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Beauty's only skin deep, and relationships take WORK no matter who one choses to marry or date. All "THUGS" must be aware that your labor's needed at 25 cents a year, the products are necessary to keep the "wheels" spinning; the place is PRISON, and THEY can't build enough, fast enough, to accommodate YOU and if necessary, YOURS!!

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The petty bourgeoisie are the first to sell out. When they obtain status their lives generally lose both content and significance. - Black Consciousness
quote:
Posted by Detroit1:

i hear you mama, i hear you. but consider another p.o.v. i'm just guessing that you are a young, single, educated, sista who is feeling over-whelmed by these statistics of the lack of available brothas; but be encouraged because that's all they are, statistics. don't worry your little head about what magazine said what and that research said this; if you hope to marry a man all you only need is one of these men and that should be your focus. judge for yourself by what you actually see as an individual when you are out and about; these articles are becoming your reality. many black women are not going to marry because they believe in the hype, not because "all the good men are taken".you must make an individual decision if you will be apart of this group of forever lonelys or not. don't take the generalizations and exaggerations literally. where ever you are, there are enough single, educated men for you to deal with. unless you're a hermit, i'm sure you cross paths with enough single, educated, black men to keep you busy, but you're mind is probably fixed on some new gender gap report you just read. open your eyes and be aware of your surroundings whether it be at college, work, church, your community; you can't honestly say that you never witness together looking brothas without wedding rings. any given college has single brothas within the student body, not nearly as much as women, but they do exist. i'm taking classes at night at the local university and there is a big difference of the number of sistas walking to and fro class compared to that of brothas, but nevertheless, i always run into other black bachelors in my class just like i do at work and the gym, brothas i went to high school with, etc.; why don't you. don't worry about the whole single black female population and worry about your own future and be encouraged.


Some of the stuff posted here is just unbelievable. Are you seriously suggesting that if we just close our eyes and behave, then by some miracle there will suddenly float down from heaven enough men for all of us? If we stop "believing the hype", all the men will crawl out from under their rocks so we can find them? Are you serious? basically what you are saying (unless you think they really are under rocks and in the clouds) is that there is a shortage, but it doesn't hurt you, so we should get over it. Yeah, there's 2 women for every black man in college, but it's all good if we ignore half the women.

And for the record, I run 5 miles a day at the gym and there are a hell of a lot more black women there than men. There were more in college, way more in grad school, more in my office, more in the restaurants I go to, more on the street, and according to the census, more in the whole country. This is life, not an article, and I have been painfully aware of it since the moment in high school when I realized I had outgrown ghetto boys. I am not in this conversation because I need a man, but because too many people are blatantly ignoring the fact that no amount of women changing what they look like or their attitude or lowering their expectations is going to make men materialize out of thin air. The reason so many of you men refuse to acknowledge that is for the simple fact that you benefit from it. So, sorry, but I'm not impressed by your "everything's all right if you ignore your better judgement" mentality. Everything is not all right, and besides the massive amount of work we need to do to uplift black men, we also need to pull our respective heads out and see the situation for what it is.

djona
quote:
posted by Raheem:
Women, since the beginning of time have been marrying men with alot of money..that's a raceless fact. The idea that the white woman dated a blk man who was poor [college or military] is not included in that stat..it spoke about marriage and didn't even tell if it was the earning on that wedding day or after some time.[BIG POINT!!!]. They use the word 'tendency' and says that it 'increased', yet never gave real number stats that proved that point...why not?? COuld it be that blk women and white women both marry for money?? I think so


Not to startle you here, but I think that has a lot to do with the fact that that article doesn't support what you were saying. White women marry "down" less than black women, and poor black men are more likely to find a black woman to "grow" with them than a white one. If you think otherwise, you should show me some statistics. Otherwise, this is all opinion. I am glad to see you renegged on that "black women are greedy and don't want to stay with poor brothers" angle you were working, though. It was so obviously wrong.


quote:
Raheem:
'Tendencies' can be analyzed any number of ways, for example did you know that the fastest growing religion in the USA is Islam?? Does that mean that all americans are becoming muslims??? No, it means that of the growing religions, Islam has the fastest growth, not the highest number. For those that are changing religions, the TENDENCY is to become a muslim.

If the stat/tendency was talking about the amount he and she earn when they met, then you can see that she 'for the most part' was down with him when he was down. You can now see how your above statement is NOT supported by that quote


That's a stretch. for starters, black-white marriages have only been legal for the past 40 years or so, so when they say that white women tend to marry wealthier black men, they do not mean "white women who were previously married to poor black men" or "white women who dated poor black men and then married them when they got settled". It means most black men who marry white women are better educated and have more money than those women. Pretty simple. It also mentions that black men who marry white often do so after being married to a black woman while they were younger (and poorer). So while we are talking about your "building black men" stats, why do you think that wouldn't apply to black women as well? If you think poor white women are slaving while their men go to college and get good jobs, why would you think black women weren't? Do you have a bias, perhaps? Wink I am no longer surprised that you can't see the problem there, but I am surprised you thought I wouldn't. So once again, back up your opinions or swallow them.
quote:
Raheem:
if the white woman is a stay at home mom,she has no income...so he hubby outearn her...so to say that blk women are more likely to outearn her hubby is a non-point...a lil boy in that house with a paper route earns more money than a stay at home mom


So how do you know those statistics haven't already been adjusted to include only working women, just like they don't include kids below a certain age as "men" or "women"? When the figures for salary are aggregated, they are based on full time employment records, you know, the kind of stuff you don't have if you are sitting at home doing the dishes. So if they say that white women make less than white men, they're talking about Murphy Brown, not Donna Reed. You didn't know that, did you? Nice try, though.
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:

Is this opinion or fact? The problem is you haven't proved any of it. You are telling me that white women are "building" black men black men but where's your proof? You show me that black women _aren't_ leaving black partners who were with them while they were poorer to marry white women when they have money. You show me. Because there's data right in one of the articles I posted that says the exact opposite. Black men who marry black women first are more likely to marry white women when they're older. After all the work I have done showing you the holes in your theory, the least you can do is meet me half way. Prove something.


**'Sociologists say the rise of an educated black middle class, the Sunbelt migration boom, "reverse migration" by blacks from the North and the fact that the U.S. military "” most of whose bases are in the South "” has become one of the country's most integrated institutions have increased opportunities for blacks and whites to interact as equals and develop romantic relationships. These factors combined to help join the Edgeworths. Yvette, 35, a claims auditor at the Social Security Administration in Birmingham, grew up on air bases in California and Germany before her family moved to Maxwell Air Force Base in Montgomery, Ala., in the 1980s, when she was a teenager. She and her first husband, who was white, had three children before divorcing in 1993. "In the military, everybody's pretty much one color these days," she says.'
http://www.time.com/time/connections/article/0,9171,1101030512-449470,00.html

**'Residents of California and Hawaii were more likely to marry out of their race than people who reside in the South or Midwest, the study reported. Those who have served in the military were also more likely to choose partners of a different race.'
http://www.pub.umich.edu/daily/1997/mar/03-25-97/news/news2.html

**'Situational considerations such as class, geography and occupation also affect the decision to date and marry interracially. Interracial marriage is twice as frequent among blacks who have completed post-graduate studies and as much as five times more frequent for those in the military. And while mixed marriages among blacks and whites in the South continue to be infrequent, recent studies say that 32% of the black men in the Pacific Northwest, 20% in California, 30% in the Rocky Mountain states, and 19% in the New England states married outside their race.'
http://www.beautyworlds.com/loveblackandwhiteII.htm



Here is the 'proof' that I found one the net. In all honesty, I was just speaking from the standpoint of an ex-military and graduate school graduate and my observations. If you know any Blk men in the military or who use to serve, ask them about the 'Demand Japan' requests from blk male soldiers and the 'fun' times in Germany Wink

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'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:

_WHERE ARE THEY??!?!?!?_Point us to the cave so we can dig them out. Because until they surface, there are a hell of a lot more thugs running around these days. And for the record, many of us who are married met our husbands IN COLLEGE. And it's true, those women who wait too long to get started often find themselves left out. Big surprise. They are all taken by age 45.
'


do 'good desireable women roam the countryside in packs??...then why would you assume that the brofolk did?? They are not in a cave, but after reading all this mongel stuff in the sista spot, i'm beginning to wonder if blk men do live there??. BTW, the term 'many', as in 'many of us who are married met our husbands IN COLLEGE'...means more than one. There are many children in President Bush's family...there are TWO so I guess that term 'many' was used correctly Smile......Also, if you are waiting until age 45 to seek out marriage material mates to marry, YOUS A FOOL!!!..esp if she is hoping to start a family.

