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AQ,

I would sleep better at night knowing that the threat of your savage brethren has been cesed. I would sleep better at night knowing that our boarders have been better protected. I would sleep better at night knowing that we deport all these savages back to their Middle Eastern dictatorships. The good Middle Easterners that appreciate what they have here we'll keep, just get rid of the ones who want to bring us down to their low level.

So I guess you're admitting that Adolph Hitler had the right solution for the "Jewish Problem", then. I know it is true many of the Arab governments including Iran supported the Axis Powers.

Good, I say you guys can keep your oil and try to eat it!!! Since you can't grow much food in the desert!! The only thing holding us back from an alternative fuel source is the oil lobby, but the technology is there!!! Perhaps France and Germany can buy all your oil. BTW, only a small percentage of our oil comes from Iraq anyway, we probably have more oil in Alaska, but cannot drill for it. If we could, we wouldn't need any Middle Eastern oil. I know what would happen, if countries stopped bying your oil, all your countries would have your hands out looking for monetary support and then accuse of us of trying to kill all of you off. You just can't win with some...most people!!!

I'll tell you what, the next attack, and I feel sorry for mosques in the United States!!! You can only drop straws on the camels back but for so long. But I know we deserve all the attacks we get, right, then the next attack I would support a fringe groups attack on Mecca!!!! Especially if any of my family or friends are lost in the next attack, hell I might even join the cause!!! You want war, then you will have it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't believe we have on this board someone who wants to see us destroyed, but then again freedom of speach I guess!!! I'll tell you what, when it comes down to it, us or them, I will go with "us" and f*ck "them"!!!!

Your beef with our government I understand. But what you don't understand when you attack our government, you are attacking us. We will be affected.

And to think I used to sympathize with the Arab cause, not no more. GO ISRAEL!!!!!!!

[This message was edited by IndependentMan on February 10, 2003 at 09:57 AM.]
quote:
I would sleep better at night knowing that the threat of your savage brethren has been cesed. I would sleep better at night knowing that our boarders have been better protected. I would sleep better at night knowing that we deport all these savages back to their Middle Eastern dictatorships. The good Middle Easterners that appreciate what they have here we'll keep, just get rid of the ones who want to bring us down to their low level.



Funny how my Palestinian brethren never get sleep. Little do you know that you're government is the problem.

quote:
So I guess you're admitting that Adolph Hitler had the right solution for the "Jewish Problem", then. I know it is true many of the Arab governments including Iran supported the Axis Powers.



No I'm not, but put words in my mouth if it'll make you feel better.

quote:
Good, I say you guys can keep your oil and try to eat it!!! Since you can't grow much food in the desert!!


An ignorant American remark. Only you (indepedentman) would think the middle east is dessert barren land.

quote:
all your countries would have your hands out looking for monetary support and then accuse of us of trying to kill all of you off.


Aha, sure.

quote:
and I feel sorry for mosques in the United States!!!


And they said middle easterners were "savage".

quote:
then the next attack I would support a fringe groups attack on Mecca!!!!


Makkah will never be touched, believe me.

quote:
I can't believe we have on this board someone who wants to see us destroyed, but then again freedom of speach I guess!!!


You think I want to see you destroyed? Why are you being idiotic for? Have you not been reading my posts? You think I'm against Americans? It was only yesterday that an American stood in front of an Israeli tank, to protect Palestinians (but I'm talking about good, educated Americans, but you ... ). I want your petty little belligerent governments' foreign policy destroyed.

quote:
And to think I used to sympathize with the Arab cause, not no more. GO ISRAEL!!!!!!!



Now who's supporting a Nazi regime, you or me?

Support Israel as much as you like, I honestly couldn't care less. Arabs are racist to you, but funny how an Arab Jew or a black Jew don't have rights in Palestine as a white jew do. So you're supporting a racist, savage regime that orthodox Jews don't even advocate. Zionism, nazism, po-tay-to, potato.
It's only 40 years left of it anyway.

They had their chance to join the modern world with their oil but with their backward ahz 17 CE brainwashed thinking will reject it.

Why should any American worry about Arabs they damn sure don't care about us in fact they hate Americans.

Too hell with Palestinians and that ignorant dumb ahz Arafat who was born and raised in Egypt too!!! I could give a rats ahz about them honor killers of women and hell spawned murder suicide killers of innocent men, women and children. These people rejoice in killing, especially the innocent, look at them after they kill people, never been happier, throwing parties and family get together rejoicing they have killed women and children.Savages is fitting indeed.

They holler at the USA DIPLOMANCY! DIPLOMACY! Yet have organisms and send money to the families of suicide murderers who are going straight to hell when innocent people are ripped apart with bombs by brainwashed fools. No one worth their salt will give way to that because when you use that kind of tactic you are not human anymore, you are a crazed Islamic fanatic.

As long as a people use tactics like that only a fool would negotiate with them. Fuk'em!

Not you though AQ, you different LOL Big Grin

The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.
quote:
Originally posted by AQ:
Funny how my Palestinian brethren never get sleep. Little do you know that you're government is the problem.



Like I keep saying and you don't understand, when you brethren attack our government, you wil also be attacking innocent people. Because the Arab terrorist mentality is not to strike at the perpetrator, but at innocent civilians. And out gov't does NOT have a direct policy that kills palestinians. After seeing how they act, I can understand why Israel treats them the way they do.


quote:
Originally posted by AQ:
Makkah will never be touched, believe me.



I wouldn't bet the farm on that!!!!!


quote:
Originally posted by AQ:
You think I want to see you destroyed? Why are you being idiotic for? Have you not been reading my posts? You think I'm against Americans? It was only yesterday that an American stood in front of an Israeli tank, to protect Palestinians (but I'm talking about good, educated Americans, but you ... ). I want your petty little belligerent governments' foreign policy destroyed.



These are left wing idiots that hate America that you are referring to. So how would you see our foreign policy??? Prior to Sept 11, 2001, I would have agreed with you. That day changed it all for me!!!!!

quote:
Originally posted by AQ:
Support Israel as much as you like, I honestly couldn't care less. Arabs are racist to you, but funny how an Arab Jew or a black Jew don't have rights in Palestine as a white jew do. So you're supporting a racist, savage regime that orthodox Jews don't even advocate. Zionism, nazism, po-tay-to, potato.



Well at least Israel and Jews don't have any slaves in 2003!!!!

I don't post here much, but for every thing negative you post about America, I will go tit for tat and go and get some documentation that is FACTUAL, but does not portray Islam in a very postive way. Of course our mainstream media refuses to print anything "negative" about Islam even if it is the truth because they are afraid of "offending" Muslims. This is the behavior that will destroy us. So go ahead, cause y'all ain't perfect either!!!!
quote:
Like I keep saying and you don't understand, when you brethren attack our government, you will also be attacking innocent people.



When the Israeli's attack those that are throwing rocks, much like those that riot during a soccer match, or a championship game, where is the outrage?

When people are denied basic fundamental rights as a human being, where is the outrage? All that is heard is more support. That is all, not to include an increase in American taxpayers dollars headed for the Israeli military.

quote:
Because the Arab terrorist mentality is not to strike at the perpetrator, but at innocent civilians


Yet an American terrorist is deemed crazy rather than viewed as you place it?

quote:
And out gov't does NOT have a direct policy that kills palestinians


No, they just provide direct support for this terrorism. Money and assistance.

quote:
After seeing how they act, I can understand why Israel treats them the way they do.



Well, that is one hell of a statement. It seems that you really don't know much at all do you? I guess you feel that it is okay to treat people in a certain way if they desire freedom. I guess you feel that it is okay to eliminate blacks from America because of OJ. Sad.

quote:

These are left wing idiots that hate America that you are referring to. So how would you see our foreign policy??? Prior to Sept 11, 2001, I would have agreed with you. That day changed it all for me!!!!!)


Yeah, So the Oklahoma City bombing, the little children dying for nothing. That did not change anything for you? After all your people did blame us first.

quote:
Well at least Israel and Jews don't have any slaves in 2003!


