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quote:
Originally posted by IMMORTAL LOGIC:
A bunch of poster(like Djonmaila) putting up there little "wacky facts" About brothas most are just opinions and stereotypes,(no, black women are NOT the only women to be better educated than their men. All women in this country are better educated,and the difference between us is like what, one point,if even.


Let's be clear. You are talking about percentages. I am talking about numbers. If white women are going to school at similar rates as white men, then there are similar numbers of educated white males and females. If black males and females go to school at the same rates, there are still more educated black women than men at the end of the day BECAUSE WE OUTNUMBER YOU. That is a fact, not an opinion. If there are 50 bms in the world by age 35 and 80 bfs and half of each have degrees, if we try to pair up the degree-holders, somebody doesn't have a date. So like I was saying before, an educated black man still has more black options than his female colleagues. You should also note that while enrollment rates at colleges are slightly higher for white women than men (a new trend), for graduation rates, white men are still ahead, meaning that white women are not better educated than white men.

I read the rest of your post, and I don't disagree with you. Black men are not children, and they are certainly no more brainwashed than we are. For every black man out there who prefers blondes, there's at least one sister spending half her paycheck on weaves, perms, and peroxide. I do not think this is an indictment of men in the issue of black relationships, and you should understand that the next time you lump me with another poster who does.

djona.


[This message was edited by djonmaila on December 07, 2003 at 12:31 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
If black males and females go to school at the same rates, there are still more educated black women than men at the end of the day _BECAUSE WE OUTNUMBER YOU_. That is a fact, not an opinion.
Point of correction, say in America. Because if you are talking about the rest of the black world, Africa and the Caribbean that statment is not true. 600 million Africans, even if 30 percent are educated that means 180 million educated blacks and in this part of the world the biggest percentage is the black male.

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quote:
Originally posted by henry38:
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
If black males and females go to school at the same rates, there are still more educated black women than men at the end of the day _BECAUSE WE OUTNUMBER YOU_. That is a fact, not an opinion.
Point of correction, say in America. Because if you are talking about the rest of the black world, Africa and the Caribbean that statment is not true. 600 million Africans, even if 30 percent are educated that means 180 million educated blacks and in this part of the world the biggest percentage is the black male.

_____________________________



Point taken.

[This message was edited by djonmaila on December 06, 2003 at 08:26 AM.]
Maybe here lies the whole problem with this discussion and others like it. This is the INTERNET and it means what we say on it should reflect general black opinions otherwise we must keep pointing out we are talking about blacks in a specific place which in this case is America that means a mere 7-8 percent of the black race. If we fail to do that we are majoring in the micro and the views expressed can become terribly misleading to the rest of the world that is not black

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I acknowledged your point, but I do think it's a minor one. We were talking about black american women to begin with, and that should have been clear. While the majority of black educated people in the world are male, that doesn't do much good for a sister in law school in Chicago, and that was the kind of sister we were talking about. I seriously doubt anyone would confuse our situation here with what is going on elsewhere, and no one in their right mind would propose that women are better educated than men anywhere in the third world. If there is such a country, I haven't heard of it.

So to clarify: No, the rest of the black world is not facing the same situation we do here in the states; Yes, educated black women in the states outnumber educated black men.

djona.


[This message was edited by djonmaila on December 06, 2003 at 08:27 AM.]
Thanks djonmaila. I know you acknowledged my point. I am just trying to draw your attention to the fact that if we looked at things as black people as ONE people across boundaries what looks as massive problems becomes minor. If we take this topic as an example and looked at it as a general black problem then you would see Black women are not scaring off black men

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quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
I acknowledged your point, but I do think it's a minor one. We were talking about black american women to begin with, and that should have been clear. While the majority of black educated people in the _world_ are male, that doesn't do much good for a sister in law school in Chicago, and that was the kind of sister we were talking about. I seriously doubt anyone would confuse our situation here with what is going on elsewhere, and no one in their right mind would propose that women are better educated than men anywhere in the third world. If there is such a country, I haven't heard of it.

So to clarify: No, the rest of the black world is not facing the same situation we do here in the states; Yes, educated black women in the states outnumber educated black men.

djona.


[This message was edited by djonmaila on December 06, 2003 at 08:27 AM.]



why can't she love a man without a degree?? Is it possible for her to care for, love, and support a degree-less man??

why is that a requirement to dating/marriage??

If she was so attracted to dating the educated, shouldn't she have pursued that love in undergrad school with classmates??

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

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'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
Wow I'm late but I'll post my opinion anyway. First I've read through a great deal of everyone's posts and my first question is to the individuals who are basically WHINING: I mean it seems you guys can't take the HEAT? There's great irony in the fact that these guys are huffing and puffing over some bias (future Republicans if not already) when none of you have conceded to so-called "truths." The so-called relationship problems between black men and women is not unilateral and will always remain bilateral (or even multilateral) that is the TRUTH. It's a Republican/Democrat or Palestinian/Jew battle it takes two to tangle. Both black men and women are at FAULT.

Then there is this misconception that young black women (I'm 22 so I guess I'm in that group) are the only ones who go after "bad boys." When studies show that across racial lines young women tend to believe more in Western society's fascade of masculinity. If young Asian and white women were so above the superficial why is it that Asian men are at the end of their mate courting lists? Rap consumers are 60% white and there isn't a huge gender gap in that number, so that means white women are also swooning over 50 Cent-like black men. And I've even heard a few black men who aren't thugs complain that they've been dumped by white women who've said that they "Weren't black enough." So it's weak to come one here and mislead anyone into believing that white women especially are above the superficial when the Rock N' Roll/Heavy Metal sex symbols aren't Pat Boone but Tommy Lee, Metalica or the Rolling Stones. Tommy Lee has been accused by his ex-wife Pamela Anderson of kicking her while she was pregnant and giving her Hepatitis B and they're still linked to each other romantically. Carmen Electra isn't married to a man from the military with a degree she's married to ex-Metallica guitarist Dave Navarro and remember before that she was married to Dennis Rodman. Heather Locklear was married to Tommy Lee and is now married to a guitarist in Bon Jovi. Back to Pamela Anderson who is with or not with Kid Rock. Do you think that relationship would be in existence if he wasn't Kid Rock? So don't speak for young black women or women at all.

I think you self-proclaimed "Steve Urkel/military" men are humorously naive. I'd like to be the fly on the wall when you're flirting with "Pamela Anderson" or even "Ann Coulter" and you explain your status, I'd laugh you out of the club. It's funny: a black woman who marries up is a golddigger but a non-black woman is a shrewd investor/business person. You guys are naive if not idiots if you believe young PRETTY non-black women are actually spending time with black nerds. I'm holding my ribs b/c that is the funniest sh!t I've ever heard. It's a fact that the young female population is bent on the side of the bad boy. So if you have a non-black woman giving you a chance employing your "keeping it real" tactics she's probably not drop-dead gorgeous.

And then someone pointedly asks "Why can't you love a man w/o a degree?" but than in the same breath says black nerds should have the right to want the prettiest woman that will want him. But Marily Monroe said it best in Gentlemen Prefer Blondes: what's the difference between you wanting the prettiest and me wanting the best to provide for me? So if you want the prettiest be prepared to be passed up for the one who can provide the most. It's only fair.

By Robert Sheaffer

There is another factor that is almost never mentioned: Bill Clinton is the sexy Bad Boy, an attractive rogue, and women tend to fall, and fall hard, for such men. By now the phenomenon of the sexy Bad Boy vs. the sexless Nice Guy is so well-known that it scarcely needs to be demonstrated. Countless examples might be cited: we'll look at just a few:

A feature article in Woman's Own Magazine (April, 1995) writes of "The Lure of the Bad Boy," explaining that "Women insist that they prefer the hand-holding sensitive type, but that's not what really turns us on." Do they mean to suggest (gasp!) that men should not "Believe the Women?"

A girl character in Lynda Barry's cartoon Marlys explains, "this thing happens when
guys are nice. When guys are nice, your feelings can just sort of stop" (June 28, 1990).

The tabloid National Enquirer, which boasts of the largest circulation of any
newspaper in America, reported that "Miss America Carolyn Snapp has gone back to the boyfriend who brutally beat her and threatened to kill her. What's more, she says she's going to marry him!" (Feb. 18, 1992).

