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As we talk about the dating scene, im realizing that i would love to (in the near future), get married, and have a family before the age of 30. I guess i find dating to be annoying at some point........and a waste of my time. Brothas my age, are not ready........so my options are to date brothas that are older (which i have no problems with).

Why is this happening?
```````````````````````` "Dipped in chocolate, bronzed with elegance, enameled with grace, toasted with beauty. "My Lord, she is a Black woman!" -Yosef Ben-Jochannan
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Well I got married in my late twenties, had everything pretty much together and still wound up divorced...lol...so my answer would be brothas are trying to enjoy life and achieve certain goals before settleing down...I know thats what I did. Now the dudes your age well.....most of them are not ready because they know that they first have to learn about life and enjoy being single. Of course there are those that don't have a clue and will never have one but I digress....and younger guys have started to date older women as well because they want that "maturity" in thier relationships. Basically what I'm getting at is as long as you find someone on your level making every effort to be a complete person without any undue drama in thier lives...age is a very small factor. Many today are just wanting to get as much out of single life as possible before making the big leap.
quote:
I have to admit, although i've never had relationship issues, etc, but i have friends that are having problems........that i care not to deal with.

So i move along with my day, and life.......expecting to be single, because i cant seem to trust. I dont want to deal with unnecessary problems, that would cause my life to be turned upside down.


You have to admit, QTY, that what you have said coincides with what I have expressed in my discussion entitled, "Why Trust Sisters?"

So, why is it that, to a certain extent, I'm getting the impression that you feel it's okay for you to feel the way you feel about dating, yet, I shouldn't?

We have both expressed the same concerns, the same disdain for drama and the same goals and aspirations for marriage, love and happiness--so why does it feel like we're at odds on an issue that we both agree with?

As Musiq Soulchild said:

"Stop worryin' bout,' small thangs that, ain't relevent to me."
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Originally posted by xxGAMBITxx:
Well I got married in my late twenties, had everything pretty much together and still wound up divorced...lol...so my answer would be brothas are trying to enjoy life and achieve certain goals before settleing down...I know thats what I did. Now the dudes your age well.....most of them are not ready because they know that they first have to learn about life and enjoy being single. Of course there are those that don't have a clue and will never have one but I digress....and younger guys have started to date older women as well because they want that "maturity" in thier relationships. Basically what I'm getting at is as long as you find someone on your level making every effort to be a complete person without any undue drama in thier lives...age is a very small factor. Many today are just wanting to get as much out of single life as possible before making the big leap.


Well i agree, although i think that most brothas are single, because they are happy living this way. They enjoy being with several women, meeting different women, having fun. ...........and for some, even though they think about marriage, family etc, they cant seem to pull themselves out of this way of thinking.
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Originally posted by IRONHORSE:
quote:
I have to admit, although i've never had relationship issues, etc, but i have friends that are having problems........that i care not to deal with.

So i move along with my day, and life.......expecting to be single, because i cant seem to trust. I dont want to deal with unnecessary problems, that would cause my life to be turned upside down.


You have to admit, QTY, that what you have said coincides with what I have expressed in my discussion entitled, "Why Trust Sisters?"

So, why is it that, to a certain extent, I'm getting the impression that you feel it's okay for you to feel the way you feel about dating, yet, I shouldn't?

We have both expressed the same concerns, the same disdain for drama and the same goals and aspirations for marriage, love and happiness--so why does it feel like we're at odds on an issue that we both agree with?

As Musiq Soulchild said:

"Stop worryin' bout,' small thangs that, ain't relevent to me."
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
quote:
Originally posted by IRONHORSE:
quote:
I have to admit, although i've never had relationship issues, etc, but i have friends that are having problems........that i care not to deal with.

So i move along with my day, and life.......expecting to be single, because i cant seem to trust. I dont want to deal with unnecessary problems, that would cause my life to be turned upside down.


You have to admit, QTY, that what you have said coincides with what I have expressed in my discussion entitled, "Why Trust Sisters?"

So, why is it that, to a certain extent, I'm getting the impression that you feel it's okay for you to feel the way you feel about dating, yet, I shouldn't?

We have both expressed the same concerns, the same disdain for drama and the same goals and aspirations for marriage, love and happiness--so why does it feel like we're at odds on an issue that we both agree with?

As Musiq Soulchild said:

"Stop worryin' bout,' small thangs that, ain't relevent to me."


Iron....

I understand that a lot of these issues has to do with 'trust'.

You mentioned that i should just deal with matters at hand, and take some emotional risks?

I think not......especially when matters are clear, that he is still pursuing others....and im just one of many.

I dont think its wise to pursue, or involve myself with a man, that continues to behave in this manner.

Again.....i can make this call, BEFORE dating him.....and when i notice this, i simply move on.
Hold on--we're getting a little too far ahead of the game.

Let me use you and, for sake of argument, me, for an example: If I have conveyed to you my initial feelings toward you--if we are both at a stage of just getting to know each other--you haven't made an effort to express your true intensions toward me and, compounding the issue, you are stand offish, why should I stop 'pursuing' other women especially since I'm not romantically involved with them?

When I said taking an emotional risk, I didn't mean put your heart into a man you are unsure of. Taking an emotional risk, especially early in the game, in my opinion, may be expressing how you feel about a person and what you would like to achieve with that person--no kissing, no hugging, no signing any contracts--just tell a person how you feel.

Personally, I will not invest any emotional energy in a woman that hasn't given me clear intentions on where she sees herself with me in whatever disclosed time she feels is acceptable. When a woman can clearly express her intensions to me and maintain her intensions, then I will reprioritize and stop socializing with other women, otherwise, I would stand to lose not only what I've gained before showing interest in you, there is also the possiblity of losing you to whomever brother that you may have waiting in the wings that I'm not aware of.

There's nothing I hate MORE than being completely exclusive to a woman that isn't completely clear on her actions, yet she wants me to bear my soul to her for the world to see,then, out of the blue, you get that midnight call, "Sweetie, we need to talk....there's someone else." FUCK THAT--I've been down that road once, when I was more inexperienced, and I've vowed never to go down that road again.

This is one of the main reasons why brothers, particularly sensible, sincere eligible brothers, wait until their 30's to get married--many women want a brother to invest more emotional energy into a relationship that, oftentimes, they aren't willing to invest in themselves, particularly women that have issues trusting men or some other unresolved issue.