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'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
posted by Raheem:
it doesn't matter the numbers because if the women are not desired, they are not likely to get dates. If star jones is all that is ot there [her being educated and all] and not very attractive, then single men may pass her up and remain single...again, if it is the man's choice, he's gonna choose beauty..much like you were saying that women like degreed men. Well if the degreed man is desired by star jones. tracy chapman, macy gray, and mother love, that degreed man may choose other, because it is his choice to make who he dates. _You see that's four single black women looking for love, but none are desired, that's why your numbers dont matter_..plus add to that that people hve to have chemistry too. Now you see why a woman refusin to date a blue collar man/degreeless man ONLY harms her chances of marriage or relationships?? I say women should go out on as many dates as possible to open the game to all races as possible to INCREASE the chances of finding Mr. right...if not, she'll be a Tracy Chapman/Star JOnes in a room full of Denzels [translation: she'll find those men that she heavily desires, but herself is not very desireable to those men she wants ]..i hope that adds some clarity for you



And the truth finally comes out. So all this talk about us being superficial and wanting nothing but thugs and not derserving even an urkel was just a nice way to tell us you think we are too ugly for black men. So screw looking for a good man, a hard worker, an educated, driven brother. Don't even think about an attractive one. Grab what you can, because nobody wants you anyway, right? Black men marry white women not because they are helping build anybody - they marry up more than black women. They go after white women because they can't stand to look at women who look like their mothers. Women whom you seem to think make black men all look like Denzel.

Yet you still can't admit that you own your own problems, can you? You don't like black women because you don't like them, so any problem we have you blame on us. This has nothing to do with being right, or being fair, or even making sense. This is your demon, you just haven't figured out that it owns you. But that's Baltimore for you. No surprise there. At least now we know what we're dealing with.




I was giving a REAL time analysis of your stats posted. If you look at the 'ratio' of women to men, or most correctly, single women to single men..you must look at what BOTH SIDES are looking for in a mate. If women what degrees or status or security, that's fine...but what do men want?? If men are first attracted to a woman's looks, than a woman that isn't much to look at is at a disadvantage. Those 'qualities' that men are looking for vary from guy to guy, but certain 'tendencies' must be looked at. For example, men are not instantly attracted to fat women, so being over weight put you at a disadvantage if you are single and looking. Men also avoid women with 'ready made' families, i.e. kids, esp. if she was never married. Men are judging women here remember..kinda like earlie you spoke about women liking men with degrees, well turn about is fair play. Women choose what they want, men choose what they want. If a woman is obese or chunky or whatever the new 'fat' term is, she will have a harder time finding a date, esp. if she wishes to b approached by men. Men go for what they want, if they don't want her, that's his choice. Does a single woman have to give every single guy a chance at romance?? Remeber your long rant about the number of degrees men/women [yet you never proved a connection that those degreed people were more likely to marry and stay in love longer than degressless people...who do you call shallow again...men??']

My advice to the single women, slim up [blk women are one of the largest groups of people in the USA, according to the Surgeon general, nearly 70% are over weight] http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/topics/obesity/calltoaction/fact_glance.htm
...date as much as possible, all races all colors...date all types of men...the more the better the chances of marriage.

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
Originally posted by LilFoxyBrwnIntellectual:
I'm sorry that I can't respond to you guys as frequently but I'm a night owl and a student, so...

First to _Henry38_ thanks applepie I get turned on by men with the same vigor, so I understand, that's why I mentioned Bill Maher as one of my many intellectual crushes. That song "Mind Sex" is so on point. I just love a man who can challenge me intellectually. I'm a sucker for male sesquipedalians, "Use big words w/ me daddy, yeah baby yeah!"

And speaking of intellect: _Raheem_ you seem to purposely want to end any discussions with me by responding with shorter and more misinterpretated replies. I mean if you don't want to challenge my arguments then start employing the tatics that you used a while back: if memory serves me correctly, weren't you on a one-word response campaign? To wit [you]: interesting. You've repeatedly inferred that "bad boy" enthusiasts are UNIQUE to young black women. And I challenged you by asking you to explain ONE phenomena like why Asian/Asian American women marry out, with white men especially, at such a high rate when it is clear that Asian/Asian American men are in general better providers (intellectually and economically) in comparison to white and black men. _No one is dimissing the fact that "bad boys," aka "thugs" in the black community, are a popular choice among young women. I'm refuting YOUR notion that this is only UNIQUE to young black women, which is why Asian American women, AMONG OTHERS, make your notion BASELESS._

And, again, Raheem babe what does "white women hitting on black men" mean? What does that support? We're arguing the thug vs. the [black] nerd. And I highly doubt [black] nerds are in the gym; that is the best oxymoron I've read all day. _I'm not against IRs and I think you keep sidetracking the discussion in the assumption that I am and it is highly distracting. The conversation from my perspective is about what young black women prefer in comparison to young non-black women. So let's make this clear I don't care about Becky and Tyrone and I wish them the best, now let's get back to why you believe that black women are the only group of superficial women? Again, your argument is based on what? Because Asian men have the same claim against Asian women._



i wanted to end discussion with you because you said that since the blk/white thing wasn't similar to asian men and women that my argument was baseless. I assumed you were a halfwit. If you would like to discuss the topic, fine, just make some sense while doing it ok??..BTW, this topic is about blk women, not asian women and asian men..for that you can go to asianavenue.com it's simliar to blk planet and they discuss topics like that. Happy tuesday

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
posted by Raheem:
Women, since the beginning of time have been marrying men with alot of money..that's a raceless fact. The idea that the white woman dated a blk man who was poor [college or military] is not included in that stat..it spoke about marriage and didn't even tell if it was the earning on that wedding day or after some time.[BIG POINT!!!]. _They use the word 'tendency' and says that it 'increased', yet never gave real number stats that proved that point...why not??_ COuld it be that blk women and white women both marry for money?? I think so


Not to startle you here, but I think that has a lot to do with the fact that that article _doesn't_ support what you were saying. White women marry "down" less than black women, and poor black men are more likely to find a black woman to "grow" with them than a white one. If you think otherwise, you should show me some statistics. Otherwise, this is all opinion. I am glad to see you renegged on that "black women are greedy and don't want to stay with poor brothers" angle you were working, though. It was so obviously wrong.


quote:
Raheem:
'Tendencies' can be analyzed any number of ways, for example did you know that the fastest growing religion in the USA is Islam?? Does that mean that all americans are becoming muslims??? No, it means that of the growing religions, Islam has the fastest growth, not the highest number. For those that are changing religions, the TENDENCY is to become a muslim.

If the stat/tendency was talking about the amount he and she earn when they met, then you can see that she 'for the most part' was down with him when he was down. You can now see how your above statement is NOT supported by that quote


That's a stretch. for starters, black-white marriages have only been legal for the past 40 years or so, so when they say that white women _tend_ to marry wealthier black men, they do not mean "white women who were previously married to poor black men" or "white women who dated poor black men and then married them when they got settled". It means most black men who marry white women are better educated and have more money than those women. Pretty simple. It also mentions that black men who marry white often do so after being married to a black woman while they were younger (and poorer). So while we are talking about your "building black men" stats, why do you think that wouldn't apply to black women as well? If you think poor white women are slaving while their men go to college and get good jobs, why would you think black women weren't? Do you have a bias, perhaps? Wink I am no longer surprised that you can't see the problem there, but I am surprised you thought I wouldn't. So once again, back up your opinions or swallow them.



for references that are more 'workable' to your discussions. Might I suggest the US census. You see, they actually ran around the country and asked questions of everyone. They are not talking 'tendencies' or 'trends' they use numbers. That's how you 'support' an argument, with numbers, not randon google searched 'facts' which seem to be from someone's home assignment in Sociology 101. BTW, Frederick Douglass married a white women and he died MORE Than 40 years ago...facts are facts!!!

