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As someone has already mentioned, there are plenty of people who have successfully completed graduate studies with the assistance of their spouse, which has only helped them to reach their goals in less time. I'm suggesting that we move away from an individualistic, "I Need To Do It Alone" frame of mind. Its unfortunate that this culture encourages us to be selfish with our time and companionship. --Rowe


That was Ricardomath that mentioned being married and pursuing graduate or post-graduate endeavors. I know of plenty married couples that have either pursued their educational endeavors simultaneously or taken turns--the husband pursues his education first while the wife takes care of the homestead or vice versa. However, this is only successful when two peopla are generally at the same level of achievement or if they are in similar fields.

I also know of many marriages that were not successful primarily because the added stress of graduate or post-graduate school while maintaining a marriage and a family could not be effectively balanced--hell, some people just don't have the capacity to multi-task on that level regardless of their level of intelligence.

Hey, I may be a hopeless romantic but I'm also realistic. In this day and age, love does not conquer all.
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Originally posted by IRONHORSE:
Going to gradschool full-time and maintaining a full-time career is enough in itself, and trying to maintain a relationship with someone that doesn't understand what you're going through adds that much more stress and strain--mariage, a wife and kids would be out of the damn question.


I have a question for you then. Do you think that once you've reached these goals and subsequently marry that you will never be stressed again??? This is simply not how life works. Few people have the opportunity to devote their full attention toward ONE task at a time. As difficult as this might be for you to accept, there will be times when life will require you to spread yourself among two or more activities and/or goals. If and when you encounter a woman whose unlike any other woman you've ever met and you subsequently realize that she would make the perfect mother and wife for you, there is no doubt in my mind, like everyone else, you will do what is necessary to make it through life.
quote:
Originally posted by IRONHORSE:
I know of plenty married couples that have either pursued their educational endeavors simultaneously or taken turns--the husband pursues his education first while the wife takes care of the homestead or vice versa. achievement or if they are in similar fields.


I can agree with this. You're absolutely right, marriage is a partnership! I don't wish to push marriage on anyone, I simply wanted to emphasize that sometimes we have no control over our future. Often times, opportunity and chance determines our future, not our preset goals.
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First let me say, that you have a way of side stepping the issue.....when you are either pissed off at a person, or you need to 'feel better' about what you are hearing/reading.--qty


Oh please stop patronizing me, qty. Not only do you side-step many queries directed at you, you completely ignore any queries or statements that may require that you answer them from the heart. I've told you before, and I'll tell you again--you are emotionally inaccessible, evasive and elusive.

This statement is also just more of your patronizing, damsel in distress garbage:

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The comments you made about me being 22, finishing college, law school, and passing the bar......means what? That i shouldnt have a decent man in my life........one who is accomplished, one who has done well, because of the choices that hes made? Gimmie a break!! --qty


Why don't you give ME a fucking break? Tell me one time where you've officially been in a committed, monogamous, sincere, honest, comprimising, well-balanced relationship while you were in college. As far as what you've been telling me all this time, all you do is walk away, 'move on' and stay 'leary' of black men.

Yes, I've been in grad school full-time, maintained a 3.9GPA, worked professionally full-time and maintained a monogamous, constructive, fulfilling relationship more than once--have you? I've never been like you, qty--ducking and dodging potential relationships at the slightest hint of the mere possibility of some conflict but you'll say with vigor you don't have time for that.

Well, what the hell will you ever have time for if you don't have time for drama? You have to be realistic--I don't care at what point in your life you are with your educational or professional endeavors, there will always be some kind of drama or conflict when you're involved with someone--it's just a matter of how you deal with the conflict that is important. Starting and maintaining a relationship with someone is not like putting a Lego set together or taking a dress back that doesn't fit. You kill me with all this leeway you want to make every mistake in the book--even repeat some of the mistakes you've already made and blame it on your youth and inexperience, yet if a man doesn't walk a tight rope for you then it's time for you to move on.

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But its ok, for you to tell a 22 year old, that YOU are not ready for marriage, because you are not financially sound, and youre still in school?.........and wait you are how old 35? --qty


Now you're just trying to be a smart ass, qty. You know damn well I'm 33, first of all, and secondly, you're the one that looks suspect for wanting to know why men in their 30's are waiting later to get married, and how old are you? 20? What the hell are you concerned what men in their 30's are doing? You should be worried about boys your age that are at the same level in their lives as you are.

Thirdly, you are no way in the kind of position I am in. I'm finished with my masters degree and I'm already working professionally in my second career for the last 12 years of my life. Not only am I financially sound, I could get married right now if I wanted but I choose not to for the time being. Why? Because, first of all, I'm not in love. Secondly, I'm not in the pursuit of finding love.

At this time in my life, I'm in a position to make a move in any direction I choose--I'm in a position to make the necessary decisions to begin the rest of my life. You, qty, haven't even started law school yet. You don't have a job, you still live at home with your parents yet you talk like you're ready for marriage with a grown ass, accomplished man. You can't even handle being a full-time student without having lapses in memory, throwing mood swings, looking for sympathy, and being delusional.

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Lets get off of my personal life, because i have no intention of paying you any mind. --qty


No, let's not get off of your personal life since the reason why you ask all of these naive, moot questions stems from your lack of experience and youth.
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I have a question for you then. Do you think that once you've reached these goals and subsequently marry that you will never be stressed again???--Rowe


It's not about avoiding stress, Rowe, it's about not adding more stress to what is already a potentially stressful situation. I expect marriage to be everything marriage is supposed to be--full of good times and bad times, ups and downs--preferrably more ups than downs, nevertheless, why add more obstacles to the situation when those obstacles could be eliminated or at least lessened before hand?

That's just like when some women make the ignorant statement: "I want a man that is a challenge." Why would a woman want a man that would make the relationship that much harder to maintain? The challenge shouldn't be how much drama one can put up with while being involved with someone. The real challenge is to see how long you can stay in love with someone and if you can keep that flame burning.
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If and when you encounter a woman whose unlike any other woman you've ever met and you subsequently realize that she would make the perfect mother and wife for you, there is no doubt in my mind, like everyone else, you will do what is necessary to make it through life.--Rowe


You made that statment to me, Rowe, as if you were talking to qty. You should get to know me a little better before you make statements like that. I'm one for achieving things that qty would consider to be a waste of time and give her reason to 'move on'.

I've been in the situation more than once of feeling that a woman I was involved with in my past could have been a potential wife. I've never hesitated in following my heart at any point of my romantic interactions in life. I only avoid women that I know instinctively would not be a good match, nevertheless, I'm not perfect.

Never at any point in my life, other than my senior year as an undergrad (because I had 18 hours one sememster and 22 hours the second semester) did I run away from romance. Did I make mistakes? Yes! Did I learn from my mistakes? Yes! This is why at this stage I plan my life as carefully as possible. I don't run around making bold statements and snap judgements on something I know nothing about.

