note to the board:

the very fact that people are continuing to read this thread, speaks for itself. the fact that one person has become obsessed with the topic, even tho he's been dismissed by the one person his heart aches to go back & forth with, speaks for itself. all the while this person claims the topic has been "officially dismissed" but he's still up in here begging and hoping for attention from the one who kicked him to the curb. that speaks for itself and is also another example of one "violating laws of intelligence", as malcolm would say.
oh...... here are some definitions:

quote:
Definitions of CORROBORATE on the Web:

To strengthen with other evidence, to make more certain.
www.austin.cc.tx.us/audit/Glossary/LetterC.htm

confirm: establish or strengthen as with new evidence or facts; "his story confirmed my doubts"; "The evidence supports the defendant"

validate: give evidence for; support with evidence or authority or make more certain or confirm; "The stories and claims were born out by the evidence"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

A hypothesis is corroborated if it is subjected to an experimental test which cannot manage to falsify it. (See FALSIFICATION) (MP) CORROBOREE It is said that the word is the English version of the Australian Aboriginal term "carib-berie" or ceremony ritualized in song and dance. Traditionally, corroborrees re-enacted the Dreamtime or Creation stories and were also activated for sacred, law education or war-like purposes. ...
www.biol.tsukuba.ac.jp/~macer/biodict.htm
quote:
Originally posted by 1milehi:

those who accept the golden image of malcolm - even tho they never knew him - act as tho everything the brother did was on point. well, clearly it wasn't. no matter how awesome malcolm was, he was not perfect and everything that went "wrong" in his relationship with the NOI was not any & everybody else's fault but his. he has to bear some of the responsibility for certain things.



Manning Marable said WHAT to CORROBORATE the issue you came here with?
Note this does not CORROBORATE...

quote:
marable talks about how malcolm broke with the NOI in 1964 and spent most of the following months, prior to his assassination, outside of the country. likewise, bro. wazir mentioned how malcolm's sister had to tell him to come back from africa to take care of the organization (s) he was in charge of. when he came back, that's when malcolm was killed.



NON-SEQUITUR

Latin for "it does not follow." In formal logic, an argument is a non sequitur if the conclusion does not follow from the premise. It should be stressed that in a non sequitur, the conclusion can be either true or false, but the argument is a fallacy because the conclusion does not follow from the premise.



Factoids about Malcolm's tour of Africa, etc. in 1964 were not part of THE ISSUE YOU CAME HERE WITH.
quote:
malcolm as hero and elijah muhammad/NOI as villains


You came here with that ISSUE.

Manning Marable CORROBORATES your view of the issue... WHERE? HOW?



Towards that end, this statement of yours (below) = NON-SEQUITUR "it does not follow."


quote:
marable talks about how malcolm broke with the NOI in 1964 and spent most of the following months, prior to his assassination, outside of the country. likewise, bro. wazir mentioned how malcolm's sister had to tell him to come back from africa to take care of the organization (s) he was in charge of. when he came back, that's when malcolm was killed.
quote:
Originally posted by 1milehi:
for the THIRD time - did you even read the article umbra?

good god amighty!

as far as NOI mythology - what does that have to do with the information in the interview ... the interview that you didn't even read and yet are all up in the discussion. what are you afraid of?

the NOI teaches that white people were grafted out of black people .. you know grafting, the scientific process that white folks are utilizing today in their labs? if you think that is mythology what is your explanation for how white people came to be on the planet?

let's hear it.


I was originally gonna stay out of this thread, but as a student and lover of evolutionary biology, I simply can't let that one pass.

White people "came to be" in the same process as all other people. As a member of NOI, I understand you may be opposed to evolutionary biology, and thus have little regard for what I'm about to write. Even so, there is a wealth of information and evidence which give credence to the field, so whether you accept it or not is a matter of faith and personal belief, and not lack of evidence on the part of Science. Now that I've finished my disclaimer, on to the science part!

Modern humans all evolved on the African continent, most likely in Eastern Africa. From there, there were several waves of migration, with some groups going to other parts of Africa, and the rest making their way through all the habitable continents. As humans dispersed into new habitats, time, selective pressures, and genetic drift acted upon them. Some traits were more successful for certain environments, thus over eons (assuming these environmental conditions were relatively constant) these traits were positively selected for. Traits which proved to be too much of an hindrance were negatively selected against. Thus good traits propogated and bad ones were shoved to the wayside. Now, some traits were "nuetral", meaning they had no negative or positive impact on the individual or group as a whole. Sometimes these traits would go away on their own, other times the frequency of these traits found within a population would just happen to increase, to the point where it was common for most people to possess them. This is random drift to fixation.

The populations within each migrating group may have come from one originl mega group, but each subgroup may have had certain random characteristics. When these groups are isolated and small, prolific mating will produce inbreeding, which would circulate those characteristics at a higher frequency. Each subsequent generation that breeds increases the frequency of the characetristic, until it becomes fixed within the whole popuation of that subgroup. This is called a bottleneck, because a relatively few people who mated streamlined their genes into a ballooning population. When groups are isolated, there is little to no gene flow between groups, thus some populations will retain or develop characteristics not found in others.

Gene flow bottleneck, selective pressures, and random drift is what created so many unique ethnicities, of which White Caucasians are one. You may ask how they got pale skin or blue eyes. Just last year a study was published which showed that pale skin is the result of a combination of alleles for a pigment gene which does not "turn on", so to speak, and thus produces little pigmentation in their melanin. The reason their genes for this trait didn't "turn on" could be selective--white skin had an advantage in colder climates--or it could have been a random, nuetral mutation in one person in drifted to fixation. Or it could be that it was originally a nuetral mutation, but new selective pressures turned it from neutral into advantageous. The same can be said for blue eyes.

OK, that is an extremely simplistic argument, but I hope it correctly conveyed what I'm trying to say. Sorry 1milehi, but this myth of some evil scientist grafting white skin onto Black humans a few millenia ago is, scientifically speaking, utter BS.
I would agree its highly unlikely but very practicle.

Use the same process as you do with plants. Africans have a dominant and recessive gene (meaning can produce the blackest of pigmentation or the whitest of the white of pigmentation Albino) whites only have the recessive gene, you could have a colonly of lets say light skin people and keep grafting until you get the recessive gene, meaning only producing Albinos.
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
I would agree its highly unlikely but very practicle.

