The Worst Case Republican Scenario

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Originally posted by Cobb:

I've been talking black politics on the web since 1993, and before that on email distributions and BBSs and at Xerox before that way back to 1986. Prior to that I was a national officer of NSBE in charge of getting money into the organization. I started reading Sowell in 1982, but before and since worked for the Rainbow Coalition, Operation Push and the Brotherhood Crusade in Los Angeles. My family has been involved in local politics and organizing black State and County Employees in California including the Black Woman's Forum, the BEA, the King Drew School and MLK Hospital. I was a participant in the very first Kwanzaa celebrations in Los Angeles at the outset. I have relatives in education who have run colleges and taught economics in at the University of Ghana.

I'm not sure I understand your point. There are plenty of other African Americans who have equal or better "credentials" who do not come to the same conclusions that you do. How do you account for this difference?

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Most blackfolks don't have that kind of political background and motivation.

Why do you seem to have to distinguish yourself from "most blackfolks" constantly? Do you see that this appears to be a problem for you?

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I can't change that history and don't intend to make much hay about it. But I think I have something to do with the real discussion about black politics, and I'm going to continue to do so.

I hope - in retrospect - you can read the arrogance dripping from the page. What makes you think you have any greater standing to discuss anything? Beyond that - no one here is questioning your right to have an opinion. We're just questioning your opinion. There's a difference.

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Now let me say it again. The masses of blackfolks are not going to integrate the Republican party.

You're right, but for very different reasons than you propose. Further - there you go looking down at "the masses" again!

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I don't know if you've bothered to read my websites, but I've been doing this for a long time. I think it's an extraordinary thing, not an ordinary thing that all brothers do.

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I'm not sure I understand the dichotomy you percieve. Black unity doesn't work because it patently doesn't. Blacks have chosen to disperse instead of aggregate.

Dude, I posed clear questions that went directly to what you said about Roles & Responsibilities.

You claimed you "acknowledge that everybody in the race has their own roles and responsibilities" and I simply asked you two things, essentially:

#1 - What are those Roles & Responsibilities?

#2 - How are those Roles & Responsibilities at odds with, the opposite of "Black Unity"?

In a family or business, e.g., everyone doesn't have to do the same thing or necessarily even "aggregate" to work as ONE.

You chose to ramble about the Talented Tenth. I simply asked you how was it not a conception of Roles & Responsibilities? Apparently, you said all that for BS purposes because you have chosen not to engage in an exchange on things in contention or things expressed as things of interest. Instead you have chosen to go off on some pre-set tangent about "aggregation" and Progressives and silly logic wherein you don't define Black Unity, don't consider different conceptions of Black Unity but yet insist that your unspecified definition is a working and agreed upon definition.

And that's without considering how you've you run away from the issue of STRUCTURAL RACISM.

Simply, speak to the Roles & Responsibilities "everybody in the race has"... That's not me asking much. You're on record saying you "acknowledge it" (as you present that as some enlightened position but somehow you're not that enlightened enough to say what those Roles & Responsibilities are).

And, again, this is a carry over from the Cosby thread. So by now you should be able to craft some type of an answer. You've had plenty of time.

WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENT ROLES & RESPONSIBILITIES? And the various Parts Of The "Bargain" We're All Suppose To Uphold?

Now ramble on that a bit. You can provide links, etc. Just get to addressing the meat of this exchange between you and me... IF YOU DARE.

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Most blackfolks don't have that kind of political background and motivation.

Why do you seem to have to distinguish yourself from "most blackfolks" constantly? Do you see that this appears to be a problem for you?

Only in your mind.

FURTHER...

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Blacks have chosen to disperse instead of aggregate.

This is dubious. On one hand you're pretty adamant in saying that there simply is no "choice" (with respect to the viability of the ghetto). Here, you try to paint what is essentially a response the Structural Dictates - i.e. "the ghetto is a trap" I have to LEAVE in order to do better - as an effective choice made with a host of equally viable options.

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Today's urban ghetto is exactly the same as yesterday's sharecropping arrangement. Neither points the way towards self-sufficiency.

Huh??
Where is there anything even remoting intimating Ghetto = Self-Sufficiency in my remarks?

Your inability to deal with what I have said and your desire to talk about things I have not, obviously, has you jumping onto some strange tangents - making non-arguments as if your are actually making a salient point. AMAZING...

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But again this is an old rehash of bourgie vs radical. Nothing particularly new.

And your inability to engage and actually contend with things that are actually said (instead of assuming what you want to think about my position with those stereotypical, type-casting views of your own), by far, is nothing new here.

You started off this thread with some quaint notion about AMERICA having only 15% Racism... I contradicted that BS, obviously, with something you just don't know how to address (STRUCTURAL RACISM) and now you're grasping at type-casting, presumptuous straws in an effort not to deal with the problems that pose for your silly statement and your sorry and untenable position promoting the Republican Party as so type of solution or avenue to one.

But, go ahead... Please inform me how the business initiatives of the Republican Party will help get someone out of the ghetto. (I mean, we've all but resigned ourselves the fact the the GOP won't do jack to/for the ghetto itself to make it better. You know... It's a trap and the instructions are to leave.)

But beyond all that, please just advance this one simple part of our dialogue:

#1 - What are those Roles & Responsibilities?

#2 - How are those Roles & Responsibilities at odds with "Black Unity"?

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You claimed you "acknowledge that everybody in the race has their own roles and responsibilities" and I simply asked you two things, essentially:
# #1 - What are those Roles & Responsibilities?
# #2 - How are those Roles & Responsibilities at odds with, the opposite of "Black Unity"?

In a family or business, e.g., everyone doesn't have to do the same thing or necessarily even "aggregate" to work as ONE.

You chose to ramble about the Talented Tenth. I simply asked you how was it not a conception of Roles & Responsibilities? Apparently, you said all that for BS purposes because you have chosen not to engage in an exchange on things in contention or things expressed as things of interest. Instead you have chosen to go off on some pre-set tangent about "aggregation" and Progressives and silly logic wherein you don't define Black Unity, don't consider different conceptions of Black Unity but yet insist that your unspecified definition is a working and agreed upon definition.

