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After reading Sowell's article, I clicked on his link to the Rose and Milton Friedman website. What is everyones position on vochers? Why are you for or against it ?
Please do not resort to petty attacks such as "sell out," "Kneegrow," or Uncle tom !!" I really want to know how everyone feels about this??
I do not know if you saw this, but John Stossel did a show called "Dumb in america."
I was a little annoyed how the show did not present both sides of the issue, but the program basically said that most countries that give its people the choice of choosing their own schools outperform the U.S. In these countries the money is attached to every kid. The program also said that schools that spend less per student outperform schools that spend more per student.

Is having schools compete for students beneficial to childrens education ???

here is a link to the Rose and Milton Friedman website :

http://www.friedmanfoundation.org/Thomas

http://www.friedmanfoundation.org/schoolchoice/index.html
Original Post

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quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
I want to know how is it that few people link the current day Voucher Movement with its historical predecessor. With all the anti-school desegregation machinations where Whites tried to get government funding for their private schools... I'm like trying to see how come that RACIST history is ignored or forgotten.


Do you think the vocher movement today has the intention to desegregate ???

If the U.S. models its educational system like Poland or Belgium, most likely American schools will be segregated, but the segregation probably will not matter, because poor performing schools will be shut down, and the students from the poor performing schools will be put into educatinally better schools.So the children from poor performing schools will not be left hanging.
quote:
esort to petty attacks such as "sell out," "Kneegrow," or Uncle tom !!" I really want to know how everyone feels about this??
I do not know if you saw this, but John Stossel did a show called "Dumb in america."
I was a little annoyed how the show did not present both sides of the issue, but the program basically said that most countries that give its people the choice of ch


How is this RELEVANT to what BLACK PEOPLE NEED TO DO to educate our children?

If Whites are pulling their kids out of Black public schools and home schooling them IS THIS IN AND OF ITSELF GROUNDS FOR OPPOSING HOME SCHOOLING FOR BLACK KIDS?

You are a FUNCTION of White Folks Nmaginate.

You can't find yourself until the WHITE MAN makes his move.

In the equation "Y = -1 * X" You are the Y and you can't define yourself unti the White man's X has a value placed within.

Shameful.
Is having schools compete for students beneficial to childrens education ???---Sweetwuzzy

Yes.

As I said on another current thread, by MBM I think, that very competition is the only leverage (money) that can force a change, and improvement hopefully in the current construction of our public school system(s)


I also think Nmaginate's point is key.

Why is it we don't 'jump on' the petitions for federal funding of the private schools that enable European kids evade the requirement for integration public schools.

PEACE

Jim Chester
Please review the 20/20 Special on Education in which they traveled to Belgium to consider why they outperform AMERICAN CHILDREN of all races.

Educational funding gets applied to the CHILD and not the school system.

The kids are allowed to obtain educational services from any outlet the parents choose.

This creates COMPETITION for quality educational services.

The problem is that many American educational advocates are seeking to PROTECT THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM rather than EDUCATING OUR CHILDREN BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY. These two principles are not always complementary.

http://www.adti.net/education/unchc.html

Teacher unions and school choice in countries that have both


(How educators in Sweden, Germany, Australia, Denmark, the Netherlands, Russia, New Zealand, Belgium, France, and elsewhere learned to stop worrying and like the voucher.)
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:
quote:
resort to petty attacks such as "sell out," "Kneegrow," or Uncle tom !!" I really want to know how everyone feels about this??
I do not know if you saw this, but John Stossel did a show called "Dumb in america."
I was a little annoyed how the show did not present both sides of the issue, but the program basically said that most countries that give its people the choice of ch


How is this RELEVANT to what BLACK PEOPLE NEED TO DO to educate our children?

If Whites are pulling their kids out of Black public schools and home schooling them IS THIS IN AND OF ITSELF GROUNDS FOR OPPOSING HOME SCHOOLING FOR BLACK KIDS?

You are a FUNCTION of White Folks Nmaginate.

You can't find yourself until the WHITE MAN makes his move.

In the equation "Y = -1 * X" You are the Y and you can't define yourself unti the White man's X has a value placed within.

Shameful.