Use the same process as you do with plants. Africans have a dominant and recessive gene (meaning can produce the blackest of pigmentation or the whitest of the white of pigmentation Albino) whites only have the recessive gene, you could have a colonly of lets say light skin people and keep grafting until you get the recessive gene, meaning only producing Albinos.


Um, no, no, and NO. "Dominant" and "Recessive" genes are present in everyone, for just about every different trait you can imagine. OK, here's another of my infamous overly simplofied explanations:

Let's say you have allele A and allele a. These are two versions of a single gene.

Let's say AA=red, and aa=white

If A is heterozygous with a, meaning Aa, but the output is still red, A is dominant and a is reccessive because a requires two homozygous alleles to be expressed (aa). Any gene (or allele) which masks or hinders the effect of another gene is dominant. Any gene or allele that requires a homozygous pair to be expressed is recessive. If Aa gets you an intermediate, like pink, then the alleles are said to be co-dominant

Black Africans with no Caucasian genes will never create a Caucasian person. While the original modern Homo sapiens was probably "Black", a white baby didn't just appear suddenly and voila, white people. If you were to take African albinos and breed them for generations, you would likely get a group with pale skin and red eyes, but as far as their other features are concerned, they'd still look distinctively Black. Race is based on more than skin color. So yes, Black people can make a "white" person, but this is a "pigmentless" person who is otherwise phenotypically Black. Furthermore, two white people can make a "Black" baby. There is a pituitary condition called Nelson's syndrome, of which hyperpigmentation is the most obvious sign. Thus, a lily white couple could produce a child that is quite brown.

At any rate, your theory doesn't hold up because using your logic if I took a group of very swarthy whites and made them breed for a few thousand years, I'd get a Black African. Uh, no.

None of the above involves grafting. And just for good measure, humans have been around far longer than 6-10 thousand years.
I disagree, two white people cannot produce a black baby,please show me an example where that has happend,
now i might bye someone who may have been passing for white but actually have some fairly recent african heritage , but two Albinos, i dont believe it
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
I disagree, two white people cannot produce a black baby,please show me an example where that has happend,


Two white people produce a "black" child in the same fashion that two Black people produce a "white" child. Albinism is a pigment defect, as is Nelson's Syndrome. For the former, the body doesn't produce pigment, creating a colorless person who may have otherwise been jet black. For the latter, hyperpigmentation can make the afflicted individual significantly darker than they would otherwise be. Think of them as opposites.

The most prominent real-life case of this is Sandra Liang, whose parents were white Africaans from South Africa. Genetic test verified that both mother and father were indeed her biological parents, nor did they have any recent or detectable African admixture.

I respect the NOI for their efforts in Black communities and their rhetoric of self-sufficiency, but I fear for the scientific progress an NOI dominated community would make. Extraterrestrial motherships collecting Blacks, mad scientist creating white poeple--this is far beyond the basic scientific ignorance and illiteracy the general public possess, into the domain of crackpot cult conspiracy.
uppity, what i'm going to do is cut and paste your post to me into another topic entitled "The Origin of the White Race". it really should be a topic unto itself and the discussion can flow there.

peace~
from the democracy now interview - this is manning marable talking about alex haley rewriting, changing or altering certain text in malcolm's autobiography:

quote:
...What is striking is that from almost from the very
beginning of certainly by September and October of 1963, as the book was
being constructed, that Haley was vetting -- asking questions to the publisher and to the publisher's attorney regarding many of the things that
Malcolm was saying. He was worried that he would not have a book that
would have the kind of sting that he wanted. He was also concerned, to use
Haley's phrase, about the purported anti-Semitism of Malcolm X, and so he began to rewrite words or passages in the book without Malcolm's knowledge....


do you believe this? if you do, does that mean you have to accept that "the autobiography of malcolm x" should really be described as an "autobiography" - quote/unquote, as bro. wazir stated it? evidently the book is not an "autobiography." evidently the book does not portray a true history of malcolm x that has not been tampered with, changed and altered by those who had an agenda to demonize the NOI and further advance integration and the COINTELPRO-type goals of the FBI.

so those of you who have read the "autobiography," and have had great respect for it over the years - what do you think about someone of manning marable's status saying these things about the book? his words indicate that malcolm's true history/biography has yet to be told.
these are word for word quotes from both interviews which show how certain information from one brother complements/corroborates/confirms what was stated by the other brother:

manning marable:

quote:
.....you know, Malcolm broke with the N.O.I. in March 1964,
and in that last 11 chaotic months, he spent most of the time outside of
the United States. Nevertheless, he built two organizations in the spring
of 1964.
First, Muslim Mosque Incorporated, which was a religious organization
that was largely based on members of the N.O.I. who left with him. It was spearheaded by James 67X or James Shabazz, who was his chief of staff.
Then secondly was the Organization of Afro-American Unity. This was an
organization that was a secular group....


abdul wazir muhammad:

quote:
...[Malcolm] left here and headed to Africa and stayed gone so long that his sister, who was part of [his] movement, said, "'Look Malcolm, we need your leadership. What you do over there's all fine but you need to come back and lead the movement that you're heading up." He came back here and that's when he was killed....


manning marable:

quote:
...I believe that if we could see the chapters that are missing from the book, we would gain an understanding as to why perhaps -- perhaps -- the F.B.I., the C.I.A., the New York Police Department and others in law enforcement greatly feared what Malcolm X was about, because he was trying to build a broad -- an unprecedented black coalition across the lines of black nationalism and integration. And in way, it presages 30 years ahead of time, the Million Man March ....


abdul wazir muhammad:

quote:
...[Malcolm] had a mindset, ideas and things that he was trying to do before time.....You can't roll back the hand of time and the way that Malcolm was going in leadership, Min. Farrakhan has developed to and surpassed that....


of course we all know that min. farrakhan is the one who called for the million man march so i hope it's clear why i say the statements complement or corroborate each other.
another thing from the democracy now interview, manning marable - who i assume is more respectable and acceptable to some/many on this board than "the NOI" - said there were 3 groups who had an interest in "eliminating" malcolm's voice and vision. he identifies the three as: "the NYPD," "the NOI" and elements of malcolm's own entourage. so out of all that, how is it that some/many have come away with the view that the NOI "blew malcolm away?"

these are manning marable's words:

quote:
...I believe that the evidence will show that there was not so much a conspiracy, but a convergence of interests with three different groups that had an interest in eliminating his voice and his vision.
The first group, obviously, is the NYPD, the New York Police Department.