If I make a comment in regards to romance and relationships you can bet I have had enough experiences in my past to make qualified opinions, statements and advice on the matter. I have accomplished and experienced quite a bit in my life, Rowe. As many times as I've smiled in the face of adversity there are very few things that I have difficulty accepting.
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Originally posted by IRONHORSE:
That's just like when some women make the ignorant statement: "I want a man that is a challenge." Why would a woman want a man that would make the relationship that much harder to maintain?


Women who communicate a desire for "challenge" in a relationship could be expressing their interest in a relationship that is intellectually challenging rather than a relationship that is combative and confrontational. We often hear women complaining that their husbands/boyfriends do not communicate, at least in ways that are stimulating and engaging to them. Therefore, when a women says that she seeks "challenge" in a relationship, what she really means is that she desires a relationship that is engaging, more specifically, a relationship that is both mentally and physically satisfying. They don't mean that they wish to squabble over trivial matters and/or stir up strife between herself and her partner. That would defeat the whole purpose of being in a relationship.
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Originally posted by Rowe:

.....Women who communicate a desire for "challenge" in a relationship could be expressing their interest in a relationship that is intellectually challenging rather than a relationship that is combative and confrontational. We often hear women complaining that their husbands/boyfriends do not communicate, at least in ways that are stimulating and engaging to them...... They don't mean that they wish to squabble over trivial matters and/or stir up strife between herself and her partner. That would defeat the whole purpose of being in a relationship.


Really Rowe, I must have missed that point in my life because with a few exceptions, the very sistas who told me that they are looking for a mental challenge usually ended squalling over the very trivial matters they reportedly wanted to avoid in the first place. Never understood it....someone please help me!

felix
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Really Rowe, I must have missed that point in my life because with a few exceptions, the very sistas who told me that they are looking for a mental challenge usually ended squalling over the very trivial matters they reportedly wanted to avoid in the first place. Never understood it....someone please help me! --Felix


You don't need no stinking help, Felix! Rowe just bumped her head on the corner of the door on her way back into AA.org to post her response to my statement.

As a matter of fact, every single female I've witnessed saying they need a "challenge" were complaining about men that were actually a mental or romantic challenge, and were actually referring to simple-minded, emotionally, socially, and romantically inept males or "thugs" when they were talking about needing a challenge.

The sentence that usually follows needing a challenge, when women refer to who they are dating now or a man that they have already dumped, say: "Yeah, [insert poor sucker's name here] was a great guy but he was too nice."

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't it be easier to teach a "nice guy" how to be more assertive or interesting rather than trying to butt heads with a "thug" or a "player" that will fight you kicking and screaming all the way while you try to make a nicer guy out of him?

This leads to the opposite extreme--you hear women that have been dogged out by thugs and players say: "I just wish he would be nicer/take me out more often/not hang out with his boys so much/stop looking at other women/help around the house with the kids, and on and on and on.

Many of the things these dazed and confused women complain about thugs and players not doing are things that the nice guy will do but the nice guy won't verbally and or physically abuse and neglect these women or play mind games with them to keep their confused mental state of mind entertained.

I try to stay as far away from females, not women but females, like the ones mentioned above as possible. Some tell, tell signs that you're with a female like this is when she makes statements like these:

1. My ex used to beat me down/cuss me out then hang with his boys/ never help me with my kid/was a lying bastard/always get caught in a lie.


2. That car with the 24 inch chrome wheels and the Jolly Rancher green, day glow paint job looks just like my ex's car!

3. My ex left these 15 inch Alpine subs in my closet. Do you want them?

4. Every man I've dated has never done me right. All I need is the right man in my life to love me.

5. Please, I want to take this slow because my last boyfriend raped me/stole my car/wouldn't help me pay for my abortion/broke up our engagement after 2 years of being engaged/ slapped me in front of my girlfriends/cussed me out at a public venue/knocked my bladder out of alignment when he kicked me in the stomach.

If a female uses any one of those lines or all of them it's best to run away, no questions asked.

Ah, and by the way, for you ladies that are probably thinking to yourselves, "Wow, IRONHORSE, must have dated some ghetto ass women in his life" you're wrong. Many of the sisters I've come across that have used those lines have come from decent middle to upper class backgrounds and attended predominantly white schools. Some of these girls were high class, in crowd types that ranged from being involved in various types of extra curricular activities, maintained high GPA's, and usually never roamed the streets at night. How females like this chose to get twisted up with thugs and players I have no idea.

If you don't believe me then think about the current mystery in Aruba with the missing white girl, Natalee Halloway. She's a classic example of the type of girl I'm talking about--coming from a rich family, an honors student involved in various extra curricular activities in school, awarded a full scholarship to med school, and surrounded by friends. How is it that a girl of this caliber all of a sudden goes to Aruba and walks the streets, by herself, at night, and hangs out in a bar to drink?

Yeah, I know what you're thinking: "She was just a silly little teenage white girl." Well, how about the incident a few years ago with the former black police chief of Los Angeles' daughter--a beautiful young lady, honors student, sheltered, and from a well-to-do family. How did she get caught up with thug, a criminal with a record, that ended up in her pointless death--getting killed in a drive by? You'd be surprised how many of these teenage girls of any race never grow out of their silly little ways.

These silly little teenage girls grow up into women that run around creating unecessary problems and scenarios throughot their interpersonal lives--few of them learning from their mistakes and many of them in denial about their disfunctional behavior. Many of them aren't from the ghetto, they're your average decent women that just didn't get the proper upbringing and support from their mother or father or the father wasn't present in their lives at all.
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what she really means is that she desires a relationship that is engaging, more specifically, a relationship that is both mentally and physically satisfying.--Rowe


Excuse me, Rowe, I just had to laugh at this statement lol

If you believe that then the reason why I've broken up with every female in my past is because they just couldn't give head just right lol
You sound like a damn fool--going to gradschool full-time and maintaining a full-time career is enough in itself by Ironhorse

I did it and found my wife to be a great source of support. So if I sound like a fool, it's only the ears of that listener.

and trying to maintain a relationship with someone that doesn't understand what you're going through adds that much more stress and strain by Ironhorse

Did you not read the part of my post where I said Marriage to the "right" partner can only help one accomplish these goals?!? Don't cherry pick my post to validiate your life choice.

If you want to get married and try to raise a family while you're in gradschool full-time and working full-time then be my guest but I'm not going to kill myself.

My point in your words. The decision is not related to other potential other, it's related to what you want; how you think it should be. But that's fine. It's your choice; your decision. I'm just saying that when one finds the right person for them, it's not a chore to build a life with them. And, unlike what you feel/believe/opine, the family does not suffer. It learns to work cooperatively, it learns to appreciate together times, it learns to place the needs of the other member before the wants of themselves. All of this builds a stronger, more balanced family unit.

Ironhorse, you seem to equate economic security (whatever that is) with a successful marriage and family. The two are not causative and only tangentially related. Wealth does not make for a happy marriage or family. Likewise, poverty does not make for failed marriages or dysfunctional families.

