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We allowed a "2 year" Presidency for the first African American President who won in a massive landslide but lost his massive support base and all his "political employees" in a virtual landslide...I would have never believed it. Don't blame the President, blame yourselves if you did not vote and from today going forward in regards to the President and how he presides for the next 2 years, you have nothing to say of value to and all you're bitchin' and complanin' are now being heard with total deaf ears......crabs in a barrell...here we are once again but this time it's at the pinnicle of American power.
  Right on, my brotha!  that's ALL I'm sayin.  And you said it better than I ever could. My thing is:    If you gonna BLAME sumbody....don't blame my President if you didn't get your azz off the couch and go vote. Blame yourself!   That is what I have been screaming until my voice went  hoarse on and after election day.  Blackfolks just don't get it.  They had a REAL chance and blew it...being stupid and arrogant and unmotivated.  Welll....you get what you get now.  And it's nobody's fault.....but who's?  When we will LEAVE this kneegrow mentality?When!!!? But! I'm just sayin
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Yes we are DIFFERENT. We rose to the height of a RICH and POWERFUL society on the BACKS of slavery and the damn near elimination of the entire Native American nation[more than 50,000 tribes]. That within itself makes us very DIFFERENT from the rest of prior empires. If this is a LIE or untruth....name ONE civilization that ROSE to power as a result of those two factors. Just one! And let's not forget....yall, we are a very YOUNG country compared to ancients we have before us. China is one....Europe is another[and I won't even bring up Africa]. So I disagree with the analogy of depicting us as a fallen nation.....we. have. just. begun. The party aint over yet. Just cuz you say it's so....doesn't mean it is....but! I'm just sayin Oh BTW: one dilapidated house in detroit.....and one scenic view of Shangai[sp] is not a FAIR comparison of the vast beauty in America. I don't understand the point of showing ONE old broken house in America and a awesome picture of an entire city. Plus I don't think it's right to compare one of the richest ports in the world to ONE house in one of the poorest cities in the nation. That's like comparing Michael Jordan to Leroy the unemployed baller who lives down the street from Rufus, the ex-con. But! If you look closely, most if not all of China have serious people issues. Money can't buy everything....ask those Chinese folks who are coming here in droves seeking natural citizenship. They're running from sumthing! And it ain't all that money China has....now is it?

Koko…..One has to work with the images that are available on the Net. 50 years ago a picture taken from that same spot in Shanghai would have shown a barren or poor landscape. Fifty years ago that image from the Brush Park neighborhood in Detroit would show a high density track with multiple homes in the area. Being that I am from Detroit I realize the symbolism that this one picture represents, because it’s not an isolated occurrence. About 20% of Detroit proper looks like this. Its not JUST one house….but many people don’t know this. I could show you pictures of Gary Indiana, Cleveland, Flint Michigan, Youngstown Ohio and a lot of other cities that once represented the pinnacle of America’s industrial might. It was cities like these that took in former uneducated sharecroppers from the South, like my parents, and offered them middle income jobs and great benefit. It was cities like these that lifted the standard of living of America and especially black America. China, India, Mexico and other nations are becoming the PRODUCERS while Americans become simply CONSUMERS (through debt). Game over! Does China have problems? Yes. Yet, they are optimistic because the TREND for their nation is UP, while the opposite is true in America, except for those people naïve enough that a political party or an individual is going to change America’s reality.