When O.J. Simpson was in jail awaiting trial, the tabloid The Star reported that
Simpson "gets so much mail from lovesick women wanting to have his babies that guards have had to stockpile the steamy letters in an empty jail cell next to his... many are accompanied with photographs of the writer in the nude." (May 2, 1995).

After his acquittal, the National Enquirer reported that Simpson is "frolicking with
one gorgeous gal after another at his Brentwood mansion, say insiders - sometimes taking on two admiring beauties at a time. Women are so wowed by his outlaw celebrity that they actually camp out on the lawn in front of his house until he lets them in" (April 30, 1996).

Clearly, just because a man is highly popular with women does not indicate he is virtuous; if anything, it suggests that he likely isn't.

The Russian ultra-nationalist and all-around Bad Boy Vladimir Zhirinovsky, the world's last best hope for starting World War III, said "At a sexually active age, women vote for me. And women in - what do you call it, menopause? Women in menopause vote for Yeltsin" (Newsweek, June 17, 1996, p. 27).

Surely the "gender gap" benefiting Zhirinovsky is not due to him espousing any pro-
feminist position: his platform is explicitly anti-semitic, and advocates Russia invading its neighboring Moslem countries.

For an extreme, even morbid, example of Bad-Boy-lust, read the astonishing Love Letters to Hitler (New York Times, May 25, 1995, p. A6). "My beloved Fuhrer," they begin, or "My darling sugar-sweet Adolf," "Dear Adi," etc.

Does anyone still want to maintain that a politician's ability to infatuate female voters is necessarily a sign of his personal integrity, or of promoting wise policies? Clearly it is not. Rather, it seems that a virile but misbehaving man, an attractive rogue, will be able to sway womens' emotions far more readily than mens'. Perhaps this is what the Founding Fathers feared when they restricted the vote to men.
Meanwhile, women can today be heard complaining that Dole is "unexciting" and "too old," as if they would choose a President the same way they choose a lover. Perhaps that is the problem: too many of them do, and the result is the "Gender Gap" that the media invariably portrays as a Republican shortcoming. But is it? Perhaps to be on the male side of the Gender Gap, no matter how unfortunate, is really a badge of integrity? While I would surely not call Bob Dole an ideal candidate, I would certainly prefer an experienced leader whose integrity I think I can trust, and whose positions I can at least understand, over any slick and prevaricating rogue, no matter how attractive. And if the polls are accurate, most men agree with my reasoning on this issue.

The Bad Boy rock musician Slash once boasted, "Not being sexist or anything, it's amazing how much abuse girls will take" (Parade Magazine, Dec. 6, 1992, p. 2). If Bill Clinton is re- elected, it will be primarily on the votes of women, and if this happens it will constitute dramatic validation of Slash's axiom, given that everyone knows Clinton routinely does things that Nice Guys are never supposed to. Savvy politicians will not fail to observe that to be an attractive rogue is the key to political success in today's Brave New Feminist World, and in future races we can expect to see more slick rogues, in both parties. The consequences to the Republic will be sad, indeed, as each candidate competes not to propose effective solutions to problems, but to out-bluster, out-swindle, and out-swagger his opponent.

My advice to Bob Dole? Don't become more accomodating to feminism, as you have tried in recent weeks, but instead work on becoming more virile. The feminist-accepting, sensitive man is a sure loser. Speak more forcefully, and show no indecision or second thoughts about your policies. Talk about how you're going to "kick butt" when you get to the White House. Perhaps you can appear to be just enough of a tough and savvy guy to close the Gender Gap enough to get into the White House, where you will then have four years to try to govern with integrity, before it is necessary to don the mask of the rogue once again.
quote:
Originally posted by LilFoxyBrwnIntellectual:

My advice to Bob Dole? Don't become more accomodating to feminism, as you have tried in recent weeks, but instead work on becoming more virile. The feminist-accepting, sensitive man is a sure loser. Speak more forcefully, and show no indecision or second thoughts about your policies. Talk about how you're going to "kick butt" when you get to the White House. Perhaps you can appear to be just enough of a tough and savvy guy to close the Gender Gap enough to get into the White House, where you will then have four years to try to govern with integrity, before it is necessary to don the mask of the rogue once again.


So, did the viagra help him or hurt him? rotflmao

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Cauca, Colombia

quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:

why can't she love a man without a degree?? Is it possible for her to care for, love, and support a degree-less man??

why is that a requirement to dating/marriage??




I can't believe it! Am I actually finding myself in agreement with you, RR??? Eek winkgrin thumbsup

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rotflmao

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
Originally posted by LilFoxyBrwnIntellectual:


I think you self-proclaimed "Steve Urkel/military" men are humorously naive. I'd like to be the fly on the wall when you're flirting with "Pamela Anderson" or even "Ann Coulter" and you explain your status, I'd laugh you out of the club. It's funny: a black woman who marries up is a golddigger but a non-black woman is a shrewd investor/business person. You guys are naive if not idiots if you believe young PRETTY non-black women are actually spending time with black nerds. I'm holding my ribs b/c that is the funniest sh!t I've ever heard. It's a fact that the young female population is bent on the side of the bad boy. So if you have a non-black woman giving you a chance employing your "keeping it real" tactics she's probably not drop-dead gorgeous.




I think you are ignoring the fact that many white women approach blk men, so i guess that shoots down your 'fly on the wall when you're flirting with "Pamela Anderson" or even "Ann Coulter" and you explain your status' idea. Plus military and college students are among the poorest citizens in the country [prime time to 'grow with a bruh'..if he is an honor student in engineering...common sense may indicate that he is going to be an engineer] Roll Eyes


"It's funny: a black woman who marries up is a golddigger but a non-black woman is a shrewd investor/business person. You guys are naive if not idiots if you believe young PRETTY non-black women are actually spending time with black nerds." It's called 'growing with someone' and 'd-e-v-e-l-o-p-m-e-n-t' unlike the many blk women that are looking for a man who is already made it [professional]and fits their dating 'standards'[wealth]. Again I ask, and have yet to receive an answer on this, why can't blk women do that, esp. if steve urkel with a 6 figure job and a degree is the 'ideal' mate for many to most 'mature' blk women. Why couldn't she develop with him, esp. if she herself is developing her career/future?? and urkel is in your classes at college?? I don't expect an answer for this question, because the answer is too obvious and removes the "I AM A VICTIM" mindset that numerous blk women carry with them like a purse Roll Eyes BTW, other races of women do 'grow' with their men and have a higher marriage rate than blk women Wink

" I'm holding my ribs b/c that is the funniest sh!t I've ever heard. It's a fact that the young female population is bent on the side of the bad boy. So if you have a non-black woman giving you a chance employing your "keeping it real" tactics she's probably not drop-dead gorgeous."

You know what's even funnier than that is when those same 'shoulda been supportative' and 'growing with a bruh' 'diva' tries to work herself back into steve urkels live after his degree and big money job and her 'bad boy restoration project fails and leaves her with a child or 2 [if you sleep with dogs on purpose, don't complain about waking up with fleas...and puppies Wink ]...calling him 'marriage material' or 'soulmate' many years later. That's funny!!! As far as the 'not drop dead gorgeous' comment. I find it funny that blk women seem to have a 'sense of entitlement' when it comes to exclusively dating blk men, no matter what that blk woman looks like, yet when speaking about a 'non-blk' woman dating a bruh, the first thing blk women want to diss that 'non blk woman' on is her appearance...it's like the BET article listed here about Blair underwood being a love interest on the HBO sex in the city show ...entitled 'The Top Ten Reasons Black Women Don't Care About Blair (and the White Woman)'
http://www.bet.com/articles/1,,c5gb7186-8005,00.html

is this another sign of the blk woman's insecurity that i spoke about in my previous post here in this thread? Confused Happy Sunday Big Grin

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
why can't she love a man without a degree?? Is it possible for her to care for, love, and support a degree-less man??

why is that a requirement to dating/marriage??

If she was so attracted to dating the educated, shouldn't she have pursued that love in undergrad school with classmates??


You missed the point, Raheem. In an earlier post you said that the problem was that black women are unhappy because they are too picky. What I have shown you is that a more provable fact is that women outnumber men, even those that are more educated. And I have already told you that the fact is that black women must (and do) marry less educated men if they want to marry black because there's no getting around the shortage. Pretty simple.

In light of that, all the excuses about who's to blame and the indictment of either sex's behavior all become rather ridiculous, and can in fact be explained away by the simple truth.