Marrying someone before or during the time of accomplishing short-term goals will not ensure the success of a marriage,

True, but nor does it ensure its doom. My comments may seem idealistic to you, but there are not to me. My comments are about my life. I married my wife the year before starting law school. We struggled and grew, I completed law school and the marriage survived. In fact, it was the lessons learned during those early struggles that helped us to make it through later trials. Trials that BTW came about BECAUSE OF our economic attainment.

who the hell are you, Kweli, to determine that the people who choose the latter are "self-centered" or "lying" or using it as a "cop-out?"

I am the guy that said that I wanted to have a house and bank and completed education before I got married. I am the guy that, when I met my wife, realized that I was saying, "I don't want to be with you long-term" to all the women that I had used that excuse on.

When you talk about issues like this, Kweli, it's best to localize topics like this to what you can or can't deal with and leave it at that instead of making ignorant generalizations.

... Read your words and apply ...
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Originally posted by Kweli4Real:

I am the guy that said that I wanted to have a house and bank and completed education before I got married. I am the guy that, when I met my wife, realized that I was saying, "I don't want to be with you long-term" to all the women that I had used that excuse on.


You're also the guy who doesn't have to look back with regret at the woman that you once loved (and her new husband and family) and walked away from for "more important" things.

tfro
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Originally posted by IRONHORSE:
If you believe that then the reason why I've broken up with every female in my past is because they just couldn't give head just right


I'm baffled as to how someone whose never been a woman and has absolutely no idea as to what being a woman entails can speak so confidently about what women desire in their mates. And if you're not open to receiving different perspectives on why women desire a challenge in their relationships (besides the narrow-minded one expressed here), then why bother asking the question?
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Originally posted by folobatuyi:
I must have missed that point in my life because with a few exceptions, the very sistas who told me that they are looking for a mental challenge usually ended squalling over the very trivial matters they reportedly wanted to avoid in the first place. Never understood it....someone please help me!


Often times what's considered "trivial matters" to men are important matters to women and vice versa.
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Originally posted by IRONHORSE:
Many of the things these dazed and confused women complain about thugs and players not doing are things that the nice guy...


Oh no. Not the worn out, and oh so fucking tired, "all women want is thugs" explanation. To be certain, many of the problems that black women are experiencing with finding suitable, long-term partners in the black community has little to do with an "attraction" to thugs but the thug state/condition of black men today. If employed (excluding underemployed), law-abiding, positive, and progressive black men were plentiful, we would not be having this conversation. But their not. What is plentiful are thugs and soon-to-be thugs. Therefore, you need to blame American society and its glorification of the black thug image and the black youth's approval of this image for the state of relationships between black youth today. NOT SISTAS. And rather than focus all of your attention on those young sistas who have yet to mature, how about addressing those women who are not attracted to thugs, have never been attracted to thugs, and yet still experience problems establishing long-term partnerships with black men.
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Originally posted by Rowe:
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Originally posted by IRONHORSE:
If you believe that then the reason why I've broken up with every female in my past is because they just couldn't give head just right


I'm baffled as to how someone whose never been a woman and has absolutely no idea as to what being a woman entails can speak so confidently about what women desire in their mates. And if you're not open to receiving different perspectives on why women desire a challenge in their relationships (besides the narrow-minded one expressed here), then why bother asking the question?


I equally find it baffling for someone that has never been a man, and has absolutely no idea what being a man is can speak so boldly as to assume when all women say they want a challenge they are meaning that the men they are currently involved with do not offer them any physical or mental satisfaction.

I also find it baffling that, more often than not, that if there is a problem in a relationship between a black man and a black woman, it is nearly always going to be the brother's fault.

Either a brother is sexually inadequate, intellectually inadequate, financially inept, socially inferior, and spiritually inferior to the black woman, meanwhile, the problem, more often than not, could simply stem from lack of communication i.e. most women expect men to read their minds.

How do I know what many women really mean when they say they want a challenge? I observe my surroundings--I compare my experiences with the experiences of many other men. I observe the behavior patterns of female friends and friends of female friends that say they want a challenge. I listen to the countless stories of how many sisters interpersonal lives have made a turn for the worst after losing a good thing with a good man.

It's not always the case that the sisters are the innocent, unfulfilled victims and the brothers are roguish dogs wandering the streets, and looking for innocent sisters to destroy. More often than not, many sisters seek out destructive brothers whether it be subconscioiusly or intensionally.

Most females that use that tired line of wanting a challenge are usually in their early to mid twenties, haven't found themselves yet, and don't know what the hell they want in a man, and don't know how to ask what they want from a man to begin with.

It seems to me, Rowe, that whenever I create a discussion that you agree with or if I agree with something you've discussed then I'm the best thing since sliced bread, however, when I discuss something you disagree with or if I disagree with something you've discussed then, all of a sudden, I'm the most ignorant, narrow-minded bastard on the face of this earth.

Which one is it, Rowe? I can't be narrow-minded and open-minded at the same time. To a certain degree, many brothers are lacking in many areas, nevertheless, a brother can only be as great as the person or people that raised him, which, invariably, leads back to the mother due to the lack of a positive male role model in the household.
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Oh no. Not the worn out, and oh so fucking tired, "all women want is thugs" explanation. To be certain, many of the problems that black women are experiencing with finding suitable, long-term partners in the black community has little to do with an "attraction" to thugs but the thug state/condition of black men today. If there were more employed, law-abiding, positive, and progressive black men available to sistas, we would not be having this conversation. But there isn't. All we have available to us (in large numbers) ARE THUGS, and wanna-be thugs. Therefore, you need to blame American society and its glorification of the black thug image and the black youth's approval of this image for the state of relationships between black youth today. NOT SISTAS.--Rowe


Oh yeah, once again, the blameless, innocent sisters succomb to the blind, ignorant wrath of us evil, incontemptable, irresponsible, self-destructive brothers. We are all to blame--somebody should dump all of us brothers in a big ass pit, pour motor oil and gasoline over us, and set us ablaze.
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Originally posted by IRONHORSE:
It seems to me, Rowe, that whenever I create a discussion that you agree with or if I agree with something you've discussed then I'm the best thing since sliced bread, however, when I discuss something you disagree with or if I disagree with something you've discussed then, all of a sudden, I'm the most ignorant, narrow-minded bastard on the face of this earth.


Hold on brotha, now don't you think that you're overreacting to my response? I never accused you of any of those things. I don't think you're ignorant! I think the analysis that you've provided about women's desire for "challenge" is narrow-minded because you seemed to be unwilling to receive other perspectives.

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To a certain degree, many brothers are lacking in many areas, nevertheless, a brother can only be as great as the person or people that raised him, which, invariably, leads back to the mother due to the lack of a positive male role model in the household.


