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quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
Empty Purnata....

There are all types of Gangs, that DESTROY lives every day....and get away with it.

Political gangs, corporate gangs, etc etc.

To me, these Gangs are no better than the so called gang Tookie help to organize.


Shhhhh, qty226, don't want anyone to find out.

Especially the "gang" in "D.C."(District of Criminalls).
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
IMHO, that's a way of helping the White Establishment destroy the Black Community within.
How is it that you separate "Gang Culture" and the culture of oppression?

How is it that Gang Culture becomes a wholly independent actor as if it is self-created and not a product of American Society?

The fact that there were Gangsters and Gang Culture in other ethnic groups ought to be enough for anyone serious to take a more nuanced view. Just MHO.


I said it's a creation of the White Establishment. I didn't say it was an independent creation.

"A product of the White Establishment" means that it's a product of institutionalized racism, poverty, and internalized self-worthlessness reinforced by Amerikkkan society.

No one is saying that Gang Culture is intrinsic to African-America (that's why I called it "Black" Gang Culture eleswhere in the forum), but since gang culture affects us too, we should try to solve it by demolishing the things that create it: White Supremacist Establishment, poverty and internalized self-hatered.
quote:
originally posted by Empty Purnata--I'd say that White Amerikkka is FAAAAR more ignorant than Black America.

Many African-Americans are ignorant out of self-entanglement (many of us are too wrapped up in our own problems to look at those of others). White Americans are ignorant because they don't want to know the truth outside of the RHETORIC and lies they have been told. It would tear their picture of reality apart.


Have you seen this commercial where a middle-class White woman who doesn't believe that AIDS is a major problem is exposed to it and has a painful epiphany? That's what the average White Amurikkkan would do if they were forced to look at reality, bury their face in their hands and shake their heads in disbelief like, "OMG, I've been lied to!"

Ignorance is bliss, especially if that ignorance keeps you on top of the throats of other people.


IMHO--White folks have studied and continue to study blaq folks before any action is ever made/taken.

--We are truly the ones 'collective' that are literally in the d-a-r-k...!
Tookie may have been a lot of things, but smart was not one of them. From Arnold:


The dedication of Williams' book "Life in Prison" casts significant doubt on his
personal redemption. This book was published in 1998, several years after
Williams' claimed redemptive experience. Specifically, the book is dedicated to
"Nelson Mandela, Angela Davis, Malcolm X, Assata Shakur, Geronimo Ji Jaga
Pratt, Ramona Africa, John Africa, Leonard Peltier, Dhoruba Al-Mujahid, George
Jackson, Mumia Abu-Jamal, and the countless other men, women, and youths who
have to endure the hellish oppression of living behind bars." The mix of
individuals on this list is curious. Most have violent pasts and some have been
convicted of committing heinous murders, including the killing of law
enforcement.


But the inclusion of George Jackson on this list defies reason and is a significant
indicator that Williams is not reformed and that he still sees violence and
lawlessness as a legitimate means to address societal problems.

(George Jackson was a militant activist and prison inmate who founded the violent Black Guerilla Family prison
gang. Jackson was charged with the murder of a San Quentin correctional officer. In 1970, when Jackson was out
to court in Marin County on the murder case, his brother stormed the courtroom with a machine gun, and along with
Jackson and two other inmates, took a judge, the prosecutor and three others hostage in an escape attempt. Shooting
broke out. The prosecutor was paralyzed from a police bullet, and the judge was killed by a close-range blast to his
head when the shotgun taped to his throat was fired by one of Jackson's accomplices. Jackson's brother was also
killed. Then, three days before trial was to begin in the correctional officer murder case, Jackson was gunned down
in the upper yard at San Quentin Prison in another foiled escape attempt on a day of unparalleled violence in the
prison that left three officers and three inmates dead in an earlier riot that reports indicate also involved Jackson.)
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
yep..and an Asian chick gets probation for shooting a little black girl in the back of the head....some black people work to devalue themselves....because they do not see themselves as equal to whites....that is apparent from some of the so-called blacks in here...who want to hang blacks for passing gas....but will let a white man rape their mama and tell her to just lay back and enjoy it.......I see why I do not affiliate myself with some people, even though they are supposedly black.....I guess they mean in color only and definitely not mindset......I wonder if they'll put bush on trial for war crimes one day...many feel that it damn sure is warranted.......just like tookie's pending execution.....


