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So then you favor an annual tax on all US citizens and businesses.

My only reservation with that is that I don't think the very wealthy beneficiaries of slave labor would be paying their "rightful" share. The strain would be born by the middle/working class. So they would pay this extra tax and then get a little reparations money and be right back at square one.

But at the same time, I think it's probably the easiest and most palatable source of funding.

I can't really make up my mind, but if I had to consider nothing else but my whims, I'd say an annual tax on white people.
First of all, I would've included an "all of the above" option Frenchy. It's so hard to choose just one! lol Seriously, I think that the restitution issue will never go away until all debts are paid in full. I think we are still deciding how that debt should be paid in full.
I would like to see funds come directly from the people, governments and businesses that profited and continue to profit from legalized slavery of the past and of today.
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:

How about a category called "The Fat Chance, Stop Dreaming Negro, and Build Your Own Collective Wealth" fund?


I think we have a better shot now at reparations than any reasonable person could have thought Africans had at being emancipated and blended into society (however imperfectly) at the turn of the 19th century.
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Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:

How about a category called "The Fat Chance, Stop Dreaming Negro, and Build Your Own Collective Wealth" fund?


I think we have a better shot now at reparations than any reasonable person could have thought Africans had at being emancipated and blended into society (however imperfectly) at the turn of the 19th century.

Both are quixotic concepts.

**Sorry - I clicked the wrong button to reply to you.**
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quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:

How about a category called "The Fat Chance, Stop Dreaming Negro, and Build Your Own Collective Wealth" fund?


I think we have a better shot now at reparations than any reasonable person could have thought Africans had at being emancipated and blended into society (however imperfectly) at the turn of the 19th century.


I don't think so. An example of restitution that was ordered by the federal government was the payment of money to black farmers who were actively discriminated against in getting loans to save their farms. The judgement was for the Department of Agriculture to pay the farmers. As of last the judgement against the Department of Agriculture has not been paid in full. As a matter of fact, some black farmers marched down ot D.C. in 2004 to demand payment in full. This story was ONLY covered by black press.
This is a clear example of misconduct on part of the American government that affected only African-Americans, it was proven in a court of law, restitution was ordered and STILL has not been paid. This was only a few million dollars. How do you think that companies, governments and individuals would react to losing a potential of billions of dollars?
I don't think they're going to come up off that kind of money at ANY time in history. Sorry MBM
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First of all, I would've included an "all of the above" option Frenchy. It's so hard to choose just one! lol


*Yemaya approaches every white person she sees with a clipboard.*

"Sir, have you or any one in your family tree ever own slaves, benefitted from slave labor, knew someone who owned slaves and didn't criticize them in any way, laughed during a showing of 'Roots', or ever used the phrase 'What's the big deal? Slavery is over'?"

"You have?"

*Fills out an invoice.*

"Please remit your payment immediately."


laugh

There really are a whole lot of people that should be getting a bill if we are going to narrow it down to who rightfully deserves to pay.

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How about a category called "The Fat Chance, Stop Dreaming Negro, and Build Your Own Collective Wealth" fund?

Then you feel Black people should pay for reparations. How? An annual fee based on income mailed to a Black organization? Where does the money for the Fat Chance Fund come from?
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Originally posted by Shango67:

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Then you feel Black people should pay for reparations. How? An annual fee based on income mailed to a Black organization?

Actually, I am against the movement and do not support it.


Are you against it because you feel it is an impractical/impossible challenge or because you disagree that slave descendants deserve it?
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Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:

quote:
Then you feel Black people should pay for reparations. How? An annual fee based on income mailed to a Black organization?

Actually, I am against the movement and do not support it.


Are you against it because you feel it is an impractical/impossible challenge or because you disagree that slave descendants deserve it?

Impractical, impossible and a supreme waste of talent, time, and human resources.
Even if you are against the movement, you clearly feel that Black people are owed something and are functioning at some sort of handicap (otherwise we wouldn't need the Fat Chance Fund). What I want to know is where this money in your opinion should come from. How does Black America get the money to improve our situation?
I can't answer your question Frenchie cause I disagree with part of the premise... The "handicap" is mostly due to our inability to reject non-liberating ideology such as integration and assimilation - and therefore, there isn't any amount or combination of land or money that can lead to Black empowerment.

