Who Would Be the Better President for Black America?

Ebony! You know you ain't right!

I'm tempted to pull and EP and refrain from voting...

But, with the courage of my own convictions... I voted for Hillary.

quote:

Originally posted by Black Viking:
Ebony! You know you ain't right!

I meant no harm! It's just a simple little question!

Clarence Thomas....

voting for him will be evidence of his popularity with black people (something he's longed for his whole life), thus correcting his inner childhood self hating stigma which drives his anti-black political views....

either that.....

or buy one or the other off like errrybody else....

It's just a simple little question!---EbonyRose

Like....When did you stop beating your husband??????

That was downright...COLD!!!

I won't vote for either in that election.

I will follow my own advise, and write in my name.

PEACE

Jim Chester

Clarence Thomas or Hillary Clinton?


I'd have to go independent and support JWC's campaign...maybe we can do some chicken dinner fundraisers and get him the matching funds?

Can I change my vote to JWC?

I'd have to go independent and support JWC's campaign...maybe we can do some chicken dinner fundraisers and get him the matching funds?---negrospiritual

Can I change my vote to JWC?---Black Viking

Do I sense a 'grassroots' demand for my candidacy?????

Considering the competition...

I accept!!!!!!!!

PEACE

Jim Chester

quote:

Originally posted by Black Viking:
Ebony! You know you ain't right!

I'm tempted to pull and EP and refrain from voting...

But, with the courage of my own convictions... I voted for Hillary.

I still say as long as there is a parliamentary system of "democracy", there might as well be multi-party elections. So we don't have to end up choosing between Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum come election time.

quote:

Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:
That was downright...COLD!!!

LOL ... well, hard realities sometimes are, Mr. Chester!

You know, the thing is ... I do get the "because he's Black" thingy. I really do. I mean, so am I, so what's really for me not to understand? Black folk have to stick together to push ourselves forward. That has always been our way to progress. This is a prime opportunity to make that happen. I get that. I understand and I have no problem with it.

What I probably can't get you and your male brethen to understand, though, (which is beside the point, because reality is what it is) is that, I am just as much of a woman as I am Black. The same thing that made me one, made me the other. It's a packaged deal ... sort of like two halves of the same whole. And I have the same degree of pride, and have the same dynamic sense of purpose of being a woman as I have about being Black. Quite frankly, I feel that I am just as blessed to be a woman as I am to be descended from African people. And, as such, there are perspectives and considerations on both sides of who I am. Trying to overrule one side over the other is not some 'flip a coin' type of endeavor. I have to do what's right for my people, for my community, for my men, for our families. That has been our job since the beginning of time. As a WOMAN. (Legend says that that's what we were created for in the first place! But that's another thread. )

But, the bottom line is, I have responsibilities that I have to fulfill through every aspect of me. You, as a Black man, have yours that you have to do for us. And I, as a Black Woman, have mine.

Now, if my goal here is to vote for whom I believe would be the best person to lead the country at this time, then I have to, as a Black Woman (the whole of me) consider the considerable ramifications of having a Woman in the White House!! The benefits of that would be numerous. No offense, but it has been a man (and a string of men before him) that has got us so totally screwed up right now that we (literally) (and except for Israel) can't find a friend in the world!! And, yes, a WOMAN could be and probably is what is needed to straightened some of this mess out. There are things ... a lot of things... that need to be taken care of. Fixed. Put back on the right track. In the way that women do that. Always have and always will.

So, all things considered, I know that the ramifications, the benefits, the value historically, and most importantly, the difference that the change from White male leadership will have on this country. The question is, will that value be realized most substantially through the election of a female OR an African American as President of the United States?

Now, the "choke" comes from it being that particular woman and that particular Black male. I think this thread shows that voting for just any Black man does not generate into what's "best for the Black community." A vote for Clarence Thomas is like making your own noose and putting it around your own neck. And then waiting for him to kick your stool out from under you. At that point, that little White woman isn't necessarily all that bad, now is she?? If the question is "what's best for us?" the answer is not so cut-and-dried.

And so the questions of, Is Hillary, herself, viable?? Is she capable? Is she qualified? She may not be liked ... but if a woman is needed in that spot (and, yes, one is), can she do what needs to be done? .. are the ones that needs to be asked. Black men may not be asking them .. but we are .. we have to .. we do and we will.