A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush--why should a brother give up something he already has for something he is unsure of, unless there is evidence to give that brother a reason to commit?
quote:
Originally posted by IRONHORSE:
Hold on--we're getting a little too far ahead of the game.

Let me use you and, for sake of argument, me, for an example: If I have conveyed to you my initial feelings toward you--if we are both at a stage of just getting to know each other--you haven't made an effort to express your true intensions toward me and, compounding the issue, you are stand offish, why should I stop 'pursuing' other women especially since I'm not romantically involved with them?

When I said taking an emotional risk, I didn't mean put your heart into a man you are unsure of. Taking an emotional risk, especially early in the game, in my opinion, may be expressing how you feel about a person and what you would like to achieve with that person--no kissing, no hugging, no signing any contracts--just tell a person how you feel.

Personally, I will not invest any emotional energy in a woman that hasn't given me clear intentions on where she sees herself with me in whatever disclosed time she feels is acceptable. When a woman can clearly express her intensions to me and maintain her intensions, then I will reprioritize and stop socializing with other women, otherwise, I would stand to lose not only what I've gained before coming showing interest in you, I will also stand to lose you to whomever brother that you may have waiting in the wings that I'm not aware of.

There's nothing I hate MORE than being completely exclusive to a woman that isn't completely clear on her actions, yet she wants me to bear my soul to her for the world to see,then, out of the blue, you get that midnight call, "Sweetie, we need to talk....there's someone else." FUCK THAT--I've been down that road once, when I was more inexperienced, and I've vowed never to go down that road again.


Hhmmmmm interesting.

See what you fail to realize, is that a lot of brothas, are turned off by women, that are aggressive in this respect.

There are times, in which women expressed their feelings, only to be told that the feelings werent mutual. (At first, everything was cool, until he comes up with a list of things that irritates him)

See im never going to allow a man to just 'talk'.........because talk is cheap. He has to show me, if he finds this to be concern.

If he feels the need to move, on and pursue other women.........then she should do the same.

For me i am inexperience, because i dont allow myself to become emotionally attached, just because he tells me that 'he likes me'.

Thats not good enough!!!!!!!

Ohhh well, thats life.
No, it's not 'just life,' QTY. You want a brother to do more than just tell you 'he likes you' then you have to give that brother a chance. You have to give that brother some rope, an opening, an opportunity to establish a connection with you.

and, furthermore, if a brother can't be comfortable in conveying to you his concerns, then what's the point of getting closer? Like I said before, it's a two-way street--If the brother feels he has concerns to voice, you are perfectly in the right to voice concerns of your own.

This is where people make mistakes in relationships, especially in the begining--they go into a relationship avoiding important issues in order not to rock the boat--unfortunately, down the line, these little little concerns become big problems. I've tried that route before too--keeping my mouth shut and going with the flow--it never works. I prefer to settle issues as they occur instead of letting issues pile up, which is another reason why relationships go bad--poor communication.

Not voicing your concerns is many times redirected to later issues, which intensifies what could have been a minor issue if other issues had been discussed earlier.

QTY, you should be made to feel free to voice your concerns, whatever those concerns may be--the brother you're dealing with must also have the integrity and piece of mind to listen relate and understand but you most definately shouldn't harbor your concerns, doubts and fears--holding it over a brothers head and using it as an excuse not to get closer.
now see i guess i am with the fellas you are talking about, i want to get married in my mid 30's, but the problem is i would like to have children in my late 20's. i know you don't have to be married to have children, but ideally i would like to. i guess for me i don't want to get married until i am in my mid 30's because of trust issues and knowing too many people who got married in their 20's and ended up divorcing, but really over 50% of all marriages end in divorce regardless of what age the individuals are but i can't help but think in those specific incidences that i am aware of that their age was a major if not the prominent factor in the ultimate demise of their relationship.-so of course it discourages me.

For the most part, i feel as if i may never get married but i am okay with it. my grandparents have been togeather for 37 years and never got married but are about to due to medical issues in which they want to have that marital protection in those situations, but i can easily see myself being that way.
msprettygirl, baby, please wait until you get married before you have a kid. Don't pay any attention to statistics--yeah, I know the divorce rate is over 50% but you also have to realize that some of those people have been divorced two or three times.

Hmmmm, okay, that didn't make matters any better...okay, forget what I said... bang

Anyway, there are some good brothers out there, prettygirl. You have to just give it time--you're still young.
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Originally posted by msprettygirl:
now see i guess i am with the fellas you are talking about, i want to get married in my mid 30's, but the problem is i would like to have children in my late 20's. i know you don't have to be married to have children, but ideally i would like to. i guess for me i don't want to get married until i am in my mid 30's because of trust issues and knowing too many people who got married in their 20's and ended up divorcing, but really over 50% of all marriages end in divorce regardless of what age the individuals are but i can't help but think in those specific incidences that i am aware of that their age was a major if not the prominent factor in the ultimate demise of their relationship.-so of course it discourages me.

For the most part, i feel as if i may never get married but i am okay with it. my grandparents have been togeather for 37 years and never got married but are about to due to medical issues in which they want to have that marital protection in those situations, but i can easily see myself being that way.


Yes i agree with Iron.........

I do know that me getting married, probably wont happen anytime soon........i guess im just preparing myself.

But i cant see bringing a child in this world unless im married. Times are hard....and i would like to be able to give my child a fighting chance.
I am not going to purposely go out and have a baby before i get married but i am not gonna beat myself up over it if it happens, no matter how careful i am i know mistakes happen. Really what i meant to say is i don't know that i will be married for sure - i may never get married and i am okay with that, but i know for sure i want to have children and i can't see not one day being a mother despite my not being a wife.
Dear qty226,
There are many reasons why brothers are waiting longer to get married. Some reasons may include the need or the sense of the need to get their financial status in order while others are activately involved in pursuing and establishing their professional careers in order to prepare for establishing a family. As you know, these desirable endeavors take a considerable amount of time and effort. For instance, I am 31 and not married. Why? Because, one, I am currently finishing up the second year of a 4 year residency in Pathology. So, I personally do not feel like I am ready to prepare for a marriage. It is true I could get married now but most ladies of my age and educational status want the whole shebang which admittedly so is rather daunting to say the least. Besides, I am trying to straighten up my credit as would any sound-minded man or woman would do at this point in time.
Eventually and hopefully, I will get married. When? As discussed with my current girlfriend, it seems it might happen in the next year and a half or so, again depending on our joint state of affairs.
