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THE WRONG CONCEPT OF GOD KEEPS A PEOPLE POWERLESS AND AIDS THE SLAVE-MASTER

Because of what we were taught for a very long time, we sort of expected that God was going to come and change things, but every God that came just visited for a short while and then left us in the same situation. As is the custom with slave people, our weakness of spirit has often caused us to worship messiahs rather than be INSPIRED by messiahs. When the messiah has ascended, we find ourselves gazing into the sky or passionately intensifying our icon-worship in the hope of salvation.

Little have we realized that messiahs always disappear so that followers would put an end to EXTERNAL worship and find the might and power within.

Therefore it could be said that: a messiah's power to break the chains of oppression only becomes possible when his people reach a point of SELF-KNOWING whereby they are able to stand with FIRM CONVICTION IN THE RIGHT.

Without this important realization, it is easy to become disillusioned and believe that your rights are beyond recover by any means other than by buying them, and it is easy to believe that "it is vain to even waste time talking about getting back your rights in the right way."

Because of this long infatuation with external Gods, there will always be disappointment and disenchantment when such Gods disappear without bringing the long hoped-for change, and the hope for justice grows dim and ultimately slips away.

As a result of such disillusionment, there are now fewer people knocking forcefully on the doors of Babylon and demanding their rights, there are fewer people studying how to obtain justice, there are fewer people struggling determinedly with their minds set on recovering their stolen inheritance, and there are more people studying how to get enough money to buy their rights. David has now told himself, "Goliath is too big, guess it makes more sense to pay Goliath for a pass to a safer place."

From out of this frame of mind there developed a concept of repatriation that is not much different from the days when slaves would work extra hard for the slave-owner and save their pennies to buy their freedom after many years. Without any thought of struggling for reparations, repatriation became limited to the idea of raising enough money to convince neo-colonial African governments that you are "the right sort."

A people who have been robbed of so much for so long, and confined to hell on both sides of the Atlantic, now find themselves weighing the options between HELL HERE AND HELL THERE because their internal God is still locked down in prison.

In the era of U-ropean-imposed globalization, when Black hell has been globalized to the point that Blacks have been robbed and left empty-handed in every single land, it seems so totally God-forsaken that the children of the slave, after so many brutal years of enslavement, should now in the twenty-first century be caught between hell here and hell there. The questioning mind must really ask, "Can the God of JUSTICE do no better?" After slaving for close to five hundred years to build the white man's kingdom, can we now go back empty handed to the wreckage that has been left after the rape of Africa and say with confidence that the God of justice lives?

Were we wrong to expect our external Gods to bring justice, or do we have to internalize God and stand with the power and might that will make justice happen on earth?

Have we been guided by the wrong concept of God that caused us to lose hope in justice because God did not bring it when he came?

And now here we stand at the dawning of the twenty-first century like weary deserted souls, every-one of us desperately seeking refuge SOMEWHERE ELSE, only to discover that black sufferation is everywhere. What a tragedy that "going to Zion" had to mean exchanging one hell for another hell. It becomes an even greater pity if those that formerly decried the inequalities of Babylon find themselves on returning home being viewed enviously as a better-off class because of "the advantages of having been enslaved on a richer plantation."

This is a situation that really calls for a total re-examination of our whole concept of God, because we must ask ourselves, to what extent is our present concept of God influenced by the plantation interpretation that was designed to keep us passive, humble, docile, law-abiding, long-suffering, and non-participatory in the process of African liberation?

What are the consequences of worshiping the external icon above and before The Internal?

What happens when the deceiver slips some of the slave master's doctrine into the speeches of the icon and tells you "Hey, see it here in this speech, your icon said this."?

When to justify exploitation of the masses the speech says, "There will always be rich and poor because there are those who do not like to work" you will not be easily able to identify this as a slave master's doctrine that has been stuck in unawares, because blind worship of the external demands that you do not question "God's words."

Though it is plain before your eyes that the majority of the world's poor are the hardest workers and their poverty is certainly not their just desserts, but rather a result of being robbed and exploited by the rich who work the least, you will not question the validity of such statements... because they are "God's words."

When you look back through the past four centuries on the plantation, you will realize that your parents and your parent's parents, your uncles, and your aunts, and their parents have always been working hard. And yet, four generations later their descendants are still the poorest. Then you get to realize that in the slave-master's system, hard work has never paid anyone except "The Boss" and "The Owner." The truth is that in the slaver's system, getting rich is more the result of one's ability to exploit someone else's labor rather than actually working hard your self.