*read my lips.....no one said shit about the case I described above...I guess black life is to be devalued.......damn...now I see why black people are not that damn patriotic...for what? unequal treatment across the board?
--Hmmm. Even an educated-caged black male is a threat...!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
George Jackson: Black Revolutionary
By Walter Rodney, November 1971.
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/index-beb.html

George Jackson, like Malcolm X before him, educated himself painfully behind prison bars to the point where his clear vision of historical and contemporary reality and his ability to communicate his perspective frightened the U.S. power structure into physically liquidating him.
quote:
I said it's a creation of the White Establishment. I didn't say it was an independent creation.

"A product of the White Establishment" means that it's a product of institutionalized racism, poverty, and internalized self-worthlessness reinforced by Amerikkkan society.

You never said any of that while talking to me.

YOU SAID:
  • He has led to one of the most detrimental aspects of the Black Community today: GANG CULTURE.
  • He was a premier internal architect of one of Black America's worst modern poisons...
  • He DID help create Gang Culture in the Black Community...

    The closest thing you said that matches what you're saying now was directed towards qty226, not me:
    These gangs act as the internal hand of destrution of the White Establishment.

    But after that, you continued in your initial vain:
  • He helped create one of the worst self-destructive behaviors in the Black Community today: Gang Culture... IMHO, that's a way of helping the White Establishment destroy the Black Community within.

    Hmmm.... Doesn't sound like you communicated that something you continually called, flatly, the creation of Tookie, etc. and something that merely functions as a "help" to the White Establishment was indeed a product of the White Establishment in your view.

    At best you said "gangs ACT as the internal hand"... That does not amount to you saying they are a product thereof. Just be honest. That's all I've said all along. Just be honest.

    quote:
    No one is saying that Gang Culture is intrinsic to African-America (that's why I called it "Black" Gang Culture eleswhere in the forum), but since gang culture affects us too, we should try to solve it by demolishing the things that create it: White Supremacist Establishment, poverty and internalized self-hatered.
    Well, first, "elsewhere in the forum" has no bearing here because you have not articulated the same thing here. No notes denoting any such "BLACK" gang culture; you just said GANG CULTURE here which is what I'm responding to.

    And this "solve it by demolishing things that create it" is a bit disingenuous too. You're ambivalent about the role, as small as it may be, that Tookie, e.g., could play in it. Instead, you were so narrowly focused on the value of his individual life and not what he could do to demolishing the one aspects he was personally responsible for and has insights which I dare say you and I don't.

    Anyway... I can't read your mind nor am I suppose to know everything you've written on the topic. What I do have to go on is what you write here.
  • quote:
    This is a huge black man , head of one the roughest street gangs in America, when you put this in front of a 95% white jury , they automatically gonna say this man must have done it look at him. No hard evidence has been found. No gun, no blood, no photo of him at the scene, no finger prints, just someones TESTIMONY. Someone heard him laughing about it, heard him admit it, but no evidence. i mean whats wrong with life in prison, especially if he can save one life , isnt that worth it. But people want to play god, My question is who would volunteer to pull the switch.If you believe in higher being would you be comfortable killing another person in the name of justice sponsored by the state. In this case everyone loses, the Victims, their family,the countless number of people that has been affected by Tookies writings. But here we are at the last hours before a man is excuted by a country that has over 2 million prisoners, more people on death row than any other country in the world. Also to add a side note, who knows about the Iran Contra, or the Move in the 60's to flood the ghettos of Oakland and LA with dope, there is a bigger picture here and Tookie Williams is the scapegoat, the posterboy for thuglife and crime, when actuallity we live in a society the loves murder, drugs, corruption and mayhem.

