quote:
And the reason it is so expensive is because of people like you who tie up the courts with injunctions, legal challenges and a never ending Tsunami of stay of executions. You do realize this don't you....?

great appl do you really believe that people like me have such an impact?
131 exonerations up to now, people who would probably all have been executed without this 'Tsunami'.
quote:
Originally posted by Fabulous:
quote:
Originally posted by listener:
quote:
If ever there was an appropriate case for the death penalty, this is it. Why try to dismiss the severe damage done in these circumstances by branding the reactions to this horror as merely "emotional"?

tell me please, what is your personal gain that somebody is sentenced to death instead of being sentenced to life without parole.
Why doesn't the executioner commit murder? If we assume that killing somebody who committed murder is correct, why is 'vigilante justice' considered a crime? Why should anybody be in favor that a government can sentence it's citizens to death?
It is one thing to desire the death of somebody else out of a feeling, it is something very different to demand this to be law.


And, imo, your reaction (to the death penalty) is JUST AS EMOTIONAL as those who support the death penalty. IMO, it's just as wrong to minimize other people who have lost loved ones via a violent act (murder) and support the death penalty, as it is to point a finger as if somehow 'your view' is superior or 'right' or more 'moral'.


Listener sits on another Continent .... none of her tax dollars are spent towards any part of the justice system in THIS country! Her opinions, thoughts, nor speculations can possibly have ANY impact on what goes on here. She has no concept of being Black in America, being Black, or living in America ... or how that impacts the Black community, justice, or the individual reasons for why people feel the way they do about the subject.

She apparently has never lost a family member to a heinous act of violence, and has no children, so she can only have little, if any, comprehension of what such crimes actually DO to children who are the victims.

Her opinion can ONLY BE EMOTIONAL, as there is nothing tangible - not even her citizenship - that would give her any direct tie to even the most remote workings of the justice system in America.

And I'm not sure where she gets her information from, but there hasn't been even the slightest indication that the U.S. is on the verge of abolishing the death penalty as a matter of national law. Individual states may be curtailing their DP activities ... but, that's not even close to the same thing as abolishing the practice of it.
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
quote:
Originally posted by Kocolicious:

Those who DON'T see otherwise...have yet to lose a loved one.


This is simply not true. There are many people who have lost loved ones to murder and who do not support capitol punishment.


Yeah ... they're like the parents of some of the soldiers killed in Iraq who still supported both Bush and his decision to invade a sovereign nation who had not threatened the security of the United States ... in other words, for no reason whatsoever.


I believe that Bush supports Capitol Punishment. So your attempt to slur the families of murder victims by tying them in with Bush simply because they might disagree with you is quite dishonest.


Reading Is Fundamental, Ricardomath. Roll Eyes

I did not tie families of murder victims to Bush. I compared the mentality of families of murder victims who do not support the death penalty with the families of victims murdered in Iraq who still support the man who sent them to their death.

In this instance, we just happen to know that murderer's name.
quote:
Listener sits on another Continent .... none of her tax dollars are spent towards any part of the justice system in THIS country! Her opinions, thoughts, nor speculations can possibly have ANY impact on what goes on here. She has no concept of being Black in America, being Black, or living in America ... or how that impacts the Black community, justice, or the individual reasons for why people feel the way they do about the subject.

She apparently has never lost a family member to a heinous act of violence, and has no children, so she can only have little, if any, comprehension of what such crimes actually DO to children who are the victims.

Her opinion can ONLY BE EMOTIONAL, as there is nothing tangible - not even her citizenship - that would give her any direct tie to even the most remote workings of the justice system in America.

And I'm not sure where she gets her information from, but there hasn't been even the slightest indication that the U.S. is on the verge of abolishing the death penalty as a matter of national law. Individual states may be curtailing their DP activities ... but, that's not even close to the same thing as abolishing the practice of it.


tfro
appl
Ocatchings, you believe that human rights issues are only a national issue?
So for example, people world wide should stop sending petitions, most of all when there is serious doubt like in the case of Troy Davis. No business of the international community?

But funny how that works, this only comes up when I am not in agreement with certain members, then it's interference or European arrogance or racism or something like that. Interesting 19
quote:
Originally posted by listener:
Ocatchings, you believe that human rights issues are only a national issue?
Nope

So for example, people world wide should stop sending petitions, most of all when there is serious doubt like in the case of Troy Davis. No business of the international community?

Nope again. Is that something I said or something you assumed?

But funny how that works, this only comes up when I am not in agreement with certain members, then it's interference or European arrogance or racism or something like that. Interesting 19

Actually those thoughts never entered my mind. the subject was emotions, and her response was head on.


I have never addressed you as being a racist or arrogant or accused you of interferring with anything so don't try to lump me into whatever group fits the agenda d'jour. I treat your opinions like I do everyone elses on this board; either I agree, disagree or realize that discussion is getting nowhere and lets move on. hat
quote:
Nope again. Is that something I said or something you assumed?


it sounds that way, you agree with that:

quote:
Listener sits on another Continent .... none of her tax dollars are spent towards any part of the justice system in THIS country! Her opinions, thoughts, nor speculations can possibly have ANY impact on what goes on here. She has no concept of being Black in America, being Black, or living in America ... or how that impacts the Black community, justice, or the individual reasons for why people feel the way they do about the subject.

She apparently has never lost a family member to a heinous act of violence, and has no children, so she can only have little, if any, comprehension of what such crimes actually DO to children who are the victims.

