WHERE DO YOU STAND?

Can you please define what you mean by "free?" And are you using "African-Americans" interchangeably with "Blacks," or are you specifically speaking of American slave descendants?

quote:

Originally posted by Frenchy:

Can you please define what you mean by "free?" And are you using "African-Americans" interchangeably with "Blacks," or are you specifically speaking of American slave descendants?

You have the freedom to define those issues as you see fit in your response.

I agree.

I haven't done lengthy research but I wouldn't be surprised to find that people who have been oppressed and truly gained their freedom must not only remove the physical "shackles" of the oppressor but the mental and spiritual ones.

The former slaves of this country and we as their decedents have not fully done so.

Also, to be truly free these same oppressed people must have control over the economic, religious ideology, and politics of the nation. And the most important part, they must be able to maintain these things – this freedom – thru military strength if need be.

He who can not maintain his freedom is not truly free.

So as long as WE are a part of THERE nation, which we are currently and are constantly being reminded of, we will never be free.

But if using my idea about being truly free, what nations are? Are the African nations truly free?

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
RESOLVED: AFRICAN AMERICANS WILL NEVER BE FREE AS LONG AS WE ARE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

I'm following Frenchy's sentiment on this. Whether or not a person is free depends largely on how he defines freedom.

For me, freedom is largely a state of mind. My reasoning behind this is that the one God given power that no man, law, or government, can take from me is my power of choice. In every single situation I encounter, no matter how desperate, there is always a choice that I can make. Even choosing not to choose is a choice.

Because I fully understand this concept, I am free. But, a person who doesn't understand it finds themselves imprisoned in their own mind. They are just reacting to stimuli, rather than making concious choices for concious reasons. Also, because it's a prison of the mind, it follows them everywhere they go.

For these reasons, I disagree with the opening statement. My freedom is not positively, or adversely, affected by being in the United States.

Okay.

I. Option I

RESOLVED: AFRICAN AMERICANS WILL NEVER BE FREE AS LONG AS WE ARE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

Definitions:

Free - Ability to do whatever one pleases, whenever one pleases to do it.

1. The concept of freedom is an illusion and therefore unattainable.

There is nowhere on Earth you can live in complete freedom. Even the man living alone in the wilderness is subject to the laws of nature.

Case Closed.

II. Option B

RESOLVED: AFRICAN AMERICANS WILL NEVER BE FREE AS LONG AS WE ARE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

Definitions:

Free - Ability to act and think in a manner unaffected by an oppressive party

African-Americans - descendants of Africans brought to the United States as slaves

1. The resolution assumes freedom is permanent.

I don't think that is accurate. There are times of mental and physical freedom and times of oppression. One does not (usually) attain freedom and remain that way forever.

2. The resolution assume that currently there are no free African-Americans.

Certainly there are those individuals and groups who can be considered free with respect to personal grooming, political affiliation or lack thereof, language, etc.

3. The oppressors of African America are not necessarily confined to the United States.

There is nowhere that African-Americans can immigrate to that is free from the influence of white Europeans. So, in that respect, there is complete escape. However, I do think that moving to a country where there is less personal history of oppression does increase the chance that one's thinking will remain a bit more independent and less clouded. There is a degree of liberation in choosing to start a life in a particular place with a clean slate.

Iraqis are not in the United States. Are they free? Haiti is a sovereign independent black nation. But their politics have been influenced (usually for the worse) by us from the beginning. Same with Castro's Cuba... Zaire was an independent African nation under Patrice Lumumba... until he was assassinated with the help of the CIA.

I could go on... But these are points that I have never heard separatists deal with adequately.

Lastly, aren't black folk capable of being oppressive? In fact, many of the most vocal separatists are authoritarian as hell.

quote:

Originally posted by Frenchy:
Okay.

I. Option I

RESOLVED: AFRICAN AMERICANS WILL NEVER BE FREE AS LONG AS WE ARE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

Definitions:

Free - Ability to do whatever one pleases, whenever one pleases to do it.

1. The concept of freedom is an illusion and therefore unattainable.

There is nowhere on Earth you can live in complete freedom. Even the man living alone in the wilderness is subject to the laws of nature.

