This is one of David Horowitz's points against reparations. What do you think of it?

What About The Debt Blacks Owe To America?

Slavery existed for thousands of years before the Atlantic slave trade was born, and in all societies. But in the thousand years of its existence, there never was an anti-slavery movement until white Christians - Englishmen and Americans -- created one. If not for the anti-slavery attitudes and military power of white Englishmen and Americans, the slave trade would not have been brought to an end. If not for the sacrifices of white soldiers and a white American president who gave his life to sign the Emancipation Proclamation, blacks in America would still be slaves. If not for the dedication of Americans of all ethnicities and colors to a society based on the principle that all men are created equal, blacks in America would not enjoy the highest standard of living of blacks anywhere in the world, and indeed one of the highest standards of living of any people in the world. They would not enjoy the greatest freedoms and the most thoroughly protected individual rights anywhere. Where is the gratitude of black America and its leaders for those gifts?

© MBM

Original Post
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
This is one of David Horowitz's points against reparations. What do you think of it?

What About The Debt Blacks Owe To America?

.............................................
If not for the sacrifices of white soldiers and a white American president who gave his life to sign the Emancipation Proclamation, blacks in America would still be slaves.


(1) Is this taking into account another 100 years of Jim Crow?

(2) It's controversial exactly what Lincoln and the Union troops were sacrificing for - i.e., was it to end slavery or was it to preserve the Union? And there were also non-altruistic reasons for white northerners to oppose slavery. For example, many white northern industrialists feared that if the south industrialized that it would have a tremendous competitive advantage due to access to a huge pool of free slave labor.

(3) But it is clear what the motivations of Abolitionists like Frederick Douglass were or black Union troops like the Massachusetts 54th.

http://www.coax.net/people/lwf/usct.htm


(4) Where is white America's gratitude to us for helping it to live up to its own ideals as expressed in the founding documents????? Every liberation movement in America has followed our example...From Women's suffrage to Gay Rights.
Last edited {1}
About 200,000 black troops served in the Union forces during the Civil War. Encouraged by such abolitionists as Frederick Douglass to enlist, blacks composed about 12 percent of all Union soldiers. More than 38,000 died of wounds, disease, or sometimes execution when they were captured by Confederates. Twenty-three won the Medal of Honor for heroism. Although the men were forced to serve in segregated units, discriminated against in pay, assignments, and rank, the black troops were an important factor in the Union victory.

http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/gahff/html/...200_blackuniontr.htm


I'll add that although I am not for reparations, I believe * David Horowitz is full of shit *
quote:
there never was an anti-slavery movement until white Christians - Englishmen and Americans -- created one.


Yeahhhhhh they just chose to participate in the crimes against humanity first.

Makes me wanna vomit. Roll Eyes
quote:
About 200,000 black troops served in the Union forces during the Civil War. Encouraged by such abolitionists as Frederick Douglass to enlist, blacks composed about 12 percent of all Union soldiers. More than 38,000 died of wounds, disease, or sometimes execution when they were captured by Confederates...

Well, I just up the STICKER SHOCK ante.

Horowitz & Co. want to attach value to the lives of those soldiers who, in his estimation, fought against Slavery... value for the lives lost in an effort to eradicate Slavery... Well, let's count every Black soldier and every enslaved or "free" African/African-American who lost their lives during Slavery.

We can even set up a calculus to estimate those who resisted Slavery, actively, openly or passively. Now, let me see the Calculators!! sck

Let's see... We got the Middle Passage... We got the various Indian and colonial wars including the American Revolution. We got the Nat Turner's, the Kunta Kente's... The house servants spittin' in the massa's water. The whole damn Underground Railroad. The Steal Away general population choir... The drum beats in the distance, etc., etc., etc.

Add 'em up. Every life lost (i.e. a person who died during the Slavery era) from anyone who performed any type of resistance. COUNT 'EM UP!

I bet there's more than 260K. More than 360K. More than 620K.

COUNT 'EM UP! Run the totals and then tell me what the balance is and who owes what.

No. That's every life lost in resistance to Slavery - in an effort to get rid of Slavery. COUNT 'EM UP!
Christ, where do I start...


quote:
If not for the anti-slavery attitudes and military power of white Englishmen and Americans, the slave trade would not have been brought to an end.


Horsesh*t. There were two major contributing factors to the end of slavery and neither one had anything to do with the good graces of the slave holders. First, at the end of the 100 years war between England and France, both nations abolished slavery as a part of the treaty. They did this, presumably, because the economic advantage of slavery would have undone their stalemate if only one of them had it. But it became threatening for America to be the only Atlantic superpower with this economic weapon. So they began to put international pressure on America to abolish slavery, even threatening trade embargos if America did not comply. They also did their best to disrupt the Dutch's slave triangle by attacking it directly. This drove up the prices of the slaves and made the practice less cost effective for America.

