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I hope I don't go to long on this. I just want to address the utter garbage surrounding this "acting white" issue.

If you all don't know me, I was born in Africa (came here when I was a year old) so I'm at least partially removed from inheriting the black American experience. For the first twelve years of my life, I lived in what was probably the most whitest-mcwhitey state you can think of: North Dakota. Since the only other person of color you'd see outside college campuses were Indians, you can imagine what my upbringing must be like, especially with parents who were foreign.

Well, by seventh grade I moved to Athens, Georgia where the racial demographics have shifted considerably. Since I failed to drop the herb mentality I brought back from North Dakota, I got picked on regularly. And yes, on occasion I've been told I was "acting white".

I'm not (too) resentful though, because looking back I would have kicked my own ass for being such a herb. I was wearing a sweatshirt with a picture of a loon on it for chrissakes. And unlike today, I was pretty book smart as a kid and was placed in accelerated classes, which together made up a private school within a public school where they put all the white kids in. And I'm afraid to admit that I was attempting to identify with the white kids in those classes even though they all don't really want me.

What my point is that instead of identifying with my black brothers and sisters, I placed myself above them, either consciously or unconsciously, and tried to pursue the ways of white folks.

According to this study smart black students don't face a decrease in popularity if the school is predominantly black or if the school is predominantly white. It is only in racially mixed schools where it's customary for white kids to make up the gifted classes where you are going to find lack of popularity, or resentment, towards the smart black kids.

I say if those black kids were really smart, they would challenge and refuse to take part in the educational segregation that was taking place in that school. But I expect that they are like I was, trained monkeys looking to please their white masters. The same goes for black kids and their parents who accept vouchers to attend private schools, leaving their other black brothers and sisters behind to fend for themselves in their inadequate public schools instead of staying and trying to fix the problem for all.

The same goes for everyday situations. If you find yourself being embarrassed by black entertainers while laughing or ignoring the guys on "Jackass" or other shows, then you are acting white.

If you treat a fellow black person as an invisible man or woman when you cross paths on the street, then you are acting white.

If you dump on black rappers for all the phantom ills they have done to the community, while ignoring the violence and pathologies that regularly occurs on other venues of entertainment, and ignore the fact that at whites buy at least 60 percent of all hip-hop albums, then you are acting white.

If you demean blacks for having "illegitimate children" while failing to note that the percentage of black children living with single mothers has fallen during the last decade, then you are acting white.

If you continue to apologize for and demonize black people for the disparities and injustices that continue to plague this nation, then you, my Oreo cookie, are acting white.

Those who defend themselves say that it's not "acting white", it's "acting right". And therein lies the arrogance and scorn for black people that proves that criticism right.
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quote:
trained monkeys looking to please their white masters.


I see two aspects to this statement.

Yes, the schools designed by the palefaces are designed to psychologically contdition children to be subservient to AUTHORITY. That includes the White kids.

Are you saying the only reason to learn a subject is to plese the teacher. You can't be interested in the subject and not give a damn about the teacher?

The technology doesn't care about White people. If we want to use it to serve our purposes we have to know about it. To many Black people act as if you are not ignorant, stupid or both then you are not Black. We put social pressure on each other to sabotage ourselves.

There is no escaping using "judgement."

umbrarchist
This is just too tempting; it is like the breastfeeding debate. Here we go.

Since you have lived in the US for most of your life, you are aware that, we, American Blacks, say that we are Kings and Queens of Africa. Kings and Queens are well educated people or how could they successfuly run an empire. I am also aware that the first university in the world was in Timbuktu; a major city of the Kingdom of Nubia [correct me if I am wrong] not Greece as Europeans would have the non white world believe. Thus striving for educational advancement is not a white thing, it is the quintessential Black thing.

I grew up, much like you in Whiter than the Whitest White Town, New Jersey. Had and have two loving parents who have been married for 46 or so years. My mom worked so I attended a very integrated and progressive nursery school, never went to kindergarten, 1st grade was at the school my mother taught at in NYC, then the rules changed so I had to go to my school in NJ2nd grade until 8th grade. My first day of second grade, I ,at five, was called the N word, indeed I remember them saying look at the N and I was looking around for who they were talking about. In fact I was the only Black kid at that school from 2nd grade until 6th grade. Suffice it to say the students were the least of my problems, the teachers were the real goons, but I digress.
So my older cousins bothsides [not all] called me white girl and classmates [not all just the assholes ]called me N generally every day of school.