As has been said a hundred times, Barack is not running for president of Black America. He's running for president of the United States. Well, neither/so is Hillary. It's not a singular question of what she (nor him) can do for Black America. It's a question on what can either/both of them do for us all. So, the bottom line is ... for many of us Black women consideration/support for Hillary is NOT a rejection of Obama. It doesn't mean we think that he is "less than ..." her ... or anything or anyone else, for that matter.

We are, as as we have always done, for you (men), for our people, for our kids, for our communities, for our uplift, for our push forward and for our very lives ... weighing the possibilities for the best possible outcome. We are, (as Ms. Rowe likes to call it) using our "cultural capital" who determine who brings what to the table .. what we should do with it. And that choice is difficult, because there are benefits all around. And (again, no offense) but despite you wonderful male people, we do (and will) do what we gotta do - the way we always have - to keep our train on the right track! We would just appreciate less opposition and the refrain from having our judgment, loyalty, trust and devotion questioned while we make one of the most important decisions of our life and time right now!

We, Black Women, have not/do not/will not abandon you. But that loyalty, trust and devotion thing needs to swing both ways. And these days, that door is just being shut in our faces by the enthusiasm and ego that dominates the Black male psyche! But some of us are getting a little tired of it, though. And it's 'bout time some of you menfolk put it in check and give us a break!



:: Ebony steps off of her soapbox, and waits for the Good Sistas to fan her down ::

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:

No offense, but it has been a man (and a string of men before him) that has got us so totally screwed up right now that we (literally) (and except for Israel) can't find a friend in the world!! And, yes, a WOMAN could be and probably is what is needed to straightened some of this mess out. There are things ... a lot of things... that need to be taken care of. Fixed. Put back on the right track. In the way that women do that. Always have and always will.

Just out of curiosity, do you believe that a white woman - or any woman - that could get elected president would dismember white supremacy? How about the fundamentals of capitalism/imperialism?

To be clear, what exactly - do you think a woman would/could do to "fix" things? How would their leadership be any different for America?

Furthermore, to bring the question from the realm of the philosophical down to reality, what - exactly - do you see Hillary Clinton doing to solve these things? Do you have specific information about white women, generally, that leads you to your conclusions? In your opinion, have they historically "looked out" for black women in ways that inform your perspective? How about specific information about Hillary herself?

I'm not disagreeing with your contention, or with any specific notions about the benefits of female leadership, I'm just curious about what informs your opinions here? Do you have information about women leadership in other institutions in America where their presence has brought about fundamental positive change - i.e where women in charge have fundamentally dismantled an oppressive status quo in ways that specifically benefit African America?

Just curious.

Do what's best for the black community? I'll use my vote to stop you from creating similar polls in the future.

And seriously, do we really want this from a president: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBypp2hqxaQ

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:

No offense, but it has been a man (and a string of men before him) that has got us so totally screwed up right now that we (literally) (and except for Israel) can't find a friend in the world!! And, yes, a WOMAN could be and probably is what is needed to straightened some of this mess out. There are things ... a lot of things... that need to be taken care of. Fixed. Put back on the right track. In the way that women do that. Always have and always will.

Just out of curiosity, do you believe that a white woman - or any woman - that could get elected president would dismember white supremacy? How about the fundamentals of capitalism/imperialism?

To be clear, what exactly - do you think a woman would/could do to "fix" things? How would their leadership be any different for America?

Furthermore, to bring the question from the realm of the philosophical down to reality, what - exactly - do you see Hillary Clinton doing to solve these things? Do you have specific information about white women, generally, that leads you to your conclusions? In your opinion, have they historically "looked out" for black women in ways that inform your perspective? How about specific information about Hillary herself?

I'm not disagreeing with your contention, or with any specific notions about the benefits of female leadership, I'm just curious about what informs your opinions here? Do you have information about women leadership in other institutions in America where their presence has brought about fundamental positive change - i.e where women in charge have fundamentally dismantled an oppressive status quo in ways that specifically benefit African America?

Just curious.

P.S I find it curious that some question Barack's ability to impact or change the status quo as a black president yet out of hand presume that Hillary will because she's a woman.

And we are talking about 'black' America????

And a European-America is the better choice over African American?

This is conclusion cannot be based on merit.

Where is the proof-of-merit in the history of Senator Clinton??

A listing of just one is an acceptable start.

