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whatzgoingon posted,

I wasn't saying he didn't read the newspaper and be aware of political happenings. I meant that he didn't have time to sit and use the bad state of the world as an excuse not to try because he was too busy trying to keep lights on so his son could read at night. I could adult books before I was four, and that was without Head Start. Who do you think made that happen? My father (and mother) sacrificed a lot in order for me to be in the position I am.



*Why do people always imply that when one is cognizant of their social surroundings and the things that black people face that they are making excuses? many black people are acutely aware of racism, faced it in various forms and are highly highly successful DESPITE the fact. "Awareness of" does not automatically really translate into "inhibited by".............Hell, I discussed racism, discrimination and everything else with my dad growing up. He worked for the postal service in texas when it was called "uncle tom's cabin" because there were not many other good, stable jobs for blacks. later he became a president over a black union and fought EEO cases for blacks.....so knowing the racist azz nature of america was a given, but it did not stop anything.....so I am the last to believe if a black is to be successful that they must be oblivious to their countrie's racist reality and on the flip side if they do become successful, not have to act like racism does not exist...........
Okay,

So who does use the excuse of racism as a reason not to try?......since people say that all the time it has to apply to someone.

No one said you implied that racism does not exist. I just know from my own experiences and travels that many of us act like it is not our problem when we become a little successful...we act like it is only the concern of those being obviously held back by it...........
I don't understand how you post comment like that after quoting me and expect me to not think you are addressing it to me? But I'll leave that alone for now.


My Example: People internalize racism and low expectations so much that they feel in their hearts that maybe I really am not good enough to do this or do that. Maybe the fact that I am posting my ideas in a thread about welfare makes it seem like I am attacking black people who are on it. I'm not attacking the people. I am attacking the culture that allows people to believe that being on welfare is okay or not being at the top is okay because nobody expects anything out of me anyway. If you don't think people have that mindset, you are fooling yourself and you need to have a serious conversation with some black youth. It might open your eyes a bit.

My posts are and have always been about attacking the culture around things like welfare where lack of positive self esteem, pride, and dignity in one's self as a black man or woman keeps up at the bottom far more than white racism.

Answer me honestly. If white racism ended just like that, would most of the problems in our communities disappear just like that too? IMHO, what black people have been put through throughout our history damaged us a hell of a lot more psychologically than it did physically or even economically. Mental slavery is far worse than physical slavery.

From the time we were sold, captured or kidnapped from Africa right to this day, the notion that we were LESS THAN has been beaten into out psyche. How do you expect a community to advance when you don't address something like this? The black pride movement started us down that path, but today's community "leaders" seemed to have forgotten that. All our present ideologies are doing is making a slightly larger black middle class and leaving the rest of the community behind.

Fighting for Affirmative Action is necessary, but people need to take that energy and put it into improving Head Start, Elementary, Middle school, and High school, along with educating parents in how to help their children succeed instead of inhibiting them. Catch children when they are developing as people will help them ENORMOUSLY more than advocating for them when they are adults and have weaker study habits and low self esteem than whites and Asians. Then whites who were bitching about Affirmative Action letting less qualified minorities into schools would have to find something else because the kids would have equal qualifications. I say this because I spent most of my undergrad years trying to hone my skills to equal what the white kids learned BEFORE college.

P.S. I'm not successful (YET).
You ever heard of people being more motivated by racism and obstacles as opposed to being defeated by it? You tend to focus on that failiure theme as a by-product of acknowledging and articulating the racist reality blacks face in amerikkka. Hell, i think it serves as a form of spite to the naysayers when a black man attains the highest levels of acheivement and outperform those who try to create and bask in black stereotypes to gain their self-adequacy. And what really makes it great is when a black man/woman never compromise their dignity in the process in order to become a more palatable lackey negro.
whatzgoingon posted,

Answer me honestly. If white racism ended just like that, would most of the problems in our communities disappear just like that too? IMHO, what black people have been put through throughout our history damaged us a hell of a lot more psychologically than it did physically or even economically. Mental slavery is far worse than physical slavery.