The other factor is the constant resistance of the slaves themselves. They would not remain slaves. For four-hundred years the slaves had resisted their enslavement with greater and greater degrees of success. Toward the end of slavery, largely due to the underground railroad, slaves were escaping to the north almost as quickly as they could be replaced. If this had continued at the rate it was happening for a hundred years longer than it did, Africans would have become the majority in America, and they would have taken their freedom by force anyway.

quote:
If not for the sacrifices of white soldiers and a white American president who gave his life to sign the Emancipation Proclamation, blacks in America would still be slaves.


I think that Lincoln gets way to much credit for this. He wrote in a letter, just before the beginning of the Civil War, that his "greatest concern is to save the Union. If I believed that preserving slavery would accomplish that goal, I would do so." The only thing Lincoln deserves credit for is being far sighted enough to realize that if slavery wasn't abolished, the slaves themselves were going to tear his beloved Union down around his ears.
I think that Lincoln gets way to much credit for this. He wrote in a letter, just before the beginning of the Civil War, that his "greatest concern is to save the Union. If I believed that preserving slavery would accomplish that goal, I would do so." The only thing Lincoln deserves credit for is being far sighted enough to realize that if slavery wasn't abolished, the slaves themselves were going to tear his beloved Union down around his ears.---Black Viking

I really appreciat your post.

I did not have an awareness of the facet of the role of European nations influencing the events in North America. I did know of the dependence of the economies of Europe.

Regarding Lincoln, I have not found any evidence that wanted to end slavery either as a personal desire, or as a war stretegy.

It is clear that once the war had resulted former slaves 'running all over the landscape' there was little choice, but to prohibit the commerce in order to stablize the society.

The continued repression of 'those people' was 'left to the Southerners', and the Northerners simply followed suite.

Man, I find it offensive being referred to as 'a black'. But, anyway...

Our freedom was grudgingly an allowed consequence included in the price sustaining The Union.

African American-Americans don't owe America a damn thing.


PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:
I really appreciat your post.

I did not have an awareness of the facet of the role of European nations influencing the events in North America. I did know of the dependence of the economies of Europe.


Thank you.

Many people are unaware of the role Europeon nations played. Not because the information is unavailable, just because it doesn't fit into our cultural rhetoric. In school, we are consitantly lead to believe that slavery ended because America just woke up one day and realized slavery was wrong.

The fact is that America knew that slavery was wrong from the beginning, and also knew that salvery was unsustainable. There is an exellent biography on George Washington titled "An Imperfect God: George Washington, His Slaves, and the Creation of America" that illustrates this point very well.

Whether or not slavery was wrong was never a question. They did it for four hundred years because it worked for four hundred years. The result of a few important factors caused it to stop working, so they stopped doing it. There was nothing righteous about the abolishment of slavery. It was a survival tactic, nothing more and nothing less.
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:
Our freedom was grudgingly an allowed consequence included in the price sustaining The Union.

African American-Americans don't owe America a damn thing.


Exactly... appl tfro
First of all white people did NOT end slavery as an act of benevolence. They ended slavery when it was no longer profitable for them. By the 1830s plantation slavery was no longer profitable for slave masters. The new form of slavery "colonialism" was the new avenue of wealth. Mother England led the colonialization process. In other words enslave the "black bastards" in their native lands instead of spending good money to ship them to America to work impoverished plantations. Let them extract the oil, diamonds, silver and rubber from their lands and use them to enrich the coffers of Europe. And you wonder why Africa is in such a f-cked up state today. Of course they take NO responsibility for said evils - the wicked devils.

Once slavery "ended" and the slaves were let go, America, Brazil, the Carribbean and Latin America were finished with us. We were let go not "freed". Now it was time to ship in the white Europeans and now the Asians and Hispanics to enjoy this wealth. Black folks can all go to hell! Now to show you how twisted is the thinking of Europeans, if a pet owner was to abandon his pet on the freeway or be found not providing food or water for said pet his irresponsible ass would go to jail or pay a steep fine. Yet when it came to "abandoning" former slaves to their fate, it was ok with white folks. We had cooked the food. Now that it was time to sit down and eat we were banned from America's bountiful table.

No we should not seriously expect compensation from such a wicked and immoral people but just as God told Moses to ask of wicked Pharoah so shall his appointed and annointed today ask of the wicked "Pharoah" of America. Who knows maybe one day God will strike this evil and wicked nationjust like he did Egypt and force them to give it up. Jesus himself will have to walk into the White House and demand the check since obviously America is not going to get off of it without a battle.
"""Once slavery "ended" and the slaves were let go, America, Brazil, the Carribbean and Latin America were finished with us. We were let go not "freed". Now it was time to ship in the white Europeans and now the Asians and Hispanics to enjoy this wealth. Black folks can all go to hell! Now to show you how twisted is the thinking of Europeans, if a pet owner was to abandon his pet on the freeway or be found not providing food or water for said pet his irresponsible ass would go to jail or pay a steep fine. Yet when it came to "abandoning" former slaves to their fate, it was ok with white folks. We had cooked the food. Now that it was time to sit down and eat we were banned from America's bountiful table.