Okay... let me ask this question.

What are the goals and objectives of the movement?
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Originally posted by Shango67:
I can't answer your question Frenchie cause I disagree with part of the premise... The "handicap" is mostly due to our inability to reject non-liberating ideology such as integration and assimilation


Okay, but the other part of it is fiscal, no? How does Black America "get its money straight?" bsm
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Originally posted by Frenchy:
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
I can't answer your question Frenchie cause I disagree with part of the premise... The "handicap" is mostly due to our inability to reject non-liberating ideology such as integration and assimilation


Okay, but the other part of it is fiscal, no? How does Black America "get its money straight?" bsm

In a capitalist society, the only way to get our money straight is to move from consumer to producer. The movement does not address this issue. In fact, it is a monetary issue and not a fiscal one. It does not make any sense to put MORE money into the hands of people who are already consumer driven and motivated.
The definition of fiscal I am using is "having to do with finances" not the definition partaining to government finances.

I very much agree that any upward movement in a capitalist society must address controlling goods/industry. Which is why I want to know how you think Black people go about doing this. Where specifically does the money for improvement come from in a perfect world, if you could instantly think and make it so?

I'm not speaking on behalf of any movement. Smile
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Originally posted by Frenchy:
Which is why I want to know how you think Black people go about doing this. Where specifically does the money for improvement come from in a perfect world, if you could instantly think and make it so?


quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
In a capitalist society, the only way to get our money straight is to move from consumer to producer..... It does not make any sense to put MORE money into the hands of people who are already consumer driven and motivated.


IMO, the money is there... what's lacking is the will...the vision...

We don't necessarily need a massive infusion of capital.

We need to start making better use of our own human and material resources.
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Especially our own human resources. Sometimes I think black folk are our own worst enemies... light skinned against dark skin... men against women... Christian against non-believer.... straight against gay..

We waste a lot of our own energy fighting absolutely useless battles and suppressing other black folk...

People say we need more 'UNITY'.... whatever that is... I think what we need is less infighting.
I wish I understood more about our national deficit, which is supposedly money that we owe ourselves (or so I've been told by my USAP teacher). But well, if that were money that we didn't necessarily need, then I'd say that should be the source for reparations. But another issues that comes up is what is done with this money. I mean, I think that what had been disussed earlier is the assimilation and consumer relationship that most African-Americans have been drawn into, unconsciously in most cases. (At least that's what I believe, because many African-American communites are not educated about feedback relationships with companies and consumers and the like.) Sodas, chips, expensive clothing, expensive shoes (i.e. Nike and others), cell phones, car rims, rap and the rappers that form close-knit relationships with businesses aimed at young cosumers (such as Sprite), etc. Even if we do receive reparations, what are we going to do with the money? I mean, I figure it'll end up going straight back to the giver if we don't utilize it with a clear and brillant vision in mind. There are a lot of things that can be done... so many things if we had reparations. Hmm... I don't even know how much money would be received...

Um, anyway... that's my input. Sorry if I'm inaccurate at times... heh, this is my first time joining in a discussion here. ^.^;;
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Originally posted by Kendra:
Um, anyway... that's my input. Sorry if I'm inaccurate at times... heh, this is my first time joining in a discussion here. ^.^;;


No problem, Kendra... thanks for contributing!

quote:


I mean, I think that what had been disussed earlier is the assimilation and consumer relationship that most African-Americans have been drawn into, unconsciously in most cases. (At least that's what I believe, because many African-American communites are not educated about feedback relationships with companies and consumers and the like.) Sodas, chips, expensive clothing, expensive shoes (i.e. Nike and others), cell phones, car rims, rap and the rappers that form close-knit relationships with businesses aimed at young cosumers (such as Sprite), etc. Even if we do receive reparations, what are we going to do with the money? I mean, I figure it'll end up going straight back to the giver if we don't utilize it with a clear and brillant vision in mind. There are a lot of things that can be done... so many things if we had reparations. Hmm... I don't even know how much money would be received...