Of my cousins, the ones who called me white girl, well they are not doing so well in life, physically, mentally or financially. One is on crack and will not go into rehab because she does not need it, at 41 she has never held a job for more than 3 weeks, one was on heroin and just came out of rehab but he can't find a job because he is depressed he has never held a job for more than 7 months and one was on cocaine [powder not crack, she does not like smoke], she is in recovery, finally graduate from college after 12 years on and off, got a job with benefits and purchased her first home but she is addicted to her holiness church like she was addicted to cocaine, she speaks in tongues and falls out at every service, she cannot discuss the bible, it is all about what Pastor says. Of the classmates that called me N, who I bump into from time to time, none of them went to college like me let alone grad school and now they are all apologetic about what they did to me all those years ago, I guess they saw Kevin Bacon in Flatline and got scared.

Anyway, I have no intention of sending my kids to public school, which is why I work as hard as I do to earn a living, if that make me white, so be it.

I have no intention of living in the ghetto, have not done that since I was 18 months old and my parent move me out of one hell and into another as far as school was concerned. But there are intangible benefits to growing up with a backyard. But I now realize that the town I grew up in did not give me my values and mores, my parents did. Nobody would ever suggest that my parent are white, they participated actively in the Civil Rights Movement, ever heard of SNIC {Student Non-violent Coordinating Committee}. The suburban environments they place me in has shaped my personality.

My experience with my people, be it relative or classmate [Black College Grad] and my experience with white people, be it school classmate or neighbor proves one thing to me. There are people who will work to change there environment and there are people who do not.

Life is about choices, I could have chosen to let the White Girl label have a negative effect on me but I know for every Black person that calls me a White Girl, some white person, now the Cops, the Judges, the white Attorney who are racist, to the I am an N who was admitted to the bar. I cannot live my life to please either group.

This is my motto, if they do not pay my bills then they do not mean much in the overall scheme.

So let them say I am acting white because I live in a nice neighborhood, go to the Ritz Carlton for vacation [National Bar Convention] and go skiing in Canada or Colorado every year [with the National Brotherhood of Skiers] because that is what I do. If being educated says I am acting white, then the Black people who say it are showing they do not know there own history, they want the bling but don't want to put the time in [study] to position themselves to earn it, seems short sighted to me. I am pretty sure that if the people that call me white girl could live my life, they would take it in a minute. Funny you never hear middle class Black people calling rich Black people white, I wonder why that is the case. I guess I just grew up beleiveing that money was green.
Like I was speaking to on the other "acting white" thread. This is a jedi mind trick. People are too eager to equate intelligence. The issue is not whether one is acting black or white. Its about what is percieved as being this way. We have to find out where this shift in our society came from? I say that this came after the Civil Rights Movement and we lost a large percentage of black educators. The classrooms that were now "integrated" became headed by white faculty and staff in the south. In the north, this had always been the case. I will say that before civil rights, there were probably more black college educated people from the South than from the North. Once this shift happened, the level of education for Black Americans has gone to pot. As a reference I recommend reading Jonathan Kozol.
Here is what Dr. Na'im Akbar has to say about what he calls "Revolutionary Educators" (you will need RealAudio to hear this)

Think about it.....
quote:
Originally posted by umbrarchist:
quote:
trained monkeys looking to please their white masters.


I see two aspects to this statement.

Yes, the schools designed by the palefaces are designed to psychologically contdition children to be subservient to AUTHORITY. That includes the White kids.

Are you saying the only reason to learn a subject is to plese the teacher. You can't be interested in the subject and not give a damn about the teacher?

The technology doesn't care about White people. If we want to use it to serve our purposes we have to know about it. To many Black people act as if you are not ignorant, stupid or both then you are not Black. We put social pressure on each other to sabotage ourselves.

