Unnecessary Blackness

So I guess your a victim of the Caucasian imposed misconceptions and stereotypes of the Black community. That's too bad.

Why did you entitle this post unnecessary blackness?

I think you misinterpret the term Black. What's your interpretation of 'blackness'

I guess you were too busy wiping skeet from your face to notice the last sentence of this discussion:

quote:

Read the book, "The End of Blackness," by Debra J. Dickerson to find out....

Read the book, "The End of Blackness," by Debra J. Dickerson to find out....---IRONHORSE

I listened to Ms Dickerson several months back. The longer she talked the less impressive she became.

I think she is of good intent. I am not sure she is sure what that intent is.

'Blackness' seems to have an unsure definition in her discourse.

PEACE

Jim Chester

Iron,

So I take it YOU don't have a definition.

You know, James Wesley, a while back, I used to wonder why it was so hard for us black people to find leaders in our community--why is it so hard to find someone that will lead this nation as malcolm X, Thurgood Marshall, and Martin Luther King Jr. did.

It's because, in this day and age, black people are very crab-hearted--they are always quick to tear down any and all blacks that try to, at least, step up to the plate and do something about their environment. Every single black person that has been in a position of authority, like Condi Rice and Colin Powell or people that have spoken their mind on the state of black America like Debra Dickerson, John McWorter, or Dr. Cornell West, some black group is always in opposition to their opinions and beliefs to the point they are forced to transcend their own race to some degree to be understood?

Why is that? Why can't we, as a race, appreciate whatever talents and ensight these people have to offer us instead of disowning them because they may not share he same views as the majority? It's a wonder why no one wants to step up to the plate and be a prolific leader--it's your own black people that doom you to failure before you gain any momentum.

It just doesn't make sense for a person to have to have street credibility or have to have fallen in some kind of way in order for the black masses to respect them i.e. Bishop T.D. Jakes, Judge Mathis, Mayor Marion Berry, however, people like Condoleezza, Colin, Obama and Mfume are perceived as sellouts?

I said all that to say this--what is the big deal about discrediting Debra Dickerson because you don't believe in her views? I've listened to Debra speak, myself, and I didn't find anything she said to be unimpressive. People in high profile positions like Dickerson, McWhorter, Dyson, West and others aren't going to always be on point--so do they deserve ridicule if they aren't? No. All I'm saying is just appreciate them for what they are trying to accomplish instead of letting your own pettiness and selfish views get in the way.

All I'm saying is just appreciate them for what they are trying to accomplish instead of letting your own pettiness and selfish views get in the way.---IRONHORSE

I do give her credit. If those are words you need to hear, there they are.

I listened to her entire one-hour presentation, and her 20-minute Q & A. Her rationale left her original point behind.

That's only fact.

I agree with her approach to 'blackness' as the 'gathering point' for action within our community.

It is inevitable that the rationale ultimately falters and fails. The rationale fails because it does not offer an alternative.

Just being American will not 'crack the nut.'

I think Ms Dickerson is 'extending a ladder into the barrel.' I think she is saying 'blackness' will not be the 'ship of our salvation.'

I not only think she is right. I know she is right.

She does not offer and identifiable alternative unique to African American-Americans.

To me that is not 'tearing down'.

It is a fair critique.

There certainly isn't anything personal there.

Ms Dickerson is a 'big girl'.

PEACE

Jim Chester

quote:

Originally posted by IRONHORSE:
You know, James Wesley, a while back, I used to wonder why it was so hard for us black people to find leaders in our community--why is it so hard to find someone that will lead this nation as malcolm X, Thurgood Marshall, and Martin Luther King Jr. did.

It's because, in this day and age, black people are very crab-hearted--they are always quick to tear down any and all blacks that try to, at least, step up to the plate and do something about their environment. Every single black person that has been in a position of authority, like Condi Rice and Colin Powell or people that have spoken their mind on the state of black America like Debra Dickerson, John McWorter, or Dr. Cornell West, some black group is always in opposition to their opinions and beliefs to the point they are forced to transcend their own race to some degree to be understood?