I cannot...will not...characterize the logic...or its absence.

PEACE

Jim Chester

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
Just out of curiosity, do you believe that a white woman - or any woman - that could get elected president would dismember white supremacy?

That's not fair, MBM.

No one had made that claim.

quote:

To be clear, what exactly - do you think a woman would/could do to "fix" things? How would their leadership be any different for America?

The idea is that a woman in office hasn't been tried. So there's certain amount of encouragement *not* to go with the status quo in this matter.

quote:

Furthermore, to bring the question from the realm of the philosophical down to reality, what - exactly - do you see Hillary Clinton doing to solve these things? Do you have specific information about white women, generally, that leads you to your conclusions? In your opinion, have they historically "looked out" for black women in ways that inform your perspective? How about specific information about Hillary herself?

Haven't we already defined that the Presidential election is *not* only about Black people?

quote:

Originally posted by Empty Purnata:

quote:

Originally posted by Black Viking:
Ebony! You know you ain't right!

I'm tempted to pull and EP and refrain from voting...

But, with the courage of my own convictions... I voted for Hillary.

I still say as long as there is a parliamentary system of "democracy", there might as well be multi-party elections. So we don't have to end up choosing between Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum come election time.

EP,
I could not agree with you more. And I am completely stymied at why this has not gained any traction in the African American community. I am not simply talking about 3rd party candidates, but proportional representation. We could at least immediately institute preferential voting or instant-runoff voting.

quote:

Just out of curiosity, do you believe that a white woman - or any woman - that could get elected president would dismember white supremacy? How about the fundamentals of capitalism/imperialism?

I don't believe that ANYBODY who gets elected president will dismember white supremacy. Not out of this group, anyway! And that goes for capitalism/imperialism too.

My answer to your question would be as follows:

#1) The best chance we had of getting rid of (or at least dealing a blow to) corporatism and capitalism was Dennis Kucinich. as president. Period. He was the ONLY man with the ONLY plan to do something even remotely close to that. And since Hillary's (nor Barack's) agenda will ever be comparable to anything like it, I don't see any change to the status quo anytime in the near future.

#2) Also, I believe that ultimately society will have to dismember the vestiges of white supremacy ... not the government or whoever may be prez. Politically, one can put all the laws on the books that they want to .. but, you will still have Jena Six's happening until enough people have a change of heart and mind. Additionally, I do believe that is happening with the more liberal attitudes of today's youth as it respects race and divisions. Perhaps in their time they will reach a point of less overall racism and and systematic discrimination.

quote:

To be clear, what exactly - do you think a woman would/could do to "fix" things? How would their leadership be any different for America?

The leadership of women has shaped the existence of man ever since she was created! I know that sounds a little vain, but it's true. I can't really explain being a woman to you, MBM. If I could find the words, I'd surely try. But, I guess as a short answer to your question I would have to say that woman are natural problem-solvers. We have an extraordinary ability of effective critical thinking in a way that men just don't possess. We hold together everything and everybody in its place, usually on a daily basis. It was because of a woman .. or perhaps many women that you are who you are today, is it not? We "fix" things, MBM. Always have and always will. And I would give you details of how and why that's possible .. but it would upset the natural order of things that have you thinking that you men are really in charge!

quote:

Furthermore, to bring the question from the realm of the philosophical down to reality, what - exactly - do you see Hillary Clinton doing to solve these things?

Nothing.

quote:

Do you have specific information about white women, generally, that leads you to your conclusions?

No, I don't.

quote:

In your opinion, have they historically "looked out" for black women in ways that inform your perspective? How about specific information about Hillary herself?

Again, MBM ... I don't believe anything like this is even possible! Nobody is going to do these things ... not Hillary, not another White woman .. not even BARACK!!

Let's get real for a minute, shall we? Barack nor Hillary nor nobody else is going to specifically take care of Black people in America, if/when they are elected! That's on the real. Barack is going to take care of AMERICA .. as a whole, first and foremost!! He has told you that over and over again. You can act like you don't want to believe that if you want to, but the reality is, the most you're probably gonna get is the restoration of a couple of public programs that Bush and the Repubs have trounced upon .. and, in business as usual fashion, the crumbs left over (we hope) will eventually trickle down. That is the way Black Americans "get" anything in this country. And according to Barack's own platform and agenda ain't nothin' about to change. If you think he's going to walk into the Oval Office dressed in a Dashiki one day, and act like Moses leading his people to the Promised Land, you're delusional and not paying very much attention to what's really going on at all.

