There IS no black male shortage!

Ironhorse, you seem like an extremely intelligent brother. Your post is right on the money, and your points could not have been better expressed.

One thing I've never been able to understand about this "black male shortage" nonsense is the way the numbers are manipulated. People who believe in it take away all of the ineligible men from the equation and arrive at a small number of what women are "left with," but they never seem to take into account all of the ineligible women who would offset much of the losses on the man side. They want to remove the gay men, but they don't realize that lesbians offset that. They subtract the gay men, but they don't subtract the lesbians, which means they leave lesbians in as part of the straight black woman's overall competitive landscape. That's just wrong. Then, they want to remove those men who get consumed in the thug life, but they don't remove the women who make themselves unattractive to eligible men by virtue of their involvement in the "ghetto lyfe." They may not as often be jailed or killed, but it doesn't mean that they constitute an option for eligible men. That means they don't count as competition against intelligent, classy, worthwhile eligible women.

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Originally posted by IRONHORSE:

When I first started grad school, I thought along the same lines of the infamous black male shortage--surely, a brother of my caliber, entering grad school would have the pick of the litter--I was wrong.

I'm going to play devil's advocate with you here. I'm sure some sisters will as well.

First, when you say things like "a brother of my caliber" it would seem that you open yourself to people perceiving a meaningful measure of arrogance that many find unattractive. If you were in grad school, then I presume that the sisters you would be exposed to would also be there and of the same "caliber". Hence, the reference to "caliber" (at least as it relates to black women in school with you) and your expectation of having "the pick of the litter" seems superfluous and, as mentioned, perhaps arrogant.

Beyond that, there are certainly deeper issues of character, integrity, personality, etc. that have nothing to do with one's station in life. Black women may have acknowledged your professional achievements, but been turned off by other things you were bringing to the table.

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I met sisters with a number of excuses or issues that kept them from being romantically available.

Perhaps they were available, but for whatever reason just not to you.

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The problem with putting up barriers against elligible men is a two-edged sword--of course these women will be evading potentially harmful men but they will also knock themselves out of the elligble pool of available men altogether--this is specifically detrimental when considering the fact that these sisters are around a high concentration of black men that are on the same level as they are.

Because there are so many DOGS among our rank, I can certainly understand why women are hesitant to jump at the first attractive black man they see. Would you give your sister or daughter any different advice?

The bottom line is are the "good" brothers getting a chance to demonstrate their "goodness"? Honestly (and I say this with no ego at all), I have never had a problem in connecting with sisters - good sisters. I have found that if you "come correct" (with respect and class and integrity etc.) then the barriers fall. Quickly.

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Another interesting problem is the number of sisters out there that are of age and are STILL playing high school games--being immature, manipulative, chosing bad boy types to interact with.

I have to counterbalance this with all of the shit that brothers put sisters through. Perhaps they are "playing games" because we play games to such a strong degree. Perhaps they play games because of all of the shit that we put them through? Perhaps they play games because we create incentives for them to do so? Why else would they do it?

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You would think that these type of sisters between the ages of 25 to 36 would have learned from their mistakes of pursuing the wrong kind of men but they haven't.

I'm a little uncomfortable with your characterization of the "wrong kind of men". Honestly, I could see how some people could perceive your use of this language as a vehicle to position yourself as the "right kind of man". Again, respectfully, maybe this is some of the attitude that sisters aren't comfortable with. Moreover, hopefully brothers would have also learned from their mistakes!

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From my personal experiences of interacting with sisters, I have found, more often than not, that many sisters (and brothers too, for this matter) do not take the time to develop the necessary social skills to, not only be receptive to elligible black men, they also don't have a healthy idea of what an elligible black man is.

Respectfully, perhaps the issue is of your own conception of what an "eligible black man" is. Maybe you and the sisters need to meet in the middle conceptually to better understand each other.

Thank you, Vox, for your response. Your opinion is especially valued because of your time spent on this website.

First, let me correct my repetitious error--'eligible'.

You are right, Vox--the numbers are grossly misrepresented. I will be very general in the statement I'm about to make because, in my opinion, I've never heard a sister say otherwise; of all of the times sisters have talked over and over again about the numbers of brothers that are gay, in prison, dead, or married, they've never dropped the numbers of ineligible black women from the equation.

One other thing that I must bring to the table--the numbers of women being incarcerated are outgrowing the numbers of men being incarcerated, which means, ladies, you can no longer enjoy the luxury of milking that previously male-dominated statistic.

Sisters love to milk the statistic of ineligble men but they fail to mention the numbers of sisters that are lesbians, the number of sisters that are also in prison, the thuggets, and, of course, the number of sisters that are also uneducated, and unemployed--and of course, the one statistic that most women hate to be reminded of--the prevalent numbers of single mothers (I'm talking about career baby mamas, not single mothers as a result of divorce)--oh, I'm sorry, that's all black mens' fault, right? Wrong.