The state of black relationships cannot be blamed on either sex. Everyone knows that the condition of black people, as it is today, is related to our history and experiences here in America. This is why it is important that we be open to differences in opinion, perspectives, and solutions as to how we should eliminate these problems. However, to aggressively state that "Black women who want a challenge in relationships really just want a thug and a player" is indeed an ignorant statement. More importantly, the statement is not true.
Here's something to chew on, Rowe:

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Many African American women realize that if black men are going to rise to meet the real needs of the black world, they have got to stop "mothering" them and really work for partnerships in struggle and life. --Haki R. Madhabuti


Here's another piece of wonderful news:

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The idea of sex must be put into the family context...children must cease being accidents and again be seen as priority. When sex is easy, quick and involves many partners, it's meaning is surely to diminish, developinga "get it while it's hot" or "pussy is a penny a pound" mentality; and the proponents of this approach cannot possibly be serious about anything or anyone other than themselves. --Madhabuti


...And yet more evidence arises:

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...the woman's attitude, which devalues the procreative symbolism of intercourse, encourages the man to abandon the long-term sexual commitments that are the basis of his marriage and his role in civilized society. for if sex is not profoundly important--if the woman treats it as perfunctory pleasure, a matter of tension and release like unsocialized male eroticism--then the structure of male socialization itself is imperiled. The man is subtly pushed towards uncivilized patterns that come so naturally to him and that are insistently propagandized in the society. --Gilder

Here's another piece of reality:

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...it seems necessary that the "first" teachers of our people--black mothers--be aware of the positives and negatives of both. Too many black women consistently are associating their oppression with black maleness...Normal outlets for black aggression among many black men do not exist, and black men too often turn such aggression inward or towards those they "love" most. The quality of the home life where black women have traditionally had a very secure and demanding voice, must return; and black men must again assume a position of responsibility in the home. --Madhabuti


Should thugs be rewarded because they are in plentyful supply? No! That's like saying Saddam Hussein should be released and put back into power because he knows his people better than the Americans do.

How can a growing boy have a fighting chance of doing the right thing if all he sees in his immediate environment is how thugs are immediately rewarded for their projecting a false perception of manhood? Here's yet more evidence of the disintigration of black malehood:


The paralyzing damage done to many black men, as a result of not having positive black male role models to emulate and surpass, has been devastating. Black males' warped understanding of their roles as warriors, providers, husbands, fathers is superceded by the street pimp mentality (Hare, 1977, 1984).

...and finally, the finishing blow:

Irresponsibility in regards to who a black woman lets make love to her is recent (Madhubuti 1991).

In your quest of determining who's to blame--who's right and who's wrong, Rowe, you will have to accept varying opinions yourself.
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Ricardomath, I'm going to have to come after you for this statement:

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You're also the guy who doesn't have to look back with regret at the woman that you once loved (and her new husband and family) and walked away from for "more important" things.


Oh, please, Ricardo, spare me.

Let me tell you and kweli a short story.

(Act I Scene I) There was one female back in college I was hopelessly in love with. We talked about marriage, kids, the whole nine yards. Unfortunately, we went from make-up to break-up. After nearly a few years of ups and downs I finally made the decision to stop our roller coster ride. Even though I broke it off with her completely I was so heart broken it took me years to recover.

(Act II Scene II) A year after we graduated from college she hooked up with a guy from South Africa and she called herself falling in love with the guy. She took him all the way back to her parents home in Sri Lanka where he dumped her because she refused to convert from catholicism to his muslim faith.

(Act II Scene III) She left America and stayed in Sri Lanka for two more years where she married her childhood friend. They were married for a year and then divorced. She came back to America where she is currently enrolled in grad school and getting her masters in business administration.

The End.

You're right, Ricardo--looking back I regret I didn't marry my first love--get the fuck outta here. I've been laughing my ass off and thanking the lord I didn't marry that narcissistic, spoiled, self-centered little brat. HA HA HA HAHA HA HAHA!!!
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Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
You sound like a damn fool--going to gradschool full-time and maintaining a full-time career is enough in itself by Ironhorse

I did it and found my wife to be a great source of support. So if I sound like a fool, it's only the ears of that listener.

and trying to maintain a relationship with someone that doesn't understand what you're going through adds that much more stress and strain by Ironhorse

Did you not read the part of my post where I said Marriage to the "right" partner can only help one accomplish these goals?!? Don't cherry pick my post to validiate your life choice.

If you want to get married and try to raise a family while you're in gradschool full-time and working full-time then be my guest but I'm not going to kill myself.

My point in your words. The decision is not related to other potential other, it's related to what you want; how you think it should be. But that's fine. It's your choice; your decision. I'm just saying that when one finds the right person for them, it's not a chore to build a life with them. And, unlike what you feel/believe/opine, the family does not suffer. It learns to work cooperatively, it learns to appreciate together times, it learns to place the needs of the other member before the wants of themselves. All of this builds a stronger, more balanced family unit.

Ironhorse, you seem to equate economic security (whatever that is) with a successful marriage and family. The two are not causative and only tangentially related. Wealth does not make for a happy marriage or family. Likewise, poverty does not make for failed marriages or dysfunctional families.

Marrying someone before or during the time of accomplishing short-term goals will not ensure the success of a marriage,

True, but nor does it ensure its doom. My comments may seem idealistic to you, but there are not to me. My comments are about my life. I married my wife the year before starting law school. We struggled and grew, I completed law school and the marriage survived. In fact, it was the lessons learned during those early struggles that helped us to make it through later trials. Trials that BTW came about BECAUSE OF our economic attainment.

who the hell are you, Kweli, to determine that the people who choose the latter are "self-centered" or "lying" or using it as a "cop-out?"

I am the guy that said that I wanted to have a house and bank and completed education before I got married. I am the guy that, when I met my wife, realized that I was saying, "I don't want to be with you long-term" to all the women that I had used that excuse on.

When you talk about issues like this, Kweli, it's best to localize topics like this to what you can or can't deal with and leave it at that instead of making ignorant generalizations.

... Read your words and apply ...


Like I said before, Kweli, you sound like a damn fool.

Wait a minute--let me correct myself--you sound like a fool and an idiot; prancing around in this discussion, having the pompousity and the audacity to say that chosing to pursue goals first before marriage is bullshit rationalization.

You ain't nobody, Kweli--you aren't the voice of black America. You've definately expressed an egocentric state of mind to think that just because everything is okay in Kweliland that no one should say otherwise--all is well everywhere else on planet Earth.

Just like marrying early doesn't ensure the success of a marriage nor does waiting until later, getting married early doesn't make you or anyone else more of a man. With a divorce rate of over 50% in North America it certainly doesn't take a miracle to find someone to marry so you still aren't saying shit just because you're married.

You really sound like one of those sappy, idealistic white women in Oprah Winfrey's book club with this estrogen-filled, tea and cookies comment you made:

quote:
Marriage to the "right" partner can only help one accomplish these goals.--kweli


Your wife must have been watching over your shoulder when you typed up that warmed over garbage. I don't need a wife in order to accomplish my goals nor does anyone else on planet earth need a spouse to accomplish goals in their lives.

