Pagan, African Egyptian, or Evil origin?
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/religion/amen1.html
http://www.free-minds.org/articles/history/amen.htm
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quote:The word "amen" is a Hebrew word. The word is directly related -- in fact, almost identical -- to the Hebrew word for "believe" (amam), or faithful. Thus, it came to mean "sure" or "truly", an expression of absolute trust and confidence.
quote:Posted December 15, 2005 02:43 PM; Melesi said: The fact that "Amen" came from Jewish sources into Christianity is acknowledged in the Catholic Encyclopedia Vol. 1 1907.
quote:Originally posted by Melesi:
But that is beside the point.quote:
How wxactly, I could have sworn that 'Amen' was the topic at hand.quote:The Hebrew word "amen" does not relate to divinity. It is a common word, used in everyday speech, preserved in such conversations and teachings as "amen, amen, I say to you that..." and he wasn't speaking to or of a god or of anything divine.
It is used commonly, not reserved for cultic speech.
You have no idea how funny what you just said is. Look up the work 'cult' and others may get it...I doubt you will. BTW I could have sworn all Hebrew words have a mystic meaning, that the whole language has numerical corrolations ect. The entire speach is 'divine' to people that read Hebrew. Didn't your Jewish studies inform you of that melesi?quote:The oldest use that we know of of a word is not necessarily the source. One could ask, for example, where the Egyptians got it. Unfortunately, that seems to be a fruitless search, for the records are not extant, and probably could not be. So we would have to be careful in saying that it is the source. It could be, but we do not know.
Actually, the Egyptians say in many documents that they recieved their knowledge from 'up' the Nile from it's sounrce, a.k.a. the interior of Africa...Upper Egypt being "south" in our upside down world view. The Neteru/Netcher 'Bes' is the anthropomorphic phenotye made devine of the Twa people(Pygmies) that the Kemetic (Egyptians) scribes gave praise to as the source of their knowledge. This is documented in the Medu Neteru...a book you obviousely skipped. These people are found at the source of the Nile and in the Congo Basin. African either way it goes. I'm no tribalist/micronationalist.
Thanks for once again proving your lack of knowledge about ancient KMTic texts.
Why do you insist on speaking on things outside the Bible when you know you haven't studied them?
Let's infuse some logic here. The Hebrews of the Bible dwelt in KMT(Egypt) for how long by their own recoeds? And didn't have a religion mentioned in their own Holy Book until contact with Egypt. The same people(Egyptians) that had been worshipping one of the manifestations of God known as Amen. Moses(Moshe) was "learned in all the ways of Egypt" but some how, they just "happen" to use the same word and there is no connection.
Even thought there are examples aplenty of how the Helio Biblio(Sun Book) has plagerized portions of scripture directly from the papyrus of ani? Which Moses and 'his' people were exposed to on a daily basis during most of their 'Old Testament' stay in Egypt. I have the texts if you want to read them.
I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.quote:There are false etymologies aplenty, based on exactly the kind of thinking that this amen/Amen supposition has in it. "Semite" does not come from the Latin "semi" but form the Hebrew "Shem." Greek has two words spelled identically that mean two different things--"thumos" is "anger," and "thumos" is "lentil." The only difference is the accent. We have words that mean the opposite of themselves: "cleave" can mean to "cut in two" or "cling together as one."
So be careful when tracing the etymology of a word. If there is no relation between two similar-looking words in meaning, then it's most likely that there is no relation between them at all. Amen in Egyptian was a god. Amen in Hebrew is a common word meaning "absolutely," or "truly," or even "me, too," plus the meanings of security and firmness.
quote:Originally posted by Melesi:
oshun,
Oh, come--I did not say that Jesus could have been Germanic. That you would say so shows that you just might be deliberately misunderstanding me. I said that, since we do not know what he looked like--he is not described--then we have to hold open the possibility that he looked like anything, including that Germanic picture. I do not think that the possibility is great that he looked like that, but the point I made was not about his appearance but about our proud certainy in what we cannot be certain about. It was about us, not about him.