Many sisters think just because they're single, they deserve a good man--what they don't understand is, would a good man want you? Too many sisters, more often than need be, have milked the excuse of how socially inept or absent many brothers have been for so long, many sisters, themselves, have allowed their personal morals and standards to go by the wayside--there's nothing worse than meeting a beautiful sister that speaks poor grammar or allows men treat her in a disrespectful manner or lacks social etiquette. I'm sorry, ladies, but a pretty face and a lubricated vagina does not an eligible sister make.

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Originally posted by Vox:

One thing I've never been able to understand about this "black male shortage" nonsense is the way the numbers are manipulated.

Vox - are you suggesting that there are equal numbers of black men in jail as black women? You have a good point about the gay/lesbian mix, but black men are uniquely targeted by society in ways that no other group is. As a result, we are incarcerated to a greater degree and are involved in behaviors that make us less attractive to "together" sisters.

Furthermore, there are many many more sisters in college in America than brothers. That has been the case for quite awhile. I hear friends from HBCU's talk about 10:1 to 15:1 ratios of women to men and more at these schools. Over time, that adds up.

Beyond all of this, I can't tell you how many single sisters I know who would be married if they could. To be clear, these are some of the most educated, best employed women around - doctors, lawyers, business people, etc. The bottom line is that there just aren't the brothers out there to match them.

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Vox - are you suggesting that there are equal numbers of black men in jail as black women? You have a good point about the gay/lesbian mix, but black men are uniquely targeted by society in ways that no other group is.

I have to correct you, MBM. No, I don't have the direct quote from the source where I got this news (blackamericaweb.com) but in the last few years, black women have exceded the number of black males that are being incarcerated.

The reason for more black women being incarcerated is due to their involvement, as an accessory, to the drug related crimes of their boyfriends (Damn, once again, our fault).

Just found this for 2000.

MBM, your detailed analysis of my discussion, your 'devil's advocate,' as you put it, is very entertaining. Surely, you can ascertain from the discussions I've written so far, that I am not the pompous, arrogant, self-absorbed idiot you have indirectly pointed me out to be.

I stand by my statement of being 'a man of my caliber' because, first of all, I don't consider myself to be a man or an eligible bachelor mearly by my accomplishments. I also consider myself to be 'a man of my caliber' because of my hometraining--the morals, values, integrity and character my family instilled in me from day one, which, unfortunately, some brothers do not have. Does that mean I think I'm better than they are? No. It just means that I chose to maintain what my family has taught me instead of giving in to the peer pressures of society in order to be accepted.

You know, the funny thing is, MBM, I can tell you aren't originally from the south--old school southern mothers raise their sons differently than from the rest of the nation. Even today, some of the most prevalent black men in today's society, Cornell West, Dr. Michael Eric Dyson, Colin Powell, to name a few, were raised in old school southern tradition--if their mother wasn't from the south, they were raised around aunts, and grandmothers that had a prolific influence on their lives. There is a certain pride that we brothers of this nature possess that brothers of other backgrounds simply do not have--this topic can be further discussed in other forums--I run the risk of digressing from the topic at hand.

I said all that to say this--when I refer to myself in my discussions, as you will quickly come to learn, I don't hold my tongue--It's called being asertive, not arrogant--it's called being confident, not conceited--if it makes some people feel 'uncomfortable' then that is something they, as adults, are going to have to deal with.

Now, back to the rebuttal at hand--I've had the esteemed pleasure of dating women from around the nation and around the world--I've never had a problem interpersonally with women, nevertheles, it doesn't mean that I haven't incountered inconsistencies in the behavior patterns of women certain women I have come in contact with.

I also stand by the statement of some sisters chosing the 'wrong kind of men' first of all, because if a brother speaks of his negative experience with black women, some sisters are quick to say, "You're attracted to the wrong kind of women." What's good for the goose is good for the gandeur. Secondly, I stand by this statment--if a woman chooses to remain involved with a brother that is counterproductive, to say the least, to the progress of their relationship, particularly, if they are abusive and neglectful toward the woman they're involved with--the woman tries to make a bold effort to resolve these issues, and the brother continues to create strife and conflict, then, by that definition, he is 'the wrong kind of man' for that woman.

Furthermore, on the issue of men being 'dogs' and women having to put up with their 'games' I will simply say this--two wrongs don't make a right. My mother taught me, as well as my sisters, common sense--you teach people how you want to be treated. Your attempt to be a devils' advocate is valiant but, to a certain degree, moot, nevertheless, you are entitled to your opinion despite how premature it may be.

I do welcome your participation on this topic of women putting up with 'dogs' in a forum I will create possibly tomorrow. If you don't know, you will find out soon....