As far as you points about blk women being 'supportive', why that blk women have the lowest marriage rate??
**African Americans marry at a significantly lower rate than other racial groups in the United States. The federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reports that by the age of 30, 81 percent of white women and 77 percent of Hispanics and Asians will marry, but only 52 percent of black women will do so....In 1880, for example, about 60 percent of black females between the ages of 20 and 24 were married. In 1920, it was 63 percent. The 1960s marked the beginning of the slide in marriage rates. Then, between 1970 and 1980, the numbers fell dramatically: down to just 30 percent from about 53 percent for these young black women. Some of the drop can be attributed to people getting married at an older age, Engerman said, but much of the explanation is that marriage was falling out of favor.**

http://www.suntimes.com/special_sections/marriage/day2/cst-nws-black09.html


I think stats like these, along with the 70%OOW birth rate shows that many blk women are not taking marriage as seriously as generation prior. Again, I think it's the addiction to thugs/bad boys/drug dealer/ and that 'Hard' life. Maybe younger women need marriage 'role models', but if mom the same way, who can be that 'example'. Confused

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
Raheem:
if the white woman is a stay at home mom,she has no income...so he hubby outearn her...so to say that blk women are more likely to outearn her hubby is a non-point...a lil boy in that house with a paper route earns more money than a stay at home mom


So how do you know those statistics haven't already been adjusted to include only working women, just like they don't include kids below a certain age as "men" or "women"? When the figures for salary are aggregated, they are based on _full time employment records_, you know, the kind of stuff you don't have if you are sitting at home doing the dishes. So if they say that white women make less than white men, they're talking about Murphy Brown, not Donna Reed. You didn't know that, did you? Nice try, though.


those are your stats, you tell me if they were 'adjusted'..add in that white males, unlike any other group are more likely to be millionaires and have stay at home wives. Smile

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
Raheem:
Women choose what they want, men choose what they want. If a woman is obese or chunky or whatever the new 'fat' term is, she will have a harder time finding a date, esp. if she wishes to b approached by men. Men go for what they want, if they don't want her, that's his choice. Does a single woman have to give every single guy a chance at romance?? Remeber your long rant about the number of degrees men/women [yet you never proved a connection that those degreed people were more likely to marry and stay in love longer than degressless people...who do you call shallow again...men??'


OK, I know you are probably getting tired of this, but there's a problem with that logic, too. In order to say that black women can't get married because they are too fat, you first have to establish that it's only the fat women who are complaining. Otherwise, you need another explaination to account for the fact that there are also very attractive women out there who are still single. But given your past aversion to fact-checking your statements, good luck with that. And you still haven't even come close to refuting the fact that the numbers make a serious difference. Not that I expect it at this point.
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:

Djona, why are you posting some article from 1986 as proof? The most recent study that I've seen was done by the Census in 2001, and as I've said before the ratio is 90.6.



Your ratio is what you presume is the current ratio. My data is historical, and it show a trend that started apparently in the 1920s. It shows that the male shortage is nothing new, and is steadily worsening. That's why I cited both. Also, the 87% number is from 2000 (and is represented on the apalanet site in raw numbers (in 1000s). The numbers work fine for the other races, I don't see why they shouldn't for us. And there's no way the black male percentage could have increased by 3 points in 1 year, especially since it's been on the decline for so long, so I'll stick with the 87% figure for now. Also, the 38 mil number is from the 2002 census for people who checked black or black mixed. I'll find the link for you when I get home. There were two numbers, one for people who checked black exclusively, one for black mixed which most of us are. You number doesn't include the second set. That's the difference.


But to double check, I looked here http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/race/black/ppl-164/tab01.xls

for the numbers released in 2003. THese are raw numbers, so you have to do some crunching. Black mixed people in this chart fall into the "other" category, so we go with the black exclusive folks and we start with your figure of 36Mil. Of that number, 19.3Million are female, 16.722M are male. That means males are 16.722/19.3 = _86.6%_ of the female population. Slightly worse than 87%, I would say. It is current and it clearly fits the trend I have already demonstrated. I have no idea how you came up with 90.6%. Maybe you should post a link.


[This message was edited by djonmaila on December 08, 2003 at 04:35 PM.]

here you go

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Then I heard another voice say:"come out of her,my people,so that you will not share her sins,so that you will not receive her plagues, for her sins have piled up to heaven and YAH has remembered her crimes,give her back as much as she has given;pay her back double what she has done. Mix her a double portion from her own cup. Give her as much torture and grief as the glory and luxury she gave herself."(Revelations 18:4-7)
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
Raheem:
Women choose what they want, men choose what they want. If a woman is obese or chunky or whatever the new 'fat' term is, she will have a harder time finding a date, esp. if she wishes to b approached by men. Men go for what they want, if they don't want her, that's his choice. Does a single woman have to give every single guy a chance at romance?? Remeber your long rant about the number of degrees men/women [yet you never proved a connection that those degreed people were more likely to marry and stay in love longer than degressless people...who do you call shallow again...men??'


OK, I know you are probably getting tired of this, but there's a problem with that logic, too. In order to say that black women can't get married because they are too fat, you first have to establish that it's only the fat women who are complaining. Otherwise, you need another explaination to account for the fact that there are also very attractive women out there who are still single. But given your past aversion to fact-checking your statements, good luck with that. And you still haven't even come close to refuting the fact that the numbers make a serious difference. Not that I expect it at this point.



dates are before marriage...so if she aint getting dates, she aint gonna get married...unless there is some other ways of hooking up, i.e. arranged marriages, 'mail order' husbands, etc.'...She, at a larger size, is just gonna get less attention form men...this is a raceless fact. Open up any issue of a swimsuit claendar or a men's magazine like maxim, and look for the 'full figured' types. Blk men seem to be willing to date larger women [esp. with onions], but for the most part guys are fairly the same. Other factors lead to a woman being 'married', like chemistry and attitude. If she is thin, attractive, and childess, but roll her neck at everything and treats men badly, she will have a tough time getting marrying. Just being real. Go ask single male friends of your to pick who's sexier star jones or mother love?? Wink As far as numbers go, if the women are not 'viable' dates, i.e. too fat, with kids, ugly, attitude, etc, she could be seen as the same as a men who lives with his mom, no degrees, no job, etc....both that man and that women are not viable dates in a dating market

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
And there will never be more women in prison than men. You guys are still at 95% overall. Our rates shot up higher than yours with tougher drug laws, but we are no where near your incarceration rates. I'm sure you saw that.


1) I should certainly hope not. You see, to love someone is to not want them to see them go through the same thing as you.
2)I am trying to show there is a serious problem on the rise. That transcends what you want to believe. You, are trying to protect some social/moral high-ground, to hold on to your beliefs that brothas are beneath you.
3) Yes, I did see that you are nowhere near in numbers, but your current rates are more than twice ours, you have to see that.
4)You never answered the question.



Clearly I don't have a problem with interracial marriages. And clearly, in the black community, black men have already discovered it. The reason I think it would help women in particular is that (for the nth time) there are 2.6 million more of us some of whom out of desperation are contributing demise of the black family. Women who can't find their own man are tapping into somebody else's, having kids out of wedlock, or putting up with bad men when they do find them. None of that helps the black family, and it certainly doesn't do much for our sanity as women. Look, the interracial door is already open for men. You don't need me to tell you that.
No, clearly you have no problem with sistas interracial marriages you seem to show disdain for men who do. And 5.5 out of a population does'nt mean black men. And if I remember currectly from the couple of days I spent lurking on swagga you were bi-racial(I think that was you, not totally sure though.) Well any way, just beause it's the norm for you doesn't mean thats what every should do or want. If you you really wanted to help out sistas comback with alternitves that help and satisfy THEM not just your self


[This message was edited by djonmaila on December 08, 2003 at 04:48 PM.]



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Then I heard another voice say:"come out of her,my people,so that you will not share her sins,so that you will not receive her plagues, for her sins have piled up to heaven and YAH has remembered her crimes,give her back as much as she has given;pay her back double what she has done. Mix her a double portion from her own cup. Give her as much torture and grief as the glory and luxury she gave herself."(Revelations 18:4-7)
quote:
Raheem:
those are your stats, you tell me if they were 'adjusted'..add in that white males, unlike any other group are more likely to be millionaires and have stay at home wives.