Yeah and I guess that the reports of slavery in the South has yet to get to you? Immigrants forced to work under slave-like conditions. So much you do not know.


As for the reports of slavery in Sudan? There has been some evidence by one of America's 60 minutes or 20/20 shows, that it was all a scam by the Southern rebels to extract money from gullible people. Sad huh.

We have black monarchs, you've never even had a black president. How sad.

quote:
Of course our mainstream media refuses to print anything "negative" about Islam even if it is the truth because they are afraid of "offending" Muslims.)



Reports of those acting in an un-Islamic manner would not offend me because I can show those who act in an un-Christian like manner, such as yourself.

quote:
This is the behavior that will destroy us. So go ahead, cause y'all ain't perfect either!


We are closer than you :P lol

[This message was edited by ArabianQueen on February 12, 2003 at 11:54 PM.]
There have been reports of people being held in bondage in America. Should they be black or an immigrant. This has been reported in the 90's.
Slavery is slavery regardless of the means, there is a current sex slavery traffic that has been linked to Isreal and other European nations.
As for slavery in Islam. It is expressly forbidden. Should a follower ignores this, he shall have Allah to deal with in the end
I have so many questions regarding this Iraqi affair is first of all, why was a Dan Quayle wannabe elected.

Why would this Dan Quayle wannabe say that he is doing this for the Iraqi people and then say that after the US provokes war and should Saddam use chemical or biological weapons, that nuclear weapons would be used?

(Clarrification on this, start a war in which we know he is willing to use such weapons, start this war for the Iraqi people, nuke them and let many of them suffer from nuclear fall-out. Interesting.)

Why would this Dan Quayle wannabe want to use nuclear weapons on the asset they want, oil?

The flow of logic does not make sense. From the election to the present.

Should the US decide to pick and choose who leads what country, what happens when the government decides who leads the blacks here in this country?

Perhaps this Dan Quayle wannabe will demand regime change of the Rainbow-Push coalition or that of the NAACP.

Perhaps this Dan Quayle wannabe will demand regime change for any African leader who is leading their country into par with the European nations. The status quo of power can not change, lesson of the 80's.

Perhaps other nations will demand regime change, say China for Tiawan. North Korea for South Korea, or perhaps even the US. (Nuclear weapons are now capable of reaching us.)

With great power comes great responsibility. As I can clearly see, this Dan Quayle wannabe is being very irresponsible. His comments regarding the axis of evil as set off North Korea, alienated a changing society in Iran, and gave a heads up to Iraq.

To solve the problem in Iraq, you do this. Insist on the organization of the opposition groups. Real organization. Train their forces.
Let them go. Provide as much support as possible. The Iraqi people liberating themselves. Nothing more is acceptable for other nations are watching and there will be further resentment of American presence in the Middle East.
My opinion...

The "human shields" are several things:

1) narcissists, they believe their lives will be regarded as more important than the people they're "protecting."
2) two-faced
3) Cowardly

Let's be real, if they were brave, they would act as human shields when Saddam's rape squads show up at the homes of suspected Iraqi dissidents. But the thing about pacifism is this: you need an enemy with a conscience. Let them try that human shield business on Saddam, not the U.S. Drop two openly gay men wearing a yarmulke in Ramallah to be human shields and see how that goes. Until these so-called human shields are willing to do any of those things, it's all just narcissistic posturing by the clueless.
This was an article in today's news! Smile

Human Shields' Gathering in Baghdad
Thu Feb 13, 1:59 PM ET

By SAMEER N. YACOUB, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - American and European peace activists wrapped their arms around posts on a bridge over the Tigris River on Thursday, symbolizing their intent to act as human shields in any U.S. war on Iraq.

The 14 activists, mostly from Italy, were one of the first groups here using the "shield" title, which suggests they might place their bodies at potential targets to deter bombing. But they acknowledged their mission was only a gesture meant to try to deter an invasion to topple Saddam Hussein.

"I have no intention of being a martyr," Canadian Roberta Taman said. "I'm here because I believe that the world wants peace and that we can achieve peace."

The campaigners, organized as the Iraq Peace Team, have been draping banners over public facilities in Baghdad this week "” an electricity station, a water treatment plant and, on Thursday, the Martyrs Bridge over the Tigris. "Bombing This Site Is A War Crime," the banners read.

Dozens of other "human shields" "” Europeans and Americans "” obtained visas at the Iraqi Embassy in Ankara, Turkey, on Tuesday and were also headed for Iraq, riding in double-decker buses.

"A country that can hardly provide water for its citizens cannot be a threat to the world," Ignacio Cano of Spain said.

Some of the activists charge that the Geneva Conventions governing the practices of war make it a crime to attack facilities essential to civilian life, as the U.S. military did in the 1991 Gulf War when its bombs knocked out Iraq's electricity system.

Standing on the bridge, Iraq Peace Team leader Kathy Kelly of Chicago said, "You can imagine what this city would be like if it were cut off when some people need desperately to get to a hospital or to connect with the people on the other side."

In New York on Thursday, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan and the 15 Security Council members were meeting to discuss the potential humanitarian consequences of a war in Iraq.

The U.N. refugee agency said it is concerned about possible shortages of food, drinking water, winterized shelters, sanitation, and other basic services. It says 600,000 Iraqis might flee to neighboring countries if war breaks out.

As peace groups here and around the world readied for marches and rallies Saturday in protest of U.S. war plans, the U.N. arms inspectors in Iraq quietly went about another day's business Thursday.

Among other missions, a U.N. chemical team began the neutralization of mustard gas from 10 artillery shells at the former al-Muthanna chemical weapons installation in the desert northwest of Baghdad.

The 155mm shells, whose complete neutralization is expected to take another two or three days, were the first banned weapons destroyed by the U.N. teams in the new round of inspections that began last Nov. 27. The shells were actually inventoried by previous U.N. inspectors in the 1990s, but were not destroyed before that inspections regime collapsed in 1998.
quote:
Originally posted by AQ:
When people are denied basic fundamental rights as a human being, where is the outrage? All that is heard is more support. That is all, not to include an increase in American taxpayers dollars headed for the Israeli military.
No, they just provide direct support for this terrorism. Money and assistance.



Ok, let's then hold gun dealers and manufacturers responsible for the murders committed by people who have guns that they made/sold. If you want to change our foreign policy, you're not going to get many converts by killing innocent people who have nothing to do with any type of foreign policy descisions. An old paradigm: you attract more bees with honey than you do vinegar. You people are using vinegar.

quote:
Originally posted by AQ:
Well, that is one hell of a statement. It seems that you really don't know much at all do you? I guess you feel that it is okay to treat people in a certain way if they desire freedom. I guess you feel that it is okay to eliminate blacks from America because of OJ. Sad.



No, I actually know quite a bit, perhaps not as much about the Mid East. But you know absolutely nothing about America and recent history, like WWII to make some of the comments you have made totally ignoring the facts about Islams violent history. You always bring up the atomic bomb, convenienrtly leaving out the fact that Imperial Japan was brutal in Asia during the '30's and attacked us first. I regret using the bomb, but it put an end to the War. You make it sound as if we started WWII, we didn't even get into it until 1941, the War had been going on for 2 years already!!! And your OJ comparison is like comparing apples with peanut butter. Had you used the Civil Rights Era of the '50s and '60s, I would comment. Let's take a peek at some recent Islamic violent events, shall we....

Is this why the Qur'an instructs Muslims to attack and kill non-Muslims as a means of achieving world hegemony under Islam? Is that why Surah 9:5 tells the faithful: "When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters [non-Muslims] wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them."

Islam views the world as divided between the House of Peace (Dar es Salaam), which is Islamic, and the House of War (Dar el-Harb), which is non-Islamic. World peace, according to Islam, is achieved only when the world is subjected to Dar es Salaam.

I guess it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why Muslims have a little bit of a problem creating a democracy, let alone living peacefully with non-Muslims.

In Uganda, Idi Amin slaughtered 300,000 of his own people, mostly Christians. Why did he do this? Hint: the genocide occurred only after Amin embraced Islam.

