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You see what you fail to realize, its not the fact of being open about your sexuality, im talking as a young black man ,there is a huge increase of lesbians, bisexuals in the black community,ask the black people that you know, about this yes some more may be coming out of the closet , but the majority of this activity is basically fads, that are popular amoungs teens and young adults in the black community, as well as those frustrated sistas that have given up on black men, maybe you should talk to black people you know and get some feeed back before you overgeneralize this as just being open about your sexuality,

"I AM BECAUSE WE ARE"
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:

Was it Arnold Swartzneger who said, "Gay marriage should be between a man and a woman"?


LOL! That sounds like GWB, or even his mentor in linguistics - Dan Quayle. brosmile


There is no passion to be found playing small, in settling for a life
that is less than the one you are capable of living. - Mandela
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:

Was it Arnold Swartzneger who said, "Gay marriage should be between a man and a woman"?


LOL! That sounds like GWB, or even his mentor in linguistics - Dan Quayle. brosmile



Rumsfeld world's best language-mangler

Last Updated Tue, 02 Dec 2003 13:11:37

LONDON - U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has emerged the "clear" winner for a British award given to the worst mangler of the English language.

The Plain English Campaign has handed Rumsfeld this year's "Foot in Mouth" prize for statements he made about the hunt for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. The campaign strives to have public information delivered in straightforward English.

Rumsfeld's mangled message?

"Reports that say something hasn't happened are interesting to me, because as we know, there are known unknowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns "” the ones we don't know we don't know."

"We think we know what he means. But we don't know if we really know," said John Lister, spokesman for the campaign.

The campaign says Rumsfeld beat out actor-turned-politician Arnold Schwarzenegger, whose contribution was: "I think that gay marriage is something that should be between a man and a woman." rotflmao

snip---------------------------------------

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/12/02/Rumsfeld_031202

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[This message was edited by ricardomath on December 11, 2003 at 06:35 PM.]
quote:
Ricardomath:
I'm not sure what you mean by the "lifestyle" becoming more popular. If all that you mean is that black lesbians (along with gay black men, and all gays for that matter) are being more open, and leaving the closet in record numbers, I would agree.

That is a positive development


Very true. Besides which, bringing the fact of homosexuality into the discussion is a distraction at best. Gays and lesbians are the not the source of issues in the straight dating community. Saying they are is just another way of shifting the blame to one group to make another look guiltless. It doesn't work for men vs women, and it doesn't work here either.

Besides, if the lesbian "fad" idea was true, wouldn't that be taking pressure off the men and making finding a mate that much easier for women?
Not neccessarily. For one thing, it doesn't take the pressure off of men who want a realtionship with women. To some men, lesbians are more competitors to men.

It's not pressure to men who are already involved (dating, engaged or married), but for the ne'er-do-well ruffneck wannabes who are aspiring to be the next player, that's another story.
what u mean taking pressure off of men making finding a mate easier for women. I only brought up the gay and lesbian lifestyle as an example , read the whole text, im saying the relationship between black men is in such bad shape alot of women go to other women for comfort, not that they are necessarily more attracted to women , they just feel like the women have more of an understanding, its much larger than , dating and finding a mate!!! Its about FAMILY, and the destruction their of, we ae not talking about us as individuals here its a collective a community and we have children who are thrown into the middle of this mess> Not to put the blame of homosexuality on just the sista, but the same thing is happeing with the brothers, and the down lo brothers , its deeper than a dating pool.

"I AM BECAUSE WE ARE"
Knowledgeseeker,
I completely agree with you that black people need to stop this horrible back and forth arguing over who is more at fault for the problems within black relationships and our communities. Using statistics, articles, stereotypes and assumptions to continuously point fingers at each other.
This crap is seeping into children's interactions and responses to one another. I hear boys in junior high talking about bitches and hos, how girls ain't good but for one thing so don't try to have any type of actual relationship, and how girls only want boys for whatever money and clothes they can get out of them. I hear girls talking about how they don't ever want to get married because all men are triflin and unreliable, but they want so and so's baby cuz it'll be cute, and they'll date so and so cuz they have a nice car or clothes. At age thirteen they do not come up with this stuff on their own.
We need to stop focusing on the negative and generalizing those things to our entire community. Instead of pointing fingers, we need to celebrate the positive and look for solutions. We need to stop getting all hyped up over articles like those in Newsweek.

Knowledgeseeker, just my own personal opinion, I do not think homosexuality is a crime or deviant behavior, so it can't be blamed on either sistas or brothas because it is nothing wrong and those individuals are just being who they are.
I do not connect female homosexuality with the rise of feminism either. I agree with RicardoMath that lesbian and bisexual women (along with men) have always ben around, and that after some of the cultural changes brought about by the Black Freedom Movement and the feminist agenda, they simply felt more at ease coming out.
You seem to be trying to lead somewhere with all of your questions. Why don't you tell what your responses are to them? Smile
quote:
Melantha:
We need to stop focusing on the negative and generalizing those things to our entire community. Instead of pointing fingers, we need to celebrate the positive and look for solutions. We need to stop getting all hyped up over articles like those in Newsweek.



I think we were speaking on two different levels. When I got into this discussion it was because some posters were still playing the blame game, even after several of us noted (repeatedly) that there are explanations for the situation that don't pit men against women. Your position is a bit different from that; you are talking about solutions, and that's not something that was addressed before.

I disagree with those who think the statistics are just numbers because they do reflect the reality and explain a lot of the behavior we see, so ignoring them won't help us either. But I am in full agreement that a progressive discussion must be bigger than just a dissection of those numbers. Acknowledging that there's a problem is only the first step toward a solution.
check out the rebuttal to this article. what are your thoughts?



Why Good, Black Women REALLY End Up Alone: A Guide For the Confused
(Response to essay by Joy Jones)
by Jamal Sharif


A friend recently forwarded me the article "Why Are Black Women Scaring Off Their Men," written by Joy Jones. Although the article appeared over seven years ago in The Washington Post, the topic remains on the hotbed of debate, even today. In her article, Ms. Jones attempts to explain why many educated, intelligent, attractive black woman end up alone, despite their seemingly well-rounded qualifications. Jones begins her article declaring-

"Have you met this woman? She has a good job, works hard, earns a good salary. She went to college, got her master's degree; she is intelligent. She is personable, articulate well-read, interested in everybody and everything. ..Yet, she is single."

In taking a good, hard look at herself - and other smart, successful women like her - she surmises that her fate is due to the fact that we independent sisters are "out of touch with our feminine center, and therefore out of touch with our men." Jones' personal solution involves learning how to stop "competing with black men and to collaborate with them." After reading this article, many brothers, and some sisters too, will stand up and shout Amen.

But hold on, ya'll - not so fast. This piece may be crafted well enough to fool those who believe there is one simple explanation for the turbulence that surrounds Black love, but it just ˜aint so. If the prosecution has rested, let the defense take the stand.

