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And to clear up the educational discrimination thing once and for all:

quote:
from http://www.csindy.com/csindy/2001-09-06/news.html:

The rude awakening

But some warn of problems if the number of women in college continues to grow as quickly as it has.

"If these college-educated women think they will find college-educated men to marry, they are in for a rude awakening," said Thomas Mortenson, a higher education policy analyst for the Iowa-based Center for the Study of Opportunity in Higher Education.

Dickson, who is currently writing a paper on the increased feminization of students, staff and faculty in higher education, said she has noticed more women in her classes saying it should be OK if women don't want to marry, or if they want to raise a child on their own.

"There is this expectation that you don't want to marry someone below you," said Dickson. "I tell them," she said, "that's true ... if it's a choice. But, I talk about this with my daughter all the time. For large pools of black women, there is not an option."

Dickson said the trends are exaggerated in the African-American community, where 68 percent of college students are women. "Black women have been marrying less educated men for decades," she said.


So yes, we do prefer educated men. Just like all other women. But unlike other women, we are marrying less educated men because we want black men. You think those of us who have degrees are just golddiggers, but the truth is, if we really were just about superficial things and money, we would not be waiting around for you.

d.
And another one. This one is exactly what I have been saying. The whole damn article.

quote:
from http://www.tamu.edu/univrel/aggiedaily/news/stories/archive/012798-3.html:

Searching For Eligible Mates

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


COLLEGE STATION -- Ask any woman over 30 and she will say all the good men are taken.

A study by researchers at Texas A&M University and Virginia Tech gives new insight into the age-old questions of how and where we find eligible men and what happens when the supply decreases.

Their study, based on Guttentag's and Secord's sex ratio theory, found that eligible African-American men in metropolitan areas may be hard to find.

"The theory predicts that when there are fewer men the following things will happen: marriage prevalence will decline, divorce rates will increase, rates of pre-marital sex will increase and out-of-wedlock pregnancies are predicted to increase," said Carol Albrecht, Texas A&M sociologist and lead author. "This is suppose to hold true for all races, but it has had a bigger impact on African-Americans in inner cities."

One reason the African-American community has been affected is that close to 95 percent of blacks tend to marry within their own race, whereas Anglos and Hispanics are more likely to marry outside their race. According to a 1992 analysis by the Bureau of Census, there were only 246,000 black/white marriages and 53 million married couples.

In addition, it is more likely that high mortality rates in inner cities, a declining labor force and increasing incarceration of black men have caused the supply of eligible mates for African-American women to decrease.

Albrecht, with researchers Mark Fossett and Cynthia Cready of Texas A&M, and Jill Kiecolt of Virginia Tech, also tested the sex ratio theory against education levels of African-American women and found that more educated women had better chances of finding mates.

"Of course, you would predict that college women would have the highest rate of marriage prevalence because they have the most resources to bring into a marriage market, but women with only a high school education rated very close to the college women," Albrecht said.

The reason for the close proximity is that women can actually educate themselves to the point that their chances of getting married decrease. Albrecht said this was due to the norm in our country that men are reluctant to marry women with higher education levels.

"Marriage rates for women with no high school education were low and remained relatively low even when you had equal numbers of men and women," she said. "The problem is if you are a woman with no high school education, you have fewer resources to offer a mate; therefore, you cannot compete in the marriage market where you could get married to an economically stable mate."

When people of any race search the marriage market, both men and women consider education to be a valuable resource in the marriage market. Men, however generally place less emphasis on a woman's education and earnings potential and more emphasis on physical attractiveness, because men usually already have more economic stability than women. On the other hand, Albrecht said women tend to place an emphasis on whether a man has economic stability or "looks" as though he will be successful.

Sociologists claim when the sex ratio is imbalanced because of fewer men, women may either work harder to get a mate, which often means worrying more about their physical looks, or go after economic power themselves by getting higher levels of education and/or joining women's movements.

Since the data generally supported the researchers' predictions, they speculate that they may have identified factors that could help decrease poverty among African-American women in inner cities.

"We should provide opportunities and encouragement for women in high poverty areas to increase their education levels. It would make them more competitive in the marriage market and increase their economic stability if they divorce or remain single," Albrecht said.

"According to Guttentag and Secord, until you change the situation, the predictions will not change. To decrease poverty rates, you must increase resources of women and/or provide more ˜available men,'" she said.

Here's another article from newsweek. You need to register to see it at the msn site, but you can see it at the link below:

quote:
from http://blacktown.net/newsweekarticle.htm :

In analyzing data collected from graduates of 28 selective colleges and universities, sociologist Donna Franklin found evidence of serious trouble with marriages where the wife was the dominant wage earner. The black women surveyed were much more likely than white women to have husbands who earned less; those who had been married were also more than twice as likely to have gotten divorced. The facts are not coincidental, says Franklin, author of "What's Love Got to Do With It?""”a probing look at relationships between black women and men. The higher divorce rate among highly educated black women was due, she believes, to the fact that they generally made more money than their mates.


So you really can't accuse us of not hanging in there with you, or growing with you, as you said. Nobody is there for black men like we are.
One more. This one directly compares white women marrying black men with black women. So now there should be no more confusion, and no more telling us we are too "picky"

quote:
from http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:NH2S7BkX8TQJ:www.ssc.wisc.edu/~jraymo/soc971/week4s.htm+black+%22educated+women%22+marrying+down&hl=en&start=8&ie=UTF-8

A specific type of union is the most common among those who intermarry. Black/white intermarriage primarily involves a more educated black man marrying a less-educated white woman. Unions between white men and black women are much more rare...


Kalmijn uses log linear models to predict how black and white men and women would "match up" based on average levels of homogamy among each group and compares these predicted values to those observed for first marriages in the marriage license data. He uses population numbers from the March CPS limited to those married and never married persons between ages 16 and 34. He finds that white women who marry white men are more likely to marry up according to education levels, while black women who marry black men are more likely to marry down. However, once population composition is controlled, black women are also likely to marry up. White women who intermarry are actually less likely to marry up than those who do not, after controlling for population composition, but this is mainly due to lower levels of education among black men. Black women are also more likely to marry down when they intermarry. Over the time period examined (1968-1986), in white-white couples, the tendency for women to marry up has been declining, mainly due to increasing equality in education levels between men and women. In black-black couples, the tendency for black women to marry down has increased, but this is due to changes in population composition. In couples where the husband is black and the wife is white, there is a persistent tendency for the wife to marry up.



So it looks like urkel doesn't have an educated white woman to grow with, either. But I guess if the idea was just that she isn't black ...
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
One more. This one directly compares white women marrying black men with black women. So now there should be no more confusion, and no more telling us we are too "picky"

quote:
from http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:NH2S7BkX8TQJ:www.ssc.wisc.edu/~jraymo/soc971/week4s.htm+black+%22educated+women%22+marrying+down&hl=en&start=8&ie=UTF-8

_A specific type of union is the most common among those who intermarry. Black/white intermarriage primarily involves a more educated black man marrying a less-educated white woman. Unions between white men and black women are much more rare...


Kalmijn uses log linear models to predict how black and white men and women would "match up" based on average levels of homogamy among each group and compares these predicted values to those observed for first marriages in the marriage license data. He uses population numbers from the March CPS limited to those married and never married persons between ages 16 and 34. He finds that white women who marry white men are more likely to marry up according to education levels, while black women who marry black men are more likely to marry down. However, once population composition is controlled, black women are also likely to marry up. White women who intermarry are actually less likely to marry up than those who do not, after controlling for population composition, but this is mainly due to lower levels of education among black men. Black women are also more likely to marry down when they intermarry. Over the time period examined (1968-1986), in white-white couples, the tendency for women to marry up has been declining, mainly due to increasing equality in education levels between men and women. In black-black couples, the tendency for black women to marry down has increased, but this is due to changes in population composition. In couples where the husband is black and the wife is white, there is a persistent tendency for the wife to marry up._


So it looks like urkel doesn't have an educated white woman to grow with, either. But I guess if the idea was just that she isn't black ...


statistics show that white women outnumber blk women in the US census Big Grin The stats you posted doesn't support your final statement, esp. when you are talking about many many thousands of people/marriages Wink

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quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
Here's another article from newsweek. You need to register to see it at the msn site, but you can see it at the link below:

quote:
from http://blacktown.net/newsweekarticle.htm :

In analyzing data collected from graduates of 28 selective colleges and universities, sociologist Donna Franklin found evidence of serious trouble with marriages where the wife was the dominant wage earner. _The black women surveyed were much more likely than white women to have husbands who earned less_; those who had been married were also more than twice as likely to have gotten divorced. The facts are not coincidental, says Franklin, author of "What's Love Got to Do With It?""”a probing look at relationships between black women and men. The higher divorce rate among highly educated black women was due, she believes, to the fact that they generally made more money than their mates.