There is no escaping using "judgement."

umbrarchist


Well, that's a fair statement, but in my view there are two types of "intelligent" black folks: those who can recite the whole works of Shakespeare and can quote Jean=Paul Sartre, but have no idea who Kahlil Gibran is, and like her who aren't afraid to learn the real truths about their people.
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
So let them say I am acting white because I live in a nice neighborhood, go to the Ritz Carlton for vacation [National Bar Convention] and go skiing in Canada or Colorado every year [with the National Brotherhood of Skiers] because that is what I do. If being educated says I am acting white, then the Black people who say it are showing they do not know there own history, they want the bling but don't want to put the time in [study] to position themselves to earn it, seems short sighted to me. I am pretty sure that if the people that call me white girl could live my life, they would take it in a minute. Funny you never hear middle class Black people calling rich Black people white, I wonder why that is the case. I guess I just grew up beleiveing that money was green.


And with me, this is also tempting, but I'll pull my punches.

Still listen to you. You place yourself above less fortunate blacks, have pride that your kid doesn't attend one of "those" schools, and you flaunt your lifestyle worst than those glitzy video rappers. Yep, I'd say those are hallmarks of "acting white".

Yes, I recognize there are ignorant black folks out there, but they shouldn't be an impediment to affect change. Like I say to white folks, you don't participate in the struggle in order to expect black folks to kiss your ass or uniformly start "acting right." You do it because it's the right thing to do.
quote:
Originally posted by Yemaya:
Like I was speaking to on the other "acting white" thread. This is a jedi mind trick. People are too eager to equate intelligence. The issue is not whether one is acting black or white. Its about what is percieved as being this way. We have to find out where this shift in our society came from? I say that this came after the Civil Rights Movement and we lost a large percentage of black educators.


Quite right, even though 40 percent of school children are people of color, 86 percent of the teachers are white and middle class.

But sometimes even when the teachers are black we still get denied. I remember this one cat I had for a teacher in Athens who spends every day in class telling us what a bunch of failures we rabbit-assed black kids are, how we're more innerested in jewry than in science. Well how about teaching us the damn subject instead of giving up on us? And they wonder why so many black kids give up on school, because they give up on us.
quote:
And with me, this is also tempting, but I'll pull my punches.

Still listen to you. You place yourself above less fortunate blacks, have pride that your kid doesn't attend one of "those" schools, and you flaunt your lifestyle worst than those glitzy video rappers. Yep, I'd say those are hallmarks of "acting white".

Yes, I recognize there are ignorant black folks out there, but they shouldn't be an impediment to affect change. Like I say to white folks, you don't participate in the struggle in order to expect black folks to kiss your ass or uniformly start "acting right." You do it because it's the right thing to do.



This is way to easy, I can't believe you fell for it. swrd

The National Bar Association is the Leading Black Bar in this country, most state Black Bars are affiliate members. The National Brotherhood of Skiers is the largest ski club in the country, and it is all Black, 20,000 members strong, and yes I said the largest in the USA even white ski clubs do not get this big.

I partisipate as a Mock trial coach at a Newark High School, last year I was a coach at a Jersey City High School as well. The kids I work with want to move out of the ghetto and live a better life, they know the value of education even in thier dire circumstances. I was an advisor for the NAACP youth council for two years when I lived down the shore in Jersey. I still have my townhouse there and my parents go down on the weekend from time to time. Well, the father of one of the girls I mentored as the youth Council Advisor saw my dad and he said that because of me his daughter is now in her second year of med school, all because I told her she could do it because I did. This same little girl thought education was a white thing before she met me. I introduced her to three of my girls, all doctors one of whom grew up in the hood, she saw the light.

I am sorry that you feel bad about yourself, I because don't feel bad myself, don't feel bad about reaching for my potential.

I am sorry that you curry the favor of those less fortunate to make yourself feel Black. A good friend who got called "White Boy" told me that ghetto Black folks don't get to define what being Black means. He said that letting ghetto Black folks define us is like white people letting the folks from the trailer park or the Mountains of West Virgina define them. So I'm sayin' Yo son, seems like you have some self esteem issue that you may want to seek therapy, son. You need to check yo self before your wreck yo self. By the way "son" is a term the fella's from the bronx use"

I could go on but frankly, since you do not pay my bills, ..........."Fersure, it's like totally cool that you call me White Girl"
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quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
quote:
And with me, this is also tempting, but I'll pull my punches.

Still listen to you. You place yourself above less fortunate blacks, have pride that your kid doesn't attend one of "those" schools, and you flaunt your lifestyle worst than those glitzy video rappers. Yep, I'd say those are hallmarks of "acting white".