Personally, Jones' article is disturbing. The type of woman Joy Jones describes represents an extreme group, and their problems, by no means represent those that face the majority of worthy, professional black women out there today. What is even more unsettling is that this article, which was undoubtedly viewed by white folks, gives a superficial, one-dimensional aspect of an issue that has many dynamics and complexities. The article gives way to African-American stereotypes that Caucasians buy into so quickly - that black woman are overbearing, domineering and unloving, and that black men are weak and lacking; their egos so easily threatened their women's assertive, confident behavior. Jones' article fails to pay homage to the variety of equally important issues that, do indeed, contribute to many black women ending up alone.

By Jones' own descriptions, the type of women who are "scaring off their men" are self-absorbed, overly-ambitious, and ultimately, clueless. They have become obsessively involved in the church, the community, or their careers in the hopes that these activities will fill the void that is present in their lives. Jones adds that these women also "downplay, denigrate, or simply forget our more traditional feminine attributes" while going about their daily lives.

Well, alright. I can certainly understand why they don't have a man. These women have other underlying issues that prevent them from being able to participate in a healthy love relationship. They don't need a man, they need therapy. Quick. I can assure you, a healthy, balanced sister faces an entirely different dilemma.

As part of my opening argument, I'd like to begin with this. There is no simple formula for why black women often find themselves without a mate. I will be the first to admit that, as women, we are sometimes the creators of our own pain. Too often, we rush into relationships, making poor and unhealthy choices, and wind up being hurt as a result. We then become a victim of our own A.S.S. - Angry Sista Syndrome - and begin blaming ourselves and others for our heartache. We begin to judge all men by the less than desirable ones we've encountered in our past, spewing venom about the evils of all black men, seldom disposing of the baggage we seem determined to drag from one relationship to the next. A lot of us don't take the time to extract the valuable lessons we need to learn, never analyzing or taking responsibility for our part. Or sometimes, we begin to doubt ourselves, leading to our declarations that we must not be smart enough, thin enough, pretty enough, or, ahem - feminine enough. All of us, at some point in our lives, have been faced with these issues, myself included. Still, for those women who have slain their internal demons, and have learned to become the confident, secure, intelligent, and aspiring black women that God intended us to be - Ms. Jones' article ˜aint worth the paper on which it's printed.

Case in point. Jones feels that many black women "have yet to discover that the skills that make one successful in the church, community, or workplace are not the skills that make one successful in a relationship." Really? What black woman alive doesn't know this? If she exists, please find her. She needs to be encased in glass and put on display, for she is a rare specimen in the history of black womanhood. Sisters have been hustling at the office and taking care of our men, concurrently and correctly, for years. Black women have the uncanny ability to do it all.. Good sisters are well aware that while assertiveness and organizational skills are needed at the office, the tender, loving approach works better at home. I have yet to meet the woman who has not mastered, early one, which skills are needed in the corporate world to satisfy THE man, and which ones are needed to please HER man. Jones' also adds that working, professional women are often "too busy to prepare him a home-cooked meal." What she forgets to mention is, while many of us delight in preparing such meals, a significant number of brothers forget to come home and eat it.

Okay, order in the court.

I hereby admit into evidence, Exhibit Number One. And you brothers - listen up:

We can be damn good women. But first, you've got to be a damn good man.

Love, respect, and admiration from a black woman is something that must be earned. We no longer give it to you, simply for showing up. We want what we're entitled to, and we want it up front. Black women have deposited years of struggle, hope, tears, and disappointment into loving black men, and by now I had hoped we'd earned a little credit. So for pete's sake, cut us some slack.

The modern-day sister is in need of the same understanding and compassion that black men have been begging us for all these years. Black women have fallen victim to the same injustices brothers' have. We've worked hard to do for ourselves. Today, we can make choices that determine the quality of our lives, unlike our great-grandmothers, who could sometimes aspire to do nothing greater than clean toilets, look after white folks' kids, or work in factories. We have busted our butts in the professional world, having to prove twenty times over that we are intelligent, capable, and deserve to be taken seriously. We have pursued education and community activism in the desire to better ourselves and our people. Yet, Jones' relays that:

Many modern women are so independent, so self-sufficient, so committed to the cause, to the church, to career....that their entire personalities project an "I don't need a man" message. So they end up without one.

Really? I do not know of one heterosexual, black woman - not one- who expresses that she has no desire for a positive, righteous brother in her life. Take note, Ms. Jones. At present, I am alone. However, I am alone by choice, and not due to any deficiency on my behalf. Of course, I desire a man. But not just ANY man. And herein, lies the problem.

Like Jones, I am college-educated, well-read, and intelligent. I've been told that I exceed the average level of attractiveness. I'm witty, personable, and interesting, and I have a healthy sense of humor. I'm 100 percent in tune with my feminine side. I have no problem catering to a man, I can flirt without shame, and I can summon every feminine wile from the depths of my God-given, beautiful black womanly soul and use them at the blink of an eye. I know how to make a man feel like a king. Sadly enough, most men never learn of my treasures. Can anyone guess why?

Enter Defense Exhibit Number Two.

Intelligent, confident, and secure black women have been labeled as "high maintenance," and it's true. We are extremely selective, and we don't lavish a man with our gifts until we are convinced he deserves them. We are more challenging, we require more time, effort, and creativity. Quite often, we end up "alone" because a brother will choose a woman who doesn't require much from him; and he settles for what is easy and convenient. And brothers, just admit it - some of you simply don't want to work that hard. You want the benefits of having a Mercedes, by putting forth the effort required of a Yugo.

Many brothers want the perks without the responsibilities. They don't want to take the time to cultivate the basics that must be established before any workable, mature rewarding relationship can grow. Some of them ARE just out for one thing. They are the ones so enthralled in trying to see the curve of our behind, they hardly notice that we can construct a compound sentence. In her article, Joy Jones says that "an interested man may be attracted but he soon discovers that this sister makes very little space for him in her life." Well, if the "interested man" is anything like the type described above, she's right - we ˜aint got time. But instead of blaming us, perhaps that brother should take a closer look at himself.

And so, the good sisters wait. Instead of bemoaning the fact that we don't have a worthy man in our lives (believe me, the less than desirable ones are always present), we are content with volunteering our time to the community or the church in order to keep our lives meaningful and well-rounded - an asset a righteous man will admire, when one eventually rolls around our way. And he will. Secure black women, who aren't desperate, don't feel the need to throw themselves at any ole' thing that comes sauntering along. We know that finding a good man takes time, just as it took time for us to become the beautiful, strong, sexy women we are now.

I do, regrettably admit into evidence, Defense Exhibit Number Three. Some black women have contributed, in part, to our men's behavior. Black women have been famous for hanging on through the years, accepting sub-standard behavior, and willing to be the easy win. In turn, brothers have learned to count on it. When we make that change, and begin to expect what we rightfully deserve, we're seen as bitchy, difficult, and unloving. Black men don't want to deal with our "attitude."