I don't have a theory of roles & responsibilities in the race. It's tangential to the question of 'structural racism'. I talk about the Talented Tenth because the unintended consequences of Black Flight was a leadership vacuum. But I believe that the Talented Tenth was has lost its legitimacy in the wake of Civil Rights success, and that calls into question several significant features of black leadership in general. In short, the Talented Tenth was a creation of segregation. I am further saying that the responsibilities thrust upon the Talented Tenth were likewise dependent on a 'small pond' restriction, and that formulation doesn't work in the 21c.

I am saying that black nationalist concepts of unity (Like Ujamaa) http://www.mdcbowen.org/cobb/archives/001311.html are overburdened and outdated.

All this is in response to your criticism of my interpretation of Loury.

What many black conservatives and Republicans are saying is that the ghetto is the plantation. That the structural racism is the politics and culture and the leadership and all of the things that (sorta) work in the ghetto that do not necessarily translate to mainstream success are a crippling dependency. In other words we are championing the universal in contrast to the provincial.

This brings up the fundamental question of the value and purpose of the American mainstream and racial integration itself. And there are implications in that which touch on identity politics and multiculturalism and ultimately to international affairs.

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I don't have a theory of roles & responsibilities in the race.

Then you neither have a counterposition to the concept of the Talented Tenth or Black Unity.

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I am saying that black nationalist concepts of unity are overburdened and outdated.

And I am saying and seeing you not engaging me and what I've said at all. How it is you presume, I guess, my conceptualization of Black Unity without soliciting it is a neat trick. But it is also a very flawed one seeing as how I have not promoted or presented anything but questions to your generalizations and suggested that none of your presumptions are relevant to me.

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All this is in response to your criticism of my interpretation of Loury.

What many black conservatives/Republicans are saying is that the ghetto is the plantation.

And you are still not responding with anything relevant to what I have said. In fact, you are making non-arguments.

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In other words we are championing the universal in contrast to the provincial.

We're (you and I) are not talking about "WE" so much as you and I are discussing the situation as we see it. You are not engaging me by talking about something someone else believes or does or posits, no matter how much you want to assume that might be my position.

It's not that hard. You've done it before. You called yourself challenging me with your Racism Survey. After that, you went on to ask me to define STRUCTURAL RACISM. After that, you've been on this BS trying to suggest to me what ideas do and don't work when I have not expressed anything approaching any of this stuff you seem to desperate to typecast (and then dismiss) my questions to you.

So if you really want to talk about fundamental questions... Then let's do that. But stop pulling up lame talking about IRRELEVANT stuff because you would rather presume than engage.

Back to this...

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I am saying that black nationalist concepts of unity are overburdened and outdated.

And good for you, but what does that have to do with our conversation here?
When did I invoke Ujamaa?

Again, you suggested this 15% Racist America without accounting for Institutional or STRUCTURAL Racism. When that question comes up, you purposely try to go off on tangents talking about Black choice but seem oblivious to the fact (or willfully ignorant of) how the system and structure of the American polity, even the ghetto polity with "Povery Pimps" included are structural features/creatures. That is, it is an instance of American Racism and indicts the very thing you tried to downplay.

The STRUCTURAL RACISM I clearly talked about that you would rather avoid and, obviously, can't contend with is the fact that there are no effective choices, as you said, other than to leave the ghetto and to "disperse". Instead of Integration, there is not-so-unintended, IMO, DIS-Integration. Yet, you're cool with that because that's all cool with your narrow politics and curious views and valuing of people.

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But, go ahead... Please inform me how the business initiatives of the Republican Party will help get someone out of the ghetto.

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Originally posted by Nmaginate:

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Everyone is entitled to their beliefs,
but to want to be different from the core of African America because you are uncomfortable with your own people is an illness.

Truly one of the most quoteable...

**Man....why in the hell can't I come up with such profound statements?....it is like the 2% black support of Bush in the polls....could 98% of people who think alike across the whole educational, economic and political spectrum be that stupid where THEY do not understand the issues....based on history,their own individual experiences and obvious social realities? I doubt that schit for real.....

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I talk about the Talented Tenth because the unintended consequences of Black Flight was a leadership vacuum.

No, I talked about Black Flight and have countered your idea as one of a systematic and structurally reinforced characteristic of a not-so-unintended post-Civil Rights RACIST AMERICA.

But, go ahead, do your Straw Man massacring with the Talented Tenth thing (you brought into this conversation and you saw fit to take it out, Cosby pun intended).

It really was a simple question though.
Was the Talented Tenth a model of Roles & Responsibilities? The clear answer is yes! So really what else is there to say except for you coming up for a "theory" since you say you acknowledge it. Big Pond theory or whatever you call it, a "talented class" the world over are the one's that sustain communities/nations and, naturally, by being "talented" that is their natural role.

But this is all intimately tied into how you view Racism and the ghetto that Racism built and maintains via Black Flight, amongst other things.

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I am saying that black nationalist concepts of unity are overburdened and outdated.

And I am saying and seeing you not engaging me and what I've said at all. How it is you presume, I guess, my conceptualization of Black Unity without soliciting it is a neat trick. But it is also a very flawed one seeing as how I have not promoted or presented anything but questions to your generalizations and suggested that none of your presumptions are relevant to me.

You presume that my arguments about black unity are arguments against you. They are not. So it is quite possible that we will argue for a while before we come to terms with the different way we conceptualize black politics. I've got time.

Let's start this again. I say Institutional Racism is the thing that 'defunded' the ghetto. I say the biggest effect of institutional racism is the legacy of segregated housing. I measure it like this:

Black Homeowner, Black Ghetto Neighborhood = low property value -> less working capital to insure middle class status for the next generation.

ie working twice as hard and getting half as far. The entire far reaching consequences of a racist housing market.

Solution #1.
Black Homeowner, White Neighborhood = equal property value -> equal working capital, etc.

Solution #2.
Enterprise Zone. Black Homeowner, Black Enterprize Zone neighborhood = almost equal property value. etc.