Why is that? Why can't we, as a race, appreciate whatever talents and ensight these people have to offer us instead of disowning them because they may not share he same views as the majority? It's a wonder why no one wants to step up to the plate and be a prolific leader--it's your own black people that doom you to failure before you gain any momentum.

It just doesn't make sense for a person to have to have street credibility or have to have fallen in some kind of way in order for the black masses to respect them i.e. Bishop T.D. Jakes, Judge Mathis, Mayor Marion Berry, however, people like Condoleezza, Colin, Obama and Mfume are perceived as sellouts?

I said all that to say this--what is the big deal about discrediting Debra Dickerson because you don't believe in her views? I've listened to Debra speak, myself, and I didn't find anything she said to be unimpressive. People in high profile positions like Dickerson, McWhorter, Dyson, West and others aren't going to always be on point--so do they deserve ridicule if they aren't? No. All I'm saying is just appreciate them for what they are trying to accomplish instead of letting your own pettiness and selfish views get in the way.

I'm not familiar with Dickerson, but I did notice that the name of a certain current Supreme Court Justice is conspicuously missing from your lists of Blacks in high profile positions. Was that intentional?

As for Condi Rice and Colin Powell, sometimes people lose credibility through their own actions.

And sometimes people spend all of their credibility in the service of those who have none of their own to spend.

quote:

I'm not familiar with Dickerson, but I did notice that the name of a certain current Supreme Court Justice is conspicuously missing from your lists of Blacks in high profile positions. Was that intentional?

No, Ricardomath, our esteemed supreme court justice wasn't even on my mind at the time. You're also right about people losing their credibility at their own hand, nevertheless, it still doesn't erase the accomplishments they made to get to the point where they are to assume those high positions of authority--Condoleezza and Colin--two of the most powerful black people on earth.

As for you, James Wesley, don't take my comments offensively. I mearly wanted to get my point across--even though Debra has her flaws, which she has been candid about in her books and in public speaking, she still is an influential person. No, you didn't have to make a good comment about her just to make me feel better--I feel good on my own--I just feel we, as a people, should support our black people whom seek to make a change.

We, as a people, have lost that unity of support for each other over the years--we're quick to ridicule and critisize each other instead of encouraging and uplifting.

We, as a people, have lost that unity of support for each other over the years--we're quick to ridicule and critisize each other instead of encouraging and uplifting.---IRONHORSE

It seems the only thing acceptable is to agree with you.

I don't.

It seems equally real that disagree with one's view quickly becomes interpreted as downgrading the person.

This seems like a perverse/reverse applicationn of 'kill the messenger.'

Rather than a discussion of the message, it has become an exchange of personal evaluation.

I try not to do that.

PEACE

Jim Chester

JWC,

You know I'm taken notes right?

You know, James, I don't know where you got the idea that the only way you can carry a conversation with me is to agree with me. If you don't care for, Debra, fine, you're entitled to your opinion and, contrary to popular belief, I don't hate you for it--it's certainly no reason to be frigid and sarcastic.

quote:

It seems equally real that disagree with one's view quickly becomes interpreted as downgrading the person.

Now, see, that was uncalled for. Any comment that I made when in communication with you, James, was in a general sense and was not directed at you at all.

Why do I get the feeling that I'm at some sporadically bourgeoise country club--it's amazing how some of you, particularly the men, on this site revel in expressing their intellect--analyzing every word, every sentence, every paragraph of a person's discussion, and make snap judgements about people's personalities without even knowing them because they don't follow the parlimentary procedures of AfricanAmerican.org?

quote:

Rather than a discussion of the message, it has become an exchange of personal evaluation.

That was also unecessary--I made no personal evaluation of you, James. It certainly seemed that I could converse with Ricardomath on our different views of Condoleezza and Colin without there being some kind of personal exchange.