Constructive Feedback, I think you wrote to the wrong person. You took my quote, when I think you were trying to answer Nmaginate's post.

And I am afraid I agree with you somewhat. Who cares if white children are pulled out of black schools !!!
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:
Please review the 20/20 Special on Education in which they traveled to Belgium to consider why they outperform AMERICAN CHILDREN of all races.

Educational funding gets applied to the CHILD and not the school system.

The kids are allowed to obtain educational services from any outlet the parents choose.

This creates COMPETITION for quality educational services.


Thats exactly what I said. The money is attached to the child. And this creates competition.
quote:
Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:
Is having schools compete for students beneficial to childrens education ???---Sweetwuzzy

Yes.

As I said on another current thread, by MBM I think, that very competition is the only leverage (money) that can force a change, and improvement hopefully in the current construction of our public school system(s)


I agree.

quote:
I also think Nmaginate's point is key.

Why is it we don't 'jump on' the petitions for federal funding of the private schools that enable European kids evade the requirement for integration public schools.


Why does it matter if white kids(or any kid of any race) evade integration of public schools??
I gotta run but, while we're touting some of their successes, has anyone noted that countries like Sweden, the Netherlands, and Germany are oriented much further to the left on the political spectrum? (somewhat Socialist even - O MY GOSH Eek ). If we examine this issue more closely I strongly suspect there might be some mitigating factors that we're ignoring.

Just an observation. Gotta run.
Last edited {1}
quote:
oriented much further to the left on the political spectrum?


I have little doubt that this is your ultimate goal.

It is interesting, however, that the very teachers unions HERE IN AMERICA are "further to the left on the political spectrum" BUT they advance concepts that are HARMFUL to the education of the kids while they promote job protection.

It could be that we should EXPECT the teachers unions to advocate for their members best interests BUT UNDERSTAND THAT THEY DON'T ALWAYS HAVE THE KIDS BEST INTERESTS IN MIND AND THUS THEY SHOULD NOT BE LOOKED UPON WITH THIS EXPECTATION.
quote:
Do you think the vocher movement today has the intention to desegregate ???

quote:
I also think Nmaginate's point is key.

Why is it we don't 'jump on' the petitions for federal funding of the private schools that enable European kids evade the requirement for integration public schools.
I don't think either JWC or SweetWuzzy quite got Nmag's clear point.
    With all the anti-school desegregation machinations where Whites tried to get government funding for their private schools... I'm like trying to see how come that RACIST history is ignored or forgotten.

To answer Sweet... The intention is for Whites to obtain government subsidies for their private school perogatives.

The problem and even the reason for concern over integration is how it is an American Social/Political Fact of Life that Separate Has and Never Will Be "EQUAL". For sure, equality is not the intent of the Vouchers Campaign. You haven't seen those promoting vouchers talking about equalizing the entire school funding apparatus - e.g. moving away from property tax based system.

You have heard the same ole language used in an openly racist era in American History. They called them "Freedom Of Choice Plans" then and even tried to sell the Black Community on the benefits they would offer African-Americans.
quote:
By the 10th anniversary of the decision in 1965, less than 2 percent of formerly segregated school districts had experienced any desegregation. Local resistance was fierce. It wasn't until 1968 that the court put some bite behind Brown with a focused and specific remedy in Green v. County School Board of New Kent County. In the years after Brown, the state of Virginia found ways to impede integration. Under the threat of losing federal money because of its non-compliance in desegregating its schools, the New Kent County, Va., school board, in 1965, adopted a "freedom of choice" plan, which allowed black and white students to choose which school - the all-black Watkins or the all-white New Kent - they wanted to attend. After three years, no white children attended Watkins, while only 15 percent of blacks attended New Kent. The plaintiffs argued that the freedom of choice plan perpetuated a segregated, dual-school system.

http://www.law.columbia.edu/focusareas/brownvboard/bvbcommemorate
Hmmm.... So, I'm like: "Vouchers?? Haven't we seen this before?"