The problem with solution #2 is that very few black politicians of any stripe have managed it. We can watch Kwame try it in Detroit, but the odds are against him. Maxine Waters tried it here in South LA, but failed to attract significant investment outside of black entertainers. However there was some real success in the more economically successful black neighborhoods like Crenshaw. (They said yes to Wal-Mart, whereas Inglewood said no). Mostly, however these were improvements to retail shopping and other consumer benefits, however no new sources of high wage jobs have occured due to Enterprize Zones in Los Angeles.

If you have counterexamples in your communities, please speak up. Also all should recall the Jack Kemp had always been pro Affirmative Action and Enterprise Zones and stuck to his guns, whereas Bob Dole went chickenshit.


Solution #3
Black Aggregation. Black homeowner, Black neighborhood, = lower property value, but beloved community and black control.

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What you appear to be saying to me is that solution #1 is not acceptable because the white neighborhood IS 'STRUCTURAL RACISM', that this taint is an undeniable stench that can't be washed off.

What I'm saying is that the success of the Civil Rights Movement (and let's call it disjoint from residential integration) allowed the Talented Tenth to take Solution #1. You call it Black Flight. And that left the working class blacks in the lurch. There are lots of other factors as well, but this is all we're talking about right now.

are you with me so far?

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In other words we are championing the universal in contrast to the provincial.

We're (you and I) are not talking about "WE" so much as you and I are discussing the situation as we see it. You are not engaging me by talking about something someone else believes or does or posits, no matter how much you want to assume that might be my position.

I don't believe you took the survey. If you did, I didn't see the results.

I'm fairly certain you don't understand my comprehensive view of racism, but we have time for that as well. But here's what I percieve you to be saying.

Essentially the conditions of white supremacy in America are so severe that black alliances with all whites, especially Conservatives and Republicans are highly suspect and incapable of being of any concrete benefit to 'the' black community.

But I don't want to put words in your mouth. I'll ask you straight up, what sort of allegiances outside of the black race should be enjoined by blacks in order to raise the material conditions of the African American standard of living?

I do not believe in brokerage politics. I am not trying to 'represent' blackfolks to Republicans or anyone else. I am trying to change attitudes towards the employment of other strategies of black social power. Yet I percieve that the majority of the black electorate to be inert or regressive in this regard as evidenced by poor voter turnout and a lack of new political organizations. Or to paraphrase Malcolm X, by any means necessary. Any means *any*. So why not try what works?

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Originally posted by Cobb:

quote:

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Most blackfolks don't have that kind of political background and motivation.

Why do you seem to have to distinguish yourself from "most blackfolks" constantly? Do you see that this appears to be a problem for you?

Only in your mind.

That's the best you got? Help me understand why my conclusion is wrong. Almost every post of yours has language which defines the "masses" and then defines you as somehow different than that. Frankly, it's clear who's mind this is in.

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You presume that my arguments about black unity are arguments against you.
They are not.

Spare me. Please spare me when you are going to come right back and defy the BS you just said. You defy it by presuming you're presenting something that I don't understand when the problem here has been your slowness to understand a pretty basic concept.

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What you appear to be saying to me is that solution #1 is not acceptable because the white neighborhood IS 'STRUCTURAL RACISM', that this taint is an undeniable stench that can't be washed off.

First of all, speak about what I have actually said not what I "appear to be saying." That's the definition of non-engagement and the exact type of presumptions that have you prolonging this conversations on tangents and irrelevancies because you keep having trouble, purposely or because you can't remove yourself from the Rhetoric Zone long enough to realize that you are not addressing what I have said.

I've said nothing about the quality of "Solution #1" or #2 for that matter per se. I have said that they both are what they are because of Structural Racism. It is STRUCTURAL RACISM that has made Solution #1 "the solution." It is STRUCTURAL/Institutionalized RACISM that made a White Neighborhood a "good" neighborhood. It is STRUCTURAL RACISM that maintains a system where the only effective/viable solution is to "leave the ghetto."

I have said that that system is not acceptable because it doesn't provide effective choices between #1 & #2. That also betrays, again, your idea that after Civil Rights Black people, the Black Middle class freely choice to move to the suburbs/white neighborhoods out of an array of equal choices. You've just demonstrated (in unnecessary detail, already understood detail) that there were never any such equal, effective choices.

So while you're wasting my time stating the obvious, please explain what this is suppose to mean?

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The white neighborhood IS 'STRUCTURAL RACISM'... an undeniable stench that can't be washed off

I mean, seriously? WTF is that? "An undeniable stench"... WTF is that?

What part of being steered to White Neighborhoods as a structural feature of American society don't you understand of an instance of White Supremacy. There seems to be a huge disconnect or you can only think as far as someone else has mapped it out for but you bring up the Great Migration and somehow don't see this as history repeating itself - as something that reflects a history pattern.

Okay, in the past Blacks left the South for the industrial North for jobs and housing. Now the so-called Integration (a One-Way affair) that resulted from the 60's represents another Migration where Blacks are doing all this moving just trying to catch up and... Somehow, what happened as a result of the Great Migration - i.e. the creation of the ghetto, etc. - doesn't seem to be instructive to you today.

What exactly are you confused about in terms of the long term results of that Migration circumstance? Did it work, long-term, before?

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What I'm saying is that the success of the Civil Rights Movement... allowed the Talented Tenth to take Solution #1. You call it Black Flight.

Ummm... this does not square with your idea that "on the whole, African Americans benefit from [the] choice". You've just said the Talented Tenth, the LIMITED group of Black people that you will not outline any Roles & Responsibilities for - because, apparently, they can't be obligated to or "overburdened" by such Roles & Responsibilities you profess to "acknowledge" - in essence, have "solved" something by "leaving" the ghetto and their brothers and sisters still in the ghetto. But you pretend to have issues with the concept of Black Flight. What else is that but Blacks leaving and making matters worst in the ghetto?

This is a "bourgie vs radical" thing because you're advocating for the "bourgie", their "right" to leave and the benefits it affords THEM, in the place of speaking about effective solutions for ALL Black people wherever they are.