Her opinion can ONLY BE EMOTIONAL, as there is nothing tangible - not even her citizenship - that would give her any direct tie to even the most remote workings of the justice system in America.

And I'm not sure where she gets her information from, but there hasn't been even the slightest indication that the U.S. is on the verge of abolishing the death penalty as a matter of national law. Individual states may be curtailing their DP activities ... but, that's not even close to the same thing as abolishing the practice of it.
quote:
Originally posted by listener:

But funny how that works, this only comes up when I am not in agreement with certain members, then it's interference or European arrogance or racism or something like that. Interesting 19


Actually, this only comes up in discussion about the death penalty ... and the reason is because of ALL of the reasons you just stated ... and then some!! Eek (Maybe OC is too nice to say that ... but I don't have that problem! Smile)

You posted a story recently about the fact that Europe doesn't address its racial/racist problems even though something like 85% of minorities there feel like they are discriminated against and oppressed.

Yet you don't miss an opportunity to point your finger at the 'emotional immaturity' of (certain) citizens in THIS country because they feel like GUILTY, convicted murders and child abusers should be punished for their crimes.

You need to GET YOUR OWN DAMN HOUSE IN ORDER before complaining about the mess in someone else's!!

Ms. Fab was absolutely right about you thinking that your opinion is: "somehow 'your view' is superior or 'right' or more 'moral'." It's a historical fact with you people ... especially those of you STILL on the Continent!! Eek

I would love to stop pointing out your white supremacist-type superiority attitude .... if only you would stop showing it in bright *neon-light display* every time this subject is brought up!

Your opinion is just that, listener ... no better or worse than anybody else's. And your country's "emotional instability" makes you no better than whatever issues the United States is struggling with, either. Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by listener:
quote:
That said.... if you feel 'discussion' is such a waste a time (when folk disagree with you), why visit a discussion board...where the sole purpose is DISCUSSION?


I said 'many' not 'all' *snip*

You also said you were WITHDRAWING from such discussions.......same differnce, imo. *shug*

and it is not about agreement or not, certain political issues won't change or end by discussing/talking about it.

Whether it's 'certain political issues' or not...the above is the world according to you, I've seen different.

You don't get to make generalizations like that about 'everybody'.


quote:
IMHO, he should be put to death, ASAP! I don't see why taxpayers should have to foot the bill of maintaining his life.


this is now the reason, why some states consider to abolish death penalty, it's just too expensive, more expensive than life. But enough said.


So what. If they'd stop pussyfooting around and executive folk (like the man mentioned in the article), we (as in US taxpayers) will save a whoooole LOT of money.

but enough said.
froAnd it IS because of a LACK of emotion…Germany did what it did to millions of people. And it is because of a LACK of emotion, America did what it did to African slaves and Amerindians. I guess it does take some one who has no emotional/compassion to torture, maime and kill millions of people. And Massa and Germany have that in COMMON. Both participated openly in human genocide. And is probably why most serial killers are primarily WHITE with no feeling and void of any drop of emotion.. They were born with blood on their tongues! As a direct result of what their ancestors and family members have done to other people different from them. Is this "kill dna "in their GENES? Where it inspires whitefolk consciously and subconsciously to murder, maime, torture innocent people? I'm no scientists but! Their History doesn't LIE! They have been murdering people throughout their civilized and uncivilized history….and it totally understandable why some of their descendants may be against the DEATH PENALTY. Cuz if they, whitefolks, were to pay for all the deaths they caused over the years, as I said earlier it would be ONE less continent of whitefolks here on earth. i.e. Europe! And that's real. And regardless of what these whitefolks say, they cannot DENY their violent HISTORY. They cannot deny being on a kill spree for hundreds of years. They cannot deny this….not one bit. All they can do is come up here on a black message board and spew their unsubstantiated arrogance and ignore the wrong they had done and continue to do. But how the universe work is this: What goes around…..comes around. And one day….soon….payback is gonna come in avengence. Watch!

You thought the plague and civil unrest during the dark ages would have TAUGHT them…..but! Nooooooooooooo they're hardheaded and still THINK they are superior than other human beings cuz they are white and VIOLENT! Nope. Don't get it twisted. Being a neantheral doesn't mean intelligence…nor does promoting violence. Only STUPIDITY and IGNORANCE equates violence...right? Along with being mean and hateful….and think everything must be YOUR WAY cuz you have the guns…..well. You don't have the GUNS anymore. We do. Now what?

Btw: Don't think for a MOMENT….I was fooled by a certain ''wg" who pretended in the beginning to be all nice and cordial with everyone here and only wanted to understand the "black" cause while hiding behind "we are the world bullshit"…………I didn't TRUST your motivates then…..and don't nowRoll Eyes Question: Why you here? Must be YOUNG and in denial about the KILLING history of YOUR COUNTRY or must be dating a black man or sumthin sumthin....cuz usually when "they "are interracial dating that's the only TIME whitefolks want to understand the other culture way of life.....besides that, many of 'em are CLOSET racists and don't give a shyte about blackfolks and care less about the horrific injustice we have endured every since white boy stepped foot in Africa. Their[whitefolk]only interest becomes when they are lying on top/underneath or try to lay in the BED with one of us. Other than that....they are STILL the unemotional HEARTLESS zombies who have plundered and raped entire civilizations without apology….But! JMHO is all.Roll Eyes