By the way, MBM, your prison index for 2002 is quite outdated. My source is significantly updated--within the last 3 years. Secondly, the important thing to mention, MBM, I wasn't referring to the total number of incarcerated black males v.s. incarcerated black females, I was referring to the rate at which black females are being incarcerated, when in comparison to black males.

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I stand by my statement of being 'a man of my caliber' because, first of all, I don't consider myself to be a man or an eligible bachelor mearly by my accomplishments. I also consider myself to be 'a man of my caliber' because of my hometraining--the morals, values, integrity and character my family instilled in me from day one, which, unfortunately, some brothers do not have. Does that mean I think I'm better than they are? No. It just means that I chose to maintain what my family has taught me instead of giving in to the peer pressures of society in order to be accepted.

The assumption that you would have "the pick of the litter", for whatever reason, is what sounds arrogant. It's very different from saying "I think I'm a great catch" or something of the sort. It calls to mind an image of you sitting back and surveying the Black women around you and selecting one for the honor of spending time with you. I'm pretty certain that's not what you mean to convey, but that's how it comes across.

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Many sisters, more often than not, adhere to popular culture's idea of what an elligble black male is, via their 'girlfriends.' To put it more specifically, if a brother doesn't fit the ideal mold of what an elligible black man is, by 'girlfriends' requirements, then he isn't elligble.

This makes me chuckle. Ask Black men to put together a list of what they want in a woman and you'll find an even longer laundry list of qualities an eligible woman must possess. Look at your own posts. According to you, a Black woman must:

• Never have allowed herself to be verbally, physically or emotionally abused; and if she had, then she should carry absolutely no baggage from it (I noticed you neglected to mention WHO was doing that abusing, but I digress)
  
• Not play any games, regardless of the games a man chooses to play with her
  
• Pay absolutely no attention to what society/friends tells her is an eligible man
  
• Never find herself with children and unwed, lest she be branded a "career baby mama" (no mention of the men who take full advantage of a "pretty face and lubricated vagina" and break all kinds of Guiness Book records trying to run out of the situation)
  
• Not dare to tell herself she "deserves" a good man
  
• Have high personal morals and standards
  
• Have excellent grammar
  
• Never allow anyone to disrepect her
  
• Have good social ettiquette
  
• Make sure she doesn't get arrested being a drug mule for her man (even though the authorities use this tactic as a way of getting men to come clean to protect their girlfriends and when push comes to shove, guess who is left high and dry and behind bars)

And we haven't even gotten into what this Magical Black Woman is supposed to look like.

IRONHORSE, what do you think Black women get out of saying there is a shortage of Black men? You speak of us gleefully "milking" statistics and twisting facts as if there is something to be gained from all this. It's not fun, it's frustrating. Especially when men (who obviously experience the dating world differently) tell you that what you see all around you is some figment of your imagination.

BAAAAAAAAAA HA HA HA HA HA!!

*Fell out of my desk chair, bumped my head on the corner of my desk and hit the floor*

Okay, Frenchy, now you're getting a little too anal retentive, all on a count of a play of words--so I said 'pick of the litter.' You've made me out to be some kind of spoiled, tyrantical boy king of Persia or something...

HA HA HA HAH AH HA HAHA HA HA!!!

Before I answer your post, Frenchy, I simply MUST quote this part:

"IRONHORSE, what do you think Black women get out of saying there is a shortage of Black men? You speak of us gleefully "milking" statistics and twisting facts as if there is something to be gained from all this. It's not fun, it's frustrating."

Frenchy, perhaps you should direct that question towards your own sisteren--what do black women get out of saying there is a shortage of black men?

You see, Frenchy, this is the main reason why a lot of brothers choose to suffer in silence, grin and bear it, and go with the flow, instead of voicing their opinions about their experiences in relationships--too many sisters are there to jump down his throat if he says anything.

I can't speak for the brothers out there, I can only speak for myself--if or when I'm experiencing difficulties between myself and a particular woman, I don't run around with my hands up in the air and say, "All black women are some gold-digging ho's," and I most certainly don't say there's a shortage of good black women.

Why is it that when a sister complains of her frustrations in dealing with black men she is backed up by high-fives, hallelujahs, and amens, however, if a brother complains, then, he's an arrogant low-down, dirty bastard? So, the impression you're giving me is women should feel justified in doing and saying anything under the sun but we brothers don't have a right to express our own frustrations? I don't think so.

I'm going to be straight up with you--I know the statistics, up and down, about the disparities between black men and black women--this garbage has absolutely NOTHING to do with me--bottom line.