As noted, some 15% of Black kids went to Kent and ostensibly were able to take advantage of "better" schools. So the idea of offering opportunities or "choice" to Black kids is not the point at all. The History is pretty clear about that. Whites then and undoubtedly now (as if they ever relented) are out for the ultimate benefits they stand to reap from Vouchers. So how does it hurt them to give a little token benefit for some Black kids in the final analysis while never addressing the systematic and perpetual problems that extend out of that RACIST HISTORY? Hell, this is hardly anything but a replay and retry at that historical proposition.

But what I really find funny from our RHETORIC lovin' friend is how certain Deals With The "Devil" are supposed to be "better" than others. I guess with him (with his WHITE ASS) there really is "A BETTER WHITE MAN." He prefers the Right over the Left one even while he pretends to favor "Independence" and dares feign poses of authenticity when his Mimic Glands have always been in overdrive.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
Do you think the vocher movement today has the intention to desegregate ???

quote:
I also think Nmaginate's point is key.

Why is it we don't 'jump on' the petitions for federal funding of the private schools that enable European kids evade the requirement for integration public schools.
I don't think either JWC or SweetWuzzy quite got Nmag's clear point.
    With all the anti-school desegregation machinations where Whites tried to get government funding for their private schools... I'm like trying to see how come that RACIST history is ignored or forgotten.

To answer Sweet... The intention is for Whites to obtain government subsidies for their private school perogatives.

The problem and even the reason for concern over integration is how it is an American Social/Political Fact of Life that Separate Has and Never Will Be "EQUAL". For sure, equality is not the intent of the Vouchers Campaign. You haven't seen those promoting vouchers talking about equalizing the entire school funding apparatus - e.g. moving away from property tax based system.

You have heard the same ole language used in an openly racist era in American History. They called them "Freedom Of Choice Plans" then and even tried to sell the Black Community on the benefits they would offer African-Americans.
quote:
By the 10th anniversary of the decision in 1965, less than 2 percent of formerly segregated school districts had experienced any desegregation. Local resistance was fierce. It wasn't until 1968 that the court put some bite behind Brown with a focused and specific remedy in Green v. County School Board of New Kent County. In the years after Brown, the state of Virginia found ways to impede integration. Under the threat of losing federal money because of its non-compliance in desegregating its schools, the New Kent County, Va., school board, in 1965, adopted a "freedom of choice" plan, which allowed black and white students to choose which school - the all-black Watkins or the all-white New Kent - they wanted to attend. After three years, no white children attended Watkins, while only 15 percent of blacks attended New Kent. The plaintiffs argued that the freedom of choice plan perpetuated a segregated, dual-school system.

http://www.law.columbia.edu/focusareas/brownvboard/bvbcommemorate
Hmmm.... So, I'm like: "Vouchers?? Haven't we seen this before?"

As noted, some 15% of Black kids went to Kent and ostensibly were able to take advantage of "better" schools. So the idea of offering opportunities or "choice" to Black kids is not the point at all. The History is pretty clear about that. Whites then and undoubtedly now (as if they ever relented) are out for the ultimate benefits they stand to reap from Vouchers. So how does it hurt them to give a little token benefit for some Black kids in the final analysis while never addressing the systematic and perpetual problems that extend out of that RACIST HISTORY? Hell, this is hardly anything but a replay and retry at that historical proposition.

But what I really find funny from our RHETORIC lovin' friend is how certain Deals With The "Devil" are supposed to be "better" than others. I guess with him (with his WHITE ASS) there really is "A BETTER WHITE MAN." He prefers the Right over the Left one even while he pretends to favor "Independence" and dares feign poses of authenticity when his Mimic Glands have always been in overdrive.


Now there is no debating that. Cool

Anyone who tries to deny the fact that "school vouchers" have a racist past, and most likely a racist modern-day intent, have their heads buried in the ground.

Of course, many White racists will deny it to the end, and their Black-faced, chicken-eating, greasy-grinnin', coon-shuffling lackies will follow them to the ends of the Earth and beyond.
quote:
Originally posted by Sweetwuzzy:

I do not know if you saw this, but John Stossel did a show called "Dumb in america."
I was a little annoyed how the show did not present both sides of the issue, ...