But if your worship of The External is greater than your attunement with The Internal, you will fear to confront error if it has by some means found its way into "God's words." Countless numbers over the ages have stifled their own inner voice of truth just because of their reverence for that which has been sanctified as "God's words."

What does this have to do with Repatriation and Reparation? It has everything to do with them, because their proper fulfillment demands that we find power within. Ever since the first days on the plantation we have been locked down under a religious spell that serves to keep us weak and powerless. This spell disembodies our own Internal God and fixes our gaze on the external in search of salvation. Even when we attempt to rename God we still find ourselves more attuned to the outer than the inner, and therefore we never connect to the power. This is very serious, because we could find ourselves so preoccupied with "the book that has God's words" that we do not hear the voice of the LIVING I that is speaking to us from right next door.

We have been the most religious and the most devout worshippers of External Gods, and this has caused us to take pride in being "long-suffering" while being very hard working for the "Lord" that owns all the land and waiting for "God" to do his miraculous work.

That is why four hundred years have come and gone and Black suffering still keeps increasing, and instead of committing ourselves daily to the task of African liberation, we wait for miracles from outside ourselves.

Over the past four hundred years, roughly 99 percent of our time and labor has been devoted to making "The false owners" rich, and very little if any has been dedicated to the active struggle for African liberation. We have not seen the necessity to strengthen ourselves with THE SERIOUS WARRIOR DISCIPLINE that is required to make the power of "God" manifest. That is why despite our efforts to intensify our devoutness, nothing has changed for the better. Things only keep getting worse....and the slave master keeps getting richer.

That is the way the slave-master planned it. That is the way the preacher taught it, and that is the way how our people bought into it.

The real God-power that resides within got stifled. It got suppressed and bottled down, and now for many, this marvelous genie is nowhere to be found.

Excessive and exclusive focus on the external icon of God is bound to blind any people to their personal responsibility. In fulfillment of the slaver's plan they will be non-participatory in the struggle for African liberation. Their first tendency will be to slink away from the battle field and search for "a safe hiding place," while hoping that "God" will miraculously take care of the oppressor.

It is time to reclaim your mind and let no one else be its pilot. It is time to balance religious zeal with consciousness.

Ras Jahaziel

www.rastafarivisions.com
Egungun, Egungun ni t'aiye ati jo! Ancestos, Ancestors come to earth and dance! "I'm sick of the war and the civilization that created it. Let's look to our dreams, and the magical; to the creations of the so-called primitive peoples for new inspirations." - Jaques Vache and Andre Breton "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." -John Maynard "You know that in our country there were even matriarchal societies where women were the most important element. On the Bijagos islands they had queens. They were not queens because they were the daughters of kings. They had queens succeeding queens. The religious leaders were women too..." -- Amilcar Cabral, Return to the Source, 1973
Original Post
Oshun, have you looked at our experience in the context of our humanity?

James Cone had liberation doctrine, Marcus Garvey practiced black nationalism doctrine, others used faith as insulation against barbarism, others used it to organize revolts (Nat Turner) etc.

I think it devalues us, our experience, and our push to transcend to paint our historic religious experience with such a broad brush.

That doesn't mean that you don't raise relevant points, but the points don't cover the totality of our religious experience of worshipping an external 'god' in this nation.
quote:
Originally posted by Dell Gines:
Oshun, have you looked at our experience in the context of our humanity?

James Cone had liberation doctrine, Marcus Garvey practiced black nationalism doctrine, others used faith as insulation against barbarism, others used it to organize revolts (Nat Turner) etc.

I think it devalues us, our experience, and our push to transcend to paint our historic religious experience with such a broad brush.

That doesn't mean that you don't raise relevant points, but the points don't cover the totality of our religious experience of worshipping an external 'god' in this nation.


This peice was authored by Ras Jahaziel @ www.rastafarivisions.com as noted on the post.

Also, this guy was talking about 'god concepts' not 'the totality of our religious experience'...I think you are projecting that theme... He probably would argue that Marcus Garvey in particular(since the author is a Rastafarian) as well as the others you have mentioned had the correct 'God concept'...
quote:
Originally posted by Dell Gines:
Sorry, I missed the tag at the end.