In this next paragraph, you're going to see a lot of "I's, so, you better clean your glasses off and get ready--I have never abused or neglected a woman, in any way, that I've been involved with, EVER, in my life. I have never gotten a woman pregnant nor can a woman say she has had a child by me. I have never been married, therefore, I have never been divorced. I have never served one second of a prison sentence nor do I have anything on my record other than minor traffic violations. Oh, and obviously, as you can see, I haven't died at the age of 25, like society has labeled many of us has doing.Last, but most certainly not least, I can proudly say that I'm straight as an arrow--no, I'm not homophobic, just proud to be a heterosexual. So, by what I have stated, and by the stastics of black men in America, I am 'a figment of your imagination.'

I love this quote too:

"The assumption that you would have "the pick of the litter", for whatever reason, is what sounds arrogant. It's very different from saying "I think I'm a great catch" or something of the sort. It calls to mind an image of you sitting back and surveying the Black women around you and selecting one for the honor of spending time with you. I'm pretty certain that's not what you mean to convey, but that's how it comes across."

I'm pretty sure you mean well, Frenchy, but I don't walk on eggshells, not in my career, not in life, and most certainly, not on a website. It's amazing how, so far, only the things that have been percieved as "arrogant" have been pointed out from one discussion. I'm pretty sure most of the people on this site exercise a lot of diplomacy in their discussions but I don't write that way.

Now, Frenchy, if I wasn't an open-minded, objective, sensible man with a sense of humor, I would have taken offense to this next quote:

"This makes me chuckle. Ask Black men to put together a list of what they want in a woman and you'll find an even longer laundry list of qualities an eligible woman must possess. Look at your own posts."

That comment was very generalized. The last time I checked, 'according to me' -- I don't recall making any sort of list of requirements for what I consider to be an eligible black woman. Instead of jumping to conclusions, assuming what kind of woman I'm interested in, due to your overzealous literary superimposing, perhaps you should simply ask me.

I never ask for any more out of a woman than I have the ability to offer--this is me we're talking about, not all those other brothers you're having such a frustrating time with.
Here's my list of what I consider makes a 'Magical Black Negro Woman' or what I would more sensibly prefer to call the right woman for me, not Ms. right, mind you, but the right woman for me:

--A christian woman

--A woman that is an educated professional.

--Preferably, a woman with no children.

--A woman that has had at least a little experience in life, albeit negative, and or positive, yet, have the common sense to learn from her experiences and mistakes, instead of making the same mistakes over and over again and or using her negative experiences as a crutch or a scapegoat to behave inconsistently.

--A woman that is confident and secure in herself. Possesses a sense of humor--a woman that is receptive to love, respect and friendship and reciprocates what she recieves.

You see, Frenchy, you have me all wrong--I love my sisters--I want nothing but the best for them, more specifically, I would want nothing but the best for my prospective mate--support her in her goals and aspirations, allow her to be who she wants to be--be there for her in a time of need. However, that doesn't mean I will let a woman walk all over me either.

Well, this brings us to another topic--one I will leave alone for the moment but you will come to see who I really am in the coming months.

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You see, Frenchy, this is the main reason why a lot of brothers choose to suffer in silence, grin and bear it, and go with the flow, instead of voicing their opinions about their experiences in relationships--too many sisters are there to jump down his throat if he says anything.

I can't speak for the brothers out there, I can only speak for myself--if or when I'm experiencing difficulties between myself and a particular woman, I don't run around with my hands up in the air and say, "All black women are some gold-digging ho's," and I most certainly don't say there's a shortage of good black women.

Why is it that when a sister complains of her frustrations in dealing with black men she is backed up by high-fives, hallelujahs, and amens, however, if a brother complains, then, he's an arrogant low-down, dirty bastard? So, the impression you're giving me is women should feel justified in doing and saying anything under the sun but we brothers don't have a right to express our own frustrations? I don't think so..............

Sounds like he pretty much hit it on the head. Me personally I have become less inclined to compromise for the sake of doing so, just to fit into the mold of the "perfect man", while I'm supposed to accept a female for who she is. If that means I'm arrogant then so be it.

catch

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Originally posted by MBM:

Vox - are you suggesting that there are equal numbers of black men in jail as black women? You have a good point about the gay/lesbian mix, but black men are uniquely targeted by society in ways that no other group is. As a result, we are incarcerated to a greater degree and are involved in behaviors that make us less attractive to "together" sisters.

Furthermore, there are many many more sisters in college in America than brothers. That has been the case for quite awhile. I hear friends from HBCU's talk about 10:1 to 15:1 ratios of women to men and more at these schools. Over time, that adds up.

Beyond all of this, I can't tell you how many single sisters I know who would be married if they could. To be clear, these are some of the most educated, best employed women around - doctors, lawyers, business people, etc. The bottom line is that there just aren't the brothers out there to match them.

What I'm saying is that men in general and women in general navigate through certain environments in ways that are different from one another. So for every black man from the hood who's in jail, there's a black woman from the hood who is living foul but not breaking any laws.