John Stossel has been a right wing shill for as long as he's been a part of 20/20. NOT showing both sides of the story is his modus operandi.

excerpted from the book
Banana Republicans
How the Right Wing Is Turning America into a One-Party State
by Sheldon Rampton and John Stauber
Jeremy Tarcher/Penguin, 2004
    The career of John Stossel on ABC's 20/20 offers another example of the way the echo chamber works to place conservative ideas into the mainstream media, while hiding the interests of the people who promote those ideas. Stossel's programs regularly rely on interviews and information provided by conservative think tanks, which in turn help advance and defend Stossel's career. Writer David Mastio (himself a conservative pundit who writes for publications such as National Review) detailed some of those relationships in a February 2000 report for Salon.com. Mastio noted that Stossel has a business arrangement with the Palmer R. Chitester Fund, a conservative, tax-exempt nonprofit organization that is partly financed by the Bradley and Olin foundations. Through the Chitester Fund, Stossel's ABC specials are also used as classroom educational materials. The Chitester Fund hires conservative economics instructors at George Mason University, which is itself a magnet for more than $36 million in funding from Olin, Koch, Bradley, Scaife and other conservative foundations. The economics instructors write study guides to go with several of Stossel's TV shows, and the Chitester Fund sells them to schools through a program that it calls "Stossel in the Classroom." The Heartland Institute, a conservative think tank in Illinois also funded by Bradley, Scaife and the others, advertises "Stossel in the Classroom" in its publication, the School Reform News.


Forget his idea of the schools causing us to be "dumb in America", he's helping to make sure we are dumb!

Think about this: our current pResident is the least articulate, intellectual and insightful in recent history, yet the media pulls out descriptions of him that range from "plain spoken" to someone that the average Amurican wants to "have a beer with". Is that what we need in a commander-in-chief -- someone that relies on cliches and repetition to get his point across, has no diplomatic skills and is incurious about the world? He and his base promote creationism as a scientific theory, alternate between lambasting the UN and claiming to have its support for imperialistic excursions into other countries... they support Israel only because they believe that white folks in America are the chosen people and Jesus will return for them and the Jews will all die.

Americans in general are dumb, and the powers-that-be want to keep it that way. It's easy to run roughshod over an uneducated populace, hence the unyielding efforts to end public school education as we know it!
quote:
Forget his idea of the schools causing us to be "dumb in America"...
Well, if that's anything close to his idea then surely he realizes that the schools are a reflection of the society. It's an indictment of the society, it's contradications and conflicting motives and myths.

There is no way, save a DUMB one, to intelligently maintain that the conditions of American schools are the product of any one cause or culprit. The fact that schools, those that are less than up to par are what they are reflect on this society's commitment to education above politics and factional self-interests.
The competition argument doesn't fly. It's bogus from top to bottom, unless schools are going to be changed to for-profit entities, "competition" does nothing. If the change is what's being suggested however, then the proponents of "competition" have not considered the logical chain of events, which includes refusing admittance to the "least among us", in order to maintain or boost student performance and increase profits.
  • ...public school districts in Los Angeles, Baltimore, Dallas, Portland, Minneapolis, San Diego, Birmingham and Seattle raised both their reading and math scores last year in every grade tested-and each of these urban districts did so without the presence of a publicly funded voucher program.28

  • In a study published earlier this year, Ladd observed that other researchers "have used better data and alternative methods and have found no positive effects on public school achievement from competition from private schools."30
quote:
As noted, some 15% of Black kids went to Kent and ostensibly were able to take advantage of "better" schools. So the idea of offering opportunities or "choice" to Black kids is not the point at all. The History is pretty clear about that. Whites then and undoubtedly now (as if they ever relented) are out for the ultimate benefits they stand to reap from Vouchers. So how does it hurt them to give a little token benefit for some Black kids in the final analysis while never addressing the systematic and perpetual problems that extend out of that RACIST HISTORY? Hell, this is hardly anything but a replay and retry at that historical proposition.


Little fella is so worried about what THE WHITE MAN is doing that he can't bring himself to focus on WHAT BLACK FOLKS ARE DOING or NOT DOING.

You know I just don't understand some of you. Particularly the AFRO-CENTRIC TYPES. For so, so, so long we heard that A BLACK CHILD WILL NEVER LEARN IN THE WHITE MAN'S PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM. This Black kid will ALWAYS be indoctrinated by THE WHITE MAN'S HISTORY, the White man's style of learning that is enforced.