To that, I say shame. Shame on brothers who say that we don't know how to love them, and shame on Joy Jones for trying to make us believe it. Shame on black men who benefit from the sacrifices sisters make, only to tell us it isn't enough. Shame on brothers who take part in the mistreatment of black women, and then deny any responsibility when they are faced with the results of it. Black men- it's time to own up. We know all about the conversations you have with your friends, highlighting how you "get over" on us. We've been lied to, cheated on, put down, smacked up, and thrown aside. Forgive us for being tired of it.

Brothers, have compassion for the black woman who is more difficult than you'd like her to be. Sit with her and really listen; she has a story to tell. She has been hurt. She has made her mistakes, and she has suffered from the mistakes of brothers who hadn't yet grown up when they met her. I'm sure there is a sister out there (or two or three or four) who has been affected by some of your mess, too. Do you care? Do you simply want to take from her whatever she's willing to give, ready to bail when things get hard or when it's time for you to reciprocate? Or do you want to be part of the solution, be willing to admit your own mistakes, and stand side by side with a black woman, toward a better future? The choice is yours. And the result, good or bad, is yours too.

I believe black men and women want to love each other, and I believe we can. We both must realize that a relationship is based on a mutual atmosphere of give and take, trust, and respect. We must appreciate and accept our various personality traits, which are also bound to affect any union. Both partners must be willing to sacrifice in favor of what's good for the relationship, not for the individual. And, if the goal is to work together, we need to look deeper than Joy Jones' article to find realistic solutions.

Contemporary sisters can't, and won't, do it alone. Brothers, when you're up to it, we're always ready to meet you halfway. You know a sista will work with you. Help us prove that when it comes to loving a black woman, there's nothing to be "scared" of. Besides, the good black men don't scare so easily.

Case dismissed.

[This message was edited by thelawofMAAT on December 12, 2003 at 08:34 AM.]
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
IMMORTAL:
"...I am sooo tired of cringing and shaking my head every time one of these fools embarrasses us on the news. They aren't being raised right, they aren't being educated, they identify with hoodems no matter what you do, and then we throw millions of dollars at them and hope they have there heads on straight. This is supposed to be the cream of the crop, so cream in fact that most of them probably think only a blonde is "good enough" for them. SO WHY DO I GET THE FEELING THEY ARE SO FAR BENEATH ME read here


You'll see that was in reference to Kobe and his ilk, who I am disgusted with. I stand beside that statement proudly.

Nowhere in that post do I say "all black men" are beneath anyone, but the truth is, black women spend so much time and energy throwing themselves at men like that who spend all their time cheating and don't want us to begin with. And then get in trouble with the law (and remember, I mentioned incarceration rates to _exclude_ undesirable men, and you never disagreed, did you?). I _AM_ better than that, and I am tired of cringing and shaking my head. I wouldn't be here at africanamerica discussing it so vehemently otherwise. So thank you for pointing that out.


[This message was edited by djonmaila on December 09, 2003 at 05:46 PM.]

1) why do you cringe your not responsible for, or interconnected to them.
2)If that's what you say you meant I can't dispute it I'm not A telepath. But, the bit about blondes sounds like disdain to me.
I figured I throw this out there again for those who missed it. According Young African Americans Against media stereotypes, as of 2001 90% percent of married black NBA players are married to black wives. They even break down the all stars player by player. check out the whole sight, lots of good info. Click here

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Then I heard another voice say:"come out of her,my people,so that you will not share her sins,so that you will not receive her plagues, for her sins have piled up to heaven and YAH has remembered her crimes,give her back as much as she has given;pay her back double what she has done. Mix her a double portion from her own cup. Give her as much torture and grief as the glory and luxury she gave herself."(Revelations 18:4-7)
It's too late for anyone to be scared now. We alllllllll should have been scared 400 years ago, when that first boatload of Africans were forced upon that slaveship. The African and the European are like oil and water in my estimation. Gawd, what a mess!!!!!

***********
The petty bourgeoisie are the first to sell out. When they obtain status their lives generally lose both content and significance. - Black Consciousness
You know Djona, I'll be honest with you I didn't read any more than 10% of this post mostly from lack of interest in the net as a whole, and that I did read was while I was making dinner, talking with people who came in with me, or comming in late. And while I still didn't read that much I just got through reading most of yours. I say that to say, your far more the diplomat than I gave you credit for. While I do take issue with some of what you said (as your about to see) I do owe you an apology, for my preception.

DJONA:"In addition, non-blackor mixed beauty is fast replacing traditonal black beauty(any commercial these days with a "black female the days is proof of this")and has become the "new black." "

IMMORTAL:1)The non-black thing goes both ways. There are also sistas who sweat Enrique Iglasias,(sp?) Justin Timberlake, Eminem (until recently, anyway), And all those boy bands.
2)Mixed bros, and sistas aren't "the new black" Folks just aren't used to seeing them FINALLY being included. Traditionally, they've played the sidelne for not being "black enough" or "really black." It's a good thing. Instead of worrying about "them" replacing "us," maybe we all should be focusing on having our own, instead of fighting over scraps.
3)I gotta say, I see a bias here. Whenever I see folks complaining about mixed family, it always seems like sistas complaining about other sistas never the brothas. There always complaints about, Alicia Keys Mya, Claudette Ortiz, Halle,etc. Conversely, all complaints come to an end, the second Gary Dourdan, Boris, Shemar, Maxwell etc. come on the screen, and are immediately replaced with ooo's and aah's. Where's the balance?
4)Brothas are still and always be into "traditional beauty" I guess we just don't like who we are supposed to. I swear, it's like we have some kind of pre-approved list we are not aware of. If we start talking about Venus and Serena, Angela Basset, Kellita Smith, Brandy, Kelly Roland, Nona Gaye etc. Sistas (and usually dark-skinned)usually have something mean spirited to say. Or will try to find an excuse or reason to explain why you would find them attractive. Something like "y'all just like Serena cause she got a big butt." While it is true, Serena is a women of..."mythic proportions," She's just a damn, damn goodlooking women,they all are.
5)Being pro interracial shouldn't you also be pro "new black." No, you never said you weren't, but it damn sure sounded like it.

DJONA:"...half the community is already embracing multi-culturalism... Look, the inter-racial dorr is already open for the men."

IMMORTAL:Your distorting again. 45% of brothas go unmarried compared to 5.5% that marry inter-racially. So even the the "door is open" clearly the majority, like the sistas don't walk through. It's kind of nice when you think about the numbers of black folks that never get married. what folks are saying for the most part is "I want him/her and if I can't get him/her I'm good." With all the time and energy people spend complaining(and no I don't mean you in particular) can be spent trying to do something about the 45% of bros. and the 42% of sis. that never wed. Start a speed dating service. As I sit here typing I just decided I'm going to have a dinner party in the next few weeks. I'm surprised how many time s I wind up having to play matchmaker. But hey, the black family needs a good push right now.

