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I would like all those(especially X-tians) who are comfortable with Santa, X-mas trees, the Easter Bunny ect. to really analyze and comment on why they are comfortable with the inundation of pre-X-tian European symbols and practices(These things are NOT secular) yet are petrified of all things that are pre-X-tian and African.(In particular West African...I notice a lot of us are comfy with Nile Valley symbolism, yet shun Voudun/Yoruba symbolism/practices/beliefs ect. IMO this is largely because of the Biblical/historical ties)

I have my own thoughts on the subject, but I would like to see what those who actually do this are thinking.
Egungun, Egungun ni t'aiye ati jo! Ancestos, Ancestors come to earth and dance! "I'm sick of the war and the civilization that created it. Let's look to our dreams, and the magical; to the creations of the so-called primitive peoples for new inspirations." - Jaques Vache and Andre Breton "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." -John Maynard "You know that in our country there were even matriarchal societies where women were the most important element. On the Bijagos islands they had queens. They were not queens because they were the daughters of kings. They had queens succeeding queens. The religious leaders were women too..." -- Amilcar Cabral, Return to the Source, 1973
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Hey!! Maybe we can get Jessie Lee Peterson to speak on this topic since he has a hard-on for/against Kwanzaa! Smile

Can you imagine that BOND brother going up to his White audience talking about how Santa and Christmas with Trees & Reindeer are all "made up" making sure to track any unsavory behavior of any person influential in making Christmas a holiday with the symbols used?

Do you think he uses the King James version of the Bible? I mean, he is a Reverend, you know... Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
I would like all those(especially X-tians) who are comfortable with Santa, X-mas trees, the Easter Bunny ect. to really analyze and comment on why they are comfortable with the inundation of pre-X-tian European symbols and practices(These things are NOT secular) yet are petrified of all things that are pre-X-tian and African.(In particular West African...I notice a lot of us are comfy with Nile Valley symbolism, yet shun Voudun/Yoruba symbolism/practices/beliefs ect. IMO this is largely because of the Biblical/historical ties)

I have my own thoughts on the subject, but I would like to see what those who actually do this are thinking.

I can't speak to the first part, cause I ain't that kind of Xian Wink.

I am more fascinated, however, in your second observation. Why is there all this obsession with Egypt or some primordial/archaic black presence in China, Central America, or Scotland Roll Eyes . As you note, most of us can trace our ancestory to West Africa. For me, that is a more credible location for investigation as to what it means to be African and American, or to use Paul Gilroy's heuristic of diaspora, members of the Black Atlantic.
The West African Kings (Mali and Songhai empires) are the ones who sold their enemies as slaves to America. Their religion was mainly Islam. The people they sold....worshiped the God in Heaven. Yep, you're a descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel.

So, its not for us (Blacks born in America) to do the rituals of West Africa because we didn't do them when we lived there. And I AGREE that Christianity has adopted several pagan rituals, which is one of the reasons this country is starting to decline morally.
quote:
Originally posted by DivineJoy:
So, its not for us (Blacks born in America) to do the rituals of West Africa because we didn't do them when we lived there. And I AGREE that Christianity has adopted several pagan rituals, which is one of the reasons this country is starting to decline morally.


You believe that Pagainism is the reason of "moral decline"?

How has this country "morally declined"? Was there a time when it was better?
quote:
Originally posted by DivineJoy:
The West African Kings (Mali and Songhai empires) are the ones who sold their enemies as slaves to America. Their religion was mainly Islam. The people they sold....worshiped the God in Heaven. Yep, you're a descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel.

May I ask, what empirical data (historical, anthropological, or archaeological) you have to substantiate such a claim? To my knowledge, the scholarship simply does not support such a claim, whether we are talking about the research of Albert Raboteau, John Blassingame, Yvonne Chireau, Riggins Earl, or the older work of Mays, Du Bois, Herskovits, Frazier, et al.
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
You believe that Pagainism is the reason of "moral decline"?

How has this country "morally declined"? Was there a time when it was better?


Individuals make a country. Individuals in this country have changed morally over the years because less emphasis is given toward pleasing God, and more on pleasure. Lying, homosexuality, rape, theft, murder, etc.

Although this things existed in the past, they are more commonplace now.
quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
quote:
Originally posted by DivineJoy:
The West African Kings (Mali and Songhai empires) are the ones who sold their enemies as slaves to America. Their religion was mainly Islam. The people they sold....worshiped the God in Heaven. Yep, you're a descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel.

May I ask, what empirical data (historical, anthropological, or archaeological) you have to substantiate such a claim? To my knowledge, the scholarship simply does not support such a claim, whether we are talking about the research of Albert Raboteau, John Blassingame, Yvonne Chireau, Riggins Earl, or the older work of Mays, Du Bois, Herskovits, Frazier, et al.


I believe you have asked me this question before. There are documentaries out about West Africans asking for forgiveness because they feel the slave trade by their forefathers is the reason for all the woes of Africa.