    ---------------------------------------------

    And even Black people still can't get it in their heads that he was not executed for ANYTHING he did to anybody Black.

    Black people in this country want to live in denial of how prevailent it is to railroad Black people to prison based on shady evidence, not evidence, sensationalization of defendents, racist jury verdicts, hearsay evidence; my only prayer for Black people who think like this is that I hope they are never put on trial for anything, because that is the only time that people who think like this will actually see that it does not matter whether you are guilty or not, but whether or not you luck out with an intelligent jury, or a non-biased jury, or a prosecutor who is not aspiring up some political ladder, a non-biased judge.

    But what can you expect as we live in a country that has systematically imprisoned Blacks and other people of color purely out of racsism, politics, and for profit, yet only a few of us will raise any amount of hell about it;

    What can you expect from Black people in America when since Katrina, actually are making statements like, "I don't understand why. . ." and "I don't know why I was treated that way . . ."

    Not to mention the number of Black people in this country that will bring through their teeth that they don't think that the Katrina incident was racial----they have these braindead yes'am/yes'sa niggers sitting on the jury wrongly aiding and abeiting other Black people's fate.

    What do they have to do to get us ALL to wake up in this country, round us all up like cattle and march us all into gas chambers like Hitler did the Jew?
    quote:
    Originally posted by ZAKAR:

    All everyone is saying is he is a Co founder of the Crips street gang.

    ...all types of dealings go on on the lower and mid levels without the top guys ever knowing about it, But when it hits the fan everyone can identify Tookie ...he is the face of the gang. But i submit to you, what if he didnt actually do the crime.

    ...when you put this in front of a 95% white jury, they automatically gonna say this man must have done it look at him.

    No hard evidence has been found. No gun, no blood, no photo of him at the scene, no finger prints, just someones TESTIMONY.

    ...a bigger picture here and Tookie Williams is the scapegoat, the posterboy for thuglife and crime,...


    The charges were not that he was "Co founder of the Crips street gang.". It is immoral to condone state-sanctioned murder of convicts for crimes with which they were not charged, especially in light of the many cases similar.

    Death Row Exonerees Convicted w/out Physical Evidence
    • 3. Wilbert Lee Florida Conviction 1963 Pardoned 1975
      4. Freddie Pitts Florida Conviction 1963 Pardoned 1975
      Although no physical evidence linked them to the deaths of two white men, Lee and Pitts' guilty pleas, the testimony of an alleged eyewitness, and incompetent defense counsel led to their convictions. The men were sentenced to death but maintained their innocence. ... The men were granted a new trial (Pitts v. State 247 So.2d 53 (Fla. 1971)) but were again convicted and sentenced to death. They were released in 1975 when they received a full pardon ...(Florida Times-Union, 4/23/98).

    • 20. Ernest (Shujaa) Graham California Convicted 1976 Acquitted 1981
      In November 1973, while incarcerated in a state prison facility, Ernest Graham and co-defendant Eugene Allen were charged with killing a state correctional officer. Graham's first trial resulted in a mistrial when the jury could not agree on a verdict. Graham was sentenced to death in 1976 after his second trial. The Supreme Court of California reversed the conviction because prosecutors improperly used their peremptory challenges to exclude prospective jurors who were black. Graham and Allen, who are both black, "belonged to the group whose members the district attorney had excluded whereas the alleged victim was a member of the group to which [all] of the remaining jurors belong." (People v. Allen, 590 P.2d 30, 34 (Cal.1979) (internal citations omitted)). Graham's third trial ended in another hung jury, and he was acquitted by the jury in his fourth trial. (Phone conversation with now Magistrate-Judge James Larson, October 6, 2003, who represented Graham).

