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First let me say I think the title of this article does not necessarily fit the content of the article and is simply named such for shock value. With that said, enjoy and I look forward to the responses if any are posted. My response is I think there is a shared responsibility in the breakdown of the Black family and this article focuses on a part of that breakdown.

WHY ARE BLACK WOMEN SCARING OFF BLACK MEN?


by Tina Lester

Have you met this woman? She has a good job, works hard and earns a good salary. She went to college, got her master's degree: she is intelligent. She is reasonable, articulate, well read, interested in everybody and everything. Yet she's single.


Or perhaps you recognize the community activist. She's a black lady, or as she prefers, an African American woman on the move. She sports a short natural, sometimes corn-row braids or dreadlocks. She's an organizer, a motivator, and a dynamo. She works for her people. She organizes women for a self-help, raises funds for the community cause, and educates others around about new issues in South Africa. Black folks look up to her and white folks know she's a force to be reckoned with, yet once again the men leave her alone.


What do these women have in common? They have so much: what is it they lack? Why is it they may be able to hook a man but can't hold him?


Women puzzle over this quandary themselves. They gather at professional clubs, at sorority meetings or over coffee at the office and wonder what's wrong with black men. They hold special prayer vigils, fasting and praying and begging Jesus to send the men back to church. They find the brother who is attending political strategizing sessions or participating in protests, but when it comes time to go home, he goes home to someone else. I know these women because I am all of these women, and after asking over and over again "What's wrong with these men?" it finally dawned on me to ask, " What's wrong with us women?"


What I have found and what many of these woman have yet to discover, is that the skills that make one successful in the church, community or workplace are not the skills that make one successful in a relationship. Linear thinking, self-reliance, structured goals and direct actions assist in getting assignments done. It helps to organize church or club activities and in positioning oneself for a raise. But relationship building requires different skills. It requires making decisions that not only gratify you, but also satisfy others. It means doing things that will keep the peace rather than achieve the goal. Sometimes it means creating the peace in the first place. Maintaining a harmonious relationship will not always allow you to take the straight line between two points. You may have to stoop to conquer or yield to win.

Oftentimes when dealing with men you will have to sacrifice being right in order to enjoy being loved. Being acknowledged as the head of household is an especially important thing for many black men, since their manhood is so often actively challenged everywhere else. Many modern women are so independent, so self-sufficient, so committed to the cause, to the church, to career or their narrow concepts of same, that their entire personalities project an "I don't need a man" message. Consequently they end up without one. An interested man may be attracted but soon discovers that this sister makes very little space for him in her life. Going to graduate school is a good goal and an option that previous generations of blacks have not had. But sometimes the achieving women will place her boyfriend so low on her list of priorities that his interest wanes. Between work, school and homework, she's seldom "there" for him on the outset when a man should develop a commitment to a woman. She's too busy to prepare him a home-cooked meal or to be a listening ear because she is so occupied with her own concerns. Soon he uses her only for uncommitted sex since to him she appears unavailable for anything else. Blind to the past she plays in her mind and ends up thinking. "Men only want one thing." And she decides she's better off with the degree than the friendship.



When she's 45 she may wish she had set different priorities while she was younger.


However, it's not just the busy career girl who can't see the forest for the trees. A while ago a couple I know was having marital troubles. During one argument, the husband confronted the wife and asked what she thought they should do about the marriage, what direction they should take. She reached for her Bible and the man took it and turned to Ephesians. "I know what Paul says and I know what Jesus says about marriage," he told her. "What do you say about our marriage?" Dumbfounded, she had no response. Before the year was out the husband had filed for divorce. Women who focus on civil rights or community activism have vigorous, fighting spirits and are prepared to do whatever, wherever, to benefit black people - that 's good. That's necessary, but it needs to be kept in perspective. It's too easy to save the world and lose your man.

A fighting spirit is important on the battlefield, but a gentler spirit is wanted on the home front. Too many women are winning the battle and losing the home. Sometimes in our determined efforts to be strong believers and hard workers, we contemporary women downplay, denigrate or simply forget our more traditional feminine attributes. Men value women best for the way we are different from them, not the ways we are the same. Men appreciate us for our grace and beauty. Men enjoy our softness and it as a way to be in touch with their tender side, a side they dare not show to other men. A hardworking woman's good to have on your committee, but when a man goes home, he'd prefer a loving partner to a hard worker.

It's not an easy transition for the modern black woman to make. It sounds submissive, reactionary, outmoded, and oppressive; we have fought so hard for many things, and rightfully so. We have known so many men who were shaky, jive, and untrustworthy. Yet we must admit that we are shaky, jive, and willful in our own ways. Not having a husband allows us to do whatever we want, when and how we ant to do it. Having one means we have to share the power and certain points will have to be surrendered.


We are terrified of marriage and commitment, yet dread the prospect of being single and alone. Throwing ourselves into work seems to fill the void without posing a threat. But like any other drug, the escape eventually becomes the cage. To make the break, we need to do less and "be" more. I am learning to "be." Stop competing with black men and to collaborate with them, to temper my assertive and aggressive energy with softness and serenity. I'm not preaching a philosophy of "women should be seen and not heard." But I have come to realize that I-and many of my smart and independent sisters-are out of touch with our feminine center and therefore out of touch with our men. end.

-------------------------
"We got to organize ourselves, We got to mobilize and there can't be no confusion in our collective solution, If not for ourselves, then for our kids, because we know who our enemy is!"

DPZ "for the hood"

More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
-------------------------
There are Negroes who will never fight for freedom. There are Negroes who will seek profit for themselves from the struggle. There are even some Negroes who will cooperate with the oppressors. The hammer blows of discrimination, poverty, and segregation must warp and corrupt some. No one can pretend that because a people may be oppressed, every individual member is virtuous and worthy. Martin Luther King

More to come later! Your Brother Faheem
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LOL. I don't know what is wrong with the black man in America for you to say what you have described is scaring them off(Headline Shock Impact NOTED of course).

That is the average modern woman man. Some of us have been married for years to this kind of woman and it is GREAT. Being married to this kind of woman is a lot better than the situation in our parents time when there was only one bread winner and the woman worked hard as a slave on house chores and children and in the process lost all her beauty and charm within six months of marriage. The modern woman with all that education and earning power and her freedoms can stay young and beautiful for a lonnnng time, which is excellent, absolutely GREEAATTT. Having someone to share your financial burden and other problems to me is the best thing that can happen to any responsible man out there.

To be honest with you I don't think the modern woman is scarring off black men at all. I think the other unspoken of behaviour is what is the real problem. This behaviour is the fact that black women are now too easily accessible. You and I know this is a world of supply and demand. If something is aplenty and very easy to get the VALUE drops. Black women have made themselves too easy and cheap to the black man and we the black men take advantage of the situation. We know that marrying would rob us of the freedom of having access to every available woman out there so we find excuses and labels black women this and that as the reason why we can not marry them, when the true reason is we have it too good in the MODERN black woman and we are not man enough to admit it.

My contention is that black women have to change and become a bit more VIRTUOUS as a COMMON SENSE rule. Until then many would find themselves being continuously used and dumped.

_____________________________
Is it just talk or are you for solutions? If you are GENUINELY interested in solving black problems? Then join us at http://www.theguidedog.com/BlackNation.html
Henry, I agree with you. There are so many black women that I know personally that spend way too much time trying to make a relationship work with a guy that abuses them. Instead of just walking away, they stay and hope that the guy will eventually stop lying, cheating and stealing from them.

I think it's a self-esteem issue. Many black women have low self-esteem and may not feel as valued as they should. I think if we increase our self-esteem, a lot of issues will be resolved.
It is not just black women, ALL WOMEN are too accessible to black men. Black women have to compete with each other, hollywood images of women, white women, Asian women, Hispanic women,and the American Justice Industry for black men. All the while trying to weed out men who are on the DL, criminal, abusive, diseased, or drug addicted. I think by the time a black male is 16 years old he knows that he has two choices with women; settle down with one woman and be faithful to her or live like the world is his own little playboy club and he know that women are anxious to ablige either. So when it comes to black men, it is not just black women being too accessible, its all women.
I agree with Sunnubian. Today, black women face many obstacles in terms of relationship building. We are less respected, and less appreciated in terms of our natural beauty. More emphasis is how we look according to society's standards than on our natural God-given attributes/beauty and character. These factors and many others shape our personalities and behaviors, which in turn affects our interaction with men.