So you really can't accuse us of not hanging in there with you, or growing with you, as you said. Nobody is there for black men like we are.


white men outearn white women, esp with so many stay at home white moms. Big Grin

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
White, Asian, and Hispanic women do not outnumber their men as significantly as we do. Also, what is the percentage of black men in prison? Part of our original argument was that due to murder and _incarceration_ rates that affect young black males disproportionately, the number of available black males is significantly less than that of available black females. Also, white and Asian women marry out at higher rates that black women, which as I mentioned before, is something black women are disinclined to do, which means our marriage rates are much more directly impacted by the numbers of available black men.

But you wanted proof. Here you go.


quote:
from http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/usa/Rcedrg00-01.htm

_The rate at which black men are incarcerated is astonishing. There are 4,630 black men in prison nationwide per 100,000 black men in the population, whereas the rate for white men is 482.28 In ten states and the District of Columbia, black men are incarcerated at staggeringly high rates that range from 5,740 to 7,859 per 100,000. In contrast, the range among the ten states with the highest rates of white male incarceration is 620 to 1,151. The highest rate of white male incarceration (1,151) is lower than the lowest rate of black male incarceration (1,195). According to Department of Justice calculations, if current rates of incarceration remain unchanged, 28.5 percent of black men will be confined in prison at least once during their lifetime, a figure six times greater than that for white men.29_


quote:
from http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:7yj6TurIIXoJ:repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1064%26context%3Dissr+census+race+sex+ratio+%22black+male%22+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

_Although the male shortage is a relatively recent occurrence in the generalAmerican population (primarily evident since 1960 when the first baby boomers reachedmarriageable age), blacks in this country have experienced a significant male shortage since 1920. Furthermore, the situation has steadily worsened over the years since. Measuring male shortage in terms of the sex ratio, that is, the number of men in a givenpopulation per 100 women, raw Census figures (see Table 1) indicate that the while the sex ratio for the Afro-American population was 99.2 in 1920, it had dropped to 95.0 by 1940 and to 89.6 by 1980. Among whites, the figure did not fall below 100 until 1950, bottoming out at 95.3 in 1970 and 1980._

Djona, why are you posting some article from 1986 as proof? The most recent study that I've seen was done by the Census in 2001, and as I've said before the ratio is 90.6.

from http://www.apalanet.org/news/api_census_2000.pdf
we find male to female ratios as of 2000 as follows:

+ Asians - 95%
+ Whites - 96%
+ Hispanics - 100.4%
+ _Blacks - 87%_


That first figure may in part explain why Asian women marry out more than Asian men.

So we start out at 87%, meaning that of the 20+ million black women in the 2002 census, some 2.6 million of us do not have a shot at getting a black man to ourselves ( 20,073,626 - (20,073,626 * .87) ). That's before you take into account incarceration rates for men, which put 4.63 bms per 100 in prison at any given time (800K+, and 1 in 3 in prison sometime during their lives. And that's before you subtract the men who don't date black. And these figures are no different for educated women. And despite all this, we still marry and date black at higher rates than black men.

I freely admit I must be missing something. Please point out where it says 87% or that there 20+mil. black women in this country. There are 36,419,434 black people in this country, 17,315,333 men, and 19,104,101 women so how did you get 20+ million women?

******************************
Then I heard another voice say:"come out of her,my people,so that you will not share her sins,so that you will not receive her plagues, for her sins have piled up to heaven and YAH has remembered her crimes,give her back as much as she has given;pay her back double what she has done. Mix her a double portion from her own cup. Give her as much torture and grief as the glory and luxury she gave herself."(Revelations 18:4-7)
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
And another one. This one is exactly what I have been saying. The whole damn article.

quote:
from http://www.tamu.edu/univrel/aggiedaily/news/stories/archive/012798-3.html:

Searching For Eligible Mates

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_COLLEGE STATION -- Ask any woman over 30 and she will say all the good men are taken.

A study by researchers at Texas A&M University and Virginia Tech gives new insight into the age-old questions of how and where we find eligible men and what happens when the supply decreases.

Their study, based on Guttentag's and Secord's sex ratio theory, found that eligible African-American men in metropolitan areas may be hard to find.

"The theory predicts that when there are fewer men the following things will happen: marriage prevalence will decline, divorce rates will increase, rates of pre-marital sex will increase and out-of-wedlock pregnancies are predicted to increase," said Carol Albrecht, Texas A&M sociologist and lead author. "This is suppose to hold true for all races, but it has had a bigger impact on African-Americans in inner cities."

One reason the African-American community has been affected is that close to 95 percent of blacks tend to marry within their own race , whereas Anglos and Hispanics are more likely to marry outside their race. According to a 1992 analysis by the Bureau of Census, there were only 246,000 black/white marriages and 53 million married couples.

In addition, it is more likely that high mortality rates in inner cities, a declining labor force and increasing incarceration of black men have caused the supply of eligible mates for African-American women to decrease.

Albrecht, with researchers Mark Fossett and Cynthia Cready of Texas A&M, and Jill Kiecolt of Virginia Tech, also tested the sex ratio theory against education levels of African-American women and found that more educated women had better chances of finding mates.

"Of course, you would predict that college women would have the highest rate of marriage prevalence because they have the most resources to bring into a marriage market, but women with only a high school education rated very close to the college women," Albrecht said.

The reason for the close proximity is that women can actually educate themselves to the point that their chances of getting married decrease. Albrecht said this was due to the norm in our country that men are reluctant to marry women with higher education levels.

"Marriage rates for women with no high school education were low and remained relatively low even when you had equal numbers of men and women," she said. "The problem is if you are a woman with no high school education, you have fewer resources to offer a mate; therefore, you cannot compete in the marriage market where you could get married to an economically stable mate." **Steve urkel hunters**

When people of any race search the marriage market, both men and women consider education to be a valuable resource in the marriage market. Men, however generally place less emphasis on a woman's education and earnings potential and more emphasis on physical attractiveness, because men usually already have more economic stability than women. On the other hand, Albrecht said women tend to place an emphasis on whether a man has economic stability or "looks" as though he will be successful.

Sociologists claim when the sex ratio is imbalanced because of fewer men, women may either work harder to get a mate, which often means worrying more about their physical looks, or go after economic power themselves by getting higher levels of education and/or joining women's movements.

Since the data generally supported the researchers' predictions, they speculate that they may have identified factors that could help decrease poverty among African-American women in inner cities.

"We should provide opportunities and encouragement for women in high poverty areas to increase their education levels. It would make them more competitive in the marriage market and increase their economic stability if they divorce or remain single," Albrecht said.

"According to Guttentag and Secord, until you change the situation, the predictions will not change. To decrease poverty rates, you must increase resources of women and/or provide more ˜available men,'" she said._





this is exactly what i was saying, men are looking for looks and women are looking for money/status. This is why those 'women outnumber men' idea is a weak one. If a man has to pick between mother love and star jones, chances are, he'll choose to be single Big Grin

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
And to clear up the educational discrimination thing once and for all:

quote:
from http://www.csindy.com/csindy/2001-09-06/news.html:

The rude awakening

But some warn of problems if the number of women in college continues to grow as quickly as it has.

"If these college-educated women think they will find college-educated men to marry, they are in for a rude awakening," said Thomas Mortenson, a higher education policy analyst for the Iowa-based Center for the Study of Opportunity in Higher Education.

Dickson, who is currently writing a paper on the increased feminization of students, staff and faculty in higher education, said she has noticed more women in her classes saying it should be OK if women don't want to marry, or if they want to raise a child on their own.