Yes, I recognize there are ignorant black folks out there, but they shouldn't be an impediment to affect change. Like I say to white folks, you don't participate in the struggle in order to expect black folks to kiss your ass or uniformly start "acting right." You do it because it's the right thing to do.



This is way to easy, I can't believe you fell for it. swrd

The National Bar Association is the Leading Black Bar in this country, most state Black Bars are affiliate members. The National Brotherhood of Skiers is the largest ski club in the country, and it is all Black, 20,000 members strong, and yes I said the largest in the USA even white ski clubs do not get this big.

I partisipate as a Mock trial coach at a Newark High School, last year I was a coach at a Jersey City High School as well. The kids I work with want to move out of the ghetto and live a better life, they know the value of education even in thier dire circumstances. I was an advisor for the NAACP youth council for two years when I lived down the shore in Jersey. I still have my townhouse there and my parents go down on the weekend from time to time. Well, the father of one of the girls I mentored as the youth Council Advisor saw my dad and he said that because of me his daughter is now in her second year of med school, all because I told her she could do it because I did. This same little girl thought education was a white thing before she met me. I introduced her to three of my girls, all doctors one of whom grew up in the hood, she saw the light.

I am sorry that you feel bad about yourself, I because don't feel bad myself, don't feel bad about reaching for my potential.

I am sorry that you curry the favor of those less fortunate to make yourself feel Black. A good friend who got called "White Boy" told me that ghetto Black folks don't get to define what being Black means. He said that letting ghetto Black folks define us is like white people letting the folks from the trailer park or the Mountains of West Virgina define them. So I'm sayin' Yo son, seems like you have some self esteem issue that you may want to seek therapy, son. You need to check yo self before your wreck yo self. By the way "son" is a term the fella's from the bronx use"

I could go on but frankly, since you do not pay my bills, ..........."Fersure, it's like totally cool that you call me White Girl"


yeah Nuff respect due. tongue
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
This is way to easy, I can't believe you fell for it. swrd


*grins* You make it sound like those activities you've described are almost unexpected coming from a black person in your station. But you've overcame those lack of expectations and proven your black bona fides. Here, have a cookie, you've shut me up for good. Cool

In any case, you're still separating ourselves into "us" and "the other" or as you call them "ghetto blacks." That's about as white as it gets. And also you are still defining those urban schools and enviroments as places to flee instead of places to improve. It's that elitist attitude that has got to stop.

And if I gave you the feeling that I hate myself, I apologize. Next time I'll make it damn clear that I am angry about the situation we are in and that I failed to take a stand way back when.

Still as you say, you got yours, so what the hell do I matter? But keep attending those National Brotherhood of Skiers, though, caus without them, where the hell would we be? Big Grin
Nikcara, I find it interesting that you know the business of your relatives like that, maybe your family is tight and gossip about one another which enables you too know the travels and hard times of your cousins or maybe you made it an effort to keep track of their failure as means of measuring your success. Either way, I can assure you their calling you white girl does not have anything to do with where they have ended up in life and trying to use your position in life relative to theirs as a sign that their taunting and you being on the receiving end of that taunting is what led to yours and theirs respective positions in life today is very foolish.

It appears as if you embrace the idea of being called white because in your mind such is equated with working hard, going to the Ritz, skiing down the slopes in Colorado, being educated etc..

If you are acting or being white it is only in your acceptance of the activities you engage in and the realities surrounding your life being equated to whiteness. As a Black man or woman the natural thing to do is reject the idea that you are other than yourself and put forth the reasons why you are what you are. You however have decided to embrace the idea of you being or acting white if you engage in certain activities and certain realities define your life; that is the tragedy of your life. Being accused of acting white or being called white is a badge of honor for you and that is sad but then again considering how you view those who say these things to you explains why you are ok with being called white or accused of acting white. Simply put, as long as those who accuse you of these things are less educated than you, have less money than you, live in the ghetto, and could not possibly pay one of your bills you don't give a damn. After all, they will never stay at the Ritz, go skiing or be in the National Bar Association.