quote:I am familiar with the word "cult." It's meaning is a bit larger than our modern popular definition of an incorrect worship or belief system. The term "cultus" (from which "cultic" comes) is a neutral term--a word without derogatory or positive meaning indicating a system of worship.
quote:Not all words in Hebrew had cultic or mystic meanings. In fact, the majority of them did not. The fact that letters were used as numbers does not mean that the letters and therefore the words have numerological meanings. "Negeth" does not; "shamem" does not--or can you find some mystic meaning in the words for "before" and "appall"? It isn't the "speech" that is divine to speakers of Hebrew, [b]it's the word of God.[/]
quote:And where the Egyptians received their knowledge is not the same as tracing an etymology. From where "up the Nile" did the word come? Which language? What did the word mean there and then? How was it used? Who used it? That's what I mean, and that information for the word "amen" is very likely not available. I notice that you did not provide it, despite your deep reading in Egyptian literature.
quote:Ok, they did not use the same word with exactly the same meaning. I mean, "amen" to describe all sorts of things and conditions is clearly not the name of a god. I did reference a few of the uses of the word in a previous post in this thread. You might want to look them up.;
quote:Everyday speech, not special, not divine, not referring to God. Just a common, everyday use of a common, everyday term. That is not proof of Egyptian gods in Hebrew.
quote:As for Moses, yes, he was learned in the ways of Egypt, but from the time of his self-imposed exile from Egypt he learned things a bit different from things Egyptian. I'm sure that he could learn after he left Egypt?
quote:You appear more certain about these things that you should be.
quote:The English KJ translation of the bible uses AMEN (which is not even an English term) The bible warns of worshiping the sun god. (AMEN RA= SUN GOD) And we go to church on SUN DAY and say AMEN. Everyone always wonders about those tombs in Egypt, and the symbols of Horus ISIS AMEN are all througout them. In the old testament of the bible it calls Lucifer the morning star. Above we show a similarity between HORUS and JESUS. And HORUS is also considered the morning star. Now in the NIV version of the bible, Jesus is called the morning star in the book of Acts. (I'll make sure and look it up)
quote:christianity is not authentic, and literally/virtual came direct from the walls of the pyramids
quote:Originally posted by HeruStar:
The Bible may be inconclusive, but Christ and His teachings are indisputable.
quote:Would you be refering that to me?
If so, I'll be the first to tell you that I've read plenty about the paganism of Christianity. I'm not a trapped in the closet Christian, I've explored, and have found the inconsistencies and imperfections that could be said to be found in Christianity. Honestly, I could care less, mainly because I've found Jesus Christ to be true and consistent. The Bible may be inconclusive, but Christ and His teachings are indisputable.
quote:This makes NOOOO sense whatsoever
The ONLY direct source of information about Jesus and his teachings is the Bible. So if the source is tainted then what does that say about what flows from it?
quote:1. The 'lying lore of christianity' 'still' has the man named Christ depicted in white imagery.
Does this mean that those who hunger and thirst for righteousness will NOT be filled?
2. The gospels are 'all' in direct contradiction with one another. The names are even bogus: Mark, Matthew, Luke and John are all English names and not their original African Names.
Is that a fact? could you list just one MESSAGE that bears any resemblance at all toa a contradiction between Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John? If I told you that the white man coined the name sugar, would that make it any less sweet?
3. This link provides great enlightenment:
http://www.awitness.org/essays/torahrf.html
wasn't enlightened, more like bored out of my mind
4. Paul never even met Jesus yet Christianity embraces his claims and assertions...
You are just too cute
quote:Originally posted by HeruStar:
lets say the Bible is tainted...