I am reallllly starting to wonder about you. Look and that post again, any of you guys, and tell me whether I was vague about the fact that employment statistics do not include housewives. So, yes, I did tell you. You just don't want to hear it, and now all you have is excuses. "white males are more likely to be millionaires". No kidding. You know in all this conversation I have never stooped to your level in pointing fingers at either sex. For every argument you have already abandoned, there's an equal argument that could be made against black men.

If black women expect too much, why can black men get their acts together and provide like all the other men?

If educated black women discriminate against uneducated brothers, why are there so damn many men who can't get an education?

If black women need to make themselves more desirable, why can't all the urkels and underachievers be the kind of successful, faithful men desirable women go for?

But I don't agree with any of those arguments because each one is as nearsighted yours, and making such arguments casts black men and women as adversaries instead of brethren, and only reveals the ignorance of a mind that can't see that men and women aren't brought up in isolation, and that our experiences, our past, and our lives are necessarily related. Each time you accuse a woman of behaving poorly, you also accuse every relative she has, those who taught her and even those who didn't, male and female. When you accuse a man of mediocrity, you also accuse every member of his family that allowed it to happen. If you blame black men for being unwed parents, you also blame the unwed mothers. You cannot declare that something is wrong with black women without also indicting the men who fathered them, and you will never malign our image and disrespect our fellow sisters without doing the exact same thing to yourself and your brothers. We are the same people growing up in the same communities, the same cultures. Whatever is wrong with us, we own it as a people, and until you can step up and shoulder your share of the burden you're only fooling yourself. That I should even have to explain this to you is beyond all comprehension.
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
Raheem:
those are your stats, you tell me if they were 'adjusted'..add in that white males, unlike any other group are more likely to be millionaires and have stay at home wives.



I am _reallllly_ starting to wonder about you. Look and that post again, any of you guys, and tell me whether I was vague about the _fact_ that employment statistics do not include housewives. So, yes, I did tell you. You just don't want to hear it, and now all you have is excuses. "white males are more likely to be millionaires". No kidding. You know in all this conversation I have never stooped to your level in pointing fingers at either sex. For every argument you have already abandoned, there's an equal argument that _could_ be made against black men.

If black women expect too much, _why can black men get their acts together and provide like all the other men?_

If educated black women discriminate against uneducated brothers, _why are there so damn many men who can't get an education?_

If black women need to make themselves more desirable, _why can't all the urkels and underachievers be the kind of successful, faithful men desirable women go for?_

But I don't agree with any of those arguments because each one is as nearsighted yours, and making such arguments casts black men and women as adversaries instead of brethren, and only reveals the ignorance of a mind that can't see that men and women aren't brought up in isolation, and that our experiences, our past, and our lives are necessarily related. Each time you accuse a woman of behaving poorly, you also accuse every relative she has, those who taught her and even those who didn't, male and female. When you accuse a man of mediocrity, you also accuse every member of his family that allowed it to happen. If you blame black men for being unwed parents, you also blame the unwed mothers. You cannot declare that something is wrong with black women without also indicting the men who fathered them, and you will never malign our image and disrespect our fellow sisters without doing the exact same thing to yourself and your brothers. We are the same people growing up in the same communities, the same cultures. Whatever is wrong with us, we own it as a people, and until you can step up and shoulder your share of the burden you're only fooling yourself. That I should even have to explain this to you is beyond all comprehension.




**more mindless attacks towards me?? I'll answer you 'points'. If your husband is a multi-millionaire or apart of the highest earning group in the country, do you [as a wife] NEED a job?? No, so it would make some sense than the wife's job, if she had one would pay less...right?? Wouldn't higher income families have a 'less' requirement of a working wife?? Blacks earn less, so everyone needs to work harder to make ends meet.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104552.html



If educated black women discriminate against uneducated brothers, _why are there so damn many men who can't get an education?_
**College actually cost money, in case you didn't know. Many blks are poor and can't afford college. Many males opt for military, which pays for college and is actually a requirement for those men that want to stay in the military long term 'more up or move out' is the mindset of the military, it cost the govt alot of money for training soldiers, so the most they can get out of them, the better off the military is.

If black women need to make themselves more desirable, _why can't all the urkels and underachievers be the kind of successful, faithful men desirable women go for?_

**Nope, they SHOULD make themselves more desireable before complaining about men shortages, etc. If you are not a viable date, i.e. three kids with three men while never being married once, overweight, attitude, etc, you'll not have many chances to meet menfolk, esp. if you are waiting to be approached. As for faithfl men, wasn't it you that spoke about the blk women at your college that had kids with sperm donoring daddies that never married...why was he chosen by them?? Didn't they see his 'history'..you said that he didn't hide those other mommies..right?


As far as the other stufs, didn't you say that you stopped dating african american men in college because of YOUR opinion of a few?? Isn't that what I am doing?? Why am I wrong, when I never said that i stopped dating blk women?? I'm beginning to wonder if you are a fair person, doubtful Confused
***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream

[This message was edited by RadioRaheem on December 09, 2003 at 04:46 PM.]
quote:
IMMORTAL LOGIC:

No, clearly you have no problem with sistas interracial marriages you seem to show disdain for men who do. And 5.5 out of a population does'nt mean black men. And if I remember currectly from the couple of days I spent lurking on swagga you were bi-racial(I think that was you, not totally sure though.) Well any way, just beause it's the norm for you doesn't mean thats what every should do or want. If you you really wanted to help out sistas comback with alternitves that help and satisfy THEM not just your self


Please show me the disdain. The only problem I have had up till now is the insinuation that the problems in black relationships are the fault of black women (or in the case at swagga, that we should be fighting over black men who only want mixed/white women). So yes I am on swagga, (posts in navy blue throughout that thread)

http://www.swagga.com/cgi-bin/blah/Blah.pl?b=general_board,v=display,m=1054195239,s=60

and the closest I ever came to saying I was bi-racial was in telling people I am not 100% African. Something most of us can say. Two of my grandparents are completely African (recent immigrants to NY and the Carribbean). The other two are American blacks who are just as white and Native American mixed as the rest of AAs here (which probably makes me tri-racial, there's no telling). I mentioned my African grandparents in one of the threads there, too, but I can't find it.
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
IMMORTAL LOGIC:

No, clearly you have no problem with sistas interracial marriages you seem to show disdain for men who do. And 5.5 out of a population does'nt mean black men. And if I remember currectly from the couple of days I spent lurking on swagga you were bi-racial(I think that was you, not totally sure though.) Well any way, just beause it's the norm for you doesn't mean thats what every should do or want. If you you really wanted to help out sistas comback with alternitves that help and satisfy THEM not just your self


Please show me the disdain. The only problem I have had up till now is the insinuation that the problems in black relationships are the fault of black women (or in the case at swagga, that we should be fighting over black men who only want mixed/white women). So yes I am on swagga, (posts in navy blue throughout that thread)

http://www.swagga.com/cgi-bin/blah/Blah.pl?b=general_board,v=display,m=1054195239,s=60

and the closest I ever came to saying I was bi-racial was in telling people I am not 100% African. Something most of us can say. Two of my grandparents are completely African (recent immigrants to NY and the Carribbean). The other two are American blacks who are just as white and Native American mixed as the rest of AAs here (which probably makes me _tri_-racial, there's no telling). I mentioned my African grandparents in one of the threads there, too, but I can't find it.