At the start of World War I, Muslim Turks massacred over 1.5 million Armenian Christians. Why? Hint: It's the same reason the Muslim government in Khartoum has killed two million Christians and animists since imposing Islamic law nationwide in Sudan in 1993.
....From Jamie Glazov
Need more?? I can provide more if you so desire. Let's not forget the Muslim violence that prompted the move of the pagent from Nigeria to London.....


quote:
Originally posted by AQ:
Yeah and I guess that the reports of slavery in the South has yet to get to you? Immigrants forced to work under slave-like conditions. So much you do not know.



What South?? The American South?? If so, you do not need to inform me about the American South. I know about its dubious past!!!!


quote:
Originally posted by AQ:
As for the reports of slavery in Sudan? There has been some evidence by one of America's 60 minutes or 20/20 shows, that it was all a scam by the Southern rebels to extract money from gullible people. Sad huh.



Really??? I'll have to research those reports, but scores of articles I have read offer a different view......


Sudan is another African nation victimized by Islamist aggression. The military regime of General Omar Hassan al-Bashiri imposed sharia in 1989. This move immediately pitted the northern Sudan Arabs and Arabized blacks against the Christians and animists (adherents of the old pre-colonial tribal religions) of the south, and caused the long-running civil war in which at least two million Christians have been killed.2 Tragic as it was for the people of Sudan, the resulting mayhem was welcomed by some Arabic countries -- often America's Middle Eastern "allies" -- that are actively promoting the Islamic onslaught in black Africa. This, of course, is from a religion that loudly proffers itself to black Americans as having a better record of treating blacks than does Christianity. But as I have written in FrontPageMag.com , the only places in the world today where one can buy a black man as a slave for ready cash are in Moslem nations.

Contrary to the myth that Islam is a religion free from racial prejudice, slavery in the Moslem world has been, and remains, brutally racist in character. To find truly endemic, open, raw anti-Black racism and slavery today one needs to go to the two Islamic Republics in Africa: Mauritania and Sudan. Black people have been enslaved on such a scale that the term black has become synonymous with slave. The mixed-race, predominantly Negroid but self-avowedly "Arabic" denizens of the transitional sub-Saharan zone have been indoctrinated into treating their pure-black southern neighbors with racist disdain. (To this day it can be dangerous to one's life to ask a dark-looking but Arabic-speaking Sudanese or Mauritanian Moslem if he is "black.")

For the pure-black populations of Sudan and Mauritania, independence from colonial rule marked the end of a slavery-free respite. Slavery was "abolished" several times in Mauritania since independence, most recently on July 5, 1980. Yet the Anti-Slavery Society's findings (1982) and those of Africa Watch (1990) point to the existence of at least 100,000 "full-time" slaves and additional 300,000 half-slaves, all of them black, still being held by Arab-Mauritanians. Even the head of state from 1960 to 1978, Mokhtar Ould Daddah, kept slaves behind the presidential palace. The Mauritanian government has not tried to eradicate slavery and failed; it has not tried at all. Even the old Arab practice of forming slave armies is being revived in Mauritania, where thousands of Haratines were forcibly recruited, armed, and sent to take over black African villages in the south, where they massacred the inhabitants.
The Moslem world has yet to produce a serious indigenous movement to abolish slavery that was not the consequence of Western prompting.

The Arabian Peninsula in 1962 became the world's penultimate region to officially abolish slavery, yet years later Saudi Arabia alone was estimated to contain a quarter of a million slaves. Thousands of miles away from Africa, in Pakistan's Northwest Frontier Province, girls as young as five are auctioned off to highest bidders. Afghan girls between the ages of 5 and 17 sell for $80 to $100. The price depends on the colors of their eyes and skin; if they are virgins, the price is higher. The girls are generally sold into prostitution or, if they are lucky, they may join harems in the Middle East. From Serge Trifkovic


1962, SA abolished slavery, gosh, that's within my lifetime!!!!!!!!!

quote:
Originally posted by AQ:
We are closer than you :P lol



I don't think so.........

On the TBWT board, there was a poste Nayabingi who was a Muslim from the Sudan who detailed Arab attrocities there. I will dig that up, sans the gruesome pictures and post it for you.

[This message was edited by IndependentMan on February 14, 2003 at 06:46 AM.]
(Ok, let's then hold gun dealers and manufacturers responsible for the murders committed by people who have guns that they made/sold. If you want to change our foreign policy, you're not going to get many converts by killing innocent people who have nothing to do with any type of foreign policy descisions. An old paradigm: you attract more bees with honey than you do vinegar. You people are using vinegar.)

It seems to me that you are identifying every Arab for killing those in the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Why? You do not realize that many Arabs died in the buliding as well? Do you not realize that that the only group that did not die were jews? I mean if we are getting racist here, why not point that out.

Lets understand this, should a gun dealer sell a gun knowing that the person is going to use it on innocent people and target "suspected" criminals. Would that not be a cause for a remedy? By far! So thank you for your point, appreciate it.

(No, I actually know quite a bit, perhaps not as much about the Mid East. But you know absolutely nothing about America and recent history, like WWII to make some of the comments you have made totally ignoring the facts about Islams violent history.)

I do and I agree with her totally. You seem to desire to ignore the Spanish Inquisition, the aggressiveness of the Crusades, the conquet of America to "convert the savages."
What troubles me is that you choose to judge a religion by its sinners, why?
It seems to me that after all of the indignity that we as blacks here in America face, that perhaps we should not be as whites here and automatically judge people without knowing. This is truly a sad display.

(You always bring up the atomic bomb, convenienrtly leaving out the fact that Imperial Japan was brutal in Asia during the '30's and attacked us first.)

Yes, but to attack civilian facilities, not good. This was done to protect soldiers and no concern for the civilians were given. Just because Hitler gassed people, do we have the right?

(I regret using the bomb, but it put an end to the War. You make it sound as if we started WWII, we didn't even get into it until 1941, the War had been going on for 2 years already!!!)

No, you see it is all about the ending. George Washington lost more battles than he won but the fact that he won the last, is what is remembered the most.

(And your OJ comparison is like comparing apples with peanut butter. Had you used the Civil Rights Era of the '50s and '60s, I would comment. Let's take a peek at some recent Islamic violent events, shall we....))

Why is that? Whites were outraged by the system they regarded as being right all the time at the expense of blacks and yet when it happens to them? They were angry at any black person that thought it was right. Would it of been right? No.

Lets see about the Islamic atrocities to date.

(Is this why the Qur'an instructs Muslims to attack and kill non-Muslims as a means of achieving world hegemony under Islam?)

Not in there. I am under the impression that you got this off the web. Sad indeed. Propaganda. Please refer to an actual Qur'an.


(Is that why Surah 9:5 tells the faithful: "When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters [non-Muslims] wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them.")

Again, it is not in there. I know. I shall respond with proper sura's when I arrive at home.

In fact much of what you have written is false and hopefully AQ can back me up should she have her Qur'an available. I will not comment further on this.

Lets look at one example of this ignorance. Hitler. Enough said.

(What South?? The American South?? If so, you do not need to inform me about the American South. I know about its dubious past!!!!)

The actual reports of modren day slavery in America. It is not far fetched and I do remember hearing of it.

In the Qur'an, slavery is forbidden. Do not judge a religion by its sinners.
Should we do so then we would look at what happened in Bosnia, Kosovo, Indonesia by the Christians there, in India by the Hindus.

Now, to get this off a anti-Islamic arguement. Lets understand this, Iraq is a secular country. The people there are suffering, Saddam is impervious to anything other than his destruction. Think of another way to get him, sniper perhaps?

Let us look at American policy. It seems that they have changed its stance of freedom for the world to be like us or else. Many countries did not enjoy the transformation in thought that this country has over the centuries. There is a completely different set of beliefs of being ruled. It is tied into their culture. For the U.S. in its arrogance to go and force its corrupted political system on other people is like the Soviet Union forcing its belief system on the U.S. during the Cold War.