As for this person, HeruStar, he reminds me of a person from another site--he too was bitter, spiteful, messy and vendictive because he didn't have the integrity or maturity to accept being bested. He also followed me in almost every forum I made, posting snide, indirect comments, trying to get attention.

I hope that you and I, James, can converse on different topics in the future--agree and or agree to disagree without having to make personal accusations.

Great.

There's a question among others listed in this thread that I would like to know more as to why.

Why the question?

How has "blackness" diminished the sovereignty of African Americans as rational and moral beings?---IRONHORSE

How do you conclude 'sovereignty' in African American-Americans?

I happen to agree. I am interested in your rationale.

And further, with that sovereignty being a reality what we done with it, and why haven't we done more.?

PEACE

Jim Chester

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
JWC,

You know I'm taken notes right?

Me too.

PEACE

Jim Chester

Iron,
How can one's personal opinions be bested either way? The only way that I or you can be "bested" is if we find falsehood in eachothers facts or logic. I don't think that was your intention, neither was in mines.

"Blackness" is a topic that always peaks my interest, moreso other peoples connotations of it. I asked the question earlier because I wanted to see if you thought "Black" and "Ghetto" were synonomous adjectives. JW is a proactive activist with a knowledgable library of insight on the political struggle of establishing our identity. That's why your title raised his brow as well.


How has the notion of "blackness" bamboozled African Americans into an unhealthy obsession with materialism, violence, misogyny, crime, institutionalization, self-degredation and infidelity? IRON


Honestly this question made me flinch a little bit. To me it implies that we do those dispicable things and use "because I'm black" as our rationale. Accusations like that make it hard for me to fight the urge to be mellodramatic, I thought I did well though. I'll show you my rationale for the drama.

Input: rap music, masculinity, blackness, poverty
Result: misogyny, crime, violence, institutionalization etc. etc.

This is what I gathered from you. It's a poor example, but I'm trying to point out the fact that it is false to believe that just because you throw "blackness" into the make-up of someones character doesn't mean that the person loses integrity.

IMO Blackness = Awareness = Consciousness = Soulfulness

'...I'm trying to point out the fact that it is false to believe that just because you throw "blackness" into the make-up of someones character doesn't mean that the person loses integrity.'---HeruStar

Exactly.

'blackness' is used to fill all voids.

When in doubt....'blackness'.

When rationale fails...'blackness'.

When alternatives are lacking...'blackness'.

Debra Dickerson was expressing the realization of the futility of such mentality, and calls for an end to 'blackness'.

My point is that she offers no alternative.

Though it is satisfying to realize the need, and call for an end to 'blackness', no service has been done when no alternative is provided.

We, as a people, need to satisfy the natural drive of all humanity that demands identity; the need for definable uniqueness.

If 'blackness' is all that one can determine for himself/herself, take it and use it until your perception of self expands, grows, incorporates more of the sovereignty of your humanness.

When that happens you can, and will, demand more of yourself in identifying yourself.

PEACE

Jim Chester

quote:

Debra Dickerson was expressing the realization of the futility of such mentality, and calls for an end to 'blackness'.

My point is that she offers no alternative.

Though it is satisfying to realize the need, and call for an end to 'blackness', no service has been done when no alternative is provided.

I'm glad you wrote what you wrote, James, specifically, this part: "..no service has been done when no alternative is provided.."

I caught Debra on CSPAN earlier this year where she discussed exactly what you said she hadn't provided--a service. I do not remember the exact particulars of the discussion but she talked to the effect of calling black professionals to take six months to a year's leave of absense from their jobs, and engage themselves in various projects in selected inner city areas of Baltimore and New York, where they can mentor young black males--teach them work ethics, social wellness and personal accountabilty.