Some of us who grew up in a traditional home still maintain our mother's mentality. That is men and women have roles in the relationship. Where generally the woman is submissive and the caregiver, and the man is the protector and dominant figure. Although modern women are fighting to change the old gender roles our culture still has sex-role expectations. Those black women who do not have a problem with traditional roles their relationships admittedly seem to flourish and stay intact.

On the hand, the "modern" black woman who enforces gender equality in a relationship is not as successful and is more challenging. "You get up and get your own water." We split everything down the middle." "We both work outside the home. We both share the chores." The man plans a very special dinner date. The woman says, "I have a leadership meeting to attend tonight, so we will have to cancel our dinner date." Some black men can deal with this type woman while others can't.

I don't claim to know the answers, but it seems regardless of gender roles using common sense will make any relationship a success. I think modern women are relying on too many external forces to relate to men, -books, girlfriends' and mother's experiences. No two people are alike nor are two relationships the same. People need to learn how to relate to others on an individual basis. Learn what the person likes and dislikes. Strive to be a person that the other enjoys being around. Be considerate. Communicate. Don't try to be another woman. Be yourself. And by all means don't try to be every woman because you will fail miserably.

Bottom line, don't go into a relationship judging and with preconceived notions. We all are human and will make mistakes. I think if people keep these simple things in mind more relationships will form and more marriages will last.
The reason these "with it," "together" black women who are alone, are alone, is because too many of them have personality issues that turn guys off. They have fallen, for some reason, way too far into the trap of defining themselves by what they do for a living. They live for their career, and they carry a chip on their shoulder because of it. It's that chip that's the problem. Instead of being "professional women," they should try being "women with good careers." And, frankly, since attractiveness is a prerequisite for attraction, enough of them that I've encountered, who wonder aloud why they're alone, should consider directing some of that success-drive toward the gym. And obviously, while that sounds like an unfair generalization, I say it all to say that in a land where millions of black women are married and happy, those who are not absolutely must look within themselves to the answers to their issues. The answer will invariably lie within something about themselves, rather than within the men.
quote:
Originally posted by Len:
I think modern women are relying on too many external forces to relate to men, -books, girlfriends' and mother's experiences. No two people are alike nor are two relationships the same. People need to learn how to relate to others on an individual basis. Learn what the person likes and dislikes. Strive to be a person that the other enjoys being around. Be considerate. Communicate. Don't try to be another woman. Be yourself. And by all means don't try to be every woman because you will fail miserably.

Bottom line, don't go into a relationship judging and with preconceived notions.
I could agree more there is no such thing as "theblack man" and "theblack women. When all is said and done that's all anybody wants,to be seen and acknowledged. Not as some part of a whole but as an individual and judged for there individual efforts.

******************************
Then I heard another voice say:"come out of her,my people,so that you will not share her sins,so that you will not receive her plagues, for her sins have piled up to heaven and YAH has remembered her crimes,give her back as much as she has given;pay her back double what she has done. Mix her a double portion from her own cup. Give her as much torture and grief as the glory and luxury she gave herself."(Revelations 18:4-7)
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
The reason these "with it," "together" black women who are alone, are alone, is because too many of them have personality issues that turn guys off. They have fallen, for some reason, way too far into the trap of defining themselves by what they do for a living. They live for their career, and they carry a chip on their shoulder because of it. It's that chip that's the problem. Instead of being "professional women," they should try being "women with good careers." And, frankly, since attractiveness is a prerequisite for attraction, enough of them that I've encountered, who wonder aloud why they're alone, should consider directing some of that success-drive toward the gym. And obviously, while that sounds like an unfair generalization, I say it all to say that in a land where millions of black women are married and happy, those who are not absolutely must look within themselves to the answers to their issues. The answer will invariably lie within something about themselves, rather than within the men.
NO Vox, I totally and utterly disagree. I think the problem is more with the WESTERN black man and has nothing to do with the modern black woman. Let me throw a few personal experiences at you and you would see why.

I used to belong to a church with a lot of single men and women. The church was multi-racial so everyone was in there, Black, white, Chinese, Indian, the lot. Everyone was nice and the black girls in particular were a joy to talk to and get to know. To add to this you could tell they were deeply spiritual and not putting up a front, you could not fault them in character or conduct.

Over the years most of these single people became married couples. There was however one strange phenomena. Everyone was getting married including the black men but no one wanted the black girls. It was heart rending to see our beautiful girls treated like this. The biggest culprits were the black men. They were literally falling over themselves in their rush to grab the white, Chinese or the Indian girls for their wives. One friend married a 17 year old Indian girl from Mauritius and another married a white English girl.

Usually the church rule was that members should not marry new people that have joined the church but wait a few years for the newcomers to prove they were genuine. I noticed where a white girl joined the church; this rule did not seem to apply. Within a year or two of joining many of the white girls found themselves husbands - mainly black men. Meanwhile many of the black girls had been with the church from birth and yet no one wanted them.

As you can see from the above it was obvious the black men wanted white women over their black women. It had nothing to do with any character flaw in the black woman.

Going on from here, I will encourage you to watch how black men behave when they are with these women. They treat them a lot better than when they are with black women. The way many black men worship these other women is not how they behave with black women.

Whereas with a black woman, many would not work or spend half of their lives in jail, black men are miraculously transformed when they are with women from other races. Do you notice how rare it is to see a white woman visiting her black partner in jail? It does not happen, you tend to see them as a couple in the shops waiting and fetching for these other women. Most black men that do not help with house chores or the children become transformed to be the perfect Daddy and helper when they are with a white woman and bringing up their mixed race children.

The problem is becoming an epidemic among western black men. I say western black men because I do not see the African men behaving like this. In the UK the problem is quite acute. When you visit Newport a city in Wales, you would be shocked literally as you see every single black man with a white woman. When you ask why is this, they don't say it is because of the reasons you gave. No they say there are not enough black women. Can you believe that?

Having looked at the phenomena, I have to ask myself what is really causing this problem. Why is it that Indians men like Indian girls, Chinese men like Chinese girls etc. but Black men do not want black women?

Luckily for me based on my background I remembered that in the 50's and 60's African men went through a similar phase and then all of a sudden as if a switch was triggered they stopped behaving like this. I remembered that in the 50's most of Africa was under colonial rule and so marrying a white woman was a supreme status boost. In the 60's when most of Africa had newly attained independence, marrying white was more of a status symbol. The boost was gone so it was more like saying; "Look I am the master now and I have got his daughter to prove it." Wow we all went and looked upon these ones with envy and admiration and every African man wanted a white woman after that.

Then in the 70's something strange happened. One by one the African men started divorcing their white wives and marrying the African women. By the 80's it was a very rare sight indeed to see an African man with a white woman on his arms. By the 90's it was all over and it was an extreme embarrassment for the African man to be seen with a white woman. Try it yourself, go out and see if you can find an African man with a white woman. It is a very rare sight indeed.

So what happened? Well as I mentioned in the 50's and 60's it was more to do with the BOOSTING of SELF_ESTEEM of the black African male so he went with the white woman. The irony is that as time went on the African men had to get rid of these white women because AGAIN to do so was to save their self-esteem.

What happened is that the African woman fought back and won. They fought back with the one thing that most men pride, their high moral standards, and their virtue. When the African men married these white women they quickly discovered that the moral standard of the white women were highly questionable. Many discovered that they the men were nothing more than priced stallions to these white women and if their wives discovered there was another black man with an even bigger dick around they would do everything in their power to sample it. As you can guess very soon word went around that these white women were nothing more than whores masquerading as good wives.
On the other hand an African girl cheating on her husband would bring disgrace and shame not only on herself but also on her entire family so keeping her virtue clean and intact was a natural side to the African woman. Something no white woman could compete with and win.

As surely as day followed night, the African men began to wake up and realized their mistake and one by one they started divorcing their white women and remarrying their African girls to save their self-esteem and retain their credibility. In the last 20 years up to now most African men would not want to be seen dead with a white woman because they know they would be laughed out of town for bringing home the town whore as a wife.