DJONA:"...no one expects the man not to go for the dime everytime."

IMMORTAL:Again, it goes both ways. While my closest friends have always been men, most of them have benn women. And if there's one thing I noticed is in social interactions BOTH go for "the dime" in equal numbers. Come on now.

DJONA:On the other hand,thereis always pressure noy to be to picky,to settle for someone who earns less,hasn't gone to school,or is otherwise less successful."

IMMORTAL: It all depends on what your priorities are. If you went out looking for a black, educated, successful, handsome dude. and come back with a white guy, thats still settling. I mean when all is said and done, and though few will admit it. Most married people have settled in some way, shape or form.

DJONA:"The only people taking the shortage lightly at this point is the people it doesn't effect:men."

IMMORTAL:If we benefitted so greatly, than why would so many brothas dispute it? Wouldn't we be the ones distorting and exaggerating numbers, to instill some degree of panic so we could reap the rewards. That made no sense.

DJONA:"But the fact remains that no one can claim there is a women shortage due to incarceration rates, so the topic is tangential to the original discussion, and I think we are missing each other...This is about establishing the problems that we face(for whatever reason)are havinga big impct on the number of men, that we need to start kidding ourselves. So while I will nott make light of the female incarceration rates, I will not pretend that they are the root of the male shortage problem." If you want to discuss the two that's that's cool but don't confuse the two.

IMMORTAL:What do you mean by the original post? If you mean the topic of the post then I answered it already, I'm responding to you when you stated "The problem is that black women outnumber black mendue to incarceration & murder rates whch disproportionately effect young black women." And "Part of the original arguement was due to the murder and incarceration rates that effect young black men disproportionately." They are connected. The reason why WE aren't connecting is because we are discussing 2 different time frames. You are focused on the here and now. The present. I'm focusing on further down the road, the not to distant future. I got on the subject of female incarceration really to kill 2 birds with one stone. When I was in high school and just stared to become "conscience" a teacher was telling us about the slave trade. When I asked him Why was there no unity to fight a common enemy He explained that not only was there divion among tribes and regions but also disinterest. Whole regions would go for decades without ever knowing of the slave trade. And when they found out they didn't care. Till it was there time. So being that I decided early in the month thatI'm done with the net, and this topic was one of the post I was going to make people aware of, sort of ringing the alarm. So I decided to incorporateit into the discussion being that you already changed the topic to incarceration raets. And secondly, I like to know who I'm talking to. So I asked you the question(that I never got, and don't think I'm going to get an answer to) based in fact. Being that the incarceration rates of sistas is more than twice of bros. esspecially among the 18-34 age group, there'll be more sistas of that age group than bro. roughly by the end of the decade, and if that unfortunately is the are you still going to keep your look elsewhere? To try and see where your comming from(but sometimes no answer is an answere in it's self). And yes I do think the supposed man shortage is mostly hype. What I'm saying is 2.6 million isn't all that big. In most nations for most generations women usually out number men. Heck, there are almost 4mil. more white women than men, and they ain't trippin' in Brazil and Africa there's A huge difference in men to women. There's just no hysteria. Although I think no matter what the difference 1 mil. 5000,000 you'd still be complaining. You stated that the incarceration rates effect bros. (which they do) but they effect sistas of the same age group even more. It's like say "there in a dire situation. Where as WE are just still on our way to being in dire situation." You get what I'm saying? the difference between our incarceration rates and your is about Decade. They used unfair sentencing practices on us starting in the 80's where as they started in on y'all in the 90's. While 791,600(or 7.9) brothas in prison is not good It's also ALONG way from all. esspecially when you factor in men that have been there since yhe 70's and 80's serving long or lifetime bids. And if we don't find a way to slow down, stop, or reverse, these trends there will be more sistas in prison I about decade, whether you think so or not. Or as you told detroit, "everything will be alright if you just ignore it" mentality. In which case, my guess is you'll pull an about face, on your just look elsewhere and move on stance. You can take all this anyway you want to ignore type type little snide remarks in boldface and big blue letters, it doesn't matter. As for me I'm going to hook up with my little thinktank of people and se if we can't come up with something.

Hey everybody it's been real, the cyber world is nice but the real world is better. everyone stay up. Don't take most of these brotha vs. sista stuff to seriously. If you pay attention, most of these folks (especially the extreme ones)are just a small pool of people, with alot of hate in there heart an time on there hands. I got one more thing I've been meaning to put on the editorial board that I'll due sometime this week. Some of y'all (you know who)need to get out more. And wake up folks america ain't for us. Whats the point of braggin' about all these freedoms if you an't enjoying. We are heading twords a place where we'll have 90 year olds who can't vote for having a dime bag at 19.
Here's a article that illustrates what I was saying.

here


YAH BE PRAISED IN THE HIGHEST!!!

******************************
Then I heard another voice say:"come out of her,my people,so that you will not share her sins,so that you will not receive her plagues, for her sins have piled up to heaven and YAH has remembered her crimes,give her back as much as she has given;pay her back double what she has done. Mix her a double portion from her own cup. Give her as much torture and grief as the glory and luxury she gave herself."(Revelations 18:4-7)
Well i put those questions out there to spark real debate about the issues and get away from pointing the finger. As far as this homosexuality is concerned, hey two consenting adults can do whatever they want behind closed doors thats there right. But i do take acception to people who say homosexuality has not had an impact on black community,this is certainly not the case. From my experiences most gay sistas ive met or have know somewhere along the line has a real issue with men whatever it maybe , and it definitely cant be dismissed as just not being attracted to men in alot of cases. So in many instances you have women have had bad experiences with men, have children with these men and decide that she suddenly hates men and starts dating women, it would be rediculous to say that this type of mental trauma doesnt affect the child who is growing up in the mist of all of this. Then on the other hand you have brothers who are not just homosexual but alot are playing both sides of the fence, confused about if he wants to be with women or men. In many instances he is raised in a household with just women and alot of times that woman has a negative outlook or view of men.You have these brothers secretly having sexual relationships with men and turing around and giving unsuspecting women HIV, who in turn give it to the child. Now if this type of madness dont affect the community i dont know what does. Now this is not the main reason the black community is in the position it is in but compounded with all the other problems makes the situation the more devastating. But other than that single issue, discuss some of the other questions i raised the deep rooted questions about the mental condition of the black man and woman and how that affects the relationship between the too. The gay issue will always be devisive because it goes deep down into peoples ,values and moral beliefs, which guide and govern our daily lives.

"I AM BECAUSE WE ARE"
"Off topic but I deem crucial to say..
The statistics show that homosexuals are predominantly whites finding themselves in middle-class gay and lesbian community. Black gay men and lesbians are smaller in number. I will not for one second encourage Black men to practice homosexuality we already suffer every evil thing or idea at the hand of white people, we don't need more challenges trying to fit this bigoted and racist world. Peace."