Case Closed.

II. Option B

RESOLVED: AFRICAN AMERICANS WILL NEVER BE FREE AS LONG AS WE ARE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

Definitions:

Free - Ability to act and think in a manner unaffected by an oppressive party

African-Americans - descendants of Africans brought to the United States as slaves

1. The resolution assumes freedom is permanent.

I don't think that is accurate. There are times of mental and physical freedom and times of oppression. One does not (usually) attain freedom and remain that way forever.

2. The resolution assume that currently there are no free African-Americans.

Certainly there are those individuals and groups who can be considered free with respect to personal grooming, political affiliation or lack thereof, language, etc.

3. The oppressors of African America are not necessarily confined to the United States.

There is nowhere that African-Americans can immigrate to that is free from the influence of white Europeans. So, in that respect, there is complete escape. However, I do think that moving to a country where there is less personal history of oppression does increase the chance that one's thinking will remain a bit more independent and less clouded. There is a degree of liberation in choosing to start a life in a particular place with a clean slate.

You are one smart chick... A little twisted - OK... A LOT TWISTED ... but smart

But wouldn't be nice to live in a world where everyone looked like you?

Where you were never in doubt that black is beautiful?

Or that black people are smart?

Where you're not measured against someone else?

I do understand how this would constitute a degree of "freedom" which we do not presently have.

BTW, I know that many of us are already at that point - knowing that black is beautiful, that we're just as smart, etc. - My point is that in our present situation, many of us have struggled to reach that realization and some of us never do.

It is a simplistic statement and almost certainly FALSE.

However leaving is no guarantee of "freedom."

Euro-influence is global due to economics and technology, that is why these two areas should be our focus.

umbra

Peace....

quote:

RESOLVED: AFRICAN AMERICANS WILL NEVER BE FREE AS LONG AS WE ARE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

I agree. freedom is the state of being unrestricted, capable of self determination. If we are ever to be free, we must begin by thinking from a mind which is not under the constant supervision, and restriction of the institution which enslaved us for 300 years.

Can the black person in America honestly say that they are thinking from a free mind? How was the modern African American mind formed? Is it not true that we are the product of a slave making process which ended less than 150 years ago? Can it seriously be argued that all of the negative psychological effects of slavery have been wiped clean from the
mind of the African American? I say no.

If we are still suffering from the ill effects of slavery then how will we ever recover completely unless we separate ourselves from the scene of the crime?

Being free may be painful, but if freedom is what we want then we must have it by leaving the dependant relationship we have with Amrica, and find our identity in a land we can claim as our own.


Kai

quote:

Originally posted by Kai:
If we are still suffering from the ill effects of slavery then how will we ever recover completely unless we separate ourselves from the scene of the crime?

Being free may be painful, but if freedom is what we want then we must have it by leaving the dependant relationship we have with Amrica, and find our identity in a land we can claim as our own.


Kai

Do you free your mind by going to another land or do you just carry your mental baggage and dysfunctions with you?

As for the "scene of the crime": does that not extend to African soil?

As for leaving behind our "dependent relationship" with America, several posts have already put forward cogent arguments why this isn't realistic (even if its desireable).

PS: Yes - I can honestly say I am thinking from a free mind - one that is also aware of global political and economic realities.

Peace...

quote:

Do you free your mind by going to another land or do you just carry your mental baggage and dysfunctions with you

I do not think that a change in locations alone will change our minds. I think that establishing ourselves in a separate territory would provide the environment necessary for such a change, however freedom will come to birth once we have redirected ourselves toward who and what we really are.

This nation, America cannot afford to see it's former slaves liberated in this manner.

quote:

As for the "scene of the crime": does that not extend to African soil?

Yes. However, while certain cheiftains in Africa were guilty of culpable conduct, they are no longer established as powers in the land. America is a corporate institution which has existed continuously since slavery. America is a responsible party. America is not only part of the crime scene, she is also one of the onloy surviving culprits.

quote:

As for leaving behind our "dependent relationship" with America, several posts have already put forward cogent arguments why this isn't realistic (even if its desireable).

