things you have no logical reason to.
    DD,

    You could do the research yourself, especially when you're going to try to call something someone else said on such a subject into question...

    quote:
    The decline in minority enrollment is fueling concern that the Boston Public Schools are not doing enough to recruit the system's largest groups of students to Latin School, one of its three selective exam high schools

    ...The school system, with a limited budget, is still trying to prepare and recruit students to the Latin School and the other two exam schools,where minority enrollments are significantly higher and have held steady since the November 1998 court ruling. Black and Hispanic students make up about 60 percent of the enrollment at O'Bryant School of Mathematics and Science and nearly 40 percent of Boston Latin Academy.

    ...The Latin School is the largest of the three...

    ...The schools' recruiting budget for the three exam schools has been slashed. (From 430K to 50K...)

    Payzant said the city is focusing on improving all schools and giving students other options...

    But parents and alumni say the Latin School is clearly the city's premier school, preparing students for top-notch colleges and grooming future leaders.

    http://www.boston.com/news/education/k_12/articles/2005...ers_plunge_at_latin/
    Make sure you click on pages 1 and 2 sir. Now tell me what's the basis of your questioning?

    Notice the number of minorities held "steady" at the other two of the three most heralded schools (apparently from the article)... Boston Latin being the top one. So where did the Dropped Students go? Somewhere along the lines those kids, that number of them, are locked out of those opportunities. PERIOD.

    If those that would have previously been selected to attend Boston Latin then took slots at the other two top exam schools then somewhere along the line they displaced other students who would have previously been in those two schools. So there is a net loss. Why it would take all of this to establish this bpoint I don't know. But I do know it has something to do with your bias. Your incredulity and bias.
    It wasn't "all of that" - it was just the factual support that should have been provided in the first place.

    I've questioned CF - check the threads over the last 2 weeks. Sometimes people post things so silly to me, I don't feel compelled to do anything but laugh (and that's stuff from all factions here). Once I ask my questions or make my point, I don't feel compelled to belabor the point - I'm not a fan of the pile on, bandwagon tactics I see here on occasion. I will never follow someone I disagree with from thread to thread, deluging them with insults.

    You're playing a semantic game and misrepresenting what I said - again stop trying to read more into my posts. I don't have to find "a position". If that's your approach, good for you. I believe that education should be targeted in a multi-pronged manor:
    1) Monitor admission policies of educational institutions & issues sanctions for unfair admissions practices.

    2) Restore the value & importance of education in the Black community. Too often education is viewed as "acting white". The goal in our culture should be that everyone obtain a college and/or trade school degree.

    3)Monitor public schools for sucessful programming. Use these techniques to improve underperforming schools.
    Last edited {1}
    quote:
    You're playing a semantic game and misrepresenting what I said...
    Funny but that's exactly what I keep illustrating in terms of what you did in trying to question what Kevin presented.

    Again, "quality education" and "college worthy" vs. MOST SELECTIVE college prep. Your multi-pronged manner is irrelevant here.

    What did I misrepresent from what you said?
    You still have a bias and a position. The things you listed in your multi-pronged manner speaks to that. Your unfounded questioning of Kevin speaks to that.

    You ASSUMED I was trying to label you as a Liberal and, most likely, as a Conservative. Whatever you are, you still have a position. Why you like to play semantical games and try to act like you're objective when you're not is beyond me.

    Nothing in Kevin's positions says that he is not a proponent of the things you listed. But since he didn't or doesn't articulate things the way you want him or rather the way you do then you ASSUME things you obviously have no basis for. Hence you tagline...

    The truth is... THE POINT is only lost on those who don't want to see the point. I'm trying to see yours but you can't keep yours straight.

    As for things you say and me "reading into them"... You're not providing any evidence that I have. You're just making an assertion. But beyond that, nothing you or anyone says gets a pass and, no, I won't take things you say at face value when its clear what I have said about what you said is significant. You can call it semantics all you want but that too is an unsubstantiated assertion. It's made all the more clear that what you say is nothing but a mere assertion given you multi-pronged manner...

    That is unless you're claiming I've played semantical games on something different. But since you haven't specified, I'm sure I'm correct in saying you've merely made an empty assertion and, no doubt, presented your multi-pronged idea because you would rather not support your claims. Just make them.
    quote:
    It wasn't "all of that" - it was just the factual support that should have been provided in the first place.
    What part of this don't you understand?

    Really... if you actually had a point you would be able to better specify what is missing. To the contrary, all you have said after that is a mix of contradictory stuff that you can't even begin to present in a manner that makes sense. So Kevin has to prove what?

    Factual information that will tell us what, DD?
    Factual information that will support exactly what part of what Kevin said that you feel is problematic? The Causal Relationship you listed about "racism" doesn't seem to be the point so, once again, it seems you are missing the point. Obviously, you were working under a flawed premise and, as such, you're wanting proof for something that was not contended or suggested.

    This is and has always been the crux of Kevin's point:
    "Why is it that black conservatives work in conjunction with the racist right to limit the college and professional opportunities..."

    That emphasis on why B-Con's would support things that would LIMIT OPPORTUNITES is a far cry from that gut-feeling about "racist" policies BS you listed as your reasoning for wanting proof. Again, you were not on point. That would classify as a "silly" posting because that has hardly ever been the point.