I agree, but black gays are more likely to be down low, which is very dangerous for women. white gays feel more comfortable coming out with there sexuality.

[This message was edited by thelawofMAAT on December 12, 2003 at 10:52 AM.]
You know Djona, I'll be honest with you I didn't read any more than 10% of this post mostly from lack of interest in the net as a whole, and that I did read was while I was making dinner, talking with people who came in with me, or comming in late. And while I still didn't read that much I just got through reading most of yours. I say that to say, your far more the diplomat than I gave you credit for. While I do take issue with some of what you said (as your about to see) I do owe you an apology, for my preception.

OK, I'm going to break my response into chunks so I can address as much of your concerns in as reasonable a format as possible. First of all, thank you for understanding that I am not trying to start a war here. I hope that your opinion of my diplomacy is not diminished by the end of my responses.

I think I should preface the next few posts with an explanation of my angle. When I first landed on this thread, the bulk of the posts were in agreement with the laundry list of "things that are wrong with black women" and by default, that became the position I was arguing against. I see now that I was not careful enough to make clear the fact that I do not think black men as a group are undeserving of black women.


DJONA:"In addition, non-blackor mixed beauty is fast replacing traditonal black beauty(any commercial these days with a "black female the days is proof of this")and has become the "new black."

IMMORTAL:1)The non-black thing goes both ways. There are also sistas who sweat Enrique Iglasias,(sp?) Justin Timberlake, Eminem (until recently, anyway), And all those boy bands.
2)Mixed bros, and sistas aren't "the new black" Folks just aren't used to seeing them FINALLY being included. Traditionally, they've played the sidelne for not being "black enough" or "really black." It's a good thing. Instead of worrying about "them" replacing "us," maybe we all should be focusing on having our own, instead of fighting over scraps.
3)I gotta say, I see a bias here. Whenever I see folks complaining about mixed family, it always seems like sistas complaining about other sistas never the brothas. There always complaints about, Alicia Keys Mya, Claudette Ortiz, Halle,etc. Conversely, all complaints come to an end, the second Gary Dourdan, Boris, Shemar, Maxwell etc. come on the screen, and are immediately replaced with ooo's and aah's. Where's the balance?
4)Brothas are still and always be into "traditional beauty" I guess we just don't like who we are supposed to. I swear, it's like we have some kind of pre-approved list we are not aware of. If we start talking about Venus and Serena, Angela Basset, Kellita Smith, Brandy, Kelly Roland, Nona Gaye etc. Sistas (and usually dark-skinned)usually have something mean spirited to say.

I do believe that there is more of an acknowledgement (and rightly so) of our varying colors in the media recently, but there are far more examples of black families and couples in the media where the man has brown coloring and African features and hair, and the woman is pale with Euro features and wavy hair. I understand your point about Dourdan, Maxwell, and the others, but how often can you point to a dredlocked or afroed black woman (like Dourdan and Maxwell) who is considered a sex-symbol on the level of a Halle Berry, Michael Michelle, or Alicia Keys? The difference as I see it is that two "signature" black features are being removed from the media representation of the ideal black women in a way that is not done for men: black hair and black skin. The fact that every one of the women you mentioned has either a perm or a weave or both is an indication that the majority of black women understand perfectly that that aspect of our negritude is a liability and not a mark of beauty in the eyes of others. So the bottom line is that for most people, black is not beautiful on a woman. And that's why so many images of black women are now actually images of visibly mixed women, and that's why we complain. That's what I meant when I said "non-black or mixed beauty is fast replacing traditonal black beauty" when it comes to women. It's true.
DJONA:"...half the community is already embracing multi-culturalism... Look, the inter-racial dorr is already open for the men."

IMMORTAL:Your distorting again. 45% of brothas go unmarried compared to 5.5% that marry inter-racially. So even the the "door is open" clearly the majority, like the sistas don't walk through.

What I should have said is that more black men than women already have or would consider dating out, and that's why my focus was on black women. The statement I made that half are already embracing it was not meant to imply that all 100% of black men are willing to date out, but that the male "half" of our community is ahead of the female "half" in that respect. Clearly all black men are not open to it.

DJONA:"...no one expects the man not to go for the dime everytime."

IMMORTAL:Again, it goes both ways. While my closest friends have always been men, most of them have benn women. And if there's one thing I noticed is in social interactions BOTH go for "the dime" in equal numbers. Come on now.

The dime statement was made in reference to something Raheem said about women being too picky to find a mate. I was not implying that women are never choosy, just that earlier in the thread we were being blamed for being more unreasonable than black men and other women for doing the same thing they do and that that's hypocritical. My argument was and is, that women should not be belittled for going for the dime as long as men can do it guiltlessly. I said nothing about us not wanting it.
DJONA:On the other hand,thereis always pressure noy to be to picky,to settle for someone who earns less,hasn't gone to school,or is otherwise less successful."

IMMORTAL: It all depends on what your priorities are. If you went out looking for a black, educated, successful, handsome dude. and come back with a white guy, thats still settling. I mean when all is said and done, and though few will admit it. Most married people have settled in some way, shape or form.

This is my point. On the one hand, there is pressure to get the best, most successful, most attractive mate you can get. On the other hand, there is also pressure to settle for someone we might not otherwise consider. For the vast majority of black women, a white man would be settling, but that's the first point I brought up; we seem extremely reluctant to date out. That coupled with the dreaded numbers issue increase the pressure to settle for those of us who haven't found a compatible men yet.
DJONA:"The only people taking the shortage lightly at this point is the people it doesn't effect:men."

IMMORTAL:If we benefitted so greatly, than why would so many brothas dispute it? Wouldn't we be the ones distorting and exaggerating numbers, to instill some degree of panic so we could reap the rewards. That made no sense.

I have never distorted any number (even ratio we disagreed on was a number straight from the census). My thought, especially with those posters like Raheem, was that they were under the impression that I was blaming men in the same way they were blaming women. The denial for them may (and they should feel free to correct me) stem from the impression that I think the cause for the low numbers of black men is that there's something inherently wrong with black men in general, and that everything is really the men's fault. They may believe that despite the fact that I have repeatedly said that those are community issues and not gender issues.

From my perspective, when sociologists and public health scientists start noticing that there's a link between two big issues (the decline in marriage and increased out-of-wedlock births) and a low male/female ratio, we need to stop pretending that all of that can be solved by putting single black women on a diet (Raheem). I was surprised no one else jumped at that. The source issue that contributes to so many of the issues Knowledge raised (in my opinion) is also at the root of the numbers problem, and maybe I'm just hard-headed, but I don't think you can deal with the whole by ignoring any one part of it, and those numbers are a rather large part.
"I was not implying that women are never choosy, just that earlier in the thread we were being blamed for being more unreasonable than black men and other women for doing the same thing they do and that that's hypocritical."

i tell you, it's hard to be a black woman and still maintain your sanity.