Oh before I forget…France is famous for cutting off folks heads... Most of Europe used a torturous forms of execution....they WERE cruel and still are in many cases...so it quite convenient all of sudden for massa's children to be sooooo against the death penalty isn't it? Cuz for the most part THEY ARE STILL IN DENIAL....about the damaged they did to human beings around the world....in total denial...but what gets me is ...how focking arrogant they are about the murderous crimes they committed against humankind! I guess that's typical of "madmen"....considering their historyRoll Eyes

In addition: talking directly to YOU homegirl...look! No body was focking talking your azz in the FIRST PLACE! You brought yourself in this convo uninvited. Like you're some Queen itch or massa's Ms. Ann talkin about sumthing that clearly is totally ASINE. And for the record, I careless about your baseless and heartless opinion about the death penalty cuz [your vote don't count and]YOU live in a murderous country where killers [who murdered 8 to 9 million people]are STILL hiding somewhere in America...so YOUR unemotional souless perspective is the last opinion needed in this discussion....got that?

fro
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quote:
But funny how that works, this only comes up when I am not in agreement with certain members, then it's interference or European arrogance or racism or something like that. Interesting



fro Nope...WRONG! What it is...is ANNOYANCE! Cuz you have NO clue what the fock you're talkin' about. It is CLEAR...you have no heart, no compassion....no humility. And yet you expect us....who have all of the above to take you seriously? You. Need. To. Go. Find. A. Racist. Site. And stop tryin to squeeze your unwanted irrevelant thoughts/opinions on a BLACK forum. You need to recognize nobody gives a sweet fock what you THINK about OUR black issues. Got that? You need to move on and call it a day. Trust me.


BTW: The only interesting thing about you...is your NERVE...."gall" which is another typical "wg" behavior. And totally........sad and patheticRoll Eyesfro
quote:
LOL you realize that this statement invalidates any arguments you make about Racism, right? Probably not.........never mind.



fro How does it invalidate any arguments regarding racism? Massa and his boys' been fighting each other well before the wild wild west days. Are you kidding me? As a matter of fact, the pilgrims came here because they didn't like what the courtships were making them do in Europe. And then they came here and did the VERY same thang.

Don't you read world history? That's how massa was able to come over here and conquer the Native Indians...cuz of his violent vicious nature. Ask the Irish...the Protestants….they're the same people...right? Don't forget the Scots. And they fight each other all the time. Still doing it. So. I don't get it. This has nothing to do with racism per se and EVERYTHING to do with VIOLENCE! Wait! Racism and violence go hand in hand.....that's how massa became powerful worldwide....so it does validate what I said.

fro
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
quote:
Originally posted by Kocolicious:

Those who DON'T see otherwise...have yet to lose a loved one.


This is simply not true. There are many people who have lost loved ones to murder and who do not support capitol punishment.


Yeah ... they're like the parents of some of the soldiers killed in Iraq who still supported both Bush and his decision to invade a sovereign nation who had not threatened the security of the United States ... in other words, for no reason whatsoever.


I believe that Bush supports Capitol Punishment. So your attempt to slur the families of murder victims by tying them in with Bush simply because they might disagree with you is quite dishonest.


Reading Is Fundamental, Ricardomath. Roll Eyes

I did not tie families of murder victims to Bush. I compared the mentality of families of murder victims who do not support the death penalty with the families of victims murdered in Iraq who still support the man who sent them to their death.

In this instance, we just happen to know that murderer's name.


Are you aware of many families of murder victims who support the murderer's actions? I suspect that it is a rare phenomina.

And if it is not common, then it is difficult to maintain any such comparrison.
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
Noah..I understand what you mean about the new socialization...learned behavior 101....but the rest of this thread sound as sadistic as the whites who were calling for the head of the black man in Houston that ran the car into the water and drowned several children...while remaining mum on icidents like Susan smith deliberately driving the car into the water...but just reading some of the replies in here proves your point....blacks are the new whites indeed...incarceration is not enough nowadays....the line between how blacks and whites think narrows daily.. "sigh"....



who remained mum on the susan smith incident, Kweli? Wouldn't you have to have asked our positions on that? or at least searched the archives to know that?

The fact that this man made his daughter help him saw off mama's head doesn't sway you at all?
this is an eye-opening thread, quite revealing. With 131 persons people thought this was the right one and that it would be justice to execute them. 131 wrongful convictions are not enough to show how flawed the system of also a racist DP is. But it is the opponents of DP who are called names and are considered heartless etc.
Bye
quote:
Originally posted by listener:
this is an eye-opening thread, quite revealing. With 131 persons people thought this was the right one and that it would be justice to execute them. 131 wrongful convictions are not enough to show how flawed the system of also a racist DP is. But it is the opponents of DP who are called names and are considered heartless etc.
Bye


You said (in a previous post) you were withdrawing from such discussions, yet you keep on coming back. I find THAT revealing.

Bye? (so you say )

I don"t believe you...talk about an 'eye-opener' Roll Eyes

Note: I don't understand why some ppl bother announcing a withdrawal from the discussion, when they have no intentions of doing so. There's something very dishonest about that, imho, of course.
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
Noah..I understand what you mean about the new socialization...learned behavior 101....but the rest of this thread sound as sadistic as the whites who were calling for the head of the black man in Houston that ran the car into the water and drowned several children...while remaining mum on icidents like Susan smith deliberately driving the car into the water...but just reading some of the replies in here proves your point....blacks are the new whites indeed...incarceration is not enough nowadays....the line between how blacks and whites think narrows daily.. "sigh"....



who remained mum on the susan smith incident, Kweli? Wouldn't you have to have asked our positions on that? or at least searched the archives to know that?