So no, I don't expect anybody to do anything special for me, by virtue of me being either Black or a woman. I'm .. we are are gonna get the same-ol'-same-ol' either way it goes.

quote:

I'm not disagreeing with your contention, or with any specific notions about the benefits of female leadership, I'm just curious about what informs your opinions here? Do you have information about women leadership in other institutions in America where their presence has brought about fundamental positive change - i.e where women in charge have fundamentally dismantled an oppressive status quo in ways that specifically benefit African America?

I would invite you to look at any major historical event. You will find plenty of strong, powerful and dynamic women who were either leading the charge ... or were the wind underneath the wings of person who did. I know this because I am a woman. I know what we do and what we are capable of. I don't expect you to know what that feels like ... and I ain't mad at you for it .. it's not your fault you had the misfortune to be a man.

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

Just out of curiosity, do you believe that a white woman - or any woman - that could get elected president would dismember white supremacy? How about the fundamentals of capitalism/imperialism?

This is a false proposition. NO PRESIDENT is capable of dismantling white supremacy or capitalism. and is actually charged with the duty of maintaining the system. A brotha or a sista president would have to raise their right hand and swear to this.

2ndly, this is disingenuous because whenever similar sentiments about OBAMA are expressed (whether he will reduce the effect of white privilege or some such) the kneejerk response is usually something like: Don't expect him to be Malcolm X....

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:

No offense, but it has been a man (and a string of men before him) that has got us so totally screwed up right now that we (literally) (and except for Israel) can't find a friend in the world!! And, yes, a WOMAN could be and probably is what is needed to straightened some of this mess out. There are things ... a lot of things... that need to be taken care of. Fixed. Put back on the right track. In the way that women do that. Always have and always will.

Just out of curiosity, do you believe that a white woman - or any woman - that could get elected president would dismember white supremacy? How about the fundamentals of capitalism/imperialism?

To be clear, what exactly - do you think a woman would/could do to "fix" things? How would their leadership be any different for America?

Furthermore, to bring the question from the realm of the philosophical down to reality, what - exactly - do you see Hillary Clinton doing to solve these things? Do you have specific information about white women, generally, that leads you to your conclusions? In your opinion, have they historically "looked out" for black women in ways that inform your perspective? How about specific information about Hillary herself?

I'm not disagreeing with your contention, or with any specific notions about the benefits of female leadership, I'm just curious about what informs your opinions here? Do you have information about women leadership in other institutions in America where their presence has brought about fundamental positive change - i.e where women in charge have fundamentally dismantled an oppressive status quo in ways that specifically benefit African America?

Just curious.

Golly, you shouldn't expect women to be Sojourner Truth or Harriet Tubman or Fannie Lou Hamer or Angela Davis...

quote:

Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:
And we are talking about 'black' America????

And a European-America is the better choice over African American?

I remember similar sentiments being expressed during the confirmation hearings of Clarence Thomas. How Anita Hill was a traitor. HOw Anita Hill was a bitter black Golddigger... How anita Hill should not have aired dirty laundry. How anita Hill should not be a tool against that brotha. HOw the black man was being
"lynched" using a sista.

Clarence Thomas's actual philosphies were ignored because he would be a brotha on the supreme court.

While Obama is obviously not Clarence Thomas, the whole "you betta support the black man, girl" vibe is a bit paternalistic and doesn't take into consideration that some may not see much difference between a white woman and a half white black man who rose to national prominance based on his attractiveness to white women...

*disclaimer* i'm just sayin

quote:

Originally posted by Vito:
Do what's best for the black community? I'll use my vote to stop you from creating similar polls in the future.

And seriously, do we really want this from a president: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBypp2hqxaQ

Vito,

Just out of curiousity, could you please elaborate what you believe that Obama, as president, will do for Black people? How will African Americans be directly affected by his presence in the White House? What type of benefits, in your opinion, can we expect to receive?

I'm not Vito, of course, but i'll take a stab at it...


Policy wise, there isn't much difference between a hillary and a barack

they both favor some type of healthcare reform

they both favor "phased withdrawal" aka keeping troops in Iraq longer than we'd like.

they both speak of "working across the aisle"...


However, an Obama presidency would mean some indirect things...