When these same people HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY to live up toward their RHETORIC - they cower in fear and cling to the white man's pant leg.

After hearing a SYSTEMATIC condemnation of the policies of this country ONE WOULD THINK that these would be the first people to seek a means of working toward a separation. FIRST by gaining control of THEIR PEOPLE'S "INDOTRINATION" and then establishing economic independence and lastly physical separation for the sake of SELF DETERMINATION.

The truth in the real world is very different, however.

Despite all of the knashing of teeth about the RADIATION FROM THE WHITE MAN'S KRYPTONITE that is harming Black folks so much THEY WANT TO REMAIN WITHIN THE RADIATION FIELD.

I am convinced on a personal level that MANY OF YOU HAVE INTERNAL FEAR AND SELF DOUBT AS TO YOUR ABILITY TO EVER ACHIEVE THAT WHICH YOU RETORICALLY ADVOCATE AS YOUR GOAL AND INTERESTS.

Rather than acknowedge that the high performing Belgium is using VOUCHERS to assist in acheiving it's academic proficiency we have some KNEEGROW attributing it to SOCIALISM and LEFTWING policies.
quote:
When these same people HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY to live up toward their RHETORIC - they cower in fear and cling to the white man's pant leg.
Yahoo!! PUSSY!!! Over << here >> PUSSY!!!

Man, I feel like the Gap Band singing, "You Can't Keep Runnin'"... But your PUNK ASS is full of sprints.

Why is it that RHETORIC is the only and best tool in your busted ass tool box, CON-Feed? Never the one to engage. So you just BULLSHIT!


quote:
  • Revamping EDUCATION and providing a Quality and Purposed Education for all our people.

    This is major. As a matter of principle, REPARATIONS must be about our most important Liberation Imperative and that's a Liberation Education. That starts with valuing and centering our education K-12 on up around the Black ACADEMY -- i.e. Black Centered, Black Created schools. My reasoning:
      No People Can Expect The Best Out Of Their Youth When They Leave It To Others To Educate Them.
    ...The cultural messages that get passed down from generation-to-generation over and above coursework can hardly be communicated and, most importantly, reinforced to the point of understanding without the constant reinforcement in the most formative learning enviroment - the K-12 school experience.

    So, REPARATIONS as properly restorative will be about establishing Black-centered schools, first and foremost...

    From my thread entitled: Ideal REPARATIONS II


  • Now, let's have it. What is the source of your Flailing, Grasping ISSUES?
    quote:
    You know I just don't understand some of you. Particularly the AFRO-CENTRIC TYPES. For so, so, so long we heard that A BLACK CHILD WILL NEVER LEARN IN THE WHITE MAN'S PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM.
    You obviously will never understand or submit to comprehending ENLISH!!!

    What's up with this connection you're trying to suggest about "The White Man's Schools"... PUNK???

    MAIN IDEA. Basic ENLISH competency. Show how that shit follows. Not with RHETORIC but with what I've actually said. Note: You can't pigeon-hole me. I GOT YOUR WOLF TICKETS!! I put holds on you like I'm the whole WWE and the UFC.

    Wrap your PUNK ASS around this and make sure you distinguish JWC's sentiments from mine:
    quote:
    I don't think either JWC or SweetWuzzy quite got Nmag's clear point...

    ...The intention is for Whites to obtain government subsidies for their private school perogatives.

    The problem and even the reason for concern over integration is how it is an American Social/Political Fact of Life that Separate Has and Never Will Be "EQUAL"
    [[qualification added:: It's a fact of life because there is no political will or intent by either White Supremacy Party]]. For sure, equality is not the intent of the Vouchers Campaign. You haven't seen those promoting vouchers talking about equalizing the entire school funding apparatus - e.g. moving away from property tax based system.

    Note: There is not a damn thing in there or anywhere that suggests or indicates that I give a fuck about a White Man's school. I know you're estranged to the word EQUALITY and can't fathom how a Black person would dare try to advocate or accentuate that, in terms of schools Black schools and White schools (funding, treatment, regard, etc.).