How does that view detract from Jesus' message? Is there any evidence that proves that Jesus is a liar? Shall the meek not inherit the earth? if a man asks you to walk with him one mile, and you go with him two, will this measure of love prove to be useless? Is that message tainted with lies and deceit? Help me out Brotha, because I'm trying to understand where your confusion lies?
quote:posted by HonestBrotha:
It's also a known fact that there are indeed discrepancies between the different Gospel texts. The list is well-known and available to anyone who cares to look for them and were noticed by Christians themselves as early as the 3rd century
quote:1 He places the purging of the temple at the BEGINNING of Jesus' ministry whereas Matthew, Mark and Luke place it at the end (even implying it was the reason for his crucifixion: "When the chief priests and scribes heard of it, they kept looking for a way to kill him"). in John here is no connection at all drawn between Jesus's driving money changers out of the Temple and his death. Why? Probably because John wanted to emphasize different tings about who he THOUGHT Jesus was. John's INTERPRETATION was that it was Jesus' mission to purify religious practice and so he puts it at the beginning of the story. And obviously you can't crucify him at the start of the story and so John erases the connection.
quote:Originally posted by HeruStar:
alleged Discrepancy or blatant Contradiction, please pick one...quote:1 He places the purging of the temple at the BEGINNING of Jesus' ministry whereas Matthew, Mark and Luke place it at the end (even implying it was the reason for his crucifixion: "When the chief priests and scribes heard of it, they kept looking for a way to kill him"). in John here is no connection at all drawn between Jesus's driving money changers out of the Temple and his death. Why? Probably because John wanted to emphasize different tings about who he THOUGHT Jesus was. John's INTERPRETATION was that it was Jesus' mission to purify religious practice and so he puts it at the beginning of the story. And obviously you can't crucify him at the start of the story and so John erases the connection.
quote:Originally posted by HeruStar:
It's funny how we are expected to be so open-minded about other beliefs, but we can't expect the same open-mindedness and logical deductive reasoning from said religous whiners![]()
quote:Originally posted by HeruStar:
don't flatter yourself
quote:What most Christians seem to mean when they accuse others of not being open minded is that we won't cave in and confess that Jesus is the WAY and there is no other *
quote:He places the purging of the temple at the BEGINNING of Jesus' ministry whereas Matthew, Mark and Luke place it at the end (even implying it was the reason for his crucifixion: "When the chief priests and scribes heard of it, they kept looking for a way to kill him").
in John here is no connection at all drawn between Jesus's driving money changers out of the Temple and his death. Why? Probably because John wanted to emphasize different tings about who he THOUGHT Jesus was. John's INTERPRETATION was that it was Jesus' mission to purify religious practice and so he puts it at the beginning of the story. And obviously you can't crucify him at the start of the story and so John erases the connection.
quote:HeruStar said: however I'm able to find spiritual relevance and significance in much of its teachings,
quote:Originally posted by HeruStar:
Again, I can't speak for 'most' Christians, what I notice about the double-standard of anti-fundamentalists is that they go into the religous debate with a strong bias, and accept any argument in their favor, credible or not, logical or illogical
quote:
I don't know what book of John this guy was reading but...This is frustrating to me because when I read John, I can sense his kindheartedness and his passion for getting across Jesus' message, moreso than a chronological history of his sermons. Most people don't THINK when they read the Bible soo...
quote:
he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money and overthrew the tables
(there goes that theory): And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Fathers house an house of merchandise. And His disciples remembered that it was written, the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up (retrospective validation)... DESTROY THIS TEMPLE, AND IN 3 DAYS I WILL RAISE IT UP...
(this next part is significant, because clearly the author of the conspiracy ignored this part)
quote:
Does John's use of foreshadow invalidate his book?
quote:
however I'm able to find spirritual relevance and significance in much of its teachings, I sift through the racist and political issues, and focus on the message.
quote:"A double minded man is unstable in all of his ways".
quote:Originally posted by HeruStar:
Call it like you see is Oshun, but Ima stand mine regardless...
quote:Originally posted by HonestBrother:quote:
however I'm able to find spirritual relevance and significance in much of its teachings, I sift through the racist and political issues, and focus on the message.