I know what you may be thinking: being in jail effectively removes a man from the dating pool, while at least the woman is out there and COULD get themselves together. But that's irrelevant to the whole idea of a male shortage, because the point of the male shortage thing is that if there's a male shortage, women will have a hard time finding a suitable mate because the lower numbers of eligible men create more competition between women for a man. But the problem is, looking at it holistically, if a particular black woman is completely unacceptable as a partner by virtue of her lifestyle and attitudes, then she poses no competition for the women who are "together" with theirs. The unacceptable woman must be removed from the number of available women. The fact is, the "male shortage blues" crowd never, ever does that.

I would love to meet a classy, professional woman who is intelligent, cares about the world outside of her career track, and who is emotionally mature... who is also single. They must not live in the tri-state area. Maybe I need to move to Atlanta... (MBM, holla!)

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Frenchy, perhaps you should direct that question towards your own sisteren--what do black women get out of saying there is a shortage of black men?

We don't "get" anything out of it. It's simply truth telling in a discussion about relationships.

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You see, Frenchy, this is the main reason why a lot of brothers choose to suffer in silence, grin and bear it, and go with the flow, instead of voicing their opinions about their experiences in relationships--too many sisters are there to jump down his throat if he says anything.

Did you not open this topic up for discussion?? I don't see where I was "jumping down your throat" but I'm sorry if I gave you that impression.

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I can't speak for the brothers out there, I can only speak for myself--if or when I'm experiencing difficulties between myself and a particular woman, I don't run around with my hands up in the air and say, "All black women are some gold-digging ho's," and I most certainly don't say there's a shortage of good black women.

That's not what's going on, though. It isn't a case of Black women having bad experiences with Black men and writing off Black men entirely as a result. It's a matter of a great many Black women who can't find, aren't approached by, or aren't appreciated by Black men to begin with.

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Why is it that when a sister complains of her frustrations in dealing with black men she is backed up by high-fives, hallelujahs, and amens, however, if a brother complains, then, he's an arrogant low-down, dirty bastard?

A sister is usually "complaining" about men with other sisters who tend to know exactly where she is coming from and what she's talking about, hence the high-fives, etc. You got your own high-five from Vox at the start of this thread because he could relate to what you were talking about. So clearly not all men who "complain" about the dating world is considered a lowdown dirty bastard.

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So, the impression you're giving me is women should feel justified in doing and saying anything under the sun but we brothers don't have a right to express our own frustrations? I don't think so.

You are free to express what you like, just as I'm free to respond. I don't want you to run off and suffer in silence. I want to hear what you have to say.

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In this next paragraph, you're going to see a lot of "I's, so, you better clean your glasses off and get ready--I have never abused or neglected a woman, in any way, that I've been involved with, EVER, in my life. I have never gotten a woman pregnant nor can a woman say she has had a child by me. I have never been married, therefore, I have never been divorced. I have never served one second of a prison sentence nor do I have anything on my record other than minor traffic violations. Oh, and obviously, as you can see, I haven't died at the age of 25, like society has labeled many of us has doing.Last, but most certainly not least, I can proudly say that I'm straight as an arrow--no, I'm not homophobic, just proud to be a heterosexual. So, by what I have stated, and by the stastics of black men in America, I am 'a figment of your imagination.'

Well my glasses are cleaned off and I have to say that I don't see what that has to do with the price of beans in China. Sistas are talking about a shortage of Black men. You may have your act together, but you are only one man. It doesn't change the situation that there are fewer "men of your caliber" than "women of your caliber." I know that somewhere out there over the rainbow in a land far far faaaar away exists a "good" Black man. (kidding ) Seriously though, I know that "good" men exist and that you may be one of them. I'm simply putting forth the idea that there are not enough.

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I'm pretty sure you mean well, Frenchy, but I don't walk on eggshells, not in my career, not in life, and most certainly, not on a website. It's amazing how, so far, only the things that have been percieved as "arrogant" have been pointed out from one discussion. I'm pretty sure most of the people on this site exercise a lot of diplomacy in their discussions but I don't write that way.

I touched on the "arrogant" issue because you seemed to attribute it to MBM not understanding your Southern upbringing and other folks feeling uncomfortable with your confidence. I've spent time addressing other aspects of your message as well.

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That comment was very generalized. The last time I checked, 'according to me' -- I don't recall making any sort of list of requirements for what I consider to be an eligible black woman.

I pulled everything from that list from your posts in this thread.

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I never ask for any more out of a woman than I have the ability to offer--this is me we're talking about, not all those other brothers you're having such a frustrating time with.

That's great. I applaud you. However, it's my understanding that we're also talking about a lack of men in general and not just you specifically.

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Originally posted by IRONHORSE:
...I'm pretty sure most of the people on this site exercise a lot of diplomacy in their discussions but I don't write that way.

Obviously, you have not read all the posts on this site - especially none from brother Nmaginate...