The fact that this man made his daughter help him saw off mama's head doesn't sway you at all?
Actually, that was Kevin41, not Kweli4Real (WHAT UP, K41!!).

NS, if someone has a principled opposition to the death penalty, why would seeing "this man made his daughter help him saw off mama's head... sway him"???? The reason people raised "emotional" beliefs is because of the idea that you can go from not believing in the death penalty to believing in it, for a reason that has nothing to do with principles, or policy analysis. A principled opposition to the death penalty is not an "emotional" belief. Believing in it just because your blood boils at the thought of heinous murders is an opinion one is entitled to, but fortunately that's not usually the basis of public policy.

Anyway, as for me... as you may remember, I support the general idea of a death penalty. However, I oppose the death penalty as used in this country, because it's not punishment enough. If we used the firing squad or the electric chair, then I would be in favor of the death penalty, for someone who definitely, undoubtedly did the crime. But because I believe that ANY penalty should by definition have a punishment aspect, I oppose the use of lethal injection, because I don't believe lethal injection is a punishment. A heinous murderer should not be allowed to harmlessly fall unconscious so he doesn't experience the dying. Firing squad and electric chair are the least brutal means, IMO, of executing someone while forcing them to consciously experience being killed.

But since the Supreme Court has ruled that all means of execution that require the inmate to experience the dying are unconstitutional ("cruel & unusual punishment)," then I can't support letting murderers get away scot free, by anaesthetizing them to death.

Meanwhile, Listener, there are those who do believe in the DP, but that a heightened level of proof is required. Under that formulation, those 131 wouldn't have died. But of course, if no one wants to work to prevent that, then you're right, there should be no DP. And it doesn't matter one damn bit what country you're from if you want to say it.
fro No emotion????? A policy that regulates the execution of a killer shouldn't have EMOTION? Folks have really lost their minds….and if it were a DOG/CAT being slathered[sp]in this horrific way….massa would send the NATIONAL GUARDS to catch the culpit and KILL him on the spot. So what yall saying? Animals have more RIGHTS than the victims KILLED by heartless, unemotional MURDERERS?Eek

Just cuz present day killers and past murderers killed folks cuz they themselves were VOID of emotion....doesn't mean that EMOTION should NOT be the denominator in these "morbid mind-blowin" cases. We are ALL humans….right? And we are talking about HUMAN BEINGS...right? And these policies are FOR? WHOM? Kermit the Frog? Please.....Roll Eyes Emotion is an element that is consistant [well should be] in all NORMAL developing human beings and the ridiculous perspective of NOT exercising the right to take folks out the way they took innocent people out is part of the many reasons why we continue to have gangbanger/mafia type folks who can shot a person point blank in the face and feel nothing! Why? Cuz there is no consequences for that cruel behavior..... and we the community of the victims suppose to NOT be emotional about that injustice? What?????? And to say that emotion does not play a part either way in terms of the Death Penalty is....ASINE and totally ludicrous.

And yes, it does MATTER what country one derives with such a pathetic unrealistic mindset....cuz that's WHERE the perspective of emotional less cold-blooded killings come fromRoll Eyes And if a country, and/or a CONTINENT has a historical i.e. legacy record of murdering i.e. conquering innocent people for power and control....then it DOES MAKE A focking DIFFERENCE! Cuz again....that's WHERE the behavior originatedRoll Eyes And no matter how expensive the word.....the reality is if you deliberately take a life or if you just MURDER just to get your rocks off....then your deserving punishment MUST be DEATH. Bottom line. Any less is a reflection of folks being in TOTAL denial regarding their participation or lack of.

BTW: As I said before this theory of NO DEATH PENATY for murderous acts are coming for those whose family members or ancestor have participated in human genocide. And they are AFRAID that if the DEATH PENALTY is implemented rightly so....they would have to worry about it reaching back to their family members retroactively. Cuz in America alone many African slaves, former slaves and African Americans were killed/murdered by the hands of the KKK during, before and after the Jim Crow days…..as in Germany where many they say MILLIONS of innocent folks were MURDERED by the hands of the Nazi. These are the SAME focking people and is why "they"and their family members are sooooo against the DEATH PENALTY. Cuz if there is a group of people who NEED to be put to DEATH for the outrageous crimes they have COMMITTED for too many years to mention: it's THEM. In other words: they have been getting away with MURDER for generations! And if there are those of you who can't see it that way…..I suggest you START READING A WORLD HISTORY BOOK. And come back and talk to me. Some blacfolks are toooooooo forgiving about the CRIME committed against us....just to blend in. Well...I'm not forgiving.....it's TIME for the big payback. Whitefolks DON'T get to minimize what they have done to usnono And walk away without true ramifications....if the shoe was on the other foot...it would be a different focking story.....And that's realsck

fro
quote:
She apparently has never lost a family member to a heinous act of violence, and has no children, so she can only have little, if any, comprehension of what such crimes actually DO to children who are the victims.