The biggest issue here is how you said with a straight-face that "the evidence points clearly to the fact that on the whole, African Americans benefit" when you are talking overwhelming, from the evidence, that the Black Middle Class has benefitted personally, individually and not Black people collectively hence the ghetto and the lack of an effective choice but to Migrate to the superior position and conditions Whites have long since been afforded. Dude, that's why you call it a White Neighborhood and note that a move to it equals "benefit".

But if your idea of Black Progress is so narrowly conceptualized as to be promote staying one big step behind White people and, as such, never challenging that big head start they got and dealing with the system that keeps that in place and not calling it for what it is, RACISM (Structural Racism), then go ahead and enjoy your neo-Manumission and neo-Great Migration theories. Go ahead and enjoy the fact that you can State The Obvious (and understood) without ever addressing what I have actually said.

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Here's what I percieve you to be saying.

Essentially the conditions of white supremacy in America are so severe that black alliances with all whites, especially Conservatives and Republicans are highly suspect and incapable of being of any concrete benefit to 'the' black community.

Dude, don't ask me shit after you said some BS to put this conversation in a frame that was never a part of the discussion between you and I.

I asked you one simple question:
Please inform me how the business initiatives of the Republican Party will help get someone out of the ghetto.

There is precious little about me being against alliances and a direct question as to whether your stated reasons for favoring the Republican party mesh with your "Message To The Black Man."

It's a very simple question. It essentially says that if the party fosters a policy that addresses something else you have talked about then that alliance is a good thing. But obviously you didn't answer because you don't want to say what the answer is. Might be pretty embarrassing, I guess...

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The biggest issue here is how you said with a straight-face that "the evidence points clearly to the fact that on the whole, African Americans benefit" when you are talking overwhelming, from the evidence, that the Black Middle Class has benefitted personally, individually and not Black people collectively hence the ghetto and the lack of an effective choice but to Migrate to the superior position and conditions Whites have long since been afforded. Dude, that's why you call it a White Neighborhood and note that a move to it equals "benefit".

But if your idea of Black Progress is so narrowly conceptualized as to be promote staying one big step behind White people and, as such, never challenging that big head start they got and dealing with the system that keeps that in place and not calling it for what it is, RACISM (Structural Racism), then go ahead and enjoy your neo-Manumission and neo-Great Migration theories. Go ahead and enjoy the fact that you can State The Obvious (and understood) without ever addressing what I have actually said.

Some Stats:

Regional residence: 55% South (vs. 77% in 1940), 18% Northeast, 18% Midwest, 9% West

52% live in cities, 36% suburbs (vs. 29% in 1994), 12% rural

76% live above the poverty line (vs. 10% in 1940 and 45% in 1960). All-time high above poverty: 79% in 2001
5% rich, 44% middle class, 27% working class, 24% poor (2004)

Overall median household income: $33,178 (2003). Median income for married households: $48,000 (2002)

Top 5 states with highest median black household income: New Hampshire $43,574, Alaska $42,887, Maryland $41,652, Hawaii $41,032, New Jersey $38,513

79% are high school graduates (vs. 14% in 1950)
17% are college graduates (vs. 2% in 1950). Women: 18%. Men: 16%

Top 5 states with largest % of black college grads: Vermont 35%, Montana 33%, New Hampshire 28%, Maine 23%, Idaho 22%

3% have post-college degrees

95% of black children ages 5 and 6 are enrolled in school (vs. 69% in 1954)

School vouchers: 57% support, 43% oppose

quote:

Originally posted by Cobb:


School vouchers: 57% support, 43% oppose

No!

Results of a Zogby Poll - the last number represents the percentage of African Americans:

Of the following ways to use public tax dollars,
which is the best approach to improving public schools?

Reducing Class Sizes - 28 27 36

Improving Teacher Quality - 25 27 23

Increasing Training for
Teachers/Principals - 23 23 26

Providing Parents with
School Vouchers - 12 13 5

Renovating or Building
New Schools - 6 6 6

None of the Above - 3 3 2

Oooh. Interesting. What's the date on that poll?

I sure hope there was a relevant point in those stats Cobb... Amazing how you continue to State The Obvious (i.e. known info.) as a way of avoiding direct engagement.

Please get a clue.

From the graph {right}, it is clear that not only is the Black middle class (using the misleading income range just to be sure) not the fastest growing segment, it has been steadily declining since 1970.

Even using the misleading income range of $15,000 - $49,999, the percentage of Black families within this bracket in 1970 was 56.3% or 11,667,612 people. But, in 1994, the percentage had declined to 46.7% or 13,309,033 people; a decline of 9.6%!

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/race/econ...analysis.html

That's a clever omission, nmaginate. You spin like the pros. What was missing was this:

Dividing the Black population into quintiles (20% intervals), the fourth 5th and the highest 5th are the fasting growing segments. That is, the upper class , has experienced the fastest rate of growth since 1965.

I myself have broken out African America into quintiles, and I find this PBS chart interesting and illuminating. I think the proper way to break it into quintiles would probably be different than the way the author did so - I would basically use a bell curve distribution rather than than the one he selected in order to make his point. As an exercise, I'm going to see if I can come up with one based on a bell curve distribution and see what I get.

On second thought, I'm not sure what that proves unless I had raw data for adjusted dollars. I think it's clear that the US Census uses the same buckets for blacks as anyone else and the straight interpretation of that is what everybody says. The black middle class has expanded.

But the most shocking thing I see here is how narrow the middle class appears to be with respect to income. There's no way that anyone with a household income of $75,000 should be considered rich. It's outrageous.

The point of bringing in the statistics was to counter your claim that blacks are not dispersing. It was also to interject some interesting facts into a discussion that was starting to get boring.

All of these statistics bear witness to the claim which I asserted earlier, that the success of the Civil Rights Movement and subsequent integration has proven net-net beneficial for African Americans in spite of the hypersegregation of the ghettos.

Now here's a direct question for the room. How does one distinguish between ghetto reinvestment and gentrification?

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The point of bringing in the statistics was to counter your claim that blacks are not dispersing. It was also to interject some interesting facts into a discussion that was starting to get boring.

F-O-S... Full of $h*t!!

I made no such claim and your lame a$$ knows it.