I don't know you at all but from reading what you have written in this thread, all accusations of you being white and or acting white is probably warranted considering your snobbish attitude, arrogance and elitist view point of your family and others.
Without having read much of this thread, I will say that I think the whole argument about "acting white" is rather ridiculous. Since we live in a white world, operate within a white culture, eat white food, work in a white economy, pay taxes to a white government, speak a white language, worship a white God, wear white clothes, take white medicine, live in white homes, eat with white utensils, are governed by white laws, etc., etc., etc. - how does this argument have any merit whatsoever? Sure we may put a black spin on things, but so what? We are "spinning" something that - at the core - is white.

With that as context, does this argument make any sense whatsoever? Confused
Why is anyone who strives to leave a failing neighborhood or school considered "acting white"? I'm all for improving depressed Black areas, but sometimes there is just very little you can do in certain situations. Of course inner city Blac schools should be improved, but should a child be forced to remain in a substandard learning environment if a better one is available? What's that one kid going to do? And what's wrong with separating yourself from "ghetto Blacks"? By ghetto I mean the people intent on doing nothing with their lives except ruining it and then blaming everyone else, not the unfortunate underclass who are stuck in a bad environment due to lack of finances or education. Who in the world wants to associate with such negativity? I'm all for Black solidarity, but just because someone is my race doesn't mean I'm going to embrace them if they choose to persue a "ghetto" lifestyle.
quote:
Originally posted by UppityNegress:
Why is anyone who strives to leave a failing neighborhood or school considered "acting white"? I'm all for improving depressed Black areas, but sometimes there is just very little you can do in certain situations. Of course inner city Blac schools should be improved, but should a child be forced to remain in a substandard learning environment if a better one is available? What's that one kid going to do? And what's wrong with separating yourself from "ghetto Blacks"? By ghetto I mean the people intent on doing nothing with their lives except ruining it and then blaming everyone else, not the unfortunate underclass who are stuck in a bad environment due to lack of finances or education. Who in the world wants to associate with such negativity? I'm all for Black solidarity, but just because someone is my race doesn't mean I'm going to embrace them if they choose to persue a "ghetto" lifestyle.


appl bow flowers thanks
Again, acting white and acting intelligently are two different things. This is a sign of where our thoughts about ourselves are....and if we equate 'ghetto blacks' with self-destructive behavior again we need to check our thought process about ourselves....
This thread about defining what it means to 'act white' and to be 'ghetto' seems to be largely dependant upon stereotypes instead of facts.
Some of you all act as if 'acting white' is a good thing or some sort of badge of honor. I'm black and I'm going to act black. White people are nothing to emulate. And acting in such a manner is out of our nature in the first place. I say act intelligently and in the best interest of your families and communities, no matter where you live.
quote:
Originally posted by Yemaya:
Some of you all act as if 'acting white' is a good thing or some sort of badge of honor. I'm black and I'm going to act black. White people are nothing to emulate. And acting in such a manner is out of our nature in the first place.

With all due respect, this is my main problem with this entire concept.

I am a Black man. It is absolutely impossible for me to "act white". Anything I do, or anyway I act, will be Black. Neither Blacks nor Whites are monolithic. If we deny anything negative that Black people do, calling it "acting white", then we are simply denying the nature of man.

I see nothing productive in that.
quote:
go to the Ritz Carlton for vacation [National Bar Convention] and go skiing in Canada or Colorado every year [with the National Brotherhood of Skiers] because that is what I do. If being educated says I am acting white, then the Black people who say it are showing they do not know there own history, they want the bling but don't want to put the time in [study] to position themselves to earn it, seems short sighted to me.


This entire subject could be called the psychology of class and its relationship to economics and race. ROFL A Bleck woman asked me to come to Paris with her a few years ago. I told her the Russians could nuke Paris. She handed me all this stuff about HISTORY. I didn't want to get into an argument about it so I let the subject drop. I say if you are going to Europe for history you go to Rome not Paris. She had a thing about Paris. She showed me some photos when she got back. I didn't care about the scenery, what I found interesting was this group of Black women and no men.

I think there is something to this "acting White" though there will be a lot of disagreement about what it is. In my opinion the "status seeking" Black Americans need Whites to tell them what "CLASS" is, and will spend a lot of time and money aping this honky bullsh!t. We have to show the White people that we have "arrived." Arrived at what I'm not sure. The palefaces are playing these ego-status games with each other also but they often have more resources to play the games with and therefore aren't wasting money that should be spent on more important things.

quote:
there are two types of "intelligent" black folks: those who can recite the whole works of Shakespeare and can quote Jean=Paul Sartre, but have no idea who Kahlil Gibran is, and like her who aren't afraid to learn the real truths about their people.