You know, a couple days ago when I this apology I meant to post, 'No apology needed', because if you admittedly 'missed something' than it was an honest mistake...and with my signature ect. I could see how it would be missed. But unfortunately, your LIES and complete fabrications over the last couple days cause me to rethink the motivation behind ALL of your posts. See how lying is harmful? You may want to refrain from lying in the future.
quote:
We have been the most religious and the most devout worshippers of External Gods, and this has caused us to take pride in being "long-suffering" while being very hard working for the "Lord" that owns all the land and waiting for "God" to do his miraculous work.


I wonder if this guy (like many) play both sides of the fence. Meaning, one side says that we are persistent at worshiping the God of our oppressors, and the other says we're nothing but a bunch of backbiting, backsliding hypocrites. Either we are all backsliders, or we are "working hard for the Lord", we can't be both. I mean, its enough that its a broad brush, but it can't be two colors.


I'm of the mindset that we don't worship any God, were not wholly devoted to any God. God is an afterthought, not a forethought. As a community we rarely put God first. Now we can't even agree on who God is.

So much for solidarity Roll Eyes
quote:
THE WRONG CONCEPT OF GOD KEEPS A PEOPLE POWERLESS AND AIDS THE SLAVE-MASTER



"If the white man attempts to oppose the Deity's will, by trying to make the negro anything else than "the submissive knee-bender" (which the Almighty declared he should be) by trying to raise him to a level with himself, or by putting himself on an equality with the negro; or if he abuses the power which God has given him over his fellow-man, by being cruel to him, or punishing him in anger, or by neglecting to protect him from the wanton abuses of his fellow-servants and all others, or by denying him the usual comforts and necessaries of life, the negro will run away; but if he keeps him in the position that we learn from the Scriptures he was intended to occupy, that is, the position of submission; and if his master or overseer be kind and gracious in his hearing towards him, without condescension, and at the same time ministers to his physical wants, and protects him from abuses, the negro is spell-bound, and cannot run away."

– Diseases and Peculiarities of the Negro Race
quote:
Originally posted by HeruStar:
I wonder if this guy (like many) play both sides of the fence. Meaning, one side says that we are persistent at worshiping the God of our oppressors, and the other says we're nothing but a bunch of backbiting, backsliding hypocrites. Either we are all backsliders, or we are "working hard for the Lord", we can't be both.

I mean, its enough that its a broad brush, but it can't be two colors.


We can be working hard for the interests of somebody else(the external 'god' concept which has been given to us...or as you call it 'the lord') which is 'backsliding' when it comes to our own interests(the internal 'god' concept which he is promoting)... I think that is what he would say in response(I've read many of his commentaries).


quote:
I'm of the mindset that we don't worship any God, were not wholly devoted to any God. God is an afterthought, not a forethought. As a community we rarely put God first.


African people, no matter where we reside, are some of the most spiritual people on the planet. Now has this spirituality and our god-concept been 'retarded' or 'perverted' somewhat under white patriarchal supremacist oppression and exploitation... Yes.

quote:
Now we can't even agree on who God is.


Who or What? This article points out the 'external personification' of the devine/sacred concept of 'god' as being the problem... So expecting us to agree on a 'who' is part of the problem. I know many people who say the Buddah, Karast, Krishna, Rasta, Chi are the names/titles they choose WHAT to call the devine/sacred aspect, but our definition of all of those titles...our god-concept is pretty much the same.

quote:
so much for solidarity Roll Eyes


A 'god concept' that isn't an external personified(usually masculine) messianic one, allows people of different 'paths' to recognize their 'sameness'. It prevents one from being exclusionary and thinking their is any 'choseness' about spiritual paths or peoples.

Plus none of us are oppressed and exploited for being X-tians, Muslims, Traditionalists, ect. We are getting oppressed and exploited because we are African.
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun:
African people, no matter where we reside, are some of the most spiritual people on the planet. Now has this spirituality and our god-concept been 'retarded' or 'perverted' somewhat under white patriarchal supremacist oppression and exploitation... Yes.


Africans are Spiritual as in we understand and accept the spirit world. However that doesn't mean that we are practicing some form of worship or servitude to any God, Internal or External. Also, the God one serves, or the spiritual system one serves does not cause one's spirituality to be retarded. One's spirituality is retarded by a lack of dedication or commitment to whatever they choose to serve.

quote:
Who or What? This article points out the 'external personification' of the devine/sacred concept of 'god' as being the problem... So expecting us to agree on a 'who' is part of the problem.