I have not read these arguments. I fail to understand how human beings established every nation ever to rise on the face of this planet, yet these people, us, cannot build a nation. Leaving America is no more than a decision....Why should it be any harder than uniting and mobilizing?

quote:

PS: Yes - I can honestly say I am thinking from a free mind - one that is also aware of global political and economic realities.

i do not know you well enough to say whether you have a free mind or not. However, the vast majority of black people in this nation are not free.



Kai

quote:

quote:
PS: Yes - I can honestly say I am thinking from a free mind - one that is also aware of global political and economic realities.



i do not know you well enough to say whether you have a free mind or not. However, the vast majority of black people in this nation are not free.

If there are any free minds on this planet they are so few and far between their existence can be disregarded.

umbra

quote:

Originally posted by Kai:
I do not think that a change in locations alone will change our minds. I think that establishing ourselves in a separate territory would provide the environment necessary for such a change, however freedom will come to birth once we have redirected ourselves toward who and what we really are.

No, Kai. Freedom is yours, now. You can either accept it, or not.

quote:

However, the vast majority of black people in this nation are not free.

Upon what, do you base this supposition? Are you assuming that the vast majority of black people in this country are not free, based on your definition of freedom?

African-Americans will never be able to carry out the "popular political will" of the masses as long as they reside inside the scope of power and influence of a greater power.

LIKEWISE, stepping outside of this power will require that they take responsibility for all of the variables that operate upon them that they are not required to do so today:

Fund and operate National Defense
Provide for the general state of the environment - air, water
Provide for the healthcare of the masses
-state of technology in healthcare, payment policies
Crimal Justice system - balance the need to apply punishment to criminals who break society's laws with justice in proving one's guilt (the removal of the RACIAL based bias by BOTH WHITE AND BLACKS in this system may prove to be the biggest benefit of BEING ALL TO YOURSELF TO MAKE OR BREAK IT ALONE)

Freedom of speech - Allowing your harsh critics to speak their peace without suffering government sanction (I would love to see if this will survive)


Democracy

Ex-Agent Smith:

quote:

"As you well know, appearances can be deceiving, which brings me back to the reason why we're here. We're not here because we're free, we're here because we're not free. There's no escaping reason, no denying purpose - because as we both know, without purpose, we would not exist."
" It is purpose that created us,"
" Purpose that connects us,"
" Purpose that pulls us,"
" That guides us,"
" That drives us,"
" It is purpose that defines,"
" Purpose that binds us."

Beware of splinters in your mind.

Sally Kempton:

quote:

It is hard to fight an enemy who has outposts in your head.

umbra

quote:

Originally posted by Kai:
However, the vast majority of black people in this nation are not free.

Kai

I might agree with this. Let me throw out as a question to the participants in this discussion: What do you think are some significant indicators of our "lack of freedom"?

For example, I might say that we are consumed with European notions of beauty, and hence black women straighten their hair. Nose straightening/narrowing surgery is becoming more common for both sexes, etc.

Would everyone agree that this situation indicates a lack of freedom (on the mental plane)?

Black Viking wrote:

quote:

No, Kai. Freedom is yours, now. You can either accept it, or not.

I belong to the struggle for liberation of black people in America. My personal condition is irrelevant. If we are not free, then I am not free. I love my people like that.

Freedom is about options, and choices. If you are trapped in a steady state of misery due to inequality, and miseducation, then you cannot fit into the definition of being free. When you are free, you are no longer a dependant.

quote:

Upon what, do you base this supposition? Are you assuming that the vast majority of black people in this country are not free, based on your definition of freedom?

Let us consult Webster.