Black women are single more often because there isn't a black man for each one of them. Black women find themselves as single mothers and in harems more often because the competition over any man has lowered their standards and expectations. Black women are chided for wanting successful, attractive men because the average Joe knows he's best they'll probably get. Black women look hard for the "better man" because the truth is, he's surprisingly hard to find.

None of this has anything to do with black men being more childish than other men or black women being more superficial than other women. This is not rocket science.

d.
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
why can't she love a man without a degree?? Is it possible for her to care for, love, and support a degree-less man??

why is that a requirement to dating/marriage??

If she was so attracted to dating the educated, shouldn't she have pursued that love in undergrad school with classmates??


You missed the point, Raheem. In an earlier post you said that the problem was that black women are unhappy because they are too picky. What I have shown you is that a more provable fact is that women outnumber men, even those that are more educated. And I have already told you that the fact is that black women must (and _do_) marry less educated men if they want to marry black because there's no getting around the shortage. Pretty simple.

In light of that, all the excuses about who's to blame and the indictment of either sex's behavior all become rather ridiculous, and can in fact be explained away by the simple truth.

Black women are single more often because there isn't a black man for each one of them. Black women find themselves as single mothers and in harems more often because the competition over any man has lowered their standards and expectations. Black women are chided for wanting successful, attractive men because the average Joe knows he's best they'll probably get. Black women look hard for the "better man" because the truth is, he's surprisingly hard to find.

None of this has anything to do with black men being more childish than other men or black women being more superficial than other women. This is not rocket science.

d.



can you prove any of what you say here?? or is it just some 'random thoughts' to attempt to excuse the 'bad boy' fetish many young blk women have?? Again I ask, can a black woman with a degree care for a degree-less man??? I say yes...I can assume that you agree. If she can date/love/care for/marry a man without a degree, why doesn't she?? I think many blk women are putting up a 'standard' that is senseless and harms their dating lives/loving opportunities. If that is the case, then her claim of 'loneliness' needs to be changed to 'i refuse to date a degree-less man and if I must hold that line, i'll be alone forever!!!'...You see then the truth will come out. BTW, Blk women outnumber blk men White women out number white men, Asian women outnumber asian men, women in the USA [146,707,720]outnumber the men of the USA [141,660,978]. That's 5,046,742 EXTRA WOMEN!!!http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=black+women+outnumber+black+men&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26amp%3BrequestId%3D6bf27096e202e205%26amp%3BclickedItemRank%3D10%26amp%3BuserQuery%3Dblack%2Bwomen%2Boutnumber%2Bblack%2Bmen%26amp%3BclickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.census.gov%252Fapsd%252Fwww%252Fstatbrief%252Fsb95_19.pdf%26amp%3BinvocationType%3D-%26amp%3BfromPage%3DNSCPIndex&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.census.gov%2Fapsd%2Fwww%2Fstatbrief%2Fsb95_19.pdf ..BTW, please note, that women live longer than men do Wink http://eire.census.gov/popest/data/states/ST-EST2002-ASRO-01.php

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
Originally posted by IMMORTAL LOGIC:
A bunch of poster(like Djonmaila) putting up there little "wacky facts" About brothas most are just opinions and stereotypes,(no, black women are NOT the only women to be better educated than their men. All women in this country are better educated,and the difference between us is like what, one point,if even.


Let's be clear. You are talking about percentages. I am talking about _numbers_. If white women are going to school at similar rates as white men, then there are similar numbers of educated white males and females. If black males and females go to school at the same rates, there are still more educated black women than men at the end of the day _BECAUSE WE OUTNUMBER YOU_. That is a fact, not an opinion. If there are 50 bms in the world by age 35 and 80 bfs and half of each have degrees, if we try to pair up the degree-holders, somebody doesn't have a date. So like I was saying before, an educated black man still has more black options than his female colleagues. You should also note that while enrollment rates at colleges are slightly higher for white women than men (a new trend), for _graduation_ rates, white men are still ahead, meaning that white women are not better educated than white men.

Okay djona lets talk raw numbers. U.S. Educational attainment of the population 25 years and over by sex and race 2002:
Black males to attain bachelors degrees or more 1,460(again, just for this year.)
Black females to attain bachelors degrees or more 2,000 So the difference in raw numbers is540
Census for 2001:
Black males to attain bachelors degrees or more 1,466
Black females to attain bachelors degrees or more 1,858 for a difference of412 If you check year by year you'll find the difference is only by a few hundred. So dispite YOU OUTNUMBERING US there is no huge gap like some sistas would like to think. And that's not factoring in brothas who are blue collar, in the military, or small business owners. So if a few sistas here and there can't CONDESEND to being seen with one of those brothas tough.
I read the rest of your post, and I don't disagree with you. Black men are not children, and they are certainly no more brainwashed than we are. For every black man out there who prefers blondes, there's at least one sister spending half her paycheck on weaves, perms, and peroxide. I do not think this is an indictment of men in the issue of black relationships, and you should understand that the next time you lump me with another poster who does.

djona.


[This message was edited by djonmaila on December 07, 2003 at 12:31 PM.]

The reason I lumped you in with all the other posters is because in these little men/women post, there's always some fact that is based in truth but so much has been inflated, exaggerated, omitted, distorted that it has little resemblence to the actual truth(whether intentional or not) thus the term "wacky facts."

As to the statement about you outnumbering us, your right again. But yet again you make it seem to be some huge difference. U,S, census reports:
90.6 black men for every 100 black women.
But we must all be in prison right? out of 100% of black men (18-64)7.9 are in prison, which is still high compared other races but it also means 92.1 are'nt. And let's be clear 100% of the black female population is'nt exactly running free either. And while there are more bros. in prison than sistas,america has thelargest and still fastest growing prison pop. in the world, and according the justice dept. women are the fastest growing in the u.s. and black women are the fastest growing of women(a 78%increase since the 90's). So to be honest, African american women are the fastest growing prison population in the world. In The national Urban Leagues latest "State of Black America" states that the rate of african american women inmate growth(not prisoners, just the rate)has surpassed that of african american males. Prof.Paula C. Johnson school of law Syracuse,(a sista for anyone about to scream "gender biased" or "racism")Verifies these claims with her research claiming that black women were being "incarcerated at more than twice the rate of increase as black men". At this rate in a decade, there'll be as many AA women or more in prison as AA men(would we be wrong if we told bros to look elsewhere like you did.) I'm not saying that to to be vindictive, but to say 1)the supposed "man shortage" is'nt nearly as big as some make it out to be. And 2)we all need to take a critcal look at the situations in our community, not half but all. And to answer the original question of this post, trust me, men are'nt being scared off,just tired of having to keep proving ourselves, and our worth.

******************************
Then I heard another voice say:"come out of her,my people,so that you will not share her sins,so that you will not receive her plagues, for her sins have piled up to heaven and YAH has remembered her crimes,give her back as much as she has given;pay her back double what she has done. Mix her a double portion from her own cup. Give her as much torture and grief as the glory and luxury she gave herself."(Revelations 18:4-7)

[This message was edited by IMMORTAL LOGIC on December 07, 2003 at 05:13 PM.]
White, Asian, and Hispanic women do not outnumber their men as significantly as we do. Also, what is the percentage of black men in prison? Part of our original argument was that due to murder and incarceration rates that affect young black males disproportionately, the number of available black males is significantly less than that of available black females. Also, white and Asian women marry out at higher rates that black women, which as I mentioned before, is something black women are disinclined to do, which means our marriage rates are much more directly impacted by the numbers of available black men.

But you wanted proof. Here you go.


quote:
from http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/usa/Rcedrg00-01.htm

The rate at which black men are incarcerated is astonishing. There are 4,630 black men in prison nationwide per 100,000 black men in the population, whereas the rate for white men is 482.28 In ten states and the District of Columbia, black men are incarcerated at staggeringly high rates that range from 5,740 to 7,859 per 100,000. In contrast, the range among the ten states with the highest rates of white male incarceration is 620 to 1,151. The highest rate of white male incarceration (1,151) is lower than the lowest rate of black male incarceration (1,195). According to Department of Justice calculations, if current rates of incarceration remain unchanged, 28.5 percent of black men will be confined in prison at least once during their lifetime, a figure six times greater than that for white men.29


quote:
from http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:7yj6TurIIXoJ:repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1064%26context%3Dissr+census+race+sex+ratio+%22black+male%22+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Although the male shortage is a relatively recent occurrence in the generalAmerican population (primarily evident since 1960 when the first baby boomers reachedmarriageable age), blacks in this country have experienced a significant male shortage since 1920. Furthermore, the situation has steadily worsened over the years since. Measuring male shortage in terms of the sex ratio, that is, the number of men in a givenpopulation per 100 women, raw Census figures (see Table 1) indicate that the while the sex ratio for the Afro-American population was 99.2 in 1920, it had dropped to 95.0 by 1940 and to 89.6 by 1980. Among whites, the figure did not fall below 100 until 1950, bottoming out at 95.3 in 1970 and 1980.



from http://www.apalanet.org/news/api_census_2000.pdf
we find male to female ratios as of 2000 as follows:

  • Asians - 95%
  • Whites - 96%
  • Hispanics - 100.4%
  • Blacks - 87%


That first figure may in part explain why Asian women marry out more than Asian men.