Both were by NOVA.
quote:
Originally posted by DivineJoy:
quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
quote:
Originally posted by DivineJoy:
The West African Kings (Mali and Songhai empires) are the ones who sold their enemies as slaves to America. Their religion was mainly Islam. The people they sold....worshiped the God in Heaven. Yep, you're a descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel.

May I ask, what empirical data (historical, anthropological, or archaeological) you have to substantiate such a claim? To my knowledge, the scholarship simply does not support such a claim, whether we are talking about the research of Albert Raboteau, John Blassingame, Yvonne Chireau, Riggins Earl, or the older work of Mays, Du Bois, Herskovits, Frazier, et al.


I believe you have asked me this question before. There are documentaries out about West Africans asking for forgiveness because they feel the slave trade by their forefathers is the reason for all the woes of Africa.

Both were by NOVA.

There may be people who believe this, or who try to make some kind of causal connection between such events. That does not make it true. More importantly, I seriously doubt there is a claim that the enslaved where members of the 12 tribes of Israel. That is what I find at the very least problematic about your assertion. If you have citations to respected scholarship that substantiates such a claim, I would be more than welcome to amend my opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by DivineJoy:
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
You believe that Pagainism is the reason of "moral decline"?

How has this country "morally declined"? Was there a time when it was better?


Individuals make a country. Individuals in this country have changed morally over the years because less emphasis is given toward pleasing God, and more on pleasure. Lying, homosexuality, rape, theft, murder, etc.

Although this things existed in the past, they are more commonplace now.


I would disagree, nothing has changed. You just have more access to hearing about these kinds of things now. In the past, these kinds of things were kept on DL when they happened because of shame culture in more Puritanical society.

Now, they are aired out into the open for everyone to see.

The 1950's were no more moral than now, Christian men and women had no problem hanging their Black Christian brethren and sisters. They had no problem promoting nuking non-White countries and had no problem killing Communists for God and Country.

People's minds were never on "pleasing God", they were MONEY. Money has always been America's God.

I can't believe that you, as an African-American, think that people were more "moral" in the past considering how terrible the past has been for us. Christians commit sin just like everyone else, many of these people doing bad things now are Christians.


And yes, I know the whole "Oh, but 'true Christians' don't to this and that" argument, but if that is so, then you could say every Christian is not really a Christian because all Christians do something messed in their lifetime, and continue to do so.

As Jesus said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
quote:
Originally posted by DivineJoy:
The West African Kings (Mali and Songhai empires) are the ones who sold their enemies as slaves to America. Their religion was mainly Islam. The people they sold....worshiped the God in Heaven. Yep, you're a descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel.

So, its not for us (Blacks born in America) to do the rituals of West Africa because we didn't do them when we lived there. And I AGREE that Christianity has adopted several pagan rituals, which is one of the reasons this country is starting to decline morally.


I usually avoid this kind of thing but this is so completely misinformed I had to write something. I am really tired of folks speaking of xtianity,whose text most of them do not understand, speaking or writing of rituals about which they understand even less.

The 12 tribes of "is it real" have no african relevance at all. Before you speak on our rituals at least study something about what you profess beyond "pastor preached it in church on sunday". Before there was an abraham or a jacob, before there was a muhammad, before buddah was even thought about, YOUR ancestors already had a religious science so deep that modern scholarship is still unable to fanthom it's mysteries, it's buildings and it's monuments.

It is beyond my understanding why those with the slave mind still see xtianity as orthodox and Ifa or Vodou as "pagan". But those who have made study of the history of the canon know of it's "pagan" influences. Perhaps a proper exegesis of romans 12:1-4 would give you some light on this subject.

It is true that some africans sold other africans into slavery. It is also true that some african-americans owned slaves. We are killing each other over power and money all over the world, what's the solution the koran, the bible? Please!
quote:
Originally posted by DivineJoy:
quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
There may be people who believe this, or who try to make some kind of causal connection between such events. That does not make it true.


The Africans themselves are on the tape. Not someone else talking about it. Geesh!


White guys (America) stealing from a store (oil)...
Blaming the owners (Middle East), and make them out to look like terrorists.
Black people (innocent bystanders, riding with the white guys) on the sideline watching, saying "He doesn't have a gun".
Cheered by the crowd outside, misinformed to what happened, screaming "USA! USA!"

Also, the part of the Black man fearing anal sex all his life, being tricked by the police to confess a crime he didn't commit. Showing this man being law abiding and still getting railroaded in the system.

Aaron is speaking volumes.

Look familiar?
quote:
Originally posted by Fagunwa:
Look familiar?


No. There is NO simiiarity to this post and the Boondocks show AT ALL.

On this tape by NOVA (look it up), there are Africans asking for forgiveness. The BLACK PROFESSOR who took the trip was taken by surprise. It was totally unexpected. West Africans feel God has punished Africa for selling their brothers as slaves.
quote:
Originally posted by Fagunwa:
quote:
Originally posted by DivineJoy:
The West African Kings (Mali and Songhai empires) are the ones who sold their enemies as slaves to America. Their religion was mainly Islam. The people they sold....worshiped the God in Heaven. Yep, you're a descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel.