Everyone is a product from their experience and from where I stand and based on what I have seen the problem of western black men not marrying the modern black woman is more a problem with the black man and not the other way round.
I believe most western black men suffer a low self-esteem problem like the African men did in the 50's and 60's and they marry white women to boost their ego and self-esteem.

Because many of the men doing this are in their 30's and below, I also blame black women for producing these men because many of these men grew up in single parent homes with their mother and somewhere along their upbringing, the mothers have damaged them enough for them to grow up and NOT WANT A WOMAN THAT REMINDED THEM OF THEIR MOTHER.

_____________________________
Is it just talk or are you for solutions? If you are GENUINELY interested in solving black problems? Then join us at http://www.theguidedog.com/BlackNation.html
quote:
THE WORKINGS OF THE "MELTING POT": INTERMARRIAGE
Certainly one mechanism by which the American melting pot works is through the intermarriages of different racial, ethnic, and national groups. By 1980, according to the U.S. Census, only one quarter of American-born, non-Hispanic whites was married to someone with an undivided ethnic heritage identical to his or her own. Take, for instance, the case of Italian Americans: of those born before 1920, some 8 percent had mixed ancestry, compared to over 70 percent of those born after 1970.

The melting pot has not, however, melded that many unions across racial lines. Roughly 99 percent of African American women and 97 percent of African American men marry one of their race. This is not to deny that considerable changes have occurred in recent decades. For every 100,000 married couples in the United States, in 1990 there were 396 black-white unions, compared to 126 in 1960.

Public attitudes and state laws have not historically promoted biracial marriages. Until the 1967 Loving v. Virginia Supreme Court decision, sixteen states, most of them Southern, had anti-miscegenation laws preventing such couplings. Since 1972, the NORC General Social Surveys have included the question "Do you think there should be laws against marriages between Blacks and whites?" In the 1972-75 period, some 38 percent of white Americans agreed with the statement. By the 1990s, only 18 percent agreed. Looking at levels of agreement by birth cohorts over time, observe that support for miscegenation laws consistently declines the younger the cohort and that cohort consensus remains basically constant over time.


http://www.trinity.edu/~mkearl/race.html



Black men are MORE likely to marry within their race than any other race of men. Why do Black men receive the most criticism when most of them are doing 'exactly' what the 'critics' want them to do?? Should that over 90% number be even higher?? perfect?? Maybe blaming Blk men for every thing that is 'wrong' or 'goes wrong' in the blk community is a 'tired' way of thinking. More to the point about blk women and blk men being 'scared', how many of these blk women are overweight, have kids, or even like blk men??
***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
Henry, I'd first suggest to you that black men who are likely to want a white woman would be inclined to seek them out in settings where multi-racial harmony is encouraged, such as a multi-racial church. I would indeed be shocked to see, for example, black members of the Baha'i faith involved with black women romantically. In fact, I'd be shocked to see even one all-black couple in such a setting.

Having said that, though, that's not really what this thread (or at least, my post) was about. The original post was about these "alpha-females," who have so much going for them but are alone. The vast majority of black women in the US are involved romantically with black men. It's mainly these "successful" ones you see claiming it's so hard to find someone. I'm sure interracial interest has something to do with it, but I've met enough "middle-class" type women I wasn't attracted to, and vice-versa, to know that it's not as simple as the phenomena you talk about. We can agree to disagree (and our disagreement seems to stem from personal observation, so that's that), but I strongly believe that a person who is not happy with their situation should look to themselves as the default source of their solutions.
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:

It's mainly these "successful" ones you see claiming it's so hard to find someone... but I've met enough "middle-class" type women I wasn't attracted to,


Vox, thru various social programs I have worked with, I can testify it's not just the "dreaded successful sista" who is lamenting about lack of romantic choices. The sistas on welfare or in the projects, the sistas in the next cubicle at work, the sistas at church, and the Oprah/Condi type sistas too. Also please help us understand what you mean when you reference the oft repeated "...and I've met enough middle class type women I wasn't attracted to"
AND?
quote:
Originally posted by henry38:
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
The reason these "with it," "together" black women who are alone, are alone, is because too many of them have personality issues that turn guys off. They have fallen, for some reason, way too far into the trap of defining themselves by what they do for a living. They live for their career, and they carry a chip on their shoulder because of it. It's that chip that's the problem. Instead of being "professional women," they should try being "women with good careers." And, frankly, since attractiveness is a prerequisite for attraction, enough of them that I've encountered, who wonder aloud why they're alone, should consider directing some of that success-drive toward the gym. And obviously, while that sounds like an unfair generalization, I say it all to say that in a land where millions of black women are married and happy, those who are not absolutely must look within themselves to the answers to their issues. The answer will invariably lie within something about themselves, rather than within the men.
NO Vox, I totally and utterly disagree. I think the problem is more with the WESTERN black man and has nothing to do with the modern black woman. Let me throw a few personal experiences at you and you would see why.

I used to belong to a church with a lot of single men and women. The church was multi-racial so everyone was in there, Black, white, Chinese, Indian, the lot. Everyone was nice and the black girls in particular were a joy to talk to and get to know. To add to this you could tell they were deeply spiritual and not putting up a front, you could not fault them in character or conduct.

Over the years most of these single people became married couples. There was however one strange phenomena. Everyone was getting married including the black men but no one wanted the black girls. It was heart rending to see our beautiful girls treated like this. The biggest culprits were the black men. They were literally falling over themselves in their rush to grab the white, Chinese or the Indian girls for their wives. One friend married a 17 year old Indian girl from Mauritius and another married a white English girl.

Usually the church rule was that members should not marry new people that have joined the church but wait a few years for the newcomers to prove they were genuine. I noticed where a white girl joined the church; this rule did not seem to apply. Within a year or two of joining many of the white girls found themselves husbands - mainly black men. Meanwhile many of the black girls had been with the church from birth and yet no one wanted them.

As you can see from the above it was obvious the black men wanted white women over their black women. It had nothing to do with any character flaw in the black woman.

Going on from here, I will encourage you to watch how black men behave when they are with these women. They treat them a lot better than when they are with black women. The way many black men worship these other women is not how they behave with black women.

Whereas with a black woman, many would not work or spend half of their lives in jail, black men are miraculously transformed when they are with women from other races. Do you notice how rare it is to see a white woman visiting her black partner in jail? It does not happen, you tend to see them as a couple in the shops waiting and fetching for these other women. Most black men that do not help with house chores or the children become transformed to be the perfect Daddy and helper when they are with a white woman and bringing up their mixed race children.

The problem is becoming an epidemic among western black men. I say western black men because I do not see the African men behaving like this. In the UK the problem is quite acute. When you visit Newport a city in Wales, you would be shocked literally as you see every single black man with a white woman. When you ask why is this, they don't say it is because of the reasons you gave. No they say there are not enough black women. Can you believe that?

Having looked at the phenomena, I have to ask myself what is really causing this problem. Why is it that Indians men like Indian girls, Chinese men like Chinese girls etc. but Black men do not want black women?

Luckily for me based on my background I remembered that in the 50's and 60's African men went through a similar phase and then all of a sudden as if a switch was triggered they stopped behaving like this. I remembered that in the 50's most of Africa was under colonial rule and so marrying a white woman was a supreme status boost. In the 60's when most of Africa had newly attained independence, marrying white was more of a status symbol. The boost was gone so it was more like saying; "Look I am the master now and I have got his daughter to prove it." Wow we all went and looked upon these ones with envy and admiration and every African man wanted a white woman after that.

Then in the 70's something strange happened. One by one the African men started divorcing their white wives and marrying the African women. By the 80's it was a very rare sight indeed to see an African man with a white woman on his arms. By the 90's it was all over and it was an extreme embarrassment for the African man to be seen with a white woman. Try it yourself, go out and see if you can find an African man with a white woman. It is a very rare sight indeed.

So what happened? Well as I mentioned in the 50's and 60's it was more to do with the BOOSTING of SELF_ESTEEM of the black African male so he went with the white woman. The irony is that as time went on the African men had to get rid of these white women because AGAIN to do so was to save their self-esteem.

