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Welcome Jonathan....... With that as our experience, Jonathan, who would you support? sck


well, first let me thank you for that welcome. Isome might take note as statistics suggest she will have to deal w/ "white folk" regularly in her life.

we can argue agendas all day long . . . so let's begin! Wink no really, I think that the liberal agenda pisses on fire and does nothing to kill the guy 2 blocks ahead of the engine lighting them.

liberalism/civil rights brought me strict policies on how/who I can hire and fire. great idea up front . . . but i've personally heard too many stories of friends/colleagues who hired blacks that turned out to be just plain horrible employees. (unbelievable stories if we had time) when firing time came, "racism" was sometimes brought up and sometimes legal papers served. so here I am finishing up my doctorate in drilling and will be just another guy on the corner trying to make a living. i'd like it another way, but I will HAVE to think twice about sticking my neck on the line when I get a minority applicant because it risks my business, my employees, and MY FAMILY. yep, it sucks but i'm not some huge white juggernaut, i'll be just another guy on the corner trying to make a living like most white/black/brown/green folks. (hopefully you all will need some dental work, eh? i'm an equal opportunity filler: as long as the color is green! . .)

we could go all day, and indeed the web does. but i think that's it: we all want the same things, I just believe that conservative policies are going for the guy w/ the matches. but what do i know, now where'd i put that high-speed drill . . . .

Jonathan
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Black folk who are Conservative and make excuses for white supremacy and white skin privilege, we don't do that here.
FAHEEM, I'm going to leave a PM for you in a moment... But on this "Make Excuses" bit here is COBB's Testimony despite all facts and evidence to the contrary (listed above in my October 25, 2005 02:18 AM post):
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Americans are perfectly willing and able to judge blackfolks by the content of their character not by the color of their skin. Any attempt to paint America 'white' as in white supremacist is doomed to fail - there is no white supremacist hegemony.
Well, actually that's beyond making an excuse. That's complete DENIAL of the very thing he otherwise did/had to acknowledge:
The [BLACK] ghettos were/are designed to stunt the growth of [BLACK] men, women and children. They are incapable of supporting the full dignity of African Americans.

Whose design? For whose benefit?
We know to whose detriment. That Structural Inequality wherein Black Ghettos were "designed" when White Suburbs were enshrined and reinforced is the epitome of hierarchy. But, with conflational ignorance (i.e. stupid and silly, off-topic logic), APOLOGISTS (both for themselves and James Baldwin's "innocent" [WHITE] people) will try to deny undeniable facts of History & Reality.

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How did creating suburbs drain resources out of the central cities?

In the 1950s something like 80 percent of the building that was happening across the country was happening in the suburbs, so all of our national resources were going out of the central city to support white folks moving out into the suburbs. Now, some of those white folks moving out of the central city were happy to live among black people, but the federal government and certainly Levitt refused that. They said, no this will be a white space. In fact, Levitt evicted some white people who wanted to attract and open up housing to people of color.

So this fundamental framework was established - not just of having white suburbs and concentrating minorities in the central city, but also depopulating and depleting resources for the central city and creating this division between the suburbs and the city. And, I would say, redefining whiteness in a particular way. A good neighborhood became a white neighborhood.

http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-03-06.htm
As boldly noted (and as Cobb indicated himself), STRUCTURALLY ENSHRINED.
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Originally posted by Jonathan:

...Isome might take note as statistics suggest she will have to deal w/ "white folk" regularly in her life.


Really? I would never know have that if it weren't for one of the all-knowing white men (sans any balls) being so kind as to cast a bit of information this way.

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Originally posted by Jonathan:

. . . but i've personally heard too many stories of friends/colleagues who hired blacks that turned out to be just plain horrible employees. (unbelievable stories if we had time) when firing time came, "racism" was sometimes brought up and sometimes legal papers served.


Oh' my! No white folks have ever been just "horrible" employees who went to great lengths to punish their employer when firing time came. No lawsuits (faux sexual harassment claims), no stalking of former bosses, no workplace rampages... nothing. Just a thank you for the opportunity and off they go into the sunset.

You Black folks better straighten up and fly right!!
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While I hesitate to jump immediately to degeneracy lest anyone make false elisions, I think all degenerates should be marginalized. Not with ruthless efficiency of course, merely taken off center stage in political platforms. I'm fairly sure everyone here heard me speak about 'thugs and criminals, lowlifes and trifling fools' and other no-class losers of any ethnicity.


While I'm enjoying this thread, I have real problems with the above. It's spoken like a true despot. Those that you refer to as "degenerates" are already marginalized. I'd suggest that the more effective [though more difficult] would be to engage those "degenerates."
ISOME,

Somehow, Jonathan seems to think that Black folks don't deal with and know White folks (as employers and (fellow) employees) on a regular basis. With his little quip about you, more than likely, having to "deal with White folks everyday" (as if stats are needed to comprehend that) there is a huge disconnect and really huge show of sparkling ignorance on his part.

But as their ideologies are, whether professed to be ColorBLIND or otherwise, WHITE is somehow suppose to be INVISIBLE. So maybe they believe we can't see what's right before everyone's eyes in the workplace where they is a longstanding history of White Mediocrity and just plain "horrible" White employees.