Thank you. This says it all. These people who whine and bleat about the death penalty have never been to a heinous crime scene. They have never had to go to a morgue to claim the battered remains of a small child that was violently sexually molested and murdered. They have never waited and waited and waited for their daughter or husband to come home not realizing that they never will. To them, it's just a moral abstract of why take another life when one was taken. The anguish, bitterness, deep crippling grieving of having a love one senselessly murdered is something they are incapable of comprehending nor sympathizing with. Their allegiance is with the perpetrators who made a conscious decision to end someone’s life -not the helpless victims and their families. They never seem to believe nor understand how the lives of the victims’ relatives and loved ones have been altered forever. But it doesn’t matter to them. No. Not at all. Just keep the serial killers and murderers alive so they can feel good about themselves. This is the mindset that they will never openly admit to nor acknowledge.
quote:
But funny how that works, this only comes up when I am not in agreement with certain members, then it's interference or European arrogance or racism or something like that. Interesting


I don't think race has anything to do with it. No one is accusing you being racist or arrogant (at least I'm not). I don't know enough about you to make such an inference. But there is a deep cavern of disagreement between Americans and Europeans with regards to the death penalty. I'm very aware of the Europeans soft stance on the death penalty and their criminal sentencing laws (especially rape). I respect your concerns (and some are valid) but I do disagree with you and your fellow Europeans on this particular subject. And yes, I am aware of individuals being exonerated for capital crimes. But I think there is some leeway with the application of the death penalty in some cases. Just tryin' to be civil and fair about this.......
quote:
Originally posted by Xeon:But there is a deep cavern of disagreement between Americans and Europeans with regards to the death penalty. I'm very aware of the Europeans soft stance on the death penalty and their criminal sentencing laws (especially rape). I respect your concerns (and some are valid) but I do disagree with you and your fellow Europeans on this particular subject. And yes, I am aware of individuals being exonerated for capital crimes. But I think there is some leeway with the application of the death penalty in some cases. Just tryin' to be civil and fair about this.......


Well said. Thank you for bringing class back to this discussion.
fro Like you define/dictate what's CLASS or what isn't! Please.....climb off that broken pedastal...you're about to fall againRoll Eyes And pull up your panties while you're at it....that's definitely not classy! Cuz for the most part, nobody wanna see it. GeezRoll Eyes Can't go no where and have a grow up conversation....without constant interruption by immature folks who always scoutin' for "d" and THINK no one on this board is smart enough to NOTICE. Now that's what you call an unclass act! sck

BTW: don't start none....won't be none. fro
Originally posted Xeon:
quote:
Thank you. This says it all. These people who whine and bleat about the death penalty have never been to a heinous crime scene. They have never had to go to a morgue to claim the battered remains of a small child that was violently sexually molested and murdered. They have never waited and waited and waited for their daughter or husband to come home not realizing that they never will. To them, it's just a moral abstract of why take another life when one was taken. The anguish, bitterness, deep crippling grieving of having a love one senselessly murdered is something they are incapable of comprehending nor sympathizing with. Their allegiance is with the perpetrators who made a conscious decision to end someone's life -not the helpless victims and their families. They never seem to believe nor understand how the lives of the victims' relatives and loved ones have been altered forever. But it doesn't matter to them. No. Not at all. Just keep the serial killers and murderers alive so they can feel good about themselves. This is the mindset that they will never openly admit to nor acknowledge.



fro appl appl Now that my friend.....is WELL SAIDtfro Couldn't have phrased any better! Excellent commentary!

fro
quote:
Originally posted by Kocolicious:
fro Like you define/dictate what's CLASS or what isn't! Please.....climb off that broken pedastal...you're about to fall againRoll Eyes And pull up your panties while you're at it....that's definitely not classy! Cuz for the most part, nobody wanna see it. GeezRoll Eyes Can't go no where and have a grow up conversation....without constant interruption by immature folks who always scoutin' for "d" and THINK no one on this board is smart enough to NOTICE. Now that's what you call an unclass act! sck

BTW: don't start none....won't be none. fro


Yeah, what a hypocrite.

and the nerve to suggest a moderator for wayward discussions Roll Eyes OBVIOUSLY, 'wayward' doesn't apply to the negativity 'she' spews. Roll Eyes

typical WG behavior. Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by Xeon:
quote:
She apparently has never lost a family member to a heinous act of violence, and has no children, so she can only have little, if any, comprehension of what such crimes actually DO to children who are the victims.


Thank you. This says it all. These people who whine and bleat about the death penalty have never been to a heinous crime scene. They have never had to go to a morgue to claim the battered remains of a small child that was violently sexually molested and murdered. They have never waited and waited and waited for their daughter or husband to come home not realizing that they never will. To them, it's just a moral abstract of why take another life when one was taken. The anguish, bitterness, deep crippling grieving of having a love one senselessly murdered is something they are incapable of comprehending nor sympathizing with. Their allegiance is with the perpetrators who made a conscious decision to end someone’s life -not the helpless victims and their families. They never seem to believe nor understand how the lives of the victims’ relatives and loved ones have been altered forever. But it doesn’t matter to them. No. Not at all. Just keep the serial killers and murderers alive so they can feel good about themselves. This is the mindset that they will never openly admit to nor acknowledge.


I have four children and I have lost several family members to murder. Seeing my brother's muderer executed by the state wouldn't bring me any satisfaction. It would just be more senseless death. What's more, even though he's a murderer, I still wouldn't want to see his mother go through what my mother went through. We've witnessed enough horror. I don't understand why people would think that we would be eager to see more. Let him finish out his empty life in jail.
The state has the right to determine what is just for the public at large.. if the state decides that it is in the best interest of the community to forgive all murders then that is what will happen.. If it does not then it will not..

Such matters are considered case by case....