Media figures will have to figure out how to talk about black stuff differently than they do now, unless barack goes all tiger woods and says "oh, it's nothing" for every offensive incident.

Any retiring supreme court justice is likely, but not guaranteed, to be replaced by an affirmative action supportive liberal, unless obama decides to use this as a "reaching across the aisle" moment.

The justice department could possibly be more focused on actual justice rather than conservative ass kissing and actually consider important cases.

The EEOC and Civil Rights Commission which have been turned on their heads during the Bush admin may be able to right themselves and go back to dealing with actual discrimination and voter rights cases rather than the Bush agenda which has been cases of reverse discrimination against white men and voter cases about conservative districts.


So i don't think he, himself will make any grand Black policy pronouncements, but the presence of a Black President would change the tone in many gov't agencies..

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:

#1) The best chance we had of getting rid of (or at least dealing a blow to) corporatism and capitalism was Dennis Kucinich. as president. Period. He was the ONLY man with the ONLY plan to do something even remotely close to that.

I disagree. Cynthia McKinney is running for the Green Party nomination. If all you are interested in is a platform that speaks to you then I highly recommend her.

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:

The leadership of women has shaped the existence of man ever since she was created! I know that sounds a little vain, but it's true. I can't really explain being a woman to you, MBM. If I could find the words, I'd surely try. But, I guess as a short answer to your question I would have to say that woman are natural problem-solvers. We have an extraordinary ability of effective critical thinking in a way that men just don't possess. We hold together everything and everybody in its place, usually on a daily basis. It was because of a woman .. or perhaps many women that you are who you are today, is it not? We "fix" things, MBM. Always have and always will. And I would give you details of how and why that's possible .. but it would upset the natural order of things that have you thinking that you men are really in charge!

You said that a woman would "straighten" things out. I'm merely trying to understand why you say that and what about the current woman running leads you to believe that.

You seem to infer that since I merely ask what is informing your thinking, that I somehow doubt it.

I'm just trying to understand what you do about Hillary.

quote:

quote:

Furthermore, to bring the question from the realm of the philosophical down to reality, what - exactly - do you see Hillary Clinton doing to solve these things?

Nothing.

quote:

Do you have specific information about white women, generally, that leads you to your conclusions?

No, I don't.

So - is your thinking about women "fixing things" just a theoretical one? Is Hillary somehow exempt from your thesis about female political leadership? I'm confused by your response.

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:

Let's get real for a minute, shall we? Barack nor Hillary nor nobody else is going to specifically take care of Black people in America, if/when they are elected! That's on the real.

I'm just trying to understand why you say a woman is going to "fix things". That's all.

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:

Barack is going to take care of AMERICA .. as a whole, first and foremost!! He has told you that over and over again. You can act like you don't want to believe that if you want to, but the reality is, the most you're probably gonna get is the restoration of a couple of public programs that Bush and the Repubs have trounced upon .. and, in business as usual fashion, the crumbs left over (we hope) will eventually trickle down. That is the way Black Americans "get" anything in this country. And according to Barack's own platform and agenda ain't nothin' about to change. If you think he's going to walk into the Oval Office dressed in a Dashiki one day, and act like Moses leading his people to the Promised Land, you're delusional and not paying very much attention to what's really going on at all.

Respectfully, what does this have to do with your contention about female leadership? Barack is not a woman.

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:

I'm .. we are are gonna get the same-ol'-same-ol' either way it goes.

But it seems like the premise of your whole argument is that a woman will bring a new and different style of leadership that will somehow "fix" the errors of male leadership. Again, I'm, just trying to understand why you think this - particularly in light of the fact that you seem to reject the notion that Hillary will be the agent of that positive change.

Did Margaret Thatcher "fix" England as a result of her femininity? What about Golda Meir? Did she introduce a "kindler and gentler" Israel?

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:

No offense, but it has been a man (and a string of men before him) that has got us so totally screwed up right now that we (literally) (and except for Israel) can't find a friend in the world!! And, yes, a WOMAN could be and probably is what is needed to straightened some of this mess out. There are things ... a lot of things... that need to be taken care of. Fixed. Put back on the right track. In the way that women do that. Always have and always will.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, I'm simply trying to figure out what about HILLARY leads you to believe that THIS WOMAN has the extraordinary political skills/power etc. to "fix" things in America. You seem to suggest by your comments that she doesn't. If that's that case, then what is it about her that we should be drawn to?