Oh... but I forgot. Those WHITES don't represent a whole race. But the Jayson Blair's of the world carry a burden Whites don't because those White Transgressions are, somehow, excuseable - INVISIBLE. They, Whites, "deserve" those chances Jonathan's logic (a prevailing White one) seems to suggest. Blacks do not.

And somehow he seems to believe (or would rather dare not reference) there are less, if any, workplace anecdotes that can and should be told about "horrible" White employees.
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Originally posted by Nmaginate:
ISOME,

Somehow, Jonathan seems to think that Black folks don't deal with and know White folks (as employers and (fellow) employees) on a regular basis. With his little quip about you, more than likely, having to "deal with White folks everyday" (as if stats are needed to comprehend that) there is a huge disconnect and really huge show of sparkling ignorance on his part.


As usual, his kind is stunned that there are some Black people who really don't give a damn if they're comfortable or not. I was raised around 'em, went to school with 'em, work with 'em... That's how I learned they're not to be trusted and will always judge me and mine by a different, more stringent, set of standards.

His ignorant commentary is mere affirmation that I'm right. I smile at a cracka and treat 'em with a long-handled spoon. They're duplicitous and cowardly, but think no one is able to see them for what they are.
Hey Jonathan welcome. but don't get bent out of shape because they broke you down....it happens to many here at one time or another.
Is that all that you see here is hate? I beg to differ, stick around for a minute and then come to a conclusion.
And since you are here and in light of your put down of "liberals" what is the conservative agenda for Black America? I figure that a conservative would be able to answer this question with a definitive response. I am really waiting for some concrete response as well I'm sure many on the board have been for some time now.
not hate at all...more like pandering on your part of you think we are supposed to forget abiut the trure racial climate of this country because one white guy came in here and decided to be nice....sure we know all white people are not bad...but for you to act like acknowledgement of reality on our part is hate-filled..is insluting at best and implies a limted, close-minded approach to analysis on our part...and if this explanation does not suffice....fuck you too and the horse you rode in on....fair is fair correct?
Good question Yssys,

Since the blkCONs here cannot respond to it, i'll ask jonathan...what benefit do black conservatives find in fighting against policies like AA, which results in lowered black college enrollment upon its repeal? What is their motivation in trying to sell their philosophy to other black people as beneficial? maybe you can answer since you two are of the same philosphical persuasion............
Yssys: thx, first i'm not waving the republican flag but a 'conservative agenda' flag. conservatism (to me) means less from the top down and more from the bottom up. hard work, personal responsibility, LOCAL control and action, etc . . . i'll humbly digress to my world: in the world of dentistry those that end up pulling green out of their wallets and PAYING for their work are the ones that a) appreciate the work and b) do their best to manage/maintain what they have. So while I would LOVE to have health coverage for everyone, it ends up a double-edged sword w/ a bloated one-size fits all bureaucracy behind it. In my life as well, I was on the parental dole through my teens and early 20's. They ended belly-up financially and I was on my own overnight. It was a tough transition but HONESTLY the best thing that could have happened. mom and dad meant well, but I think they made the 'liberal' error in thinking that supporting me was actually doing me a long-term service. read some star parker, i think it's relavant.

Kevin51: my partner in dental school is a black female. i dig her and know she will go far because she didnt grow up w/ her 'defense' goggles on. as a white guy, there's 1 of 2 feelings that i get when i'm talking to a black person: 1: is this person reminding himself that he's dealing w/ a white person? or 2: whew, they don't care and see me as just another person, let's get to talkin. i think that goes close to the issue. i can only guess, but I think that you ponder racism Waaaay more than she does. she's too busy smiling! Smile (oh, and if you're truly liberals here, you'll care about my feelings too!)

oh well, now where was that denture i was working on . . .
quote:
And since you are here and in light of your put down of "liberals" what is the conservative agenda for Black America? I figure that a conservative would be able to answer this question with a definitive response.


They have answered that question over and over again. We just don't want to accept their answer. THERE IS NO CONSERVATIVE AGENDA FOR BLACK AMERICA. Just like there is no conservative agenda FOR poor folk.

I've come to believe that the Conservative Agenda is simple - Subordinate our [Human-kind's] better [caring and advanced] nature in favor of going for self. The second part of the agenda is then FOR everyone else, and is essential for accomplishing the first. This part is to divide every group against itself.

How does that translate to an agenda FOR Black america? It doesn't. Unless you consider its effect on Black people that subscribe to the conservative agenda. It causes Black folk to worship at the alter of individualism in order to escape being painted with the stigmatic brush of being "like them." And, "like them" translates to "Black" or "Poor" or "Racially Proud."

, just like there is no conservative agenda for poor america
quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan:

Kevin51: my partner in dental school is a black female. i dig her and know she will go far because she didnt grow up w/ her 'defense' goggles on. as a white guy, there's 1 of 2 feelings that i get when i'm talking to a black person: 1: is this person reminding himself that he's dealing w/ a white person? or 2: whew, they don't care and see me as just another person, let's get to talkin. i think that goes close to the issue. i can only guess, but I think that you ponder racism Waaaay more than she does. she's too busy smiling! Smile (oh, and if you're truly liberals here, you'll care about my feelings too!)

oh well, now where was that denture i was working on . . .