They had their own red squad, which was called BOSS, the Bureau of Special Services. They had managed to infiltrate Malcolm's organization and the nation of Islam. And, of course, the FBI. There were over 40,000 pages of FBI documents of which only about half are currently available to scholars and researchers. I think that this 40th anniversary of the assassination is a good opportunity for us to say that now is the time to declassify all FBI material on Malcolm X. There really is a need for us to challenge the US government for its refusal to open up its own archives 40 years after the death of Malcolm. All of that material should be made available to all researchers and all scholars and to the family of Malcolm X. So that -- I believe that the FBI clearly was concerned, wanted to monitor and disrupt Malcolm wherever possible. Gene Roberts, one of Malcolm's chiefs of security, was an NYPD undercover cop. He later went on to bigger things by being a disruptive force inside of the Black Panther Party. So, that's one element.

A second element was the Nation of Islam. Lynwood X, who was one of the leaders of the New Jersey mosques of the Nation of Islam, was at the Audubon Ballroom sitting on the first row. He came in early to observe the events on the 21st of February. He was taken aside by Benjamin 2X, close associate of Malcolm and also Ruben X, Ruben X Francis, who was the chief of security. Lynwood said he just wanted to check out what Malcolm had to say.

But my sense is that perhaps his role was more complicated than simply that of a bystander. We know from Talmadge Hayer, one of the men who carried out the assassination, who was shot by Ruben X as he tried to flee the Audubon after shooting Malcolm X, we know that Hayer confessed years later to his Imam in prison that there had been a walk-through a week prior to
February 21st at the Audubon Ballroom. So, there was deep knowledge on the part of members of the Nation of Islam regarding the planning, in sight of the
OAAU and the Muslim Mosque Incorporated regarding the events at the Audubon. They knew when they were going to be there, they knew what the schedules were.
How did they know this? Well, in part because they had informants inside of the organization, and in part because, obviously, they had information that hardly anybody else had. They also knew something else clearly, that on the day of the assassination, and here we get to the third group --

I think the third group are elements within Malcolm's own entourage. Elements within Malcolm's own entourage, some of them were very angry with some of the changes that had occurred with Malcolm. One source of anger, curiously enough, was that -- was the tension between MMI and OAAU, that the MMI, the Muslim Mosque Incorporated, these were women and men who had left the Nation of Islam out of loyalty to Malcolm, but then Malcolm continued to
evolve rapidly....
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
malcolm as hero and elijah muhammad/NOI as villains


You came here with that ISSUE.

Manning Marable CORROBORATES your view of the issue... WHERE? HOW?



Towards that end, this statement of yours (below) = NON-SEQUITUR "it does not follow."


quote:
marable talks about how malcolm broke with the NOI in 1964 and spent most of the following months, prior to his assassination, outside of the country. likewise, bro. wazir mentioned how malcolm's sister had to tell him to come back from africa to take care of the organization (s) he was in charge of. when he came back, that's when malcolm was killed.



1Mile, you keep highlight more and more NON-SEQUITURs The stuff just does not "follow."


quote:
so out of all that, how is it that some/many have come away with the view that the NOI "blew malcolm away?"


You're fighting your own shadow. You pretended to have a point, something that would suggest that Marable has would CORROBORATE your idea about how Malcolm wasn't "the hero" people want to make him out to be.... but YOU KEEP HIGHLIGHTING EVERYTHING BUT SOMETHING BUT THAT!

All you've done was prove that your position here is nothing but NOI Apologetics and how you take issue with some imaginary "some/many" people who are hardly represented here. Worst than that, you claim there is "CORROBORATION" but you keep pointing to common knowledge and/or insignificant factoids as if you can make a big case out of small disconnected parts.

Yours is a failure of reasoning... It does not follow that, since Wazir and Marable "agree" on Malcolm's well document travels that whatever idea you have about Malcolm not being as much of a "hero" in your or Wazir's account has any more credibility just because there is "agreement" (the stuff is common knowledge) on an UNRELATED point.

And Marable does not exonerate the NOI. Even with the FBI and Malcolm's entourage, the NOI is still part of the group of villains. Where are your comparative quotes from Marable and Wazir on those things?

Did Wazir say FBI + NOI + Malcolm's Entourage = Assasination?


Please find something other than NON-SEQUITURS.
Last edited {1}
Two white people produce a "black" child in the same fashion that two Black people produce a "white" child. Albinism is a pigment defect, as is Nelson's Syndrome. For the former, the body doesn't produce pigment, creating a colorless person who may have otherwise been jet black. For the latter, hyperpigmentation can make the afflicted individual significantly darker than they would otherwise be. Think of them as opposites.

The most prominent real-life case of this is Sandra Liang, whose parents were white Africaans from South Africa. Genetic test verified that both mother and father were indeed her biological parents, nor did they have any recent or detectable African admixture.

I respect the NOI for their efforts in Black communities and their rhetoric of self-sufficiency, but I fear for the scientific progress an NOI dominated community would make. Extraterrestrial motherships collecting Blacks, mad scientist creating white poeple--this is far beyond the basic scientific ignorance and illiteracy the general public possess, into the domain of crackpot cult conspiracy.

The explaination, someone was lyin about their heritage. Like I thought



Hi googoodadaga,

First, let's take a look at the most famous example of this phenomenon:

Sandra Laing
http://www.suntimes.co.za/2000/01/02/millennium/mil03.htm

It has been proven with DNA testing that Sandra is indeed the child of
two white parents.

What this is called is being a product of a recessive gene, slang for
it is being a "racial throwback."

I know about this because I have a friend named Rose, she is a racial
throwback. Waaaaay back long ago, on her Mother's side, her [french &
white] great-great (or great-great-great) grandmother had a child by a
man that was from Saudia Arabia. That was a girl child. Since then, in
that lineage, once in a while a seemingly white woman married to a
white man will give birth to a female child that looks somewhat Asian,
has dark hair and dark skin.women's children are affected). In Rose's
family, there were two generations between the throwbacks. She has
seen pictures of her long deceased female ancestor that looks like
her. Not surprisingly, Rose's sister is also a throwback, are
classified as WHITE on their birth certificates, and they both had
TOTALLY WHITE CHILDREN. But rest assured, the throwback gene rests in
those female children born to the throwbacks (Rose and her sister) and
will pop-up again in future generations.