Heru, if you really mean this then maybe my last post is more nitpicky than it needed to be. Because I too can read the Bible (including John) and get a lot of spiritual significance out of it.
I chose to pick on John because, for all of its virtues, that particular book has been historically one of the main sources for Christian exclusivism and intolerance.
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh to the Father but by me John 14:6
It's the ONLY Gospel which claims Jesus was Divine ("Son of God" is used in the other 3 Gospels but that title was not a claim to Divinity as it was used by several Jewish sects of the time)
If you want a really spiritual book, check out the Gospel of Thomas. There are a lot of similarities between this Gnostic text and John. But Thomas takes a less exclusive point of view. It's the view of some prominent Biblical scholars that John was trying to discredit Thomas (which was written FIRST, by the way).
quote:December 15, 2005 02:43PM--Melesi said: First, the second website that fine points us to doesn't always know what it's talking about
quote:Posted December 20, 2005 06:11PM Oshun Auset said--Isn't the oldest use of a word the origin? Especially considering the "Hebrews" didn't have a religion(by their own Sun Book/Helio Biblio) until they were in Egypt? hhmmmm...
It is KeMeTic... Amen... 'The hidden one'.(Sound familiar?)
quote:Originally posted by HeruStar:quote:"A double minded man is unstable in all of his ways".
Mr. Fagunwa, brotha that I have the utmost respect for...
I don't think James was referring to people like me.
I admit to not being 'like-minded', but I am in know way, shape, form, or fashion, 'double-minded'.
quote:Originally posted by Fagunwa:
Translation: Don't "you people" know that nothing spiritual originated in africa unless christ dropped it off there?
quote:Originally posted by Fine:
Do your homework, Melesi!
Hebrew is an off spring of the Akan language...
quote:Originally posted by Melesi:
1. Meaning is as the word is used. Nobody uses the word like that, therefore that's not what the word means.
2. Moreover, the etymology may not be right. It could be from a similar but different Hebrew word, amman.
3. Be careful of similar-counding felicities. They are usually wrong.
4. Be careful of your motives.
I know nothing of etymology.... what is the method? And why if the same word pops up in major religions around the world as well as translated from ancient texts as such is this not cause for serious investigation?quote:Originally posted by HonestBrother:quote:Originally posted by Melesi:
1. Meaning is as the word is used. Nobody uses the word like that, therefore that's not what the word means.
2. Moreover, the etymology may not be right. It could be from a similar but different Hebrew word, amman.
3. Be careful of similar-counding felicities. They are usually wrong.
4. Be careful of your motives.
I agree with Melesi here (will wonders ever cease?)
But it frequently happens in linguistic research that one encounters similar sounding words. Just because two words sound or look similar it doesn't mean that they are related in any way. Similarity can be coincidental. So there are methods that are more or less reliable for determing if they are truly related. In the absence of evidence all else is speculation.
quote:Originally posted by virtue:I know nothing of etymology.... what is the method? And why if the same word pops up in major religions around the world as well as translated from ancient texts as such is this not cause for serious investigation?quote:Originally posted by HonestBrother:quote:Originally posted by Melesi:
1. Meaning is as the word is used. Nobody uses the word like that, therefore that's not what the word means.
2. Moreover, the etymology may not be right. It could be from a similar but different Hebrew word, amman.
3. Be careful of similar-counding felicities. They are usually wrong.
4. Be careful of your motives.
I agree with Melesi here (will wonders ever cease?)
But it frequently happens in linguistic research that one encounters similar sounding words. Just because two words sound or look similar it doesn't mean that they are related in any way. Similarity can be coincidental. So there are methods that are more or less reliable for determing if they are truly related. In the absence of evidence all else is speculation.
Peace,
Virtue
quote:Yemaya--Even a child can surmise this is presented with the facts.
quote:Yemaya--OK etymologists, what is the meaning of Amen-Ra as it relates to the language spoken by the Egyptians and their former "Jewish" slaves?? How was it used in context at that time so that at least I can get an understanding of the difference between "Amen" and "ammam".