I have a doctorate, not in denistry yet I have faced allot of racist bullschit in this country.....so did my homie Eric who got his D.D.S. from USC and has clinics in Houston, he went to the same HBCU I did undergrad and he explained to me the subjective nature of denistry and how one instructor can evaluate something as good and the next as bad. He also told me about the extended time black kids are usually put on the graduate when their mediocre white peers are not held to the same scrutiny.

I guess whenever a black person acknowledges his social reality and does not trivialize the many social and economic areas that racism has on blacks daily....and the extent to which it still exists......then they are wearing defense goggles.......oh and by the way....not all white people are racist in my mind....but until they prove otherwise then they are still suspect.....fair enough huh?/ But I see you did not answer my question about the blkCONS....don't worry....there is no logical answer to their mental affliction(s).......and if you really think it is just my proccupation with racism....i can gladly provide you the same social research that quantitatively outlines the disparities of racism and discrimination..I don't do opinions....those are for the marginally read............
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Kevin51: my partner in dental school is a black female. i dig her and know she will go far because she didnt grow up w/ her 'defense' goggles on. as a white guy, there's 1 of 2 feelings that i get when i'm talking to a black person: 1: is this person reminding himself that he's dealing w/ a white person? or 2: whew, they don't care and see me as just another person, let's get to talkin. i think that goes close to the issue. i can only guess, but I think that you ponder racism Waaaay more than she does. she's too busy smiling! (oh, and if you're truly liberals here, you'll care about my feelings too!)


If given the opportunity and time, Jonathon will tell us all what it means to be Black in America and how we should react to America's structural racist system? His own ineptness is laced throughout everything he has written. He writes that he thinks two things when talking to a Black person, admitting that he recognizes that the man or woman he is dealing is Black and in his mind falls within one of the two categories he has conjured up in that little mind of his but unbeknownst to him so it seems, he falls into a similar if not synonymous group like the Black folk he says is reminding themselves that they are dealing with a white person when talking to him. You see, it has already been established by his own words that when he talks to a Black person he reminds himself the person he is dealing with is Black thus he looks to categorize them. Secondly he admits that he come across Black folk unlike himself that give him the "feeling" that they do not care that they are dealing with a white person while he is incapable of doing such because every Black person he talks to he recognizes their Blackness and look to categorize them immediately. Of course these are the only two categories he told us about that he uses to classify Black men and women I am sure there are more and given the time and opportunity he will share them with us.
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
Good question Yssys,

Since the blkCONs here cannot respond to it, i'll ask jonathan...what benefit do black conservatives find in fighting against policies like AA, which results in lowered black college enrollment upon its repeal? What is their motivation in trying to sell their philosophy to other black people as beneficial? maybe you can answer since you two are of the same philosphical persuasion............


Just to clear up this question, when you mention "you two" who are you referring to other than Jonathan?
quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan:
liberalism/civil rights brought me strict policies on how/who I can hire and fire. great idea up front . . . but i've personally heard too many stories of friends/colleagues who hired blacks that turned out to be just plain horrible employees.


He comes out of the gate with the same garbage you hear all the time from undercover bigots with white skin.

First off, civil rights legislation only dictates that you cannot discriminate based on age, race, national origin, etc. when hiring. That's it! There's nothing strict about that, unless you want to discriminate and feel unduly restricted. Second, many states have at-will employment, which allows employers to discriminate based on age, race, national orign, etc. with impunity.

Finally, he clearly implies that there is a risk to hiring Black people because they're likely to be horrible employees that employers cannot get rid of for fear of a lawsuit. That pernicious falsehood ignores: the unemployment rate of Black people being twice that of white people; the numerous studies showing that white people discriminate when Black candidates are up against a white candidate with the same qualifications, experience and education; the Chicago & Boston study that showed if a candidate's name sounded black, they wouldn't even call them back for an interview; and another study from Milwaukee proving that even with a criminal history, white men were more likely to be hired than Black men without one. When companies do hire people of color, if they're racist at the top it is eventually contested by class action lawsuits, which has nothing to do with what he mentioned.

He gets no free pass for his addiction to stupidity. He perceives hate after making illogical and insulting remarks. Geeze, I wonder why?!!

He admits to still being in school, so he hasn't had an opportunity to be an employer! But he knows his white friends must be right about Black people being horrible employees. The workplace rampages of overwhelmingly white folks, in both white and blue collar professions, is of no consequence to his bigoted presumptions about me and mine.

And, I would be remiss if I didn't mention his fantasy definition of conservatism vs. liberalism. That definition is not reflective of reality. Modern-day conservatives aren't espousing anything resembling "bottom-up" management, or some such gobbledy-gook, and the numbers behind proposed universal healthcare weren't mentioned anywhere in here. But, he automatically thinks he knows something that we po' Black folks don't, based solely on his white powers of perception.

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