"There is this expectation that you don't want to marry someone below you," said Dickson. "I tell them," she said, "that's true ... _if it's a choice._ But, I talk about this with my daughter all the time. _For large pools of black women, there is not an option."_

_Dickson said the trends are exaggerated in the African-American community, where 68 percent of college students are women. "Black women have been marrying less educated men for decades," she said. _


So yes, we do prefer educated men. Just like all other women. But unlike other women, we _are_ marrying less educated men because we want black men. You think those of us who have degrees are just golddiggers, but the truth is, if we really were just about superficial things and money, we would _not_ be waiting around for you.

d.



I never said that having a degree made blk women golddigeers, I said that those women that want Urkel after that THUG LIFE fails them, are golddiggers looking for Urkel to be their 'savior' and help them raise those kids.

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'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
_I never said 'all' of anything_. the term 'Blk people' refers to millions of folk, I need not find any point of reference that refers to 'all' of them, they are all different. My point is that some blk women are thug-thristy in their early relationships and then try to change that later. My main point again for them is to 'stick to the same plan'. If your first three babydaddies are in and out of jail thugs, why not try a 4th?? If you are not married at 30 or 35 because the thugs you dated were not into that kinda thing, too dayum bad. Leave urkel alone, like you have been doing....and blame yourself accordingly.


My point was never that _these_ women start going after the urkels. That was your point. My point was that your urkel never bothered to look at anyone who wasn't having kids out of wedlock or dating thugs. And again, you can't blame women for not knowing how to act without blaming the men who don't marry them, get locked up, father their kids, and leave them.



In Baltimore, being 'thug thristy' is very common...like many other cities. Why should Urkel have to search and search and search out non thug lovers if they are all over the place?? The problem is that the thug thirsty types are the ones that search out urkel later...maybe they should continue to find that 'thug' type,esp since that who she has been 'devoted' to for years..why change??

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
Immortal: I agree with you. I was looking at the incarceration rates for women and they have gone up dramatically, and yes, if we are excluding black men in prison, we also exclude black women. I disagree that the shortage is not significant, though, but only because black women have so little interest in men of other races and, as I said to Raheem, we are almost totally dependent on the numbers of black men in the US. But non-black women have far more marriage options than black women, so their pool of potential mates includes men of all races. That's the reason we aren't discussing a "white male" shortage.
Well whether you disagree or not is'nt the issue. The fact of the matter is the "shortage" is more hysterics than truth. all brothas are'nt either dead or in prison. Our number of death are VERY close with 145,908 for men, and 141,801 for women (U.S census)And like I said, unfortunately, by the close of ths decade, if trends continue there'll bee more of you in prison than us. Out of curiosity, at this time are you going to advocate that the 95% black men who don't date outside ther race start doing so? And why do you promote interracial dating as opposed to international? You being married to a african bro. and all?

******************************
Then I heard another voice say:"come out of her,my people,so that you will not share her sins,so that you will not receive her plagues, for her sins have piled up to heaven and YAH has remembered her crimes,give her back as much as she has given;pay her back double what she has done. Mix her a double portion from her own cup. Give her as much torture and grief as the glory and luxury she gave herself."(Revelations 18:4-7)
quote:

Djona, why are you posting some article from 1986 as proof? The most recent study that I've seen was done by the Census in 2001, and as I've said before the ratio is 90.6.



Your ratio is what you presume is the current ratio. My data is historical, and it show a trend that started apparently in the 1920s. It shows that the male shortage is nothing new, and is steadily worsening. That's why I cited both. Also, the 87% number is from 2000 (and is represented on the apalanet site in raw numbers (in 1000s). The numbers work fine for the other races, I don't see why they shouldn't for us. And there's no way the black male percentage could have increased by 3 points in 1 year, especially since it's been on the decline for so long, so I'll stick with the 87% figure for now. Also, the 38 mil number is from the 2002 census for people who checked black or black mixed. I'll find the link for you when I get home. There were two numbers, one for people who checked black exclusively, one for black mixed which most of us are. You number doesn't include the second set. That's the difference.


But to double check, I looked here http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/race/black/ppl-164/tab01.xls

for the numbers released in 2003. THese are raw numbers, so you have to do some crunching. Black mixed people in this chart fall into the "other" category, so we go with the black exclusive folks and we start with your figure of 36Mil. Of that number, 19.3Million are female, 16.722M are male. That means males are 16.722/19.3 = 86.6% of the female population. Slightly worse than 87%, I would say. It is current and it clearly fits the trend I have already demonstrated. I have no idea how you came up with 90.6%. Maybe you should post a link.


[This message was edited by djonmaila on December 08, 2003 at 04:35 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by Raheem:
statistics show that white women outnumber blk women in the US census The stats you posted doesn't support your final statement, esp. when you are talking about many many thousands of people/marriages


You're not making any sense. The statistics show that the white women you suggested are "growing" with black men are actually even less interested in struggling brothers than black women. So black women should marry less educated men or be single, but white women all deserve better educated men? And by the way, 95% of blacks marry black, so if you are trying to tell me that more white women are marrying lower income black men than black women are, I'd suggest you get your calculator checked. Wink
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:
FYI, Foxy...ALL heterosexual men feel entitled to be with beautiful women, not just the Urkels.

Secondly, Myra was cuter than Laura, simply for the fact that she didn't ask Urkel to change himself, clone himself, never led him on, etc. In fact, she and Laura were in the same social status. The thing is that Myra was an intelligent woman who also was a hottie. She loved Urkel and therefore was labeled a nerd by association. And folks with your mentality treated as such because you all seem so obsessed with putting Urkels in their places, in addition to searching for the next roughneck/thug flavor of the month, which is nothing but a twisted urbanized version of the alpha male.


good point, Myra was dime, laura was a penny Wink

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'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

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'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

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quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
posted by RadioRaheem:
not looking for a scapegoat, just trying to understand the reasoning behind such a decision, it seems a lil too 'picky', but that's just my opinion. If I were a single blk educated woman and had a chance to date a blue collar man or no date at all, i'd say a blue collar date has gotta be better than a bitter, lonely night at home.


The idea was that dating blue collar and not dating at all are not the only options out there, so it may be that all the waiting for and complaining about black men we do is fruitless. If there were enough blue-collar men to go around, things would be better, but even if everyone in jail got out and everyone who doesn't like black women turned around, there still aren't enough for all of the AA women. Maybe all the finger pointing on both sides and bad relationships and one-sided competition could be partly resolved if black women entered the global playing field with all the other women. It would certainly take some of the pressure off the men who feel black women have unrealistic expectations of them, and there would be less relationship frustration for the women in general. Otherwise, things won't be changing anytime soon.


i have been one of the only advocates for IR dating all around on this board, for all the united colors of benetton Big Grin




Ah, no you have not been the only one
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
Originally posted by Raheem:
statistics show that white women outnumber blk women in the US census The stats you posted doesn't support your final statement, esp. when you are talking about many many thousands of people/marriages


You're not making any sense. The statistics show that the white women you suggested are "growing" with black men are actually even less interested in struggling brothers than black women. So black women should marry less educated men or be single, but white women all deserve better educated men? And by the way, 95% of blacks marry black, so if you are trying to tell me that more white women are marrying lower income black men than black women are, I'd suggest you get your calculator checked. Wink



thThe raw numbers show that there are more white women in America than Black women. White women have less of a problem with IR dating than black women do. So of course they'll be alot of IR marriages with white women. The overall numbers of IR couples are really small in comparsion to the total marriage number. I suggest you read the words I write and not add an other thought to them

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'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

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quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
Originally posted by IMMORTAL LOGIC:

Okay djona lets talk raw numbers. U.S. Educational attainment of the population 25 years and over by sex and race 2002:
_Black males to attain bachelors degrees or more 1,460_(again, just for this year.)
_Black females to attain bachelors degrees or more 2,000 _ _So the difference in raw numbers is__540_
_Census for 2001:_
_Black males to attain bachelors degrees or more 1,466_
_Black females to attain bachelors degrees or more 1,858 __for a difference of__412_ _If you check year by year _you'll find the difference is only by a few hundred_. So dispite YOU OUTNUMBERING US there is no huge gap like some sistas would like to think. And that's not factoring in brothas who are blue collar, in the military, or small business owners. So if a few sistas here and there can't CONDESEND to being seen with one of those brothas tough._


I am positive if you check your source, you'll see that those numbers reflect numbers of students per hundred thousand. You can't seriously think that only 2000 sisters have degrees in the US. And it still proves my point. We black American women _are_ better educated.