The fact is, sometimes a mixed racial couple won't produce a "blended
baby," --one gene is dominant and the other race is recessive until
future generations. Science does not know why this happens, only that
through DNA testing, it is a scientific FACT that it DOES happen.


REFERENCE [definition]:

Inter-Racial Dating, Inter-Racial Marriage, Judgement Day
[please ignore the racist tone of this page, skim to the definition of throwback]
http://www.stormfront.org/truth_at_last/archives/interracial.htm
..."The Racial Throwback: This is when one parent in a mixed marriage
suddenly learns that he or she has distant black ancestors. THE TRUTH
AT LAST has carried several shocking stories about "White" couples
having a black baby. One was Abraham Laing, whose daughter was born
black. After her birth, he discovered that he had one mulatto
grandparent. The book, America's Greatest Problem, by the eminent
Prof. R.W. Shufeldt and published by the F.A. Davis Co. Shufeldt
wrote:
"A young American artisan of excellent racial background met a
pretty girl in Virginia and in due course married her. At the end of a
year a boy was born. He was black as coal. The hair was kinky with all
the typical Negro facial features. The mother swore that the husband
was the father. He then quietly went to work to trace his wife's
ancestors. After much trouble and expense, he finally ascertained that
her great-grandmother was a Negro. It was in this stock, through cross
breeding with Whites, that his young wife saw her pedigree. Her first
child was simply a reversion to the black ancestry on her maternal
side. I have heard of several other well -authenticated cases of this
nature..."


Here's an article/essay that describes a BLACK couple that give birth
to a WHITE child!

The symbolism of black and white babies in the myth of parental
impression - Critical Essay
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2267/is_1_70/ai_102140946/pg_7


This article is good, plus it's "Part 7" so you might want to check out the site:

How Do We Inherit Our Skin Color?
http://www.multiracial.com/readers/tenzer2.html


Hope this helps clear up your confusion!


~~Cynthia



Do you have a white boyfriend????
Speaking of Crackpot theories people believe them everyday..


Millions of people actually believe Jesus whas produced by marry without a father but the seed came directly from god.

People actually believe Jesus actually rose three days after his death.

The thing about all religion is it all has a certain amount of superstition with it.
for those who are following the malcolm history series on the site,the follow up feature has been posted and can be read at:

The History of the NOI in the West

(excerpt)

quote:
This is a follow up to The Black House News (BHN) feature, "The True History of Malcolm X and the NOI, " an account relayed by Abdul Wazir Muhammad (AWM), Emeritus Minister for the NOI who has long resided in the Los Angeles, California area. Formerly the Western Regional Minister for the NOI, he remains active today traveling and assisting the younger ministers now serving in the NOI's vast Western region. In this BHN interview, he shares more of his recollections of Malcolm X and others including Brothers Jabril, Lucius Bey, Abdul Allah and Khalid Abdul Muhammad..... (Read the full article)
What do you have to say about it? Did you teach Malcolm? Did you make Malcolm? Did you clean up Malcolm? Did you put Malcolm out before the world? Was Malcolm your traitor or was he ours? And if we dealt with him like a nation deals with a traitor what the hell business is it of yours?

- Louis Farrakhan, 1993 Savior's Day address


Do I need to know any more "true history"?
This thread was funny as hell. I haven't stopped laughing since the NOI guy accused people that don't believe 'their' stuff as 'listening to the white man'. Like Islam isn't from Africas other colinizer/oppressor(Arabs). JudeoIslamichiristiansanity has god to go.


Not to even mention this dude...


Wallace Farrad Muhammad

Come the hell on.

Malcolm died for us just like Martin. We can know what they both were about from their own words which are well documented.

Fuck what YT or the NOI says.
Peace....



quote:
What do you have to say about it? Did you teach Malcolm? Did you make Malcolm? Did you clean up Malcolm? Did you put Malcolm out before the world? Was Malcolm your traitor or was he ours? And if we dealt with him like a nation deals with a traitor what the hell business is it of yours?

- Louis Farrakhan, 1993 Savior's Day address


Do I need to know any more "true history"?



Yes, we did deal with Malcolm the same way any Nation would deal with a traitor. We applied justice pursuant to the law of the Nation Of Islam. What did this look like? NOI rules do not permit the murder of any member. A person found guilty is given time out of the Nation.

Malcolm was excommunicated from the Nation Of Islam.

Those who claim an NOI conspiracy are disagreeing with the Nation, and they are disagreeing with Malcolm himself, who publically stated that he no longer believed that the NOI was behind the attempts on his life. The assasination of Malcolm in 1965 was not the first attempt on his life.

Malocolm specifically pointed toward a government conspiracy...The government pointed the finger at the Nation, and too many black people were eager to believe the charge despite the fact that the FBI has admitted that several of Malcolms closest security memnbers were paid agents of the FBI.

It is eassy to take a comment by the Minister and spin it....



Kai
Peace....



quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
This thread was funny as hell. I haven't stopped laughing since the NOI guy accused people that don't believe 'their' stuff as 'listening to the white man'. Like Islam isn't from Africas other colinizer/oppressor(Arabs). JudeoIslamichiristiansanity has god to go.


Not to even mention this dude...


Wallace Farrad Muhammad

Come the hell on.

Malcolm died for us just like Martin. We can know what they both were about from their own words which are well documented.

Fuck what YT or the NOI says.


Oshun, I think this statement is kinda harsh. The Nation Of Islam does not credit Arabs for the creation of Islam. We agree with the Arab world that the Arabs were the last to receive a message which our people already had for a very, very, long time.

"Islam" is an Arabic term, however the meaning of "Islam" which is peace, or Universal equilibrium is a very well known and accepted concept among our people going back into the far reaches of antiquity.

In ancient KMT we called this concept Maat. Maat represents balance, peace, and universal order. In the Ifa tradition practitioners are seeking inner peace by properly aligning the Ori.

Islam, as revealed to the Bedouin Arab, was new to the uncivilized, however, to the old african it was simply the same truth revisting through the form of one unlearned.

Oshun, I guarantee that you do not know the man Wallace Fard Muhammad who you have maligned. Even if you reject the message that He brought, I would think that any student of African faith would respect someone who did so much to uplift our fallen people. He was one of the first to teach the lost children of Africa that they were not Negroes. He was one of the first to raise the inner person of our people.