What has been boring is how you reached and grabbed at any presumption you could dream up as a way to avoid directly engaging things I've said. But here's a dare for you (since you like it like that):

I dare you to find the claim you said I made and post in your next post. That is, please show me where and what I said that said "blacks are not dispersing."

Ummm... What part of BLACK FLIGHT don't you understand? And, more importantly? What part of me never losing focus on the fact that you're up against the ropes... don't you understand?

Please inform me how the business initiatives of the Republican Party
will help get someone out of the ghetto.

What's so hard about being honest?
I mean, all you CONservatives proclaim to be about good, solid morals - exhibiting good moral character. But it's so funny how so many have some serious issues with honesty.

Again, you know I have said any BS like that.
And, by now you know you're not going to get away with that diversionary BS. So, again:

Please inform me how the business initiatives of the Republican Party
will help get someone out of the ghetto.

That should have long since been addressed by you but you've chosen a cowards route and constantly talked about all manner of things IRRELEVANT.

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There's no way that anyone with a household income of $75,000 should be considered rich. It's outrageous.

And a family making $15K = Middle Class? Don't let your outrage be so transparently selective.

But please let me know when "upper class" and rich communicated the same idea. Once again... UNDERWHELMING...

I don't have the patience to find the quote. The point I'm making is that blacks are dispersing in the post-civil rights era and that on the whole this is good for the material circumstances of african america. If you disagree, then you disagree.

I'm saying that black flight is a positive development and a strategy for improvement. You say that blacks leaving the ghetto are playing into the hands white supremacy.

The business initiatives of the Republican Party, aside from enterprise zones, are the same whether they are mainstream or ghetto.

To the extent that the ghetto is a structural feature of America, the Republican Party as far as I know, has no specific plan to 'bomb the ghetto' which in my estimation is what should be done. However, the philosphy of the Ownership Society applies to all people equally.

http://www.cato.org/special/ownership_society/philosophy.html

I am a supporter of programs like NACA and from my perspective it assists folks directly in line with the fundamental principles of the Ownership Society.

http://www.naca.com/about_naca/100_index.pbl


--
You may not see how your outrage, insults and exclamation points are tiresome but they are.

quote:

I'm saying that black flight is a positive development and a strategy for improvement. You say that blacks leaving the ghetto are playing into the hands white supremacy.

And your inability to grasp simple concepts, things expressed in plain English is all the more underwhelmingly boring...

STRUCTURAL RACISM, simply, is how the way American society is ordered to where in this post-Civil Rights era, it is Black people who have to migrate to White spaces, spaces where Whites are already privileged. Again, there is no effective choice in this matter. For success, for opportunity, Blacks must seek those opportunities, again, in those White spaces. That's the way this racist society is ordered: With White people installed in the positions of power and privilege and like the Great Migrations of the past... Blacks have to move to where the Whites are.

The process of White Flight is perpetual. That is, Blacks will always be a step behind; and that, not by default but by maintained and reinforced design.

But about Black Flight... Seeing as you it's so difficult for you to articulate an answer to what should be (and should have been) something easy for you to answer, it's clear your ideology, party and rhetoric just isn't ready yet.

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I don't have the patience to find the quote.

But I guess I'm suppose to have patience with you making stuff up as we go?

quote:

The point I'm making is that blacks are dispersing in the post-civil rights era and that on the whole this is good for the material circumstances of african america.

And the "dispersing" is a non-point - a non-argument. You know I never said anything approaching the ridiculous idea that Blacks were/are not "dispersing". The very concept of Black Flight, which I introduce and you attempted to defend and legitimate (for no apparent reason I might add)... that very concept/idea contradicts that "non-dispersal" lie you're trying to perpetrate because of your inability to deal...

As far as the "Material Circumstances"...
Clearly you are talking about some seriously disaggregated ideas. You should just be honest with yourself and everyone else and call your position what it is.

Of the collective or overall Material Circumstances of African America is what make it out to be then what in the world was Bill Cosby raging about? What in the world are all the Black underclass and incarceration stats about?

If the Material Circumstances and conditions are what you make them out to be then how come the sure weight of those net-gains have not significantly reversed or mitigated those things Cosby ranted about?

quote:

I'm saying that black flight is a positive development and a strategy for improvement.

Ummm... GET OUT? Is a "strategy"?

As I already asked a long time ago, here:
Get out... BUT then what?
... And for those left behind. What? Get out?
That's it? That's your strategy?

For those who have already gotten out? What are their Roles & Responsibilities in this grand "strategy"? That is, what are they doing, what are they to do since they "Got Out"?

And as far as "positive development" goes... Please leave the non-issues alone. Also, please forsake those narrow, selective and relative terms.

How can you maintain that Black Flight is an overall, "positive development" , when it has contributed to exascerbating the problems of the ghetto? On that topic, I've really only suggested that it is complexed and varied in nature as to be problematic both as a statement of what American society requires for Black upward mobility and its impact on "the hood".

When stats like the near 50% Black male unemployment in NYC are common place and somewhere, in some place there is that 50% dropout rate Cosby talked about and people feel there is a strain of Anti-Intellectualism in Black Culture? What in any of those things amount to a "positive development" when, at least in the minds of people quoting those stats, those are very negative "developments"??

There's a huge disconnect here with you, my dear brother Cobb.

quote:

How does one distinguish between ghetto *reinvestment* and gentrification?

Please reconcile that with this:

quote:

The business initiatives of the Republican Party, aside from
*enterprise zones*, are the same whether they are mainstream or ghetto.

And I won't even bother with that "same" thing...

quote:

STRUCTURAL RACISM, simply, is how the way American society is ordered to where in this post-Civil Rights era, it is Black people who have to migrate to White spaces, spaces where Whites are already privileged. Again, there is no effective choice in this matter. For success, for opportunity, Blacks must seek those opportunities, again, in those White spaces. That's the way this racist society is ordered: With White people installed in the positions of power and privilege and like the Great Migrations of the past... Blacks have to move to where the Whites are.

The process of White Flight is perpetual. That is, Blacks will always be a step behind; and that, not by default but by maintained and reinforced design.