1) I never said black women were'nt better educated than bros. just that you were'nt the ONLY ones. And 2)If you were to pay attention to what I actually wrote, you'd clearly see where I said "for this year." See, I told you the difference in graduation rates were about 1 point in difference which they are(16.4 vs.17.4). Then YOU told ME, that that it did'nt matter because there were SO MANY more black women than men so I gave you the actual numbers FOR THE LAST 3 YEARS. For the year 2002,o.k 2000 black women received a bachelors degree or more. Where as, in the same year 1,460 black men received abachelors degree or more. Again not overall JUST FOR THAT YEAR. it seems to me you are deliberatly trying to project a certain portrait of AA brothas.

from this link http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/p20-541.pdf

18% of black women and 16% of black men have degrees. 20.4 million blacks are over age 25. I don't have figures for the number by sex over age 25 but we can estimate roughly based on the 87% figure (which is likely lower than 87% since the male/female ration decreases with age starting at 18). If women outnumber men by 87% out of a pool of 20.4 million (20.4M = x + .87x, x = 10.9M, .87x = 9.5M), and 18% of the women have degrees, we have 1.98 million educated females. By the same token, we have 1.52 million educated males. That's a difference of few hundred _thousand_.

You do understand, this is for 2002 ONLY don't you.

**********************************
Then I heard another voice say:"come out of her,my people,so that you will not share her sins,so that you will not receive her plagues, for her sins have piled up to heaven and YAH has remembered her crimes,give her back as much as she has given;pay her back double what she has done. Mix her a double portion from her own cup. Give her as much torture and grief as the glory and luxury she gave herself."(Revelations 18:4-7)
quote:
Originally posted by keylargo:
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
posted by RadioRaheem:
not looking for a scapegoat, just trying to understand the reasoning behind such a decision, it seems a lil too 'picky', but that's just my opinion. If I were a single blk educated woman and had a chance to date a blue collar man or no date at all, i'd say a blue collar date has gotta be better than a bitter, lonely night at home.


The idea was that dating blue collar and not dating at all are not the only options out there, so it may be that all the waiting for and complaining about black men we do is fruitless. If there were enough blue-collar men to go around, things would be better, but even if everyone in jail got out and everyone who doesn't like black women turned around, there still aren't enough for all of the AA women. Maybe all the finger pointing on both sides and bad relationships and one-sided competition could be partly resolved if black women entered the global playing field with all the other women. It would certainly take some of the pressure off the men who feel black women have unrealistic expectations of them, and there would be less relationship frustration for the women in general. Otherwise, things won't be changing anytime soon.


i have been one of the only advocates for IR dating all around on this board, for all the united colors of benetton Big Grin




Ah, no you have not been the only one


i said one of the only ones dear...how r u this evening??

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
posted by IMMORTAL LOGIC:

Well whether you disagree or not is'nt the issue. The fact of the matter is the "shortage" is more hysterics than truth. all brothas are'nt either dead or in prison. Our number of death are VERY close with 145,908 for men, and 141,801 for women (U.S census)And like I said, unfortunately, by the close of ths decade, if trends continue there'll bee more of you in prison than us. ?


Please read my previous posts. The only people taking the shortage lightly at this point are the only black people it doesn't affect: men.

And the number of deaths is meaningless until you compare it to the number in the pool of living blacks. Given that there are fewer of you and that you are dying at higher rates, it doesn't seem real that anyone wouldn't think it was serious. And there will never be more women in prison than men. You guys are still at 95% overall. Our rates shot up higher than yours with tougher drug laws, but we are no where near your incarceration rates. I'm sure you saw that.



quote:
posted by IMMORTAL LOGIC:
Out of curiosity, at this time are you going to advocate that the 95% black men who don't date outside ther race start doing so? And why do you promote interracial dating as opposed to international? You being married to a african bro. and all


Clearly I don't have a problem with interracial marriages. And clearly, in the black community, black men have already discovered it. The reason I think it would help women in particular is that (for the nth time) there are 2.6 million more of us some of whom out of desperation are contributing demise of the black family. Women who can't find their own man are tapping into somebody else's, having kids out of wedlock, or putting up with bad men when they do find them. None of that helps the black family, and it certainly doesn't do much for our sanity as women. Look, the interracial door is already open for men. You don't need me to tell you that.

As for international dating, if the brother is African or African in descent, he's black. Those of us who accept the cultural differences are already marrying them. Unless you are suggesting 2.6 million of us all go back to Africa, African men won't make much dent in the problems here since those here are already counted in the census. Non-Africans are non-black, and there are plenty of them.


[This message was edited by djonmaila on December 08, 2003 at 04:48 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
_I never said 'all' of anything_. the term 'Blk people' refers to millions of folk, I need not find any point of reference that refers to 'all' of them, they are all different. My point is that some blk women are thug-thristy in their early relationships and then try to change that later. My main point again for them is to 'stick to the same plan'. If your first three babydaddies are in and out of jail thugs, why not try a 4th?? If you are not married at 30 or 35 because the thugs you dated were not into that kinda thing, too dayum bad. Leave urkel alone, like you have been doing....and blame yourself accordingly.


My point was never that _these_ women start going after the urkels. That was your point. My point was that your urkel never bothered to look at anyone who wasn't having kids out of wedlock or dating thugs. And again, you can't blame women for not knowing how to act without blaming the men who don't marry them, get locked up, father their kids, and leave them.



In Baltimore, being 'thug thristy' is very common...like many other cities. Why should Urkel have to search and search and search out non thug lovers if they are all over the place?? The problem is that the thug thirsty types are the ones that search out urkel later...maybe they should continue to find that 'thug' type,esp since that who she has been 'devoted' to for years..why change??



Radio, I'm a little annoyed by some of your posts. Personally, I've never been attracted to the thug type, but I applaud any woman who decides that it's time for her to do better. I'm not saying that she has to be a gold-digger but she should leave the thugs alone. Let the white girls have them because believe me, they want them too.


djonmaila, your posts are all right on point. Regardless of the statistics, we live and breath this debate everyday. I've seen what you've posted about with my own eyes. Of course the brothers don't understand because they are on the other side and see no wrong that may be in their doings. Not all of them are bad, but many are. We know that there some skanky black women out there too...

I have a lot of white girlfriends that date black guys. I think my white girlfriends have done us a favor by taking the black guys that they date out of circulation because most of them are dogs and users anyways.

The black male that is willing to appreciate a black female for who she is as an individual, is the type of guy I want to associate myself with. The rest can go to hell.
quote:
posted by Raheem:
In Baltimore, being 'thug thristy' is very common...like many other cities. Why should Urkel have to search and search and search out non thug lovers if they are all over the place?? The problem is that the thug thirsty types are the ones that search out urkel later...maybe they should continue to find that 'thug' type,esp since that who she has been 'devoted' to for years..why change??



Hehe. I went to school in B'more, and I know for a fact that the sisters who aren't "thug-thirsty" risk dying of dehydration. Which brings us back to the number problem, doesn't it?
quote:
Originally posted by keylargo:
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
_I never said 'all' of anything_. the term 'Blk people' refers to millions of folk, I need not find any point of reference that refers to 'all' of them, they are all different. My point is that some blk women are thug-thristy in their early relationships and then try to change that later. My main point again for them is to 'stick to the same plan'. If your first three babydaddies are in and out of jail thugs, why not try a 4th?? If you are not married at 30 or 35 because the thugs you dated were not into that kinda thing, too dayum bad. Leave urkel alone, like you have been doing....and blame yourself accordingly.


My point was never that _these_ women start going after the urkels. That was your point. My point was that your urkel never bothered to look at anyone who wasn't having kids out of wedlock or dating thugs. And again, you can't blame women for not knowing how to act without blaming the men who don't marry them, get locked up, father their kids, and leave them.