NOW YOU QUOTE A MESSAGE BOARD AS A SOURCE!!! rotflmao

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
i hear you mama, i hear you. but consider another p.o.v. i'm just guessing that you are a young, single, educated, sista who is feeling over-whelmed by these statistics of the lack of available brothas; but be encouraged because that's all they are, statistics. don't worry your little head about what magazine said what and that research said this; if you hope to marry a man all you only need is one of these men and that should be your focus. judge for yourself by what you actually see as an individual when you are out and about; these articles are becoming your reality. many black women are not going to marry because they believe in the hype, not because "all the good men are taken".you must make an individual decision if you will be apart of this group of forever lonelys or not. don't take the generalizations and exaggerations literally. where ever you are, there are enough single, educated men for you to deal with. unless you're a hermit, i'm sure you cross paths with enough single, educated, black men to keep you busy, but you're mind is probably fixed on some new gender gap report you just read. open your eyes and be aware of your surroundings whether it be at college, work, church, your community; you can't honestly say that you never witness together looking brothas without wedding rings. any given college has single brothas within the student body, not nearly as much as women, but they do exist. i'm taking classes at night at the local university and there is a big difference of the number of sistas walking to and fro class compared to that of brothas, but nevertheless, i always run into other black bachelors in my class just like i do at work and the gym, brothas i went to high school with, etc.; why don't you. don't worry about the whole single black female population and worry about your own future and be encouraged.
Detroit, I hear what your trying to do. Anyone can spam the board,with negative articles about the other gender, especially if one is going to cut and paste from blacktown.com, but give it up. Our new cut and paste champ, is just the latest poster to project brothas as below them. Since she got here, I knew, I knew that name from somewhere, then I remebered, I came acroos across swagga.com in late september-early oct. where she wrote in a post entitled "Why black men want white women" our interracial advocate says:
"...I am sooo tired of cringing and shaking my head evey time one of these fools embarrasses us on the news. They aren't being raised right, they aren't being educated, they identify with hoodems no matter what you do, and then we throw millions of dollars at them and hope they have there heads on straight. This is supposed to be the cream of the crop, so cream in fact that most of them probably think only a blonde is "good enough" for them. SO WHY DO I GET THE FEELING THEY ARE SO FAR BENEATH MEread here
so your wasting your time bro.

******************************
Then I heard another voice say:"come out of her,my people,so that you will not share her sins,so that you will not receive her plagues, for her sins have piled up to heaven and YAH has remembered her crimes,give her back as much as she has given;pay her back double what she has done. Mix her a double portion from her own cup. Give her as much torture and grief as the glory and luxury she gave herself."(Revelations 18:4-7)
quote:
IMMORTAL LOGIC:
I am trying to show there is a serious problem on the rise. That transcends what you want to believe. You, are trying to protect some social/moral high-ground, to hold on to your beliefs that brothas are beneath you.



So am I, but we are talking about different problems. You think I am trivializing female incarceration rates, I think you are trivializing everything else. But the fact remains that no one can claim there is a female shortage due to incarceration or any other rates, so that topic is tangential to the original discussion, and in it I think we are missing each other.

I am not trying to prove that women are doing everything right and the men need to get it together. I know the reality of this discussion is harsh and I see it has offended people, but this is not about a contest over which is the better sex. That was Raheem's argument. This is about establishing that the problems that we face (for whatever reasons) are having a big enough impact on the numbers of men that we need to stop kidding ourselves. So while I don't mean to make light of female incarceration rates, I will not pretend that they are at the root of the male shortage problem. If you want to discuss that as a separate issue, that's cool, but let's not confuse the two.

Also, if I though brothers were beneath me, I wouldn't be here. Don't make assumptions just because I'm not affaid to tell the truth about the situation. Solutions to issues like this one are not arrived at by pretending they don't exist. We have already tried that, anyway.
quote:
IMMORTAL:
"...I am sooo tired of cringing and shaking my head evey time one of these fools embarrasses us on the news. They aren't being raised right, they aren't being educated, they identify with hoodems no matter what you do, and then we throw millions of dollars at them and hope they have there heads on straight. This is supposed to be the cream of the crop, so cream in fact that most of them probably think only a blonde is "good enough" for them. SO WHY DO I GET THE FEELING THEY ARE SO FAR BENEATH ME read here


You'll see that was in reference to Kobe and his ilk, who I am disgusted with. I stand beside that statement proudly.

Nowhere in that post do I say "all black men" are beneath anyone, but the truth is, black women spend so much time and energy throwing themselves at men like that who spend all their time cheating and don't want us to begin with. And then get in trouble with the law (and remember, I mentioned incarceration rates to exclude undesirable men, and you never disagreed, did you?). I AM better than that, and I am tired of cringing and shaking my head. I wouldn't be here at africanamerica discussing it so vehemently otherwise. So thank you for pointing that out.


[This message was edited by djonmaila on December 09, 2003 at 05:46 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:

Is this opinion or fact? The problem is you haven't proved any of it. You are telling me that white women are "building" black men black men but where's your proof? You show me that black women _aren't_ leaving black partners who were with them while they were poorer to marry white women when they have money. You show me. Because there's data right in one of the articles I posted that says the exact opposite. Black men who marry black women first are more likely to marry white women when they're older. After all the work I have done showing you the holes in your theory, the least you can do is meet me half way. Prove something.


**'Sociologists say the rise of an educated black middle class, the Sunbelt migration boom, "reverse migration" by blacks from the North and the fact that the U.S. military "” most of whose bases are in the South "” has become one of the country's most integrated institutions have increased opportunities for blacks and whites to interact as equals and develop romantic relationships. These factors combined to help join the Edgeworths. Yvette, 35, a claims auditor at the Social Security Administration in Birmingham, grew up on air bases in California and Germany before her family moved to Maxwell Air Force Base in Montgomery, Ala., in the 1980s, when she was a teenager. She and her first husband, who was white, had three children before divorcing in 1993. "In the military, everybody's pretty much one color these days," she says.'
http://www.time.com/time/connections/article/0,9171,1101030512-449470,00.html

**'Residents of California and Hawaii were more likely to marry out of their race than people who reside in the South or Midwest, the study reported. Those who have served in the military were also more likely to choose partners of a different race.'
http://www.pub.umich.edu/daily/1997/mar/03-25-97/news/news2.html

**'Situational considerations such as class, geography and occupation also affect the decision to date and marry interracially. _Interracial marriage is twice as frequent among blacks who have completed post-graduate studies and as much as five times more frequent for those in the military._ And while mixed marriages among blacks and whites in the South continue to be infrequent, recent studies say that 32% of the black men in the Pacific Northwest, 20% in California, 30% in the Rocky Mountain states, and 19% in the New England states married outside their race.'
http://www.beautyworlds.com/loveblackandwhiteII.htm



Here is the 'proof' that I found one the net. In all honesty, I was just speaking from the standpoint of an ex-military and graduate school graduate and my observations. If you know any Blk men in the military or who use to serve, ask them about the 'Demand Japan' requests from blk male soldiers and the 'fun' times in Germany Wink




Wow. Those are lovely stories. But how do articles about the increase in interracial marriages prove that white women are more willing to "grow" with men? You mentioned the being poor thing, but a lot of blacks outside the military are even poorer, and most of them marry black women. So once again, where's your proof? And didn't you already reneg on that, saying that women of all races like to marry up? I could have sworn we've been here before.
quote:
Raheem:

[yet you never proved a connection that those degreed people were more likely to marry and stay in love longer than degressless people...who do you call shallow again...men??']




Actually, I did.


http://www.tamu.edu/univrel/aggiedaily/news/stories/archive/012798-3.html:


Albrecht, with researchers Mark Fossett and Cynthia Cready of Texas A&M, and Jill Kiecolt of Virginia Tech, also tested the sex ratio theory against education levels of African-American women and found that more educated women had better chances of finding mates.

"Of course, you would predict that college women would have the highest rate of marriage prevalence because they have the most resources to bring into a marriage market, but women with only a high school education rated very close to the college women," Albrecht said.

The reason for the close proximity is that women can actually educate themselves to the point that their chances of getting married decrease. Albrecht said this was due to the norm in our country that men are reluctant to marry women with higher education levels.