    I mean, damn... KEVIN repeats that shit almost verbatim probably ten times a day when posting (in opposition to CF, etc.) and there is absolutely no way anyone looking at his position objectively to question or demand stats, etc. to justify whether there is "racism" at heart or the function of the policy when the clearest things in his own words is the LIMIT ON OPPORTUNITIES.

    Further, the very statement of his you called yourself taking issue with made no allusion to racism but it did say something clearly about the LIMITS ON OPPORTUNITIES. Opportunities that are lost, a net loss, which I've demonstrated with only cursory amount of research.

    So, once more, your reaching in all directions betray any objectivity you can dare claim much less any serious well founded reason to question what has been said. By the looks of it, you don't even know what you're questioning and you're, again, wanting proof for something that has not been suggested.

    This huge drop in black enrollments at Boston Latin will do serious damage to the prospects of African-American students... to gain an education necessary for them to compete and be admitted to ***our nation's most selective colleges and universities.***
    ............... vs. ................
    ...You are assuming a causal relationship between race being removed as a criteria and drop in minority admissions. Your gut feeling (and even mine) may be that without legal checks, racist admissions policies are back in place, but it is just a guess without the stats.

    BTW, the only relevant fact about the admissions policies is the FACT that AA was repealed. The extent to which B-Con's et al supported such a repeal is the thing that's at issue here. The other stuff is not relevant to what Kevin said. Note: There is no part of Kevin's questioned statement calling/claiming the policy is "racist"... Please point that clause out. Obviously you can't. So what was "all of that" stuff you were talking about? Causal Relationships? Gut Feelings (I guess you can just ASSUME mine)? Racist Admissions Policies "back in place"??

    Where are you getting all this BS from?
    The Burden Of Having A Basis For The Stuff You Say is on... you.

    We do know from the history, by virtue of the 42% drop in Black enrollment, that that many more Black students had the OPPORTUNITY to go to that school which has some serious material impact on their life chances and life earnings particularly if they come from a low income background (the info. I listed before).

    So, nowhere in this thread was there a position trying to establish that the policy was "racist" per se. The position was that there are fewer OPPORTUNITIES now that the AA ban has been enacted. Obviously, you don't have an argument against that and you wanted proof of something that was not at issue.

    Yet another time you couldn't get your stuff straight.
    Last edited {1}
    quote:
    Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:
    quote:
    I am not the one working to dismantle something that worked effectively for 30+ years, why don't you ask those who work to do so why they did not come up with a better alternative themselves?



    You are correct Kevin. If the White man has a problem with the Affirmative Action program in which a few Black kids are allowed to attend school beside his white kids then he needs to come up with an alternative plan because Black people need to go to school also. I feel you man.

    Affirmative Action is an important public policy milestone that capped off centuries of racial oppression. They owe us an alternative if they don't like AA.


    **bY the way...sarcasm on the part of men can either be a) a bitch trait or b) a substitute for the aptitude on the topic that is not there....
    quote:
    And Kevin makes the assertion, so actually the burden of proof is on him. Ultimately, his point was made with the first two paragraphs and the ending editorial weakened it because it was not supported (If it was, show me where it was supported in his post?).


    I posted an article from an academic journal, Journal of Blacks in Higher Education....go to jbhe.com and you can contact their editors and researchers to tell you anything you would like to know.............
    quote:

    **bY the way...sarcasm on the part of men can either be a) a bitch trait or b) a substitute for the aptitude on the topic that is not there....


    This is not sarcasm. This is fundemental change on my part after coming in to connection with the real state of so many Black people that was shown into my home from the situation in New Orleans. I was wrong in the past and I ask for your forgiveness.

    Take a look at the other message thread about how the policies that you supported and I had been opposed to have allowed Black people to attend Berkeley. Once my former comrades got the race based admissions tossed, the Blacks were purged from Berkeley, just as YOU said Kevin. I was wrong and I ask for your forgiveness.

    Now these Blacks are limited to their second and third choices such as Morehouse, Spelman and Howard.

    I have in fact done a lot of introspection these past few weeks.

    I will never again impose a policy that is injurious to Black people in the short run.
    quote:
    1) Monitor admission policies of educational institutions & issues sanctions for unfair admissions practices.

    2) Restore the value & importance of education in the Black community. Too often education is viewed as "acting white". The goal in our culture should be that everyone obtain a college and/or trade school degree.

    3)Monitor public schools for sucessful programming. Use these techniques to improve underperforming schools.


    DD:

    You miss the fundemental issue of the debate. It is the lack of resources being provided to Black people coupled with tests that are culturally biased against Black people succeed that allow those in power to extend their power to forthcoming generations.

    This America society is based on the unequal distribution of resources. If you are White you get what you need. If you are dark you get stranded at the Super Dome, left to fend for yourself.

    Your plan is not accurate because you have Blacks to compete head to head with White folks in college when these Whites have long been able to leverage their current position of wealth.

    It sounds like you are blaming Black people for our performance in the SAT rather than the system that is carrying out it's plans successfully.

    The sysem doesn't want us in Berkeley where the latest advances in human knowledge are taking place. Just as there is bans on having the Chinese to gain access to highly technical components there is also a system to keep Blacks from gaining hold of the knowledge that would later be used to upset the White power system. The system is performing as it was intended to.

    Blacks in jail and resentful, Whites in college thinking that they have earned everything that they have gotten in life.

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