This is another aspect of the status games. Since the palefaces determine what is "high class" they decide what knowledge one has to posessed to qualify. I actually like some Shakespear. The sci-fi movie Forbidden Planet is partly based on his play The Tempest. But despite the big deal that is made of Shakespear I confess I don't see much practical value in it. We must have spent two weeks in high school English class comparing Romeo and Juliet to West Side Story. What a boring waste. LOL

quote:
Well how about teaching us the damn subject instead of giving up on us?


The majority of teachers I have had I either didn't like or was indifferent to. What matters is the subject not the teacher. I suspect I have a somewhat asocial personality so this wasn't a big problem for me. The internet presents us with an option other than school, it is just a question of how we choose to use it.

http://africanamericansovereignty.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=13

umbrarchist
Gambit tfro, UppityNegress appl I could not have said it better myself, MBM, I know you are wondering why I got into this after the last one, but it was just to tempting Smile Black Viking thanks Yemaya, may the Force be with you girl



ItAintEasy and Faheem, neither of you is at liberty to define my Blackness. hit

Moreover if either of you could ski your perspective would probably be more, shall we say balanced. You want to blame the me and people with my point of view for the failures of the Black community. Since each of you missed the point of my comments, I will not dumb them down for you to understand. What is clear to me, however, is that neither of you have a grasp of the American English contained in this thread. Because if you did, you would have understood everything I said, as opposed to only the few words you could read. Most likely, because of dual feelings of inadequacy [meaning emotional and intellectual, since I doubt you would understand the context without a definitional clue] you both ascribe and project onto others your views to people who you deem to be better off. It is also distressing that you define enjoying all that life has to offer as being white, yet another example of your low self worth. But what is most unfortunate is the fact that both of you obviously failed reading comprehension at a very early age. You two almost make me want to sing "the Beauty School Drop-Out song from Grease, it is so apropos here. Simply put, be a part of the solution guys, instead of cursing someone for taking action you can't, haven't or won't!
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If there is any thoughts or feelings of inadequacy on display here Nikcara, surely all of it is coming from you. You have a need to believe those who disagree with you, or simply don't like you must be intellectually inferior thus their disagreement with you is due only to their inability to understand what you say and you are not one to dumb down anything you say because you speak from such a high level. Haha... I know when I am dealing with a damn fool, so I will not continue to converse with a Negro man or woman who suffer from delusions of superiority because they did not fail reading comprehension at an early age and ski in Colorado.
quote:
Originally posted by Yemaya:
Again, acting white and acting intelligently are two different things. This is a sign of where our thoughts about ourselves are....and if we equate 'ghetto blacks' with self-destructive behavior again we need to check our thought process about ourselves....
This thread about defining what it means to 'act white' and to be 'ghetto' seems to be largely dependant upon stereotypes instead of facts.
Some of you all act as if 'acting white' is a good thing or some sort of badge of honor. I'm black and I'm going to act black. White people are nothing to emulate. And acting in such a manner is out of our nature in the first place. I say act intelligently and in the best interest of your families and communities, no matter where you live.


I understand your point, Yemaya. It has always bothered me to no end that so many of our youth associate white with intelligence. Do they really not see that if you take that a step further, then black=stupid? So I agree, it's not intelligence per so that the "you're acting white" crowd gets riled about. It seems more of a difference in behavior. Things that have absolutely nothing to do with intelligence, like skiing or playing golf, fall under the umbrella of "acting white", because these are activities engaged in primarily by whites (in the USA, at least). I can sort of understand where the "acting white" stereotype comes from in the above cases, although it's pretty stupid; can't someone just enjoy a sport, hobby, or activity for its own sake, irregardless of the type of people who also like it? Some people just can't seem to handle that not everyone think a certain way, or like the same thing.

In all our discussion on "acting white", I don't think anyone's given a definitive answer on what the criteria for this judgement is. The easy way out would be to say that "acting white" is in direct opposition to "acting ghetto", but that doesn't really take into account the tons of Black Americans who don't "act ghetto" (geez, gotta define ghetto as well).

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