What happened is that the African woman fought back and won. They fought back with the one thing that most men pride, their high moral standards, and their virtue. When the African men married these white women they quickly discovered that the moral standard of the white women were highly questionable. Many discovered that they the men were nothing more than priced stallions to these white women and if their wives discovered there was another black man with an even bigger dick around they would do everything in their power to sample it. As you can guess very soon word went around that these white women were nothing more than whores masquerading as good wives.
On the other hand an African girl cheating on her husband would bring disgrace and shame not only on herself but also on her entire family so keeping her virtue clean and intact was a natural side to the African woman. Something no white woman could compete with and win.

As surely as day followed night, the African men began to wake up and realized their mistake and one by one they started divorcing their white women and remarrying their African girls to save their self-esteem and retain their credibility. In the last 20 years up to now most African men would not want to be seen dead with a white woman because they know they would be laughed out of town for bringing home the town whore as a wife.

Everyone is a product from their experience and from where I stand and based on what I have seen the problem of western black men not marrying the modern black woman is more a problem with the black man and not the other way round.
I believe most western black men suffer a low self-esteem problem like the African men did in the 50's and 60's and they marry white women to boost their ego and self-esteem.

Because many of the men doing this are in their 30's and below, I also blame black women for producing these men because many of these men grew up in single parent homes with their mother and somewhere along their upbringing, the mothers have damaged them enough for them to grow up and NOT WANT A WOMAN THAT REMINDED THEM OF THEIR MOTHER.

_____________________________
Is it just talk or are you for solutions? If you are GENUINELY interested in solving black problems? Then join us at http://www.theguidedog.com/BlackNation.html


maybe that church should have set up a 'singles ministry' to have more interaction with the single folk. All too often, Black women seem to have trouble 'putting themselves' out there and 'mingling' in social circles with men. I would comment on your 'stereotypical' views of IR coupling, but to that i'll just say 'PUNT' Big Grin

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
"Black men are MORE likely to marry within their race than any other race of men. Why do Black men receive the most criticism when most of them are doing 'exactly' what the 'critics' want them to do?? Should that over 90% number be even higher?? perfect?? Maybe blaming Blk men for every thing that is 'wrong' or 'goes wrong' in the blk community is a 'tired' way of thinking. More to the point about blk women and blk men being 'scared', how many of these blk women are overweight, have kids, or even like blk men??"

That's probably true, but that's not really the problem, either. The problem is that black women outnumber black men starting around age 18 (or 16, I forget) due to incarceration and murder rates, which disproportionately affect young black men between the ages of 18 and 34. Couple that with the fact that even if black men marry interracially less than men of other races, they are still marrying outside at rates up to 10 times as high as black women do, which means that black women really get the short end of the stick. That explains some black women putting up with cheaters, abusers, and general fools just to stay partnered - they have little choice.

In addition, non-black or mixed-race beauty is fast replacing traditional black beauty (any commercial with a "black" female these days is proof of this) and has become the "new black", so that the dating opportunities for men are greater than they are for us in large part because we have little or no interest in men who aren't black. So where half of our community is embracing multi-culturalism, black women, even those who are not overweight or unattractive or difficult, often fall behind non-black women who are.

This does not mean that all the blame, if there is any, should fall on the shoulders of the men. It means, in a very real sense, that we need to stop kidding ourselves. The earlier poster who said that too many of us were tolerating abusive or undesirable men just to keep one was right. We need to broaden our horizons just as our men have or we risk continuing the cycle of being single mothers, divorcees, and frustrated waiting-to-exhale professionals. I personally love black men and am married to a West African, but if I were single, I wouldn't be holding my breath. At my age, the creme are already either seriously dating or married, and only a few to black women. I don't see the point in being lonely when there are millions of handsome, successful, hardworking men out there who don't happen to be black.

djona.
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
"Black men are MORE likely to marry within their race than any other race of men. Why do Black men receive the most criticism when most of them are doing 'exactly' what the 'critics' want them to do?? Should that over 90% number be even higher?? perfect?? Maybe blaming Blk men for every thing that is 'wrong' or 'goes wrong' in the blk community is a 'tired' way of thinking. More to the point about blk women and blk men being 'scared', how many of these blk women are overweight, have kids, or even like blk men??"

That's probably true, but that's not really the problem, either. The problem is that black women outnumber black men starting around age 18 (or 16, I forget) due to incarceration and murder rates, which disproportionately affect young black men between the ages of 18 and 34. Couple that with the fact that even if black men marry interracially less than men of other races, they are still marrying outside at rates up to 10 times as high as black women do, which means that black women really get the short end of the stick. That explains some black women putting up with cheaters, abusers, and general fools just to stay partnered - they have little choice.

In addition, non-black or mixed-race beauty is fast replacing traditional black beauty (any commercial with a "black" female these days is proof of this) and has become the "new black", so that the dating opportunities for men are greater than they are for us in large part because we have little or no interest in men who aren't black. So where half of our community is embracing multi-culturalism, black women, even those who are not overweight or unattractive or difficult, often fall behind non-black women who are.

This does not mean that all the blame, if there is any, should fall on the shoulders of the men. It means, in a very real sense, that we need to stop kidding ourselves. The earlier poster who said that too many of us were tolerating abusive or undesirable men just to keep one was right. We need to broaden our horizons just as our men have or we risk continuing the cycle of being single mothers, divorcees, and frustrated waiting-to-exhale professionals. I personally love black men and am married to a West African, but if I were single, I wouldn't be holding my breath. At my age, the creme are already either seriously dating or married, and only a few to black women. I don't see the point in being lonely when there are millions of handsome, successful, hardworking men out there who don't happen to be black.

djona.


I completely agree
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
"Black men are MORE likely to marry within their race than any other race of men. Why do Black men receive the most criticism when most of them are doing 'exactly' what the 'critics' want them to do?? Should that over 90% number be even higher?? perfect?? Maybe blaming Blk men for every thing that is 'wrong' or 'goes wrong' in the blk community is a 'tired' way of thinking. More to the point about blk women and blk men being 'scared', how many of these blk women are overweight, have kids, or even like blk men??"

That's probably true, but that's not really the problem, either. The problem is that black women outnumber black men starting around age 18 (or 16, I forget) due to incarceration and murder rates, which disproportionately affect young black men between the ages of 18 and 34. Couple that with the fact that even if black men marry interracially less than men of other races, they are still marrying outside at rates up to 10 times as high as black women do, which means that black women really get the short end of the stick. That explains some black women putting up with cheaters, abusers, and general fools just to stay partnered - they have little choice.

In addition, non-black or mixed-race beauty is fast replacing traditional black beauty (any commercial with a "black" female these days is proof of this) and has become the "new black", so that the dating opportunities for men are greater than they are for us in large part because we have little or no interest in men who aren't black. So where half of our community is embracing multi-culturalism, black women, even those who are not overweight or unattractive or difficult, often fall behind non-black women who are.

This does not mean that all the blame, if there is any, should fall on the shoulders of the men. It means, in a very real sense, that we need to stop kidding ourselves. The earlier poster who said that too many of us were tolerating abusive or undesirable men just to keep one was right. We need to broaden our horizons just as our men have or we risk continuing the cycle of being single mothers, divorcees, and frustrated waiting-to-exhale professionals. I personally love black men and am married to a West African, but if I were single, I wouldn't be holding my breath. At my age, the creme are already either seriously dating or married, and only a few to black women. I don't see the point in being lonely when there are millions of handsome, successful, hardworking men out there who don't happen to be black.

djona.