    • 32. Juan Ramos Florida Conviction 1983 Acquitted 1987
      Despite a jury recommendation of life in prison, Juan Ramos was sentenced to death for rape and murder. No physical evidence linked Ramos to the victim or the scene of the crime. The Florida Supreme Court granted Ramos a new trial because of the prosecution's improper use of evidence. At retrial, Ramos was acquitted. (Ramos v. State, 496 So.2d 121 (Fla. 1986) and St. Petersburg Times, 7/9/99)

    • 40. James Richardson Florida Conviction 1968 Acquitted 1989
      Richardson was convicted and sentenced to death for the poisoning of one of his children. The prosecution argued that Richardson committed the crime to obtain insurance money, despite the fact that no such policy existed. The primary witnesses against Richardson were two jail-house snitches whom Richardson was said to have confessed to. ...Richardson's conviction was overturned after further investigation ... (Richardson v. State, 546 So.2d 1037 (1989).

    • 47. Charles Smith Indiana Conviction 1983 Acquitted 1991
      Smith was sentenced to death for a street robbery and murder of a woman. The man who claimed to be the getaway driver had his charges dropped in exchange for testifying against Smith. The Indiana Supreme Court overturned his conviction in 1989 ... (Smith v. State, 547 N.E.2d 817 (Ind. 1989). He was acquitted at his re-trial and released in 1991 ... (information not available at time of DPIC's innocence report) (The Journal-Gazette (Indiana), 5/10/91 and Capitol Report, May/June 1991)

    • 83. Warren Douglas Manning South Carolina Convicted 1989 Acquitted 1999
      Manning was convicted in 1989 for the slaying of a South Carolina police officer in 1988. The conviction was overturned in 1991 (State v. Manning, 409 S.E.2d 372 (SC 1991)). Manning was retried in 1993, but the case ended in a mistrial. Manning's third trial in 1995 resulted in another conviction, but it was overturned on December 29, 1997, when the South Carolina Supreme Court held that the trial court abused its discretion ... (State v. Manning, 495 S.E.2d 191 (SC 1997)). The subsequent trial was declared a mistrial, and prosecutors pursued the case a fifth time. In 1999, at his last trial, Manning was represented by expert death penalty attorney, David Bruck. Manning maintained that although he had been arrested by the officer for driving under license suspension, Manning escaped when the officer stopped another car. The state's case was entirely circumstantial, and the jury acquitted Manning after less than 3 hours of deliberation. (Morning News (South Carolina), 10/1/00).
    quote:
    Originally posted by sunnubian:

    quote:
    This is a huge black man , head of one the roughest street gangs in America, when you put this in front of a 95% white jury , they automatically gonna say this man must have done it look at him. No hard evidence has been found. No gun, no blood, no photo of him at the scene, no finger prints, just someones TESTIMONY. Someone heard him laughing about it, heard him admit it, but no evidence. i mean whats wrong with life in prison, especially if he can save one life , isnt that worth it. But people want to play god, My question is who would volunteer to pull the switch.If you believe in higher being would you be comfortable killing another person in the name of justice sponsored by the state. In this case everyone loses, the Victims, their family,the countless number of people that has been affected by Tookies writings. But here we are at the last hours before a man is excuted by a country that has over 2 million prisoners, more people on death row than any other country in the world. Also to add a side note, who knows about the Iran Contra, or the Move in the 60's to flood the ghettos of Oakland and LA with dope, there is a bigger picture here and Tookie Williams is the scapegoat, the posterboy for thuglife and crime, when actuallity we live in a society the loves murder, drugs, corruption and mayhem.

    ---------------------------------------------

    And even Black people still can't get it in their heads that he was not executed for ANYTHING he did to anybody Black.

    Black people in this country want to live in denial of how prevailent it is to railroad Black people to prison based on shady evidence, not evidence, sensationalization of defendents, racist jury verdicts, hearsay evidence; my only prayer for Black people who think like this is that I hope they are never put on trial for anything, because that is the only time that people who think like this will actually see that it does not matter whether you are guilty or not, but whether or not you luck out with an intelligent jury, or a non-biased jury, or a prosecutor who is not aspiring up some political ladder, a non-biased judge.