He was jailed, and prosecuted on our behalf.. Perhaps you do not agree with his message, however, he has provided no basis for your contempt.



Kai
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
Peace....



quote:
What do you have to say about it? Did you teach Malcolm? Did you make Malcolm? Did you clean up Malcolm? Did you put Malcolm out before the world? Was Malcolm your traitor or was he ours? And if we dealt with him like a nation deals with a traitor what the hell business is it of yours?

- Louis Farrakhan, 1993 Savior's Day address


Do I need to know any more "true history"?




It is eassy to take a comment by the Minister and spin it....



Kai



Who is the "you" that he continually references in the statement? Clearly it's people who are not in the NOI who might believe the NOI had something to do with Malcolm's death.

Given this, the statement really doesn't require "twisting" ... how else would a reasonable person interpret it?
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
Peace....



quote:
What do you have to say about it? Did you teach Malcolm? Did you make Malcolm? Did you clean up Malcolm? Did you put Malcolm out before the world? Was Malcolm your traitor or was he ours? And if we dealt with him like a nation deals with a traitor what the hell business is it of yours?

- Louis Farrakhan, 1993 Savior's Day address


Do I need to know any more "true history"?




It is eassy to take a comment by the Minister and spin it....



Kai



Who is the "you" that he continually references in the statement? Clearly it's people who are not in the NOI who might believe the NOI had something to do with Malcolm's death.



Given this, the statement really doesn't require "twisting" ... how else would a reasonable person interpret it?



The "you" is speaking of those who accuse the NOI outside of the organization, however, I do not think he was responding to the accusation of murder. There are those who accuse the NOI of mishandling Malcolm during the time he was removed from the Ministry and given a 90 day probationary period from leadership.

There are those who accuse The Honorable Elijah Muhammad, and others of unfairly silencing Malcolm after his statements about the assassination of JFK.

The "Chickens coming home to roost" comments earned Malcolm a public reprimand, many didn't like this, nor did they like the subsequent suspension.

There have always been those seeking to formally indict Minister Farrakhan for the murder of Malcolm based on his writings in the Muhammad speaks Newspaper, however, they have failed to compile enough evidence to proceed with a prosecution. The above statements made in 1993 would have been nothing less than an admission, however, clearly, others who studied the lecture found nothing of worth to use in court.



Kai
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
Peace....



quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
This thread was funny as hell. I haven't stopped laughing since the NOI guy accused people that don't believe 'their' stuff as 'listening to the white man'. Like Islam isn't from Africas other colinizer/oppressor(Arabs). JudeoIslamichiristiansanity has god to go.


Not to even mention this dude...


Wallace Farrad Muhammad

Come the hell on.

Malcolm died for us just like Martin. We can know what they both were about from their own words which are well documented.

Fuck what YT or the NOI says.


Oshun, I think this statement is kinda harsh.


Yah, the truth often is.

quote:
The Nation Of Islam does not credit Arabs for the creation of Islam. We agree with the Arab world that the Arabs were the last to receive a message which our people already had for a very, very, long time.


The Nation of Islam can refuse to credit whomever and whatever they do and don't want to. That doesn't make it historical fact, or even a logical deduction for that matter. Just like Judaism and X-tianity, Islam is based on the branch of the Kemetic teachigs that was adopted/stolen/plagerized/borrowed and DEVELOPED into a seperate religion under the patriarchial foreign invaders known as Arabs. Just like the other Abrahamic religions, these folk use the deification of their culture(Islam) to oppress and exploit Africans.

quote:
"Islam" is an Arabic term, however the meaning of "Islam" which is peace, or Universal equilibrium is a very well known and accepted concept among our people going back into the far reaches of antiquity.


The peace is in the application. Islam came to Africa with a sword. The Arabized Fulani Jihadists are the one's who destabalized West African and made it easier for the Europeans to colinize and enslave us. Do I even have to mention the North African conquests(still continuing today in the Sudan) and East African Slave trade?


quote:
In ancient KMT we called this concept Maat. Maat represents balance, peace, and universal order. In the Ifa tradition practitioners are seeking inner peace by properly aligning the Ori.


As you know, I know plenty about Maat, but just like the other Abrahamic religions, what the religions say, and have historically done to Africans are two different things. The underlying message in X-tianity is supposed to be that of 'peace' too, and we all know how 'real' that is.

"One who knows the original does not accept a copy."
- an Akan proverb.

More planely spoken... Why, with all your KeMeTic knowledge would you accept the 'memorex' version of African spirituality? BTW, the object of Ifa is Iwa Pele, good character...the aligning of the ori is only part of the method to ataining this...but that is neither here nor their.

quote:
Islam, as revealed to the Bedouin Arab, was new to the uncivilized, however, to the old african it was simply the same truth revisting through the form of one unlearned.


So again, why accept the unlearned/foreign (IMO patriachial and lacking/glaringly obviousely out of balance) version?

quote:
Oshun, I guarantee that you do not know the man Wallace Fard Muhammad who you have maligned. Even if you reject the message that He brought, I would think that any student of African faith would respect someone who did so much to uplift our fallen people. He was one of the first to teach the lost children of Africa that they were not Negroes. He was one of the first to raise the inner person of our people.

He was jailed, and prosecuted on our behalf.. Perhaps you do not agree with his message, however, he has provided no basis for your contempt.


Actually, in my youth I was a member of the NOI. I attended mosk #19 in Inglewood California, so I know exactly of what I speak. I don't have any contempt for him, I have contempt for the ridiculousness of the claim that Islam is indigenous to Africa and is not the foreign religion of the other AFRICAN oppressor. Considerig the Yacub theory, Farrad's appearance is quite amusing IMO.

Elijah Muhammad was trying to organize our people again like Garvey did(he was a Garveyite) He knew Indo-European JudeoX-tianinsanity was a major stumbling block in our freedom. He took up Islam to get us away from that mess(VERY understandabe), and also because he knew that us Africans naturally organize around a spiritual base. Mistakenly, he hooked up his org. with another oppressors religion, probably out of the ignorance of this fact(It was not commen historical knowledge during his timeframe).