So, its not for us (Blacks born in America) to do the rituals of West Africa because we didn't do them when we lived there. And I AGREE that Christianity has adopted several pagan rituals, which is one of the reasons this country is starting to decline morally.


I usually avoid this kind of thing but this is so completely misinformed I had to write something. I am really tired of folks speaking of xtianity,whose text most of them do not understand, speaking or writing of rituals about which they understand even less.

The 12 tribes of "is it real" have no african relevance at all. Before you speak on our rituals at least study something about what you profess beyond "pastor preached it in church on sunday". Before there was an abraham or a jacob, before there was a muhammad, before buddah was even thought about, YOUR ancestors already had a religious science so deep that modern scholarship is still unable to fanthom it's mysteries, it's buildings and it's monuments.

It is beyond my understanding why those with the slave mind still see xtianity as orthodox and Ifa or Vodou as "pagan". But those who have made study of the history of the canon know of it's "pagan" influences. Perhaps a proper exegesis of romans 12:1-4 would give you some light on this subject.

It is true that some africans sold other africans into slavery. It is also true that some african-americans owned slaves. We are killing each other over power and money all over the world, what's the solution the koran, the bible? Please!


I agree. There is no such thing as a "non-Pagan" religion, all religions spawned from the religions before it. The 3 so-called monotheistic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam came from the "pagan" polytheist religions before it, and retained much of the polytheist/animist stories and myths.

There is no such thing as an "orthodox" religion. And what's more, I don't see where Judaism, Christianity and Islam, three outsider Middle Eastern religions, get off calling the native religions of Africa "pagan". Some nerve.
I always find it ironic that a people can and will embrace the faith of thier oppressors so wholeheartedly. Jesus was'nt a christian, would'nt know a christian if you hit him with neon sign. He was a hebrew rabbi telling his people to get back on the path of thier ancestors (ie...the old testement). Africans brought over to this country, had to learn the bible to learn the english language, not to mention being forcfully converted as time went on during slavery. I get asked all the time, do I follow the laws of the old or new testement? I go with the old. Lets say that Jesus (and did'nt the angel tell Mary and Joseph to name him EMMANUEL??? Where did "Jesus" come from?) was the "son" of the almighty. There is no way I'm going to follow the son over THE FATHER. The Almighty said his words will never change and he meant it. The christian faith has a good racket going I'll give them that much.
quote:
Originally posted by DivineJoy:
quote:
Originally posted by Fagunwa:
Look familiar?


No. There is NO simiiarity to this post and the Boondocks show AT ALL.

On this tape by NOVA (look it up), there are Africans asking for forgiveness. The BLACK PROFESSOR who took the trip was taken by surprise. It was totally unexpected. West Africans feel God has punished Africa for selling their brothers as slaves.


I guess that's all you could address from my posts and even that's misunderstood. You have displayed all that you know and I'll leave it there because for me to continue would be bullying. But I will ask one question, was the 400 year enslavement and brainwashing of africans in the diaspora and at home the punishment of your god too,is the continued abuse of africans the world over gods punishment?
quote:
Originally posted by xxGAMBITxx:
I always find it ironic that a people can and will embrace the faith of thier oppressors so wholeheartedly. Jesus was'nt a christian, would'nt know a christian if you hit him with neon sign. He was a hebrew rabbi telling his people to get back on the path of thier ancestors (ie...the old testement). Africans brought over to this country, had to learn the bible to learn the english language, not to mention being forcfully converted as time went on during slavery. I get asked all the time, do I follow the laws of the old or new testement? I go with the old. Lets say that Jesus (and did'nt the angel tell Mary and Joseph to name him EMMANUEL??? Where did "Jesus" come from?) was the "son" of the almighty. There is no way I'm going to follow the son over THE FATHER. The Almighty said his words will never change and he meant it. The christian faith has a good racket going I'll give them that much.


Brother G is that your daughter? She is a star!
quote:
Originally posted by Fagunwa:
quote:
Originally posted by xxGAMBITxx:
I always find it ironic that a people can and will embrace the faith of thier oppressors so wholeheartedly. Jesus was'nt a christian, would'nt know a christian if you hit him with neon sign. He was a hebrew rabbi telling his people to get back on the path of thier ancestors (ie...the old testement). Africans brought over to this country, had to learn the bible to learn the english language, not to mention being forcfully converted as time went on during slavery. I get asked all the time, do I follow the laws of the old or new testement? I go with the old. Lets say that Jesus (and did'nt the angel tell Mary and Joseph to name him EMMANUEL??? Where did "Jesus" come from?) was the "son" of the almighty. There is no way I'm going to follow the son over THE FATHER. The Almighty said his words will never change and he meant it. The christian faith has a good racket going I'll give them that much.


Brother G is that your daughter? She is a star!


Thanks. Yeah thats my little smurfette. cabbage

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