    Note 2: Segregated Schools, even the most resource poor ones with teachers that weren't "qualified" or good, could have been seen as "Independent". Hey, they were not "The White Man's School" per se. So I guess that's good enough for you with your simple ass... though you're not separating your INDEPENDENT ASS from that "mixed" (read: markedly WHITE, whether their the majority or not) neighborhood.

    CON-Feed... Do your SELF-HATING (i.e. Self-CONTRADICTING) ass a favor and STFU!!!
    quote:
    Originally posted by HonestBrother:
    I gotta run but, while we're touting some of their successes, has anyone noted that countries like Sweden, the Netherlands, and Germany are oriented much further to the left on the political spectrum? (somewhat Socialist even - O MY GOSH Eek ). If we examine this issue more closely I strongly suspect there might be some mitigating factors that we're ignoring.

    Just an observation. Gotta run.



    Yup. Sweden, France, ect are more aligned to the left. But I think everyone is "touting" their educational system, not their entire government.
    The competition argument doesn't fly. It's bogus from top to bottom, unless schools are going to be changed to for-profit entities, "competition" does nothing. If the change is what's being suggested however, then the proponents of "competition" have not considered the logical chain of events, which includes refusing admittance to the "least among us", in order to maintain or boost student performance and increase profits.---Tsome

    It is not 'the logical change of events' of competition to exclude children from public education.

    As I understand 'competition' in this context, the 'competition' is to perform to the benefit of the child.

    Not make a profit.


    PEACE

    Jim Chester
    quote:
    The 'competition' is to perform to the benefit of the child.
    And that is exactly the problem. And you can't rule out a figurative rush to "Profit." All of that, I can explain but the point is, you really wasn't reading carefully at all (see below).

    But, maybe you could just better articulate the idea about "competition" and actually explain/elaborate on how such "competition" can and will benefit ALL or as many children as possible and, particularly, a big (as opposed to a little) chunk of "the least among us."

    It can't be that hard if your actually believe in "competition" and have good, sound reasons... not so much because of how you view things, personally... but for raising an objection or, in essence, claiming to make an observation that's of any importance or relevance here (much less intelligible).

    Isome... "I"-some (you know, the letter after "H" in the alphabet) said:
    "...unless schools are going to be changed to for-profit entities, "competition" does nothing..."
    quote:
    Originally posted by MBM:
    Vouchers is an insincere effort that sacrifices the future of our children to accomplish political objectives. No one that is serious about education or our children can take it seriously.


    What GROUNDS do you have for any of these statements MBM?

    It seems to me that you seek to protect the current public school distribution system beyond the impact that SOME of them have on the kids that are attending them.

    Years of promises for change seems to still pacify you today.
    quote:
    Years of promises for change seems to still pacify you today.
    And you still seem to think RHETORIC means something. That it is a substitute for real thinking. That you can use it to pigeon-hole instead of dealing honestly, directly, intelligently with things you don't agree with.

    quote:
    What GROUNDS do you have for any of these statements MBM?
    And what did I tell you? sck

    What did I tell you about trying to charge someone else with supporting/substantiating or otherwise providing their reasons why they make the statements/assertions they do when you are too damn chicken shit (heavy on the shit) to do it yourself?
    quote:
    Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:

    quote:
    Originally posted by MBM:
    Vouchers is an insincere effort that sacrifices the future of our children to accomplish political objectives. No one that is serious about education or our children can take it seriously.


    What GROUNDS do you have for any of these statements MBM?


    My position on vouchers is well established here. Do you believe that we should privatize the police? Do you believe that competition in police services would be a good thing? Do you believe that additional funding to equip police forces with more tools to fight crime would be a bad thing?
    quote:
    Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:

    It is not 'the logical change of events' of competition to exclude children from public education.
    Not public education, quality education through the siphoning off of funds by private schools.

    quote:
    As I understand 'competition' in this context, the 'competition' is to perform to the benefit of the child.

    Not make a profit.


    Of course it is the logical chain of events. The issue includes transferring money from public, non-profit entities to private, for-profit entities. Private entities compete with other private entities and their incentive to be the best is profit. To that end they are empowered to make student admission decisions that public schools cannot make.
    quote:
    Originally posted by MBM:

    quote:
    Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:

    quote:
    Originally posted by MBM:
    Vouchers is an insincere effort that sacrifices the future of our children to accomplish political objectives. No one that is serious about education or our children can take it seriously.