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... the right woman for me:

--A christian woman

--A woman that is an educated professional.

--Preferably, a woman with no children.

--A woman that has had at least a little experience in life, albeit negative, and or positive, yet, have the common sense to learn from her experiences and mistakes, instead of making the same mistakes over and over again and or using her negative experiences as a crutch or a scapegoat to behave inconsistently.

--A woman that is confident and secure in herself. Possesses a sense of humor--a woman that is receptive to love, respect and friendship and reciprocates what she recieves.

I say to you what a lot of sisters that I have talked with say is said to them: "...why don' you lower your standards..." "...you're just not looking in the right places..." "...have you tried church..."

I am with MBM, I have found that if you come at sisters straight up and w/o all the bullshit that they are much more receptive to your advances. Don't get me wrong brother, I can't begin to tell you how to "operate", but I do know that sometimes we need to look at ourselves and and maybe make some changes. That goes for both men and women...

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Originally posted by Vox:

I would love to meet a classy, professional woman who is intelligent, cares about the world outside of her career track, and who is emotionally mature... who is also single. They must not live in the tri-state area. Maybe I need to move to Atlanta... (MBM, holla!)

I hear you Vox and certainly can't argue with your anecdotal evidence, but the facts are that colleges have grauduated FAR more sisters than brothers for a lot of years now. That obviously puts many more black women into the pool of eligible singles that are "together" than black male. Now I am certainly not suggesting that a college degree is required to boe considered "eligible" - but it does speak to an imbalance of women who are "bringin' it" at a certain level versus men. As you know, many brothers are hesistant to pursue a woman who makes more money and is better credentialed than he. This seems to be a meaningful part of the problem as well.

Lastly, again, my own personal experience suggests that while I don't know any black women of my parents' generation who are single for a lack of men, I know PLENTY in mine.

Audioguy, I'm going to respond to what you said before I go back to Frenchy:

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I am with MBM, I have found that if you come at sisters straight up and w/o all the bullshit that they are much more receptive to your advances. Don't get me wrong brother, I can't begin to tell you how to "operate", but I do know that sometimes we need to look at ourselves and and maybe make some changes.

I don't blame you entirely for assuming that my "macking skills" aren't up to par, due to MBM's rather unwarranted 'devil's advocate.' Let me clarify one thing about this entire discussion--I was responding to a discussion written by, naturallyme, in "The Sista's Spot" about the number of single sisters that overshadow single brothers in graduate school.

Even though there are large numbers of women in various graduate schools, more often than not, many of those woman are already married with children, and are in graduate school to advance in their careers. It also isn't the case that just because the larger population of single sisters in grad school do exist, doesn't mean that they are immune to the same issues that the general populous of sisters have that make them romantically inaccessible.

As for me, personally, AudioGuy, my interpersonal skills are very formidable. I've never had a problem getting a woman and my rather unique approach, which requires the total absence of one-liners, in other words, coming correct and not bullshitting a woman, is something to be admired.

Oh yeah, and to remind MBM, particularly since he was a witness to this event, I recall the first day I came to this site, I braught three beautiful women to this website with me--no, I'm not being cocky, just stating the facts.

Now, back to you, Frenchy--you won't be running me off anytime soon, sister--yes, you took my words out of context to create your little comical list of requirements--unless I tell you exactly what my wants and needs are, I suggest you ask me directly instead of jumping to conclusions and making accusations.

You're not slick, Frenchy--Nowhere in my previous discussions have I even remotely talked about what I want in a prospective mate. For you to make up this list. Not only did you take my words out of context, you added your own little synical remarks, creating a chauventistic twist. That, too, was unecessary and grossly digressed from the point of this discussion.

This is what I have a problem with--I run into sisters like you that (yeah, I said it) milk the no good black men left line to the fullest degree but when a brother like me comes along, you, as well as many others, say, "Yeah but you're just one man." What is that supposed to mean? Just because I'm one man, one of many, does that mean I do not exist? Does that mean that what I have and can contribute to this society as a "good black man" doesn't have as much weight because I am only one?

Just because I am one man, does that mean it won't matter to that one woman I choose to marry in the foreseable future? By the way, yes, I specifically remember localizing this issue to me, not the general populous of men out there because I can only speak for myself.

I think, for one thing, Frenchy, the reason why so many of you sisters have trouble finding the right man for you is you're too busy listening to statistics--not broadening your interpersonal horizons. What I've often run into are women that call themselves dying for a good black man but, more often than not, do not want to make the necessary sacrifices to do so--this entailes the possibility of long distance relationships, employing the services of a dating company or simply changing their idea of the protocol of socializing with the opposite sex in public. This is yet another topic, changing the protocol of socializing with members of the opposite sex, I will discuss at another time...