Many of the Pan African leaders that I simply adore, like Garvey, mistakenly supported Zionism back in the day thinking it was going to be a socialist state, and not realizing that the Azkenazm were actually European converts who aligned themsleves with the aspirations of imperialism. That has now been shown to be the case. That doesn't mean I respect Garvey any less. But I also don't have a problem stating that he was in error in his belief.

I would and have always worked with NOI economically and politically. I admire the organizations discipline, but the 'Destruction of Black Civilization' and other historical works clearly point out that Islam IS NOT native to Africa. Unlike members of the NOI I cannot believe something is true when all the historical information proves it as false.

That being said, I don't think the NOI had anything to do with Malcolms assasination. Those were FBI/CIA agents.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
What do you have to say about it? Did you teach Malcolm? Did you make Malcolm? Did you clean up Malcolm? Did you put Malcolm out before the world? Was Malcolm your traitor or was he ours? And if we dealt with him like a nation deals with a traitor what the hell business is it of yours?

- Louis Farrakhan, 1993 Savior's Day address


Do I need to know any more "true history"?


i don't know if you were talking to me or not but my last post was for those who are following the series. if that isn't you, there really was no need for response.

and if you think the brief quote/statement you posted encompasses the complete "true history" of this subject, and if you're satisfied with that - i guess you don't need to know anything else and you can move on to other topics. hopefully, they will be topics you can learn something from.
The History of the NOI in the West

here is another excerpt from the latest feature:

quote:
More memories of Malcolm

Bro. Jabril when he was [22], he was the captain in Lansing, Michigan under Min. Philbert who was Malcolm's brother and who had actually started [Malcolm] on the road to be what he really was by giving him the teachings before he ever got out of jail.

[Malcolm] came out and just like that he rose to minister. He was a minister in Detroit and then [Elijah Muhammad] took him right to the top. The biggest, most important [temple] was Number #7 in New York and that's where he ended up being the head and being chief lieutenant.

He ended up being the best help Elijah Muhammad had and one of the good things about him, Min. Farrakhan said this in regard to Khalid [Abdul Muhammad]. He said, "I'm gonna do the same thing with Khalid that Elijah Muhammad did with Malcolm because, with Malcolm, he raised the Nation to a higher level."

Not just Malcolm, but with the kind of mindset and attracting power he had, he brought so many young ministers following his example and they brought to the teaching - the truth was the same but they put it in a language that was more acceptable to the population. It sounded like college, like a real knowledge of what's going on in the street as opposed to the older ministers. Like Min. Isaiah, the minister in Baltimore, used to say that when he came to Elijah Muhammad he was like a plow boy. He couldn't read his name if you put it in boxcar letters, but he studied after hearing the teachings, overcame and was a very, very good minister but it was not that [same] level.

When [Malcolm] came in, it was Min. Lemuel Hassan [in Detroit,] and [Min. Isaiah], he was one of the best ministers Elijah Muhammad had and that whole battery of ministers was wonderful for that time. Min. Luicius [Bey] was a preacher but his appearance and delivery was such that it was very attractive to elder statesmen or people who were Masons, i.e., who were sort of leaders in the business world among Black people. He was a master at what he did, was very intelligent and his appearance was something. He and Malcolm used to run together ... the two of them would come to different cities to bring Islam and they attracted just about everybody. Things just went to a higher level and Malcolm was in ascendancy over everybody else - he was the national representative.

After his [separation] and death, which is something the White man has used to divide Black people against the Muslims because [the people] didn't know Malcolm, they made him a hero and in doing this, they accused the NOI as killing him so now [the people] are mad at the Nation, Elijah Muhammad and Min. Farrakhan.

We're not going to utilize the fact that [Malcolm] made a mistake and if he had of had time to think and somebody to speak to him in the right way, he probably would have been able to make it back.

I'm trying to give you the level of the [men] that were on the forefront when Malcolm came. He started bringing young ministers that were off of campuses, that were more learned and read and they began to appeal to the college educated and to a broader spectrum of our people. So, with those who came with him, Islam moved to a certain level and Khalid, The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan, intended to use him to raise [the Nation] to a certain level.
Peace.....



quote:
Yah, the truth often is.


Indeed it is...Mote it be.


quote:
The Nation of Islam can refuse to credit whomever and whatever they do and don't want to. That doesn't make it historical fact, or even a logical deduction for that matter. Just like Judaism and X-tianity, Islam is based on the branch of the Kemetic teachigs that was adopted/stolen/plagerized/borrowed and DEVELOPED into a seperate religion under the patriarchial foreign invaders known as Arabs. Just like the other Abrahamic religions, these folk use the deification of their culture(Islam) to oppress and exploit Africans.



History tells a different story. The origins of Islam can be found in the tradition which holds that a black man came to the Bedouin named Muhammad and instructed him onto a very ancient path. Prophet Muhammad was a student of Islam, not it's originator. The NOI is not inventing this claim, it is one of the most important and pronounced aspects of the prophets identity.

Islam is not based upon Kemetic teachings. Islam is Kemetic teachings offered in a different language. The adept will not become confused by the changing of the variables. In mathematics, x may represent 5, if I say x + 5=10 then the hidden variable becomes plain, you know the meaning within the symbol because of an understanding of principles. If I change the variable to N, or R, or any letter, it will not change the meaning of the equation nor will it change the method for solving the problem or the answer.

The names, and the language is interchangeable, the principles remain the same.

Now, I would advise you to take a closer look at the history of Ausar, and you will find that he took the Kemetic traditions into other lands, and taught the people in their own language. Therefore what you criticize as being a copy, may have an original signature...Take the focus off of the failures of the arabs, and focus upon the principles in the religion of Islam and you will see this.

The facts point toward Islam being granted, not stolen...

quote:
The peace is in the application. Islam came to Africa with a sword. The Arabized Fulani Jihadists are the one's who destabalized West African and made it easier for the Europeans to colinize and enslave us. Do I even have to mention the North African conquests(still continuing today in the Sudan) and East African Slave trade?


No. Arabs came to Africa with a sword. It would not be accurate to say that Maat came to Nubia with a spear.

The people who believe in a religion may transgress, or they may act without a proper understanding. Your accusations should be hurled at the people and not the principles of Islam. If such was the case, a person would be able to indict the Church for every wicked action performed in it's name. This logic is terribly flawed. The failures and insanity of a physicist, does not bring physics into question...

quote:
As you know, I know plenty about Maat, but just like the other Abrahamic religions, what the religions say, and have historically done to Africans are two different things. The underlying message in X-tianity is supposed to be that of 'peace' too, and we all know how 'real' that is.
.