    What GROUNDS do you have for any of these statements MBM?


    My position on vouchers is well established here. Do you believe that we should privatize the police? Do you believe that competition in police services would be a good thing? Do you believe that additional funding to equip police forces with more tools to fight crime would be a bad thing?
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Sweetwuzzy:
    After reading Sowell's article, I clicked on his link to the Rose and Milton Friedman website. What is everyones position on vochers? Why are you for or against it ?
    Please do not resort to petty attacks such as "sell out," "Kneegrow," or Uncle tom !!" I really want to know how everyone feels about this??
    I do not know if you saw this, but John Stossel did a show called "Dumb in america."
    I was a little annoyed how the show did not present both sides of the issue, but the program basically said that most countries that give its people the choice of choosing their own schools outperform the U.S. In these countries the money is attached to every kid. The program also said that schools that spend less per student outperform schools that spend more per student.
    ------------------------------------------------

    My main problem with this school voucher issue deals with the re-segregating of schools. It's like what Nmaginate stated......."I'm like trying to see how come that RACIST history is ignored or forgotten." Not only will you have to deal with the racial issue, but just throw in class as well.

    I guarantee you that black children will suffer the most from the voucher system. Keep in mind that private schools can be very selective when it comes to admissions. They DON'T have to take any and all comers. If a child tries to gain entry from a low performing school and brings with him/her a discipline record as long as a cafeteria table, do you actually believe they will allow said student to walk their hallowed halls?? Nope.

    In addition, do you believe that private schools want to reliquish "power" to the government? If the U.S. gives in to a voucher system and starts to divert money to private schools, those private schools MUST do whatever the government wants. What about classroom size?? That's one of the main positives in going to a private school.....class size. I know of a school right now who's having trouble with overcrowding due to Bush's No Child Left Behind. This particular school was built just two years ago, but is suffering from overcrowding.

    I don't know. I think people are looking for quick fix formulas when the answers are right in front of them.....change the way in which public schools work.

    Oh....and another thing. Schools today are so test-driven. Seems like more emphasis is placed on passing a standardized test instead of ACTUALLY teaching kids. Kids are missing out because schools want to look good based on a standardized test....and some schools have actually been accused of teaching the actual test. Wow!!! One principal in an adjacent county actually killed herself in her office at school. Many believe that she couldn't deal with the pressure of having low test scores and the superintendant putting heat on her. Sad. I may be rambling a bit, but I just had to get that out.

    I say no to school vouchers. protest Oh.....and Thomas Sowell is a clown. Wink

    Oh well....
    It recently occured to me there could be another option with these vouchers.

    Suppose the kids came in to be tested every two months and as long as they remained above average they don't have to come to school. Tell them what books cover the material that will be on the tests and let them do what they please.

    If the kids have passed all of the tests at the end of the school year and haven't spent the vouchers with any schools or tutors then they can cash them in and keep the money. I bet you would find a lot of kids are suddenly very good at educating themselves if you give them decent books. lol

    umbrarchist
    I guarantee you that black children will suffer the most from the voucher system. Keep in mind that private schools can be very selective when it comes to admissions. They DON'T have to take any and all comers. If a child tries to gain entry from a low performing school and brings with him/her a discipline record as long as a cafeteria table, do you actually believe they will allow said student to walk their hallowed halls?? Nope.---DogBreath

    Rather than 'naysay' the thing, why not take the constructive route?

    With an assured tuition, enterprising African American-American now have a viable opportunity to create a school(s) for their own children in a construction they approve, and pay for.


    PEace

    Jim Chester
    Rather than 'naysay' the thing, why not take the constructive route?

    With an assured tuition, enterprising African American-American now have a viable opportunity to create a school(s) for their own children in a construction they approve, and pay for.


    PEace

    Jim Chester[/QUOTE]

    That sounds good in theory....for real....it does. But do you actually believe that the powers that be would allow black folk to form their own institutions with taxpayer dollars?? Shucks, some are still complaining about the existence of HBCUs.

    Peace.

    Oh well...........

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