Other reasons why men are delaying marriage include waiting for the right lady to come along and just not wanted to get married at all. Reasons for the latter may stem from bad previous experiences with marriages in the past which I can attest to. After stupidly and blindly "marrying" twice out of "stupid compassion" in the name of assisting with green application, it finally hit me that I did not have to get married in the name of stupid compassion or feelings of surviors' guilt of some form after the second marriage which ended rather badly in 2004. Such experiences just seems to leave a bad taste in one's mouth akin to the cow urine I was forced to drink during my sick days in Nigeria. But now, I am over that....i just decided not venture the maotherland for suitable brides..."Twice bitten, (really) three time shy".

But qty226, I think it will happen for you. It ususally does once you stop looking but at the same time ask for it in prayers etc or wish for yourself or try ehormony.com...you never know.

Felix

PS: Nice pic, qty226.
quote:
Some reasons may include the need or the sense of the need to get their financial status in order while others are activately involved in pursuing and establishing their professional careers in order to prepare for establishing a family. As you know, these desirable endeavors take a considerable amount of time and effort.


I'm glad you said this, folobatuyi, because no one would have believed it coming from me--I'm an arrogant asshole. You would think sisters would appreciate a brother that has sense enough not to get married before they're ready.

Why get marrried, knowing you're not ready, just because you're at the age where most people are either already married or getting married? You would think a sister would appreciate a brother that knows he has to get his finances straight, complete his educational endeavors and put himself in the right frame of mind to get married before actually getting married--many of them don't.

quote:
I am 31 and not married. Why? Because, one, I am currently finishing up the second year of a 4 year residency in Pathology. So, I personally do not feel like I am ready to prepare for a marriage.


Oooh, you're wrong, folobatuyi--you talked about yourself--your accomplishments--now you're going to be labeled arrogant.
quote:
Originally posted by IRONHORSE:
quote:
Some reasons may include the need or the sense of the need to get their financial status in order while others are activately involved in pursuing and establishing their professional careers in order to prepare for establishing a family. As you know, these desirable endeavors take a considerable amount of time and effort.


I'm glad you said this, folobatuyi, because no one would have believed it coming from me--I'm an arrogant asshole. You would think sisters would appreciate a brother that has sense enough not to get married before they're ready.

Why get marrried, knowing you're not ready, just because you're at the age where most people are either already married or getting married? You would think a sister would appreciate a brother that knows he has to get his finances straight, complete his educational endeavors and put himself in the right frame of mind to get married before actually getting married--many of them don't.

quote:
I am 31 and not married. Why? Because, one, I am currently finishing up the second year of a 4 year residency in Pathology. So, I personally do not feel like I am ready to prepare for a marriage.


Oooh, you're wrong, folobatuyi--you talked about yourself--your accomplishments--now you're going to be labeled arrogant.


Oh well...Ironhorse...if I am percieved to be arrogant, oh well. As you said, folks just have to know me personally. I am not worried. I know I am not arrogant, just happy about my career and on being on here!

Felix
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Oh well...Ironhorse...if I am percieved to be arrogant, oh well. As you said, folks just have to know me personally. I am not worried. I know I am not arrogant, just happy about my career and on being on here! --Felix


I'm glad you feel that way, Felix. A lot of other people on this site, whether they're accomplished or accomplishing goals, feel like it's wrong to voice your personal endeavors on here. Chances are, more often than not, most of these suckers hate to see a person say anything about themselves because it is they that are made to feel inadequate for their accomplishments or the lack thereof.

So far, Felix, you and Kevin41 are the only two young brothers I've come across that aren't self-conscious when it comes to interacting on AA.org and I find that to be refreshing. Don't give in to that crab-hearted dogma black people impose on themselves and others because some of them don't have the drive and ambition to want to do anything, and don't want to see other blacks achieve anything of any significance either.

It's funny how biased some of these sisters are--they want to be headstrong about doing their own thing but they frown on brothers that do the same. These kinds of sisters can't have their cake and eat it too--they can't want to go as high on the educational and career ladder as they possibly can, and not want to break their stride for one minute for a brother but expect a brother to just stop in his tracks, take his eyes off of his goals and get with her just because she wants a man.

Just like my mama always says, "I didn't put myself on hold for a man to make up his mind whether he wanted to be with me or not, and you shouldn't put yourself on hold for any of these silly ass girls either when you're trying to accomplish your goals."

I love the hell outta me some sisters but I will not marry until I get my ducks in a row. When I get married I want to be two steps from buying a house so we can raise a family in a house not in an apartment. When I get married I want to be completed, if not close to completion, with my Ph.D so I won't be stressed out trying to deal with getting my marriage off of the ground while chasing professors day and night.

I want to already be settled or on my way to being settled in a well-paying career and living in the state where I want to have a family. I want to ensure that everything is accounted for to facilitate the most comfortable future within my power. Of course, God is at the top of this plan. I want to reach a point in my life where I can say I've done the best I could in being the best man, lover, friend, husband, and father I can possibly be, and live with no regrets.

You can't just get sidetracked by anybody or anything with a plan like that, Felix, and these complaining sisters know that--some of them are just short-sighted and lonely--they want a man now but don't understand the process it takes in being a man that would be the best prospective mate for them. Keep on striving, Felix.
I personally do not see a problem with people waiting until they are in their 30s to get married...but that's because I'm one of them. I want to develop myself as a human being and a women...economically, socially, spiritually,... with independent travel and life experience before I settled down and created afamily life. I feel that will put me in the best position to give more to my future husband and children. I am and was never in a hurry to get married and I never quite understood some of my female fried's obsession with settling down so early.

I'm not saying anyone on this thread is obsessed with getting married in their twenties. I just notice a lot of women like that.
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I'm not saying anyone on this thread is obsessed with getting married in their twenties. I just notice a lot of women like that. --Oshun


It isn't quite necessarily the case that there is a person in this thread that is obsessed with getting married, as it is the person not having a clear understanding of how life is for older adults.

I've always had laughed at younger people, particularly ones in their early 20's and younger, that don't have a clue about what us older people are faced with in today's society, as opposed to how we were raised back in the day, and think they can make judgements based on issues that they have no experience in.