The religions say nothing in the way of exploitation, and destruction. This was the failure of students who did not understand the teacher.

quote:
"One who knows the original does not accept a copy."
- an Akan proverb.


Yes, but one who has forgotten the original should appreciate one who comes to teach them in a language that they can understand. The knowledge of self was lost. You raise the importance of Malcolm, making nomention of the fact that without Master Fard Muhammad, and the Nation Of Islam, you would never have come to know that man.


quote:
More planely spoken... Why, with all your KeMeTic knowledge would you accept the 'memorex' version of African spirituality? BTW, the object of Ifa is Iwa Pele, good character...the aligning of the ori is only part of the method to ataining this...but that is neither here nor their.



I am a student of science.... I don't follow any way just because of how connected it is to Africa. The caucasian came into the core of Africa and conquered it. They didn't give a damn about our invocations, oracles, and libations, they brought guns and whips and beat the hell out of us. They crushed us right within the seat of our spirituality. Africa is underdeveloped, and plagued because we forgot our own understanding of principle.

I see the cleanest version of true principle and order arising out of the practice of Islam. I find that the Black Nation rose to conquer the world when they remembered what was revealed within Islam. We ruled The East and West from Africa when we were able to connect to correct principles.

quote:
So again, why accept the unlearned/foreign (IMO patriachial and lacking/glaringly obviousely out of balance) version?


Because as a student of history, and science, I understand that there is a general theme to the events on the planet. The light of Africa was lowered until total darkness fell upon the ancient path. I understand that such things are cyclical, and that part of the effect of the rise of light is that it appears strange to those who are used to traveling by torchlight.

the practice of our people in Africa was as close as they could come to the ancient trail while living in a dark age. The Priests of indigenous african religion will admit that their own tradition is a derivative of a more ancient way which was lost. The old trail is to be restored, however after the fall of the Setian man and his cities.

Islam represents the arrival and awakening of Her Em Akhet, and the fall of Set.

The arabs were chosen as custodians of a hidden knowledge which would not be fully unfolded until the very last days of Set's rule on this planet.

I'll expand upon this some other time....

quote:
Actually, in my youth I was a member of the NOI. I attended mosk #19 in Inglewood California, so I know exactly of what I speak. I don't have any contempt for him, I have contempt for the ridiculousness of the claim that Islam is indigenous to Africa and is not the foreign religion of the other AFRICAN oppressor. Considerig the Yacub theory, Farrad's appearance is quite amusing IMO.



Muhammad Ibn Abdulaah was a Arabian. I think everyone knows this..The problem is that you are staring at the letters I-S-L-A-M. If Islam meant "water", no one would have a problem agreeing that Islam started before 1400 years ago. If Islam meant "money", no one would have a problem admitting that money was around before the 6th century...Islam means Peace...How old is Peace and submission to the Will of the One God? Did Muhammad(pbuh) invent the practice of submission to God's Will?

Islam is not a forgery, Islam represents the changing FACE of a hidden light. Which is not poised to fully rise into prominence.

quote:
Elijah Muhammad was trying to organize our people again like Garvey did(he was a Garveyite) He knew Indo-European JudeoX-tianinsanity was a major stumbling block in our freedom. He took up Islam to get us away from that mess(VERY understandabe), and also because he knew that us Africans naturally organize around a spiritual base. Mistakenly, he hooked up his org. with another oppressors religion, probably out of the ignorance of this fact(It was not commen historical knowledge during his timeframe).




This is just wrong. Yes, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad was a supporter of Garvey, however the NOI was not modeled after the UNIA. The Nation Of Islam has a very distinct theology which cannot be tied to Marcus Garvey or Noble Drew Ali..

What these two movements had in common was a common philosophy as it relates to Nationalism and self help.


quote:
I would and have always worked with NOI economically and politically. I admire the organizations discipline, but the 'Destruction of Black Civilization' and other historical works clearly point out that Islam IS NOT native to Africa. Unlike members of the NOI I cannot believe something is true when all the historical information proves it as false.


The truth is that Isalam was revealed to Muhammad by an African. However, this piece is really non consequential at this point.

The question should not be the Africanness of a belief system but the truth of it. Islam is our ancient tradition, however, in order to see that you have to look beyond the surface...

There is an african proverb which says "Atemo a Ngola tu limbukila vulengo". Meaning, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.


quote:
That being said, I don't think the NOI had anything to do with Malcolms assasination. Those were FBI/CIA agents.



tfro



Kai
(More laughter from me)
NOI logic for being Muslim sounds the same as the logic of African folks who refuse to deal with the historical realisites of X-tianity.
Why aren't the Europeans 'custodians' in the same manner for the Ausarian principles that are clearly visibly retained in that religion? Are you next going to tell me that Judaism and X-tianity have not been transformed all the years they have been influenced and warped under European patriarchy?

Your post was very flowery but it is not dealing with the fact that both X-tianity and Islam have been 'transformed'(since you don't like the word stolen) under FOREIGN INVADER CULTURES AND PEOPLES TO AFRICA. There is NO WAY around this historical fact. No matter how much the NOI doesn't like to admmit it.

Culture is fluid, it is not like the mathematical example you used. Religion is the deification of culture. Any religion that spent even a couple hundred years in the hands of the enemy of African people is going to become transformed into the deification of THAT culture. If this is not true than why is X-tianity so screwed up? The NOI openly admits this about X-tianity, why not Islam? Obviousely the Arab and European had the same monstrous behavior towards African people(colinization and enslavement)Why is one oppressor the 'custodian' of 'granted' knowledge while the other one isn't? That is not logical.

The traditional African religions like that of IFA are based on the teachings of the Nile Valley yes, but that is because the actual people migrated from that region to West Africa about 2000 years ago. Now, since religion is the deification of culture wouldn't the African principles of MAAT be better maintained by African people than by an outside slaving and colinizing force? Or do you really think that your oppressor comes to give you tools for your spiritual liberation?

MAAT didn't come to Africa(as you well know), it was created INSIDE OF AFRICA by AFRICAN people. MAAT was not 'lost' to us. Only people that believe that poppycock about us 'being enslaved because we had fallen from the true path of God'(the true path is always someone elses path) believe that crap.