From a protector of freedom to a mammoth empire that uses aggression to force its policies. That is the nation that we now live in.
quote:
Originally posted by Khalilallah:
(Ok, let's then hold gun dealers and manufacturers responsible for the murders committed by people who have guns that they made/sold. If you want to change our foreign policy, you're not going to get many converts by killing innocent people who have nothing to do with any type of foreign policy descisions. An old paradigm: you attract more bees with honey than you do vinegar. You people are using vinegar.)

It seems to me that you are identifying every Arab for killing those in the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Why? You do not realize that many Arabs died in the buliding as well? Do you not realize that that the only group that did not die were jews? I mean if we are getting racist here, why not point that out.



Talk about propaganda. That's muslim propaganda at it's utmost!! Just like the Jews were warned not to be there the day before. You must believe in Santa Claus. I will not even further respond to this RACIST garbage. The college I went to puts out an Alumni magazine. They profiled about 10 people who went to my college that were murdered by Islamicists and 4 or 5 were Jewish, There goes your racist theory out the window!!!!

quote:
Originally posted by Khalilallah:
Lets understand this, should a gun dealer sell a gun knowing that the person is going to use it on innocent people and target "suspected" criminals. Would that not be a cause for a remedy? By far! So thank you for your point, appreciate it.


No they shouldn't. I believe in less or even no foreign aid to any nation, to tell you the truth. Most Americans do. But I do believe in supporting Israels right to exist. But I think it should be done with less tax dollars.


quote:
Originally posted by Khalilallah:
(No, I actually know quite a bit, perhaps not as much about the Mid East. But you know absolutely nothing about America and recent history, like WWII to make some of the comments you have made totally ignoring the facts about Islams violent history.)

I do and I agree with her totally. You seem to desire to ignore the Spanish Inquisition, the aggressiveness of the Crusades, the conquet of America to "convert the savages."
What troubles me is that you choose to judge a religion by its sinners, why?
It seems to me that after all of the indignity that we as blacks here in America face, that perhaps we should not be as whites here and automatically judge people without knowing. This is truly a sad display.


What the hell does the Spanish Inqusition, Crusades have to do with American history...recent American history. Of course there have been Christian atrocities, I will never deny that. Nor do I deny American atrocities. But you people are always denying and making excuses for Muslim atrocities, atrocities that have occurred more recently than Christain/American atrocities. That's your problem. I judge this religion, unfortunately from what I see. What I see is people making excuses for bad behaviour. You either condemn bad behaviour or you don't, don't say, "well they are not real muslims, BUT...." There are NO BUTS about it.

quote:
Originally posted by Khalilallah:
(You always bring up the atomic bomb, convenienrtly leaving out the fact that Imperial Japan was brutal in Asia during the '30's and attacked us first.)

Yes, but to attack civilian facilities, not good. This was done to protect soldiers and no concern for the civilians were given. Just because Hitler gassed people, do we have the right?


I agree with you here. But you still are only blaming the US as I read this. The Japanese did the same things throughout China, Korea and other places in the '30, of course they didn't have the bomb, but they pillaged civilian populations. But what other country will do what it did to Japan, then rebuild it to the point to where now they are one of the most prosperous countries on the planet, and that happened in less than 40 years after the bomb was dropped. How come the Islamic countries are not that prosperous?? And don't blame it on US!!!!!!

quote:
Originally posted by Khalilallah:
(I regret using the bomb, but it put an end to the War. You make it sound as if we started WWII, we didn't even get into it until 1941, the War had been going on for 2 years already!!!)

No, you see it is all about the ending. George Washington lost more battles than he won but the fact that he won the last, is what is remembered the most.


You're right, it's not how many battles you've won.

quote:
Originally posted by Khalilallah:
(And your OJ comparison is like comparing apples with peanut butter. Had you used the Civil Rights Era of the '50s and '60s, I would comment. Let's take a peek at some recent Islamic violent events, shall we....))

Why is that? Whites were outraged by the system they regarded as being right all the time at the expense of blacks and yet when it happens to them? They were angry at any black person that thought it was right. Would it of been right? No.


I agree, but the comparison made was between palestinians fighting for their "freedom" and "eliminationg blacks from America because of OJ". No comparison. The proper comparison would have been to use the Civil Rights struggle of the 1950 and 1960's. OJ was a bunch of bull. Yeah it brought out the racists, no doubt. The only reason why he got away with murder is because he had money, Anyone else, white or black (average person), would have been thrown in prison for life.

Lets see about the Islamic atrocities to date.

(Is this why the Qur'an instructs Muslims to attack and kill non-Muslims as a means of achieving world hegemony under Islam?)

quote:
Originally posted by Khalilallah:
Not in there. I am under the impression that you got this off the web. Sad indeed. Propaganda. Please refer to an actual Qur'an.


These folks took this from the Koran. I think your belief about no Jews being killed at WTC is more Internet Propaganda than this is by far.

quote:
Originally posted by Khalilallah:
(Is that why Surah 9:5 tells the faithful: "When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters [non-Muslims] wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them.")

Again, it is not in there. I know. I shall respond with proper sura's when I arrive at home.


Ok. I will read it.

quote:
Originally posted by Khalilallah:
In fact much of what you have written is false and hopefully AQ can back me up should she have her Qur'an available. I will not comment further on this.


You cannot because it is in fact TRUE what I wrote about RECENT Islamic attrocities. It's all there. You are in denial.

quote:
Originally posted by Khalilallah:
Lets look at one example of this ignorance. Hitler. Enough said.


What do you mean?? It is a well known fact that many Arabic governments as well as Iran supported Hitler and the Axis in WWII.

quote:
Originally posted by Khalilallah:
(What South?? The American South?? If so, you do not need to inform me about the American South. I know about its dubious past!!!!)

The actual reports of modren day slavery in America. It is not far fetched and I do remember hearing of it.


OK then, provide some documentation, I can provide tons of documentation about slavery in Islamic countries in 2003!!!

quote:
Originally posted by Khalilallah:
In the Qur'an, slavery is forbidden. Do not judge a religion by its sinners.
Should we do so then we would look at what happened in Bosnia, Kosovo, Indonesia by the Christians there, in India by the Hindus.


WRONG, it was the Muslims who aggrevated these conflicts. I mean, you just proved this. You have Christians of different sects in Bosnia, Kosovo, Indonesia battling Muslims. By friends from India have always told me about the problems the Muslims cause in India. It is the Muslims who cannot get along with others. Every where they are amongst non-Muslims, there are problems. Even China has problems with Muslims!!!! And they're not Christan nor are the Hindu.

quote:
Originally posted by Khalilallah:
Now, to get this off a anti-Islamic arguement. Lets understand this, Iraq is a secular country. The people there are suffering, Saddam is impervious to anything other than his destruction. Think of another way to get him, sniper perhaps?


I agree.

quote:
Originally posted by Khalilallah:
Let us look at American policy. It seems that they have changed its stance of freedom for the world to be like us or else. Many countries did not enjoy the transformation in thought that this country has over the centuries. There is a completely different set of beliefs of being ruled. It is tied into their culture. For the U.S. in its arrogance to go and force its corrupted political system on other people is like the Soviet Union forcing its belief system on the U.S. during the Cold War.


Coruupted political system??? It ain't perfect, but I'll take it over any Islamic nations political system any day!!!!! If it's so bad here, then why are you not in one of the pradises of Islam then. If it's so bad here, then why are so many people trying to get in here. How come people are not flocking to get into Saudi Arabis, Iraq, Iran like they are trying to get into the US? I need a straight answer, not left wing anti American propaganda or excuses.

quote:
Originally posted by Khalilallah:
From a protector of freedom to a mammoth empire that uses aggression to force its policies. That is the nation that we now live in.


I'm against becoming an empire. I don't want Middle Eastern oil. I think we should leave them be. Let them live how they want to live as long as they leave us alone. I also want American tax dollars to stay HERE!! There's too much to do here with that money to improve things. Most Americans feel the same way.