It isn't necessarily the case that they are asking questions for clarification but indirectly expressing their disdain--not having the courage to just come out and say what's on their mind for fear of ridicule. Oh well....
quote:
Originally posted by IRONHORSE:
quote:
Oh well...Ironhorse...if I am percieved to be arrogant, oh well. As you said, folks just have to know me personally. I am not worried. I know I am not arrogant, just happy about my career and on being on here! --Felix


I'm glad you feel that way, Felix. A lot of other people on this site, whether they're accomplished or accomplishing goals, feel like it's wrong to voice your personal endeavors on here. Chances are, more often than not, most of these suckers hate to see a person say anything about themselves because it is they that are made to feel inadequate for their accomplishments or the lack thereof.

So far, Felix, you and Kevin41 are the only two young brothers I've come across that aren't self-conscious when it comes to interacting on AA.org and I find that to be refreshing. Don't give in to that crab-hearted dogma black people impose on themselves and others because some of them don't have the drive and ambition to want to do anything, and don't want to see other blacks achieve anything of any significance either.

It's funny how biased some of these sisters are--they want to be headstrong about doing their own thing but they frown on brothers that do the same. These kinds of sisters can't have their cake and eat it too--they can't want to go as high on the educational and career ladder as they possibly can, and not want to break their stride for one minute for a brother but expect a brother to just stop in his tracks, take his eyes off of his goals and get with her just because she wants a man.

Just like my mama always says, "I didn't put myself on hold for a man to make up his mind whether he wanted to be with me or not, and you shouldn't put yourself on hold for any of these silly ass girls either when you're trying to accomplish your goals."

I love the hell outta me some sisters but I will not marry until I get my ducks in a row. When I get married I want to be two steps from buying a house so we can raise a family in a house not in an apartment. When I get married I want to be completed, if not close to completion, with my Ph.D so I won't be stressed out trying to deal with getting my marriage off of the ground while chasing professors day and night.

I want to already be settled or on my way to being settled in a well-paying career and living in the state where I want to have a family. I want to ensure that everything is accounted for to facilitate the most comfortable future within my power. Of course, God is at the top of this plan. I want to reach a point in my life where I can say I've done the best I could in being the best man, lover, friend, husband, and father I can possibly be, and live with no regrets.

You can't just get sidetracked by anybody or anything with a plan like that, Felix, and these complaining sisters know that--some of them are just short-sighted and lonely--they want a man now but don't understand the process it takes in being a man that would be the best prospective mate for them. Keep on striving, Felix.


Thanks, Ironman and you too keep striving...the light at the end of the tunnel is nigh....
*Daps*

Felix, I'm always in the brothers' corner that's trying to do the right thing in the face of adversity and doing the right thing even if the right thing isn't accepted by popular opinion.

There are too few brothers out there like you and I to allow ourselves to suffer in silence and put up with the ridicule and bitterness from sisters that want to put us all on one box.
Folobatuyi...First, thanks for the compliment.....and yeah, maybe i'll try ehormony.com. lol

I understand your concerns. If a man told me that he wants to get his finances straight, complete his educational endeavors and put himself in the right frame of mind before actually getting married, then i would understand.

But i have seen a lot of brothas...string women along, not explaining their situation, and reasons for not wanting this.

But on the flip side of this........i dont think a lot of women in their early 20's want to get married. As i mentioned im a 22year old student, that wants to travel, and enjoy myself........but later i would love to get married and have children.

I think for some young women, there is a concern, because of dealing with child birth.......and although women are waiting to have children, for one reason or another.......I personally would 'like' to have them before reaching 30, or near that.

Now with this....comes reality, and although most 20 year olds are inexperienced, that doesnt mean that they dont make plans.......moving forward toward all that they want in life.
QTY,

Over the years, you and I have had hundreds of conversations. I have noticed from almost every relationship topic we have discussed is that you generalize people into categories because of your own fear. Or, you just gather information from your girlfriends based on their experiences. I am not saying it is wrong to do that, because I understand that you want to be cautious. When you do this, especially in the dating world, you eliminate the bad guys AND you eliminate a lot of potentially good men.

In order to avoid a possible let down, you will eliminate potentials in your age group. Ok, so you date older men, maybe a particular type of man--more professional. Then, what happens?!?!? You purposefully allow yourself to be selected by the bad ones knowing how they are going to turn out, so that you can prove that you were right about men. Then say that those are the types of men who come after you.

What happens next? You eliminate more men and then say there are none around.

I don't believe that this topic is truly about men waiting until their 30s so that they can play around, etc. Perhaps, you are half right, some men do enjoy the single life, as do some women.


Right now, you are trying to accomplish certain goals in your life and you want people to understand that. Sometimes they do, and from our convos, sometimes they don't, as you have said they are "demanding."

I understand you have trust issues but you make it seem like women are the only ones who have a difficult time with trust. The thing is Qty, no one's life is mapped out perfectly. It's not always graduate by 22, work, married by 25, kids by 27.

I am in my late 20s now and I would love to get married. Yet, I still have things I need to do, and it's not more women. I would like to be more financially stable and comfortable with my life. I would also like to meet the RIGHT woman for me. One that is not going to be pessimistic about my relationship with her. I would like someone who is going to put in effort and communicate instead of expecting me to read her mind and become upset with me because I cannot. I do not want a woman who says she trusts me but has deep-rooted insecurities--because when that happens, the relationship never works. You know who I am talking about because we discuss her a lot. However, she isn't the only woman like this. Many women feel that since they have been wronged by one, two, or three guys, that the next one will do the same. In order to protect herself, she will dump him, make his life miserable, and/or close herself off. Guess what? It happens to men as well.

I have been hurt by women before and I will not take it out on any other woman, date, or relationship. Although it is difficult, I try not to do that.

The point is that women can be just as bad as men. You will see when you have to protect your bro from these women. Right now, you are not ready for marriage. You are putting too much pressure on yourself and your future. When you do that, you allow yourself to meet the wrong kinds of people so that you can prove a point.

I don't mean to be harsh with you because you know i luv ya kid, but relax a bit. Because with the way you are thinking, you have already eliminated your future husband.

Just take things easy... be cautious but if you are too cautious, you will miss out.
quote:
Over the years, you and I have had hundreds of conversations. I have noticed from almost every relationship topic we have discussed is that you generalize people into categories because of your own fear. Or, you just gather information from your girlfriends based on their experiences. I am not saying it is wrong to do that, because I understand that you want to be cautious. When you do this, especially in the dating world, you eliminate the bad guys AND you eliminate a lot of potentially good men. --ronin10


That was a very good response, ronin, but I must tell you--I've also known this sister, QTY for quite a while. The same things you've said in your response are the same things I've told QTY over and over again for over 2 years--it's amazing how more and more brothers are starting to come out of the woodwork about this same sister, QTY, which lead me to this question a long time ago: Is she really this naive or is this just a front?