I wish people would get togather and agree on which stereotype they are going to paint black women with. The stereotypes contradict eachother so much that it's almost amusing. how is it that we can be stereotyped as both setting our standards so low that we all want a thug, and at the same time too high which is why w'ere supposedly the "lonely bitter women with no man that we are right now." How can we both want a ghetto thug and at the same time not pay a man any attention unless he's banking. anyone who was being honest with themselves would see that some black women are this way and some are the opposite and others are in between the 2 polar opposites. the way i see it, we're dammed if we do, dammed if we don't. giveup even if you try your best to be the opposite of 1 stereotypes, others will come back to bite you in the ass.


another thing, i don't see how it is that black women are so much more golddigging than other women yet our incomes contribute more to the household income when we're married than any other race of women. Plus, we are more likely to marry men who make LESS money than we make than any other ethnic group. most women no matter what race marry a man making more money than them, yet black women are called golddigging if we do it.as if other women are good enough to do it but black women are so inferior that we are wrong and "golddigging" when we do it. Please, these other women supposedly "just happened" to gravitate toward men with money....go figure. bsRoll Eyes

and folks wanna claim, we're the ones setting the high expectations? If the expectations were any higher for us our bodies would be somewhere in space orbiting earth just in case any of us were stupid enough to actually try and live up to them. Confused

[This message was edited by thelawofMAAT on December 12, 2003 at 12:51 PM.]
The joke's on us. We think slavery's over; that where prison comes into play. It's hard for African females in America to maintain their sanity while their men are INSANE over European women. They've been separated from their penises, hung from trees, burned on railroad tracks, flung in rivers and NEVER GET THE MESSAGE. You see, that's INSANITY. They think she's a TROPHY; we know she's a TRAP. Consequently, their sexual years are spent in cages, performing slave labor at 12 cents per year. Prison's the true INSANE ASYLUM for the AFRICAN MALE; a system devised by folks engulfed with the epitomy of INSANITY. It's a VICIOUS cycle in which we're all ENMESHED; from which the AFRICAN MALE-IN-AMERICA is UNABLE TO COMPREHEND. That's a SEVERE LEARNING DISABILITY in my book, that leads mostly to UNTIMELY DEATHS. This country isn't for our PLEASURE, it's for THEIRS. They have a zillion ways to show ya AT OUR EXPENSE!!!

***********
The petty bourgeoisie are the first to sell out. When they obtain status their lives generally lose both content and significance. - Black Consciousness

[This message was edited by Norland on December 12, 2003 at 01:08 PM.]


[This message was edited by Norland on December 12, 2003 at 01:10 PM.]
DJONA:"But the fact remains that no one can claim there is a women shortage due to incarceration rates, so the topic is tangential to the original discussion, and I think we are missing each other...This is about establishing the problems that we face(for whatever reason)are havinga big impct on the number of men, that we need to start kidding ourselves. So while I will nott make light of the female incarceration rates, I will not pretend that they are the root of the male shortage problem." If you want to discuss the two that's that's cool but don't confuse the two.

IMMORTAL:What do you mean by the original post? If you mean the topic of the post then I answered it already, I'm responding to you when you stated "The problem is that black women outnumber black mendue to incarceration & murder rates whch disproportionately effect young black women." And "Part of the original arguement was due to the murder and incarceration rates that effect young black men disproportionately." They are connected. The reason why WE aren't connecting is because we are discussing 2 different time frames. You are focused on the here and now.


What I said was

"The problem is that black women outnumber black men starting around age 18 (or 16, I forget) due to incarceration and murder rates, which disproportionately affect young black men (you quoted me as saying ˜women') between the ages of 18 and 34."

In response to:

"Black men are MORE likely to marry within their race than any other race of men. Why do Black men receive the most criticism when most of them are doing 'exactly' what the 'critics' want them to do?? Should that over 90% number be even higher?? perfect?? Maybe blaming Blk men for every thing that is 'wrong' or 'goes wrong' in the blk community is a 'tired' way of thinking. More to the point about blk women and blk men being 'scared', how many of these blk women are overweight, have kids, or even like blk men??"

I was saying that blaming black men who marry out for the number of single black women is misleading. To say that such large percentages of women are unmarried or dateless because a small percentage of black men marry out is overlooking the fact that most of those women would be single and dateless even if 100% of black men only married/dated black.
That means that there are other drains on the black male community that have nothing to do with interracial dating.

So when you brought up female incarceration to say (correctly) that females may soon be in as much trouble as males, it really was tangential to the original argument that there is a male shortage now. And if you look at my posts, I never denied that the rates for females were skyrocketing. My point is that on the topic of why so many black women are single, saying (again, correctly) that female incarceration is on the rise is not an argument that proves the number disparity is negligible.

Basically, I said we have problem A now.

You said, we may soon have problem B.

I said, yes, we may (though I doubt B will become as bad as A), but there is still the real issue of problem A

And now you are approaching this as though I had denied problem B.

This is what I meant earlier when I said that people are approaching my argument as though I was attacking men in the way others are attacking women. This is not a contest over who will get locked up the most, it was (or should have been) a discussion about what is causing the current disparity.

For the record, in the case that female incarceration (and the related increased mortality rates that accompany higher crime risk groups) do become as prevalent a problem as male incarceration, that will certainly have a serious impact on the black community and on the sex ratio. But that hasn't happened and there are no guarantees that it will. So any discussion of future female incarceration affecting the black population more than male incarceration is speculation at this point.

Also, I saw the article I think you are refering to. Or I did see one that specifically addressed the alarming rise of bf imprisonment. Can you get me the link so I can see the numbers? I can't find it now. Again, I am not denying the numbers have shot up, I just want to read the article again because the articles I have found aren't recent enough to show that our incarceration has gone up that much.

Djon, here is an interesting article on the scyrocketing incarceration rate of bw. black women have had a 700% increase in incarceration while black men have had a 150% increase. what really gets me is that no one talks about how fast black women are being imprisoned. Leaders like jesse Jackson would rather trumpet the endangered black male than address problems concening black women. Black women have had the sharpest increase in incarceration and i haven't heard a word about this from Jesse Jackson.

black women are also targets of police brutality, but we never hear a word about it.

anyway, here are some articles.


Police shot and killed a homeless woman in Los Angeles recently, allegedly for threatening an officer with a screwdriver. The death raises questions that go beyond the conduct of the LA Police Department, according to PNS commentator Earl Ofari Hutchinson, and point to a change in attitude toward black women. Hutchinson is the author of "The Crisis in Black and Black."

LOS ANGELES -- Many called her "Mom" and describe her as sweet and harmless. She was a homeless, middle-aged, African-American woman, a familiar figure on the streets of mid-city Los Angeles.

Those who had encountered her reacted with puzzlement and outrage when Mom was gunned down by Los Angeles Police officers. Police claimed they stopped to question her about a stolen shopping cart and shot her when she threatened them with a screwdriver.