* Economics was the main staple of jim Crow that caused economic inequities that last to this day and was the basis of many of the psychological afflictions we have. Many a black was born poor while their white counterpart was born into wealth off of black labor.....go figure. Many of our parents were born into jim crow and carried the psychology even into my lifetime, so the impact is still there. I mean think about it, material items were promoted as the basis of self-adequcy by whites and made blacks bask even more in lost self-esteem based on the inability to obtain these things. Why do you think kids kill over tennis shoes....psychology of poverty and deprevation. Why do you think blacks buy so many Cadillacs? At one time they were not allowed to buy them.....because they were status symbols...i think even sammy davis had frank sinatra buy his.

Read into the psychology of poverty more and you'll see, like Lofton, our behavior is no different from that of any other widespread disenfranchised group. Why is it middle and upper middle class black communities are not violent and crime-ridden like poor ones?


Think about it, if a man and wife have their jobs taken away, the economic strain changes the psychology within their individual household and they turn on each other....now take that same concept and apply it widespread across a race of people over generations and see what you get....this is all so obvious, but in our zeal to say black people are f-ked up, we overlook the very factors others are given consideration for and did not even experience those factors to the same extent black folks did.
I'm confused. Are you agreeing with me or not?

You don't seem to understand that we both (?) want for our people to improve themselves and pull ourselves out of the situation we are in presently.

It's just that I am going to get us where we need to be by fortifying our strengths and acknowledging and working on our weaknesses instead of begging and pleading and depending on the same white man who put us in the situation we are in to get us back out.

I am going to prove that we are a hell of a lot stronger, smarter, and self sufficent than everyone (even most of our own) gives us credit for.

Don't worry to much if you don't understand it now.

You will. thumbsup

[This message was edited by whatzgoingon on September 17, 2003 at 05:55 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by whatzgoingon:

I say this because I spent most of my undergrad years trying to hone my skills to equal what the white kids learned BEFORE college.



GASP!
U mean you defined your educational abilities relative to what WHITE PEOPLE were doing? the very thing you previously railed against? Say it ain't so! Eek
Whatz
my issue with your "my dad didn't have time" post was this:

you attempted to make AA.org posters opions invalid based on your erroneous perception that none of us grew up at/near the poverty level...

You attempted to imply AA.org posters were far removed from poverty and thus had no legitimate insight into how harmful welfare may/may not be to african americans.

Furthermore you did your dad a disservice by implying that the role of workhorse, not intellectual, is the only useful one for a black father.
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
WHATZ

I'm not sure what your last post has to do with whether or not American social policy should include welfare?

Do you or do you not believe welfare is a beneficial program?


Nothing at all.

As I said previously, maybe the fact that I expressed my ideas in this thread was sort of misleading and inappropiate. My ideas had less to do with whether welfare was beneficial or not than my insistance that we need to be attacking the culture that encourages us to be satisfied with being at the bottom. For that, I do apologize.

But to answer your question, spiritual, yes. If you want a more involved answer, read my earlier posts.
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by whatzgoingon:

_I say this because I spent most of my undergrad years trying to hone my skills to equal what the white kids learned BEFORE college. _



GASP!
U mean you defined your educational abilities relative to what WHITE PEOPLE were doing? the very thing you previously railed against? Say it ain't so! Eek


if it makes you feel better thumbsup
but I think you got that one wrong too.
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
Whatz
my issue with your "my dad didn't have time" post was this:

you attempted to make AA.org posters opions invalid based on your erroneous perception that none of us grew up at/near the poverty level...

You attempted to imply AA.org posters were far removed from poverty and thus had no legitimate insight into how harmful welfare may/may not be to african americans.

Furthermore you did your dad a disservice by implying that the role of workhorse, not intellectual, is the only useful one for a black father.


If you could quote me and them explain how you came to those conclusions, it would help me greatly. As of right now, I really don't understand how you got out all that out of what I wrote.