It's one thing if a person wonders around not knowing the truth, it's quite another when a person is told the truth over and over yet the person still cries wolf. Don't fall for the puppy dog eyes and the chocolate barbie doll face--QTY is very intelligent and the pieces just don't fit when brother after brother has told her the truth about dating and relationships over and over yet she still seems to be in the mode of searching for the right answer.

The bottom line is she needs to grow up and grow away from being so self-absorbed, and sociologically out of touch or she will continue to go through life being emotionally inaccessible and elusive--setting men up for failure and eliminating them so she can once again prove that men ain't shit, and she can, once again, sing that melodramatic tune, "I'm a good woman and some day my prince will come."
I hear you Ironhorse. I think, in QTY's case, she is just not ready for dating/serious dating/relationship. You are right, when she gets older, she will be ready. QTY is young and should concentrate on her school and career. In a few years, she may view men differently. Perhaps she will realize that not all men are about jumping around from woman to woman.
Change your attitude about marriage.

Why do people claim they want to "do everything" before getting married as if to prepare for marriage is to prepare for death? Perhaps this is why the divorce rate among Americans is so high. America is undeniably pro-single and anti-Family. Americans are so convinced that a marriage and children = NO LIFE that they find themselves running around in haste trying to get "everything done" before their "life ends." Its no wonder that so many people are unhappy in their marriages and find their marriages boring and unexciting. The reason is because before they say "I do," they want to be able to say, "I've done it (all)." I've got a question for the forum then, once you do get married, what exactly do you plan to do with your spouse and children? Just sit on your asses and think about the "great life" you had before marrying? Have you all ever heard of family vacations, which in my opinion, can be alot more fun than vacationing alone Confused.

The Lost of the Traditional Family and Its Implications

Another problem is that women in particular are deferring marriage because they are being heavily recruited by the workforce, pulling them farther and farther away from the home. In no other time in history have we seen more women working outside the home. Presently, women earn more their husbands, brothers, and fathers. Rather than being a potential mate, women have become the men's workforce competition. Consequently, women have less time to contemplate marriage. Black women in particular have no incentive to get married, especially since, black men have little to nothing to contribute toward a marriage financially. As a result, the thought of a marriage and a husband have become a burden to women rather than something that they can ultimately look forward to. For black women, finding a mate that can match their success is proving to be impossible. Some black women have already explored the prospect of marrying foreign men, marrying white men, and even the advantages of "Man-Sharing," that is, sharing one successful black man. "Man-Sharing," which in the past, was frowned upon, is now being seriously considered as a solution. American women in general are experiencing difficulty dealing with wanting to be a power player in the workforce but also desiring to secure the traditional role of "mother" in the home.

Plenty of Degrees, No Job

A final problem is the incredibly easy access to "college degrees" (online and traditional) compared to America's available positions. When sisters do find brothers with college degrees, despite their credentials, they still complain about not being accepted into the workforce. I recently met a brother who is 38, graduated from the University of Maryland with a B.S. in Economics when he was 24 years old, but has been working as a taxi cab driver for the last 15 years. His reason for not finding suitable employment, pursuing graduate studies, or improving his skills??? He's trying to "master himself."
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Rowe, I understand what you're saying, nevertheless, this view is from a woman's perspective. As far as this brother with the economics degree and still floudering--I'm going to be honest--the brother is lazy complacent.

When I saw my career as a graphic artist going nowhere (it was boring and had few opportunities for advancement and reward), I switched into the education field. Now, my next step is to obtain a PhD. The point is, I've switched careers twice and never lost a beat--I've been productive ever since I've graduated from undergrad, picked up my masters and stepping toward a post-graduate program. The point is, some of us brothers know how to adapt in the face of adversity.

In my case, and the cases of a few other brothers, I would rather accomplish as much of my goals as possible before I marry. My finances will be in order, my education will be behind me, and I will be well on my way to a higher paying career. Why is this so important? Because when I do take vacations with my wife and children, we will be able to go to more pleasurable vacation spots and stay there longer.

We will be able to afford for our children to be involved in various extra-curricular activities. We will be able to afford a home that will be better suited to a family and be able to afford the mortgage, utitilies, family healthcare, and other living expenses without being in fear of losing the home due to unstable employment or have to feed my family with sub-standard food just to survive. These things are too important to me just to get by on love alone.

Just recently, a young family (relatives) had to move out of a home they had only lived in for a few years because they didn't properly plan their future. Imagine being newlyweds, having two or three young children, then having to uproot them due to poor planning? That will NEVER happen to me.

As far as women being dragged into more demanding careers--hey, you can't have your cake and eat it too--with power comes responsibility. If a woman wants to persue the type of career that will pull her away from her desires of marriage and family then that is what they must do. Men have been faced with that same problem for years--it's a double-edged sword.

Men, and women in particular, have been conditioned into believing that the success and happiness of the family lies upon the backs of men, which is one of the reasons why there was so much disfunction in families and the life expectancy of married men was so short during the 50's, 60's, and much of the 70's.

Now that women are begining to take up the slack of the responsibilities of raising a family in the financial sector or being the sole provider altogether, the responsibility of putting more time into success of a career is coming along with the success of having a higher-paying career.
Ronin10

Yes, you and I have had several conversations concerning dating.

I expressed to you what my issues were. I was a soph/jr in college, 20 years old, taking 6 classes a semester, and it was hard for me. I spent long hours at the library, etc.......I had no social life. It was hard for me to do both, relationship/school.....I never complained, or held a man responsible for this. If the men I encountered didnt understand this........I had to move on.

Im doing this NOW.......because I dont want to do this, in my 30's...........and although I know that life is never perfect, it still doesnt mean that I cant make plans, concerning my life.....and WHERE i want to be, at a certain age.

About trust.....

A lot of women have issues concerning trust. Your girl friend now, as you mentioned, has been "wronged" by several men.

Why do we tell these women, that they should've made better choices concerning men.... "But trust ME, because im a nice guy". How are we (women) suppose to know that?

I have learned that if a man behaves a certain way (loves to run the streets), have several women, several children by different women, complain that he cant pay his bills, always complaining, etc........I move out of his way. Why should i stay around and wait for a ton of bricks to hit me in the head?