Who was the comedian who said that if we got reparations then the very next day white folk would be a lot richer?

I think Dave Chappelle did a reparations skit and that's what happened.
I recall that comedy skit... but all I remember is that African-Americans spent money on... rims, and other things. Hmm... and certain industries rose due to that increase in affluence in the Black community. But... I don't really recall anything about Caucasian people becoming richer... but that could have been the final result. I just don't completely remember.
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Originally posted by Kendra:
I recall that comedy skit... but all I remember is that African-Americans spent money on... rims, and other things. Hmm... and certain industries rose due to that increase in affluence in the Black community. But... I don't really recall anything about Caucasian people becoming richer... but that could have been the final result. I just don't completely remember.


you're probably right... it's late at night and my brain is slowing down...
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Originally posted by Frenchy:
I think a lot of times we get sidetracked with what people would do with the reparations and the millions of ways that could go wrong. I think for the moment it's better to put some thought into where the money/resources would come from. Smile



I disagree... reparations would be a useless if it didn't help us.... and without some idea of what we would we do with the money, fighting for reparations is pretty senseless...

But that's just my view...
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
The definition of fiscal I am using is "having to do with finances" not the definition partaining to government finances.


I'm not speaking on behalf of any movement. Smile

Frenchy,

We are cool on the fiscal vs monetary issue. However, I do think it is worth looking at considering how much money (cash) would be placed into the economy if Africans were to win a class action verdict - or in another miracle - if congress authorized it; the market place would change in the short and long run.
quote:
I very much agree that any upward movement in a capitalist society must address controlling goods/industry. Which is why I want to know how you think Black people go about doing this. Where specifically does the money for improvement come from in a perfect world, if you could instantly think and make it so?

This question is a great one and a source of constant fuss; especially in my conversations with MBM and some others.

I don't have an answer that could satisfy people who support reparations. However, I don't believe that Black folks will take their back pay and use it to build wealth. I don't see non profit organizations or religious organizations using the money to build wealth. Currently, we spend more than we earn and there needs to be a change in this trend before we talk anything about managing cash payments.
As others have said, the money is there. I'd be more concerned about the logistics of collecting and dispersing it, though. The fact of the matter is that most whites don't have ancestors who ever owned a slave. The majority of slaves were owned by a very, very few wealthy families, individuals, and institutions...far less than 10% of the whole Southern population. Also, what of teh whites whose families did not arrive in the US until well after slavery's end? What of those whites who arrived here fleeing persecution themselves after WWII (some Jews, Slavs, etc..). What of the few AAs whose BLACK or mixed ancestors owned slaves (and I mean for actual labor, not to buy back their own family)? Do they get reparations as well? What of a person whose ancestry is both AA and African--are they paid only half? Mixed raced individuals? How much white admixture do you have to have, or how white should you have to look, to disqualify you from reparations? Does a quadroon only understand a fourth of what it means to be a Black American? What of the mulattos in the suburbs, whose primary parent may not be Black and who are surrounded by whites---do they understand the Black experience? What of the so-called "sellouts" and "Uncle Toms", would they get a piece of the pie? And if the suggestion is to put it into a national trust that would work towards the benefit of AAs, who'se to say what the ultimate "benefit" is. What I consider a benefit may be widly different from another person. Who votes such a committe into office, and what of the people who votes against them?

The whole issue is so convulted as to be nonsensical.
A lot of these questions have been addressed before, but since we no longer have a reparations forum, I'll try to offer at least one person's perspective on them. bsm

quote:
Originally posted by UppityNegress:

The fact of the matter is that most whites don't have ancestors who ever owned a slave.


I see reprations as an obligation of the United States government. As such, this isn't about personal culpability and restitution on the part of the descendents of specific slave holders as opposed to the government paying one of its obligations. As I see it, African America is made up of families - the vast majority of which "invested" of their labor in the U.S. economy for hundreds of years. Same government. Same families. Reparations is an opportunity for those families to cash in their investment which is LONG overdue.

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The majority of slaves were owned by a very, very few wealthy families, individuals, and institutions...far less than 10% of the whole Southern population.