She talked to the effect of not only having accomplished lawyers, euntreprenuers, and doctors volunteer their time, she also discussed the involvement of college students volunteering their time to work with the various mentoring organizations that Debra is either affiliated or familiar with. Now, just because I am not in the position of copying and pasting exact details, facts, and direct quotations in this discussion doesn't mean I'm lying nor should it make what I'm saying any less valid.

Now, as far as 'blackness' is concerned, I discussed that, to some degree, with Ricardomath as well as you, James:

quote:

It just doesn't make sense for a person to have to have street credibility or have to have fallen in some kind of way in order for the black masses to respect them i.e. Bishop T.D. Jakes, Judge Mathis, Mayor Marion Berry, however, people like Condoleezza, Colin, Obama and Mfume are perceived as sellouts?

There is a culture amongst black people that you have to have a certain 'blackness' in order to be credible--it affects high profile blacks across the board--even Reggie Miller of the Indiana Pacers has attested to being treated unfairly by his peers because he doesn't share the same humble beginings of the typical black NBA star.

People like Condoleeza Rice, Colin Powell, John McWhorter, Quaze Mfume, Debra Dickerson, and, well, any black republican, for that matter (I'm an independent by the way), are considered sellouts, whereas, people like Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, Bishop T.D. Jakes, Judge Mathis, and Mayor Marion Berry are, for the most part, are unconditionally embraced.

Even Thurgood Marshall was generally painted as being a communist and a sellout in the height of his career as a lawyer as he worked tirelessly to abolish Jim Crow, whereas, Martin Luther King was embraced--even now, in recent years, Martin Luther King Jr's credibility has been attacked by some of his own surviving supporters, who were closest to him.

Believe me, James, I've been taking notes too since I first came to this site. I investigated many other websites, as well as this one, before I chose to take an active role here, and also bring four other new members, qty226, HeavenlyBody_77, AVISUNSHINE, and xxGAMBITxx here.

This is why I've always said, don't make snap judgements of people before you take the time to get to know them.

quote:

How has the notion of "blackness" bamboozled African Americans into an unhealthy obsession with materialism, violence, misogyny, crime, institutionalization, self-degredation and infidelity?

See, here's where my unorthodoxed sense of humor comes into play--I purposefully wrote that passage WITHOUT stating the source--the inside flap of Debra Dickerson's book, "The End of Blackness," which is also why I suggested reading the book. You are coming to find out VERY quickly that I purposefully write with the intent to raise eyebrows, otherwise, my postings would have basically gone unoticed.

With all due respect, anyone, particularly someone that would frequent a site that is considered to be of "intelligence.black.unity" would at least casually stroll over to their favorite bookstore, and at least seek out the book, crack it open and skimm the sleeve.

IRONHORSE:

I don't know what makes it necessary for you to repeatedly go back to this 'street credibility' thing.

I understand what you have said about one group of notables versus the other. Unfortunately, that is true.

I have found that this behavior is just another in the list I made for alternatives to 'blackness.'

With this thinking, and when all else fails, the argument reverts to; 'You ain't street.' 'You ain't 'black'. or 'You ain't 'black' enough.

And the list goes on.

You don't owe me credentials.

You say Debra Dickerson did offer alternatives to 'blackness' with her challenge to professionals to do stuff.

That is not an alternative to 'blackness.'

It is a challenge to a different lifestyle.

'Blackness' has become an identity for many.

Social service is great, but it cannot be an alternative for 'blackness'.

If you were making a list of social services, surely you would put 'blackness' on that list.

By the way, I agree with you about this site. I have said many times is the class of the African American focus on the Internet.

MBM gets credit for that.

He does an excellent job of controlling the crab grass.

And stimulating healthy growth.


PEACE

Jim Chester

Okay, James, we're both intelligent men and understand there are two different definitions of 'blackness' both being true by afrocultural standards which, in laymen's has been loosely identified as being "black" and being a "nigger."