Again I'd like to raise the issue of the "Jewish" people being enslaved in Egypt for many generations and adopting their habits and language, which is evident even today.
Please post a link if you all can find one.
quote:Originally posted by Fine:
You do not intimidate me, Kresge...
You and Melesi make quite a pair of ostriches...!
quote:Originally posted by virtue:
May I ask?
Has not the system of agnostic learning been set up by a European bias?
Is not it in our (non-European) interest to seek out alternative ways of looking at things that have been overlooked out of bias or hatred?
Is it not true that many of the historical and "official" documents most scholars use to base their work presently based off the "recognized" scholarship of those in the past with a consistent bias?
If I am wrong forgive me..... I do earnestly seek truth......
However, it is a little troubling to me that bias is often used against anyone that questions (even with hubris) the status quo.... and the status quo happens to maintain a history that is biased..... against us.....
I see nothing wrong with investigating..... sincerely..... and questioning..... and re-evaluating..... but we all bring biases to whatever we do..... that doesn't mean I don't believe in objective research.......
it simply means that as far as I can tell, historically many new theories were challenged as crackpot, having ulterior motives, or plain unscientific (or un-whatever the standard measuring bearer was at the time)--especially in European history........
I guess...... I find it interesting that a word like Amen that has been translated in different languages....... to be spoken today as ....... "Amen"........ is used with frequency in many spiritual fields.... with some importance.....
I think it warrants investigation........
The motive for investigation may be biased.....
however, the method of scholarship does not have to be..... nor does it have to be shut down because of another bias.....
the bias of keeping the status quo....
Please advise....
Peace,
Virtue
quote:Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Doesn't it work both ways?
I mean, to you who, believe for example, that the Greeks borrowed all their best ideas from Egypt, and are believed by history to be great on account of it:
Wouldn't it be in our best interest to welcome all the best ideas from Europe? I mean let's ABSOLUTELY plunder Europe for the best ideas it has to offer ... Not just Europe... But Asia.... Africa.... Let's dig good ideas from everywhere...including our own
And then use them to help us do * our own thing *?
Instead of shooting down our own thinkers with the tired charge of "it can't be right just because it came from European scholars" ?
Wouldn't your black intellectuals tend to be among the best judges of what the best ideas from Europe or other places are?
We just keep going nowhere with this knee jerk anti-intellectual reaction...
quote:Originally posted by Kai:
A strong gravitational field will bend light..A strong agenda toward an idea will bend the truth...The truth must be stronger than the whims of those who would keep the truth buried.
quote:
Sometimes you must stand on that which makes the most sense..even when the rest of your field rejects the idea..this is the root of all ingenuity.
quote:I won't pretend to be an authority... I only double majored in Linguistics and studied 10 langauges... but sometimes - in fact, often times - words can resemble one another and still be completely unrelated...
quote:Originally posted by Kai:
Peace....
Okay...But in this case...the root use of Amen is Kemetic. The root of anything Semitic is African. If you accept the biblical version of history then Shem(Semites) is the brother of Ham(Kam).
quote:Majadi--"hebrew" origin
quote:HonestBrother--the Semitic languages probably arose in Africa and yes ancient Egyptian and Hebrew are perhaps brothers (probably more like cousins - certainly in the same family)...
quote:Originally posted by Fagunwa:
I don't see how fat men re-living their high school days equates with a people correcting their distorted history. I always find it interesting how some justfiy quoting their bigoted oppressors opinions calling it "scholarship" as if these entities are the final authority.
quote:Originally posted by HonestBrother:
I'm not an X-tian...
Anybody whose been paying even a bit of attention would know that... I tend to be quite vocal on the subject... Remember me?
Melesi and I agree on PRACTICALLY NOTHING ELSE...
But we agree on this... WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU????![]()
quote:Sis Fine
Keep searching and beating that drum some people hear you.