All murders are not weighed the same.. premeditated.. youth... self defense... accidents... vicious.. gruesome.. serial.. public risk.. etc... and the judicial system weighing the case is not always fair.. all of these matters should be decided... and of course there will be some cases where the public will deem it justified on the basis of their own humanitarian sensibilities... to execute a human being seen as irredeemable or whose actions are so heinous justice demands execution...
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
Noah..I understand what you mean about the new socialization...learned behavior 101....but the rest of this thread sound as sadistic as the whites who were calling for the head of the black man in Houston that ran the car into the water and drowned several children...while remaining mum on icidents like Susan smith deliberately driving the car into the water...but just reading some of the replies in here proves your point....blacks are the new whites indeed...incarceration is not enough nowadays....the line between how blacks and whites think narrows daily.. "sigh"....



who remained mum on the susan smith incident, Kweli? Wouldn't you have to have asked our positions on that? or at least searched the archives to know that?

The fact that this man made his daughter help him saw off mama's head doesn't sway you at all?
Actually, that was Kevin41, not Kweli4Real (WHAT UP, K41!!).

NS, if someone has a principled opposition to the death penalty, why would seeing "this man made his daughter help him saw off mama's head... sway him"???? The reason people raised "emotional" beliefs is because of the idea that you can go from not believing in the death penalty to believing in it, for a reason that has nothing to do with principles, or policy analysis. A principled opposition to the death penalty is not an "emotional" belief. Believing in it just because your blood boils at the thought of heinous murders is an opinion one is entitled to, but fortunately that's not usually the basis of public policy.

Anyway, as for me... as you may remember, I support the general idea of a death penalty. However, I oppose the death penalty as used in this country, because it's not punishment enough. If we used the firing squad or the electric chair, then I would be in favor of the death penalty, for someone who definitely, undoubtedly did the crime. But because I believe that ANY penalty should by definition have a punishment aspect, I oppose the use of lethal injection, because I don't believe lethal injection is a punishment. A heinous murderer should not be allowed to harmlessly fall unconscious so he doesn't experience the dying. Firing squad and electric chair are the least brutal means, IMO, of executing someone while forcing them to consciously experience being killed.

But since the Supreme Court has ruled that all means of execution that require the inmate to experience the dying are unconstitutional ("cruel & unusual punishment)," then I can't support letting murderers get away scot free, by anaesthetizing them to death.

Meanwhile, Listener, there are those who do believe in the DP, but that a heightened level of proof is required. Under that formulation, those 131 wouldn't have died. But of course, if no one wants to work to prevent that, then you're right, there should be no DP. And it doesn't matter one damn bit what country you're from if you want to say it.


Nothing much....just staying busy and trying to come up with better ideas...one can have compassion without emotions, which is what one works to satisfy by reacting in kind to savage schit they witness...the death penalty doesn't solve a damn thing...it seems as if the answer is to offer people different societal options in life so they can hopefully avoid this kind of behavior which leads to the situation we are discussing......'sigh'.....
Originally posted by Malik:
quote:

I have four children and I have lost several family members to murder. Seeing my brother's muderer executed by the state wouldn't bring me any satisfaction. It would just be more senseless death. What's more, even though he's a murderer, I still wouldn't want to see his mother go through what my mother went through. We've witnessed enough horror. I don't understand why people would think that we would be eager to see more. Let him finish out his empty life in jail.


froTo each his own in terms of how you want to see justice for your loved one. And my heart goes out to you and your family for your permanent losses. Every one mourns and seek closure differently. And like you, I have had family members MURDERED by animals including losing one of my children. And when you lose a child to this senseless type of act that's really when ALL BETS are off. The big question becomes....who will BE that child's voice? Cuz it is our responsibility to protect our children and when some sick son of bitch stalks and kills one of em by emptying the gun in his/her head. Then what? How will YOU as a parent make sure this NEVER happens to another family? Do you just stand there and say...."oh this something that he/she will have to live with" or do you CONSCIOUSLY do everything in your power to ensure this type of meanness is reduced in your community by supporting the death penalty? It's a VERY hard call. But I guess that's difference between you and me....cuz I WANT TO SEE those animals put to death. That's what one does when a dog/bear mauls or kills a human....right? So in my view, when a person deliberately in cold blood KILLS an unsuspecting victim [child or adult] he/she i.e. that "murderer" converted from human to animal which makes the punishment of DEATH appropriate and just.

And how do we know as family members saying that it would be a senseless death of the killers is what the one killed would say? How would he or she want their death revenged? Are we as a society becoming more and more soft or afraid? And because of whatever it is curently the killers have MORE human rights than the decendant[sp]. I say if you do the deed...then you must receive it as well. But! As I said before that's how I see it. This not reflection of your position or pain. And as for the killer living an empty /void life, the killer was obviously living that empty void life in the first place...had to be in order to participate in such a horrific irreversible act. And taking his/her life will ensure no other family will have to go through this unnecessary agony.

Additionally, it makes no sense to house, feed and provide "care" for an animal who could not PROVIDE that same consideration to the person he/she executed. That's like rewarding the crime and punishing the victim. That's not fairness or justice to the dead, family members or taxpayers. Cuz that money to take care of the murderer could go to intervention programs to prevent barbaric behavior in the future. It is ridiculous to throw money away on someone who is not worth a dime or the time to write the check. What's more, it is clear that the "killers'" family were probably going through something with him/her anyway OR not effectively involved in his/her life. We all have a story to tell regarding the function or dysfunction of family life but what we DON'T get to do is KILL just cuz we had a bad day. It must be permanent consequences to helix behavior[something that will punish and deter]....otherwise we all are potential savages [evolving from humans to animals] awaiting our time to kill without conscious...and saying our loved ones who are KILLED without reason are truly worth…..nothing. I mean that's the message sent when we "forgive" the act without DEMANDING judicial consequences that fit the crime...But!