Mind you, the marriage rate is still lower for educated black women than white. As for staying in love longer, nobody has stats on that.
quote:
Raheem:
As far as you points about blk women being 'supportive', why that blk women have the lowest marriage rate??
**African Americans marry at a significantly lower rate than other racial groups in the United States. The federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reports that by the age of 30, 81 percent of white women and 77 percent of Hispanics and Asians will marry, but only 52 percent of black women will do so....In 1880, for example, about 60 percent of black females between the ages of 20 and 24 were married. In 1920, it was 63 percent. The 1960s marked the beginning of the slide in marriage rates. Then, between 1970 and 1980, the numbers fell dramatically: down to just 30 percent from about 53 percent for these young black women. Some of the drop can be attributed to people getting married at an older age, Engerman said, but much of the explanation is that marriage was falling out of favor.**


On the one hand, you say black women don't want to be married, but on the other you say it's the black men who don't want them. If numbers have nothing to do with it, then which is it?
Your link doesn't work Immortal. I think if you link to the url of the search it doesn't work. So so the folks here don't have to search for my comments (I have many on that site), here's a link to the thread. I am NOT using it as a source, Raheem. ROFL.

http://www.swagga.com/cgi-bin/blah/Blah.pl?b=general_board,v=display,m=1054195239,s=135

As always, my comments are in blue. I posted throughout that thread, so feel free. You should get a better feel for my opinions than Immortal has.
quote:
Originally posted by IMMORTAL LOGIC:
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:

Djona, why are you posting some article from 1986 as proof? The most recent study that I've seen was done by the Census in 2001, and as I've said before the ratio is 90.6.



Your ratio is what you presume is the current ratio. My data is historical, and it show a trend that started apparently in the 1920s. It shows that the male shortage is nothing new, and is steadily worsening. That's why I cited both. Also, the 87% number is from 2000 (and is represented on the apalanet site in raw numbers (in 1000s). The numbers work fine for the other races, I don't see why they shouldn't for us. And there's no way the black male percentage could have increased by 3 points in 1 year, especially since it's been on the decline for so long, so I'll stick with the 87% figure for now. Also, the 38 mil number is from the 2002 census for people who checked black or black mixed. I'll find the link for you when I get home. There were two numbers, one for people who checked black exclusively, one for black mixed which most of us are. You number doesn't include the second set. That's the difference.


But to double check, I looked here http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/race/black/ppl-164/tab01.xls

for the numbers released in 2003. THese are raw numbers, so you have to do some crunching. Black mixed people in this chart fall into the "other" category, so we go with the black exclusive folks and we start with your figure of 36Mil. Of that number, 19.3Million are female, 16.722M are male. That means males are 16.722/19.3 = _86.6%_ of the female population. Slightly worse than 87%, I would say. It is current and it clearly fits the trend I have already demonstrated. I have no idea how you came up with 90.6%. Maybe you should post a link.



http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t11/tab01.pdf

******************************
Then I heard another voice say:"come out of her,my people,so that you will not share her sins,so that you will not receive her plagues, for her sins have piled up to heaven and YAH has remembered her crimes,give her back as much as she has given;pay her back double what she has done. Mix her a double portion from her own cup. Give her as much torture and grief as the glory and luxury she gave herself."(Revelations 18:4-7)


Interesting. I'm not sure what to tell you. Both our links come straight from the census. Mine are more recent, though (2002 vs 2000), but if the black male/female ratio dropped to 87% just in the last two years, things are escalating worse than I thought. We'll have to research whose numbers are off, or if they are both right, there must be an article or research paper somewhere discussing the rapid drop.
quote:
Raheem:
As far as the other stufs, didn't you say that you stopped dating african american men in college because of YOUR opinion of a few?? Isn't that what I am doing?? Why am I wrong, when I never said that i stopped dating blk women?? I'm beginning to wonder if you are a fair person, doubtful


Whoa there, cowboy. I said I stopped dating African American men in college, not black men for good. And the few AAs that I met that were a good match, I did date. Two of them. My problem is not with black men or American men, but your problem seems to be with black women. The difference between us is that you were saying you date out because black women aren't good enough. (too picky, too easy, too ugly, too superficial, etc). I dated out because there weren't many black men with the ridiculous male/female ratios at the nearby schools, and the fact that I don't play well with others (who want to share my boyfriend). So for the thousandth time, the numbers.

But I was pickier than most because I knew I knew didn't have to settle if I dated out. Besides, I am almost 6 feet tall, and I wear very serious heels, and I absolutely love men who tower over me like my husband, who has me by 7 inches. But I swear, any Afro American brother who had stepped up to me with his smile, his motivation, his intellect, his height, and his character would have had me in a minute. I just never found an American one like my baby.

And you are not wrong to date out. I never said that. But you are wrong to pretend black women are the only problem in black-black relationships. You can date whomever you like, kid. Knock yourself out.


[This message was edited by djonmaila on December 09, 2003 at 11:09 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by IMMORTAL LOGIC:
quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
i hear you mama, i hear you. but consider another p.o.v. i'm just guessing that you are a young, single, educated, sista who is feeling over-whelmed by these statistics of the lack of available brothas; but be encouraged because that's all they are, statistics. don't worry your little head about what magazine said what and that research said this; if you hope to marry a man all you only need is one of these men and that should be your focus. judge for yourself by what you actually see as an individual when you are out and about; these articles are becoming your reality. many black women are not going to marry because they believe in the hype, not because "all the good men are taken".you must make an individual decision if you will be apart of this group of forever lonelys or not. don't take the generalizations and exaggerations literally. where ever you are, there are enough single, educated men for you to deal with. unless you're a hermit, i'm sure you cross paths with enough single, educated, black men to keep you busy, but you're mind is probably fixed on some new gender gap report you just read. open your eyes and be aware of your surroundings whether it be at college, work, church, your community; you can't honestly say that you never witness together looking brothas without wedding rings. any given college has single brothas within the student body, not nearly as much as women, but they do exist. i'm taking classes at night at the local university and there is a big difference of the number of sistas walking to and fro class compared to that of brothas, but nevertheless, i always run into other black bachelors in my class just like i do at work and the gym, brothas i went to high school with, etc.; why don't you. don't worry about the whole single black female population and worry about your own future and be encouraged.
Detroit, I hear what your trying to do. Anyone can spam the board,with negative articles about the other gender, especially if one is going to cut and paste from blacktown.com, but give it up. Our new cut and paste champ, is just the latest poster to project brothas as below them. Since she got here, I knew, I knew that name from somewhere, then I remebered, I came acroos across swagga.com in late september-early oct. where she wrote in a post entitled "Why black men want white women" our interracial advocate says:
_"...I am sooo tired of cringing and shaking my head evey time one of these fools embarrasses us on the news. They aren't being raised right, they aren't being educated, they identify with hoodems no matter what you do, and then we throw millions of dollars at them and hope they have there heads on straight. This is supposed to be the cream of the crop, so cream in fact that most of them probably think only a blonde is "good enough" for them. SO WHY DO I GET THE FEELING THEY ARE SO FAR BENEATH ME_http://www.swagga.com/cgi-bin/blah/Blah.pl?b=general_board,v=display,m=105419523,s=all
so your wasting your time bro.

******************************
Then I heard another voice say:"come out of her,my people,so that you will not share her sins,so that you will not receive her plagues, for her sins have piled up to heaven and YAH has remembered her crimes,give her back as much as she has given;pay her back double what she has done. Mix her a double portion from her own cup. Give her as much torture and grief as the glory and luxury she gave herself."(Revelations 18:4-7)


i see, i see, i see; she's just in it for the debate of it; and i thought...
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
Raheem:
those are your stats, you tell me if they were 'adjusted'..add in that white males, unlike any other group are more likely to be millionaires and have stay at home wives.



I am _reallllly_ starting to wonder about you. Look and that post again, any of you guys, and tell me whether I was vague about the _fact_ that employment statistics do not include housewives. So, yes, I did tell you. You just don't want to hear it, and now all you have is excuses. "white males are more likely to be millionaires". No kidding. You know in all this conversation I have never stooped to your level in pointing fingers at either sex. For every argument you have already abandoned, there's an equal argument that _could_ be made against black men.

If black women expect too much, _why can black men get their acts together and provide like all the other men?_

If educated black women discriminate against uneducated brothers, _why are there so damn many men who can't get an education?_

If black women need to make themselves more desirable, _why can't all the urkels and underachievers be the kind of successful, faithful men desirable women go for?_

But I don't agree with any of those arguments because each one is as nearsighted yours, and making such arguments casts black men and women as adversaries instead of brethren, and only reveals the ignorance of a mind that can't see that men and women aren't brought up in isolation, and that our experiences, our past, and our lives are necessarily related. Each time you accuse a woman of behaving poorly, you also accuse every relative she has, those who taught her and even those who didn't, male and female. When you accuse a man of mediocrity, you also accuse every member of his family that allowed it to happen. If you blame black men for being unwed parents, you also blame the unwed mothers. You cannot declare that something is wrong with black women without also indicting the men who fathered them, and you will never malign our image and disrespect our fellow sisters without doing the exact same thing to yourself and your brothers. We are the same people growing up in the same communities, the same cultures. Whatever is wrong with us, we own it as a people, and until you can step up and shoulder your share of the burden you're only fooling yourself. That I should even have to explain this to you is beyond all comprehension.