You're right, God has many names.

I can't agree though, on our "definition". Even you have broken "what" God is into two seperate definitions, Internal and External.

quote:
A 'god concept' that isn't an external personified(usually masculine) messianic one, allows people of different 'paths' to recognize their 'sameness'. It prevents one from being exclusionary and thinking their is any 'choseness' about spiritual paths or peoples.


It doesn't get more exclusionary than an 'internal' God. Especially if we still can't agree on what God is. An internal-god concept would exponentially increase the factions. Instead of one umbrella, now you have 20 million.
quote:
Originally posted by HeruStar:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun:
African people, no matter where we reside, are some of the most spiritual people on the planet. Now has this spirituality and our god-concept been 'retarded' or 'perverted' somewhat under white patriarchal supremacist oppression and exploitation... Yes.


Africans are Spiritual as in we understand and accept the spirit world. However that doesn't mean that we are practicing some form of worship or servitude to any God, Internal or External. Also, the God one serves, or the spiritual system one serves does not cause one's spirituality to be retarded. One's spirituality is retarded by a lack of dedication or commitment to whatever they choose to serve.


Spiritual/god con-cept has been retarded by the puppet masters. You are missing the entire point of cultural imperialism. It was not done on accident Heru.

quote:
I can't agree though, on our "definition". Even you have broken "what" God is into two seperate definitions, Internal and External.


I haven't broken what God is... I am pointing out the fracture inn our society, as this article is. Don't blame the messenger. Most people are waiting on an external 'god' to save them. Most people in this society do not(because it has been institutionalized for them not to) look within(as well as without in NATURE).


quote:
quote:
A 'god concept' that isn't an external personified(usually masculine) messianic one, allows people of different 'paths' to recognize their 'sameness'. It prevents one from being exclusionary and thinking their is any 'choseness' about spiritual paths or peoples.


It doesn't get more exclusionary than an 'internal' God. Especially if we still can't agree on what God is. An internal-god concept would exponentially increase the factions. Instead of one umbrella, now you have 20 million.


Please don't accuse me of seperating things by pointing out the seperation and focus of this society, or are you under the illusion that this society cultivates a balanced and wholistic god-cocept? I'd think you would have figured out, after all this time, I do not exclusively advocate the internal aspect. The author is pointing out the IMBALANCE that's all. But you knew that... Why do you insist on talking in circles as if you have no idea of the basis posters are coming from in the spiritual section?
quote:
Why do you insist on talking in circles as if you have no idea of the basis posters are coming from in the spiritual section?



Of all the posters, why do YOU insist on responding to me as if you don't know that I KNOW and understand the basis?

If anything I'm just trying to create balance. Everyone's attacking... so I'm defending. Meanwhile no one is teaching, and no one is learning. If we could state our idea without playing "wrecking" ball to the structural integrity of the Black Church, then maybe we could make some progress.

For instance...

Positive statements like this:

quote:
Therefore it could be said that: a messiah's power to break the chains of oppression only becomes possible when his people reach a point of SELF-KNOWING whereby they are able to stand with FIRM CONVICTION IN THE RIGHT


get's shot down by this type of propaganda:

quote:
Over the past four hundred years, roughly 99 percent of our time and labor has been devoted to making "The false owners" rich, and very little if any has been dedicated to the active struggle for African liberation.


When you mix propaganda with truth, the whole message get's distorted.
quote:
Originally posted by HeruStar:
quote:
Why do you insist on talking in circles as if you have no idea of the basis posters are coming from in the spiritual section?



Of all the posters, why do YOU insist on responding to me as if you don't know that I KNOW and understand the basis?


...because you comments, like the ones I responded too earlier, do not demonstrate that you truly do understand the basis.

quote:
If anything I'm just trying to create balance. Everyone's attacking... so I'm defending. Meanwhile no one is teaching, and no one is learning. If we could state our idea without playing "wrecking" ball to the structural integrity of the Black Church, then maybe we could make some progress.


Fire brings rebirth. Sometimes things must be destroyed to be born anew.


quote:
For instance...