In Baltimore, being 'thug thristy' is very common...like many other cities. Why should Urkel have to search and search and search out non thug lovers if they are all over the place?? The problem is that the thug thirsty types are the ones that search out urkel later...maybe they should continue to find that 'thug' type,esp since that who she has been 'devoted' to for years..why change??



Radio, I'm a little annoyed by some of your posts. Personally, I've never been attracted to the thug type, but I applaud any woman who decides that it's time for her to do better. I'm not saying that she has to be a gold-digger but she should leave the thugs alone. Let the white girls have them because believe me, they want them too.


djonmaila, your posts are all right on point. Regardless of the statistics, we live and breath this debate everyday. I've seen what you've posted about with my own eyes. Of course the brothers don't understand because they are on the other side and see no wrong that may be in their doings. Not all of them are bad, but many are. We know that there some skanky black women out there too...

I have a lot of white girlfriends that date black guys. I think my white girlfriends have done us a favor by taking the black guys that they date out of circulation because most of them are dogs and users anyways.

The black male that is willing to appreciate a black female for who she is as an individual, is the type of guy I want to associate myself with. The rest can go to hell.



Thanks, Keylargo. They don't understand where we are because they've never been there.
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
And another one. This one is exactly what I have been saying. The whole damn article.

quote:
from http://www.tamu.edu/univrel/aggiedaily/news/stories/archive/012798-3.html:

Searching For Eligible Mates

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_COLLEGE STATION -- Ask any woman over 30 and she will say all the good men are taken.

A study by researchers at Texas A&M University and Virginia Tech gives new insight into the age-old questions of how and where we find eligible men and what happens when the supply decreases.

Their study, based on Guttentag's and Secord's sex ratio theory, found that eligible African-American men in metropolitan areas may be hard to find.

"The _theory_ predicts that when there are fewer men the following things will happen: marriage prevalence will decline, divorce rates will increase, rates of pre-marital sex will increase and out-of-wedlock pregnancies are predicted to increase," said Carol Albrecht, Texas A&M sociologist and lead author. "This is suppose to hold true for all races, but it has had a bigger impact on African-Americans in inner cities."

One reason the African-American community has been affected is that close to _95 percent of blacks tend to marry within their own race _, whereas Anglos and Hispanics are more likely to marry outside their race. According to a 1992 analysis by the Bureau of Census, there were only 246,000 black/white marriages and 53 million married couples.

In addition, it is more likely that high mortality rates in inner cities, a declining labor force and increasing incarceration of black men have caused the supply of eligible mates for African-American women to decrease.

Albrecht, with researchers Mark Fossett and Cynthia Cready of Texas A&M, and Jill Kiecolt of Virginia Tech, also tested the sex ratio theory against education levels of African-American women and found that more educated women had better chances of finding mates.

"Of course, you would predict that college women would have the highest rate of marriage prevalence because they have the most resources to bring into a marriage market, but women with only a high school education rated very close to the college women," Albrecht said.

The reason for the close proximity is that women can actually educate themselves to the point that their chances of getting married decrease. Albrecht said this was due to the norm in our country that men are reluctant to marry women with higher education levels.

_"Marriage rates for women with no high school education were low and remained relatively low even when you had equal numbers of men and women," she said. "The problem is if you are a woman with no high school education, you have fewer resources to offer a mate; therefore, you cannot compete in the marriage market where you could get married to an economically stable mate." _ **Steve urkel hunters**

When people of any race search the marriage market, both men and women consider education to be a valuable resource in the marriage market. _Men, however generally place less emphasis on a woman's education and earnings potential and more emphasis on physical attractiveness, because men usually already have more economic stability than women._ On the other hand, Albrecht said women tend to place an emphasis on whether a man has economic stability or "looks" as though he will be successful.

Sociologists claim when the sex ratio is imbalanced because of fewer men, women may either work harder to get a mate, which often means worrying more about their physical looks, or go after economic power themselves by getting higher levels of education and/or joining women's movements.

Since the data generally supported the researchers' predictions, they speculate that they may have identified factors that could help decrease poverty among African-American women in inner cities.

"We should provide opportunities and encouragement for women in high poverty areas to increase their education levels. It would make them more competitive in the marriage market and increase their economic stability if they divorce or remain single," Albrecht said.

"According to Guttentag and Secord, until you change the situation, the predictions will not change. To decrease poverty rates, you must increase resources of women and/or provide more ˜available men,'" she said._





this is exactly what i was saying, men are looking for looks and women are looking for money/status. This is why those 'women outnumber men' idea is a weak one. If a man has to pick between mother love and star jones, chances are, he'll choose to be single


That's hilarious. If you had actually read it, you'll see that it suggests the numbers theory is valid and a real problem. It says:

"Their study, based on Guttentag's and Secord's sex ratio theory, found that eligible African-American men in metropolitan areas may be hard to find. "

and

"The _theory_ predicts that when there are fewer men the following things will happen: marriage prevalence will decline, divorce rates will increase, rates of pre-marital sex will increase and out-of-wedlock pregnancies are predicted to increase," said Carol Albrecht, Texas A&M sociologist and lead author. "This is suppose to hold true for all races, but it has had a bigger impact on African-Americans in inner cities."

and

"Sociologists claim when the sex ratio is imbalanced because of fewer men, women may either work harder to get a mate, which often means worrying more about their physical looks, or go after economic power themselves by getting higher levels of education and/or joining women's movements."

So which article did you read? And ignoring the fact that you just compared us all to Star Jones, in all your years in B'more, did you ever happen to notice how big the there brothers are? No disrespect, but you're average B'more black man is the last one to call a black woman fat. The last one. Ya'll some big boned people. And if you think fat and uneducated and 2 baby's mommas is a good urkel, we need to talk.
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
Originally posted by Raheem:
statistics show that white women outnumber blk women in the US census The stats you posted doesn't support your final statement, esp. when you are talking about many many thousands of people/marriages


You're not making any sense. The statistics show that the white women you suggested are "growing" with black men are actually even less interested in struggling brothers than black women. So black women should marry less educated men or be single, but white women all deserve better educated men? And by the way, 95% of blacks marry black, so if you are trying to tell me that more white women are marrying lower income black men than black women are, I'd suggest you get your calculator checked. Wink



thThe raw numbers show that there are more white women in America than Black women. White women have less of a problem with IR dating than black women do. So of course they'll be alot of IR marriages with white women. The overall numbers of IR couples are really small in comparsion to the total marriage number. I suggest you read the words I write and not add an other thought to them

***********************************************************



I apologize if I assumed you had a thought. So which stats don't support what I said? That white women don't generally marry less educated/wealthy black men or that urkel is really going after less educated white women because the rest don't want him either. Because I'm sure I just showed you both, unless somehow the statistics are telling a completely different story than the actual numbers they are based on.
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
Originally posted by Raheem:
statistics show that white women outnumber blk women in the US census The stats you posted doesn't support your final statement, esp. when you are talking about many many thousands of people/marriages


You're not making any sense. The statistics show that the white women you suggested are "growing" with black men are actually even less interested in struggling brothers than black women. So black women should marry less educated men or be single, but white women all deserve better educated men? And by the way, 95% of blacks marry black, so if you are trying to tell me that more white women are marrying lower income black men than black women are, I'd suggest you get your calculator checked. Wink



thThe raw numbers show that there are more white women in America than Black women. White women have less of a problem with IR dating than black women do. So of course they'll be alot of IR marriages with white women. The overall numbers of IR couples are really small in comparsion to the total marriage number. I suggest you read the words I write and not add an other thought to them

***********************************************************



I apologize if I assumed you had a thought. So which stats don't support what I said? That white women don't generally marry less educated/wealthy black men or that urkel is really going after less educated white women because the rest don't want him either. Because I'm sure I just showed you both, unless somehow the statistics are telling a completely different story than the actual numbers they are based on.