I liked the way Chris Rock and his mother explained the difference in "blackness" in an interview on the 60 minutes:

quote:

"I consider myself to be black...a nigger will sit at home, watch you leave your home, go to work, rob your home while you're gone, and when you return he'll say, "I heard you got robbed!....I wouldn't want a nigger living next to me."

quote:

Originally posted by IRONHORSE:
Okay, James, we're both intelligent men and understand there are two different definitions of 'blackness' both being true by afrocultural standards which, in laymen's has been loosely identified as being "black" and being a "nigger."

I liked the way Chris Rock and his mother explained the difference in "blackness" in an interview on the 60 minutes:

quote:

"I consider myself to be black...a nigger will sit at home, watch you leave your home, go to work, rob your home while you're gone, and when you return he'll say, "I heard you got robbed!....I wouldn't want a nigger living next to me."

Forgive me.

I am not so intelligent as to be able to have a discussion based 'nigger as one the definitions' for Americans of unknown African ancestry.

You are looking for some else.

PEACE

Jim Chester

You know what, James, forget it, dude. This sarcastic bullshit you keep spilling is annoying.

I'll just talk to the women on this site that have the maturity and objective state of mind to converse without insisting on being such a tight ass.

Iron
Being raised by two women handicapped you. You're finding it very hard to correspond with the brothas without throwing a temper tantrum.

quote:

Originally posted by IRONHORSE:
You know what, James, forget it, dude. This sarcastic bullshit you keep spilling is annoying.

I'll just talk to the women on this site that have the maturity and objective state of mind to converse without insisting on being such a tight ass.

Thanks.

PEACE

Jim Chester

You're welcome, bourgie prude.

quote:

Originally posted by IRONHORSE:
I said all that to say this--what is the big deal about discrediting Debra Dickerson because you don't believe in her views? I've listened to Debra speak, myself, and I didn't find anything she said to be unimpressive. People in high profile positions like Dickerson, McWhorter, Dyson, West and others aren't going to always be on point--so do they deserve ridicule if they aren't? No. All I'm saying is just appreciate them for what they are trying to accomplish instead of letting your own pettiness and selfish views get in the way.

I'm not familiar with Dickerson, either, but as far as some of the others you mentioned, I do see your point ... but for me, it is a lot easier to give them respect for their accomplishments, rather than appreciation. Although the achievements of Condi or Dyson or West or John Whorter or Clarence Thomas are certainly about personal gain, I'd be much more appreciative if more of them where using their positions of power for our political/economical/social gain.

I think ricardomath's statement says it very plainly:

quote:

And sometimes people spend all of their credibility in the service of those who have none of their own to spend.

And therefore, I can give them their "E" for effort and a pat on the back for a job well done it getting to a place of high achievement ... but to be a true leader, one needs to be able to have followers. And black people will follow someone who is extending the effort to put it on the line for the betterment and benefit of Black people as a whole. Hence, you had Martin and Malcolm and Marshall. What they did was for the benefit of all ... not just themselves. And I don't know that any of those that you named could fit that criteria.

I totally agree that we, as a people, are very quick to judge and ridicule and critize ... and don't nearly give the encouragement that we need to when it is due. But, I don't believe that there's a whole lot of people who have the capacity to be either or; riduculed or encouraged .. or .. criticized or uplifted. (Most folks are usually doing something that is determined to be either one or the other, if you know what I mean! ). But there are a lot of good people out there doing good things. They don't get the airtime for doing them, though, so many of their deeds go unheraled and unencouraged.

Condi's over in the Middle East pushing Bush's bulls**t plan for peace that he has never had any intention of actually doing something towards having it implemented ... I'm sorry, but she gets no brownie points for that!! I can respect her for her position, but she has no power. Let her go over to Africa and tell them we are going to do everything in our power to stop the genocide in Darfur ... then I will take my hat off to her!!

quote:

Condi's over in the Middle East pushing Bush's bulls**t plan for peace that he has never had any intention of actually doing something towards having it implemented ... I'm sorry, but she gets no brownie points for that!!