[This message was edited by IndependentMan on February 14, 2003 at 09:45 AM.]
No refutation, I thought not. Here are the words of an Iraqi that answer your question, AQ:

And why I will not

quote:
I write this to protest against all those people who oppose the war against Saddam Hussein, or as they call it, the "war against Iraq". I am an Iraqi doctor, I worked in the Iraqi army for six years during Iraq-Iran war and four months during Gulf war. All my family still live in Iraq. I am an Arab Sunni, not Kurdish or Shia. I am an ordinary Iraqi not involved with the Iraqi opposition outside Iraq.
I am so frustrated by the appalling views of most of the British people, media and politicians. I want to say to all these people who are against the possible war, that if you think by doing so you are serving the interests of Iraqi people or saving them, you are not. You are effectively saving Saddam. You are depriving the Iraqi people of probably their last real chance get rid of him and to get out of this dark era in their history.

My family and almost all Iraqi families will feel hurt and anger when Saddam's media shows on the TV, with great happiness, parts of Saturday's demonstration in London. But where were you when thousands of Iraqi people were killed by Saddam's forces at the end of the Gulf war to crush the uprising? Only now when the war is to reach Saddam has everybody become so concerned about the human life in Iraq.

Where were you while Saddam has been killing thousands of Iraqis since the early 70s? And where are you are now, given that every week he executes people through the "court of revolution", a summary secret court run by the secret security office. Most of its sentences are executions which Saddam himself signs.

I could argue one by one against your reasons for opposing this war. But just ask yourselves why, out of about 500,000 Iraqis in Britain, you will not find even 1,000 of them participating tomorrow? Your anti-war campaign has become mass hysteria and you are no longer able to see things properly.

Locum consultant neurologist, London


One last thing, from another Iraqi:

quote:
I know they all mean well, but I really don't think coming here and getting photographed with Iraqi officials is helping their "cause". Do thy really want to stand up and risk their lives for this regime. If you are so in love with the situation here, be my guest let's trade places because if it is a "cause" for you, for me it's my life and the way I have to go thru it.

This is from Nayabingi over at TBWT.
quote:
Originally posted by Nayabingi:
Detestation of the black color stems from the historical experience of the Arabs with African people. The stereotypical image of the black African in the Arabic culture is that he is malodorous, deficient in body and mind, and depraved of passions. The Arabic proverb "the Negro, if he is hungry, steals, and if his stomach is full he commits adultery", sums it all up. The name 'son of a black woman' was the ultimate insult that black people were assaulted with.

The Arabs hate the black color, and like the white color. They describe anything pleasant (whether material or psychological) as white. Having a white skin is a matter of pride for a man, and a trait of beauty to the woman. Whiteness to them is a sign of honor.

A man is praised by being described as the son of a white woman. Indeed they pride themselves of having white women as concubines. … They call the black poets aghribat al-Arab, the ravens of the Arabs, in simile to that detested black bird whose blackness is traditionally considered bad omen".

During the Prophet's life
Although Islam preached the unity and equality of human kind despite differences in tongues and colors and that "the most noble of you in the eyes of God is the most pious", the Arabs' attitude towards the blacks never changed

If this was the situation during the life of the Prophet, who preached the equality of the believers, it is all natural that the Arabs' attitude towards the blacks would worsen after his death.

Bernard Lewis mentions this in the following passage: While the exponents of religion preached a doctrine of equality, albeit in somewhat ambiguous terms, the facts of life determined otherwise. Prevailing attitudes were shaped not by preachers and relaters of tradition but by the conquerors and slave owners who formed the ruling group in Islamic society.

The resulting contempt- towards non-Arabs in general and the dark skinned in particular- is expressed in a thousand ways in the documents, literature and art that have come down to us from the Islamic Middle Ages… This literature, and especially popular literature, depicts [the black man] in the form of hostile stereotypes- as a demon in fairy tales, as a savage in the stories of travel and adventure, or commonly as a lazy stupid, evil-smelling and lecherous slave. The evidence of literature was confirmed by art. In Arab, Persian and Turkish paintings, blacks frequently appear, sometimes as mythological figures of evil, sometimes as primitive or performing some menial tasks, or as eunuchs in the palace or in the household.

Ibn Khaldun sees the blacks as "characterized by levity and excitability and great emotionalism" and that "they are everywhere described as stupid". He offers an explanation for this stupidity and love of joy by attributing it to the "expansion and diffusion of the animal spirit". The Old Testament myth that the black people are the descendants of Ham, and that blackness of skin came about as a result of Noah's curse on his son Ham, was adopted and propounded by some Arab writers such as Ibn Jarir.

However, Ibn Khaldun did not accept this prevailing wisdom of his time, and tried to provide an alternative "scientific" explanation for the blackness of the Africans based on the heat. In his description of the inhabitants of the Equator, al-Dimashqi had to say the following: The Equator is inhabited by communities of blacks who may be numbered among the savage beasts. Their complexion and hair are burnt and they are physically and morally abnormal. Their brains almost boil from the sun's heat.

Ibn al-Faqih al-Hamadhani follows the same line of reasoning. He founded his opinion on an ancient Greek geographical theory that divides the earth into seven latitudinal zones where zone 1 and zone 7 represent extreme heat and extreme cold respectively. He postulates that these two extremes produce savages whereas the middle zone, where the climate is moderate, people are well civilized. To him, the people of Iraq have "sound minds, commendable passions, balanced nature, and high proficiency in very art, together with well proportioned limbs, and a pale brown color, which the most apt and proper color".

But the zanj(Blacks, ******s) who inhabitant zone 1 are "overdone until they are burned so that the child comes out between black, murky, malodorous, stinking, and crinkly-haired, with uneven limbs, deficient minds, and depraved passions". John Hunwick observes that while al-Hamadani's prejudice against the Slavs is only limited to their "leprous" color, his prejudices regarding the zanj go beyond color to depict their "deformed bodies", "feeble minds", and "stinking smell".

Ibn Khaldun believed that the Africans are closer to animals than to humans, and that they are cannibals as well. "Their qualities of character", says Ibn Khaldun, "are close to those of dump animals. .. they dwell in caves, eat herbs, live in savage isolation, and do not congregate and eat each other".

Prejudicing the black color intensified in Arabic Islamic culture as the empire grew and the Arabs set out to hunt slaves. The Arabs usually did not address black people by their names, but by the word al-Aswad (the black) or al-'abd al-Aswad (the black slave). When a black poet read his poetry in front of an Amir or a Caliph, the usual response was "ahsant ya aswad", (hey black man you have excelled). The Arab poets usually felt bitter whenever a black poet produced excellent poetry. Their usual reaction when they heard an excellent poetry was "I wished I had said that before the black slave". Their favorite way to taunt their black colleagues was to say to them "qul ghagh", i.e. "make the sound of the raven".

Al-Mutanabbi’s satirical poems on Kafur al-Ikhshidi, the black ruler of Egypt during the Middle Ages, are another proof of this point. Al-Mutanabbi is widely recognized as the most talented Arab poet of all times. He approached Kafur, a freed Nubian slave, who ascended to power through his superior military and administrational skills, hoping for an amara, i.e. to be appointed ruler of one of the regions. He composed poems that hail praise on Kafur.

He even praised his black color and considered it the embodiment of beauty. Failing to get the job he was aspiring to, he fell out with his benefactor, sneaked out of Egypt, and started a campaign of defamation against Kafur. He composed a number of satirical poems, considered the best in artistic terms, against Kafur, calling him eunuch slave, ugly Nubian, and stinking pig. In all these poems, al-Mutanabbi mocks Kafur's black color. He says in one of them, "a black slave whose lower lip is half his size, yet people say to him 'you are the full moon in the midnight'".

He also mocks the Egyptians, and calls them the world's laughing stock, because they had Kafur as their ruler. In one of his poems he says, "many things in Egypt are funny, but they are the kind of funny things that make you cry".

The Sources of Islam & Color Symbolism
It has been mentioned that in its symbolic order, Arabic Islamic culture standardizes the white color and prejudices the black color. In pre-Islamic poetry, in the Qur’an, in classical Islamic jurisprudence, fiqh, and in classical as well as modern literature, the white color symbolizes beauty, innocence, purity, hope, etc, whereas the black color symbolizes the opposite of these concepts.