IRONHORSE

Equally yoked.
This is your basis for wanting a Christian Woman right?
I know of many religions that share the same truths and doctrines as Christianity, so why do you feel that the woman has to be Christian for you to be considered equally yoked? Are you afriad that her faith in her system will somehow overshadow yours and you will be forced to "renounce your thrown"? Or is this somehow just a trivial personal preference, like say, your favorite choice of wine?

Come on, HeruStar, you're reading a little too far into this. There is nothing about a woman, financially, spiritually, physically, mentally or psychologically that would overshadow me.

Does a woman necessarily have to be christian in order for her to be considered a prospective mate? No. I've dated woman of various religions--the important thing is, whether or not the woman I marry is southern baptist, hindu, COGIC, or non-denominational, she is going to have to understand two things: I will not convert to their religion, and I will fully respect their choice of faith.

I also have friends whom are devout catholics, jewish, muslim, apentocostal, buddist, atheist and a host of other religious backgrounds. I welcome the multitude of differences in religions and value each for their uniquene doctrine. However, I am Baptist--born and raised in the church--I will not comprimise my faith for anyone. To correct you furhter, HeruStar, no religion can overshadow any other. When judgement day comes, in whatever shape or form it may come in, I believe all humans will be judged accordingly--no one will have preferential seating in heaven, allah, or whatever other world we will transcend to.

There is nothing trivial about a person's choice in religion, in the same instance, people should also respect the choice a person makes in the religion they chose to follow. If I married a woman of another religion, I would be respectful of her religion just as I feel she should respect mine but I will not convert to her religion, nor should she have to convert to mine. Furthermore, I feel that our children should experience both religions yet have the freedom to choose which religion they want to follow.

I would just like to state that I am one of the beautiful black women Iron brought over... This is a fabulous discussion.

I am so enjoying what I'm reading.

Hey, Avi, you tell em' pookie. These people don't know who I be...they're finding out very quickly though.

Good morning by the way, boo boo....

I gotta agree with Iron here.

How many brothers out here are doing the right things, staying on point and are still single? Its not that there is a black male shortage, its that there is a certain "type" of black male shortage. Hey if the gold teeth and flashy rims gets a female hot, I say do your thing, but don't come back with complaining about the man you hooked up with when the real estate agent that got dissed walks past you with a wallet full of money and a cold stare for ya...hehehehehehehhe

Sup, Justin!

It's funny--you have some sisters that want to do it the hard way--they want to make their own man instead of just finding a man that is self-made. I fail to see the logic in seeing the potential in a thug over seeing what a real brother has obviously accomplished. Yeah, I know I'm going to get a lot of noise for saying "a real brother" but I don't give a damn.

I also know that there are a number of brothers out there that, because they have accomplishments under their belt, they think they're God's gift to women. Those type of men are just as big a' fools as the negroes running around here with their pants hanging off of their ass. Both types of brothers give the traditional good black man a bad name.

You nailed it man.

I don't know where sistas got this idea that a man is a piece of clay they can mold. Pick the already finished masterpiece and be happy. LOL

Yeah and the brothers that have made it but act like idiots do bring the rest of us down. But if I can spot those cats, why cant the women? *smh* Lord knows I'm far from perfect, but at least I make the attempt to be better than the rest of the crowd; but hey, let em keep listening to BET and I'll just laugh on my way to my Maui vacation.......lol

You ain't never lied, Justin. After all, brothers like us aren't the ones complaining--of course, we have our trials and tribulations but what is important is where you end up, not the journey.

I've tried relaying that simple logic to some females and I swear I get this "deer in the headlights look". I'm at the point where I don't care if I never get involved again, I just want to raise my daughter, make my money and achieve my goals......I'm gonna leave the broken hearts and tattered souls to the masses, cause I aint got time to for the pain! HOLLA.....

Because I know how you operate Iron I can feel where you're coming from. I personally have never felt there is a shortage of Black men...its the QUALITY of black men that's short.

But then again, us Black women aren't doing too well in that category either.

MBM, then hook a brotha up!

You're right that the raw numbers put the women at the top of the career ladder at a disadvantage. But I've seen enough already to be convinced that there's more to the story behind the numbers, especially for that vast bulk of the black female population who are not at the top, but who still decry a shortage.

I'll bow out of the discussion though, because my life's experience has demonstrated that my problem is that I'm actually a part of whatever shortage there is. I don't fit any of the standard enumerated categories (dead, jailed, gay, etc.), and that's why sometimes I forget.

Good point Avi! *morning by the way*

We as a people really need to get our act together and get right! If you have motivation, dreams and whatnot, find someone on that same level and work together. Sacrifice short term goals for Long term gain! Look for the good in each other and not the latest trend. And for Gods sake, lets stop listening to 106 and park and Dr. Phil and start listening to our grandparents........

Look, I'm not looking to tear every Black man up or down. I just want one who's after what I'm after. He doesn't have to be a "professional" per say, he just has to be a good man with a good heart that's GOOD for me.