Main Entry: 1free
Pronunciation: 'frE
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): fre·er; fre·est
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English frEo; akin to Old High German frI free, Welsh rhydd, Sanskrit priya own, dear
1 a : having the legal and political rights of a citizen b : enjoying civil and political liberty c : enjoying political independence or freedom from outside domination d : enjoying personal freedom : not subject to the control or domination of another2 a : not determined by anything beyond its own nature or being : choosing or capable of choosing for itself b : determined by the choice of the actor or performer c : made, done, or given voluntarily or spontaneously
3 a : relieved from or lacking something unpleasant or burdensome b : not bound, confined, or detained by force
4 a : having no trade restrictions b : not subject to government regulation c of foreign exchange : not subject to restriction or official control
5 a : having no obligations (as to work) or commitments b : not taken up with commitments or obligations
6 : having a scope not restricted by qualification
7 a (1) : not obstructed or impeded : CLEAR (2) : not being used or occupied b : not hampered or restricted in its normal operation
8 a : not fastened b : not confined to a particular position or place; also : not having a specific opponent to cover in football c : capable of moving or turning in any direction d : performed without apparatus e : done with artificial aids (as pitons) used only for protection against falling and not for support
9 a : not parsimonious b : OUTSPOKEN c : availing oneself of something without stint d : FRANK, OPEN e : overly familiar or forward in action or attitude f : LICENTIOUS
10 : not costing or charging anything
11 a (1) : not united with, attached to, combined with, or mixed with something else : SEPARATE (2) : FREESTANDING b : chemically uncombined c : not permanently attached but able to move about d : capable of being used alone as a meaningful linguistic form -- compare 5BOUND 7
12 a : not literal or exact b : not restricted by or conforming to conventional forms
13 : FAVORABLE -- used of a wind blowing from a direction more than six points from dead ahead
14 : not allowing slavery
15 : open to all comers
- free·ness /-n&s/ noun
- for free : without charge
synonyms FREE, INDEPENDENT, SOVEREIGN, AUTONOMOUS mean not subject to the rule or control of another. FREE stresses the complete absence of external rule and the full right to make all of one's own decisions . INDEPENDENT implies a standing alone; applied to a state it implies lack of connection with any other having power to interfere with its citizens, laws, or policies . SOVEREIGN stresses the absence of a superior power and implies supremacy within a thing's own domain or sphere . AUTONOMOUS stresses independence in matters pertaining to self-government


The United States Declaration of Independence makes the case beautifully:


"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. "” That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, "” That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. "” Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government...."

Thomas Jefferson was a very powerful mind. His words are passionate, beautiful, and bold. These framers were brave men, and the colonies were just as brave for declaring independence from a greater power.

Freedom is more than how you think about yourself. The preamble of the U.S. Constitution speaks of "Blessings of Liberty". When you enjoy freedom you enjoy the blessings of freedom, If you have found no blessings with your supposed freedom, then as the Preamble states, these blessings were not secured when we were emancipated.



We were tricked into believing the promise of men like Union General William Tecumseh Sherman who promised black freed slaves 40 acres of land and a farm animal. This promise was rescinded, and we received nothing. When were the blessings of Liberty ever secured? How free can we be if we were never repaired, and restored, and provided with means for securing a future for ourselves and our families?



Kai

RESOLVED: AFRICAN AMERICANS WILL NEVER BE FREE AS LONG AS WE ARE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.---MBM

I will define African Americans as those Americans who are descendants of native-born Americans of unknown African ancestry.

Since we continue to labor of this identity issue, say that we 'labor' because we have always been an inclusive people embracing all who of common African ancestry.

That is beginning to 'turn on us'.

Some people of African ancestry, who are or are descendants of ancestors who are, immigrants from other (non-African) nation challenge us,or diminish us for declaring our ethnicity.

Some, in fact, diminish us because of our history.

As African Americans, we take our place in the world with all others of the African Disapora distinct in our ethnicity, AND ancestral nationality as Americans who are African American.

With all that said....

I will define free as being unlimited by law on the basis of 'race and//or color'.

My answer is 'Yes.'

That will happen the very day we are sucessful is achieving equal protection under the laws of the UNited States.

It is a finite time.

It is totally determined by US.

WE are still unwilling to demand that equality.

Eventually, we will.

I remain hopeful, and expectant.

PEACE

Jim Chester

Agreed.

There will be no economic, mental, or physical "freedom" for Africans in amerikkka as long as arabs and whites control Africa.

One more time: Will someone please explain to me the ways in which we are not free now... and precisely how moving somewhere else (WHERE specifically is ANOTHER problem altogether) is going to change that?....

I believe in another thread when I declared the need for us to claim our freedom, someone - who shall remain unnamed - had a fit... but is now eloquently quoting Thomas Jefferson to that effect...