People go to the polls and turn out when GIVEN A COMPELLING REASON TO DO SO. Black people turned out in record numbers to vote for Obama because he could TALK THE TALK and they wanted to see a black president. Many black people will not admit it now…..but they are disillusioned with Obama and the Democrats. Obama and Democrats are not WALKING THE WALK in sync with the TALK (or their unrealistic HOPE). The 2008 election was simply the Republican Party being scolded...it was not a transformation of ideology. One has to realize that the only way, in a binary two party construct like ours, to hold a party accountable and to demonstrate displeasure is TO NOT SUPPORT THEM. The problem with black people is that we are afraid to not support the Democratic Party…..so we can never hold them accountable….which gives them absolutely NO reason to triage public policy based upon areas of greatest need and pain (the black community). We, again, keep trying the same thing and expecting different results, then whining because we get the same result. That’s Einstein’s theory of insanity. Negroes are we CRAZY?  We must be because we keep repeating this same tired pattern and rationalizing it based upon the choice representing the lesser of two evils. In other words, we HAVE to vote for this evil in order to keep the WORSE evil at bay. That strategy will NEVER produce a RIGHTEOUS outcome for African Americans. We vote for the lesser of two unrighteous parties and then become disillusioned when the results of our choices does not manifest into righteous policy for us....lol (I have to laught to keep from crying).  Again, Negroes are WE CrAzY? Are we InSaNe?  Both parties can keep moving further away from our needs and agenda (inequality), with one managing to stay a little closer than the other because they know that is ALL that they have to do to keep our support because they understand that a certain percentage of people feel compelled by history and civic duty to vote (and not waste a vote on a third party) and hence they (black folks) become CAPTIVES to the lesser of two evils. Well, sometimes you have to take a step back to take a leap forward. Sometimes the cure is painful and hence avoiding the short term pain will mean that one will never get the long term gain or cure. Until black people show the fortitude to walk away from this paradigm…..we will continue to be marginalized.

Last edited by Noah The African
  First...my brotha.  I would appreciate it HIGHLY if you spell my name correctly!  I spell your name correctly if even I don't agree with some of what you have to say.  It's called respect.  Respect me enough to know HOW to spell my name. 


Secondly, I didn't say I disagree with you....I said your comparison with ONE house in Detriot doesn't quite equate with one of the richest ports in the world.  It just DON'T. [You didn't show city to city comparison...you showed house to city comparison.  Not gonna work.]    If you gonna make a comparison like that to bring home your point.....be FAIR.  Is all I'm sayin'. In addition,  I am the one of the first to say the revolution is here.....but!  I disagree with you on a few things above and I'm not gonna revisit it... cuz I've repeated it more than once already.  Howeverm, I do agree that blackfolks become the victim of two evils.....yeah I got that too.  But!  It will be, in my opinion, a long time coming before China come to the table and let their people free.  And if you don't have true freedom....no amount of money will ever make up for that.  Nope!  Nada.  So we will see...my brotha.  Detroit and other states are fallen....cuz of outsourced jobs.  And the day that massa and his boys realize that cuz he act like he doesn't understand....and the day that blackfolks realize that they have the ABILITY to do [always had] something on their own...and not be CHAINED by what massa oversees in the job market...will the true day of freedom for many blackfolks across this country.  They need to look inside and see the "gold.
  Massa did....and it made him what?  RICH!  But!  I'm just sayin
Last edited by Kocolicious

My mistake Kocolicioius....for getting your name off.


Again, those pictures are symbols of GROWTH juxtaposed with DECLINE. I think anyone who understands what’s happening in China with its cities and who understand what it happening in America's Industrial corridor can glean what the imagery represents (plus its validity as a microcosm). I will admit that the images, to the uniformed, are not a fair comparison. However, I assumed a higher level of understanding here….when maybe I should not have.


It’s not germane whether the people in China are happy or free. The issue is the ramification of their economy upon our economy. Furthermore, as I stated before, Detroit would not have half the problem it has if not for the propensity of the American public/consumer TO NOT PURCHASE THE GOODS PRODUCED BY AMERICAN COMPANIES!!!!. Thats essentially American WORKERS offshoring companies. Detroit Auto makers have been losing market share for the last 30 years....to foreign owned companies. Should Americans be punished for buying foreign because it often HURTS America? You keep talking about companies off shoring jobs but ignoring Americans off shoring their purchases (buying goods of foreign owned companies). It’s a 50/50 probability that someone in your home, if not you, is driving a car from a foreign company.  Yet, you will not see that CHOICE as part of the problem because of the VALUE decision involved. However, American companies cannot make the same VALUE decision as American consumers make every day…..which is to choose foreign? That is hypocrisy.

Last edited by Noah The African
The main thing politically that black people need to do is become a LOT more active in LOCAL politics.  I realized that back in 2004, when I watched the rest of the US actually re-elect Bush.  Dumb Idahoans can influence who my country's president, or ruling party is, but they can't influence who my city councilmen are.  That was a start.  