P.S. My father was a workhorse. He was not an intellectual, but he knew what he had to do in order for us to be sucessful and he went out and he did it. No excuses.
whatzgoingon,

get off of that begging,pleading rap...........maybe you need a better perception of black people.....and please do not ever imply what I do not understand. You don't have it like that bro........save the sarcasm for an underacheiver who doubts himself.....But i'll tell you what I do understand/understood...was f-k thinking relative to whites and come out on top no matter what color i'm sitting next to. I come from a place where blacks got theirs at the same rate anyone else did.......as so far as proving all of that smarter, stronger stuff, been there done that....long ago......

The bottom line is..if people utilize welfare to uplift themselves and successfully do so, then they should feel no shame...W and the haliburton types do not feel shame when they steal, murder women and children abroad on their conquest for oil, and use your tax dollars to run up deficits where there are no free lunches, medical care and books for kids.........all citizens should utilize this country's resources to the extent that they can....and not sit there like dumb azzes while everyone around them do.......
Kevin41,

I will tell you this once more, when you try to put me into a certain box, as you alluded to with your Lofton reference or your other allusions that I don't know or want to know what my people are going through, you are insulting me, my experiences and my intelligence, and you really don't want to go there with me, cause you definitely do not know me like that bro, so you watch yourself towards me and I will show you the same respect. Because I have NO problem backing up anything I say.

Bottom line is, yes welfare is a good and useful program. Some people use it and some abuse it. How many times do you want me to say it?

As I said earlier, maybe this thread was not the place to express my "radical" ideas, and I apologized for it. People are tending to take my posts as if I am ragging on poorer, less fortunate people on welfare. That is certainly not what I am saying. If one would only read what I write instead of searching for something to validate their assumptions of my "agenda," it would be clear what I am trying to say.

But people who don't think that we as black people need to stop thinking and comparing ourselves to multi-million corporations, and poor whites and other minorities in an effort to say "Yeah, they are using and abusing the system, so why can't we?" Because they're WHITE, they own this country, and they don't hold themselves to the same standards that they hold us to.

We need to hold ourselves to a better standard than everybody else. We don't have time to worry about what everybody else is doing, because I am dreaming and developing ulcers trying to do SOMETHING, change things to get my people on top. Some have accused me of having tunnel vision. Maybe they were right.

We HAVE to change the way we think and do things is this country, because we are at the BOTTOM, and we can't run at the same pace as everybody else, cause it will only result in us keeping pace at the bottom.

Marcus, Malcolm, Eldridge and numerous others started us down the path of self-realization, but we have become complacent since then.

The mother who shields her child from criticism hard work and the harsh realities of life at an early age only contributes to him being weak and co-dependent when he grows up. These apologist who excuse every negative thing within our community or demand that outsiders fix what's wrong, without really trying to analyze and attack and change things from within only weakens us in the long run.

Some of the thinking expressed leads me to believe that some of our people are scared to move forward because they may lose their place and lose what they have now, hence all the nervousness with Latinos being the largest minority. If you don't move forward you will get left behind. I'll take quality over quantity any day, and we as black people have a chance to move up to be even more of a commodity to this country and the world.

Don't be scared to move foward.
whatzgoingon posted,

We HAVE to change the way we think and do things is this country, because we are at the BOTTOM, and we can't run at the same pace as everybody else, cause it will only result in us keeping pace at the bottom.


* Not all of us are at the bottom and think the bottom is "our place"....many of us have ascended to the highest levels in this society,.....we need to get the attention of the less fortunate, help change their priorities and pull them up also.......and I can not put you in any box....you are the only one who can do that bro.....so I just responded to what you said...all that about being scared about latinos, not striving to be on top, etc. maybe you should explain yourself more clearly when you go into that black folks begging & pleading rap....and like someone else asked you, what do you perceive as offering excuses? and as so far as your dad, i'm pretty sure he was an intellect but was limited by this racist azz country he is living in.........so he APPEARED to be a workhorse only because making it was such a big preoccupation of/ obstacle to blacks in a society that systematically disenfranchised them based on race.....