I think you have diluted my point down to whatever you thought in the first place. The fact is that many IR couples [blk men white women] begin in college and when the guy is in the military...those are the two groups of blk men that are MORE likely to date/marry IR. College and military people are among the poorest people in society, so that point you TRIED to make about the women not being very well educated or wealthy is not point at all. If HE has a masters and she just has less education cant not cover up the fact that she supported him while he was building or developing. That's the point. If blk women want educated blk men, start looking for them, not 50 cents type, in college. It seems that dating college men seems to be benearth many blk women...that's a choice she wish she didn't make later [like the orignial post article said about that woman at age 45]

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
Originally posted by keylargo:
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
_I never said 'all' of anything_. the term 'Blk people' refers to millions of folk, I need not find any point of reference that refers to 'all' of them, they are all different. My point is that some blk women are thug-thristy in their early relationships and then try to change that later. My main point again for them is to 'stick to the same plan'. If your first three babydaddies are in and out of jail thugs, why not try a 4th?? If you are not married at 30 or 35 because the thugs you dated were not into that kinda thing, too dayum bad. Leave urkel alone, like you have been doing....and blame yourself accordingly.


My point was never that _these_ women start going after the urkels. That was your point. My point was that your urkel never bothered to look at anyone who wasn't having kids out of wedlock or dating thugs. And again, you can't blame women for not knowing how to act without blaming the men who don't marry them, get locked up, father their kids, and leave them.



In Baltimore, being 'thug thristy' is very common...like many other cities. Why should Urkel have to search and search and search out non thug lovers if they are all over the place?? The problem is that the thug thirsty types are the ones that search out urkel later...maybe they should continue to find that 'thug' type,esp since that who she has been 'devoted' to for years..why change??



Radio, I'm a little annoyed by some of your posts. Personally, I've never been attracted to the thug type, but I applaud any woman who decides that it's time for her to do better. I'm not saying that she has to be a gold-digger but she should leave the thugs alone. Let the white girls have them because believe me, they want them too.


djonmaila, your posts are all right on point. Regardless of the statistics, we live and breath this debate everyday. I've seen what you've posted about with my own eyes. Of course the brothers don't understand because they are on the other side and see no wrong that may be in their doings. Not all of them are bad, but many are. We know that there some skanky black women out there too...

I have a lot of white girlfriends that date black guys. I think my white girlfriends have done us a favor by taking the black guys that they date out of circulation because most of them are dogs and users anyways.

The black male that is willing to appreciate a black female for who she is as an individual, is the type of guy I want to associate myself with. The rest can go to hell.


it's not a specific statement to you. It's a trend that is common among young blk women, esp in HS and college. The thug boy is their 'ideal' man. Someone stated that this may be a kinda 'Alpha male' or the 'take charge' kinda guy in many women's minds. Many of those guys have harems, so they must be desireable and popular Wink

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
your statement of ' So it looks like urkel doesn't have an educated white woman to grow with, either. But I guess if the idea was just that she isn't black ...'


the statement you quoted from said 'In black-black couples, the tendency for black women to marry down has increased , but this is due to changes in population composition. In couples where the husband is black and the wife is white, there is a persistent tendency for the wife to marry up.'


Women, since the beginning of time have been marrying men with alot of money..that's a raceless fact. The idea that the white woman dated a blk man who was poor [college or military] is not included in that stat..it spoke about marriage and didn't even tell if it was the earning on that wedding day or after some time.[BIG POINT!!!]. They use the word 'tendency' and says that it 'increased', yet never gave real number stats that proved that point...why not?? COuld it be that blk women and white women both marry for money?? I think so


'Tendencies' can be analyzed any number of ways, for example did you know that the fastest growing religion in the USA is Islam?? Does that mean that all americans are becoming muslims??? No, it means that of the growing religions, Islam has the fastest growth, not the highest number. For those that are changing religions, the TENDENCY is to become a muslim.

If the stat/tendency was talking about the amount he and she earn when they met, then you can see that she 'for the most part' was down with him when he was down. You can now see how your above statement is NOT supported by that quote Wink



..again i ask, why can't blk women do that??...i've asked that same question at least five times to many people here.

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream

[This message was edited by RadioRaheem on December 08, 2003 at 05:49 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
posted by Raheem:
In Baltimore, being 'thug thristy' is very common...like many other cities. Why should Urkel have to search and search and search out non thug lovers if they are all over the place?? The problem is that the thug thirsty types are the ones that search out urkel later...maybe they should continue to find that 'thug' type,esp since that who she has been 'devoted' to for years..why change??



Hehe. I went to school in B'more, and I know for a fact that the sisters who _aren't_ "thug-thirsty" risk dying of dehydration. Which brings us back to the number problem, doesn't it?


you describe bmore based off of your observations, bmore also has a high school for pregnant moms, which is over crowded and has a waiting list, sounds like they are starting off early, eh??

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
posted by Raheem:
white men outearn white women, esp with so many stay at home white moms.


Black men outearn black women, and we are _still_ more likely to marry down economically than white women. So what's your point?


if the white woman is a stay at home mom,she has no income...so he hubby outearn her...so to say that blk women are more likely to outearn her hubby is a non-point...a lil boy in that house with a paper route earns more money than a stay at home mom Roll Eyes

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
And another one. This one is exactly what I have been saying. The whole damn article.

quote:
from http://www.tamu.edu/univrel/aggiedaily/news/stories/archive/012798-3.html:

Searching For Eligible Mates

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_COLLEGE STATION -- Ask any woman over 30 and she will say all the good men are taken.

A study by researchers at Texas A&M University and Virginia Tech gives new insight into the age-old questions of how and where we find eligible men and what happens when the supply decreases.

Their study, based on Guttentag's and Secord's sex ratio theory, found that eligible African-American men in metropolitan areas may be hard to find.

_"The _theory_ predicts that when there are fewer men the following things will happen: marriage prevalence will decline, divorce rates will increase, rates of pre-marital sex will increase and out-of-wedlock pregnancies are predicted to increase," said Carol Albrecht, Texas A&M sociologist and lead author. "This is suppose to hold true for all races, but it has had a bigger impact on African-Americans in inner cities." _

One reason the African-American community has been affected is that close to _95 percent of blacks tend to marry within their own race _, whereas Anglos and Hispanics are more likely to marry outside their race. According to a 1992 analysis by the Bureau of Census, there were only 246,000 black/white marriages and 53 million married couples.

In addition, it is more likely that high mortality rates in inner cities, a declining labor force and increasing incarceration of black men have caused the supply of eligible mates for African-American women to decrease.

Albrecht, with researchers Mark Fossett and Cynthia Cready of Texas A&M, and Jill Kiecolt of Virginia Tech, also tested the sex ratio theory against education levels of African-American women and found that more educated women had better chances of finding mates.

"Of course, you would predict that college women would have the highest rate of marriage prevalence because they have the most resources to bring into a marriage market, but women with only a high school education rated very close to the college women," Albrecht said.

The reason for the close proximity is that women can actually educate themselves to the point that their chances of getting married decrease. Albrecht said this was due to the norm in our country that men are reluctant to marry women with higher education levels.

_"Marriage rates for women with no high school education were low and remained relatively low even when you had equal numbers of men and women," she said. "The problem is if you are a woman with no high school education, you have fewer resources to offer a mate; therefore, you cannot compete in the marriage market where you could get married to an economically stable mate." _ **Steve urkel hunters**

When people of any race search the marriage market, both men and women consider education to be a valuable resource in the marriage market. _Men, however generally place less emphasis on a woman's education and earnings potential and more emphasis on physical attractiveness, because men usually already have more economic stability than women._ On the other hand, Albrecht said women tend to place an emphasis on whether a man has economic stability or "looks" as though he will be successful.

Sociologists claim when the sex ratio is imbalanced because of fewer men, women may either work harder to get a mate, which often means worrying more about their physical looks, or go after economic power themselves by getting higher levels of education and/or joining women's movements.

Since the data generally supported the researchers' predictions, they speculate that they may have identified factors that could help decrease poverty among African-American women in inner cities.

"We should provide opportunities and encouragement for women in high poverty areas to increase their education levels. It would make them more competitive in the marriage market and increase their economic stability if they divorce or remain single," Albrecht said.