So we start out at 87%, meaning that of the 20+ million black women in the 2002 census, some 2.6 million of us do not have a shot at getting a black man to ourselves ( 20,073,626 - (20,073,626 * .87) ). That's before you take into account incarceration rates for men, which put 4.63 bms per 100 in prison at any given time (800K+, and 1 in 3 in prison sometime during their lives. And that's before you subtract the men who don't date black. And these figures are no different for educated women. And despite all this, we still marry and date black at higher rates than black men.
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
Again I ask, can a black woman with a degree care for a degree-less man???


For the last time, WE DO. We don't have a choice. That you are still asking that question despite the fact that it has already been addressed makes me wonder whether you are looking for answers or just a scapegoat. I find it rather ironic that on the one hand you bemoan the black women who tolerate bad relationships and bad men as not being good enough for you to choose, but on the other hand, you assert that black women are too finnicky for their own good and need to settle for what they can get.

If you are angry at us for not marrying men we don't find attractive, faithful, or intellectually stimulating, then what you are really asking is why any man can't have whatever woman he wants. If you are also angry at us for lowering our standards and doing whatever it takes to get men who expect to get whatever they want, then you are a hypocrite. But berating those of us who prefer mates with an education is the equivalent of saying that black women don't deserve educated men, something you'd have a hard time saying to white or Asian women. If an uneducated brother can rightfully expect to land an educated sister, than an educated sister should not feel guilty about wanting an educated mate.
Immortal: I agree with you. I was looking at the incarceration rates for women and they have gone up dramatically, and yes, if we are excluding black men in prison, we also exclude black women. I disagree that the shortage is not significant, though, but only because black women have so little interest in men of other races and, as I said to Raheem, we are almost totally dependent on the numbers of black men in the US. But non-black women have far more marriage options than black women, so their pool of potential mates includes men of all races. That's the reason we aren't discussing a "white male" shortage.
quote:
Originally posted by IMMORTAL LOGIC:

Okay djona lets talk raw numbers. U.S. Educational attainment of the population 25 years and over by sex and race 2002:
_Black males to attain bachelors degrees or more 1,460_(again, just for this year.)
_Black females to attain bachelors degrees or more 2,000 _ _So the difference in raw numbers is__540_
_Census for 2001:_
_Black males to attain bachelors degrees or more 1,466_
_Black females to attain bachelors degrees or more 1,858 __for a difference of__412_ _If you check year by year you'll find the difference is only by a few hundred. So dispite YOU OUTNUMBERING US there is no huge gap like some sistas would like to think. And that's not factoring in brothas who are blue collar, in the military, or small business owners. So if a few sistas here and there can't CONDESEND to being seen with one of those brothas tough._


I am positive if you check your source, you'll see that those numbers reflect numbers of students in thousands. You can't seriously think that only 2000 sisters have degrees in the US. And it still proves my point. We black American women are better educated.


from this link http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/p20-541.pdf

18% of black women and 16% of black men have degrees. 20.4 million blacks are over age 25. I don't have figures for the number by sex over age 25 but we can estimate roughly based on the 87% figure (which is likely lower than 87% since the male/female ration decreases with age starting at 18). If women outnumber men by 87% out of a pool of 20.4 million (20.4M = x + .87x, x = 10.9M, .87x = 9.5M), and 18% of the women have degrees, we have 1.98 million educated females. By the same token, we have 1.52 million educated males. That's a difference of few hundred thousand.


[This message was edited by djonmaila on December 09, 2003 at 08:52 PM.]
Raheem, sorry but your point that many white women hit on black men made no sense. Again, what types of black men are they hitting on and how do they look in comparison to those black men? I'm sure "Ana Nicole Smith" hits on "Urkel" (not even that seems plausible) but I don't believe that "Pamela Anderson" or even "Ann Coulter" would do the same. So again you're being ridiculous. Unless "Urkel" is rich his chances are slimmer than Bill Gates pre-Microsoft. So your naivete is just amusing. Again I'm open to tagging along with you at the Playboy mansion and watching you make your rounds as you tell these so-called mature white, Hispanic and/or Asian women that you're in the military and you haven't got your degree yet but would they mind "growing" with you. Of course a poor woman w/o a degree can grow with someone that's on a different path. But statistics show that only 4% of white women with graduate degrees are married outside of their race. So you're laughable.

And I'm a black woman in college but I'm also not looking for a relationship. I've never been in a relationship and I subsequently have never been in love and I'm in no rush. I make no complaints about being alone b/c I've learned a lot about myself. So I actually don't feel entitled to a man and especially not a black man like you inferred all black women feel. So unless "Urkel" is willing to be my friend and grow with me then I'm not going worry about "Urkel's" complex b/c it's not my PROBLEM.

And someone asked what is wrong with "Urkel" growing with women that are in his same boat? And you didn't give a good answer. So save the swan songs for "Urkel." Why can't "Urkel" grow with us "Myras," the t-shirt, jeans, jacket, and hat girls? I'm no dog and I have the ability to exude ultra-feminity on the level of Halle Berry, Salma Hayek and Marilyn Monroe. But I can't afford those extra things that enhance those feminine wiles like purfumes, lingerie, matching panties and bras, nice stiletto shoes, and etc. So you're again being silly. Not all of us college "Myra's can afford to look like Halle Berry. Even Halle Berry admitted to using her first big paycheck on a matching bra and panty splurge at Victoria Secret's that amounted to $6500.

And you're also a mess. "Other women (non-black women) grow with their men?" Let's examine that theory. First of all other races don't have a huge gender disparity when it comes to education. In 2000-2001 73,000 (+) black women earned bachelor's degrees while only 38,000 (+) black men earned the same. 60% of all degree earning blacks are women. There are more black men in prison than in college a 700,000/600,000 ratio. So you make no sense in your theory because wouldn't white, Asian, and Hispanic people have to all have those same numbers for your comparison to make sense?Wink And there are search engines out there for a reason, so try typing in keywords like "marriage demographics" or "marriage income and education." And I will warn you not to come back with laymen opinions, the facts that you find should be supported through actual dissertations and studies. Again only 4% of white women w/ graduate degrees are married outside of their race. Need I tell you about Asian and Hispanic women's numbers? And since Asian women marry out more w/ white men how much do you wanna bet those who are EDUCATED are marrried to uneducated white men? So you're actually loosing your grip on common sense.

No finance? No romance: income and education linked to marriage plans. (Relationships).

WHEN A SURVEY POPPED THIS question: "Will you marry?" to 700 women living with their boyfriends, one out of four responded, "I won't." And it seems a man's earning power may affect a woman's decision to wed.

Sociologists Pamela Smock, Ph.D., of the University of Michigan, and Wendy Manning, Ph.D., of Bowling Green State University, found that socioeconomic status is a key factor in a cohabitating woman's expectation of marriage. An analysis of the 1995 National Survey of Family Growth reveals that women living with men of lesser economic means and lower levels of education were less likely to anticipate marrying their current partner.

Smock explained that while the expectation of marriage is almost 80 percent for white and Hispanic women with high levels of education and income who live with men of equally high socioeconomic standing, this probability falls to 50 percent when women of this same status are paired with men of low socioeconomic means. Among African-American women in this same stratum, this probability drops from 70 percent to 42 percent.

The study, published in the Journal of Family Issues, finds that experience is also linked to a waning expectation of marriage. Smock and Manning note that a woman who has been married prior to a live-in relationship shows 59 percent lower odds of expecting to wed her current partner; a woman who has cohabitated before is 49 percent less likely to anticipate a walk down the aisle.

The findings come as the number of opposite-sex cohabitating couples continues to climb from I million in the late '70s to 4.7 million in 2000. Smock attributes this in part to a growing acceptance of premarital sex.