I agree somewhat, but note that in any 'comparison' both sides need to be analyzed. For example, many young blk women refuse to date college classmates [steve urkel types] and men in the military [BTW the military represents the LARGEST GROUP of Interracial dater/marriages/couplings]. Members of the military, by rule, must be crime free and 'positive' people. This is an 'untapped' market. If you are looking at IR couples, both groups, Urkel type and military men, need to be put in focus, because, as an 'alumni' of both of those institutions, I have seen and experience a VERY LARGE amount of love for women of other races. Those men are on the 'building' stages of their development and are 'futuristic'...why can't they have a black woman's support?? Also, note that both groups are among the poorest adult citizens in our society. Why don't blk women want to 'grow with' a man on the rise?? This is a very difficult question when you are talking about to the 'rejected', later to be known by many mature black women as 'desirable' men after college and military and they enter the world of work as 'educated' and 'highly professional'....again, what's wrong with growing with a man at your college or in the military?? Seems like that not too much to ask, esp. if one of the only alternatives is IR dating

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
Trying to figure out why Tyrone married Becky instead of Keisha is a fruitless endeavor. Hating on Tyrone and Becky for getting married is fruitless too....No one is scaring off anyone else. It seems like alot of folks have cast off the tradition of marrying your own race, for a new tradition of marrying/dating for happiness....
quote:
Originally posted by ThaWatcher:

It seems like alot of folks have cast off the tradition of marrying your own race, for a new tradition of marrying/dating for happiness....


Of course you beg the question of why more are looking for "happiness" in interracial relationships in the first place.


There is no passion to be found playing small, in settling for a life
that is less than the one you are capable of living. - Mandela
quote:
....For example, many young blk women refuse to date college classmates [steve urkel types] and men in the military [BTW the military represents the LARGEST GROUP of Interracial dater/marriages/couplings]. Members of the military, by rule, must be crime free and 'positive' people. This is an 'untapped' market. If you are looking at IR couples, both groups, Urkel type and military men, need to be put in focus, because, as an 'alumni' of both of those institutions, I have seen and experience a VERY LARGE amount of love for women of other races. Those men are on the 'building' stages of their development and are 'futuristic'...why can't they have a black woman's support?? Also, note that both groups are among the poorest adult citizens in our society. Why don't blk women want to 'grow with' a man on the rise?? This is a very difficult question when you are talking about to the 'rejected', later to be known by many mature black women as 'desirable' men after college and military and they enter the world of work as 'educated' and 'highly professional'....again, what's wrong with growing with a man at your college or in the military?? Seems like that not too much to ask, esp. if one of the only alternatives is IR dating


Excellent
I too am an alumni of both. I couldn't buy a date 20 years ago, and now all of a sudden I am considered a prime opportunity (go figure). The same ones that wouldn't give me a 2nd look or got upset if I dated outside of my race are now all of a sudden trying to figure out why I'm still single with no kids.
I don't feel I have been frightened off buy black women, but after the BS of the past years I see no reason to waste my time on someone/anyone who all of a sudden has had a change of heart about who they want in their life, just b/c the dreams they saw didn't pan out.

Catch
What bothers me most about this type of discussion is the generalizing. I am not Black Women; I am one woman who can only speak for herself and hope that the men I encounter appreciate me for myself and don't lump me into the baggage of the collective mass of black women he has ever known or heard of. When we stop seeing each other as individuals, aren't we practicing bigotry of a sorts?
[QUOTE]Originally posted by isistah:
What bothers me most about this type of discussion is the generalizing. I am not Black Women; I am one woman who can only speak for herself and hope that the men I encounter appreciate me for myself and don't lump me into the baggage of the collective mass of black women he has ever known or heard of. When we stop seeing each other as individuals, aren't we practicing bigotry of a sorts?/QUOTE]

That is understandable and I will admit that even though I try to look at people as individuals something may be said or done that sets off an alarm and they get put into the pile with the rest.
For the holidays I spent time with my parents and my sisters (lil bro had to work). Since I may retire in this area I took the time to do some house hunting.
The questions asked were the usual ones; name, age, maritial status etc. As soon as they found out I was single the questioning went to why I wanted the size house I wanted, in the neighborhoods I wanted especially without children or a steady relationship.
Maybe it was me but based on past experiences those types of questions did set off an alarm and I did go into a defensive mode probably shutting out a decent person who meant no harm at all.
Maybe I have become a bigot or as my friends are betting, "I will never be in a serious relation with a black woman again".
brofrown

Catch
Regarding the interracial couples comments

This is truly sad, while the voices on this forum are not representative of the masses of black men. They nonetheless represent a growing number of mentalities among black men. In my local community, interracial couples are increasing most of which are black men with non-black women. Overall, interracial couples were rare in my state for years, but not anymore.

I believe sisters are taking note of the message that black men are conveying. And I'm even hesitating to say black men on this board because some may not be black but posing as such to convey a message. Whatever the case, it is alarming. If two-thirds of black women take on this same mindset we are going to see a drastic change in the black community. I predict within the next five to ten years we will see our community change culturally and ethnically. It's inevitable.

Further, I resent the insinuation that one can only find happiness outside one's race. If you got yourself together you can be just as happy with someone inside your race. You make your own happiness. That's the problem people are looking for happiness in other people, places, and things instead of looking within themselves.

And let me dismiss the lie that black women don't support or grow with their men. My husband and I didn't have a pot to piss in when we got married. We stood by each other. There are a host of other black women and men who have done the same. Besides, that there are young women who support their men. If you're attracting a bunch of non-supportive, emotional draining women into your life then maybe you should do some self-inventory. I am a firm believer that you attract to you the same energy that you give out.

Lastly, time out for making excuses for your choices, be man or woman enough to say your preference. It is your right.

To be a champion is to convert obstacles into stepping stones.
Everyone here had valid points, especially about IR relationships. It's true that we bm date within our race than any other group.

I mean, if every black male alive were acquitted and released from prison, those who are on the DL, and every black male child born right now and grew up into adulthood, had married a black woman, there would still be 1.5 million to 2 million black women w/o a black spouse. It wouldn't be enough.

What should those 2 million sisters do? Twiddle their thumbs and wait or find a good man, despite being non-black?
quote:
Originally posted by Len:
And let me dismiss the lie that black women don't support or grow with their men. My husband and I didn't have a pot to piss in when we got married. We stood by each other. There are a host of other black women and men who have done the same. Besides, that there are young women who support their men. If you're attracting a bunch of non-supportive, emotional draining women into your life then maybe you should do some self-inventory. I am a firm believer that you attract to you the same energy that you give out.

Lastly, time out for making excuses for your choices, be man or woman enough to say your preference. It is your right.


Hey vice pres. Len,
1. Let me apologize if it seemed like I was insinuating IR relationships are a way out. My parents are a great inspiration to me as they have been together for a loooong time, so yes there are people/couples that compliment each other very well.

2. I'm curious as to why you think people are attracted to the same "vibe" that is given off? It seems like a lot of relationships these days are based upon fallacies to start with so unlike what past generations used to form bonds (trust, commitment, communication, and so on) those things have taken a back seat to the need for security, acceptance and the "bling-bling".
Once again speaking for me
Support is not the issue, its when we supposedly see the same thing and have the same goals but once a commitment is made or my back is turned its the old (180 deg). So where does my vibe fit in?


I'm not sure if the "be man or woman enough" comment was directed at me but if it was, I thought I did state my preference;
I see no reason to waste my time on someone/anyone who all of a sudden has had a change of heart about who they want in their life, just b/c the dreams they saw didn't pan out.
Big Grin

Catch
Hello Dear cyber friend, Ocatching: brosmile

No apology needed. My comment is directed to whomever makes an excuse for dating or marrying outside his or her race. That is placing the blame on the other person's character. One's bad experiences could have been of one's own making or bad choices. I liken it unto a racist who hates all blacks because of one bad experience or hearsay. It is stupid!

What I mean by you attract the same energy that you give out. For example, if a brother's preference is non-black women he may give out pleasant vibes to non-black women. They in turn attract these women to them. On the other hand, that same brother may send out nonchalant or semi-friendly vibes to a sister, thus attracting the same attitude from a sister. The point is if you attract mostly women who wish to take advantage of you, you need to examine why these victimizers are attracted to you.

I don't buy into that jive about people's motives nowadays compared to yesterday. We all have personalities that we can control. My personality 23 years ago is no different from young women today. They have the same option to choose their behaviors and standards. The problem stems from people being selfish and self-centered. Everyone wants their own way and no one is willing to compromise or endure character differences long enough to form a relationship. Consequently, they make excuses and move on to the next person. Not realizing that same character flaw will follow them in any relationship. That is why I say if one cannot be happy with a person in their race. They are likely not to be happy with someone outside their race. If you are happy with yourself you can be happy with anybody.