Why shouldnt I look at what my girl friends are going through, and make sure that i dont follow the same path?

You also mentioned

"I am in my late 20s now and I would love to get married. Yet, I still have things I need to do, and it's not more women. I would like to be more financially stable and comfortable with my life."

Did you tell your girl friend this?

So should 'I' wait around for a man, that feels this way? Why cant 'we' do this together? Its not like a 'man' is the only one working trying to obtain financial status.

One more point to you Ronin10, im 22 years old, and moving on to law school. I will always concentrate on my educational goals/career........I just needed to understand and learn how to manage my time/thoughts, between school/relationship.

Its getting easier, as im getting older, and able to put college behind me.



Ironhorse...

This forum was created....because I noticed that a lot of brothas (YOUR AGE) have several reasons why they arent married.

Although I 'respect' their/your reasons.....I 'move on' when they (a man in his 30's) tell me that they are "trying to get themselves together".

Im not self absorbed, or am I going to 'chase' a man..................Im just giving 'you' men the respect, of not trying to change your focus, and desires.

You dont want to get married, because of this.....so be it!! But why should I continue to 'chill' with a man, that spent his entire 20s, and now his 30's.......Just trying to get his self together? At point does this get OLD?

..........And Ironhorse, im not going to comment on the personal attacks. Lets stick to the subject, and talk about what you know..........instead of what you 'think' you know.

I hope that everyone.......reads ROWES RESPONSE!!!!!!
Let's get one thing straight, QTY--you're a broken record. When you bring up the SAME subjects and get the SAME answers, yet you feel those answers aren't good enough--you don't try the theories out for yourself since you're "too busy" to find out for yourself through personal experience, the only thing left to do is to question the motive of the person that is calling herself trying to find out the answer.

Rowe's response only addresses brothers that are lazy, complacent, and are more often the norm than the exception. More often than not, I have always come across women that want to overly discuss the norm instead of discussing the exception.

QTY, I'm not going to pretend to be self-righteous, like you're being, and not acknowledge the shortcomings that are keeping you from experiencing a truly rewarding relationship. You have this uncanny ability to ignore the raw knowledge that men have dropped on you over the years but you cling to women that subscribe to your double-standard beliefs and single-minded mentality.

This line is also a cop-out, QTY.

quote:
You dont want to get married, because of this.....so be it!! But why should I continue to 'chill' with a man, that spent his entire 20s, and now his 30's.......Just trying to get his self together? At point does this get OLD? ---QTY


You present more excuses NOT to be involved with a man than you present reasons to be involved. First you say nobody pays any attention to you because you're dark, then you say when you're at the club with your female friends the guys talk to your friends but don't talk to you. Then you say there aren't any eligible men, then you say the eligible men that do talk to you are too impatient because you're in school.

Then, you've said in the past that you don't want a bum--you want a man that's getting himself together just like you, now you want to say waiting for a man to get himself together is a waste of time. How can waiting for a brother to get himself together, when you're doing the same damn thing, be considered a waste of time if you're both in the course of dating?

It simply doesn't make sense, QTY. Your conversations over the years have lead to one conclusion: you want to go straight through college, straight through law school, expect a grown ass, accomplished man to wait for you to finish, yet you offer no emotional incentive to keep an accomplished man interested in you. Everytime you make a step forward you raise the bar two feet higher, your expectations become more and more unrealistic.

This is what you do--you run into particular brothers that aren't still trying to get their lives together--particular brothers that are doing well but you keep on expecting them to be subjected to your microscope while their romantic lives are on hold, waiting for you to accomplish your goals. Your whole state of mind is unrealistic, QTY--you don't want younger men your age--you want more accomplished, older men but you don't have the emotional, financial, or professional capacity to interact on an equal level with them--your dreams are bigger than your current capacity to bring them to reality.

It simply doesn't make sense for you, QTY, to involve yourself in conversations with women that are on a different level than you are--women that are already accomplished, having already have gone through the growing pains of being in relationships, therefore, are qualified to speak on the disparities of relationships between black men and women. You're only 22 years old, QTY. You still live at home, you haven't had one consistent relationship, you haven't even started law school yet, and you don't even have a job so you hardly qualify to make bold generalizations and hold men to unrealistic expectations when you haven't accomplished or experienced anything yourself.


Either enjoy your life as a 22-year-old female, date men your age and wait until you reach the level of being able to fairly interact romantically with more accomplished men or shut up. You can't have one without the other--you can't expect a grown ass man to indefinately wait for you, put himself on hold for you while you're free to do whatever you want, whenever you want to do it, with whomever you want to do it with, chalk your mistakes and freedoms up to being "young and inexperienced," yet if a man disapproves of this unbalanced freedom, then he's an asshole that you didn't want to be bothered with anyway because you're "leary" of men? Get outta here, QTY.

Brothers like me need to be "leary" of indecisive, flipant, immature opportunistic, self-absorbed, double-standard having females like you--this is also why more of us brothers have a tendency to marry at a later age--because we have to sift through all the garbage before we come across the right woman that is right for us.
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quote:
I have learned that if a man behaves a certain way (loves to run the streets), have several women, several children by different women, complain that he cant pay his bills, always complaining, etc........I move out of his way. Why should i stay around and wait for a ton of bricks to hit me in the head? --QTY


If this is all you've learned from dating men then you're doomed, QTY. Furthermore, what is such a high class prude of a female like you doing wasting your time dating sorry ass men like this for anyway?

I'm going to tell you the same thing you always call yourself telling me: you need to stop dating all of these ghetto ass people.

At the very least, it sounds like you make very poor choices in men. You paint such a horrible picture--this damsel in distress--like all of the black men out there ain't doing shit but running the streets, drinking and hoing, and looking for some poor, unsuspecting young girl to currupt. You keep repeating that men love to run the streets but if somebody thinks the same of you then you come up with a list of excuses as long as your arm.

Here's another piece of garbage:

quote:
Im not self absorbed, or am I going to 'chase' a man..................Im just giving 'you' men the respect, of not trying to change your focus, and desires. --QTY


You're not going to 'chase' a man but you expect men to 'chase' you all over the world wide web, leave several messages on your voicemail and still beg you to make sure you've checked your messages because you're "forgetfull?" You expect a man's full attention, keep up with his responsibilities and make sure you keep up with your responsiblities because you're "forgetfull?" In other words, every brother that may be interested in you better walk a tight line but you want all the freedom in the world to act the fool and grow up? Nah.