So what about the welfare reform plan, backed by the Bush administration, which includes $300 million to promote healthy marriages through premarital education and counseling? Smock suggests that Bush's plan may sidestep the greater issue: "Marriage education and counseling aren't necessarily going to be effective for low-income couples. It makes more sense to start with economics--putting money into job training and education so they can be on solid economic footing."COPYRIGHT 2003 Sussex Publishers, Inc.
COPYRIGHT 2003 Gale Group


So again Raheem you're amusingly naive. And don't try to misconstrue the numbers, it's plain and simple that white and Hispanic women have a 80% probability of getting married which drops to 50 if the man isn't on the same educational level and since black women have a lower probability of marriage (70%), a man w/o a degree is going to also be lower (42). So don't speak for black women and as a matter of fact don't speak for women at all. Stick to your swan song for "Steve Urkel."Big GrinWink

BTW I don't remember Urkel ever havng a chip on his shoulder like you so I think you're better off calling yourself Collin Ferguson the black man who went on a shooting spree in a New York subway. Urkel never blamed people for his idiosyncracies. So please stop misconstruing Urkel's true character.Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by LilFoxyBrwnIntellectual:

Again I'm open to tagging along with you at the Playboy mansion and watching you make your rounds as you tell these so-called mature white, Hispanic and/or Asian women that you're in the military and you haven't got your degree yet but would they mind "growing" with you.


Quote of the year, girl. ROFL.
I think that Raheem is saying that there are some women, educated or not, are attracted to bad boys. It's not like all the Urkels of the world are blaming other women for not being attractive. From my POV, Raheem is saying that b/c the Urkel brother isn't the 1st choice for a thug-hungry woman, he shouldn't accept being the "buddy" of that woman or the constellation prize-potential husband when the thuggish baby-daddy abandons the woman.

He's not making this up. C'mon, how does anyone explain Vivica Fox with 50 Cent? What does a near-40 year old woman want with a thug??? Confused

I could understand a woman in her 20's getting with 50, like Brandy or Alicia Keys (if 50 is their type), but Vivica? Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:
I think that Raheem is saying that there are some women, educated or not, are attracted to bad boys. It's not like all the Urkels of the world are blaming other women for not being attractive. From my POV, Raheem is saying that b/c the Urkel brother isn't the 1st choice for a thug-hungry woman, he shouldn't accept being the "buddy" of that woman or the constellation prize-potential husband when the thuggish baby-daddy abandons the woman.

He's not making this up. C'mon, how does anyone explain Vivica Fox with 50 Cent? What does a near-40 year old woman want with a thug??? Confused

I could understand a woman in her 20's getting with 50, like Brandy or Alicia Keys (if 50 is their type), but Vivica? Roll Eyes


First Huey, baby, you articulated that differently than Raheem. You didn't interject racial differences in "bad boy" lusts among young women that are unsupported. To Raheem: I mean explain why do Asian American women marry out (w/ white men) at a higher rate even though Asian men are more educated than both white and black men? And Asian American men are also claimed to be better fathers. Asian American men have complained about the same superficiality you claim but they at least have statistics and media portrayals on their side. Asian men are still portrayed as sexless nerds. So your argument is baseless. And let's examine this, if black men were portrayed the same way as Asian men in tv and films-as all Urkels- that would only decrease their chances of finding a mate black, white, Asian and/or Hispanic. It's because of the hyper-masculine and physically well-endowed portrayals and myths that make even Urkel a sexual curiousity.

And this is truly nothing more than sexist rhetoric, as if these "Urkels" are chasing after women in their boat who don't want them. Even Urkel was chasing after Laura who had a different social status than him and was turned off by Myra who was equally as cute as Laura if not cuter but she was a nerd like him. So I think you guys need to save your swan songs. To me there is a double standard nerdy men feel entitled to beautiful women but beautiful women shouldn't feel entitled to men of a greater status? I hear men complain about goldiggers because that is superficial but lusting after a woman with a pretty face is what, just above that?

And I'm sorry I won't lambaste goldiggers or "bad boy" enthusiasts because if a lot of men continue to feel they are entitled to the prettiest face in the room then the prettiest face in the room has every right to feel entitled to the best provider in the room be that financial, social and/or attractiveness. That's the matrix, if you feel you have to have a pretty face then plan out a Bill Gates or Donald Trump-esque ambition. Notice Donald Trump has models left and right and he has a comb-over. And how about good ol' Hef and his "6 girlfriends at one time." Again, I'm "keeping it real" like you guys.Wink

And c'mon who cares about Vivica A. Fox and 50 Cent? It didn't even last. I mean 1 Vivica is supposed to be a paradigm of all black women in their 30's or 40's?

I don't date thugs and I'm 22 because I want someone on the same wave-length as me. I am a nerd but I'm not ugly and I find Mos Def and Talib Kweli to be way sexier than 50 Cent. I love Aaron McGruder (the Boondocks creator), Bill Maher, Anderson Cooper (CNN), Carl Hiaasan (sp) (Miami Herald) just because of their individual wits alone. I think 50 Cent is prison wolf GAY. Every time I see him I think of an "OZ" episode. And I could see him being the raper (no pun intended) or the rapee, GROSS!

Also not even rappers are married to the women that are in their videos or even women close to looking like those women. It seems to me they at least sub-consciously know that the women in their videos won't be around when it gets tough. Do a search on Snoop Dogg, LL Cool J, Ice Cube, DMX, and/or Ja Rule's wife and check out their appearances. That's ironic rappers are actually above superficiality when it comes to choosing a life-long partner. Go figure... Big Grin
Wow, this is another interesting topic! To be honest with you reading the responses show a direct connection to the problem facing black families. This can be traced back to the gender war waged by white women and joined by black women. It seems to me we are more concerned about degrees and economic status rather than building strong healthy families. I mean statistics can be skewed anyway you want them. I read one that showed a black family with both parents with master's degrees or better earning less that the average white family with a high school education.If you know history and you understand how the institution of slavery was waged you will see exactly what happend. The black male was stripped of his manhood, leaving the black women soley dependent on the european for her needs either directly or indirectly while at the same time the black males is rendered helpless and unable to do anything to protect his woman. Which i suggest forces the black woman subconciously to lose respect for the black male because he is helpless in the ability to protect her and she relies on her own ability and the kindness of the european for her survival . So ok sistas get better jobs they are in corporations, but if you understand the plan, you will see that she is still as much dependent on the white man as she was during slavery.In the Willie Lynch letter "the making of a slave " a blueprint was made on how to control the slaves and it was through the woman. they would take the strongest black male and strip him down in front of the black woman and child and completely humiliate him right before the her eyes causing her so much trauma she reverts to a mentally frozen state. This mental states causes her to instill complete role reversals when raising her offsprings. Seeing what happens to the males she teaches the male offspring to be physically strong but mentally weak. She teaches the female to be strong and aggressive because she knows the white master doesnt see her as a threat and more so it plays directly into the game plan of the european, you have the black woman as the head of the house hold leading the family and you have hte black man , used basically as a horse doing the work and breeding but taking no part in the raising of the family because after all he had no rights no authority as a man over his family, everything she needs to survive she has to get directly or indirectly from the white man. I submit this is essentially the state we are in right now. the black woman stuck in this frozen state, and the black man largely stuck with such psychological damage unable to assert himself as a man , forced to the margins of society and made to be deocile because his very nature is a threat. The european was so arrogant as to assert ," dont worry about the present think about the future, because no matter how hard the black man tries he cannot get pass the frozen mental of the black woman" so in essence the black woman is an agent for the white man, ie the system becauses she trains the offspring to be totally dependent on the european for every basic need. I know people will disagree and thats cool i welcome the debate, but lets get away from the superficial argument of miseducation and income , into the argument of mental heath and the make up of the black family.
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:
I think that Raheem is saying that there are some women, educated or not, are attracted to bad boys. It's not like all the Urkels of the world are blaming other women for not being attractive. From my POV, Raheem is saying that b/c the Urkel brother isn't the 1st choice for a thug-hungry woman, he shouldn't accept being the "buddy" of that woman or the constellation prize-potential husband when the thuggish baby-daddy abandons the woman.