Only take my words personal if they fit. winkgrin

To be a champion is to convert obstacles into stepping stones.
People do mature and change. What may have been important to them in the past, may not be as important to them today. I think that is fair. That's why a guy that was once not so attractive to you may later be very attractive.

Yes, there are lots of women-white and black- that are materialistic. Don't assume that a single, fairly attractive female is single because she's looking for a guy with lots of money. She may just be shy and not aggressive enough to make her availability known. That's where the lack of confidence and self-esteem comes to play. Many parents did not know how to develop self-esteem in their kids (male and female).

Personally, I've dated two guys that were in the military. One moved away and then later passed away.. The other one happened to be a dog. This doesn't mean that I will not date a guy in the military again. I just know that some guys want to portray that "playa playa" attitude.
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:

_It's mainly these "successful" ones you see claiming it's so hard to find someone... but I've met enough "middle-class" type women I wasn't attracted to, _


Vox, thru various social programs I have worked with, I can testify it's not just the "dreaded successful sista" who is lamenting about lack of romantic choices. The sistas on welfare or in the projects, the sistas in the next cubicle at work, the sistas at church, and the Oprah/Condi type sistas too. Also please help us understand what you mean when you reference the oft repeated "...and I've met enough middle class type women I wasn't attracted to"
AND?


N.S., I'm not going to answer your question. The out-of-context-taking you've done with my quote is so sloppy that you didn't even bother to eliminate the comma in one, and when you did, in the second one, there's no punctuation at all. This tells the reader that the sentence is incomplete, and that there was more to the thought that you omitted. You ought to know me well enough on this site to know that if I intended to disparage "middle class" women, I wouldn't've tried to camouflage it in the middle of a larger point. I know these points we're discussing can be contentious, and that we tend to get passionate about our point of view on important topics like the state of our relationships, but let's not start with all of the silly stuff.
quote:
I agree somewhat, but note that in any 'comparison' both sides need to be analyzed. For example, many young blk women refuse to date college classmates [steve urkel types] and men in the military [BTW the military represents the LARGEST GROUP of Interracial dater/marriages/couplings]. Members of the military, by rule, must be crime free and 'positive' people. This is an 'untapped' market. If you are looking at IR couples, both groups, Urkel type and military men, need to be put in focus, because, as an 'alumni' of both of those institutions, I have seen and experience a VERY LARGE amount of love for women of other races. Those men are on the 'building' stages of their development and are 'futuristic'...why can't they have a black woman's support?? Also, note that both groups are among the poorest adult citizens in our society. Why don't blk women want to 'grow with' a man on the rise?? This is a very difficult question when you are talking about to the 'rejected', later to be known by many mature black women as 'desirable' men after college and military and they enter the world of work as 'educated' and 'highly professional'....again, what's wrong with growing with a man at your college or in the military?? Seems like that not too much to ask, esp. if one of the only alternatives is IR dating


I hear you, but it works both ways. For every black woman I knew in college who dated out, there were three black men who did the same. I went to school in Baltimore and I had friends at Morgan State who told me that the average female to male ratio at that time was something like 12 to 1. Now I know that women are under pressure to "marry up" and aren't always looking for an old reliable when there are so many hotrods out there, but if Morgan was any example, black women are hardly aiming as high as other women. Many of them can't even get old reliable. A few of the guys I knew at Morgan had honest-to-god harems. One fathered 6 kids (with 5 women) in the space of 4 years and each the mothers knew about the others, and each was waiting in the wings for him to leave the other ones. And that's beside the ones who didn't end up pregnant. Another guy was living with one girlfriend, dating a classmate, and had a long time girlfriend back in Beltsville. Guys would break up with girls at the drop of a hat just to see how many they could go through in a semester. It was ridiculous (and it is part of the reason I stopped dating African Americans in college).

There were similar stories at other schools in the area, and with Baltimore as a background, it was even worse. Of all the cities in this country, Baltimore has the single highest rate of unwed women per capita. Baltimore proper is 95% black. Practically every crackhead, every thug, every abusive good-for-nothing has a girlfriend, and probably a wife to boot, and there are still women left over. And it's not much different anywhere else. Basically, if we are left out, it can't possibly be because we are too picky. Even in Baltimore, black women marry black more than men do.

The thing that is most irritating about it is that we as women face a lot of conflicting pressure. We have family members who see that we are successful and motivated and want to see us with successful men. On the other hand, there is also constant pressure not to be too picky, to settle for someone who earns less or hasn't gone to school, or is otherwise less successful. That especially irritates me because I am perfectly aware that if I were not black, no one in their right mind would say such a thing. Of all the races, however you choose to define them, we as black women come the closest to our men in income, and we are the only women in the country to be better educated than our men. And so we do marry less successful men and military men and Urkels, etc. If we are all going to marry black, we can't all have a choice.

djona
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
The reason these "with it," "together" black women who are alone, are alone, is because too many of them have personality issues that turn guys off. They have fallen, for some reason, way too far into the trap of defining themselves by what they do for a living. They live for their career, and they carry a chip on their shoulder because of it. It's that chip that's the problem. Instead of being "professional women," they should try being "women with good careers." And, frankly, since attractiveness is a prerequisite for attraction, enough of them that I've encountered, who wonder aloud why they're alone, should consider directing some of that success-drive toward the gym. And obviously, while that sounds like an unfair generalization, I say it all to say that in a land where millions of black women are married and happy, those who are not absolutely must look within themselves to the answers to their issues. The answer will invariably lie within something about themselves, rather than within the men.

quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
Vox,
Do you repeat macho bullcrap on purpose? or is it just to get a rise out of the sistas? Your responses are usually so intelligent and rational...


N.S., first of all, what Isaid wasn't "repeating" anything. I never hear anybody say any of the things that I've said. All of the media, and all of the women, and all of the people, period, whom I hear talk about this issue, swear that the problem is that men are "turned off" or "intimidated" by "strong women," or women who are successful. The idea that there may be something about these women themselves, personality-wise, or otherwise, that fails to attract the men they want, is one that I personally never hear unless it comes out of my own mouth, or the words of very few others. Maybe I'm not reading the right magazines, listening to the right TV or radio shows, or participating in the right conversations, to have heard my p.o.v. enough to be able to "repeat" it. And what's so macho about saying that the root of a person's misfortune may lie within that person?

I should apologize, because these kinds of arguments (between you and me) are usually the result of doing what I've done, which is base broad statements on my own personal observations. That's what a person's opinions are often based on, and that's fine, but it's true that our personal observations usually are inherently limited. I understand that, so hopefully you won't take these statements too much to heart. But I do believe them, and I wish more of the women would at least consider the possibility that there's more that they could do themselves.
quote:
Originally posted by Len:
Hello Dear cyber friend, Ocatching: brosmile
.........The point is if you attract mostly women who wish to take advantage of you, you need to examine why these victimizers are attracted to you.


That does make sense, but if a person tried to give off a totally different vibe to attract a specific individual wouldn't that still be misleading?
I guess what I'm asking is if a vibe says "sucka" at 6 o'clock what can a person do to change that? If he puts in some fake gold teefus, and smacks the person around what good is that? (He/she is no longer being true to him/her self).

Founding Father...AKA MBM
We can solve all these problems; all we need to do is start a AA.org match making service. With all this insight how can we go wrong...This would be a sure fire money maker!
rotflmao

And to think people laugh at me when I read Essence, Sister, Black Woman, Cosmo (et. al.) and view "a sista's spot" to reach my feminine side.


Catch
It is interesting reading over all the responses to this article. Many of you have offered rebuttals to the phenomenon written about in this article as if this phenomenon is not real as observed by the writer and many other Black men and women. This article does not negate any of what has been said, nor does any of what has been said negate this article. As I said prior to posting this article; there is a shared responsibility in the breakdown of the Black male and female (black family) relationship.