The Qur’an contains two types of discourse; one is color conscious and the other is color blind; one standardizes “white” and prejudices “black”, and the other is totally neutral. Examples of the first type of discourse are the following verses: “On the Day when some faces will turn white and some faces will turn black, to those whose faces have blackened (we will say) 'Did you reject the Faith after Accepting it? Do taste then the Penalty of rejecting Faith'. But those whose faces have become white, they are (enjoying) God’s Mercy; therein to dwell for ever” (S. 111, Ay. 106 & 107). “On the Day of Judgement wilt thou see those who have told lies against God; Their faces will be turned Black, Is there not in Hell an abode for the Arrogant”, (S. xxxix, Ay. 60). “When news is brought to one of them of a birth of a female, his face turned black, and he is filled with inward grief” (S.XLIII, 17).

Examples of the second type of discourse are the following verses: “Among God’s signs are the creation of heavens and of the earth and the diversity of your languages and of your colors”. (S. XXX, Ay. 22). “O people! We have created you from male and female and we have made you into nations and tribes so that you may come to know one another. The noblest among you in the eyes of God is the most pious” (S.XLIX: Ay. 13)”. The Prophetic hadiths also have the same characteristic of the parallel levels of discourses. Example of the lower level of discourse is "Listen to and obey your ruler even if he an Ethiopian slave with crincky hair". The higher level of the prophetic hadiths preaches the unity and equality of the human race despite differences in color, tongues, and customs. Example of this is "all humans are as equal as a teeth of a comb", and "all of you have descended from Adam, and Adam has descended (or created) from the mud”.

In dealing with these two types of discourse I adopt Mahmoud Muhammed Taha’s idea of the duality of the Qur’anic discourse. Taha perceived the Qur’an as having two levels of discourse: lower and higher, particular and universal, temporal and eternal. The lower level reflects, to some degree, the seventh century Arabs’ particular values, ideology and culture. It is historically bound, and, therefore, it accommodates some of the Arabs shortcomings and prejudices. The higher level, on the other hand, reflects the universal human values and therefore, aims to elevate the Arabs, and all the Muslims, to these universal values.

The lower level abrogated the higher level. The problem of the Muslims is that they think of this abrogation as eternal and irreversible. Taha, on the other hand, preaches that abrogation is neither eternal nor irreversible, and calls Muslims to move from the lower level to the higher level by reversing the process of the abrogation, and to build a new renaissance on its basis.

As demonstrated by the above selection of the Qur'anic verses and the Prophetic hadiths, in the lower level of discourse, white and black are used to symbolize good and evil, good omen and bad omen, and happiness and sadness. The transitional level of the Qur'an and the hadiths reflects the Arabs prejudice against the black people, and standardizes the white color. On the basis of the foregoing one can say that there are visible elements that show that the mainstream Arabic Islamic culture sees itself as a white culture.

Alienation from the Self
The Arab’s cultural identity is an outwardly projection of the Arab self. It reflects their sense of the world, which must be different from others’ sense of the world, for people make sense of the world in a cultural way not in a natural way. The Arabic language reflects the world as seen through the Arabs’ eyes, for there is a strong relation between the word and the world, between the discourse and the universe. What in the universe is verbalized in a given discourse. In his psychoanalysis of western cultures, Lacan concluded that western cultures and languages are masculine. In using these languages, women cannot be subjects as women.

In so far as women can speak, they speak male language. Within such language order women cannot fulfill their desire as speaking beings. Lacan also showed how the child enters the world of language through its “social symbolic”. This process takes place through identification with the father and alienation from the mother. As a speaking being, the child proceeds into the father’s world.
Confused Confused
==========
Qouates from Dr. Baqir Al-Fif Mukhtar

The article I posted was wrtitten by Dr. Baqir Al-Fif Mukhtar himslef an Arab from Sudan who is an expert on this topic.


Actual post

Arab Attrocities

[This message was edited by IndependentMan on February 14, 2003 at 10:51 AM.]
(Talk about propaganda. That's muslim propaganda at it's utmost!! Just like the Jews were warned not to be there the day before. You must believe in Santa Claus. I will not even further respond to this RACIST garbage. The college I went to puts out an Alumni magazine. They profiled about 10 people who went to my college that were murdered by Islamicists and 4 or 5 were Jewish, There goes your racist theory out the window!!!!)

So you understand my point huh?


(Lets understand this, should a gun dealer sell a gun knowing that the person is going to use it on innocent people and target "suspected" criminals. Would that not be a cause for a remedy? By far! So thank you for your point, appreciate it.



No they shouldn't. I believe in less or even no foreign aid to any nation, to tell you the truth. Most Americans do. But I do believe in supporting Israels right to exist. But I think it should be done with less tax dollars.)

Their right to exist is fine with me but their right to treat Palestinians as they see fit is not. So lets understand your way of thinking...

Your saying that if a gun dealer sells a known criminal a weapon, they should not be brought to trial? Must be a Republican.

(These folks took this from the Koran. I think your belief about no Jews being killed at WTC is more Internet Propaganda than this is by far.)

My propaganda was an example so that you may feel how many Muslims feel about the propaganda being spread now. Who are "these" folks and why is it that someone who is not of my religion is trying to tell me how my religion truly is? Disturbing.

(You cannot because it is in fact TRUE what I wrote about RECENT Islamic attrocities. It's all there. You are in denial)

I am denial about Islam having a part in it rather than it being lack of Islam. You yourself are in denial about the atrocities done in the name of Chritianity. I will be the first to tell you that any crime done in the name of Christianity is false, because I know how Christians are supposed to be like, you on the other hand choose to believe propaganda and blame an entire race and religion for the acts of its sinners.

(What do you mean?? It is a well known fact that many Arabic governments as well as Iran supported Hitler and the Axis in WWII.)

Albanian Muslims provided refuge to Jews during WWII. Picture that. It is not a well known fact, it is an assumption based on the current climate and incorrect belief that all Muslims hate jews.

(OK then, provide some documentation, I can provide tons of documentation about slavery in Islamic countries in 2003!!!)

Provide it and lets see what is truly propaganda and what is true. I shall perform a search myself.

(WRONG, it was the Muslims who aggrevated these conflicts. I mean, you just proved this. You have Christians of different sects in Bosnia, Kosovo, Indonesia battling Muslims. By friends from India have always told me about the problems the Muslims cause in India. It is the Muslims who cannot get along with others. Every where they are amongst non-Muslims, there are problems. Even China has problems with Muslims!!!! And they're not Christan nor are the Hindu.)

This is incorrect. You group the entire religion and people into one false evil incarnation. The reasons there are problems is because of those like you who spread lies regarding this religion. You know nothing about it. I have read reports of Christians rampaging in Indonesia killing Muslims, the muslims responded in kind.

There is this saying that the abused end up becomming the abuser. The discriminated ends up the discriminator. To blindly do as your doing is validating everything that the KKK stand for.
You know nothing about Islam, yet you judge. You know nothing about its people, and you generalize. You make disparaging remarks about the Qur'an and yet you do not confirm.


(Coruupted political system??? It ain't perfect, but I'll take it over any Islamic nations political system any day!!!!! If it's so bad here, then why are you not in one of the pradises of Islam then.)

My goodness, did that sound remotely like "GO BACK TO AFRICA?" Well it seems my theory was correct. You have learned from the discriminators here. I guess that next time perhaps you should keep that in mind when someone does it to you.

(If it's so bad here, then why are so many people trying to get in here.)

Now, lets understand this. The government (American) is keeping the people of Egypt, Jordan, Saudi, and other nations from enjoying political freedom. Why? Because they know that should they allow it then they will lose relationships in tha area that are keen for National Security. America is unpopular there and for a good reason.
Why do they come here? The American dream, the right of free speech and the right to challenge the government once they become citizens, as a right.
For you to sit there and tell me to go to one of these "Islamic Paradises" is the same as you telling me that I am no longer an American. That I do not have the right to share my opinion and, precisely the truth, it is corrupt, the entire nation knows it, because of my religion. That is a poor show of character.