Another thing black people need to do is to recognize that this country is in decline and will continue to fall.  Much of what Noah is saying is correct.  There's too much unsustainability in the system.  The main thing that could have saved us -- a solid, hard move toward a modification of our economic system -- might have reversed the decline.  But the American people do not, by and large, have the political will to see that happen , or the intelligence.  And the Democratic party -- the only major group who could have made it happen -- are too cowardly to embrace it.  And that includes Barack "Public Option Off The Table" Obama.  

This election was inevitable, and therefore it by itself is no need to panic, or to give up.  But we should realize that once the Dems passed that bulshit healthcare plan, that any talk of actually making a difference big enough to save this country was pretty much just talk.  Had Obama and the Dems done some of the things they should have done -- ESPECIALLY, as SUNNUBIAN said, being less afraid to use their mandate, and being able to communicate why it's the right decision --  then they would have had an absolute lock on 2012.  As it is, whether they win in 2012 or not, it's pretty much too late to dig this nation, and black Americans as well, out of the mess it's in.  

What should African-America do now?  Make sure their kids speak Chinese, get serious about local politics, and save their money.  And vote for the most radical left wing candidates in 2012 they can find.  Then let them and the Tea Party types in Congress duke it out, and entertain us, since entertainment is all the federal government will be good for by then.
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However, I assumed a higher level of understanding here….when maybe I should not have.
 Well...I don't know about a HIGHER level of understanding....but!  If you're gonna make a substantial statement as you've presented here, each must be equally based. Otherwise, it's like comparing a truck to a car; or in this case a train to a car. Higher level or not...it  just don't make HUMAN sense.  I don't know about any one else here on this thread, but speaking for myself, an agrument/debate must be based on logic:  micro vs mirco...marco vs marco in order for ME to see the difference and to understand what is missing or not missing between the two.   Noah, not everybody is as HIGHLY advanced in thinking as you....there are those of us who may have a tad different perspective in how visual imagery is viewed.  Just a mental note for you to ponder on the next time around that is if you want to include the rest of us in your deep analysis and/or omnibus observation.         

 It’s not germane whether the people in China are happy or free.

Based on your agrument......right?  Okay.  For the sake of this discussion, I will take PEOPLE outta the equation.  

 The issue is the ramification of their economy upon our economy. Furthermore, as I stated before, Detroit would not have half the problem it has if not for the propensity of the American public/consumer TO NOT PURCHASE THE GOODS PRODUCED BY AMERICAN COMPANIES!!!!. Thats essentially American WORKERS offshoring companies. Detroit Auto makers have been losing market share for the last 30 years....to foreign owned companies. Should Americans be punished for buying foreign because it often HURTS America?

 I never said that or alluded to that.  But to simply answer your question:  No!

 You keep talking about companies off shoring jobs but ignoring Americans off shoring their purchases (buying goods of foreign owned companies). It’s a 50/50 probability that someone in your home, if not you, is driving a car from a foreign company.  Yet, you will not see that CHOICE as part of the problem because of the VALUE decision involved. However, American companies cannot make the same VALUE decision as American consumers make every day…..which is to choose foreign? That is hypocrisy.

Ahhhh my brotha.  Don't get your boxers in a bunch.  I agree.  But we are talking apples and oranges.  I have ignore nothing. Nope!  Not a thing.  But!   I do agree with you that it is American automobile execs sending our jobs overseas without considering what THIS decision would do.... not only to the economy but the people who once held those jobs.  But!  That's the nature of this beast.  Massa cares about massa's pockets.[That's why he's been the master of his game for hundreds of years]   Plus...he never cared about the domino effect about his decision to send jobs offshore when he signed the trade papers with China, India, Pakistan and Mexico[just to name a few].  His goal has been and will always be the almighty dollar-regardless of what this unfair partnership might do to his fellow Americans.  So to answer your question!  Yes it is hyprocrisy. 