I'll have to try and find it, but I posted research here which suggested that slaveholders represented 40%+ in many slaveholding states - that the institution spread much more deeply into the middle class than has been popularized. Of course, the biggest plantations had the largest single number of slaves, but many families also had a number as well.

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Also, what of teh whites whose families did not arrive in the US until well after slavery's end?


I had nothing to do with sending Japanese Americans to internment camps during WW2, yet my tax dollars went to fund a reparations award for them in the 1980's. Again, this iis about obligations of the U.S. government and has little to do with any personal attachment to the issue.

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How much white admixture do you have to have, or how white should you have to look, to disqualify you from reparations? Does a quadroon only understand a fourth of what it means to be a Black American?


These are great questions that will deserve lots of thought. None of them are nearly as complex as how to conceive and manage a 19th century global slave trade. We'll just have to be thoughtful and diligent in arriving at logical solutions. That said - I believe that a lot of a reparations award would be in the form of funding to support institutions within African America - and therefore not involve specific cash payments to individuals.

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What of the so-called "sellouts" and "Uncle Toms", would they get a piece of the pie?


I'll give them my contact information - they can send it to me. I'll take goooooooood care of it! bsm

quote:
The whole issue is so convulted as to be nonsensical.


Actually - it's not. Slave families contributed significant value into the U.S. economy at its most important time - the founding of the country. That value represented the "venture capital" that got our economy and country off the ground. As I mentioned, the same country - obviously - exists now. Those same families also exist here. Our nation - now that it is one of the wealthiest on Earth - has an obligation to pay those families what they invested in America - with interest!
I really, really, really did not want this to become a repeat of all the other Reparations threads and just wanted to isolate the money issue.

That seems to be the first stumbling block of any Reparations argument: Agreeing on or deciding on exactly who would pay for Reparations and how they would pay it.

I'm not sure where the rest of you all are coming from with this "the money is already there" idea. Where is it exactly? In our own personal pocket books? Wouldn't it be better if it was in a centralized location and could go toward a massive change much further than our own personal buying power?

Can we please just tackle the finances in this particular thread? Perhaps MBM you could bump up some of the other threads that delve into how Reparations should be dispersed and whatever else.

Mille grazie. girl
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
I'm not sure where the rest of you all are coming from with this "the money is already there" idea. Where is it exactly? In our own personal pocket books?


For the record, when I said "the money is already there", I was speaking off-topic from the issue of reparations - I was addressing the issue of us becoming producers rather than consumers. I was referring to the possibility of our being more disciplined with the resources that we already have and choosing investment over mindless consumption. But it was technically

off
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:

quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
I'm not sure where the rest of you all are coming from with this "the money is already there" idea. Where is it exactly? In our own personal pocket books?


For the record, when I said "the money is already there", I was speaking off-topic from the issue of reparations - I was addressing the issue of us becoming producers rather than consumers. I was referring to the possibility of our being more disciplined with the resources that we already have and choosing investment over mindless consumption. But it was technically

off


What does it mean that we are even asking this question? We certainly didn't ask it in any meaningful way before we committted to the Iraq War - where we are spending billions monthly. One answer is, respectfully, "who gives a flip"!
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Originally posted by MBM:
What does it mean that we are even asking this question? We certainly didn't ask it in any meaningful way before we committted to the Iraq War - where we are spending billions monthly. One answer is, respectfully, "who gives a flip"!

Our dipshit president bulldozed his way right into the War before ANY questions could be asked, meaningful or otherwise. This is hardly the same situation (and I think it's a piss poor tactic to encourage this "spend first, figure out the money later" tactic because the cost just gets passed on to people who can hardly afford to be paying even more money to the government to begin with). And I think it's really strange to think the topic is so completely unworthy of discussion when you can open any thread on Reparations or any article on Reparations and see not only confusion over exactly who is going to pay for these Reparations but also no clear answers.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:

And I think it's really strange to think the topic is so completely unworthy of discussion when you can open any thread on Reparations or any article on Reparations and see not only confusion over exactly who is going to pay for these Reparations but also no clear answers.


Maybe you're reading the wrong articles. bsm

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