(I'm against becoming an empire. I don't want Middle Eastern oil.)

Would you accept Venezuelan oil? Russian? Anything but Arab? What about from Nigeria, they are black, oh no, they are Muslim, so I guess not on that. Bottom line here, your a bigot. Your words show it.

(I think we should leave them be. Let them live how they want to live as long as they leave us alone.)

Sure.

(I also want American tax dollars to stay HERE!! There's too much to do here with that money to improve things. Most Americans feel the same way.)

Then I guess you want the flow of money that is keeping the Iserali economy and military afloat to stop. Inconsistent beliefs on your part.

Being black, I assume that you are, and I assume you believe, that racism is wrong. Yet on several occasions, you have used hearsay about my Religion and you have relegated a race to that of something inferior to yourself.

As for Saddam, we both agree, he has to go. The means is what I am concerned about and the precedent in which this "Dan Quayle wannabe" (remember P-O-T-A-T-O-E), will be setting. To be able to pick and choose the leaders of countries is not democratic at all. Next thing you know they would be referred to as Governors.

My prediction, should the U.S. go to war?

1. Islamic fundamentalists will take over Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and other countries in protest.

2. Americans will be at risk over in the Middle East and throughout the world.

3. other nations would see that it is their right to determine the leadership of weaker nations.

4. Several more OBL's are created and the threat at home becomes worse.

5. Camps would be set up here for Muslims because of those like you, who do not know any better.

6. Isreal will be destroyed by consistent terrorist attacks.

7. Palestinians will be massacred before Isreal is destroyed.

8. Europe will see America as the new threat to the world and unite against it.

9. North Korea and Iran will see themselves as next on the list for "regime change" and shall perform "pre-emptive" strikes.

10. The push for reform in Iran will be destroyed.

11. The KKK will for the first time admit Christian blacks to the fold as they change their belief system towards hatred for Muslims. Get your white sheet!


How come people are not flocking to get into Saudi Arabis, Iraq, Iran like they are trying to get into the US? I need a straight answer, not left wing anti American propaganda or excuses.
Loud and clear, MBM.

Quoting from the good doctor I quoted earlier:

quote:
... You are effectively saving Saddam...


Two words: Hanoi Jane.

It is interesting that the "human shields," and the peace protesters never notice that Saddam takes what they're doing and uses it to try and convince Iraqis that everyone is on his side, and against the people. Sean Penn, David Bonior---protester after protester, and they all don't seem to mind that they aid Saddam.
MBM,

I am sorry to keep diverging from the original thread topic. But when I read things about where I live that are one sided and not totally true, I feel I must respond with the other side and show them that their side has a far less stellar record that they are trying to portray.

It's too bad it has to be like this, but I guess this is life and the way us humans are, unfortunately. I don't take to kindly to someone trying to justify an attack on my home that may adversely affect my life. I take that seriously.

I'm outta here!!! Wink
So you seem to think you know Arab opinion more than I do? Of course Iraqi's hate Saddam, of course they want to see him emasculated, but bottom line is: NOT BY AMERICA. Why can't you understand this? Do you know what happened to Iraq after the Gulf War? 200,000 children casualities, and extended to a million later that year? I realise your heartless, but come on.

Doesn't your government learn from September 11th?
AQ,

I wouldn't dream of even imagining that you can speak for other Arabs, and nor would I dream of trusting your numbers, given that you have zilch credibility on the issue.

Here is an Iraqi whose parents lived under Saddam:
quote:
To those who say the United States should not take any military action in Iraq, I say, "That's what was said about Adolph Hitler." We left the Taliban alone for years, and we left Osama bin Laden alone, and look what happened on Sept. 11. Iraq is a country that has much more money (because of oil) than bin Laden could ever dream of having. Do we wait until Husssein has nuclear capability, until he comes around with a suitcase and drops it off in an American city?

It's important that Americans support President Bush and not protest at a time like this. Can you imagine if Saddam Hussein is watching CNN and he's seeing these protesters? He's got to be having a field day and saying, "Look. Even the Americans cannot agree on coming to bomb me."

I'm 200 percent behind the president.


Hmm. He seems to think it's worthwile to have Americans do it. Here's another Iraqi, named Mukhli, who says in a news story from Oct. 2002 (no longer online)
quote:
"What we are advocating is Iraqis getting rid of Saddam with American help," he said.


A kid from Iraq, living in Britain, said:
quote:
14-year-old Hussein Mohammed who was born in Iraq but came to London with his family seven years ago.

Hussein said that he was not actually opposed to an attack on Iraq as long as not too many civilians were killed. The teenager said that even American rule would be preferable to that imposed by Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.

He said: "I'm against Saddam because he doesn't have a heart for any people. I think he should be attacked. I'd rather have America than Saddam."


They must be one of those people who pay attention to what other people do. Who would get the job done? The UN? As long as they don't send in the Dutch, right? And as long as no Iraqi just comes up and asks them for help, the UN would undoubtedly...stand aside and let them get killed. Yeah.
First of all, I'm sure you're quite aware of the meaning of the word "propoganda" aren't you? Good ... now, Arabs hate America, you think you know better than me? So you'd trust American and British media to tell you about Arab sentiment rather than an Arab. Aha, you just proved your twisted logic.

So you think Iraqi's want this? LOL, honestly I'm going to bother with you, when you're the one with zilch credibility on the issue. Let's ask the parents of the 1,000,000 Iraqi children who died because of America, I'm sure they'll be skipping with joy over American presence.

And don't kid yourself, Bush isn't doing this for the Iraqi's. Thank God not all American fell for the bush'shit rantings of a demagogue such as Bush.
I didn't think you could refute these things. You who come from a country that you admit controls what you know, you who come from a country that never has known what "free press" means, should really not attempt to play the propaganda angle. That's just absurd. It is interesting that you prefer to see the Depriver of Women's Virtues in power, rather than have Americans stop the regime that employs him. Sick, even.

Here is another essay explaining why you lost in Afghanistan,
and why you always will when our soldiers go up against yours. It has something to do with the attitude you display here.

One last thing. In this link you can see organizations by Iraqis who want a democracy in Iraq. Write to them and let them know you would rather they live with Saddam than have him removed by Americans.

[This message was edited by Lea on February 16, 2003 at 11:10 AM.]
America isn't exactly free from sin so you can cast stones here. If I go there I'm going to be finger printed, "democracy", sure, coming from a country where racial profiling is legal. My country may not be, but at least we don't falsly claim we are. My country doesn't control what I know, I've never lived there. Smile

As for that essay, Victor talks about how I'm unaware of democracy. As I state again, coming from a country where I'd be labelled "terrorist", he's quite the one to talk.

quote:
rather they live with Saddam than have him removed by Americans.



Removed by Americans? You;re funny, seriously. If you think that's going to happen, or that's the initial purpose, your IQ must be embarrassing.

You seem to have deep resentment for Arabs and I understand that, but it has made you susceptible to American bullsh*t media. I've been raised in London, no Arab propaganda there Wink.

As for my Iraqi brethren, you think I like seeing them hurt? You think I want them under the dictatorship of Saddam. We have this thing us Arabs, called "Arab unity". We're a body, if one part aches we all do. In your next post please don't try to feed me with the "noble cause" America is aiming at, because fortunately I haven't been infested with embecility. Saddam is an Arab problem, we'll deal with him.
Actually,

My argument doesn't require that America be free of sin. You aren't able to refute a single thing these Iraqis are saying in those stories, all you have to fall back on is a desperate use of the propaganda card, but you know, the thing is, to prove it, all you have to do is show that the Iraqis who demonstrate for America to remove Saddam, have been paid off. You only have to show that they were brought from prisons, that they are under threat of acid burnings and torture if they don't march. The anti-war protesters have marched time and again under the banner of nazi sympathizers and pro-Stalinists. Prove that the Iraqis who march for war do so under a similar such organization, and that the US government is complicit. If you can't do that, then ask yourself if it's so smart to play that "propaganda" card. If you're right, it shouldn't take long for you to bring the evidence.