I totally agree with your assessment and is why I always look at the bottom/or label of every product I buy to see where it comes from.  The only problem I have with this is when I consciously choose an American-made product, often the product is at least 3 to 4 times more than the offshore products.  Doesn't this obvious "ignoring" of high prices by some American merchants hyprocrisy as well?  It works both ways.    You said sumthing about two evils.  Well....there's another example.  Foreign merchants care less about American consumers[ahhh yea]  as well as many American merchants care less about American consumers.  So, my brotha, can this business- as- usual-mentality[especially how the economy is currently] from American merchants[who charge over the top ridiculous prices to the American consumer] be deemed as hyprocisy too?  Damn!  I said I wasn't gonna include people.     My bad.  But!  I'm just sayin  
Last edited by Kocolicious
The problem is that we cannot be a high wage (and taxed and regulated )nation and not produce high priced goods because the cost of production is passed on to the consumer. Low wage (taxed and regulated) nations can produce lower priced goods because there is less cost that needs to be passed to the consumer to make a profit. Hence, Americans are going to have to accept much lower wages if they want both low prices and jobs to remain in America (if we want high wages and jobs our standard of living will be decreased due to inflation caused by wages. Prices will be so high that we will not be able to afford to buy as much)....or they are going to have to accept jobs continuing to leave America in order that they continue to benefit from low cost goods made in places with low cost labor. America cannot have both. Until there is global wage equilibrium among capitalistic economies, opportunities will contine to be drained from America until that equilibrium is realized. Furthermore, an oft overlooked component is automation. Automation has eliminted just as many jobs, if not more, than offshoring. The more advanced we become, the more machines and artificial intelligence can perform many jobs that required many humans. It used to require many laborers to work a 100 acre farm, now it requires a fraction of the labor as machines do most of the work. The same is happening as a result of technology, for example, when you call many places the phone answering (voice) is automated and computerized, robots paint and weild on assembly lines, ect.....the logical end of artifical intelligence is the elimination of much of the workforce and machines will be used to replicate other machines and task.



The bottom line is that Americans are going to have to learn to accept a much lower standard of living. There is no political solution to this. Its the nature of capitalism....to seek the path of least resistance to profit. There is much more  friction/resistance to profit in America relative to Asia and other places ... hence until the friction increases abroad and or the friction decreases (lower wages, lower taxes, lower regulation) domestically equalizing things... jobs will continue to flow from America. Again, either way, a lower standard of living is unavoidable. Thats just how things works. Corporations run things. In the long run.....they will always seek the path of least resistance without regard to loyalities.
Last edited by Noah The African
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Are you channeling me? lol

Ya know, im one of those "our people bled fought died for the right to vote so it would be disrespectful not to" folks, but i'm really just fed up with the insanity of national politics.  I was really into it, but i see now, that i could be doing something useful with my energies.
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The political and economic system that dominates to globe isn't designed in anyway to serve people or community. There are methods models that have proved successful, but for many it requires and complete "rethinking" of how they view a functioning society.
MC!  Where u been?  Glad to see your fonts   I believe what u say about the economic and political system that dominates the globe.  IMF/Worldbank intervention in AFrican Countries is a prime example.  They can become heavily indebted but cannot get modern farm equipment or processing plant equipment to be able to manage the raw materials from their own countries? and thus can't benefit their own economies.   


But how to "rethink" a functioning society?  And especially rethinking a minority within that society that is big enough to be a NATION at 40 million strong.
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MC! Where u been? Glad to see your fonts I believe what u say about the economic and political system that dominates the globe. IMF/Worldbank intervention in AFrican Countries is a prime example. They can become heavily indebted but cannot get modern farm equipment or processing plant equipment to be able to manage the raw materials from their own countries? and thus can't benefit their own economies. But how to "rethink" a functioning society? And especially rethinking a minority within that society that is big enough to be a NATION at 40 million strong.
NSpirit-Thank you for the shoutout, I've been doing much more reading than writing lately.


IMHO its connected to your comment about the IMF/Worldbank.  Its true about the preditory nature of the loan's, but from a capitalistic perspective it makes since. Noah's is correct about capitalism seeking paths of least resistance-but there is NOTHING that demands that be the model under which a nation of population conducts its economic affairs. 