He's not making this up. C'mon, how does anyone explain Vivica Fox with 50 Cent? What does a near-40 year old woman want with a thug??? Confused

I could understand a woman in her 20's getting with 50, like Brandy or Alicia Keys (if 50 is their type), but Vivica? Roll Eyes



THANK YOU THAT WAS EXACTLY MY POINT..I had been trying to explain it 88+ different ways and styles, but I'm glad someone else understood my point. Thanks again!!! Big Grin

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
Originally posted by LilFoxyBrwnIntellectual:
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:
I think that Raheem is saying that there are some women, educated or not, are attracted to bad boys. It's not like all the Urkels of the world are blaming other women for not being attractive. From my POV, Raheem is saying that b/c the Urkel brother isn't the 1st choice for a thug-hungry woman, he shouldn't accept being the "buddy" of that woman or the constellation prize-potential husband when the thuggish baby-daddy abandons the woman.

He's not making this up. C'mon, how does anyone explain Vivica Fox with 50 Cent? What does a near-40 year old woman want with a thug??? Confused

I could understand a woman in her 20's getting with 50, like Brandy or Alicia Keys (if 50 is their type), but Vivica? Roll Eyes


First Huey, baby, you articulated that differently than Raheem. You didn't interject racial differences in "bad boy" lusts among young women that are unsupported. To Raheem: I mean explain why do Asian American women marry out (w/ white men) at a higher rate even though Asian men are more educated than both white and black men? And Asian American men are also claimed to be better fathers. Asian American men have complained about the same superficiality you claim but they at least have statistics and media portrayals on their side. Asian men are still portrayed as sexless nerds. So your argument is baseless. And let's examine this, if black men were portrayed the same way as Asian men in tv and films-as all Urkels- that would only decrease their chances of finding a mate black, white, Asian and/or Hispanic. It's because of the hyper-masculine and physically well-endowed portrayals and myths that make even Urkel a sexual curiousity.

And this is truly nothing more than sexist rhetoric, as if these "Urkels" are chasing after women in their boat who don't want them. Even Urkel was chasing after Laura who had a different social status than him and was turned off by Myra who was equally as cute as Laura if not cuter but she was a nerd like him. So I think you guys need to save your swan songs. To me there is a double standard nerdy men feel entitled to beautiful women but beautiful women shouldn't feel entitled to men of a greater status? I hear men complain about goldiggers because that is superficial but lusting after a woman with a pretty face is what, just above that?

And I'm sorry I won't lambaste goldiggers or "bad boy" enthusiasts because if a lot of men continue to feel they are entitled to the prettiest face in the room then the prettiest face in the room has every right to feel entitled to the best provider in the room be that financial, social and/or attractiveness. That's the matrix, if you feel you have to have a pretty face then plan out a Bill Gates or Donald Trump-esque ambition. Notice Donald Trump has models left and right and he has a comb-over. And how about good ol' Hef and his "6 girlfriends at one time." Again, I'm "keeping it real" like you guys.Wink

And c'mon who cares about Vivica A. Fox and 50 Cent? It didn't even last. I mean 1 Vivica is supposed to be a paradigm of all black women in their 30's or 40's?

I don't date thugs and I'm 22 because I want someone on the same wave-length as me. I am a nerd but I'm not ugly and I find Mos Def and Talib Kweli to be way sexier than 50 Cent. I love Aaron McGruder (the Boondocks creator), Bill Maher, Anderson Cooper (CNN), Carl Hiaasan (sp) (Miami Herald) just because of their individual wits alone. I think 50 Cent is prison wolf GAY. Every time I see him I think of an "OZ" episode. And I could see him being the raper (no pun intended) or the rapee, GROSS!

Also not even rappers are married to the women that are in their videos or even women close to looking like those women. It seems to me they at least sub-consciously know that the women in their videos won't be around when it gets tough. Do a search on Snoop Dogg, LL Cool J, Ice Cube, DMX, and/or Ja Rule's wife and check out their appearances. That's ironic rappers are actually above superficiality when it comes to choosing a life-long partner. Go figure... Big Grin


so since my point doesn't apply to asian men, asian women dating/marrying white men my point is 'baseless'...Yeah right...Happy Monday Big Grin

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
Originally posted by LilFoxyBrwnIntellectual:
Raheem, sorry but your point that many white women hit on black men made no sense. Again, what types of black men are they hitting on and how do they look in comparison to those black men? I'm sure "Ana Nicole Smith" hits on "Urkel" (not even that seems plausible) but I don't believe that "Pamela Anderson" or even "Ann Coulter" would do the same. So again you're being ridiculous. Unless "Urkel" is rich his chances are slimmer than Bill Gates pre-Microsoft. So your naivete is just amusing. Again I'm open to tagging along with you at the Playboy mansion and watching you make your rounds as you tell these so-called mature white, Hispanic and/or Asian women that you're in the military and you haven't got your degree yet but would they mind "growing" with you. Of course a poor woman w/o a degree can grow with someone that's on a different path. But statistics show that only 4% of white women with graduate degrees are married outside of their race. So you're laughable.

And I'm a black woman in college but I'm also not looking for a relationship. I've never been in a relationship and I subsequently have never been in love and I'm in no rush. I make no complaints about being alone b/c I've learned a lot about myself. So I actually don't feel entitled to a man and especially not a black man like you inferred all black women feel. So unless "Urkel" is willing to be my friend and grow with me then I'm not going worry about "Urkel's" complex b/c it's not my PROBLEM.

And someone asked what is wrong with "Urkel" growing with women that are in his same boat? And you didn't give a good answer. So save the swan songs for "Urkel." Why can't "Urkel" grow with us "Myras," the t-shirt, jeans, jacket, and hat girls? I'm no dog and I have the ability to exude ultra-feminity on the level of Halle Berry, Salma Hayek and Marilyn Monroe. But I can't afford those extra things that enhance those feminine wiles like purfumes, lingerie, matching panties and bras, nice stiletto shoes, and etc. So you're again being silly. Not all of us college "Myra's can afford to look like Halle Berry. Even Halle Berry admitted to using her first big paycheck on a matching bra and panty splurge at Victoria Secret's that amounted to $6500.

And you're also a mess. "Other women (non-black women) grow with their men?" Let's examine that theory. First of all other races don't have a huge gender disparity when it comes to education. In 2000-2001 73,000 (+) black women earned bachelor's degrees while only 38,000 (+) black men earned the same. 60% of all degree earning blacks are women. There are more black men in prison than in college a 700,000/600,000 ratio. So you make no sense in your theory because wouldn't white, Asian, and Hispanic people have to all have those same numbers for your comparison to make sense?Wink And there are search engines out there for a reason, so try typing in keywords like "marriage demographics" or "marriage income and education." And I will warn you not to come back with laymen opinions, the facts that you find should be supported through actual dissertations and studies. Again only 4% of white women w/ graduate degrees are married outside of their race. Need I tell you about Asian and Hispanic women's numbers? And since Asian women marry out more w/ white men how much do you wanna bet those who are EDUCATED are marrried to uneducated white men? So you're actually loosing your grip on common sense.

_No finance? No romance: income and education linked to marriage plans. (Relationships).

WHEN A SURVEY POPPED THIS question: "Will you marry?" to 700 women living with their boyfriends, one out of four responded, "I won't." And it seems a man's earning power may affect a woman's decision to wed.

Sociologists Pamela Smock, Ph.D., of the University of Michigan, and Wendy Manning, Ph.D., of Bowling Green State University, found that socioeconomic status is a key factor in a cohabitating woman's expectation of marriage. An analysis of the 1995 National Survey of Family Growth reveals that women living with men of lesser economic means and lower levels of education were less likely to anticipate marrying their current partner.

Smock explained that while the expectation of marriage is almost 80 percent for white and Hispanic women with high levels of education and income who live with men of equally high socioeconomic standing, this probability falls to 50 percent when women of this same status are paired with men of low socioeconomic means. Among African-American women in this same stratum, this probability drops from 70 percent to 42 percent.

The study, published in the Journal of Family Issues, finds that experience is also linked to a waning expectation of marriage. Smock and Manning note that a woman who has been married prior to a live-in relationship shows 59 percent lower odds of expecting to wed her current partner; a woman who has cohabitated before is 49 percent less likely to anticipate a walk down the aisle.

The findings come as the number of opposite-sex cohabitating couples continues to climb from I million in the late '70s to 4.7 million in 2000. Smock attributes this in part to a growing acceptance of premarital sex.