I do not think any black is afraid to move forward, you need to give your people more credit....damn we overcame slavery to a certain extent, anything else is possible. i think a lack of knowledge and socialization as kids is the biggest problem.....plus the frustration of dealing with this backwards azz racist country daily....hell i'm tired of their hick azzes and i am successful......not the fact that black people are inherently inferior or scared or dependent as many of you have eluded to......you need to me some of the degreed, credentialed people I know who have faced blatant racism and discrimination to the extent that their opportunities were limited....unlike their white counterparts who are much less qualified....so i really would like to advise you and others to really take all the social factors into consideration before you draw your conclusions about black people.....because your posts implies a lot in terms of us not being capable, but first you need to realize that none of that schit ain't registering....because like myself...many blacks are getting theirs and are getting on top....and are not worried about competition at all......just keep that in mind...the issue is to pull others up......because for many of us...our program is in place already..........
inherantly inferior?
not being capable??
not giving black people credit???

UNBELIEVABLE!!! Eek Eek Eek

I will take the responsibility that maybe I am not as articulate as I though myself, because you and negrospiritual seem to be taking what I say and turning it upside down.

Keven41, from reading your posts, it seems that you agree with what I am saying you just don't agree with the way I am saying it. I give it to you raw, with no sugarcoating.

Just give me a few years. You will understand what I am trying to do.
No whatzgoingon, i'll give YOU a few years to say what you really meant...so maybe it is your articulation as opposed to our comprehension.....don't you find it ironic that more than one person is "misunderstanding" you?

I mean damn bro, every other sentence refers to blacks begging and pleading, giving up, settling for less, the whole nine....re-read your posts..........

I'm long down the road bro in understanding.....the schit we're talking about is old hat......to the point I USED to be involved with this daily in graduate public policy analysis courses..."legislation and social outcomes" has always been a common theme....even as a teenager.....so i'm pretty sure i know what the hell i'm reading....pretty pretty damn sure bro............as an educator, when more than one person does not get it...it is not a dumb class......it is me who needs to convey my point differently.....
quote:
Originally posted by whatzgoingon:

... we as black people need to stop thinking and comparing ourselves to multi-million corporations, and poor whites and other minorities in an effort to say "Yeah, they are using and abusing the system, so why can't we?"



oh, ok WHATZ...

I see now that you did not understand the reason I was using statistics re: the percentage of african americans accessing welfare or the percentage of the federal budget which is spent on welfare.

I did not use those stats to encourage abuse of the welfare system. Nor was I motivated by a "well whites do it so we can too" attitude.

I used the stats to debunk a myth. The stats come from a book entitled "Don't Believe The HYpe" by Chideya Farai (sp?) I personally believe an important part of black upliftment is the rejection of false information and erroneous assumptions about ourselves based on media hype or "spin" as it is now called.

Using black faces and imagery to stir up feelings of hatred in the voting mainstream due to the erroneous belief that the majority of blacks benefit from welfare is dangerous, malicious, and deceptive.

In addition, To believe and propagate misinformation about ourselves is in my opinion damaging to the mental health of black people.

only 17% of welfare recipients are black


that means a whopping 83% of welfare recipients are not african american

that means the "lazy, begging, excuse-offering, welfare queen" imagery is bull shit and more aptly fits white women...

that means anybody using this false imagery for political purposes is a manipulator and a deceiver

that means anybody asserting that welfare is the bane of our existance doesn't even understand that the majority of us AIN'T ON WELFARE...

that means black people have been tricked into looking down upon each other, "hatin on each other, and "tsk, tsk, tsk'ing" each other based on 2% of the federal budget!, rather than hating on those conditions which produce joblessness, lack of opportunity, and lack of access.

that means blacks who oppose welfare are ass backwards...

why else would a black person pooh-pooh those who are receiving assistance, rather than those who limit opportunity?

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