Rethinking a functioning society involves looking beyond the "profitability" of a thing, idea or action.  This is by FAR outside of the capitalist economic model.   It cannot be done within it, which is why in Europe there are "social-democratic" policies that extend in to the way you are permitted to do business in those countries.  The African economies have no such idea's within their structure, nor do we in America-for the most part. 

Looking at the relationship between the social economic structure and the end goal, in this case self determination economically, and educationally is an overlooked starting point. If we start by assuming as a given that we must "learn to play the game" the way it is today. Its nothing more than a lateral move.   This has happened in Africa where we don't see the same path of progress as say....Brazil.  Trade agreements are not naturally occurring things, neither is taxation.  No instuation can run on zero funding, so there's no way around taxation of one form or another. The question is what does society see as acceptable and why? Who determines a 5 day, 40 hour work week? Why not 60 hours a week and 12 hours a day?  Why not 30 hours a week?Increases in wages and salary DO NOT equate to higher prices. Those are economic versions of the boogieman.  Automation (computers) have cause many economic changes, but goods do NOT produce or design themselves. 


The idea of "worker owned co-ops" are not new, but they're downplayed for the same reason why a single payer health care is downplayed.  When given the option there's no reason why anyone would remain with the old model.  Solution? Keep people from rethinking the current model.
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The main thing politically that black people need to do is become a LOT more active in LOCAL politics. I realized that back in 2004, when I watched the rest of the US actually re-elect Bush. Dumb Idahoans can influence who my country's president, or ruling party is, but they can't influence who my city councilmen are. That was a start.

I think your point about local politics is made even more poignant considering the fact that we are such a small percentage of the population that even if EVERY eligible Black voter in the country went to the polls, we still cannot control national politics.  We can certainly help/influence/assist elections ... and our vote is vitally important to the Democratic Party.

But ... even with 95% of the (approx) 65% of eligible Black voters who voted in 2008 ... "we" did not elect the President on our own.  We were a part of a much bigger whole ... and a lot of a whole lot of 'everybody else' is what made his presidency possible.

However ... we definitely have the numbers to control our local environments and communities.  And if more of us were more politically active in our local politics, we could have much more control over what happens in our communities and daily lives.

Quick story:  I live in what I suppose is considered a small town/city (pop. about 65,000+) which probably makes it easier to be personally involved with local politics and politicians. But ... back in Feb. when we had our state primaries ... a young, Black attorney/judge/activist/entrepreneur decided to challenge our long (looonnnggg)-time older, female, Hispanic state representative for her job!  To her credit, she had been a good Rep., very active in our district, and had worked personally with my sister and our next door neighbor on issues such as the protest against a landfill in a primarily African American neighborhood when it was determined that a primarily White neighborhood was a better location .... and a school board decision to move a science & engineering lab out of the new primarily Black high school it was in to a primarily White HS that already had one, but they wanted to use the money to 'upgrade' to a newer one, instead!!

Anyway, I walk out my door one day and there is the candidate, himself, parked in front of my neighbor's house .. doing a door-to-door meet-and-greet and passing out yard signs!!  Of course, I walked up and introduced myself and asked for one of his signs!  We ended up standing in the middle of the street for about 20 minutes ... discussing everything from earthquakes to football to the difference between the West and the deep South to what made him run for office and what he planned to do if elected!

Well .. he narrowly won the primary ... and this past Tuesday. beat his Republican rival with 85% of the district voters.

But, the day before the election, there was a knock at my door ... and there he was!!  He had remembered our conversation ... was once again canvassing the neighborhood for votes (both for himself and the Dem Party as a whole!!) .. and said he was just stopping by to say hi!    I brought him in and introduced him to family members that were here at the time ... he gave his election pitch .. and we wished him good luck (although he apparently didn't need it!)

The Texas state legislature picked up 20 additional Republican seats in this last election ...so, his effectiveness is probably going to be quite limited as our Representative.  But, part of his platform was based on helping small business owners (women & minorities) ... which I am ... and I have every intention of capitalizing on whatever resources he will be able to help me secure.  His local office will be within walking distance from my house .. and he will be seeing me as an active constituent who helped put him in the position he is in today!!