BTW: I feel your pain....everyday!
fro
quote:
Originally posted by Xeon:
quote:
She apparently has never lost a family member to a heinous act of violence, and has no children, so she can only have little, if any, comprehension of what such crimes actually DO to children who are the victims.


Thank you. This says it all. These people who whine and bleat about the death penalty have never been to a heinous crime scene. They have never had to go to a morgue to claim the battered remains of a small child that was violently sexually molested and murdered. They have never waited and waited and waited for their daughter or husband to come home not realizing that they never will. To them, it's just a moral abstract of why take another life when one was taken. The anguish, bitterness, deep crippling grieving of having a love one senselessly murdered is something they are incapable of comprehending nor sympathizing with. Their allegiance is with the perpetrators who made a conscious decision to end someone’s life -not the helpless victims and their families. They never seem to believe nor understand how the lives of the victims’ relatives and loved ones have been altered forever. But it doesn’t matter to them. No. Not at all. Just keep the serial killers and murderers alive so they can feel good about themselves. This is the mindset that they will never openly admit to nor acknowledge.



Not necessarily...some people just work to not adopt the mindset of those they find undesirable...because if they did not do so, they would say f-k the courts and take matters in their own hands.....trust me on that one...but most people tend to think other shave the mindset and emotional contraol limitations THEY possess...and that is a false premise big-time......
quote:
Originally posted by Kocolicious:

Additionally, it makes no sense to house, feed and provide "care" for an animal who could not PROVIDE that same consideration to the person he/she executed. That's like rewarding the crime and punishing the victim. That's not fairness or justice to the dead, family members or taxpayers. Cuz that money to take care of the murderer could go to intervention programs to prevent barbaric behavior in the future. It is ridiculous to throw money away on someone who is not worth a dime or the time to write the check. What's more, it is clear that the "killers'" family were probably going through something with him/her anyway OR not effectively involved in his/her life. We all have a story to tell regarding the function or dysfunction of family life but what we DON'T get to do is KILL just cuz we had a bad day. It must be permanent consequences to helix behavior[something that will punish and deter]....otherwise we all are potential savages [evolving from humans to animals] awaiting our time to kill without conscious...and saying our loved ones who are KILLED without reason are truly worth…..nothing. I mean that's the message sent when we "forgive" the act without DEMANDING judicial consequences that fit the crime...But!


thanks

I wonder if some of these people would be in such a *forgiving* or *moral* mood if they were asked to write a check each month and send it to the prison for the care and comfort of the murderer of their loved ones for the rest of that person's life?? Confused

Because, ultimately, ALL of us pay for the lives of killers and child rapists/molesters/murderers in one way or another. Roll Eyes

Some people believe it's money well-spent. Others of us don't.
Malik's post proves my point...and if faced with a similar situation, which I have come close...i would hope that I could think like that and remain above some primal urges...like the white lynch mobs used to display when a black man was accused of raping with some lying skank that wanted to give him some anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
Malik's post proves my point...and if faced with a similar situation, which I have come close...i would hope that I could think like that and remain above some primal urges...like the white lynch mobs used to display when a black man was accused of raping with some lying skank that wanted to give him some anyway.


And you know, K41 .. if that would be your desire .. I would hope the same thing for you! Smile

I have no problem with ANYONE being of the opinion that the death penalty is wrong. I respect that it is their opinion .. and they're right to have it. Nor am I trying to change ANYBODY'S opinion to mine.

Unfortunately, there are those here that can't seem to reciprocate that same type and level of respect. sck

However .. I think there's a difference between someone accused of doing a crime they probably didn't commit and a bona fide, no question about it, murderer like the man in this story who DID kill his wife and made his daughter help cut up her body! Eek

I'm a strong believer in 'an eye for an eye'. I see 'fair exchange as being no robbery.' I want to be treated just as fair and equally as I treat others. And as long as all things are fair and equal, I think that's a good thing. There is nothing *fair* nor *equal* about someone taking another person's life and then being able to live out the rest of their own. It's 'unbalanced'. And if the DP 'evens the score' ... I just don't see the problem with that. Smile
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by Kocolicious:

Additionally, it makes no sense to house, feed and provide "care" for an animal who could not PROVIDE that same consideration to the person he/she executed. That's like rewarding the crime and punishing the victim. That's not fairness or justice to the dead, family members or taxpayers. Cuz that money to take care of the murderer could go to intervention programs to prevent barbaric behavior in the future. It is ridiculous to throw money away on someone who is not worth a dime or the time to write the check. What's more, it is clear that the "killers'" family were probably going through something with him/her anyway OR not effectively involved in his/her life. We all have a story to tell regarding the function or dysfunction of family life but what we DON'T get to do is KILL just cuz we had a bad day. It must be permanent consequences to helix behavior[something that will punish and deter]....otherwise we all are potential savages [evolving from humans to animals] awaiting our time to kill without conscious...and saying our loved ones who are KILLED without reason are truly worth…..nothing. I mean that's the message sent when we "forgive" the act without DEMANDING judicial consequences that fit the crime...But!


thanks

I wonder if some of these people would be in such a *forgiving* or *moral* mood if they were asked to write a check each month and send it to the prison for the care and comfort of the murderer of their loved ones for the rest of that person's life?? Confused

Because, ultimately, ALL of us pay for the lives of killers and child rapists/molesters/murderers in one way or another. Roll Eyes

Some people believe it's money well-spent. Others of us don't.