Positive statements like this:

quote:
Therefore it could be said that: a messiah's power to break the chains of oppression only becomes possible when his people reach a point of SELF-KNOWING whereby they are able to stand with FIRM CONVICTION IN THE RIGHT


get's shot down by this type of propaganda:

quote:
Over the past four hundred years, roughly 99 percent of our time and labor has been devoted to making "The false owners" rich, and very little if any has been dedicated to the active struggle for African liberation.


When you mix propaganda with truth, the whole message get's distorted.


Exactly, check your context for your own answers...
IS the argument that their is an implicit difference interwoven into the genetic code of blacks that make them some how more 'spiritual'? If so, why does it matter in real terms?

See the problem I have with these conversations is that very rarely do people come and make it plain. By that I am not saying people are being disenguous or subversive, but in my opinion the best way to argue for your position is to argue for it.

IE, you believe X, you believe others should believe X and they should believe X because of X, Y, Z.

We talk about patriarchal european centered faiths, as if they are inherently inferior, but I have not heard anyone legitimately, and pragmatically argue how from a real world perspective.

Historically, there were no warless cultures, no slaveless cultures, no transcendent cultures. Even if their were, the religion of those hypothetical cultures was demonstrated to be insufficient in mass transmutation, and sustainable perfection.
quote:
Originally posted by HeruStar:
It doesn't get more exclusionary than an 'internal' God. Especially if we still can't agree on what God is. An internal-god concept would exponentially increase the factions. Instead of one umbrella, now you have 20 million.


Do we really have to agree on "what god is"? It's the lack of agreeing to disagree, I find problematic.

Folks have been, are, and will continue to abandon old gods in search of new ones whenever they come to their realization it [that particular faith system] doesn't work for him/her.
quote:
Originally posted by HeruStar:
quote:
Do we really have to agree on "what god is"? It's the lack of agreeing to disagree, I find problematic.


I think we should go left, you think we should go right...

We agree to disagree with one another and go our separate ways...

again...

so much for solidarity


No, you do you if it makes you (on a spiritual level) to be the upstanding individual that you are and I do the same. Regardless of the "god" concept one adheres to.


I've said this before yet it still holds true right now, that so long as universal laws are obeyed, it's all good.
...There's your solidarity.
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor:
Dell,

Are you merely disagreeing with how one is arguing there perspective(s)? I'm really not clear on the overall point you're making here with regard to the "Wrong Concept of God"...


Raptor, I am asking essentially two questions and I didn't do a good job of doing it clearly:

1. I have seen argued that blacks are more 'spiritual' is this genetic? First what does it mean to be spiritual, and second if it is genetic, then we have somehow connected the supernatural and the natural together in a superior way to the rest of the world?

2. How do you legitimately evaluate the superiority and inferiority of different religious perspectives without creating a circular argument? In this thread, it seems like many are devaluing patriarch, external god religions. Passively or actively arguing they are somehow 'inferior'. How are they inferior, and how do you arrive at how you measure that inferiority?

Those are two questions I don't understand in these type of debates.
quote:
Originally posted by Dell Gines:
1. I have seen argued that blacks are more 'spiritual' is this genetic?


No, cultural. I suggest reading the book, "Let the circle be Unbroken" for a greater understanding.

quote:
2. How do you legitimately evaluate the superiority and inferiority of different religious perspectives without creating a circular argument?


If the objective or measure is the fostering og 'balance'(internal and socially), than it is quite easy.

quote:
In this thread, it seems like many are devaluing patriarch, external god religions. Passively or actively arguing they are somehow 'inferior'. How are they inferior, and how do you arrive at how you measure that inferiority?


That's a loaded question, I'll try and find link(s) to give you because I don't feel like re-typing the info.
quote:
Originally posted by HeruStar:
quote:
you do you


seems individualistic to me...

Got a problem with that? Or is the concept "universal law" over your head? Care to speak to that? Universal law, that is...

We are not ants driven by the queen's pheromones. It seems to me that's the brand of 'solidarity' you are advocating, with regard to whatever "god concept" all folks should be a part of.
quote:
Originally posted by Dell Gines:
1. I have seen argued that blacks are more 'spiritual' is this genetic?


I can't say I've heard such a discussion, but I'll take your word for it. However, what is that to do with "the wrong concept of god"?

quote:

2. Passively or actively arguing they are somehow 'inferior'. How are they inferior, and how do you arrive at how you measure that inferiority?