You know, Kweli, I don't think you even have a mind of your own. You sound like a man that has the kind of wife that lays his clothes out on the bed for what he's going to wear to work everyday. I'm laughing my ass off at this next piece of emasculated trash you wasted 30 seconds to type up:

quote:
Face it. The accomplishments that we pursue, in lieu of marriage, are not for the potential future other, but for ourselves.--Kweli


Oh yeah? Well, who the fuck else is going to reap the benefits of the accomplishments achieved in lieu of marriage? The Pope? Get the fuck outta here, Kweli. You need to wake up and smell some testosterone.

black people have the highest rate of co-habitation, the lowest rate of marriage, the highest rate of divorce, and the highest rate of single parent households and you think the answer is marrying early? Yeah, Kweli, you need to get out more often--get yourself some male friends instead of hanging around your wife's friends and talking about the latest cliff hangers on various daytime soaps.

You've been wearing your wife's slippers and apron for so long you aren't even in the right state of mind to effectively comment on the current interpersonal issues between black men and women.

I don't give a damn about the little semipermeable bubble you're living in, Kweli--I know one damn thing is for sure--I've seen, first hand, the disappointment and despair that can come from poor planning. In my opinion, getting married and raising a family is too important, especially in black America, to gamble with people's lives--unborn lives--for the sake of love and matrimony.

I know myself better than you do, Kweli--If I had not gone through those years of trial and error with different relationships I know in my heart those unanswered questions would haunt me if I had married before I was ready. If I had not gained the knowledge and wisdom as well as the hands on (no pun intended) experience of understanding women and understanding myself I know I would not have been the best husband I could be, thereby, becoming yet another statistic amongst the sky-rocketing divorce rate.

If I happen to fall in love and get married before I complete all of my goals, so be it--I never said I was against it. One thing is definately for sure--I will go into marriage as prepaired as a man can possibly be, financially, spiritually, and nearly every other way possible,thereby, ensuring the success and longevity of my marriage.
quote:
Originally posted by IRONHORSE:
Many African American women realize that if black men are going to rise to meet the real needs of the black world, they have got to stop "mothering" them...The idea of sex must be put into the family context...children must cease being accidents and again be seen as priority.


I hate to disappoint you, but you certainly have not provided any useful "evidence" supporting your assertions. All you have done here, at this juncture, is provided excerpts of statements that confirm your chauvinistic and sexist views of women, black women in particular. You, as well as these "scholars," whose credibility begs investigation, have conveniently positioned the blame for the state of the black community upon the shoulders of black women who have done everything possible to uphold our community since their involuntary arrival to America. Considering the unprecedented contributions that African Women have made and continue to make, to basically describe African Women as "hoars" is disgraceful. You should be embarressed for openly embracing attitudes that support these descriptions of women. Understand that a man has just as much control over his genitals and sexual interest as a woman. Furthermore, when a man agrees to have sex, this sex is not forced upon him. Therefore, encouraging black men to not be accountable for their part in participating in "easy sex" is a characteristic of the very same "mothering" that you claim to be against. If black men want to be MEN, and more importantly, treated as such, then regain control over your manhood and leadership over your communities. As soon as this takes place, everything else will fall line as it should be. A Man believes that he should be accountable for what he does and acknwoledges the outcome of his decisions. He doesn't make excuses. Finally, a woman's sexuality and who she choses to be intimate with is her damn business. Women should not be expected to live by sexist, double standards that have been ultimately created to serve the insecure needs of men.
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I'm neither sexist nor am I chauvenistic, so you can hang that up, Rowe. I in no way am saying it's the woman's fault for the despair that black America is currently in.

Black men have been told, over and over, by America as well as our own women how inadequate, inferior, irresponsible, evil, and immature we are, and I, for one, am sick and damn tired of it.

WE BLACK MEN GET THE MESSAGE--[THEY] NEED TO GET THEIR ACTS TOGETHER-- now, lets move on instead of bashing black men over and over and over and over again. You're a damn black woman, Rowe--act like one. You want things to change, then stop whinning and do something about it!!!!

Since the first day I came in AA.org you whinned and complained about how black men aren't measuring up but I haven't read one damn topic from you where you're doing anything to make things better. I supported your mantra but now that I've switched gears and focused my criticism on women now you want to say I'm a chauvenist pig. Get outta here with that garbage.

I'm well aware of how most black men have fallen short of being the black woman's champion, however, I also get sick and tired of fighting what seems to be an uphill battle. Brothers like me may be few and far between but we still fight to do what is right and still have to take the blame from black women for the dastardly deeds other black men have committed.

The bottom line is nobody is putting any guns up to black women's heads either--it doesn't matter who lays down with whom, the black woman is the one that is going to be left holding the bag or, in this case, the baby. So, what are you saying, Rowe? That black women have no control over their own bodies--that all a black man has to do is just swing his dick and a sister is rendered helpless and open her legs?

If black women want to be WOMEN, then be a fucking WOMAN, and close your damn legs!! Stop whinning and complaining about how sorry black men are and tell a sorry ass nigga to step off!! If you know the sorry nigga ain't no damn good--if he has several other baby mamas all over town, what makes a sister think it's going to be any different with her???

Black men need to be held more accountable as well as black women. It takes TWO to make a baby, therefore, women should act like WOMEN and tell the nigga to wear protection or abstain altogether.

quote:
a woman's sexuality and who she choses to be intimate with is her damn business. --Rowe


What the hell is that garbage? If it's her own damn business then she needs to be MORE RESPONSIBLE with her OWN DAMN BUSINESS. When a sister gets knocked up by a sorry ass nigga then it needs to be her OWN DAMN BUSINESS how she handles raising a child she knows will probably never see his or her father. If a sister's sexuality is her OWN DAMN BUSINESS then she needs to shut the fuck up, stop complaining and roll with the punches if she feels like a DICK is more important than her life.

You talk about young brothers needing to be taught how to be more responsible in regards to sisters--I've already done that but at the same time I go after the young females too. You can't go after the young black males and try to correct them when all they have to do is go around that corner and there's some little hot ass girls tempting them. YOUNG BLACK FEMALES NEED TO BE TAUGHT HOW TO RESPECT THEIR BODIES.

This is a two-way street, Rowe, and you better develop a thick skin very quickly or you're going to find that you're going to get your feelings hurt rather often when you read my discussions--I go after black men and I sure as hell don't spare the sisters. BOTH need to be held responsible--BOTH need to be better educated.
That's not what I said. I said that That's all a BS rationalization for where one is. I have never met anyone who was being honest when they used this tired line. Rather, they were (I was) saying, "You are not (or I have not found) the person that I want to be with long-term." Period. If that shoe doesn't fit you, than good for you. But believe it or not, you aren't the voice of black America. You've definately expressed an egocentric state of mind to think that just because everything is okay in Ironhorseland that no one should say otherwise (to use your words.)