In response to some of what has been said, I must say having served in the military myself I can not identify with this mentality that Black women were not interested in young brothers in the Military. I served on the east and west coast and over seas and never once dated a non black woman. Too often brothers in the military think their guaranteed pay on the first and fifteenth should make women fall to their feet and secondly most military bases are surrounded by towns that are majority white. Here in So.Cal near Camp Pendleton a Black man see at minimum twenty white women for every Black woman he sees, even so if a brother wanted a sister he sure as hell can get one. All the brothers I know that refuse to date non black women always found a Black woman. Last point on this is that many of the brothers in my experience complaining about the lack of Black women interested in them, really translated to the Black women they think are attractive not finding them attractive and the Black women that do find them attractive, they don't find attractive. So if brother can't have a Black woman that is a dime he will take a white woman who is a nine before he take the black woman who some would say is a seven. (My apologies to any women who are offended by me applying numbers to women as to equate their beauty with a number)

As far as the IR aspect of this, I do not believe all those who have chosen to date non black men and women were driven to the arms of these men and women. All of us have experienced let down and heartbreak with a mate we had in the past and this letdown and heart break is not a reason to act as if you have been offended by all Black women or men. All of my bad experiences with women have been with Black women but you know what, all of my good experiences have been with Black women and I wouldn't change that for the anything. Wink

-------------------------
"We got to organize ourselves, We got to mobilize and there can't be no confusion in our collective solution, If not for ourselves, then for our kids, because we know who our enemy is!"

DPZ "for the hood"

More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
" guess what I'm asking is if a vibe says "sucka" at 6 o'clock what can a person do to change that? If he puts in some fake gold teefus, and smacks the person around what good is that?"

Well, I hope you don't desire the type of woman that character will attract. rotflmao

Hardness in men is not necessarily attractive to all women. I only see this entire thug loving stuff on the Internet among mostly young people. As for older women who want men to show affection by beating they have some serious issues (IMO). Personally, if I were a man I'd get the hell out of dodge. Life is too precious and uncertain for unnecessary drama.

I'm positive there are sisters who are attracted to kind, gentle natured men. Maybe something has prevented you from meeting them. Maybe it's the places or environment where you presently meet women . Or maybe victimizers' have a quality that you are initially attracted to. Maybe you're overlooking the type woman you truly desire. Ocatching only you can accurately answer the question. Think about it.

Enough of Dr. Len tonight. Big Grin

Much Respect Ocatching!

[This message was edited by Len on December 01, 2003 at 10:00 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
Vox,
Do you repeat macho bullcrap on purpose? or is it just to get a rise out of the sistas? Your responses are usually so intelligent and rational...
N.S., first of all, what Isaid wasn't "repeating" anything. I never hear anybody say any of the things that I've said. All of the media, and all of the women, and all of the people, period, whom I hear talk about this issue, swear that the problem is that men are "turned off" or "intimidated" by "strong women," or women who are successful. The idea that there may be something about these women themselves, personality-wise, or otherwise, that fails to attract the men they want, is one that I personally never hear unless it comes out of my own mouth, or the words of very few others. Maybe I'm not reading the right magazines, listening to the right TV or radio shows, or participating in the right conversations, to have heard my p.o.v. enough to be able to "repeat" it. And what's so macho about saying that the root of a person's misfortune may lie within that person?

I should apologize, because these kinds of arguments (between you and me) are usually the result of doing what I've done, which is base broad statements on my own personal observations. That's what a person's opinions are often based on, and that's fine, but it's true that our personal observations usually are inherently limited. I understand that, so hopefully you won't take these statements too much to heart. But I do believe them, and I wish more of the women would at least consider the possibility that there's more that they could do themselves.
Well said Vox. One of the things I like about the Internet message boards is the fact that you can say things that you cannot say in real life. In real life both men and women misled each other and the end result is you can date someone for years and never really know that person.

I see discussion boards to be an arena where we can be really be honest to each other. Express ourselves freely due to the anonymity of cyberspace and if one is here to learn, one can be confident that the opinions expressed is how some people REALLY feel about issues. Unfortunately there is this tendency by sisters in particular on the board to gag and control what brothers' say. You can see it happening in this topic by how the sisters react when they don't like a brother's POV. The end result is you can sense the life and spirit going out of the discussion and it dies out. I think it is unfortunate because if we follow the cue of some of you the sisters we would never be any the wiser and the message board would be a very boring place indeed.

In real life men know women like us men to talk and act in a certain way and we respond by telling women what they want to hear. There are things I would say on the Internet that I would not repeat in real life. The Internet is an information zone and we come here to really learn, if we start saying things that massages our egos what really is the point in logging on. One might as well go out with friends and watch one's "P" and "Q" in converstion

I don't think what Vox said is macho bull crap at all. I might not agree with him which I am entitled to and expressed but I believe what he said is valid and on point as what he sees and says is based on his background and experiences. I believe if more men and women TRULY expressed their views on the opposite sex without fear of praise or criticism it would go a long way and help with more honest and secure relationships.

_____________________________
Is it just talk or are you for solutions? If you are GENUINELY interested in solving black problems? Then join us at http://www.theguidedog.com/BlackNation.html
Henry, most of what you said is spoken from a male point of view and if you can not see why it would be seen as chauvinistic, then it is easy to understand why you believe when the sisters give their POV you believe the life and spirit of the discussion is lost. The complete opposite of what you stated is true as well; men like for women to talk and act in a certain way and they respond by telling men what they want to hear. Earlier you were placing the blame on the "western man", what has changed between that post and your most recent one so much that you now say if we were to follow the cue of some of the sisters on this board that we would not be any wiser. Can you give the names of those whom you believe if we followed their cue we would never be any wiser? With the anonymity the internet provide you should have no problem letting us know which sisters are dummying down the messageboard.

-------------------------
"We got to organize ourselves, We got to mobilize and there can't be no confusion in our collective solution, If not for ourselves, then for our kids, because we know who our enemy is!"

DPZ "for the hood"

More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
quote:
Originally posted by djonmaila:
quote:
I agree somewhat, but note that in any 'comparison' both sides need to be analyzed. For example, many young blk women refuse to date college classmates [steve urkel types] and men in the military [BTW the military represents the LARGEST GROUP of Interracial dater/marriages/couplings]. Members of the military, by rule, must be crime free and 'positive' people. This is an 'untapped' market. If you are looking at IR couples, both groups, Urkel type and military men, need to be put in focus, because, as an 'alumni' of both of those institutions, I have seen and experience a VERY LARGE amount of love for women of other races. Those men are on the 'building' stages of their development and are 'futuristic'...why can't they have a black woman's support?? Also, note that both groups are among the poorest adult citizens in our society. Why don't blk women want to 'grow with' a man on the rise?? This is a very difficult question when you are talking about to the 'rejected', later to be known by many mature black women as 'desirable' men after college and military and they enter the world of work as 'educated' and 'highly professional'....again, what's wrong with growing with a man at your college or in the military?? Seems like that not too much to ask, esp. if one of the only alternatives is IR dating


I hear you, but it works both ways. For every black woman I knew in college who dated out, there were three black men who did the same. I went to school in Baltimore and I had friends at Morgan State who told me that the average female to male ratio at that time was something like 12 to 1. Now I know that women are under pressure to "marry up" and aren't always looking for an old reliable when there are so many hotrods out there, but if Morgan was any example, black women are hardly aiming as high as other women. Many of them can't even get old reliable. A few of the guys I knew at Morgan had honest-to-god harems. One fathered 6 kids (with 5 women) in the space of 4 years and each the mothers knew about the others, and each was waiting in the wings for him to leave the other ones. And that's beside the ones who didn't end up pregnant. Another guy was living with one girlfriend, dating a classmate, and had a long time girlfriend back in Beltsville. Guys would break up with girls at the drop of a hat just to see how many they could go through in a semester. It was ridiculous (and it is part of the reason I stopped dating African Americans in college).

There were similar stories at other schools in the area, and with Baltimore as a background, it was even worse. Of all the cities in this country, Baltimore has the single highest rate of unwed women per capita. Baltimore proper is 95% black. Practically every crackhead, every thug, every abusive good-for-nothing has a girlfriend, and probably a wife to boot, and there are _still_ women left over. And it's not much different anywhere else. Basically, if we are left out, it can't possibly be because we are too picky. Even in Baltimore, black women marry black more than men do.