You know, EbonyRose, there's a saying, and I'm sure you're aware of it: "It's a dirty job but someone has to do it." Yeah, yeah, some people can say, "Well, why does it have to be somebody black?" I'd rather see Condoleezza doing what she's doing, regardless of whether I believe in her actions or not (which I don't, hell, I'm not even republican), than seeing yet another negro on COPS being plowed into the ground for fleeing the police.

I understand what you're saying, EbonyRose, and I fully agree with you but you have to look at the big picture--I'm reminded of a story I heard from a professor--he talked about an African official that visited America for the first time. When he landed at JFK airport, he was greeted by an American official. The American official shook his hand, and the African official responded by saying, "What's up, Nigga?"

I said all that to say this: the world is watching everything we do and say--our culture influences the world--this is why the African official felt it was acceptable to greet an American by saying "What's up, nigga?" because that is the perception they have of us. Condolezza may be representing an ignorant, impish, shrewd, self-absorbed, alcoholic of an individual with an inferiority complex, nevertheless, she is representing a positive image as a black person and a black woman.

Her mere presence, the caliber of person she is, and the position she holds sends a strong message, not only to Africa but also to the people in Iraq, the middleast, which is particularly important to them in overcoming the traditionally sexist doctrine of their culture. It helps our foreign counterparts to develop a different perspective of America, more broad than what they recieve through radio, television, movies, and music. Sometimes, we need to broaden our perspective instead of thinking on a personal level.

quote:

she is representing a positive image as a black person and a black woman

And that would be your personal perspective.

You say she is "positive". That's your view. There are those that differ from yours. And yours, again, is on a personal level.

And critiques about what Condi/Colin represents to the world, particularly as a reflection of what African-Americans are like also speak to how she/they has damaged the image people in the world may have had especially considering what they may have been lead to believe by the Civil Rights Movement Era. Something that had a pronounced effect on other parts of the world.

People who have/had a view of African-Americans when referencing that Era would, by competing arguments, wonder why or how it is Condi/Colin are acting on behalf of White Americans from White American CREATION and things ultimately for White American benefit and interests.

Again, yours is a personal level view of Condi. And there have been other women in high level positions (Margaret Thatcher)... Any idea about "strong messages" is purely some ethnocentric bullshit. America doesn't have any Moral Highground to claim or Moral Authority over anyone.

It's been 40 or so years since women here got a chance... How in the hell when we're still trying to get our shit right are we going to preach to someone else, with actual words or "by example", about how sexist their culture is.

This is some Egotistical and Hypocritical BULLSHIT!

This lends a lot of credibility to the Cold War Factor weighing in on how the Civil Rights Movement played out...

Well, IronHorse, I hear what you're sayin', but I'm not so sure my perspective is solely on a personal level.

While I understand what are saying and can agree with it, the way I see it, as with the story of your professor, the image presented is not always a positive one or the most productive way to have us represented as a people. Clarence "Uncle" Thomas comes to mind. He is a supreme court judge, which gives him the image of being a Black man in a position of power and influence. But, he doesn't care about Black people. He claims he is working for the benefit of America and Americans, of which we are a part. And he uses that power and influence that he actually possesses, not as a Black man for Black people, but as merely a man for America. And Black people should appreciate that?

The image your professor spoke about happened to be one of the negative ones. But it's the one out there. Black people going from poverty to living large with drugs, cars, throwing aroung money and all the sex-slaves you have time for ... and calling each other "nigga. That's the image. But it's not the reality of the majority of the African American people.

I will give Condi props for exactly what she deserves them for ... making it up and out of Alabama to become a college professor/provost --at Stanford, no less -- and continuing on to work her way through Washington to become the Secretary of State for the United States of America! I mean, that is impressive. Whether I thought so or not! But, Condi like Clarence, they both not only care about America more than they care about Black people, but they care only about America. And America has always hurt Black people.