Are you so egocentric that you can't even agree with the obvious? You take issue with my saying that "marriage to the "right" partner can only help one accomplish these goals." What kind of simpleton are you? I didn't say that people can't accomplish goals on their own. But only an insecure, emotional retard believes that accomplishment within a familial unit isn't a something to be desired.

How is expressing my life's experience not having a mind of my own? And, what's this "wife laying out clothes" drivel? How is any of that relevant to the topic at hand. And while I'm at it, why are you so fixated on the lack of masculinity of other men? [When you get a chance, look up homophobic projection. And then re-read your post(s).]

How is recognizing that pursuing personal goals are essentially egocentric exercises "emasculated trash." Maybe I don't know your definition of emasculated. But in my world, self-honesty is the height of manliness.

You ask who else is going to reap the benefits? How about my family, my seed. In my world success is sweeter when shared with family. And thank you, I have enough testosterone, I don't need to smell any more.

"black people have the highest rate of co-habitation, the lowest rate of marriage, the highest rate of divorce, and the highest rate of single parent households and you think the answer is marrying early? One, I question those statistics, but No, I'm simply saying I have never met anyone who was being honest when they used this tired line. Rather, they were (I was) saying, "You are not (or I have not found) the person that I want to be with long-term." Period. That's not so hard to understand is it?

If so ... If you have an argument with that, what is the sense of this statement?: "If I happen to fall in love and get married before I complete all of my goals, so be it--I never said I was against it."

You have spent so much effort attempting to challenge my masculinity that you seem to have forgotten that that sentence was my whole point: If one meets the right person, marriage is a good thing. Until then, the pursuit of goals excuse is merely telling the other person that they are not the one you want.
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
quote:
Originally posted by IRONHORSE:
Hold on--we're getting a little too far ahead of the game.

Let me use you and, for sake of argument, me, for an example: If I have conveyed to you my initial feelings toward you--if we are both at a stage of just getting to know each other--you haven't made an effort to express your true intensions toward me and, compounding the issue, you are stand offish, why should I stop 'pursuing' other women especially since I'm not romantically involved with them?

When I said taking an emotional risk, I didn't mean put your heart into a man you are unsure of. Taking an emotional risk, especially early in the game, in my opinion, may be expressing how you feel about a person and what you would like to achieve with that person--no kissing, no hugging, no signing any contracts--just tell a person how you feel.

Personally, I will not invest any emotional energy in a woman that hasn't given me clear intentions on where she sees herself with me in whatever disclosed time she feels is acceptable. When a woman can clearly express her intensions to me and maintain her intensions, then I will reprioritize and stop socializing with other women, otherwise, I would stand to lose not only what I've gained before coming showing interest in you, I will also stand to lose you to whomever brother that you may have waiting in the wings that I'm not aware of.

There's nothing I hate MORE than being completely exclusive to a woman that isn't completely clear on her actions, yet she wants me to bear my soul to her for the world to see,then, out of the blue, you get that midnight call, "Sweetie, we need to talk....there's someone else." FUCK THAT--I've been down that road once, when I was more inexperienced, and I've vowed never to go down that road again.


Hhmmmmm interesting.

See what you fail to realize, is that a lot of brothas, are turned off by women, that are aggressive in this respect.

There are times, in which women expressed their feelings, only to be told that the feelings werent mutual. (At first, everything was cool, until he comes up with a list of things that irritates him)

See im never going to allow a man to just 'talk'.........because talk is cheap. He has to show me, if he finds this to be concern.

If he feels the need to move, on and pursue other women.........then she should do the same.

For me i am inexperience, because i dont allow myself to become emotionally attached, just because he tells me that 'he likes me'.

Thats not good enough!!!!!!!

Ohhh well, thats life.


both are good comments and Points Of View. I can see both sides, and I'm not even a Libran (that's a joke). Seriously though, there seem to be 3 types of mindsets out there: the don't care/let's not commit/don't want any obligations; the open communication relationship where things are talked out/talked about and the what I call "scared-to-share". Sometimes people are ready to talk, sometimes it just isn't going to happen.
At the heart of any relationship is intimacy - and true intimacy is about sharing everything, not just dates, beds, meals, but expressing true feelings and emotions. And that includes men. Respect goes both ways... and each person should give the other space to speak, think and feel. Even if we don't want to hear it. The other 'biggie' after intimacy is trust.
They are the big two. And they are risky and scarey but so necessary if you want a truly close, healthy, honest relationship. And sadly, not many people do have that. And IMHO that's because not many of us have the skills to really do the 'communication thang'. Just a thought. On a more cynical note, I sometimes wonder if the reason a lot of men are scared to 'commit' whether it's marriage or a defacto live-in relationship, is due to the fact (or fear) that only 6 months into a relationship, a woman can claim assets from the man. Not saying that is any woman I know's motivation... but I do wonder. Guys? Speak up.
And it IS really great to hear guys contributing to this thread. Ciao 4 now. Smile
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Iron, you are one disturbed individual who has more issues related to relationships than you're perhaps willing to reveal and admit. I hope whatever that is causing your spirit to be in such disharmony eventually finds rest.

Peace brotha.


Peace yourself, Rowe. The mere fact that you feel I'm disturbed because I won't consistently clap my hands and say hallelujah everytime you're ready to bash black men--the mere fact that you foam at the mouth when I'm in opposition to parts of your discussion when, overall, I'm in agreement with what you've said, and aware of the shortcomings of black men means you're the one that is more disturbed as well as jaded and biased.

It's not enough for you that I am critical of black men. I must only be critical of black men or risk disappointing you--because black women are blameless, innocent victims that are incapable of committing similar acts that also contribute to the disparities in black men and women? Please. Grow up, Rowe.
quote:
I sometimes wonder if the reason a lot of men are scared to 'commit' whether it's marriage or a defacto live-in relationship, is due to the fact (or fear) that only 6 months into a relationship, a woman can claim assets from the man.--art gurl


Huh? What assets? I'm no Tom Cruise or Bill Gates. What's mine is hers and what's hers is mine. As far as I'm concerned, art gurl, I'm not "afraid" of commitment, intimacy, trust or love. I welcome those attributes that make a monogamous relationship so fulfilling. It took me years of trial and error and some hard knocks from growing up as a child with two older sisters and a mom to realize this important aspect:

quote:
...it takes a black man with an exceptionally strong ego and enlightened worldview to seriously, on the long-term basis, deal with a black woman who is educationally, financially and professionally his superior.--Haki R. Madhubuti


The problem comes where black women or women in general have become so comfortable, through women's lib, with their newfound independence and power that they have begun to take on some of the same morays and folkways that men have.

You hear sisters say it all the time, "I don't need a man to validate me" and want the freedom to be spiteful, leary, and vengeful towards men in general when the reason for their spite, leariness, and vengefulness only stems from negative experiences with a handful of men they've encountered.

This puts the good black men in a position of having to be more aggressive, more assertive and more accomplished to overcome the bitterness and jadedness of the typical angry sister. So, when you say brothers are "turned off" by aggressive women, you are wrong in my case. Aggressive women turn me on.