Local politics affect our schools, taxes, environment, business climate (we're losing major chain stores and my city council needs to tell me why! ).  And even in big cities your local representatives are usually available to you (with satellite offices nearby) and you can see and talk and complain to them in person or in writing!!!  And most will welcome the activism and respond to your inquiries.  That's what they're there for.  And we have a duty to make them accountable.  We just have to start effectively using it.
How is it that the Native Americans have sovereignty while we don't have jack schlitt except the occasional crumbs of consideration from white liberals---unidentified

Most people don't understand 'sovereignty' as a socio-political force.

American Natives are members of nations.

Those nations are sovereign by their own declaration.

In their sovereignty, those Indian Nations negotiated treaties individually with each other, and the United States.

When we, as a people, get the 'balls' to declare our own sovereignty, we will have the same status.

PEACE

Jim Chester
Since we are not Native Americans, I see no reason why African Americans should feel the need to declare our own sovereignty within America, but rather demand what the Constitution and its Amendments have guaranteed to all Americans.  As for the question, 'What should we do now,?' --- remember that African Americans have been through far worse in America and remember that history can and will repeat itself if we let it.  There is so much that African America could do now and could have done in the past, but, we know that is not going to happen because everything that African Americans should do in America to make our communities and our people healthy, successful and safe, would require unity, which is something the African American communities/people refuse to seriously do.
Since we are not Native Americans, I see no reason why African Americans should feel the need to declare our own sovereignty within America, but rather demand what the Constitution and its Amendments have guaranteed to all Americans.---sunnubian

To my complete surprise, I recently discovered that the U.S. Constitution recognizes the personal authority in the 10th Amendment.

REALLY!!!

So...You are 'on the money'.

The U.S. Constitution, in the 10th Amendment, and along with 'States' Rights' reserves unto the people those things not mentioned specifically in the main body of the document.

IT IS A SOVEREIGN RIGHT, JUST AS IS THE CASE WITH THE INDIVIDUAL STATES.

IT IS, THEREFORE, OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO DETERMINE AND SPECIFY OUR OWN IDENTITY.

  As for the question, 'What should we do now,?' --- remember that African Americans have been through far worse in America and remember that history can and will repeat itself if we let it.  There is so much that African America could do now and could have done in the past, but, we know that is not going to happen because everything that African Americans should do in America to make our communities and our people healthy, successful and safe, would require unity, which is something the African American communities/people refuse to seriously do. SUNNUBIAN

Let's give ourselves another chance.

The tough part is that we have to first come the needed conclusion on our own.

Our unity is in the commonality of our action...our decisions.

PEACE

Jim Chester
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The tough part is that we have to first come the needed conclusion on our own.
  Good luck with that with some of our blackfolks.  it's been a long journey.  And I have seen the breaks given over and over....and still...they.  just. don't get it.  And talk?  I'm done talking with 'em.  My head hurts.  So for me, all we can do is pray...and hopefully a miracle will unfold.  Hopefully. 
The tough part is that we have to first come the needed conclusion on our own.
  Good luck with that with some of our blackfolks.  it's been a long journey.  And I have seen the breaks given over and over....and still...they.  just. don't get it.  And talk?  I'm done talking with 'em.  My head hurts.  So for me, all we can do is pray...and hopefully a miracle will unfold.  Hopefully.  ---Kocolicious

I hear you!!!!

Unlearning a lifetime of 'How To Survive In A Hostile Land'  is very hard to do.

It is to unlearn a belief.  Like religion.

Very hard to.

We have been taught to 'believe' rather being taught to learn.

Each one teach one...when and if they realize they don't know.

Sojourner Truth said it first.

PEACE

Jim Chester
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Unlearning a lifetime of 'How To Survive In A Hostile Land' is very hard to do. It is to unlearn a belief. Like religion. Very hard to. We have been taught to 'believe' rather being taught to learn. Each one teach one...when and if they realize they don't know. Sojourner Truth said it first.
  You said a mouth full there....my brotha.  Especially when you say "we have been taught to "believe" rather than taught to LEARN!  How deep is that?  And how very very sadly...true.

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