**more mindless attacks towards me?? I'll answer you 'points'. If your husband is a multi-millionaire or apart of the highest earning group in the country, do you [as a wife] NEED a job?? No, so it would make some sense than the wife's job, if she had one would pay less...right?? Wouldn't higher income families have a 'less' requirement of a working wife?? Blacks earn less, so everyone needs to work harder to make ends meet.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104552.html

How is that the fault of black women? I said we marry down more often, so there's no proof white women are being more considerate, and the best you can come up with is 1). paperboys make more money than housewives and 2). millionaire wives don't have to work? So I guess one of those is proof that white women housewives married to millionaires are more willing to "grow" with black men. That's at least better than posting articles that don't even come close to mentioning your point. That's some sharp detective work there, Raheem.

If educated black women discriminate against uneducated brothers, _why are there so damn many men who can't get an education?_

**College actually cost money, in case you didn't know. Many blks are poor and can't afford college. Many males opt for military, which pays for college and is actually a requirement for those men that want to stay in the military long term 'more up or move out' is the mindset of the military, it cost the govt alot of money for training soldiers, so the most they can get out of them, the better off the military is.

Bull. I do contract work for the Army and the Marines, and I know for a fact there is no requirement to graduate college. One of the guys we work with was shocked when he retired and found out he he's only worth 70K as a developer in the private sector without a degree, and he served 15 years. So don't tell me college is a requirement for military men. It's a requirement if you want to start your career as an officer, but you can stay in for 30 years without going to college.

If black women need to make themselves more desirable, _why can't all the urkels and underachievers be the kind of successful, faithful men desirable women go for?_

**Nope, they SHOULD make themselves more desireable before complaining about men shortages, etc. If you are not a viable date, i.e. three kids with three men while never being married once, overweight, attitude, etc, you'll not have many chances to meet menfolk, esp. if you are waiting to be approached. As for faithfl men, wasn't it you that spoke about the blk women at your college that had kids with sperm donoring daddies that never married...why was he chosen by them?? Didn't they see his 'history'..you said that he didn't hide those other mommies..right?


As far as the other stufs, didn't you say that you stopped dating african american men in college because of YOUR opinion of a few?? Isn't that what I am doing?? Why am I wrong, when I never said that i stopped dating blk women?? I'm beginning to wonder if you are a fair person, doubtful Confused
***********************************************************



You need to read more carefully, though. Those last two ** arguments you make are in response to statements I told you upfront I didn't believe. I said if I stooped to your level, then I could say them, but I hadn't because:

quote:
djonmaila

I don't agree with any of those arguments because each one is as nearsighted yours, and making such arguments casts black men and women as adversaries instead of brethren, and only reveals the ignorance of a mind that can't see that men and women aren't brought up in isolation, and that our experiences, our past, and our lives are necessarily related. Each time you accuse a woman of behaving poorly, you also accuse every relative she has, those who taught her and even those who didn't, male and female. When you accuse a man of mediocrity, you also accuse every member of his family that allowed it to happen. If you blame black men for being unwed parents, you also blame the unwed mothers. You cannot declare that something is wrong with black women without also indicting the men who fathered them, and you will never malign our image and disrespect our fellow sisters without doing the exact same thing to yourself and your brothers. We are the same people growing up in the same communities, the same cultures. Whatever is wrong with us, we own it as a people, and until you can step up and shoulder your share of the burden you're only fooling yourself. That I should even have to explain this to you is beyond all comprehension.


If you were half as interested in reading what I actually have to say as you are in making black women out to be the problem, you would have noticed that I have consistently said throughout this thread that neither sex is holding all the baggage.
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
quote:
Originally posted by LilFoxyBrwnIntellectual:
I'm sorry that I can't respond to you guys as frequently but I'm a night owl and a student, so...

First to _Henry38_ thanks applepie I get turned on by men with the same vigor, so I understand, that's why I mentioned Bill Maher as one of my many intellectual crushes. That song "Mind Sex" is so on point. I just love a man who can challenge me intellectually. I'm a sucker for male sesquipedalians, "Use big words w/ me daddy, yeah baby yeah!"

And speaking of intellect: _Raheem_ you seem to purposely want to end any discussions with me by responding with shorter and more misinterpretated replies. I mean if you don't want to challenge my arguments then start employing the tatics that you used a while back: if memory serves me correctly, weren't you on a one-word response campaign? To wit [you]: interesting. You've repeatedly inferred that "bad boy" enthusiasts are UNIQUE to young black women. And I challenged you by asking you to explain ONE phenomena like why Asian/Asian American women marry out, with white men especially, at such a high rate when it is clear that Asian/Asian American men are in general better providers (intellectually and economically) in comparison to white and black men. _No one is dimissing the fact that "bad boys," aka "thugs" in the black community, are a popular choice among young women. I'm refuting YOUR notion that this is only UNIQUE to young black women, which is why Asian American women, AMONG OTHERS, make your notion BASELESS._

And, again, Raheem babe what does "white women hitting on black men" mean? What does that support? We're arguing the thug vs. the [black] nerd. And I highly doubt [black] nerds are in the gym; that is the best oxymoron I've read all day. _I'm not against IRs and I think you keep sidetracking the discussion in the assumption that I am and it is highly distracting. The conversation from my perspective is about what young black women prefer in comparison to young non-black women. So let's make this clear I don't care about Becky and Tyrone and I wish them the best, now let's get back to why you believe that black women are the only group of superficial women? Again, your argument is based on what? Because Asian men have the same claim against Asian women._



i wanted to end discussion with you because you said that since the blk/white thing wasn't similar to asian men and women that my argument was baseless. I assumed you were a halfwit. If you would like to discuss the topic, fine, just make some sense while doing it ok??..BTW, this topic is about blk women, not asian women and asian men..for that you can go to asianavenue.com it's simliar to blk planet and they discuss topics like that. Happy tuesday

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream


Again, I think you come across smarter sticking to that one-word response, "Interesting." When in the hell were we solely discussing "the black/white thing?" And "this is about black women," yet we were discussing "the black/white thing"...er um, riiiiight!

And you're cute: you can't answer why superficiality is only UNIQE to black women, so you dismiss an obvious argument proving otherwise. But later I notice like Dj points out you backtrack on that BASELESS idea by stating

quote:
Women, since the beginning of time have been marrying men with alot of money..that's a raceless fact.


Now that's what I call a silent upset. Nice try babe you know you pointed out I was "sharp" (I know it was your half-baked attempt at sarcasm) but that needed no explicit mention. See I overestimate or equalize my advesary's abilities, yes including you.Big Grin I don't need you to point out my ability, I just need you to prove it. I don't know I'm faster than you just by you telling me, I need you to run against me so that it can proven. Thanks babe for running against me. This zero-sum game of wits is quite fun-happy Wednesday! angel
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LilFoxyBrwnIntellectual:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Huey:
FYI, Foxy...ALL heterosexual men feel entitled to be with beautiful women, not just the Urkels.

Secondly, Myra was cuter than Laura, simply for the fact that she didn't ask Urkel to change himself, clone himself, never led him on, etc. In fact, she and Laura were in the same social status. The thing is that Myra was an intelligent woman who also was a hottie. She loved Urkel and therefore was labeled a nerd by association. And folks with your mentality treated as such because you all seem so obsessed with putting Urkels in their places, in addition to searching for the next roughneck/thug flavor of the month, which is nothing but a twisted urbanized version of the alpha male.


Huey, baby, I have this sneaky suspicion (call it woman's intuition) that you just skimmed over my response(s). I know I can be long-winded but in order for you to correctly argue me shouldn't you interpret my comments in the proper context? First, I could've sworn I said "if men..."