There's nothing I love more than a woman that knows what she wants, goes after it, and doesn't take any shit off of a man. Unfortunately, too many sisters go to the extreme--either they try to emasculate men as they try to prove their financial and professional superiority, competing for position in a relationship or they're in the mode of blaming men for all of their insecurities and fears, thereby, running away at the slightest hint of adversity.

I'm not afraid of a woman that may make more money than me. I'm not afraid of the formidible intellect, strength, and integrity of a black woman. In the same instance I think that in my ability to face women of this nature I may be considered intimidating to women that haven't reached that level of success, self-confidence, and self-esteem, nevertheless, I am ready and willing to have a strong sister in my life, and I possess the fortitude and integrity to develop a long term relationship which will lead to marriage with the woman that I desire when the time is right.
Oh, please, Ricardo, spare me.

Let me tell you and kweli a short story.

(Act I Scene I) There was one female back in college I was hopelessly in love with. We talked about marriage, kids, the whole nine yards. Unfortunately, we went from make-up to break-up. After nearly a few years of ups and downs I finally made the decision to stop our roller coster ride. Even though I broke it off with her completely I was so heart broken it took me years to recover.

(Act II Scene II) A year after we graduated from college she hooked up with a guy from South Africa and she called herself falling in love with the guy. She took him all the way back to her parents home in Sri Lanka where he dumped her because she refused to convert from catholicism to his muslim faith.

(Act II Scene III) She left America and stayed in Sri Lanka for two more years where she married her childhood friend. They were married for a year and then divorced. She came back to America where she is currently enrolled in grad school and getting her masters in business administration.

The End.

You're right, Ricardo--looking back I regret I didn't marry my first love--get the fuck outta here. I've been laughing my ass off and thanking the lord I didn't marry that narcissistic, spoiled, self-centered little brat. HA HA HA HAHA HA HAHA!!![/QUOTE]


Very enlightening story I would love to hear the other side of it.
Fagunwa, there is no other side to the story! nono At least none that matter. Haven't you learned that Ironhorse's take on any issue is right, correct and ultimately, the only one that matters. To suggest otherwise is evidence of your exhibiting group-think and one's masculinity deficiency and will make you subject to a profanity filled, childish tirade of name calling and personal attacks.
Actually, Kweli, I don't mind being wrong. As a matter of fact I don't even mind asking for help if I don't have the complete information on a particular subject. I've asked for help before on this site and I'll ask for it again if I need it.

While I'm on the subject, Kweli, lets step back a moment. I believe you were the one that made this generalized statement:

quote:
Financially stable? Educationally complete? Settled in a career? That's all a BS rationalization for where one is. I have never met anyone who was being honest when they used this tired line. Rather, they were (I was) saying, "You are not (or I have not found) the person that I want to be with long-term." Period.--Kweli


Then you back stroked to make this next remark:

quote:
That's not what I said. I said that That's all a BS rationalization for where one is. I have never met anyone who was being honest when they used this tired line. Rather, they were (I was) saying, "You are not (or I have not found) the person that I want to be with long-term." Period. If that shoe doesn't fit you, than good for you. --Kweli


You never made the distinction in your original conversation as to whether you were talking about certain other people or whether you were pigeonholing me as well as several other brothers on this site into the same category. With that, I'll refer back to what I've always been told since I first came to this site: CLARIFY WHAT IT IS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

I'm going to remind of you another generalized comment you made, which is in direct relation to the "bullshit rationalization" comment:

quote:
As far as I've seen, this "I'm too busy accomplishing my goals to get married" rap is either a cop-out or a lie and in either case is extremely self-centered.--Kweli


Like I said before, if I've ever been wrong about something since being on this site I would have the integrity to admit to being wrong, nevertheless, I don't lash out and make generalized statments about people I don't know on issues that I have no idea why those people chose the decision they made in how they lead their lives.

Some people chose to become successful and aquire material things instead of being responsible and settling down because they're immature and self-centered. Other people chose to accomplish goals and aquire financial holdings before they marry in order not to make the same mistakes as their predecessors--I am the latter.

Admit it, Kweli, you've always had it in for me dude. You've followed me around from day one--whenever you thought somebody told me off you chimmed right in, "Yeah, IRONHORSE, he surely told you off!" Yadda, yadda, yadda. I didn't care and I still don't care. I'm a good sport, heheheheh....but I also know how to pick my moments.

You must also admit that my sharp wit hurt your feelings. I wouldn't be surprised if half of that stuff I said about you was true, which is probably why you're still catching a case over it. I didn't challenge your masculinity--you simply put yourself out there and I took advantage of the moment.

You'll be alright, Kweli. Heheheheheh..
quote:
Very enlightening story I would love to hear the other side of it.--Fagunwa


Actually, Kweli, there is another part to the story.

(Act III Scene I) Over the years my best friend and my ex's former college roomate grew closer and closer together but on a frienship level. She kept tabs on my ex and told me about whatever she was up to or whatever was going on in her life.

My best friend encouraged me to email her to see if her feelings were still the same as mine. I emailed her and we exchanged a few friendly emails. When I told her in an email that I still loved her after all these years she stopped returning my emails.

About two or three years later my best friend called me up--fed up over whatever series of conversations she had between her and my ex girlfriend. She told me that she finally decided to end her 10-year friendship with my ex because my ex had betrayed her on different levels several times over the years. You have to wonder if that ex of mine has any friends at all.

THE END.

You want to know the other side of the story, Fagunwa? Well, here's the other side of the story: My ex never originally meant to get involved when she came to America to get her undergrad degree. Her brother watched her very closely to make sure she didn't get tempted, and was prepaired to send her home if she did get tempted.

As she has said herself, she does not get attached to people, therefore, friendships were expendible. Even though she said she was in love with me she knew her parents wouldn't accept me because I was American and because I was black. She pretended to be interested in a guy her parents approved of and kept him at arms length while she continued her romance with me.

In the end, even though I had broken up with her, she never developed any real feelings for her approved fiancee, and dumped him shortly after our break-up. It seems kind of fitting that she took her next boyfriend all the way back to Sri Lanka only to get dumped right in front of her family.

Boy, I like telling that story--it's the stuff that sells novels.
Ironhorse,

How can I make a statement and then "backstroke" by making the exact same statement?

First, How is that statement a generalized statement? Were you able to see past your self-perceived BS Rationalization threat and read the part of my comment where I said, "I have never met anyone who was being honest when they used this tired line. Rather, they were (I was) saying, "You are not (or I have not found) the person that I want to be with long-term." Period? I'll be more specific, I said that I have never met anyone ... Rather they were (I was) saying ..." (and so forth).

Seeing as the world revolves around you and your view of it, I can see how you failed to see my distinction as to whether I was talking about certain other people or pigeonholing you.