So what about the welfare reform plan, backed by the Bush administration, which includes $300 million to promote healthy marriages through premarital education and counseling? Smock suggests that Bush's plan may sidestep the greater issue: "Marriage education and counseling aren't necessarily going to be effective for low-income couples. It makes more sense to start with economics--putting money into job training and education so they can be on solid economic footing."COPYRIGHT 2003 Sussex Publishers, Inc.
COPYRIGHT 2003 Gale Group_

So again Raheem you're amusingly naive. And don't try to misconstrue the numbers, it's plain and simple that white and Hispanic women have a 80% probability of getting married which drops to 50 if the man isn't on the same educational level and since black women have a lower probability of marriage (70%), a man w/o a degree is going to also be lower (42). So don't speak for black women and as a matter of fact don't speak for women at all. Stick to your swan song for "Steve Urkel."Big GrinWink

BTW I don't remember Urkel ever havng a chip on his shoulder like you so I think you're better off calling yourself Collin Ferguson the black man who went on a shooting spree in a New York subway. Urkel never blamed people for his idiosyncracies. So please stop misconstruing Urkel's true character.Big Grin


white women approach blk men all the time. In college, at the gym, at work, in bars, at libraries, etc...everywhere..maybe it doesn't make sense to you because your too sharp. You see, if you see a blk male dating a white female you can't tell how that relationship started...who made the first move.

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
Originally posted by IMMORTAL LOGIC:
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
Originally posted by IMMORTAL LOGIC:
A bunch of poster(like Djonmaila) putting up there little "wacky facts" About brothas most are just opinions and stereotypes,(no, black women are NOT the only women to be better educated than their men. All women in this country are better educated,and the difference between us is like what, one point,if even.


Let's be clear. You are talking about percentages. I am talking about _numbers_. If white women are going to school at similar rates as white men, then there are similar numbers of educated white males and females. If black males and females go to school at the same rates, there are still more educated black women than men at the end of the day _BECAUSE WE OUTNUMBER YOU_. That is a fact, not an opinion. If there are 50 bms in the world by age 35 and 80 bfs and half of each have degrees, if we try to pair up the degree-holders, somebody doesn't have a date. So like I was saying before, an educated black man still has more black options than his female colleagues. You should also note that while enrollment rates at colleges are slightly higher for white women than men (a new trend), for _graduation_ rates, white men are still ahead, meaning that white women are not better educated than white men.

_Okay djona lets talk raw numbers. U.S. Educational attainment of the population 25 years and over by sex and race 2002:_
_Black males to attain bachelors degrees or more 1,460_(again, just for this year.)
_Black females to attain bachelors degrees or more 2,000 _ _So the difference in raw numbers is__540_
_Census for 2001:_
_Black males to attain bachelors degrees or more 1,466_
_Black females to attain bachelors degrees or more 1,858 __for a difference of__412_ _If you check year by year you'll find the difference is only by a few hundred. So dispite YOU OUTNUMBERING US there is no huge gap like some sistas would like to think. And that's not factoring in brothas who are blue collar, in the military, or small business owners. So if a few sistas here and there can't CONDESEND to being seen with one of those brothas tough._
I read the rest of your post, and I don't disagree with you. Black men are not children, and they are certainly no more brainwashed than we are. For every black man out there who prefers blondes, there's at least one sister spending half her paycheck on weaves, perms, and peroxide. I do not think this is an indictment of men in the issue of black relationships, and you should understand that the next time you lump me with another poster who does.

djona.


[This message was edited by djonmaila on December 07, 2003 at 12:31 PM.]

The reason I lumped you in with all the other posters is because in these little men/women post, there's always some fact that is based in truth but so much has been inflated, exaggerated, omitted, distorted that it has little resemblence to the actual truth(whether intentional or not) thus the term "wacky facts."

As to the statement about you outnumbering us, your right again. But yet again you make it seem to be some huge difference. U,S, census reports:
90.6 black men for every 100 black women.
But we must all be in prison right? out of 100% of black men (18-64)7.9 are in prison, which is still high compared other races but it also means 92.1 are'nt. And let's be clear 100% of the black female population is'nt exactly running free either. And while there are more bros. in prison than sistas,america has thelargest and still fastest growing prison pop. in the world, and according the justice dept. women are the fastest growing in the u.s. and black women are the fastest growing of women(a 78%increase since the 90's). So to be honest, African american women are the fastest growing prison population in the world. In The national Urban Leagues latest "State of Black America" states that the rate of african american women inmate growth(not prisoners, just the rate)has surpassed that of african american males. Prof.Paula C. Johnson school of law Syracuse,(a sista for anyone about to scream "gender biased" or "racism")Verifies these claims with her research claiming that black women were being "incarcerated at more than twice the rate of increase as black men". At this rate in a decade, there'll be as many AA women or more in prison as AA men(would we be wrong if we told bros to look elsewhere like you did.) I'm not saying that to to be vindictive, but to say 1)the supposed "man shortage" is'nt nearly as big as some make it out to be. And 2)we all need to take a critcal look at the situations in our community, not half but all. And to answer the original question of this post, trust me, men are'nt being scared off,just tired of having to keep proving ourselves, and our worth.

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Then I heard another voice say:"come out of her,my people,so that you will not share her sins,so that you will not receive her plagues, for her sins have piled up to heaven and YAH has remembered her crimes,give her back as much as she has given;pay her back double what she has done. Mix her a double portion from her own cup. Give her as much torture and grief as the glory and luxury she gave herself."(Revelations 18:4-7)

[This message was edited by IMMORTAL LOGIC on December 07, 2003 at 05:13 PM.]




glad to see that i'm not the only one here that can use stats to back up an argument...Good job bruh thumbsup

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
Again I ask, can a black woman with a degree care for a degree-less man???


For the last time, _WE DO_. We don't have a choice. That you are still asking that question despite the fact that it has already been addressed makes me wonder whether you are looking for answers or just a scapegoat. I find it rather ironic that on the one hand you bemoan the black women who tolerate bad relationships and bad men as not being good enough for you to choose, but on the other hand, you assert that black women are too finnicky for their own good and need to settle for what they can get.

If you are angry at us for not marrying men we don't find attractive, faithful, or intellectually stimulating, then what you are really asking is why any man can't have whatever woman he wants. If you are also angry at us for lowering our standards and doing whatever it takes to get men who expect to get whatever they want, then you are a hypocrite. But berating those of us who prefer mates with an education is the equivalent of saying that black women don't deserve educated men, something you'd have a hard time saying to white or Asian women. If an uneducated brother can rightfully expect to land an educated sister, than an educated sister should not feel guilty about wanting an educated mate.



not looking for a scapegoat, just trying to understand the reasoning behind such a decision, it seems a lil too 'picky', but that's just my opinion. If I were a single blk educated woman and had a chance to date a blue collar man or no date at all, i'd say a blue collar date has gotta be better than a bitter, lonely night at home. Again, I'm just trying to understand the womenfolk...other men also are wondering why degree-less men are '2nd fiddle', if rate that high. Thanks


As far as 'standards' women on this message board 'railroaded' me when my standards included women without kids and non-fat/full figured women...why is that?? Why can women have 'standards' and men can't?? Aren't the men 'expected' to do the approaching??...esp with blk women??? Confused

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
posted by RadioRaheem:
not looking for a scapegoat, just trying to understand the reasoning behind such a decision, it seems a lil too 'picky', but that's just my opinion. If I were a single blk educated woman and had a chance to date a blue collar man or no date at all, i'd say a blue collar date has gotta be better than a bitter, lonely night at home.


The idea was that dating blue collar and not dating at all are not the only options out there, so it may be that all the waiting for and complaining about black men we do is fruitless. If there were enough blue-collar men to go around, things would be better, but even if everyone in jail got out and everyone who doesn't like black women turned around, there still aren't enough for all of the AA women. Maybe all the finger pointing on both sides and bad relationships and one-sided competition could be partly resolved if black women entered the global playing field with all the other women. It would certainly take some of the pressure off the men who feel black women have unrealistic expectations of them, and there would be less relationship frustration for the women in general. Otherwise, things won't be changing anytime soon.
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:
I think that Raheem is saying that there are some women, educated or not, are attracted to bad boys. It's not like all the Urkels of the world are blaming other women for not being attractive. From my POV, Raheem is saying that b/c the Urkel brother isn't the 1st choice for a thug-hungry woman, he shouldn't accept being the "buddy" of that woman or the constellation prize-potential husband when the thuggish baby-daddy abandons the woman.