Iraqi soldiers surrendered to CNN camera crews. What's funny is that we're supposed to believe they'll keep fighting now, that this time around there will be a "Mother of All Battles," but you probably shouldn't hold your breath on that.

And do not give me this bull about Arab unity--where was it when the Kuwaitis kicked out the Palestinians? Saddam is killing your fellow Arabs, and the other Arab states do what about it? Syria is occupying Lebanon. Point to the Arab state trying to free the Lebanese. Where was this unity when the Saudi soldiers turned tail and ran from the Iraqis in Khafiji during Gulf War 1? That was their own countrymen they should have protected.

I have no resentment of Arabs. What would I resent? No seriously, I have no idea. The high rate of illiteracy? The list of accomplishments that stop four centuries ago? The number of books translated into Arabic for the past 1,000 years being what Spain translates in a year? The stultifying environment, the lack of freedom that send the smarter ones fleeing to the US? And the drain is one way. There is much to pity about that part of the world, but I'm at a loss at what I'm meant to resent.

And as I said, if you don't want the Iraqis freed by Americans, make sure you let them know that they should be relying on their brethren, who feel their pain, but not enough to end it.

Oh, most Arabs here aren't regarded as terrorists...they are known as doctors, real estate agents, teachers, storekeepers, a lot of things they wouldn't be if they weren't here. But if you resent being lumped in with the terrorist faction, just remember that you're the one who sticks up for that faction.

quote:
...because fortunately I haven't been infested with embecility...


"Imbecility" is spelled with an I. You're welcome. In your next posts, stick to facts and logic, all that good stuff that make for an argument, because you aren't good at the insults.

[This message was edited by Lea on February 17, 2003 at 08:03 PM.]
quote:
My argument doesn't require that America be free of sin. You aren't able to refute a single thing these Iraqis are saying in those stories, all you have to fall back on is a desperate use of the propaganda card, but you know, the thing is, to prove it, all you have to do is show that the Iraqis who demonstrate for America to remove Saddam, have been paid off.


In what way, shape or form did I deny the wickedness of Sadam Hussein? What wont pass through your head is that all arabs HATE him. But what you also lack to comprehend is that we believe Bush is just as bad.

quote:
You only have to show that they were brought from prisons, that they are under threat of acid burnings and torture if they don't march.


Acid burnings or depleted uranium missiles, napalm, cluster-bombs, fuel-air bombs, cruise missiles and so on? Hmm, toughie!

quote:
The anti-war protesters have marched time and again under the banner of nazi sympathizers and pro-Stalinists.


Oh so the 500,000 in London were Nazi sympathizers? The thousands in Italy, Germany, France, Turkey, Korea and numerous states are all Nazi sympathizers? You're honestly a joke.

quote:
And do not give me this bull about Arab unity


Can you not speak on a subject you lack knowledge in please? Arab unity is abondoned by our leaders. Namely, Qatar and Kuwait. What our governments do and what the people want are two completely different things.

quote:
I have no resentment of Arabs. What would I resent? No seriously, I have no idea. The high rate of illiteracy? The list of accomplishments that stop four centuries ago? The number of books translated into Arabic for the past 1,000 years being what Spain translates in a year? The stultifying environment, the lack of freedom that send the smarter ones fleeing to the US? And the drain is one way. There is much to pity about that part of the world, but I'm at a loss at what I'm meant to resent.


Oh a racist. Nice to meet you. Lack of freedom? Have you been to Lebanon? Egypt? Tunisia? Emirates even? Didn't think so. Again, don't talk about Arabs unless you're quite versed on the subject. You're nothing but a prejudice, bitter woman. Nothing you say will be taken seriously. And you have the audacity to critisize the likes of Hitler.

quote:
And as I said, if you don't want the Iraqis freed by Americans, make sure you let them know that they should be relying on their brethren, who feel their pain, but not enough to end it.


Don't you dare pretend that you care about Iraqis and "freeing them". It honestly makes me sick. End their pain? Yes make them persevere years of war, destructions, bombings, death. No? Shall I bring up the Gulf War?

quote:
Oh, most Arabs here aren't regarded as terrorists...they are known as doctors, real estate agents, teachers, storekeepers, a lot of things they wouldn't be if they weren't here.


Excuse me? You think there are no Arab doctors, real estate agents, teachers and storekeepers? I'm seriously taken aback. I can't believe you're this ignorant and uneducated.

quote:
because you aren't good at the insults.



Well, no one can perfect it like you can!
Here's another Iraq supporter, Israel hater....

David Duke To Speak Against Iraq War In Virginia This Saturday: Richmond Meeting Will Denounce Jewish Influence Over U.S. Foreign Policy
By Overthrow.com
Overthrow.com | February 17, 2003


2/18/03 10:28:15 AM
EURO Press Release

Richmond, Virginia -- David Duke to speak against Iraqi war in Richmond,
Virginia, this Saturday.

Says Israel, not Iraq, is a threat to world peace and American security.

Richmond, Virginia, February 17, 2003 . European-American Unity and
Rights Organization (EURO) National President David Duke will speak in
Richmond, Virginia, Saturday, February 22, 2003 against the war with
Iraq and the need to end support to Israel.

Yup, white supremacists on the fringe are not much different than the fringe radical leftists, islamicists.......

Wink
AQ,

What you fail to comprehend is that the ones who say that they want Bush to get Hussein are in fact real, and not the result of propaganda, and all you have to do to prove it is that they are similar to the anti-war protesters who marched under the banner of ANSWER and Stopwar. Those are groups linked to pro-Stalinists, they are fronts for those causes. See here, A.N.S.W.E.R. sponsored protest.

what A.N.S.W.E.R stands for. There is more here.

In Britain you have Stop the war, whose steering committee and links are filled with commies.

Prove that the Iraqis who insist they want Americans to fight Hussein, are backed by a similar crowd. Show it.

PS: will you let me know just why, when I say that Arabs are known here as doctors, teachers, etc, you get angry and say that I'm saying the opposite?

In the meantime, it shouldn't be difficult for you to prove that just like the "human shields," the pro-war Iraqis are actually marching, and taking cause with pro-tyrannists. But you know what, never mind---your failure to do so at this point is just proof that you can't, and never could.
quote:
What you fail to comprehend is that the ones who say that they want Bush to get Hussein are in fact real, and not the result of propaganda, and all you have to do to prove it is that they are similar to the anti-war protesters who marched under the banner of ANSWER and Stopwar. Those are groups linked to pro-Stalinists, they are fronts for those causes. See here, A.N.S.W.E.R. sponsored protest.

what A.N.S.W.E.R stands for. There is more here.

In Britain you have Stop the war, whose steering committee and links are filled with commies.



Bottom line is I couldn't care less what these people support or don't support. Even if they are what you claim they are, at least they have a conscience this time. Moreover, in the protests in Britain, over 6 different organisations participated, the British Islamic association, Not In My Name to name a few. Are you claiming all these are pro-stalinist? When I was in London, I always participated in events. I used to hold up banners of the swastika with a picture of sharon and a David Star. I wasn't ther only one who held up Nazism=Zionism banners. Are we all pro-Stalinists and pro-Nazis?

quote:
PS: will you let me know just why, when I say that Arabs are known here as doctors, teachers, etc, you get angry and say that I'm saying the opposite?



Original Quote, "a lot of things they wouldn't be if they weren't here."

Arabs who have never been to America are just as successful as those who are educated there. You implied the reason of them obtaining their careers was because of the USA and that they wouldn't be doctors and so on if they were in an Arab country. That's just down right ignorant.

I've explained to you over and over but if you are unable to absorb, it's not my problem. Iraqi's don't want war! How can I prove it to you? It's pretty clear, it doesn't need a rocket scientist. No one wants war. And for those who do, they're just as brainwashed as you. They believe America's word when Bush says, "we're doing this for the Iraqi people." I pity pro-war sympathisers, if they do exist. I live here in the Arab world, I am an Arab, I'm surrounded by Arabs. If that's not proof enough then only God knows what else is.

----------------------

David Duke is a dick. But when it comes to this situation, he's surprisingly right.

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