This statement cracks me up too:

quote:
Although I 'respect' their/your reasons.....I 'move on' when they (a man in his 30's) tell me that they are "trying to get themselves together". --QTY


First of all, what man in his 30's have you been sincerely interested in has told you that he was still trying to get his life together? Secondly, if he is trying to get his life together, what the hell right do you have to 'move on' when you don't have shit yourself? See how unrealistic you are? You're 22 years old--22-year-old men that are in the same situation you're in deserve just as much a right to be broke or getting themselves together as you do.

Thirdly, who are you to deem a man in his 30's not worth your time when all a man in his 30's has to go on, in regards to you, is the possibility of you finishing law school? Get outta here. Not only do you have to get out of law school, you have to take classes to prepare to pass the bar--you have to pass the bar. That's going to take years, QTY. Let's be real here, QTY, there's only one brother in his 30's in regards to this little scenario, and that brother in his 30's that is already successful, and accomplishing more goals at will is not going to subject himself to type of ridicule and restraint that you're requiring of him nor will any other brother of the type of caliber you think you deserve. You need to wake up and deal with what's on your plate first before you go around demanding things of older men, QTY.
Rowe's question is valid and merits further discussion. As far as I've seen, this "I'm too busy accomplishing my goals to get married" rap is either a cop-out or a lie and in either case is extremely self-centered.

Financially stable? Educationally complete? Settled in a career? That's all a BS rationalization for where one is. I have never met anyone who was being honest when they used this tired line. Rather, they were (I was) saying, "You are not (or I have not found) the person that I want to be with long-term." Period.

There is nothing better than building a life with someone. Yes, it is sometimes tough balancing a career, education and family life. But doing so builds a stronger, more balanced and enduring relationship. This is because it is being done for more than self.

Face it. The accomplishments that we pursue, in lieu of marriage, are not for the potential future other, but for ourselves.

Marriage to the "right" partner can only help one accomplish these goals.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Rowe's question is valid and merits further discussion. As far as I've seen, this "I'm too busy accomplishing my goals to get married" rap is either a cop-out or a lie and in either case is extremely self-centered.

Financially stable? Educationally complete? Settled in a career? That's all a BS rationalization for where one is. I have never met anyone who was being honest when they used this tired line. Rather, they were (I was) saying, "You are not (or I have not found) the person that I want to be with long-term." Period.

There is nothing better than building a life with someone. Yes, it is sometimes tough balancing a career, education and family life. But doing so builds a stronger, more balanced and enduring relationship. This is because it is being done for more than self.

Face it. The accomplishments that we pursue, in lieu of marriage, are not for the potential future other, but for ourselves.

Marriage to the "right" partner can only help one accomplish these goals.


It's self-centered?!?!?!?!?! WTF???? How??? Please do tell me. Right now I can't even afford a Big Mac, so why should I rush just to get married. I am not ashamed to say it, I have recently graduated and I live at home. I am looking to start my career. So, you are saying I should get married and have kids even though I can't afford them???? I would love to get married, especially with the woman I was dating. But, she has issues that would prevent a marriage from even working right now. I am hoping she can solve these issues and who knows maybe she is the one for me.

Now for the ones that say they don't want to get married and in their late 30s because they want to have fun, go argue with them. Again, don't put the ones that are truly trying to get things in order and the ones who like to play around in the same category. Don't generalize.

The funny thing is I don't know many people at all men, women, white, black, who have not been married in their 30s. Actually a lot of them are divorced.

Yeah, ok so what everyone is saying is that for women i.e. QTY it is ok for her to accomplish her goals and say she doesn't have the time. But it's not ok for me (a man) to do that same thing?!?!?!?

Seriously, I could care less about this topic because I know I do want to get married. It's just so funny and unbelievably ridiculous with all the generalizations.
Even if it is an excuse { waiting to become financially, educationallly, and professionally successful prior to getting involved}, it is a great idea; but, not as much for the man as for the woman. Too many women feel that they are trapped in a bad marriage because without their husbands they are resourceless and unable to adequately take care of their children.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by qty226:
Ronin10

Yes, you and I have had several conversations concerning dating.

I expressed to you what my issues were. I was a soph/jr in college, 20 years old, taking 6 classes a semester, and it was hard for me. I spent long hours at the library, etc.......I had no social life. It was hard for me to do both, relationship/school.....I never complained, or held a man responsible for this. If the men I encountered didnt understand this........I had to move on.

Im doing this NOW.......because I dont want to do this, in my 30's...........and although I know that life is never perfect, it still doesnt mean that I cant make plans, concerning my life.....and WHERE i want to be, at a certain age.

About trust.....

A lot of women have issues concerning trust. Your girl friend now, as you mentioned, has been "wronged" by several men.

Why do we tell these women, that they should've made better choices concerning men.... "But trust ME, because im a nice guy". How are we (women) suppose to know that?

I have learned that if a man behaves a certain way (loves to run the streets), have several women, several children by different women, complain that he cant pay his bills, always complaining, etc........I move out of his way. Why should i stay around and wait for a ton of bricks to hit me in the head?

Why shouldnt I look at what my girl friends are going through, and make sure that i dont follow the same path?

You also mentioned

"I am in my late 20s now and I would love to get married. Yet, I still have things I need to do, and it's not more women. I would like to be more financially stable and comfortable with my life."

Did you tell your girl friend this?



[QUOTE]

Actually, I did tell her this. Maybe we are getting our definitions of being comfortable and financially stable mixed up. You know I definitely do not want to get married while living at home with my parents. That is what I mean by financially stable. After I am able to start my career, I would like to meet a woman who does not treat me like sht because she was wronged by other men. I don't deserve that and I won't put up with it, just like you won't put up with bad men.

If I am not being treated right, why should I marry the person???? I am not talking about my X-GF. Perhaps, I would like the woman to have her $ht (mentally) together as well. Because women DO like to play. But, I know what you are going to say. Women do this because men do this. Well, I haven't played a woman, and if she does this to me she is out.

Just because I am not married and I am single doesn't even mean I am going out with any women right now. Ha, most people will just say yeah right. Well, assume I am lying then, I could care less. I truly care about my life and career and I am not just going to ge married to any woman I find just to prove that I am NOT playing around. I have spent too much time in school to do that.