*Never compromised my values for a dollar...if that were the case i could have played the Uncle Tom role for career advancement long ago......or slang that stuff with fools who did....but that is lazy and self-loathing in nature. i'd rather work hard and not have crimes of the conscience or a reason to always look over my shoulder. I find people interesting when they tend to think that others will respond like THEM in a given situation....not necessarily so.....hope all is kool with you.
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Some people believe it's money well-spent. Others of us don't.


fro Well....the prison system is big bucks! Another form of slavery cuz... guess how many of us are in there? More than half of us. So that's part of the reasons why so many are against it[death penalty]....that almighty dollar. "Why kill em when we can MAKE money off of 'em?" That's massa's mindset.

Although I do understand those family members who chose to move on with their lives and find comfort in the murderers dying in jail. I just don't see it that way. Mofos are STILL eating, sleeping and breathing. Why they get to do ANY of that? That's a waste of MONEY!!!! And it's ironic how the prison system isn't suffering as much as the rest of the economy....now they're losing some money but that's why some "murderers/rapists" are being set free to the horror of many communities throughout the country. But! If they had just flicked that switch on them a few years ago....we wouldn't have to worry about them being released early today....now would we? But!

fro
quote:
Originally posted by Xeon:
Thank you. This says it all. These people who whine and bleat about the death penalty have never been to a heinous crime scene.
Isn't Jesse Jackson opposed to the death penalty? Didn't he watch Dr. King get assassinated? Or does that not qualify as a "heinous" crime scene?

And are you saying that Thurgood Marshall would have changed his mind if he'd had a loved one get murdered? Do we know whether he ever did experience that?
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:

NS, if someone has a principled opposition to the death penalty, why would seeing "this man made his daughter help him saw off mama's head... sway him"???? The reason people raised "emotional" beliefs is because of the idea that you can go from not believing in the death penalty to believing in it, for a reason that has nothing to do with principles, or policy analysis.



Oh my bag, i thought that was Kweli. I gotta get more sleep.

I see what you're saying in a way, but i also believe that both positions are principled stances.

I do not support the death penalty as it has been applied since african americans are at a disadvantage and INNOCENT PEOPLE have been put to death. Nevertheless, like you, i believe if there is a clear cut case and there is no possible doubt about the guilt...then the state should proceed with the cocktail hour.

on another level, this particular case is disturbing to me because it's very likely that this will affect the child for life. what will be her ability to enter into normal relationships? to parent her own children effectively? She may turn out fine, but the odds are against her.
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
quote:
Originally posted by Xeon:
Thank you. This says it all. These people who whine and bleat about the death penalty have never been to a heinous crime scene.
Isn't Jesse Jackson opposed to the death penalty? Didn't he watch Dr. King get assassinated? Or does that not qualify as a "heinous" crime scene?

And are you saying that Thurgood Marshall would have changed his mind if he'd had a loved one get murdered? Do we know whether he ever did experience that?


One thing that I have noticed in discussions such as this is that folks tend to make alot of assumptions about the lives of those with whome they disagree.

Why do some folks imagine that those of us who oppose capitol punishment have never had loved ones murdered or kidnapped?

I don't get it. I really don't.
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
Oh my bag, i thought that was Kweli. I gotta get more sleep.

I see what you're saying in a way, but i also believe that both positions are principled stances.
You can be pro-DP in a principled way, but nobody is being principled when the only reason they are pro-DP is because they've experienced that kind of loss. If they were anti-DP before that loss, then I feel for them, and they have a right to feel as they please, but it's not correct to call that a "principled" change in opinion.

quote:
I do not support the death penalty as it has been applied since african americans are at a disadvantage and INNOCENT PEOPLE have been put to death. Nevertheless, like you, i believe if there is a clear cut case and there is no possible doubt about the guilt...then the state should proceed with the cocktail hour.

on another level, this particular case is disturbing to me because it's very likely that this will affect the child for life. what will be her ability to enter into normal relationships? to parent her own children effectively? She may turn out fine, but the odds are against her.
And keep in mind, her brain is still developing. I don't know much about neuroscience, but I'd imagine whatever effect this ordeal has on her will graft into the new neural pathways that will develop, making any psychological disorder much more difficult to resolve. She needs big-time help, immediately.

And by the way, if I can get "emotional" for a minute, this case shows why, IMO, lethal injection is just not punishment enough. If he gets the death penalty, he will peacefully fall asleep and will die painlessly and unawares. I just see him getting off scot free in that case. If they give him life in prison, the natural cause he would eventually die from (colon cancer, stroke, heart attack) will probably be a lot more painful and unpleasant than death from lethal injection.

This is really the only reason I disagree with the death penalty in this country. If they were able to bring back the firing squad... I say buck his ass down.

Funny how I develop these opinions that NOBODY -- pro- or anti-DP -- can agree with... lol
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
One thing that I have noticed in discussions such as this is that folks tend to make alot of assumptions about the lives of those with whome they disagree. Why do some folks imagine that those of us who oppose capitol punishment have never had loved ones murdered or kidnapped?

I don't get it. I really don't.


yeah

I agree. Although I depart from a blanket anti-death penalty sentiment, I'm not going to say that anti-death penalty proponents "must not" have experience loss due to a capital crime.

There are a number of national anti-death penalty advocates who have experienced loss, watched the perpetrators of the crimes get executed, and yet said that "the execution served no purpose to my family or to society." I disagree with them (in some ways), but I do respect what they have to say.

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