In case you missed it before:

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Iraq is not in the United States. Are the Iraqis free? Haiti is a sovereign independent black nation. But their politics have been influenced (usually for the worse) by us from the beginning. Same with Castro's Cuba... Zaire was an independent African nation under Patrice Lumumba... until he was assassinated with the help of the CIA.

I could go on... But these are points that I have never heard separatists deal with adequately.

Lastly, aren't black folk capable of being oppressive? In fact, many of the most vocal separatists are authoritarian as hell.

Lest someone give Israel as an example of some folks who claimed their freedom by establishing their own land, Israel is HIGHLY dependent upon * US military aid * ($10 billion/year) . Without it, there's no way they could do what they're doing now.

For the record, I like the idea of separatism, however, until people start reckoning with these types of issues squarely, talk of separatism is just talk...

Frenchy poses an excellent question, what does it mean to be "free"? For a period in our history (African American descendents of slaves) to be "free" meant "to be emancipated" - to be autonomous and self-determining. The definition of "free" later came to speak more to equality and full recognition under the law. I'd be curious to read how MBM and others define freedom today. My guess is that the definitions presented will be as varied and unique as the people typing them out. As tempting as it may be, making statement like, "African Americans will never be free as long as we are here in America", oversimplifies the multiplicity of issues that affect African Americas at every level of the social-economic ladder. We live in varying realities. Freedom to Barack Obama and Beyonce' probably means something totally different from the definition implied by MBM's statement. While people like Tavis Smiley have made valiant attempts to define a "black" agenda, I think the issues that affect "blacks" will become more and more varied with the increases in economic opportunity and therefore less and less condensable to a 10 point covenant.

Shango67, do you really believe what you just wrote or are you simply a provocatuer?

quote:

Originally posted by Mututsi60s:
Shango67, do you really believe what you just wrote or are you simply a provocatuer?

Arabs and whites DO control Africa... what I don't get is how that relates to our freedom here

HonestBrother, just out of curiousity...how do Arabs and Whites control Africa. Intuitively, that sounds right but as an educated individual, wouldn't be prudent to substantiate such resolute statements?

I wonder why Africans in America think America will last for ever and white people can never be beat. People thought Rome couldnt fall, as well as many other civilizations. I think its a valid question to ask about our survival as a people and I dont necessarily believe our survival it tied to how Eureopeans treat us. I think the most fundamental aspect of Freedom or liberation, is the abilty of a set people do define their own reality.

quote:

Originally posted by Mututsi60s:
HonestBrother, just out of curiousity...how do Arabs and Whites control Africa. Intuitively, that sounds right but as an educated individual, wouldn't be prudent to substantiate such resolute statements?

It is an over statement. There are certainly black governments. But even in countries ostensibly run by blacks, one still has a lot of European ownership of property and control of resources. And there is much Arab dominance in the North and East.

quote:

Originally posted by ZAKAR:
I wonder why Africans in America think America will last for ever and white people can never be beat. People thought Rome couldnt fall, as well as many other civilizations. I think its a valid question to ask about our survival as a people and I dont necessarily believe our survival it tied to how Eureopeans treat us. I think the most fundamental aspect of Freedom or liberation, is the abilty of a set people do define their own reality.

I do not think America will last forever, but in order to talk concretely and realisticly about separatism NOW one must deal with current US global dominance.

That's being real.

you act like we can just up and all just leave right now, Im certainly not talking about that .What i am talking about is beginning the connection with other African people as well as brothers and sistas on the continent. Form bridges start organizations, international businesses. Everyone is not gonna leave america, probably most wont at least at the moment, but some have and more will, we can use this to build on expand out options and eventually with enough investment, exchanges and when enough brothers and sistas from the Diaspora return to Mother AFrica the more we can build with those still in the Diaspora, All Jews do not live in Israel many have never seen it but all support israel and see it as their homeland.

You live up to your name HonestBrother. Acknowledging that Shango67's statement was an overstatement yet sticking to your conviction about the over-dominate economic/politic force of Whites and Arabs in Africa was real. The one thing I would add, however, is that there are Whites and Arabs in Africa who are as African as African Americans are American. Imagine if things were reversed, if African Americans, while still a minority group, possessed the majority of the political and economic power. Would you still see the situation as so adverse? East Indians in Kenya are a very powerful economic group and most of them are third or fourth generation Kenyan. Who would advocate stripping them of power and citizenship simply because they are not the majority race? I'd like to think we wouldn't stand for that as enlightened individuals.