But witnesses say that the officers shot Mom as she walked away. And, even if the police account is correct, how much of a threat was a middle-aged 5-foot, one-inch woman weighing 102 pounds. Couldn't the officers have fired a warning shot? Radioed for help? Used non-lethal force such as a stun gun, tasers, rubber bullets, tear gas, pepper spray or bean bags?

Since they did not do any of these things, we must ask whether the killing of Mom was an aberration or just deadly business-as-usual for the LA police? This is the department that in the wake of the Rodney King beating became the national poster agency for police abuse.

One answer comes from the U.S. Civil Rights Commission, which recently issued a report concluding that problems of abuse still plague the LAPD and the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department. The Commission recommended appointment of an independent prosecutor to investigate police abuse.

But the slaying of Mom raises a bigger question, and a more serious concern. Her killing comes several months after Tyisha Miller, another African-American woman, was killed by Riverside police officers. This brought to five the total of African-American women shot under questionable circumstances by police officers in Los Angeles and Riverside in the past three years.

This unprecedented pattern is a harsh reminder that, for many in law enforcement, black women are increasingly regarded, like black men, as menaces to society. While much of the media instill stereotypes of black men as lazy, violent, crime-prone, and predators, black women are now typed in much the same way.

The Riverside Press-Enterprise, the city's major daily newspaper, ran a feature story branding Miller as "aggressive," "assaultive," "a possible gang member" and "mistaken for a man." This heavy dose of stereotypes about black women rests solidly on deeply ingrained myths that have had these deadly consequences:

Image assault -- the image of the sexually immoral and physically aggressive black woman puts black women at risk in law and public policy. Police, prosecutors and the courts often ignore or lightly punish rape, sexual abuse and assaults against black women.

Devalued lives -- black women are far more likely to be raped, assaulted and murdered than non-black women. They are far less likely to have the media treat crimes against them as seriously as crimes against white women.

Prison -- for the first time in American history, black women in some states are being imprisoned at nearly the same rate as white men. They are seven times more likely to be jailed than white women.

Homelessness -- the killing of Mom also spotlights the crisis of homelessness among black women. More than half the country's homeless are African-American, and African-American women make up a significant segment of that total. While the homeless receive much individual sympathy, that has not resulted in any increase in drug or alcohol programs, education, and job-training to help women such as Mom "get off the streets."

No matter what conclusion police and investigators ultimately come to regarding the slaying of Mom as long as she and other black women are typed as deviant, violent and crime-prone, they will continue to be seen and treated by many in law enforcement as the new menace to society.

http://www.pacificnews.org/jinn/stories/5.11/990525-black-women.html
Black Women Say They Are Race Profiling Targets Too July 2, 2001 Earl Ofari Hutchinson

Few could hardly have been surprised when nearly half of all black men in a recent survey said that they believed they were racially profiled by police. It is practically an article of faith among young, black males that they are more likely than whites to be stopped, frisked, spread-eagled, and arrested by the police, often on the flimsiest of charges. The issue of racial profiling of young black men has been one of the biggest items on the media and public's racial radar scope in the past couple of years. It has caused more angry tongues to wag, more fingers to point at police, and more politicians and public officials from President Bush to Attorney General John Ashcroft to wring their hands and swear they'll do something about the practice.

But none of this is really news. What was news, but glossed over, was that one out of four black women also complained in the survey that they are profiled by police. In the eyes of at least some black women, if color trumps
gender, and cops see and treat them as thugs and misfits, there's a tragic reason why.

Much of the media has burned into the public mind the stereotypes of black men as violent, crime-prone, and sexual menaces. They incessantly repeat the stats that one out of three young black men are in prison, on parole, or probation. But this obscures the reality that poor black women are also victimized by racial and gender stereotypes, criminal violence, and toss-away-the-key punitive laws. There are troubling causes and consequences of that victimization.

Devalued lives. Homicide now ranks as one of the leading causes of deaths of young black females. A black woman is ten times likelier to be raped than a white woman and slightly more likely to be the victim of domestic violence
than a white woman. The media often magnifies and sensationalizes crimes by black men against white women, and ignores or downplays crimes against black
women.

Drug menace. In 1999, Cathy Harris, a 13-year veteran senior inspector at Atlanta's International airport, told Congressional investigators, news reporters, and federal officials that Customs agents subject thousands of
black women travelers to illegal patdowns, strip searches, x-ray examinations, monitored bowel movements, unlawful detentions, and targeted monitoring by drug sniffing dogs in their search for drug traffickers. This
ignited a national furor, and tossed the ugly light on the mounting numbers of women, especially black women, arrested for illegal drug use. Nearly half of women behind bars are there for drug-related offenses. And studies show
that, unlike men, they are more likely to stay behind bars longer for these offenses.

Dangerous women: The state execution of Wanda Jean Allen in Oklahoma in February, police slayings of black women in Los Angeles, Riverside, California, and Chicago, a sharp upswing in violent crimes by women, and Hollywood films that show black women as swaggering, trash talking, gun-toting, vengeful Thelma and Louise types, have escalated public fears that black women are societal threats. This has made many prosecutors and judges even more willing, even eager, to slap black women with harsher sentences for crimes. One in four women are now imprisoned for violent crimes, and half of them are black.

Skyrocketing imprisonment: The draconian cuts by many states in welfare benefits as well as tougher eligibility requirements have shoved many black women into economic destitution, or to the streets. Racially discriminatory drug sentencing laws, biased judges and juries, media sensationalized female violence, the get tough public mood on crime and drugs, and the feminization of poverty have tripled the number of women incarcerated since the mid-1980s. Black women have swelled these numbers. They are eight times likelier to be
jailed than white women. Three out of one hundred black women are now in prison, on probation or parole. For the first time in American history black women in some states are being imprisoned at nearly the same rate as white men. And they are being jailed at even younger ages than ever. An American Bar Association study in April found that teen girls account for more than
one-quarter of the juvenile arrests, are committing more violent crimes, and are slapped back into detention centers after release faster than boys. Many of these delinquent teen girls will pack America's prisons as women. A higher percentage of these women will be black.

Many black women now think that being a woman means little or nothing to police, and that they will be treated just as harshly as black men. That's because much of the public is convinced that crime and violence no longer
comes mainly with a young black or Latino face, but with a black female face too.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson is a nationally syndicated columnist and the President of the National Alliance for Positive Action.
quote:
Originally posted by Norland:
The joke's on us. We think slavery's over; that where prison comes into play. It's hard for African females in America to maintain their sanity while their men are INSANE over European women. They've been separated from their penises, hung from trees, burned on railroad tracks, flung in rivers and NEVER GET THE MESSAGE. You see, that's INSANITY. They think she's a TROPHY; we know she's a TRAP. Consequently, their sexual years are spent in cages, performing slave labor at 12 cents per year. Prison's the true INSANE ASYLUM for the AFRICAN MALE; a system devised by folks engulfed with the epitomy of INSANITY. It's a VICIOUS cycle in which we're all ENMESHED; from which the AFRICAN MALE-IN-AMERICA is UNABLE TO COMPREHEND. That's a SEVERE LEARNING DISABILITY in my book, that leads mostly to UNTIMELY DEATHS. This country isn't for our PLEASURE, it's for THEIRS. They have a zillion ways to show ya AT OUR EXPENSE!!!