I'm afraid that you have a little white man in your head. You can't see the progress of African Americans for what it is outside the context of comparing it to white this or white that. There's a significant difference to you, between success among whites, and success among non-whites and you privilege the latter and disparage the former. I think this is your error.

You assert that white flight is perpetual, that there is no independence in black success - that it is a zero sum, mercantilist exchange. This too is the error that confirms the first.

--

The black underclass and incarceration statistics are what they are. I don't defend them and I don't spend a lot of time worrying about them. From my perspective, Cosby is simply calling people with no class, people with no class. Conservatives like myself find that kind of honesty refreshing for a number of reasons, chief among them that it doesn't place ridiculous responsibilities on other Americans who have nothing to do with the poor choices of no-class people. It is typical of liberal overproduction that they seek to make political allies out of people who fail to make use of this society's benefits. They seek to bind coalitions of losers, misfits, sociopaths and their apologists into some bizarre moral majority of guilt. Such strategies amount to nothing more than wholesale deception as illustrated by recent liberal attempts to redefine marriage.

There *are* African Americans who deserve no representation as part of a political agenda for those who attend the strength of the nation. Thugs and criminals, low lifes and trifling losers are no poster children for empowerment of anyone, black or white. There is something positively perverse about those whose political energies are invigorated in direct proportion to the degeneracy of their 'constituents'.

OK I got that out of the way back to the issue at hand.

The sure weight of the net gains of the whole of African America is not reversed because America does not consider the fate of all blackfolks to be singular. Americans are perfectly willing and able to judge blackfolks by the content of their character not by the color of their skin. Any attempt to paint America 'white' as in white supremacist is doomed to fail - there is no white supremacist hegemony. It has been busted up. Strom Thurmond is dead, and Trent Lott got his ass kicked for pretending otherwise.

For those who have already 'gotten out', their responsibility is to their families, not to politically ineffective, overburdened and outdated notions of black cultural nationalist unity. In other words, they should pursue happiness. After all, they're free.

I maintain that black flight is an overall positive development because the ghettos are now like Sharpeville - designed to stunt the growth of men, women and children. They are incapable of supporting the full dignity of African Americans. When deprived areas are abandoned, then property values plummet and encourage new development.

The problem is that there are political forces who would have blacks stew in ghetto juices. (Dont get me started about redistricting). Abandoned neighborhoods should be abandoned. When lowlifes start to control the streets and conditions are not right for raising families, people should draw lines and defend those lines. How should decent people move out? The same way indecent people move in, by foot if necessary.

What I honestly believe is that there are millions of people around the world who would come to America, who are perfectly capable of sustaining families in communities that poor blacks abandon. I don't think even poor urban blacks have a culture which can survive below a certain economic level. The problem is that they have not mobilized, and they must to survive at a sustainable level.

Here in Los Angeles, we see it almost in realtime. Poor Mexican immigrants are taking over neighborhoods black working class families have abandoned. Mexicans move West from the East. Blacks move West and to the far East. It's a big huge circle of life.

When I lived in Brooklyn, blackfolks I knew in Prospect Heights would rather die than move to Brownsville. People on the border of Crown Heights wanted to get to Prospect Heights. People in Prospect Heights wanted to get to Fort Greene. Everybody in every community knows these patterns. You move up if you can. Even Biggie knew that.

quote:

I'm afraid that you have a little white man in your head.

And this only compounds the type of BS you have previously fabricated.

quote:

There's a significant difference to you, between success among whites, and success among non-whites and you privilege the latter and disparage the former. I think this is your error.

Where? Don't reproject your own BS. Your error is in this "disparage" notion because you're taking it personal. GET A GRIP!

quote:

You assert that white flight is perpetual, that there is no independence in black success...

Tell me when the outward construct of new "White Neighborhoods" stops then you can lecture me on "zero sum"... Technically, you may have a point on the latter but your point when you reference the Atlantas is another one of your self-contradicted notions. So, I will enthusiastically request you lecture me on the significant examples of Black INDEPENDANT Success. You know, the Black Success achieved without first seeking opportunities in White spaces.

quote:

From my perspective, Cosby is simply calling people with no class, people with no class. Conservatives like myself find that kind of honesty refreshing for a number of reasons...

And as outlined here, CONservative like you have a real issue with their own personal honesty.

"I don't have the patience to find the quote."

Yeah, right... Tell the truth!

quote:

There *are* African Americans who deserve no representation as part of a political agenda for those who attend the strength of the nation. Thugs and criminals, low lifes and trifling losers are no poster children for empowerment of anyone, black or white.

Yes, you did get your revealing confession out of the way. And then you have the nerve to wonder why...

quote:

There is something positively perverse about those whose political energies are invigorated in direct proportion to the degeneracy of their 'constituents'.

Too funny... No wonder why it was so hard for you to come up with an answer about "the ghetto" and your solution is to "Get Out".

Too funny and too revealing...
"Thugs, criminals, low-lifes, trifling losers, etc."

Ummm... Cosby was talking about the "Lower Economic people". He talked about more than just "thugs". But, given the way you typecast, this is nothing out of the ordinary for you...

quote:

Americans are perfectly willing and able to judge blackfolks by the content of their character not by the color of their skin. Any attempt to paint America 'white' as in white supremacist is doomed to fail - there is no white supremacist hegemony.

OMG! You are beyond underwhelming... When did I say something about "white supremacist"? I said WHITE SUPREMACY. Not a doctrine or a mere belief system. A structural, social order. Yes, that STRUCTURAL RACISM that you are still ill-equipped to contend with.

Ummm... White folk sure don't have to "LEAVE" their communities (or didn't in the 60's on up) en masse to find "success". "Success" is underwritten in "their" communities. Hell, you even said so. And I'd be damn if that wasn't what you made synonomous with THE Solution!

quote:

Solution #1.
Black Homeowner, White Neighborhood = equal property value
-> equal working capital, etc.

So, by your own illustration, you highlighted WHITE SUPREMACY via the White Neighborhood; aka STRUCTURAL RACISM via the equity privileging of White Neighborhoods (vs. Black ones).