As for people who are always anticipating the fall of the US. I'd be careful. You, your families, your children, all of us ARE the US. The US is not just land and government, people make up a nation and whether you feel you've been excluded or not, when the ship goes down, you go down with it. Instead of stating what many see as being the inevitable, why don't you dooms-day crier's start thinking of ways to save the ship. I paraphrase Eldridge Cleaver when I challenge you to check yourself and determine whether you're part of the problem or part of the solution.

I for people who are always anticipating the fall of the US. I'd be careful. You, your families, your children, all of us ARE the US. The US is not just land and government, people make up a nation and whether you feel you've been excluded or not, when the ship goes down, you go down with it. Instead of stating what many see as being the inevitable, why don't you dooms-day crier's start thinking of ways to save the ship. I paraphrase Eldridge Cleaver when I challenge you to check yourself and determine whether you're part of the problem or part of the solution.

I dont know who you are referring to with this statement but I for one am a Nationalist, and if it goes down it goes down what do we have in this system anyway. what would we loose>? Just because an economy collapses doesnt mean everyone will die, just means the standard of living will go down drastically, if your are alrealy poor how much difference can it really make?these assimilationist kill me with this save america shyt. How can we save something we have no power over? we do not control the laws of?Truth be told America has been sold off by international capitalist long ago. The capitalist in America have more in common with Capitalist in China than they do with the middle and working class americans, so this whole notion of the Nationstate as it relates to the global economy has already been shattered. The only options I see is for those so called developing countries (Africa, South, CEntral AMerica) began to work with each other to figure out how to ensure the survival of their populations and not have their resources continue to be taken for the benifit of these International Capitalist

quote:

RESOLVED: AFRICAN AMERICANS WILL NEVER BE FREE AS LONG AS WE ARE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

For me, the only meaningful way to define "free" in this context is "as able as the average white person to have access to the benefits of being an American."

With that in mind, I disagree with the statement. And I don't understand how anyone who agrees with the statement would stay here. "Will never" means, in no uncertain terms, that there's no point in being here. If we "will never" be "free" here, but we can be "free" somewhere in the world, then what are we doing here? Especially if you have children. It would be irresponsible to raise children in a land where you believe they inherently cannot reach their potential, unless there's no place else that they could do better.

sounds like the crackers who say"if you dont like it here go back to africa" fuck that I will talk shyt about this country and will take advantage of this bullshyt citizenship and use it to my advantage, I will leave but it will be the time of my chosing. How many of you actually think the European elites who run america will redistribute wealth or make life better for Africans? please show me and example when this has happend? what concrete gain has Africans in America really gained since the 13 14 and 15 amendments were inacted?

quote:

what do we have in this system anyway

For whom do you speak, ZAKAR? You sound like one of those talking media heads who simply regurgitates speaking points. Everything you write is cliché and anecdotal. If you truly consider yourself to be an intellectual, step back from your keyboard every now and then and think about what it is that you're typing and whether it's something you simple "feel" to be true or can substantiate and articulate coherent manner.

For example, you asked:

"How can we save something we have no power over?"

Can you articulate what it means to have power in America and then, if based on your definition, we can conclude that African Americans have no "power", can you support your answer with concrete evidence. The sort of concrete evidence you asked us to produce in proving that African Americans have made no gains since the enactment of the 13, 14, and 15th amendments?

You sound like a passionate person. Add wisdom to your passion and you might begin to bring about some of the change you so long for.

I never said i was an intellectual, but who are you to question my question on our situation here in america. why dont you try and answer the questions I asked since you disagree. I already stated how I feel. I kills me how these so called intellects answer question with questions. whats up with that?