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:

I don't expect you to know what that feels like ... and I ain't mad at you for it .. it's not your fault you had the misfortune to be a man.

It's disappointing that you - apparently - view my question as something of a personal, or gender, assault worthy of a patronizing and dismissive response.

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
It's disappointing that you - apparently - view my question as something of a personal, or gender, assault worthy of a patronizing and dismissive response.

I can assure you, MBM, that other than the tongue-in-cheek use of word "misfortune" there was no patronizing or dismissive intent. What I tell you is the truth, honest and sincere.

I'm not sure how to put it to you in a way you will understand. Honestly, being a man, your capability for understanding the true nature of what it is like, what it means and the functionality of being a woman is simply not within your grasp. And I don't mean that in a mean or demeaning way. That's just the way it is. That is one of the reasons we are not the same.

Put bluntly for you .. you men may be out in the forefront of things, but it is by far the actions of strong women that allow a man to even appear to be in charge. The fact of the matter is, due to the rather precarious nature of the male ego, most women maintain the illusion of the primarily supportive role, especially when it comes to handling men. But in fact, it just makes it easier for us to do what we need to do to keep things in order and running smoothly. Very few men in power have gotten to where they are without a strong woman behind them.

Again, that's not intended to negate a man's worth. But it is the truth of the matter, where women are concerned.

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
It's disappointing that you - apparently - view my question as something of a personal, or gender, assault worthy of a patronizing and dismissive response.

I can assure you, MBM, that other than the tongue-in-cheek use of word "misfortune" there was no patronizing or dismissive intent. What I tell you is the truth, honest and sincere.

I'm not sure how to put it to you in a way you will understand. Honestly, being a man, your capability for understanding the true nature of what it is like, what it means and the functionality of being a woman is simply not within your grasp. And I don't mean that in a mean or demeaning way. That's just the way it is. That is one of the reasons we are not the same.

Put bluntly for you .. you men may be out in the forefront of things, but it is by far the actions of strong women that allow a man to even appear to be in charge. The fact of the matter is, due to the rather precarious nature of the male ego, most women maintain the illusion of the primarily supportive role, especially when it comes to handling men. But in fact, it just makes it easier for us to do what we need to do to keep things in order and running smoothly. Very few men in power have gotten to where they are without a strong woman behind them.

Again, that's not intended to negate a man's worth. But it is the truth of the matter, where women are concerned.

Can you share any insight about how women, and Hillary specifically", could "fix" things?

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

Can you share any insight about how women, and Hillary specifically", could "fix" things?

Hillary is running for the president of the United States of America and not The President of Black America. She shouldn't be expected to be like Angela Davis or Betty Shabazz...

Possibly because of how I was raised or because I am a man or a combination of the both... I HAVE never looked at any other man and saw myself in them or felt a coonection to them... I HAVE almost always looked at another black man and seen myself or felt a connection. I dont remove color from gender when looking at either men or women... rightly or wrongly (however rightly in my mind given the country I live in) I dont see just a woman when I look at HRC, I see a white woman and all that comes with her being that. So when it is suggested that we should give a woman a shot at running the country because we have up to this point only had men... my reply would almost certainly be "yeah, only white men" which is not about we should exhaust all the men before women are given a chance, but that the world view of black people is not quite the same as white people and maybe thats the change we need in the nation.

It appears that the "arguments" may be operating from the same basic premise: A) its time for a woman to be president because men have jacked up the country and electing Obama would just be adding to the long list of men (yes I know I have over simplified it) versus B) its time for a black person to be president because white people have jacked up the country and electing Clinton would just be adding to the long list of white people (again over simplified).

I recognize the challenge of living in a country with so many isms (sex, class, race, age, etc) and how that can complicate the lives of some citizens because they fall into more than one category. I feel no kinship to white men, so there is no sense of pride when they do anything, so when "you" speak of the white men who have been president that is not a reflection of me because their "possibilities" or "practicalities" are not mine. My life experience doesnt lend itself to having the opportunity of being black and a man in the manner ER describes. Do I intellectually overstand that my being a man and a woman being a woman in some of the same situations means different things absolutely. So I totally get why black women would be excited at the prospect of any woman having the chance of being the "leader of the free world".

I would be interested to see what the conversation would be if Condi and/or Colin were running too.