Now, I'm not saying either one of them needs to be out there doing a Malcolm X thing or anything, but if you're not trying to help, then you are aiding in the continuance of the hurting. When people are presented and/or present themselves as a successful Black person in a position of power and influence to get to that place, yet would rather not be thought of or considered as a Black _______ (whatever it is you are), then me, as a black person, have nothing to really "appreciate" them for! They aren't doing me no favors. I would not stand them up as a pillar of the Black community on a pedistal higher than I would, say, a Shirley Chisholm or a Julian Bond or any of those nameless teachers in our inner cities building strong minds in our young children.

We do have Black people to look up to and appreciate for their efforts towards us. Then we have other Black people who put in little or no effort at all. Black people need to learn the difference. And give proper credit where credit is due, instead of laying our loyalty in places it doesn't even belong. We are wasting precious time.

At least that's the way I see it.

Part of the issue here is, perhaps, the unrealistic expectations we have of political/elected officials. We do have to look at them within the context of their position within the system they work. That's something to be reconciled and dealt with upfront and out in the open.

I think EBONY echoed what I said on your SUPPORTING BLACK LEADERS (Leading Blacks) thread, IRONHORSE. And actually, we can't stand each other! lol... (So you can forget about the conspiracy theories.)

But you can see how she (and I) do recognize Condi for her (personal) accomplishments. But that's about the extent of it. At least you could try to defend her from the Bill Cosby philanthropy angle or something and show what she contributed to the African-American Community -- specifically.

I think EBONY laid it out well for you with the American vs. Black/African-American identity and service mentality. You will note how she said none of them have to be a Malcolm X... Sorta like me saying if they can be Half A Booker T...

Part of the issue here is, perhaps, the unrealistic expectations we have of political/elected officials. We do have to look at them within the context of their position within the system they work. That's something to be reconciled and dealt with upfront and out in the open.

I think EBONY echoed what I said on your SUPPORTING BLACK LEADERS (Leading Blacks) thread, IRONHORSE. And actually, we can't stand each other! lol... (So you can forget about the conspiracy theories.)

But you can see how she (and I) do recognize Condi for her (personal) accomplishments. But that's about the extent of it. At least you could try to defend her from the Bill Cosby philanthropy angle or something and show what she contributed to the African-American Community -- specifically.

I think EBONY laid it out well for you with the American vs. Black/African-American identity and service mentality.

Now, I'm not saying either one of them needs to be out there doing a Malcolm X thing or anything, but if you're not trying to help, then you are aiding in the continuance of the hurting.---EbonyRose

In a nutshell.

Well said.

PEACE

Jim Chester

I agree with ER. I have no respect for Condasleeza or Collin. I might give either of them a slap upside the head, but not a pat on the back. They are selling out their people and humanity in general by doing the bidding of the few European Western imperialist elite that oppress and exploit African people, and the majority of mankind.

Star Wars analogy... They work for the dark side of the force. I don't care what ethnic/racial group they are a part of. In fact, the fact that they are a part of my ethnic/racial group makes it worse! If the goal/forces they serve is/are evil...That is all that I will judge them on.

As for "Blackness diminishing the soveriegnty of Africans in America as rational and moral beings"...

I think that is because the idea of "blackness"(as it has been described here, albeit I have not, nor do I plan to read the book mentioned, it sounds too elementary a subject matter, no offense)has warped into an extreme form of racial based style of consumerism. All of Western(particularly Amerikkkan) society is extremely materialistic and has morphed into a consumer based culture. It is just the stereotypical 'form' that denotes different ethnic types(supposedly) I think it is also because African/Africaness is often dissasociated from "blackness".

Often when confrunted by people who stereotype particular "ghetto" behavior/values(for lack of a better term) as Black. I ask..."What does that have to do with Africa?"

The silence I receive in response never fails to amaze me.

quote:

Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

I might give either of them a slap upside the head, but not a pat on the back.