"According to Guttentag and Secord, until you change the situation, the predictions will not change. To decrease poverty rates, you must increase resources of women and/or provide more ˜available men,'" she said._





this is exactly what i was saying, men are looking for looks and women are looking for money/status. _This is why those 'women outnumber men' idea is a weak one._ If a man has to pick between mother love and star jones, chances are, he'll choose to be single


That's hilarious. If you had actually read it, you'll see that it suggests the numbers theory is valid and a real problem. It says:

_"Their study, based on Guttentag's and Secord's sex ratio theory, found that eligible African-American men in metropolitan areas may be hard to find. "_

and

_"The _theory_ predicts that when there are fewer men the following things will happen: marriage prevalence will decline, divorce rates will increase, rates of pre-marital sex will increase and out-of-wedlock pregnancies are predicted to increase," said Carol Albrecht, Texas A&M sociologist and lead author. "This is suppose to hold true for all races, but it has had a bigger impact on African-Americans in inner cities."_

and

_"Sociologists claim when the sex ratio is imbalanced because of fewer men, women may either work harder to get a mate, which often means worrying more about their physical looks, or go after economic power themselves by getting higher levels of education and/or joining women's movements."_

So which article did you read? And ignoring the fact that you just compared us all to Star Jones, in all your years in B'more, did you ever happen to notice how big the there brothers are? No disrespect, but you're average B'more black man is the last one to call a black woman fat. The _last_ one. Ya'll some big boned people. And if you think fat and uneducated and 2 baby's mommas is a good urkel, we need to talk.


it doesn't matter the numbers because if the women are not desired, they are not likely to get dates. If star jones is all that is out there [her being educated and all] and not very attractive, then single men may pass her up and remain single...again, if it is the man's choice, and he's likely gonna choose beauty over brains [or any other quality the woman wants to be judged on]..much like you were saying that women like degreed men. It's his choice. Well if the degreed man is desired by star jones. tracy chapman, macy gray, and mother love, that degreed man may choose other, because it is his choice to make who he dates. You seethat's four single black women looking for love, but none are desired, that's why your numbers dont matter..plus add to that that people hve to have chemistry too. Now you see why a woman refusin to date a blue collar man/degreeless man ONLY harms her chances of marriage or relationships?? I say women should go out on as many dates as possible to open the game to all races as possible to INCREASE the chances of finding Mr. right...if not, she'll be a Tracy Chapman/Star JOnes in a room full of Denzels [translation: she'll find those men that she heavily desires, but herself is not very desireable to those men she wants ]..i hope that adds some clarity for you

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream

[This message was edited by RadioRaheem on December 08, 2003 at 06:07 PM.]
quote:
posted by Raheem:
I think you have diluted my point down to whatever you thought in the first place. The fact is that many IR couples [blk men white women] begin in college and when the guy is in the military...those are the two groups of blk men that are MORE likely to date/marry IR. College and military people are among the poorest people in society, so that point you TRIED to make about the women not being very well educated or wealthy is not point at all. If HE has a masters and she just has less education cant not cover up the fact that she supported him while he was building or developing. That's the point.


Is this opinion or fact? The problem is you haven't proved any of it. You are telling me that white women are "building" black men black men but where's your proof? You show me that black men aren't leaving black partners who were with them while they were poorer to marry white women when they have money. You show me. Because there's data right in one of the articles I posted that says the exact opposite. Black men who marry black women first are more likely to marry white women when they're older. After all the work I have done showing you the holes in your theory, the least you can do is meet me half way. Prove something.

And the bit about military men marrying out at higher rates proves nothing about white and other women being more appreciative of black men. They have higher interracial rates, but especially higher international rates. It does suggest that foreign women like the idea of marrying American men, and it doesn't hurt that for many of them, government housing and a 92 Civic is the lap of luxury, again proving that women of all colors like to marry "up", not that they love struggling brothers more than we do. Also, college kids are not among the poorest people in this country. Most of them are from middle class backgrounds or better, and on daddy's money alone are worth more than an someone unemployed.



quote:
posted by Raheem:
If blk women want educated blk men, start looking for them, not 50 cents type, in college. It seems that dating college men seems to be benearth many blk women...that's a choice she wish she didn't make later [like the orignial post article said about that woman at age 45]


WHERE ARE THEY??!?!?!?Point us to the cave so we can dig them out. Because until they surface, there are a hell of a lot more thugs running around these days. And for the record, many of us who are married met our husbands IN COLLEGE. And it's true, those women who wait too long to get started often find themselves left out. Big surprise. They are all taken by age 45.

[This message was edited by djonmaila on December 10, 2003 at 07:31 PM.]
quote:
posted by Raheem:
it doesn't matter the numbers because if the women are not desired, they are not likely to get dates. If star jones is all that is ot there [her being educated and all] and not very attractive, then single men may pass her up and remain single...again, if it is the man's choice, he's gonna choose beauty..much like you were saying that women like degreed men. Well if the degreed man is desired by star jones. tracy chapman, macy gray, and mother love, that degreed man may choose other, because it is his choice to make who he dates. You see that's four single black women looking for love, but none are desired, that's why your numbers dont matter..plus add to that that people hve to have chemistry too. Now you see why a woman refusin to date a blue collar man/degreeless man ONLY harms her chances of marriage or relationships?? I say women should go out on as many dates as possible to open the game to all races as possible to INCREASE the chances of finding Mr. right...if not, she'll be a Tracy Chapman/Star JOnes in a room full of Denzels [translation: she'll find those men that she heavily desires, but herself is not very desireable to those men she wants ]..i hope that adds some clarity for you



And the truth finally comes out. So all this talk about us being superficial and wanting nothing but thugs and not derserving even an urkel was just a nice way to tell us you think we are too ugly for black men. So screw looking for a good man, a hard worker, an educated, driven brother. Don't even think about an attractive one. Grab what you can, because nobody wants you anyway, right? Black men marry white women not because they are helping build anybody - they marry up more than black women. They go after white women because they can't stand to look at women who look like their mothers. Women whom you seem to think make black men all look like Denzel.

Yet you still can't admit that you own your own problems, can you? You don't like black women because you don't like them, so any problem we have you blame on us. This has nothing to do with being right, or being fair, or even making sense. This is your demon, you just haven't figured out that it owns you. But that's Baltimore for you. No surprise there. At least now we know what we're dealing with.
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
posted by IMMORTAL LOGIC:

Well whether you disagree or not is'nt the issue. The fact of the matter is the "shortage" is more hysterics than truth. all brothas are'nt either dead or in prison. Our number of death are VERY close with 145,908 for men, and 141,801 for women (U.S census)And like I said, unfortunately, by the close of ths decade, if trends continue there'll bee more of you in prison than us. ?


Please read my previous posts. The only people taking the shortage lightly at this point are the only black people it doesn't affect: men.

And the number of deaths is meaningless until you compare it to the number in the pool of living blacks. Given that there are fewer of you _and_ that you are dying at higher rates, it doesn't seem real that anyone wouldn't think it was serious. And there will never be more women in prison than men. You guys are still at 95% overall. Our rates shot up higher than yours with tougher drug laws, but we are no where near your incarceration rates. I'm sure you saw that.



quote:
posted by IMMORTAL LOGIC:
Out of curiosity, at this time are you going to advocate that the 95% black men who don't date outside ther race start doing so? And why do you promote interracial dating as opposed to international? You being married to a african bro. and all


Clearly I don't have a problem with interracial marriages. And clearly, in the black community, black men have already discovered it. The reason I think it would help women in particular is that (for the nth time) there are 2.6 million more of us some of whom out of desperation are contributing demise of the black family. Women who can't find their own man are tapping into somebody else's, having kids out of wedlock, or putting up with bad men when they do find them. None of that helps the black family, and it certainly doesn't do much for our sanity as women. Look, the interracial door is already open for men. You don't need me to tell you that.

As for international dating, if the brother is African or African in descent, he's black. Those of us who accept the cultural differences are already marrying them. Unless you are suggesting 2.6 million of us all go back to Africa, African men won't make much dent in the problems here since those here are already counted in the census. Non-Africans are non-black, and there are plenty of them.