Yes, there is a history that shows what happens with these Migrations. And even though you like to invoke such things you remain oblivious to their lessons.

But back to your ignorant BS:
Americans are perfectly willing and able to judge blackfolks by the content of their character not by the color of their skin.

Dude, for one, I most certainly, we most certainly haven't talked about ALL Americans. I most certainly have not expressed any conceivable reservation about... "Americans." Having a GWB moment or something?

Also, I have talked about STRUCTURAL RACISM and not "racism" or "racist" in terms of individual attitudes or interpersonal relations between Blacks and Whites... I mean *AMERICANS* (since you grant them that as their default).

So, White Flight too, has a STRUCTURAL element to it that has nothing to do with their personal attitudes towards African Americans. But I'm sure you like actually conducted a real life survey on that and came back with something that repudiated findings like these:

quote:

Insofar as suburbanization has increased, much of it has been into suburban areas that are in effect extensions of central-city black areas, or into suburbs that have become dominantly black. ...

Is this pattern mitigated for blacks of higher income? Not at all. Segregation is as severe for those with incomes above $50,000 as for those below.

Is it the effect of black desires, black tastes? Do blacks prefer to live in black areas? Not really. Blacks have been asked in public opinion surveys what kind of neighborhood they would prefer to live in: "By large majorities, blacks support the ideal of integration and express a preference for integrated living and 95% are willing to live in neighborhoods that are anywhere between 15% and 70% black."

But here we do have a problem in the interaction between black desires as to the level of integration blacks would find comfortable or prefer and the level whites would find comfortable or prefer. Massey and Denton report that many surveys show that "blacks strongly prefer a 50-50 mixture, and that whites have little tolerance for racial mixture beyond 20% black."

http://members.aol.com/digasa/stats5.htm

quote:

Non-intentional or societal discrimination is an equally serious problem contributing to the racial imbalance in housing patterns. Even though non-intentional discrimination is not based on evil motives, minorities are still harmed, both economically and socially. A prime example of societal discrimination and its injurious effect on minorities is the phenomenon of "white flight." White flight specifically refers to the migration of white residents out of a community in response to blacks moving into the community. Whites will tolerate black entry up to a certain level, known as the "tipping point," at which time whites begin to move out of the neighborhood, leaving an all-black community behind.

In a sociological study done in Detroit, Michigan, a large percentage of whites surveyed indicated they would feel uncomfortable living in communities populated by equal numbers of blacks and whites. More specifically, 84% of white respondents stated they would not move into a community composed of 60% black residents, and 64% of whites indicated they would definitely move to another neighborhood.[84] Perhaps more disturbing is that greater than 50% of whites said that they would not move into a community consisting of only 20% black residents. It is also disconcerting that 40% of the whites surveyed indicated that they would move out of an area that became integrated, fearing a decline in property value.

http://www.law.fsu.edu/journals/landuse/Vol141/seit.htm

In other words... your curious "Americans are perfectly willing and able to judge blackfolks..." patently pathetic rhetoric (ummm... How many Americans? 100% - 15%= 85%?) is IRRELEVANT. It doesn't matter. The reality of this racist structure/society and order[ing] of this society does.

Your Disconnect Disserves You At Your Varied and feeble attempts to Dismiss.

quote:

More than 80 percent of whites live in virtually all-white neighborhoods, and nearly nine in ten white suburbanites live in communities with less than 1 percent black populations.

http://www.metrotimes.com/editorial/story.asp?id=2115

You were saying?

quote:

For those who have already 'gotten out', their responsibility is to their families, not to politically ineffective, overburdened and outdated notions of black cultural nationalist unity. In other words, they should pursue happiness. After all, they're free.

In other words, this (below) was nothing but rhetorical fluff; aka BULLSHIT:

quote:

Since I hew to class roles and am not above some combat, I recognize how this split works, and it is my intent to make that choice more clear. Part of the thing that takes me out of the role of a Progressive is that I acknowledge that everybody in the race has their own roles and responsibilities.

Oh... I'm sorry. You already sorta recanted that BULLSHIT didn't you?

I don't have a theory of roles & responsibilities in the race.

When you get your stuff together... Then come back.

quote:

I maintain that black flight is an overall positive development because the ghettos are now like Sharpeville - designed to stunt the growth of men, women and children. They are incapable of supporting the full dignity of African Americans.

Yet you opined that America is only 15% racist...

quote:

Their responsibility is to their families, not to politically ineffective, overburdened and outdated notions of black cultural nationalist unity. In other words, they should pursue happiness.

Cobb, here's a pigeon for the hole you keep digging.

I have run out of patience with your insults. Fuck off.

*Finding it a shame that constructive criticism and legitimate, attack-free debating is foreign to this site*

quote:

Originally posted by Cobb:

I have run out of patience with your insults.

Longsuffering is more like it, for me, for putting up with your repeated fabrications, evasions and total inability to engage.

quote:

Originally posted by Cobb:
From my perspective, Cosby is simply calling people with no class, people with no class. Conservatives like myself find that kind of honesty refreshing for a number of reasons, chief among them that it doesn't place ridiculous responsibilities on other Americans who have nothing to do with the poor choices of no-class people. It is typical of liberal overproduction that they seek to make political allies out of people who fail to make use of this society's benefits.

Aren't you the one calling yourself a church-attending Episcopalian? Doesn't that denomination follow the teachings of Jesus Christ? Christ's words"

"As you do to the least of these my brethren, you do it unto me" (Mt 25 :40) ... Love for others, and in the first place love for the poor, in whom the Church sees Christ himself, is made concrete in the promotion of justice. --Centesimus Annus

A real Christian – someone imbued with the spirit of Christ – advocates more help for the suffering, NOT LESS. And less is what the right-wing pseudo-Christian conservatives advocate.

quote:

...as illustrated by recent liberal attempts to redefine marriage.

Homosexuals who want to marry are not necessarily "liberal". Your party has Log Cabin Republicans, and you know that. Same-sex marriage is not a liberal issue, it is a homosexual issue. Considering the undeniable cadre of homosexual politicos claiming the same party that you do, it is best to put this argument into the dust bin.

quote:

There is something positively perverse about those whose political energies are invigorated in direct proportion to the degeneracy of their 'constituents'.