You sound like a passionate person. Add wisdom to your passion and you might begin to bring about some of the change you so long for.

sound like one of those talking media heads who simply regurgitates speaking points. Everything you write is cliché and anecdotal. If you truly consider yourself to be an intellectual, step back from your keyboard every now and then and think about what it is that you're typing and whether it's something you simple "feel" to be true or can substantiate and articulate coherent manner.


and who in the hell gave you the authority to decide someone's intelliegence, dont get your opinion confused with anything factual. Learn how to accept those opinions different from yours and move on, trying to down someone because you think you know more than them is simple minded.

ZAKAR, you act like all you're doing is asking questions, but when you ask questions like, "How many of you actually think the European elites who run america will redistribute wealth or make life better for Africans?", you infuse an unsubstantiated opinion (European elites run America) with the question. I'm simply curious as to how you know, outside of your feelings, know that European elites run America? Often the opinions in your questions and comments come off as fact, when, really, as you noted, they're just opinions. Let's make that clear.

And you're right, ZAKAR, I shouldn't have assumed anything you. That was presumptuous of me. I apologize. Honestly speaking, I'm trying to learn from you. I feel the same way you feel about a lot of things, but I was hoping that you had taken the next step and turned feelings into action via becoming throughly inform on subjects before you so passionately opined on them.

You make some very audicious and offensive comments, don't be surprised when people question you on them. It's the price you pay when you post a comment. You make yourself vulnerable.

I'm not trying to battle or agitate you. As for your question, I am as incapable of answering your question as you are in articulating the legitimate stimuli for the question.

see the problem is you turn the dime on me and put me in a situation where I have to answer all the questions you ask, but you answer nothing, just sit back read what i write then pick at my statements. What do you feel, how do you believe we ensure the survivial of African people. If you have read many of my post I have articulated how I feel about what needs to be done for African people to ensure their survival.
You make some very audicious and offensive comments, don't be surprised when people question you on them. It's the price you pay when you post a comment. You make yourself vulnerable.
How so? if me stating what I believe makes be vulnerable so be it. But i speak what i feel while others sit back and pick at others without giving any point of view.what is your point of view on this matter>

EUROPEAN ELITE (BUSH CHANEY, BECTEL, HALIBURTON ETC)

when I ask what have we gained since the 13th 14th and 15th amendment I was asking a serious question. What have we as a community gained since the Intergration era (CivilRights) i suggest not much at all and all the data shows that we have virtually the same percentage of American wealth as we did at the same time these amendments were in acted. What did the voting rights act give us that wasnt already given to us in the 13th 14th and 15th amendments. Where is the progress? When I aske what power do we have it was a direct question. What power do we have , politically,economically or socially that will allow us as a people to change the American system to be more fair and equal in its treatment of its citizens particualarly Africans. I see non. I do not believe The politically process hasnt helped us. Economically we are stagnant to say the least. As far as socially we have influence with style and culture Ie art , music, sports etc, but we do not control the venues in which these realities are portrayed. So im not picking out of the sky when i ask these fundamental questions, But I think it is a bit disingenious to nit pick at people's point of view with out stating your own. I believe no african anywhere will have respect as long as the Continent of Africa is in the position its in. WE may think we are different from the rest of our brothers and sistas on the continent and throughout the diaspora but in a system of White supremacy which is global see's us all the same. To Europeans a nigger in Zimbabwe is the same as a nigger in Chicago.

quote:

Originally posted by ZAKAR:
sounds like the crackers who say"if you dont like it here go back to africa" fuck that I will talk shyt about this country and will take advantage of this bullshyt citizenship and use it to my advantage, I will leave but it will be the time of my chosing. How many of you actually think the European elites who run america will redistribute wealth or make life better for Africans? please show me and example when this has happend? what concrete gain has Africans in America really gained since the 13 14 and 15 amendments were inacted?

That's not what I'm saying, "Love it or leave it." More like "Fight for yours here, or fight for yours elsewhwere. Because check it: at the point where you conclude that we will NEVER be what we could be here, what exactly is the point, then? What are we fighting for, if we NEVER will win? Is being "less than free" in America somehow better than being totally free somewhere else? Maybe that's the argument? Because otherwise, you're right about "talking shyt about this country"; it's exactly what you're doing, if you don't do anything else.

As far as the concrete gains since Reconstruction, I suggest you read up on what life was like for us back at that time.