I've been hurt too, I've been cheated on, neglected...the whole nine. But I dont put that on EVERY black man. It was a few chosen individuals that were foul; not all.

You're right about listening to our Grandparents Gambit, they know what's up. That's why they're still together. Nobody is perfect; everybody comes with their bullshit.

Its just up to you what bs you can take and what you can't.

I asked because I didn't see the disclaimer in your list of requirements. I guess you covered it up pretty good though.

Hey guys..........sorry i couldnt get rid of this damn picture.

But i wanted to say that i've read this forum, and for the most part we all of issues concerning this matter. As you guys know im a college, soon to be law student, and it hurts me that i dont have a pool of black men, my age to pick from.........its getting to the point where i dont even look any more. I concentrate on school, and my future career.

Now does that mean i would never date a man that has never been to college.........well no, but it'll be a hardship on our lives.

I never degrade either black men or women, because we both have some work to do.

There's nothing to cover up, HeruStar--Obviously, anyone would want someone in their life that is the most compatible, therefore, they would prefer someone of their own religion. Some people discriminate solely on religion alone, which is ignorant.

Love is big enough for two people to be together, have different faiths, yet, still respect each others choices in faith. Unfortunately, many people don't see it that way. If you want to blame somebody, don't blame me, blame society.

quote:

Originally posted by xxGAMBITxx:
I gotta agree with Iron here.

How many brothers out here are doing the right things, staying on point and are still single? Its not that there is a black male shortage, its that there is a certain "type" of black male shortage. Hey if the gold teeth and flashy rims gets a female hot, I say do your thing, but don't come back with complaining about the man you hooked up with when the real estate agent that got dissed walks past you with a wallet full of money and a cold stare for ya...hehehehehehehhe

This maybe true Justin.........but how many women do you look at, that are average?

Lets face it.........dont you believe that most men, end up picking the same woman, based on just looks..........and then wanna complain when she is not what hes looking for?

Just curious....

I beg to differ, QTY, at least along the lines of choosing a certain type of woman. Of course, men will have a tendency to choose a woman primarily on looks because men are visually oriented. Now, that doesn't mean that it's right for some fool to hook up with some dumb broad with big breasts and a big ass--that's just plain ignorant.

I'll just referr to myself on this issue--of course I want an attractive woman but I want a woman that is attractive to me, not what I think is popular culture's standard of what and attractive woman is.

If you have small breasts, fine, dark skinned, (yummy) fine, if you're slightly overweight, fine, if you're a little skinny and flat chested, fine. The important thing to me is a woman's overall attractiveness and, even more importantly, her personality. I've dated beautiful women that would get on my last damn nerve and I've dated tomboys that I could never forget. The important thing is compatability, love, communication friendship. If you are missing any of those elements, the relationship will not last, at least not in a healthy way.

I hear you Iron. It's true. I personally dont go after LOOKS, so-to-speak. Most of the men I end up with are beautiful in my eyes, but not necessarily "societies idea" of what beautiful is. Half the men I end up dating are average on looks, big in heart and personality.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't give a Super attractive man the time of day, I'm just saying looks, although important to some, dont impress me much.

Hey QTY, you have the most BEAUTIFUL complexion I have seen!! Wow, you're like RED....the color of that clay.... it's gorgeous!!

Just thought I'd share that with you...

I feel you, Avi. If more people would think like us rather than the narrow-minded standards of pop culture, more people would be happily involved.

You know those "super attractive" types anyway, Avi--they know they fit the label, so they run around, acting the fool, ho hopping all over town until that particular fad rolls out, then, they come up empty-handed.

I'm a firm believer in just being myself--that way, if a woman shows interest in me I know she wants me for me.

IRONHORSE

You got me wrong, I'm not blaming you for anything.

Anyhow I noticed in your list of prerequisites that you failed to mention anything related to some type of physical attraction or race. Maybe you don't really have a preference either way, that's cool, I just thought this topic you started implied that YOU were actively seeking a Black Woman.

IMO there is a shortage of black males because of those inconsistencies that you mentioned. Women are becoming much more intellectually active, and they're working alot harder at being successful. The roles have changed. They no longer have to settle. They have options now. This is what I feel creates those inconsistencies. When they find somebody that is complementary, they are placed at a fork in the road, how much they have to "give up" is dependant on what direction the person that has their affection is going in. IMO black women don't like the direction that alot of black men are going in, these men don't make the consensus, again, there IS a shortage of black men.

quote:

Originally posted by AVISUNSHYNE:
Hey QTY, you have the most BEAUTIFUL complexion I have seen!! Wow, you're like RED....the color of that clay.... it's gorgeous!!

Just thought I'd share that with you...

Thanks Avi.......its the hot sun, here in Florida LOL!