What better example of degenerate and depraved behavior than kidnapping people and shipping them off to torture-friendly countries? People are rounded up w/out due process, in countries outside of U.S. jurisdiction, and sent to be tortured, a universally condemned practice.

What is more degenerate and depraved than underfunding medical care for the physically-maimed soldiers repugs classify as having fought for our freedom?

There could be a daily posintg of a conservative republican who is arrested for solicitation of sex, child abuse, caught sending emails to teenage boys asking for sex, accused by a spouse of forced anal sex etc., etc. Degenerates inhabit groups across the board, but being poor is not the same as being a degenerate.

interesting thread. i followed Cobb over as I read him regularly. he's got more balls than I do, that's for sure. something's not working that's been used for 30 years now. oh well, what do I know. . . I'm just a white dentist O but I'm w/ him.

quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan:
interesting thread. i followed Cobb over as I read him regularly. he's got more balls than I do, that's for sure. something's not working that's been used for 30 years now. oh well, what do I know. . . I'm just a white dentist O but I'm w/ him.

Yeah, most white folks are lacking in that department.

quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan:

interesting thread. i followed Cobb over as I read him regularly. he's got more balls than I do, that's for sure. something's not working that's been used for 30 years now. oh well, what do I know. . . I'm just a white dentist O but I'm w/ him.

Welcome Jonathan. Is it the party that's not working or the entire system? If it's the latter, then don't we have an obligation to our children to make the best decisions for our community based upon the best information we have whether that choice is a perfect one or merely just the better one?

I have plenty of information that the Republican party is not a friendly place for me and that they do not have my interests at heart. I have other information which suggests that the Democrats are not ideal for us either, but that our opportunity for progress is better there than with the Republicans. All of the legal/legislative gains that African America has ever experienced has come from a progressive or liberal agenda. At the moment, progressivism is something that is captured by the Democrat Party - hence where our support lies at the moment. Conversely, conservatism, which by definition is about preserving the institutions and programs of the past, has done nothing but seek to suppress my existence and rights and opportunity here. With that as our experience, Jonathan, who would you support?

quote:

Yeah, most white folks are lacking in that department.

well, that was well thought out. you'll go far.

quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan:

quote:

Yeah, most white folks are lacking in that department.

well, that was well thought out. you'll go far.

AND...THE DOOR CLOSES.

BAM!!

That was an excellent catch MBM.

And an excellent effort to open a free exchange.

I would seem you showed the ability to reason, independently.

For some folks, that's scary stuff.

PEACE

Jim Chester

quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan:

quote:

Yeah, most white folks are lacking in that department.

well, that was well thought out. you'll go far.

Don't worry, lots of us have learned not to live for your approval and to not fear your disapproval. ...too bad about your lack of balls, though, really.

Feel free to answer MBM's questions. It would be a more constructive use of your time.

quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan:
interesting thread. i followed Cobb over as I read him regularly. he's got more balls than I do, that's for sure. something's not working that's been used for 30 years now. oh well, what do I know. . . I'm just a white dentist O but I'm w/ him.

The last thing we need here is a lecture from a white person who for all intents and purposes believes he knows what is best for Black men and women without ever having to be Black. We have more than enough disagreements on our own that we can wrangle over and we can do without the white cheerleaders who think their agreement with a Black person add authentication to what is said. You should retreat back to the Blogsphere where you can remain an anonymous white dude who cheerlead for Black folk who are Conservative and make excuses for white supremacy and white skin privilege, we don't do that here.

The last thing we need here is a lecture from a white person who for all tense and purposes believes he knows what is best for Black men and women without ever having to be Black. We have more than enough disagreements on our own that we can wrangle over and we can do without the white cheerleaders who think their agreement with a Black person add authentication to what is said. You should retreat back to the Blogsphere where you can remain an anonymous white dude who cheerlead for Black folk who are Conservative and make excuses for white supremacy and white skin privilege, we don't do that here.---faheem

Damn!!

I wish I'd said that.


PEACE

Jim Chester

quote:

Aren't you the one calling yourself a church-attending Episcopalian? Doesn't that denomination follow the teachings of Jesus Christ? Christ's words"

"As you do to the least of these my brethren, you do it unto me" (Mt 25 :40) ... Love for others, and in the first place love for the poor, in whom the Church sees Christ himself, is made concrete in the promotion of justice. --Centesimus Annus



A real Christian – someone imbued with the spirit of Christ – advocates more help for the suffering, NOT LESS. And less is what the right-wing pseudo-Christian conservatives advocate.

When I decide to speak for right-wing pseudo-Christian conservatives, I'll be certain to send you an email and respond to you more seriously.

In the meantime consider simply that I find it much more important than the average joe that the line between responsibilities of the state and the church be separate. So I find absolutely no reason to be conflicted to advocate Christian charity while insuring that it's not done with government funds.

As for the matter of same-sex marriage, I'll say simply this. Liberal activists are campaigning on the basis of the lie that the *difference* in Lesbian/Gay/Transsexuals/Transgendered relationships is real, but not real enough to be sufficiently not the basis of a good marriage. Again, I draw a line because I believe that political activism may cause churches to rewrite their sacraments of Holy Matrimony. For me this is unthinkable. Further, liberal activists conflate rights with privileges and try to piggyback on the rhetoric of the Civil Rights Movement, that doesn't fit.

Rosa Parks didn't take her seat for the sake of Adam & Steve.

--
While I hesitate to jump immediately to degeneracy lest anyone make false elisions, I think all degenerates should be marginalized. Not with ruthless efficiency of course, merely taken off center stage in political platforms. I'm fairly sure everyone here heard me speak about 'thugs and criminals, lowlifes and trifling fools' and other no-class losers of any ethnicity.

You should have also heard me say that Cosby emphasized the model of bourgie behavior expected of the college student should be applied to 'the lower economic people' as part of their bargain to participate in the new America that the Civil Rights Movement created. Degenerates not allowed. Apologists for degenerates need to be politically slapped about.