***********
The petty bourgeoisie are the first to sell out. When they obtain status their lives generally lose both content and significance. - Black Consciousness

[This message was edited by Norland on December 12, 2003 at 01:08 PM.]


[This message was edited by Norland on December 12, 2003 at 01:10 PM.]



norland, i will address your post in a little bit..I want to give you an adiquate response because there are a few things in your post that i disagree with.

peace
And yes I do think the supposed man shortage is mostly hype. What I'm saying is 2.6 million isn't all that big. In most nations for most generations women usually out number men. Heck, there are almost 4mil. more white women than men, and they ain't trippin' in Brazil and Africa there's A huge difference in men to women. There's just no hysteria. Although I think no matter what the difference 1 mil. 5000,000 you'd still be complaining.

Couple of things. How often do we hear news about Africa that isn't about the AIDS epidemic? Whatever other social problems they face are not widely reported here anyway. Secondly, ALL countries in Africa are above the US ratio for blacks.

http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph-B/peo_sex_rat_tot_pop&id=AFR

the average for the whole continent (scroll to the bottom) is 99%, which is even above the ratio for whites. Even the rates for ages 15 to 64 (click the link on the sidebar) show that the lowest ratio on the continent is Chad at 90%, and the continental ratio is still 98%. So what African shortage were you talking about?

And if you look here: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/peo_sex_rat_tot_pop/SAM

The total sex ratio for Brazil is 97%, which is considerably better than 87%, which means Brazilian women don't have much to complain about.

Thirdly, when the sex ratio is turned around and men get left out, you hear about that too. In India, some desperate men are resorting to buying their wifes from poorer communities or from abroad because the sex ratios are so skewed. Interesting that there's so much ado over it when their female/male ratio is still at 92.7% nationwide. These numbers are the result of abortions of female fetuses because males bring a family more prestige and don't cost the family a dowry at marriage:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2723513.stm
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/organizations/healthnet/gender/docs/sudha.html


This is why I find it hard to imagine that so many of us can deny the issue so easily. I made a statement that black men are outnumbered, and the response was "back it up". Fair, but when I did back it up and showed that the census did a head count that proves there are more women than men, the response was "whatever, statistics don't matter". So forgive me if I lack your blind faith that everyone is wrong but you, because there is something going on here and I'll be damned if I'm the last one to figure that out.
"1) why do you cringe your not responsible for, or interconnected to them.
2)If that's what you say you meant I can't dispute it I'm not A telepath. But, the bit about blondes sounds like disdain to me.
I figured I throw this out there again for those who missed it. According Young African Americans Against media stereotypes, as of 2001 90% percent of married black NBA players are married to black wives. They even break down the all stars player by player. check out the whole sight, lots of good info."


1) Because it bothers me to see high profile black men who have everything going for them get arrested for such nonsense. It bothers me and it lowers my estimation of them.

2)If Kobe is supposed to be the cream of the black crop and he 1) is unfaithful and 2) is in legal trouble, then he's not a great choice for any woman, and probably not even an option for a black one. It irks me that even when they get in trouble we elevate them when in reality they are just kids playing sports, some of whom can't keep out of trouble, can't keep their pants zipped, or don't want black women in the first place. Maybe the Kobe's of the world think they are too good for us, but from where I'm standing, the exact opposite is true.
"It's hard for African females in America to maintain their sanity while their men are INSANE over European women."


Norland i disagree with this because i believe no matter how many black men decide to date outside the race, it still won't change how black women are treated within this society. The social structure is the main problem. one of my friends said it best, so i will quote her.


"if every black man married to a non-black woman woke up tommorrow and decided that a black woman was the only way to go.......nothing would change! The black leadership and black agenda and the "social norms" within the black community would still remain the same. And black women would still be priortizing the needs of the community instead of their own."

in fact, i believe that worrying about who black men date and marry helps perpetuate sexist oppression of black women.

As long as the black man in an interracial relationship doesn't denegrate black women while putting white women on a pedalstool and acting as if white women are superior to black women, i have no problem with who a black man decides to date or marry.

so, if all the black men decided to leave the non-black women they're with and "come back home," it still wouldn't spare black womens sanity one OUNCE. We would still have the same exact problems and be percieved and treated the same exact way by our society.


peace
quote:
Originally posted by ThaWatcher:
Trying to figure out why Tyrone married Becky instead of Keisha is a fruitless endeavor. Hating on Tyrone and Becky for getting married is fruitless too....No one is scaring off anyone else. It seems like alot of folks have cast off the tradition of marrying your own race, for a new tradition of marrying/dating for happiness....
quote:
Originally posted by ThaWatcher:
Trying to figure out why Tyrone married Becky instead of Keisha is a fruitless endeavor. Hating on Tyrone and Becky for getting married is fruitless too....No one is scaring off anyone else. It seems like alot of folks have cast off the tradition of marrying your own race, for a new tradition of marrying/dating for happiness....


Ummm, I see you are a Barkley fan?? lol. Who are you trying to fool??? I, unfortunatly, can attract the same type of EMASCULATED MEN that white women attract. Unlike my darker skinned counterparts, I have to ALSO weed throught that SICK CRAP. I envy dark skinned women that don't have to WEED THROUGH these racial sickos. Let me tell you buddy, as a supporter of ALL women, these women have no PRIZE. fool They have men that are in need of serious ETHNO THERAPY because of internalized racism and their sick SELF HATRED. NOT all, but you can damn sure bet your bippy that it is most of them. It is normal to want to date within your cultural and racial group... It is NOT normal to EXCLUDE an entire race of black women if you are a black man. It is normal to fall in love with a woman of another race, but you can only do that if you LOVE your damn self!!!! I don't feel anger when I see this, and I tell my GF's that can't figure it out the following "Most of these men don't hate black women, when nobody is looking, believe me they look..and Lord forbidyou are witha white man!! lol!! What they HATE IS THEIR OWN REFLECTION. The black WOMAN is a reflection of their OWN blackness... A blackness that they cannot escape... a blackness that makes their skin crawl!!! Don't worry about the woman, she is a delusional victim with trash laid at her feet. OPEN YOUR OPTIONS LADIES, stop with all the I don't date white men etc.. crap... the numbers are against you even if MANY BLACK MEN THAT ONLY DATE LIGHT AND WHITE WERE FUNCTIONAL...

YOU CAN dismiss it if you want, but even you know that black men joke about the VERY TYPICAL educated (although mentally ill) black man with the FAT white girl!! upfro

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