No we should not seriously expect compensation from such a wicked and immoral people but just as God told Moses to ask of wicked Pharoah so shall his appointed and annointed today ask of the wicked "Pharoah" of America. Who knows maybe one day God will strike this evil and wicked nationjust like he did Egypt and force them to give it up. Jesus himself will have to walk into the White House and demand the check since obviously America is not going to get off of it without a battle."""
-----------------------------------------------

This is awesome 'BanjiGirl. My mom always says, if there is a God, and 'justice' be in the discussion at the end of times, white folk are going to be surprised! A real 'Punked' moment for them.
Right On what James Westley Chester said.....we don't owe america a damned thing --- PERIOD !

Now let's see heah......first you invade my house, rape my daughters, kill me parents and put a gun to my head and a boot to my neck and make me serve you for hundreds of years....then you finally decide to 'let me up' So Now I OWE YOU ??? SHIIIITTTTTT
David Horowitz's is an idiot and anyone who adopts this ideology is an idiot. Black people of African decent are owe more money and restitution that America can afford. Every group from the Jews to Native Americans received some form of reparations for the devastating treament inflicted upon them by their attackers. African-Americans have never received a dime and up until the 1994 public apology by the Clinton Administration there has never a verbal condemnation on the part of the American gov't. African-Americans built this nation and via free labor enabled American to be the wealthiest Nation ever, an achievement of even greater acclaim when one considers the short time in which American became wealthy. The European nations have been in existence for over 1000 years yet in just a couple hundred years the US has surpass them in wealth. This is solely attributed to the free slave labor. If I owned a business and paid my workers nothing it would not take me long at all to accumulate great wealth.

Black Americans also enriched this nation through the multitude of inventions that technologically increased the wealth of this nation such as the super charge system for the combustion engine(Joseph Gammel), the automatic gearshift(Richard Spikes), refrigerator(John Standard), heating furnace(Alice Parker), traffic light(Garrett A. Morgan), shoe lacing machine(Jan E. Matzelinger), clothes dryer(George T. Sampson), typewritter(Lee Burridge), advanced printing press(W. A. Lovette), lawn mower(John Burr), the filament within the lightbulb(Lewis Howard Latimer), Air conditioner(Frederick Jones), Electric Trolley (Elbert R. Robinson), The method for preserving and storing blood which led to blood banks(Charles Drew), performed the first open heart surgury(Dr. Daniel Hale Williams), postmarking and canceling machine for postage stamps(William Barry), mail drop box(Philip Downing), elevators(Alexander Miles), fountain pen(William Purvis), pencil sharpener(John Love), Dust pan(Lloyd P. Ray), mop(Thomas W. Stewart), hair brush(Lydia O. Newman), hair comb(Walter Sammons), ironing board(Sarah Boone).

Lets not forget the great Madam C.J. Walker who invented the straightening comb and virtual every black hair product of that day and was the first self-made female millionaire in the US. Also, the great Elijah McCoy who invented the lubrication system for steam engines and every appliance of that day. It is he whom the phrase "The Real McCoy" was namesaked because consumers refused the buy any appliance that was not equipped with a genuine Elijay McCoy oil lubricating device so they would ask.. Is this a "Real McCoy". What about the great George Washington Carver whose agricultural inventions with the peanut and soybean revolutionized farming in the south during the first half of the century and virtual saved the farming industry after boll weevil beetles devastating the cotton fields. He was the most acclaimed agriculturalist of his day.

So to David Horowitz... Black Americans owe NOTHING to America. 200,000 black troops fought in the civil war for the freedom of black Americans. First of all, most northern and southern white males didn't even want to fight in the Civil War and in fact were drafted which led to violence against northern and southern blacks. Don't proclaim any honor for a war in which many white men were FORCED to participate. Secondly, The British and other European nations didn't end slavery themselves until 30 prior to the US emancipation of slaves. Finally, the very people whom David Horowitz's claim help end slavery started that barbaric ass institution in the first place. You can't rewrite dastardly deeds by undoing them and then proclaim yourself a hero for doing so. Harriet Tubman is a greater hero than all of white American combined... BELIEVE THIS...

Reparation is not owed to us, it's payment for services rendered lo' these many hundreds of years. The punitive damages as a result of slavery are owe to us which compounds the amount of restitution from reparations. These are two separate issues and black Americans need to pursue both reparation for unpaid services rendered and punitive damages for the barbaric treatment endured under slavery and the continued vestiages black people continue to experience.

Now refute this commentary and watch this historical Juggernaut thrash that ass. I haven't even scratch the surface and I live for challenges from unsuspecting racists or ignorant bast$rds who havent' done their homework. I'll even supply my email address for those who like private floggings.

oddmodd@yahoo.com

Add Reply

Post
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×