The thing that is most irritating about it is that we as women face a lot of conflicting pressure. We have family members who see that we are successful and motivated and want to see us with successful men. On the other hand, there is also constant pressure not to be too picky, to settle for someone who earns less or hasn't gone to school, or is otherwise less successful. That especially irritates me because I am perfectly aware that if I were not black, no one in their right mind would say such a thing. Of all the races, however you choose to define them, we as black women come the closest to our men in income, and we are the only women in the country to be better educated than our men. And so we do marry less successful men and military men and Urkels, etc. If we are all going to marry black, we can't all have a choice.

djona


you bring up many good points. Having brought of the 'drama addicts' and that man in college with this 'harem'. My question is...what man would want to date a woman that made those choices?? I mean, why would an educated, profesional 'desireable' man put himself thru that drama?? I think alot of women refuse to see themselves [or their friends] as not dateable or undesireable to the 'bro-folk' they desire. In all fairness here, compare these women to other races of women...are other race women so likely to be drama addicted?? Does that 'good good man' have 'enough DRAMA to keep that woman 'entertained'?? What if he has no kids of his own/no babymomma drama?? If they marry [the man and one of those harem women you described] would she like to have any more kids?? What would become of her kids and her babydaddy drama she choice to have?? Is the new man 'expected to 'raise' someone else's young, in lieu of his own?? Are their lives [other race women] less clouded?? Are they more dateable?? These are the some of the many questions many bruhs wrestle with when dating 'outside'

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
Faheem,

Nothing has happened to my views and I stand by them. Why you think I have changed my stand is puzzling to me as I have not said ANYTHING to indicate I have done so. Disagreeing with someone does not mean you can not see their POV. Therefore saying I disagree with Vox but his views are on point and valid does not mean I have changed my position and POV and adopted his.

In a nutshell what I said that you seem to have a problem with is this. "On the Internet people should feel free to say what they like without fear of praise or criticism" I hope you understand that.

And please don't attribute anything to me that was not demonstrated in this topic because as far as I can read I did not say anything in this particular topic of yours for you to interpret as being chauvinistic. So that comment is neither here nor there and I will put it down to you having an issue with me in your head than anything I said in this topic.

I am surprised that you cannot see that this post is dead. It died when dissent was being watered down and if you are an honest man you can see that for yourself, if not, then that is your problem not mine for you to ask me to name anyone. I am sure you are intelligent enough to know that it is the FEW opinionated brothers and sisters that keep the board alive and not those who are too afraid of dissent to really say what they feel or think on any issues.

_____________________________
Is it just talk or are you for solutions? If you are GENUINELY interested in solving black problems? Then join us at http://www.theguidedog.com/BlackNation.html
"One of the things I like about the Internet message boards is the fact that you can say things that you cannot say in real life. In real life both men and women misled each other and the end result is you can date someone for years and never really know that person. I see discussion boards to be an arena where we can be really be honest to each other. Express ourselves freely due to the anonymity of cyberspace and if one is here to learn, one can be confident that the opinions expressed is how some people REALLY feel about issues. Unfortunately there is this tendency by sisters in particular on the board to gag and control what brothers' say. You can see it happening in this topic by how the sisters react when they don't like a brother's POV. The end result is you can sense the life and spirit going out of the discussion and it dies out." -Henry

Message boards are not a true representation of the masses. They only represent a few minds of the populace. I don't come online thinking everything written is legit, or that the person who is writing a message is always being honest and sincere. Anonymity also gives way to fakes, liars, and people with no good intentions.

I rarely comment on this board, mainly because time does not permit. Nonetheless, what I have observed is "some" of you men who claim women respond emotionally to a topic. You do the very same thing especially when we disagree with you. It is my view that every poster has a right to express him or her self however and whenever they see fit! That is within MBM/board's guidelines.

I may not agree with your perspective and may rebut or keep silent. Whatever I choose is my right! Other poster's are at liberty to respond or let the topic die. If you feel the need to stand by your convictions then you should do so. If participants let the topic die because of a few oppositions then perhaps they were not firm in their convictions.

I truly appreciate how Ocatching handled my response. He didn't get emotional and attack my person, but responded to the message.

**********
You run into problems when you start generalizing, even though what you say may be true for a large part of the group. The truth is it is not true for the entire group. Nor does one's personal observation represent the entire group. So, when you generalize you're not being accurate and are likely to meet opposition.

In sum, it is my view that every poster should have the courage to say what is on his or her mind regardless to how others may respond. But some of you shouldn't flatter yourself into thinking a lack of response is an indication of cowardliness. It could be your statements are so ignorant that they don't merit a response.

[This message was edited by Len on December 02, 2003 at 09:31 AM.]
quote:
Originally posted by ocatchings:
quote:
....For example, many young blk women refuse to date college classmates [steve urkel types] and men in the military [BTW the military represents the LARGEST GROUP of Interracial dater/marriages/couplings]. Members of the military, by rule, must be crime free and 'positive' people. This is an 'untapped' market. If you are looking at IR couples, both groups, Urkel type and military men, need to be put in focus, because, as an 'alumni' of both of those institutions, I have seen and experience a VERY LARGE amount of love for women of other races. Those men are on the 'building' stages of their development and are 'futuristic'...why can't they have a black woman's support?? Also, note that both groups are among the poorest adult citizens in our society. Why don't blk women want to 'grow with' a man on the rise?? This is a very difficult question when you are talking about to the 'rejected', later to be known by many mature black women as 'desirable' men after college and military and they enter the world of work as 'educated' and 'highly professional'....again, what's wrong with growing with a man at your college or in the military?? Seems like that not too much to ask, esp. if one of the only alternatives is IR dating


Excellent
I too am an alumni of both. I couldn't buy a date 20 years ago, and now all of a sudden I am considered a prime opportunity (go figure). The same ones that wouldn't give me a 2nd look or got upset if I dated outside of my race are now all of a sudden trying to figure out why I'm still single with no kids.
I don't feel I have been frightened off buy black women, but after the BS of the past years I see no reason to waste my time on someone/anyone who all of a sudden has had a change of heart about who they want in their life, just b/c the dreams they saw didn't pan out.

Catch


thanks catch...are Blk women expecting educated, ex-military, professional blk men to 'turn their backs on' the only women that have dated them up to that point??...just because they had a 'change of heart' and those women want to be married to a 'made man'?? I also refuse and have seen many of those SAME women in my past that said 'let's just be friends' when I was in college or military all of the sudden want to hang out and date me...i tell them ten years later 'Let's just be friends'...and they get angry rotflmao Thanks again bro...Semper Fi!!

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream
quote:

And let me dismiss the lie that black women don't support or grow with their men. My husband and I didn't have a pot to piss in when we got married. We stood by each other. There are a host of other black women and men who have done the same. Besides, that there are young women who support their men. If you're attracting a bunch of non-supportive, emotional draining women into your life then maybe you should do some self-inventory. I am a firm believer that you attract to you the same energy that you give out.





this is just the plain truth. Maybe you are not in your middle to late twenties and can not imagine the current reality, but this is just the way things are. I challenge you to quiz single, childless, college aged blk women and see what kinds of men that date...it's not steve urkel. Other races of women have a long history of dating steve urkel's of whatever race. It seems like the Blk male as an idiot [i.e. uneducated, dangerous, drug selling] gets the MOST attention for young black women. Just ask a single young black mom to describe her ex-husband...OOPS I MEAN baby daddy...and you'll see what i'm saying. Wink

Maybe you are not a veteran of the military and can't related to the current situtation, but the reality is reality. For the most part, you couldn't PAY a young black woman..under the age of 25 to date or even consider a college student or a military man [again both positive and futuristic groups of men-folk]...many of them will proud claim 'I want me a Thug!!!....fortunately other races of women are willing to date these 'undesireables' Love is love, color is not really that important....Again, i'm just stating plain fact based of observations in my life, friend's lives, and others around me that are parts of those 'two' groups of 'undesirable' blk men. God Bless

***********************************************************
'Sometimes life is obscene' - Black Crowes

Commerical Hall of Fame - All time list

'Who in the hell left the gate open???' Confused

'Somebody put roots on me' Frown

'I've fallen, and I can't give up!!!' broscream

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