I also can see how you view the next comment you quoted as a generalized comment. But anyone that read my post in its entirety probably would not have come to the same conclusion. See most people read for content and context. [Oops, that's another generalization Frown] That's extremely hard to do when one feels threatened and approaches the post with the intent to argue it down.

if I've ever been wrong about something since being on this site I would have the integrity to admit to being wrong, nevertheless, I don't lash out and make generalized statments about people I don't know on issues that I have no idea why those people chose the decision they made in how they lead their lives.

You've got to be kidding, right? I suggest that you re-read any of your posts where someone expressed an opinion contrary to your's. Then, come back and tell me if that statement is true.

Admit it, Kweli, you've always had it in for me dude. You've followed me around from day one

Nope, I haven't had it out for you. I typically ignore your comments, largely because I can't abide your ego-inflated, abusive style. And please don't mistake/confuse crassness and/or homophobic projection with sharp wit.
But back to the matter at hand ...

I my view, too many people are unable to be honest with themselves. They spend extraordinary effort to convince themselves that they are happy with where they are because it is where they planned to be. These people are easy to spot. They are the ones that spent extrordinary effort to convince others that they are happy with where they are because it is where they planned to be.

If you're happy where you are, where you are not and what you are not doing isn't even a talking point other than maybe a brief passing conversation.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
But back to the matter at hand ...

I my view, too many people are unable to be honest with themselves. They spend extraordinary effort to convince themselves that they are happy with where they are because it is where they planned to be. These people are easy to spot. They are the ones that spent extrordinary effort to convince others that they are happy with where they are because it is where they planned to be.

If you're happy where you are, where you are not and what you are not doing isn't even a talking point other than maybe a brief passing conversation.


AMEN to that! tfro tfro
I'm going to be straight to the point with you, as I always am with every discussion, Kweli. First of all, hiding under "in my opinion" then prancing on to make sweeping generalizations, once again, like the garbage, EbonyRose, just quoted displays such cowardice and narrow-mindedness--I don't care what kind of condescending, brow-beating, indirectly obnoxious comment you have to make in response to this one.

I don't give a damn how successful, whatever that may be, your marriage is and whatever else that is going on in your life--you can't sit there and determine (even in your opinion) that if it isn't done your way then people are just wasting their time, lying to themselves and considered "a brief passing conversation."

True, there are some people that aren't honest with themselves about being financially and professionally secure yet they're matrimonially inaccessible, Then there are the people, people like me, that have seen the destructive effects, first hand, of improper or poor preparation i.e. a financially, spiritually, mentally, and psychologically unprepared, irresponsible father with no plan on how to lead his family. This is where you need to make the distinction in your discussion, I don't give a damn if you thought you assumed that I knew you're not including me in the equation or not.

Okay, forget exact statistics because people like you will discredit statistics anyway just to keep the point you're calling yourself making valid--the divorce rate is too high already, which means many people are getting married and either are not ready for marriage or they married for the wrong reasons. So, out of the millions of failed marriages (not even counting canceled engagements or weddings that went sour at the alter) you're going to sit there and say, in your opinion, that marriage is the end all be all just because yours may have been successful?

Let me just get right down to the bare bones of your initial sweeping generalization since you don't see it for yourself:

quote:
Financially stable? Educationally complete? Settled in a career? That's all a BS rationalization for where one is.--Kweli


Was there any distinction made there between the self-centered people and the people with sincere reasons for not pursuing marriage? No.

quote:
As far as I've seen, this "I'm too busy accomplishing my goals to get married" rap is either a cop-out or a lie and in either case is extremely self-centered.--Kweli


Aparently, Kweli, you can't or don't want to see too far, especially what could be considered outside your comfort zone--of all things black people should be concerned about when entertaining the notion of marriage, they should primarily be concerned with financial stability, which means eliminating as much debt as possible as well as saving as much money as possible before marriage, hell, even before or during the dating stage of a relationship, and, if possible, securing the best possible employment whether through credentials already obtained or whether in pursuit of the proper credentials.

There are still other reasons why people don't get married or don't need to be getting married--many people need to take time and date various members of the opposite sex to find out what they truly want and need in a partner. Many need to go through the dating process in order to find themselves--figure out their strengths and weaknesses in relation to how they interact with a significant other. Many people need to just dig deep and find out what love truly is and whether or not it is truly there in the relationship before pursuing marriage. If true love isn't there then you're wasting your time to think about marriage anyway.

Things like what I just mentioned above needs to be found out before marriage and before engagement. No, it's not an excuse or a cop-out or bullshit rationalization. Many people just aren't ready for marriage in the same general age category as some others regardless of what they have or don't have. Some people get married in their early 20's and others don't get married until their late 40's. You, Kweli, are of no authority to determine which is more acceptable just because of your one finite experience with matrimony.

That would be like me saying because I'm 33, single, no kids, never served time in prison, I'm not gay, educated at the graduate level, and working professionally that if any other brothers aren't doing the same, then they're worthless. People are raised differently and grow up with different priorities, different influences, different environments, different goals, different aspirations, different mindsets, different mentalities--to want to pursue and be successful at the ideal is great but one isn't any less than if they don't aquire certain things at a certain time, marriage, particularly, being one of those things.
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You know what? I'm done talking with you because in your small world the only thought, expression or opinion of any value is your own. You refuse to see anyone else's point of view, unless it is supportive of what you have said.

There is a clinical term for that condition, but that's cool.

If you interact in the real world anything as you do on-line, I know exactly why you are pursuing education, economic stability and all the other things you are doing while askewing close relationships. But, it has very little to do with your choices.

I'll repeat: I my view, too many people are unable to be honest with themselves. They spend extraordinary effort to convince themselves that they are happy with where they are because it is where they planned to be.

In closing, if you'd take your head out of your a$$, the world would appear to be a much brighter and fresh smelling place.

Peace, I'm through. giveup
Everyone that has posted on this topic has brought up many valid points. However, with all of the name calling going on, no one is going to be willing to listen to each other.

The topic is...

quote:
Why are brothers waiting until theyre in their late 30's to get married?


THIS IS A BOLD STATEMENT...secretly wrapped as a question. The topic starter is asking this question based on what type of evidence???... She may be basing this on the men she interacts with. So, with that said, is QTY justified in making this STATEMENT because she talks with black men in their late 30s who are not married?

It's like saying "Since some black men are criminals, all black men are criminals."

and then

Since you don't notice the black men who are not criminals, you will still say

"Why are black men criminals?"

Who cares if some black men in their late-30s are single? Why are you forcing yourself to deal with them anyway??? Would you rather deal with men in their late-30s who are married??? There are single black men (in their 20s and 30s) out there who DO want a real relationship and want to get married. Perhaps, maybe QTY (and others who believe as she does) will not notice them because she is so fixated on the "brothers waiting until their late 30's?"

I am not on here to bash anyone. It's just so funny how this topic is not even supported by any kind of statistics, just word of mouth. Most people I know who are in their late 30s (male, female, black, white) and single, have already been married and are now divorced.

RONIN10
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