Dell, don't me modest. Who are making this claim, and lets go from there.
For me, it's about the colonizing religion hence "the wrong concept of god".

When folks colonize/co-opt a religion. Folks who believe in that religion have been spiritually hoodwinked. That's a form of control if you ask me...

This is why faith is pushed so hard. There are thoughs who don't want folks to snap out of it and do some research and define the creative forces that agrees with ones own since of reason and common since.
quote:
We are not ants driven by the queen's pheromones. It seems to me that's the brand of 'solidarity' you are advocating, with regard to whatever "god concept" all folks should be a part of.



Brand of solidarity?

My "brand" of solidarity would be love based. Love is based on how connected you are. You spout "universal law", but at the same time it's backed by "mind your own business" or... "do you".

Also, universal law implies, that we all 'just know'. But with any religous practice, it has to be fed on a daily basis. It has to be practiced, taught, drilled etc. That's with any path.
quote:
Originally posted by HeruStar:

Brand of solidarity?

My "brand" of solidarity would be love based. Love is based on how connected you are. You spout "universal law", but at the same time it's backed by "mind your own business" or... "do you".

Love is not the focal point. Yet a concept understood throughout all of humanity. Universal, no? Love is not the focal point yet all faiths attest to it's power. Universal, no?

I maintain, so long as the universal laws are obeyed, it's all good. "Love based", you say. As if you or any one spiritual/religious concept owns the patten.

quote:
... with any religous practice, it has to be fed on a daily basis. It has to be practiced, taught, drilled etc. That's with any path.


If you re-read your response, you're essentially making my point minus your groce interpretation of what I mean when I say, "do you". You said it yourself, "with any religious practice". Any. Yet previously you've asserted that the problem is -we have to many different religious (or god) concepts:
quote:
Originally posted by HeruStar:
An internal-god concept would exponentially increase the factions. Instead of one umbrella, now you have 20 million.

Yet they all have one common aim.... To keep the rain of their heads

My rebuttal is we fail to realize what they share in common and to build from there.

Let it be noted that: your implication of universal law is of course like the s.s. minnow. Your sextant can use calibration. Either that, or that's how you and you alone define it.

So let me be clear as to what I mean. Universal laws are concepts used or understood by all. Human commonalities applicable everywhere or in all cases. Peace, humility, kindness, respect/honor, forgiveness, nobility (that is, the state or quality of being exalted in character), reason, justice/righteousness etc. Tell me what religion or spiritual concept does not have these virtues embedded within them?

...You can't.

However these are some of the many universal laws found in all of the religions/spiritual concepts in the world. A rose by any other name now...

I never said nor remotely implied a "mind your business" premise. "Do you" doesn't mean anything remote to "mind your business". It ultimately means do what works for you and I'll do what works for me. Spiritually speaking.

Remember that movie "Menace II Society"? Well, in that movie, there's a character played by Charles. S. Dutton (Roc). He stated to some dudes that, "If Allah makes my son a better man than Jesus, then that's fine with me". Do you under -overstand? A better man. Going from a "punk" to a self-aware conscious upstanding individual.
What society/culture does not understand that, let alone religious/spiritual concept? Christianity didn't do it for him, but should we not embrace the end result? Is that not what it's about? Self improvement?

There are folks who are lactose intolerant, so they seek other means of getting calcium and other essential vitamins and nutrients readily found in milk. Still getting what she/he needs in the end. Concentrate on the latter and you'll overstand.

Okay, I'm getting of your merry-go-round. You may have the last word.
Last edited {1}
quote:
I never said nor remotely implied a "mind your business" premise. "Do you" doesn't mean anything remote to "mind your business". It ultimately means do what works for you and I'll do what works for me. Spiritually speaking.


Confused

quote:
Universal laws are concepts used or understood by all. Human commonalities applicable everywhere or in all cases. Peace, humility, kindness, respect/honor, forgiveness, nobility (that is, the state or quality of being exalted in character), reason, justice/righteousness etc


I've never seen universal law defined that way. Would you be referring to a global oneness? Even in talks of global oneness, those concepts that you've mentioned are considered oppressive. Because the question all ways ends up... WHO DETERMINES MORALITY?

quote:
Okay, I'm getting of your merry-go-round. You may have the last word.


It's not even about that Roll Eyes

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