He's not making this up. C'mon, how does anyone explain Vivica Fox with 50 Cent? What does a near-40 year old woman want with a thug???

I could understand a woman in her 20's getting with 50, like Brandy or Alicia Keys (if 50 is their type), but Vivica?


First of all, not every woman wants a thug, and of the ones who do, you can't possibly say that's a black woman's thing as Raheem was indicating. How many black entertainers are married to or dating non-black women? Yet no one steps up to say that those women are thug-hungry and should be left alone. And apparently Vivica's first husband was also a rapper. So either she likes them or there isn't much else to choose from. Her business either way.

Also the thug vs. Urkel thing is a little off. If Urkel is only going after groupies (or Vivica's), he shouldn't surprised if there are no fans clawing at his window every night. We have to differentiate here, because you are making it seem like every woman who doesn't have a man is chasing thugs. There are those, but then there's everybody else who apparently even Urkel can't be bothered with.
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
posted by RadioRaheem:
not looking for a scapegoat, just trying to understand the reasoning behind such a decision, it seems a lil too 'picky', but that's just my opinion. If I were a single blk educated woman and had a chance to date a blue collar man or no date at all, i'd say a blue collar date has gotta be better than a bitter, lonely night at home.


The idea was that dating blue collar and not dating at all are not the only options out there, so it may be that all the waiting for and complaining about black men we do is fruitless. If there were enough blue-collar men to go around, things would be better, but even if everyone in jail got out and everyone who doesn't like black women turned around, there still aren't enough for all of the AA women. Maybe all the finger pointing on both sides and bad relationships and one-sided competition could be partly resolved if black women entered the global playing field with all the other women. It would certainly take some of the pressure off the men who feel black women have unrealistic expectations of them, and there would be less relationship frustration for the women in general. Otherwise, things won't be changing anytime soon.


i have been one of the only advocates for IR dating all around on this board, for all the united colors of benetton Big Grin

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:
I think that Raheem is saying that there are some women, educated or not, are attracted to bad boys. It's not like all the Urkels of the world are blaming other women for not being attractive. From my POV, Raheem is saying that b/c the Urkel brother isn't the 1st choice for a thug-hungry woman, he shouldn't accept being the "buddy" of that woman or the constellation prize-potential husband when the thuggish baby-daddy abandons the woman.

He's not making this up. C'mon, how does anyone explain Vivica Fox with 50 Cent? What does a near-40 year old woman want with a thug???

I could understand a woman in her 20's getting with 50, like Brandy or Alicia Keys (if 50 is their type), but Vivica?


First of all, not every woman wants a thug, and of the ones who do, you can't possibly say that's a black woman's thing as Raheem was indicating. How many black entertainers are married to or dating non-black women? Yet no one steps up to say that those women are thug-hungry and should be left alone. And apparently Vivica's first husband was also a rapper. So either she likes them or there isn't much else to choose from. Her business either way.

Also the thug vs. Urkel thing is a little off. If Urkel is only going after groupies (or Vivica's), he shouldn't surprised if there are no fans clawing at his window every night. We have to differentiate here, because you are making it seem like every woman who doesn't have a man is chasing thugs. There are those, but then there's everybody else who apparently even Urkel can't be bothered with.



whitney and bobby is another example. I never said 'all' of anything. the term 'Blk people' refers to millions of folk, I need not find any point of reference that refers to 'all' of them, they are all different. My point is that some blk women are thug-thristy in their early relationships and then try to change that later. My main point again for them is to 'stick to the same plan'. If your first three babydaddies are in and out of jail thugs, why not try a 4th?? If you are not married at 30 or 35 because the thugs you dated were not into that kinda thing, too dayum bad. Leave urkel alone, like you have been doing....and blame yourself accordingly. The previous sentences that I just stated apply to alot of blk women, ALOT. Yes, there are many numerous that these thing don't apply to, but you can not ignore the fact that it is very real and very valid for a great many. Remember these thug boys have 'harems'....that's one man and many babymommas..so this 'lifestyle' I am speaking of applies to ALOT of womenfolk. You may wish to deny that, that is fine. What i'm saying is that for many urkels, these women are not worth dating or pursuing a 'real' relationship with. The blue collar/white collar thing is just another form of discrimination to me, namely due to the fact that many college people have experience in the blue collar world, i.e. post office, security guard, etc during their development into an 'educated' person. If women are holding that against a man, then they deserve to be alone....again, many bruhs on the raise, taking nightschool classes, another missed opportunity for a sister to 'grow with a bruh on the raise' Roll Eyes


as far as vivica, if she is one of those later complaining about man shortages or whatever, then her thug choice and the later refusal of urkel to take one of 50 cent's rejects is her own doing. She 'chose' to date him, and her choice tells a great deal about her and who she is Wink
***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
FYI, Foxy...ALL heterosexual men feel entitled to be with beautiful women, not just the Urkels.

Secondly, Myra was cuter than Laura, simply for the fact that she didn't ask Urkel to change himself, clone himself, never led him on, etc. In fact, she and Laura were in the same social status. The thing is that Myra was an intelligent woman who also was a hottie. She loved Urkel and therefore was labeled a nerd by association. And folks with your mentality treated as such because you all seem so obsessed with putting Urkels in their places, in addition to searching for the next roughneck/thug flavor of the month, which is nothing but a twisted urbanized version of the alpha male.
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
I never said 'all' of anything. the term 'Blk people' refers to millions of folk, I need not find any point of reference that refers to 'all' of them, they are all different. My point is that some blk women are thug-thristy in their early relationships and then try to change that later. My main point again for them is to 'stick to the same plan'. If your first three babydaddies are in and out of jail thugs, why not try a 4th?? If you are not married at 30 or 35 because the thugs you dated were not into that kinda thing, too dayum bad. Leave urkel alone, like you have been doing....and blame yourself accordingly.


My point was never that these women start going after the urkels. That was your point. My point was that your urkel never bothered to look at anyone who wasn't having kids out of wedlock or dating thugs. And again, you can't blame women for not knowing how to act without blaming the men who don't marry them, get locked up, father their kids, and leave them.

quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:The previous sentences that I just stated apply to alot of blk women, ALOT. Yes, there are many numerous that these thing don't apply to, but you can not ignore the fact that it is very real and very valid for a great many. Remember these thug boys have 'harems'....that's one man and many babymommas..so this 'lifestyle' I am speaking of applies to ALOT of womenfolk. You may wish to deny that, that is fine.


You may recall that I was the first one to point that out. Look, if this is an argument for successful men not to date hoodrats, that's one thing, but again, I don't know too many up-and-coming black men who leave the suburbs to date in the hood, do you? Most of the men these women encounter are the very thugs we were talking about to begin with, the same men who may later become the very blue collar brothers who are suddenly too good for the women who have been there from the start. I don't know too many white-collar thugs. You may wish to deny that, but that's alright, too.
Greetings Everyone Smile

I've been reading through this thread and a lot of good points have been made on either side.
There is also a lot of finger pointing and whining, and people that seem to judge others off of mere assumptions and stereotypes.

A few questions:
If urkel can have standards why can't his female counterpart? Unless its only women that should be advised to look beyond the physical.
But if the urkels go for flashy women, and the myras go for flashy men, won't there just be a lot of people without anyone?

And how do urkels tell if a woman that is interested in them is the 'type' that would have ignored them back in school? Is it restricted to women with children, or who dress a certain way, what? I'd be real upset if a man would refuse to talk to me because I reminded him of some chick in college who rejected him.

From my experience (not generalizing in any way) it seemed like for every type of guy in my school there was a sista who was interested (maybe not in some deep, super serious relationship cuz people had plenty else on their plates, but still an interest in getting closer). But many of the less popular guys focused on stuff like their lack of popularity with the flashiest females, the lack of large numbers of females hanging off of them, and the fact that females were doing some outrageous ish to get the attention of the wanna-be-thugs and flashy guys but none of that was coming their way.
They often didn't seem to notice the less flashy girls that didn't have the long or always 'done' hair and tight clothes who were interested but were not going to stoop to the flashy girls' tactics to get attention.

This is not to say that black relationship issues are the fault of the guys. There were also plenty of females in college who would do all kinds of stupid, embarassing and degrading things just to get with some guy in hopes of marking him as hers. Plenty of ladies that were so afraid of being alone (at age 20!) that they would put up with anything from a guy. And definitely some ladies that dated guys that went with the image they wanted to project, guys they thought would be more impressive to their group of friends.

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