I just feel that there are too many different sub-topics in this discussion. We are all probably not talking about the same things. Are we talking about men not getting married because they want to play around and use the "financially stable" excuse? Are we discussing reasons why people are single in their late 30s? Or, are we discussing how all men are liars? Oh well.
Ironhorse...

First let me say, that you have a way of side stepping the issue.....when you are either pissed off at a person, or you need to 'feel better' about what you are hearing/reading.

The comments you made about me being 22, finishing college, law school, and passing the bar......means what? That i shouldnt have a decent man in my life........one who is accomplished, one who has done well, because of the choices that hes made? Gimmie a break!!

But its ok, for you to tell a 22 year old, that YOU are not ready for marriage, because you are not financially sound, and youre still in school?.........and wait you are how old 35?



Lets get off of my personal life, because i have no intention of paying you any mind.

The bottom line is that you are much older, never married, and probably will never have the opportunity, because you cant seem to behave yourself!! Stop it already!!

We have discussed several issues, such as dark skinned sistas, men that are bums, etc.......on other forums, and instead of creating a forum, concerning some of these issues..........YOU want everyone to read what YOUR thoughts are, without explaining the ENTIRE story.

So until you create a forum concerning these matters.......i'll put you on MUTE!! *smh*

Now back to the subject matter...


I agree with all here, that believes this is a 'line'.

My objective is not to disrespect the men, that are trying to get their 'act' together, or have made changes in their lives.

But for every man that says this.......there are thousands that lie about this fact.

The truth is.......a lot of men will never be financially sound, and will need the help of their mates, to have a strong financial platform.

If im willing to date and eventually marry a man, not based on what he has fiancially.......but my love for him........If im willing to work, so that we can build 'together', then that should be our foundation.

Rowes comments were on point........!!
quote:
Originally posted by ronin10:
I am not ashamed to say it, I have recently graduated and I live at home. I am looking to start my career. So, you are saying I should get married and have kids even though I can't afford them????


No one has suggested that people not use their common sense Ronin. To be fair, preparing for a family is quite different for men than it is for women. Although women have been fully integrated into the workforce, interestingly enough, many women still think that men should be the "breadwinner" of the home. The problem is becoming a breadwinner in America, especially for black men, is no easy task. It takes time and an endless amount of perserverance. Therefore these arguments do not apply to Ronin or any other individual who has recently graduated from college and is still dependent upon his or her parents for survival. These arguments are directed towards the men (and women) who feel compelled to accomplish EVERYTHING before they settle down. In my view, some of these expectations are unrealistic and niave. As someone has already mentioned, there are plenty of people who have successfully completed graduate studies with the assistance of their spouse, which has only helped them to reach their goals in less time. I'm suggesting that we move away from an individualistic, "I Need To Do It Alone" frame of mind. Its unfortunate that this culture encourages us to be selfish with our time and companionship. We need to stop viewing human companionship and love as something that will slow down or prevent us from making accomplishments. Rather, we should view companionship as an advantage, something that can only support and help us to be better human beings.
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quote:
Rowe's question is valid and merits further discussion.--Kweli


There is nothing so valid about Rowe's discussion that warrants any further ramblings, especially by you, Kweli, due to the fact that the general populuous she's directing this discussion towards, more likely than not, does not fit the criteria of the essence of her discussion.

It's funny how sisters gang up on certain discussions written by men that they may consider to be female-bashing discussions, "Why is it when you men talk about women you always refer to us as bitches and ho's and......" but they want to have just as much freedom of expression to generalize and trample all over black men, but, oh, wait--it's okay for sisters to male-bash us because they outnumber us, which means we can't effectively meet the their matrimonial needs/ain't no damn good/can't get a job/can't be trusted--get the fuck outta here.

Evidently, Kweli4real, you didn't read my response as to why I feel it's necessary to complete as many goals as possible before marriage or you wouldn't have made this bullshit statement:

quote:
As far as I've seen, this "I'm too busy accomplishing my goals to get married" rap is either a cop-out or a lie and in either case is extremely self-centered.--Kweli


You sound like a damn fool--going to gradschool full-time and maintaining a full-time career is enough in itself, and trying to maintain a relationship with someone that doesn't understand what you're going through adds that much more stress and strain--mariage, a wife and kids would be out of the damn question. If you want to get married and try to raise a family while you're in gradschool full-time and working full-time then be my guest but I'm not going to kill myself. That's just too damn much multi-tasking and your marriage and family suffers for it in the process.

It's short-sighted, small-minded thinking like this that is the reason why we, as race, are so far behind the rest of America:

quote:
Financially stable? Educationally complete? Settled in a career? That's all a BS rationalization for where one is.--Kweli


What kind of bullshit rationalization do you think one has to have in order to have a successful marriage and successfully raise a family? A pot of gold at the other end of the rainbow? A certain number of proof of purchase seals from your favorite boxes of cereal? Wishes to the tooth fairy?

There used to be a time when a black man with a strong back and rough hands could get a well-paying factory job with no skills or credentials, get married and raise a family and live happily ever after. Those days are gone, Kweli.

If you want to get mad at somebody for being "self-centered" you need to get mad at the brothers that are already accomplished--brothers that are already working jobs with lucrative salaries, have already purchased a nice home, and have obtained all of the education they are going to obtain, and in their late 30's, yet they're still running around like children in a candy store dodging marriage like it's a desease--indulging themselves. Those idiots need a swift kick in the ass.

This is also an idealistic bunch of bullshit:

quote:
There is nothing better than building a life with someone. Yes, it is sometimes tough balancing a career, education and family life. But doing so builds a stronger, more balanced and enduring relationship. --Kweli


Completing educational endeavors, especially at the graduate and post-graduate level takes such a short time compared to the time one could spend in a marriage. It may take only 2 to 4 years to complete graduate or post-graduate work but you could be married to someone for 20, 30 or maybe 40 years.

Marrying someone before or during the time of accomplishing short-term goals will not ensure the success of a marriage, and I can assure you, once you do get married there will be plenty of time to build an enduring, more balanced, stronger relationship. Some people may want to be married and balance a career and educational endeavors, some may want to finish their short-term goals first before marriage--who the hell are you, Kweli, to determine that the people who choose the latter are "self-centered" or "lying" or using it as a "cop-out?"

When you talk about issues like this, Kweli, it's best to localize topics like this to what you can or can't deal with and leave it at that instead of making ignorant generalizations.

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