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
Can you share any insight about how women, and Hillary specifically", could "fix" things?

You know, I don't know how many times I'm going to have to keep telling you this, MBM ... because obviously, the first hundred or so have done absolutely no kind of good.

FIRST of all, I am not and never have been a "Hillary supporter" and would appreciate you not asking me to defend her politics, policies and agenda as if I were!! I have NEVER said that I thought Hillary was the *better* candidate. And you wanting to believe/hear that from me is NOT going to make it so.
I am not and have never advocated for ANYONE to vote for Hillary. I have ALWAYS placed her and Barack in the same boat/category. And my feelings about that have not changed and are not likely to.

SO PLEASE get the "You're for Hillary and against Barack" misconception out of your head once and for all!! There is simply not the slightest bit of anything even bordering on accuracy in that statement. And, in fact, it is the same untruth I heard you say when I listened to this week's radio show podcast, that I "thinking people are saying to vote for Barack 'just because he's Black'". These are fallacies, MBM, straight made-up, closed-minded, unshakable notions which you have latched onto and refuse to give up!! But, no matter how many times and it what ways you say it, it still is not going to add validity to them or make any of them true!!

What I HAVE said though, is that I believe her to a be capable, qualified and competent contender for the nomination for President. As is everybody else who is running. She lacks no credentials as compared to ANYBODY else. And that is ALL I have said as it respects Hillary .. .whatever you've thought you've understood beyond that is a result your own misguided summation. There's not anything I can do about that .. but, I'm not going to let you assess it to me as if it's true.

Now then ...

No, I cannot and will not attempt to tell you how Hillary would go about "fixing" our problems as president should she be elected. I do not know what her specific ideas are in dealing with what she'd be facing ... I do know it will be a tough job ... but, I'm not trying to be president, and have no idea how or what her - or anybody else - would do when it came to being president.

What I will repeat for you once again, though, is that women have a natural ability to be problem-solvers, unifiers, assess and address working solutions, in ways that are different from men ... and, often, to my mind even better than. The perspective that Hillary would bring to the presidency as a woman is in an of itself unique and different from anything done before.

And, again, as far as my insight goes ... with you not being woman, I have serious doubts/reservations as to my ability to explain it any more deeply to you ... and more to the point, your ability to be able to fully and thoughtfully understand.

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
It's disappointing that you - apparently - view my question as something of a personal, or gender, assault worthy of a patronizing and dismissive response.

I can assure you, MBM, that other than the tongue-in-cheek use of word "misfortune" there was no patronizing or dismissive intent. What I tell you is the truth, honest and sincere.

I'm not sure how to put it to you in a way you will understand. Honestly, being a man, your capability for understanding the true nature of what it is like, what it means and the functionality of being a woman is simply not within your grasp. And I don't mean that in a mean or demeaning way. That's just the way it is. That is one of the reasons we are not the same.

Put bluntly for you .. you men may be out in the forefront of things, but it is by far the actions of strong women that allow a man to even appear to be in charge. The fact of the matter is, due to the rather precarious nature of the male ego, most women maintain the illusion of the primarily supportive role, especially when it comes to handling men. But in fact, it just makes it easier for us to do what we need to do to keep things in order and running smoothly. Very few men in power have gotten to where they are without a strong woman behind them.

Again, that's not intended to negate a man's worth. But it is the truth of the matter, where women are concerned.

Based on this assertion and the horrible job done during the Bush administration... what type of women are Laura Bush, Lynne Cheney and Joyce Rumsfeld?

quote:

Originally posted by thabrothaman69:
So I totally get why black women would be excited at the prospect of any woman having the chance of being the "leader of the free world".

This definitely makes you an exception as opposed to the rule.

I really do appreciate your willingness to even try to understand, thabrothaman69! It doesn't seem like a lot to ask for ... but, alas, it usually is!

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:

quote:

Originally posted by thabrothaman69:
So I totally get why black women would be excited at the prospect of any woman having the chance of being the "leader of the free world".

This definitely makes you an exception as opposed to the rule.

I really do appreciate your willingness to even try to understand, thabrothaman69! It doesn't seem like a lot to ask for ... but, alas, it usually is!