    But what can you expect as we live in a country that has systematically imprisoned Blacks and other people of color purely out of racsism, politics, and for profit, yet only a few of us will raise any amount of hell about it;

    What can you expect from Black people in America when since Katrina, actually are making statements like, "I don't understand why. . ." and "I don't know why I was treated that way . . ."

    Not to mention the number of Black people in this country that will bring through their teeth that they don't think that the Katrina incident was racial----they have these braindead yes'am/yes'sa niggers sitting on the jury wrongly aiding and abeiting other Black people's fate.

    What do they have to do to get us ALL to wake up in this country, round us all up like cattle and march us all into gas chambers like Hitler did the Jew?


    I'd enjoy reading a response to the above from someone who agreed with Tookie's execution.
    quote:
    Originally posted by ddouble:

    I'll be curious to see what his last words will be.


    A Newsweek article published on MSN reported that technicians fumbled for 12 minutes trying to insert an intravenous needle to introduce the poison that would stop his heart. Witnesses reported that Williams grew frustrated and eventually raised his head and asked his executioners if they needed help finding a vein.

    I hope these last words satisfy your curiosity.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10450624/site/newsweek/
    Wow, you've really been on my case lately.

    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    You never said any of that while talking to me.

    YOU SAID:
  • He has led to one of the most detrimental aspects of the Black Community today: GANG CULTURE.
  • He was a premier internal architect of one of Black America's worst modern poisons...
  • He DID help create Gang Culture in the Black Community...

    The closest thing you said that matches what you're saying now was directed towards qty226, not me:
    These gangs act as the internal hand of destrution of the White Establishment.


  • Yes, gang culture was created externally by the Establishment, and then innovated on interally by African-Americans suffering from poverty, grim hopelessness and frustration.

    Poverty (which is an external creation) is the root cause of gangs and crime in the Black Community. The White Establishment uses people inside our community to destroy us from within.

    Why do you think the media promotes Gang culture so much? They want it to continue.

    quote:
    But after that, you continued in your initial vain:
  • He helped create one of the worst self-destructive behaviors in the Black Community today: Gang Culture... IMHO, that's a way of helping the White Establishment destroy the Black Community within.

    Hmmm.... Doesn't sound like you communicated that something you continually called, flatly, the creation of Tookie, etc. and something that merely functions as a "help" to the White Establishment was indeed a product of the White Establishment in your view.


  • Tookie was only an internal creator (the ground-level creator) of gang culture. It was already in place at the goverment, economic and social level (White violence against Minorities).

    I only blame Tookie for being a pawn. He only "created" it as a street-level (the lowest level), but that was the only place left it needed to spread to. That's how I see what he did as being a pawn of the System. However, he was only a pawn, the Establishment is the true Devil in this situation.

    quote:
    At best you said "gangs ACT as the internal hand"... That does not amount to you saying they are a product thereof. Just be honest. That's all I've said all along. Just be honest.


    Something can be a product and become an internal hand of an external creator. I'm not saying Gangs help the Establishment on purpose, most of their help is inadvertent due to ignorance/or not caring.

    The fact that drug pushers work for cartels that are White-owned, and White kingpens, says alot. I'm not saying these street-level pushers realize they are helping the Establishment, but they are still helping work against us, the innocent victims in the Black Community, inadvertantly. To the eyes of the Establishment, gangsters are "useful idiots" (as Lenin would say).

    quote:
    Well, first, "elsewhere in the forum" has no bearing here because you have not articulated the same thing here. No notes denoting any such "BLACK" gang culture; you just said GANG CULTURE here which is what I'm responding to.

    And this "solve it by demolishing things that create it" is a bit disingenuous too. You're ambivalent about the role, as small as it may be, that Tookie, e.g., could play in it. Instead, you were so narrowly focused on the value of his individual life and not what he could do to demolishing the one aspects he was personally responsible for and has insights which I dare say you and I don't.


    Well, when you put it that way, for that I am sorry. sad Perhaps I did get too zoomed in on the individual and not the whole issue.

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