[This message was edited by djonmaila on December 08, 2003 at 04:48 PM.]



i hear you mama, i hear you. but consider another p.o.v. i'm just guessing that you are a young, single, educated, sista who is feeling over-whelmed by these statistics of the lack of available brothas; but be encouraged because that's all they are, statistics. don't worry your little head about what magazine said what and that research said this; if you hope to marry a man all you only need is one of these men and that should be your focus. judge for yourself by what you actually see as an individual when you are out and about; these articles are becoming your reality. many black women are not going to marry because they believe in the hype, not because "all the good men are taken".you must make an individual decision if you will be apart of this group of forever lonelys or not. don't take the generalizations and exaggerations literally. where ever you are, there are enough single, educated men for you to deal with. unless you're a hermit, i'm sure you cross paths with enough single, educated, black men to keep you busy, but you're mind is probably fixed on some new gender gap report you just read. open your eyes and be aware of your surroundings whether it be at college, work, church, your community; you can't honestly say that you never witness together looking brothas without wedding rings. any given college has single brothas within the student body, not nearly as much as women, but they do exist. i'm taking classes at night at the local university and there is a big difference of the number of sistas walking to and fro class compared to that of brothas, but nevertheless, i always run into other black bachelors in my class just like i do at work and the gym, brothas i went to high school with, etc.; why don't you. don't worry about the whole single black female population and worry about your own future and be encouraged.
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
posted by Raheem:
it doesn't matter the numbers because if the women are not desired, they are not likely to get dates. If star jones is all that is ot there [her being educated and all] and not very attractive, then single men may pass her up and remain single...again, if it is the man's choice, he's gonna choose beauty..much like you were saying that women like degreed men. Well if the degreed man is desired by star jones. tracy chapman, macy gray, and mother love, that degreed man may choose other, because it is his choice to make who he dates. _You see that's four single black women looking for love, but none are desired, that's why your numbers dont matter_..plus add to that that people hve to have chemistry too. Now you see why a woman refusin to date a blue collar man/degreeless man ONLY harms her chances of marriage or relationships?? I say women should go out on as many dates as possible to open the game to all races as possible to INCREASE the chances of finding Mr. right...if not, she'll be a Tracy Chapman/Star JOnes in a room full of Denzels [translation: she'll find those men that she heavily desires, but herself is not very desireable to those men she wants ]..i hope that adds some clarity for you



And the truth finally comes out. So all this talk about us being superficial and wanting nothing but thugs and not derserving even an urkel was just a nice way to tell us you think we are too ugly for black men. So screw looking for a good man, a hard worker, an educated, driven brother. Don't even think about an attractive one. Grab what you can, because nobody wants you anyway, right? Black men marry white women not because they are helping build anybody - they marry up more than black women. They go after white women because they can't stand to look at women who look like their mothers. Women whom you seem to think make black men all look like Denzel.

Yet you still can't admit that you own your own problems, can you? You don't like black women because you don't like them, so any problem we have you blame on us. This has nothing to do with being right, or being fair, or even making sense. This is your demon, you just haven't figured out that it owns you. But that's Baltimore for you. No surprise there. At least now we know what we're dealing with.



ms. djon.....come back to reality...don't take what RR says as gospel....majority of black men love black women.....it's somebody for everybody....tracey chapman and star jones got somebody loving them to death too. angel
I'm sorry that I can't respond to you guys as frequently but I'm a night owl and a student, so...

First to Henry38 thanks applepie I get turned on by men with the same vigor, so I understand, that's why I mentioned Bill Maher as one of my many intellectual crushes. That song "Mind Sex" is so on point. I just love a man who can challenge me intellectually. I'm a sucker for male sesquipedalians, "Use big words w/ me daddy, yeah baby yeah!"

And speaking of intellect: Raheem you seem to purposely want to end any discussions with me by responding with shorter and more misinterpretated replies. I mean if you don't want to challenge my arguments then start employing the tatics that you used a while back: if memory serves me correctly, weren't you on a one-word response campaign? To wit [you]: interesting. You've repeatedly inferred that "bad boy" enthusiasts are UNIQUE to young black women. And I challenged you by asking you to explain ONE phenomena like why Asian/Asian American women marry out, with white men especially, at such a high rate when it is clear that Asian/Asian American men are in general better providers (intellectually and economically) in comparison to white and black men. No one is dimissing the fact that "bad boys," aka "thugs" in the black community, are a popular choice among young women. I'm refuting YOUR notion that this is only UNIQUE to young black women, which is why Asian American women, AMONG OTHERS, make your notion BASELESS.

And, again, Raheem babe what does "white women hitting on black men" mean? What does that support? We're arguing the thug vs. the [black] nerd. And I highly doubt [black] nerds are in the gym; that is the best oxymoron I've read all day. I'm not against IRs and I think you keep sidetracking the discussion in the assumption that I am and it is highly distracting. The conversation from my perspective is about what young black women prefer in comparison to young non-black women. So let's make this clear I don't care about Becky and Tyrone and I wish them the best, now let's get back to why you believe that black women are the only group of superficial women? Again, your argument is based on what? Because Asian men have the same claim against Asian women.
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:
FYI, Foxy...ALL heterosexual men feel entitled to be with beautiful women, not just the Urkels.

Secondly, Myra was cuter than Laura, simply for the fact that she didn't ask Urkel to change himself, clone himself, never led him on, etc. In fact, she and Laura were in the same social status. The thing is that Myra was an intelligent woman who also was a hottie. She loved Urkel and therefore was labeled a nerd by association. And folks with your mentality treated as such because you all seem so obsessed with putting Urkels in their places, in addition to searching for the next roughneck/thug flavor of the month, which is nothing but a twisted urbanized version of the alpha male.


Huey, baby, I have this sneaky suspicion (call it woman's intuition) that you just skimmed over my response(s). I know I can be long-winded but in order for you to correctly argue me shouldn't you interpret my comments in the proper context? First, I could've sworn I said "if men..."

Secondly, "Laura and Myra had the same social staus?" I haven't recently been watching the re-runs but I couldv'e sworn Myra attended a private school for teenage prodigies. And didn't Myra play a special intstrument (like Urkel who played the accordian)? I think she played the tuba. She didn't dress like Laura either, she was always in loose baby doll dresses and wasn't as graceful and stylish as Laura. Laura wore more make-up and always had various hairstyles. Most importantly Laura had girlfriends and a bestfriend, Myra on the other hand was always solo and the third wheel. I mean are you saying in reality that Myra could fit in the same social circle as Laura with her fetish for nerds and not be called a "white girl or a mess?" And how long did it take Urkel to requite Myra's love? I'm using my memory again but it was long after he realized that his love for Laura was unrequited that he gave Myra a chance and even then he was still referring back to his lingering love for Laura. Need I mention his alter ego Stephan? So you're being ridiculous.

Hmm..."folks with my mentality?" At least we read an individual's comments thoroughly.
quote:
Originally posted by LilFoxyBrwnIntellectual:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Huey:
FYI, Foxy...ALL heterosexual men feel entitled to be with beautiful women, not just the Urkels.

Secondly, Myra was cuter than Laura, simply for the fact that she didn't ask Urkel to change himself, clone himself, never led him on, etc. In fact, she and Laura were in the same social status. The thing is that Myra was an intelligent woman who also was a hottie. She loved Urkel and therefore was labeled a nerd by association. And folks with your mentality treated as such because you all seem so obsessed with putting Urkels in their places, in addition to searching for the next roughneck/thug flavor of the month, which is nothing but a twisted urbanized version of the alpha male.


Huey, baby, I have this sneaky suspicion (call it woman's intuition) that you just skimmed over my response(s). I know I can be long-winded but in order for you to correctly argue me shouldn't you interpret my comments in the proper context? First, I could've sworn I said "if men..."

Secondly, "Laura and Myra had the same social staus?" I haven't recently been watching the re-runs but I couldv'e sworn Myra attended a private school for teenage prodigies. [QUOTE]

-->The bottom line is that they were both high school students. Myra did attend a private school, then later transferred to the same public that Urkel and Laura attended.

BTW, what black guy on earth (besides Thomas Sowell) wants to get with Ann Coulter? She conservative and Republican...and lumping her Pamela Anderson? That's like lumping Louis Farrakhan with Martin Lawrence. rotflmao

I think you need take your own advice about reading a person's comments, LFBI.

[This message was edited by Huey on December 09, 2003 at 12:21 AM.]

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