But herein lies the problem: we're not talking in theory, about women generally. We're talking about a specific woman - Hillary Clinton. We're talking about a woman who' husband characterized Barack Obama's campaign as a "fairy tale". We're talking about a woman who attempted to minimize MLK's role in the CRM by saying that Lyndon Johnson was responsible for the civil rights act. We're talking about a woman who puts on a fake southern accent any time she comes close to black people. Etc.

Obama putting on a fake southern black preacher accent standing in a pulpit in SELMA alabama

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:

Obama putting on a fake southern black preacher accent standing in a pulpit in SELMA alabama

I don't hear it. Perhaps you can let me know the specific point in the clip where you think he is being fake. In any event, even if you think he is feigning an accent, does this rise to the level of fraudulence that Hillary's example there did?

Moreover - does every question of Hillary end with an answer pointing to Barack?

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:
Obama putting on a fake southern black preacher accent standing in a pulpit in SELMA alabama

Is there someone who does not do that?

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:
I'm not Vito, of course, but i'll take a stab at it...


However, an Obama presidency would mean some indirect things...

Media figures will have to figure out how to talk about black stuff differently than they do now, unless barack goes all tiger woods and says "oh, it's nothing" for every offensive incident.

Any retiring supreme court justice is likely, but not guaranteed, to be replaced by an affirmative action supportive liberal, unless obama decides to use this as a "reaching across the aisle" moment.

The justice department could possibly be more focused on actual justice rather than conservative ass kissing and actually consider important cases.

The EEOC and Civil Rights Commission which have been turned on their heads during the Bush admin may be able to right themselves and go back to dealing with actual discrimination and voter rights cases rather than the Bush agenda which has been cases of reverse discrimination against white men and voter cases about conservative districts.


So i don't think he, himself will make any grand Black policy pronouncements, but the presence of a Black President would change the tone in many gov't agencies..

Not to disagree with you, NS .. but just in an effort to better understand ... while I would agree that these things indeed possible, wouldn't you say it's also a possibility that none of them might happen?

For example, thusfar I would say that Obama has indeed taken the "Tiger" approach .. he is called the possible "first African American president" far more often than he refers to himself as the same. If he himself would rather be looked upon as a president who happens to be African American (as Colin Powell suggested) as opposed to an African American president ... then would the media really have to alter it's current conversation much at all??

Or, as far as the Supreme Court judges go .. wouldn't any Democratic president essentially install the same type of individual on the bench? I mean, isn't support for AA a wholesale "Democrat" issue?

What I'm getting at is ... take away the speculation and the guessing and supposition and the 'what if/maybe/could be/who knows' ... is there anything concrete that you have heard or seen him do or way that would confirm some kind of direct benefit to the Black community, should he be elected Prez??

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:

Obama putting on a fake southern black preacher accent standing in a pulpit in SELMA alabama

I don't hear it. Perhaps you can let me know the specific point in the clip where you think he is being fake. In any event, even if you think he is feigning an accent, does this rise to the level of fraudulence that Hillary's example there did?

Moreover - does every question of Hillary end with an answer pointing to Barack?

Damn, now the brother can't CODE SWITCH (for the non-apparent accent he's supposed to have)?


I heard some ignorant White-like poster (Native American heritage) say that his speech after the Iowa victory had an MLK like accent or twang to it. Out her ignorance (ignorant because nobody besides someone who really, really tries and studies can do King close to King)... out of her ignorance what she, no doubt, identified was the very kind of Southern preacher candance, drawl and snap that's a part of the Black rhetorical tradition most Whites (and their White-like friends) know little about in terms of it's regularity in black public speaking particularly those from a religious background like Obama.

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

Can you share any insight about how women, and Hillary specifically", could "fix" things?

Hillary is running for the president of the United States of America and not The President of Black America. She shouldn't be expected to be like Angela Davis or Betty Shabazz...

quote:

Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Damn, now the brother can't CODE SWITCH (for the non-apparent accent he's supposed to have)?

Nobody has asserted that he couldn't or shouldn't, just that he does....

out of her ignorance what she, no doubt, identified was the very kind of Southern preacher candance, drawl and snap that's a part of the Black rhetorical tradition most Whites (and their White-like friends) know little about in terms of it's regularity in black public speaking particularly those from a religious background like Obama.

How would Obama have acquired this?

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:


Moreover - does every question of Hillary end with an answer pointing to Barack?

especially when every question about Barack is interpreted as Black female disloyalty...nevermind the prominent black men making asses of themselves over hillary...