Often when confrunted by people who stereotype particular "ghetto" behavior/values(for lack of a better term) as Black. I ask..."What does that have to do with Africa?"

The silence I receive in response never fails to amaze me.---Oshun Auset

I agree.

I receive the same silence when I ask, 'What does 'blackness' have to do with African America.

Everyone's perception of 'blackness' seems to be very individual.

Organized bewilderment.

Unified confusion.

PEACE

Jim Chester

"Black"
Recently I've began to stray from that analytical distinction. The distinguishing characteristic of "race" was never an issue until caucasians needed a crafty way to dissect humanity. Now today we embrace the term black as one of endearment. We've replaced our systematically holistic thinking with one of which we can hardly adjust too. That's why everyother decade we're coming up with a new name or term for our race/"breed"/identity. We want to claim ourselves and name ourselves as if we are still struggling to belong to ourselves.

Blackness has now become a term that follows the philosophy of individualism. It's a contradiction at best. We want to disunite from societal constraints made by the majority, by holding on to our implied, and set characteristics of "blackness", and at the same time expect unity from one another. We are bold proclaimers of Seperatism and Nationalism, and yet we still make time to point out inequalities and predjudices in our spare time. I advocate Seperatism and Nationalism as a Means. I know of most that view it as an End. For instance, I feel like if we had not integretated, and we worked on maintaing Seperate and forced our consciousness and focus on (but) Equal, we would be much more frutiful Today. Our "breed" (I hope everyone else is as disgusted with this term as I am) wouldn't have been under such a heavy and intense microscope, and we would be able to devote ourselves to reaping the benefit of our contributions.

Instead we labor on social detachment. "I don't do this or that because that's white" "I don't act like this...because..." If we don't fit a certain criteria of "blackness", then we are "sell-outs". Alot of American Africans see this error and do their best to align themselves with what's socially "right". Unfortunately for psychotics like that, consciousness becomes a nuisance or pest that needs to be exterminated.

I say we don't embrace our race. We should embrace consciousness.

EbonyRose, babygirl, there's nothing to disagree on. I understand your views just as you understand mine. On the other hand, with Clarence Thomas--damn--even I have my limitations, Ebony. I can't see the good in Clarence at all. They may as well have appointed another white man in that position.

quote:

Often when confrunted by people who stereotype particular "ghetto" behavior/values(for lack of a better term) as Black. I ask..."What does that have to do with Africa?"

The silence I receive in response never fails to amaze me.---Oshun Auset

I agree.

I receive the same silence when I ask, 'What does 'blackness' have to do with African America.

Everyone's perception of 'blackness' seems to be very individual.

What a bunch of bullshit. The only reason why you get silence in response to that biased question you made is because people with common sense know that no matter what kind of definition of blackness they present to you, you're going to waste page after page of your asinine opinions as to why you think they are wrong, and tack on some other bourgie, haughty, open-ended question or statement to go along with it.

There's no need to get all metaphysical and philosophical on such a trite topic. There are two conceptions of blackness. One is the definition that implies the behavior of a nigger, and the other implies the behavior of a black person.

quote:

There are two conceptions of blackness. One is the definition that implies the behavior of a nigger, and the other implies the behavior of a black person.

This must be an attempt to provoke a confrontation because there is no way you are this dumb. Or maybe you had a little to much to drink?

What exact makes the "behavior" of a person who is Black a descriptive and definitive idea of what the concept of "Blackness" is?

This Chris Rock shit will get your feelings hurt.

There's a certain "behavior" the Last Poets talked about (read: FEAR - i.e. "SCARED OF...") that was definitive of ALL NIGGERS. Seems like it includes a bunch of those IRONHORSE would put into the category of "the behavior of a Black person".

Seems like that's the exact behavior, the Anti-LAST POETS behavior, the NIGGERS ARE SCARED behavior that IronHorse embraces, promotes and cherish.

So who really is a NIGGER?
What about the Michael Eric Dyson Niggers?