Secondly, "Laura and Myra had the same social staus?" I haven't recently been watching the re-runs but I couldv'e sworn Myra attended a private school for teenage prodigies.
quote:


-->The bottom line is that they were both high school students. Myra _did_ attend a private school, then later transferred to the same public that Urkel and Laura attended.

BTW, what black guy on earth (besides Thomas Sowell) wants to get with Ann Coulter? She conservative and Republican...and lumping her Pamela Anderson? That's like lumping Louis Farrakhan with Martin Lawrence. rotflmao

I think you need take your own advice about reading a person's comments, LFBI.

[This message was edited by Huey on December 09, 2003 at 12:21 AM.]

Anyway Huey, baby, I don't get your point about Myra's transfer to Laura and Urkel's school. How did that make her suddenly on the same social level as Laura? You point out that they were both high school students but Urkel was also a high school student but was still a social misfit. I graduated from high school 4 years ago and has something changed since then? Because high school harbors the same social hierarchy that the real world harbors. And also my mention of Ann Coulter was purposeful, I was citing two white women that were polar opposites of each other to point out that not all white women are liberal and free or "easy" as some men especially and women would like to portray. It's clear that the day Ann Coulter walks down the alter with a black man is the day hell freezes over. And I'm sure a lot of black men share the same sentiments. And what comments of yours have I not read thoroughly and thus have taken out context?
I'm actually recalling a chapter in Bakari Kitwana's book "The Hip Hop Generation: (I can't remember the rest of the title b/c I cheated by reading a lot of it in the bookstore)." He has a chapter on the tension(s) between young black men and women and in that chapter he mentions a phenomena to give a window into how isolated men especially black men feel. To this effect: there are more strip clubs today than a decade ago. And the strip clubs today aren't the strip clubs back then. Apparently strip clubs were for the wealthy and/or for married men. Those strip clubs offered valet parking and were semi-ritzy, among other things. But anyway of course they were white-oriented and it seems that these clubs weren't attractive to men of color and today there are a lot of black-oriented strip clubs that young black men, as young as 18, frequent. The book was saying that today more and more young men are substituting relationships with strip clubs. I can't remember everything in the chapter but I think the guys could articulate it better just from their own p.o.v. I just know that a lot of men are just opting not to deal with relationships and fulfilling their own sense of a relationship through strippers. I might be distorting what was trying to be conveyed but I know that the book was trying to make a point that if black men were actually idealizing white beauty they'd be frequenting the white oriented clubs. The fact of the matter is that the [black] strip clubs re-create a lot of black men's own idea(s) of what a woman is to them, the "Madonna/whore complex" in the book's own words. And it's also evident in the fact that it didn't take long for magazines like King and Black Men to fill the niche that Maxim, FHM,and so forth couldn't fulfill. So I guess men just feel just as frustrated in their dealings with us and would rather use their imaginations. If I'm wrong, or in actuality the book is wrong, then I am sure the guys will call me on it. But I understand what the book was trying to say b/c I've (like I said before) never been in a relationship and in love and I'd rather live vicariously through love songs then deal with reality. So I understand my male peers. So it could be that some of the men some women are in search of just don't want to be found yet. But if you guys would rather imagine a relationship, wouldn't that mean that you guys are scared too? I can concede that I am scared of giving my heart away and if a man is fulfilling the idea of a relationship thru strippers that definitely means he has a little anxiety himself. I dunno you guys tell me.
Hotep room, well it seems to me that we always argue over semantics and the superficial aspects of the relationship between black men and women. Until we get into the root causes of this situation we will only end up going back and forth with opinions and sterotypes and statistics and anyone who as ever taken a stats class knows how data can be distorted and skewed. We need to deal with real issue here.What are the reasons that black men have so much trouble connecting and forming healthy relationships?, especially in these times. Why are brothers not in the home? why are sistas raising children alone. What is todays black woman's expectations of black men, how does she view them? what does she want from him? How does todays black woman view herself? What is her indentity , how does she see the world. Are black women caught up in this eurocentric , feminist agenda? Why are sistas the fastest growing lesbian and bisexual community?On the flipside, whats goin on with the black man? Why can't he have a healthy relationship with his own black woman? How does he view the black woman? What are the black mans expectations from the black woman?Do black men feel black women are trying to mold herself into the likeness of european women? is this why brothers date white women?,Do they feel that since sistas are trying to act like white women,he might as well get a real white woman? Do black men feel that blackwomen see the european male and all his power as the example of what a man is suppose to be? Why arent black men as powerful? Do black man resent being compared to the european,and is there a conscious and subconscious effort for the black man to seperate himself from the ideology of the european male? Why do brothers seem to have given up on life? what makes the black man feel so weak and helpless, and sometime not give a fucc?, excuse my language. If we look at these questions and look at them from a a historical standpoint , we will begin to see the answers and understand the war that has been waged and continue to be waged on all fronts againt african peoples. Please lets get away from this back and forth over nothing, lets deal with the real deep rooted issues concerning the black man and woman, then we can move into solutions, and away from finger pointing,

one!!!

"I AM BECAUSE WE ARE"
quote:
Originally posted by Knowledgeseeker:

Why are sistas the fastest growing lesbian and bisexual community?



Oh, good greif! bs

There numbers of black lesbians and bisexuals is not growing. They have been around for a long time. It may be that they are becoming more visible as homophobia receeds, but they have been around since the beginning of time, and in the same numbers as today. Roll Eyes

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The Nuclear Resister
School of the Americas Watch
miserable failure



Cauca, Colombia

Anyway ,i understand what your doing. Its always the liberal whites who want to come and tell black people how to think and how to respond to circumstance and situations pertaining to them. of course you can sit back and interject devise comments but the fact is you are not black , never will be and just because you have a black women doesnt mean you have the slightest clue to what goes on in the psychi of black people. So do what you do say what you say but realize I really dont give a dam what you think or how u feel its about us and how we feel about ourselves period

"I AM BECAUSE WE ARE"
quote:
Originally posted by Knowledgeseeker:
the point wasnt that the werent around, the point is the lifestyle is becoming more popular with black women. And yes it is true that black women are the fasted growing lesbian population in the US

"I AM BECAUSE WE ARE"


I'm not sure what you mean by the "lifestyle" becoming more popular. If all that you mean is that black lesbians (along with gay black men, and all gays for that matter) are being more open, and leaving the closet in record numbers, I would agree.

That is a positive development. thumbsup

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The Nuclear Resister
School of the Americas Watch
miserable failure



Cauca, Colombia

quote:
Originally posted by Knowledgeseeker:
Anyway ,i understand what your doing.


I am pleased that you understand what I am doing, since I haven't a clue.

quote:
Its always the liberal whites


I am not a liberal, and have never claimed to be a liberal.

quote:
who want to come


I was invited here by another poster.

quote:
and tell black people how to think and how to respond to circumstance and situations pertaining to them.


I am not telling anybody how to think. I suspect from your comments, however, that you wish to tell black lesbians how to think and how to respond to their circumstances and situations pertaining to them.

quote:
of course you can sit back and interject devise comments


I do like to sit back and interject comments, and sometimes devise comments. Sometimes I even interject devisive comments (which I assume is what you meant to say), but I don't think that this is such a situation. I don't see anything particularly devisive in pointing out that there are, have always been, and will always be, black lesbians.

quote:
but the fact is you are not black , never will be and just because you have a black women doesnt mean you have the slightest clue to what goes on in the psychi of black people.


I have never claimed to be a black lesbian, and I strongly suspect that you are not a black lesbian, either, so it may be that neither one of us has the slightest clue to what goes on in the psychi of black lesbians. I'm afraid that my wife is not of much help in this reguard, since she is not lesbian. Most black lesbians that I have known have shown very little interest in dating me, much less marrying me. winkgrin

quote:
So do what you do say what you say


Thank you very much for your permission.

quote:
but realize I really dont give a dam what you think or how u feel


I really don't give a damn whether you really give a damn what I think or feel.

quote:
its about us and how we feel about ourselves period


I don't think that you were talking about how you feel about yourself, since, as I stated above, I do not believe that you are a black lesbian. Therefore, you must have been talking about others, not yourself.

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The Nuclear Resister
School of the Americas Watch
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Cauca, Colombia

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