We are in this mess because we were fighting along too fronts and that created massive internal problems. That is how most wars are lost. X-tian European invaders to the West and Arab Muslim invaders to the North and East. Both came with the sword and their foreign 'developed' religions that deified their respective cultures and dehumanized us. You can deny it, and talk around it as much as you want but the truth the truth.
Peace.....


quote:
(More laughter from me)


Okay...

quote:
NOI logic for being Muslim sounds the same as the logic of African folks who refuse to deal with the historical realisites of X-tianity.
Why aren't the Europeans 'custodians' in the same manner for the Ausarian principles that are clearly visibly retained in that religion? Are you next going to tell me that Judaism and X-tianity have not been transformed all the years they have been influenced and warped under European patriarchy?


Christianity was not delivered to the European via Jehoshua the Karast (Ausar), the one the world knows as Jesus. Jesus was an iEssene High Priest and initiate into the Kemetic mysteries. The true teachings of Jesus is the teaching of the Kemetic mystery schools. The message was warped, however, enough of the pure message was preserved to clearly demonstrate a Kemetic origin.

You cannot accuse the message of Jesus for the failure and transgressions of those who uphold his name, nor can you blame the message of Muhammad, you must place the credit where it is due. Even the Shekhem of KMT fell victim to the devices of certain rebels of the Priestcraft, and thus the world of KMT fell. It was not a failure of NETER, or the system of Maat. It was simply a disease running it's course.

Those among the Priestcraft of Ammun understand that the light can remain hidden and the expression of Ra can experience several morphologies. The Corona of the Sun flickers and transforms by the instant, however it is still the same ball of fire and power. The devil seeks to destroy the light, however, the light is old, and wise, and knows best how to conceal itself and rise among new people in foreign lands. Once again perhaps you should revisit the tradition of Ausar, Auset and the finding of Ausars body among foreigners. This represents the birth and rise of Ausarian principles among a foreign people during the reign of Set.

quote:
Your post was very flowery but it is not dealing with the fact that both X-tianity and Islam have been 'transformed'(since you don't like the word stolen) under FOREIGN INVADER CULTURES AND PEOPLES TO AFRICA. There is NO WAY around this historical fact. No matter how much the NOI doesn't like to admmit it.


I have no problem with the idea that foreign invaders diluted the message of Ausar Seph (Musa), Yehoshua (Jesus), and Muhammad. My probem is with those who suppose that there is no remnant of the undiluted teaching of the Messengers of the One God.

quote:
Culture is fluid, it is not like the mathematical example you used. Religion is the deification of culture. Any religion that spent even a couple hundred years in the hands of the enemy of African people is going to become transformed into the deification of THAT culture. If this is not true than why is X-tianity so screwed up? The NOI openly admits this about X-tianity, why not Islam? Obviousely the Arab and European had the same monstrous behavior towards African people(colinization and enslavement)Why is one oppressor the 'custodian' of 'granted' knowledge while the other one isn't? That is not logical.


The religion of Christianity was not corrupted by the actions of those claiming it. The religion of Christianity was hijacked and the name stolen by those who had a different idea of what to do with the following of Jesus. The Council at Nicea invented the religion called Christianity, Jesus was added as a spice to it, however what is taught is not his pure teaching.

The scriptures of Christianity were changed. The scriptures of Islam were not changed. The same Holy Qur'an is the same book in an unadulterated form. The same criticism cannot apply.

quote:
MAAT didn't come to Africa(as you well know), it was created INSIDE OF AFRICA by AFRICAN people. MAAT was not 'lost' to us. Only people that believe that poppycock about us 'being enslaved because we had fallen from the true path of God'(the true path is always someone elses path) believe that crap


Maat was first raised on this side of the deluge by those who settled in the Nile Valley..the message was taken South by the priestcraft thereafter. The message arrived oftimes with Kemetic culture and also as a result of warfare.

quote:
We are in this mess because we were fighting along too fronts and that created massive internal problems. That is how most wars are lost. X-tian European invaders to the West and Arab Muslim invaders to the North and East. Both came with the sword and their foreign 'developed' religions that deified their respective cultures and dehumanized us. You can deny it, and talk around it as much as you want but the truth the truth.


You are still talking about people, I am focusing on principle.



Kai
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
Peace.....


quote:
(More laughter from me)


Okay...

quote:
NOI logic for being Muslim sounds the same as the logic of African folks who refuse to deal with the historical realisites of X-tianity.
Why aren't the Europeans 'custodians' in the same manner for the Ausarian principles that are clearly visibly retained in that religion? Are you next going to tell me that Judaism and X-tianity have not been transformed all the years they have been influenced and warped under European patriarchy?


Christianity was not delivered to the European via Jehoshua the Karast (Ausar), the one the world knows as Jesus. Jesus was an iEssene High Priest and initiate into the Kemetic mysteries. The true teachings of Jesus is the teaching of the Kemetic mystery schools. The message was warped, however, enough of the pure message was preserved to clearly demonstrate a Kemetic origin.

You cannot accuse the message of Jesus for the failure and transgressions of those who uphold his name, nor can you blame the message of Muhammad, you must place the credit where it is due. Even the Shekhem of KMT fell victim to the devices of certain rebels of the Priestcraft, and thus the world of KMT fell. It was not a failure of NETER, or the system of Maat. It was simply a disease running it's course.

Those among the Priestcraft of Ammun understand that the light can remain hidden and the expression of Ra can experience several morphologies. The Corona of the Sun flickers and transforms by the instant, however it is still the same ball of fire and power. The devil seeks to destroy the light, however, the light is old, and wise, and knows best how to conceal itself and rise among new people in foreign lands. Once again perhaps you should revisit the tradition of Ausar, Auset and the finding of Ausars body among foreigners. This represents the birth and rise of Ausarian principles among a foreign people during the reign of Set.

quote:
Your post was very flowery but it is not dealing with the fact that both X-tianity and Islam have been 'transformed'(since you don't like the word stolen) under FOREIGN INVADER CULTURES AND PEOPLES TO AFRICA. There is NO WAY around this historical fact. No matter how much the NOI doesn't like to admmit it.


I have no problem with the idea that foreign invaders diluted the message of Ausar Seph (Musa), Yehoshua (Jesus), and Muhammad. My probem is with those who suppose that there is no remnant of the undiluted teaching of the Messengers of the One God.

quote:
Culture is fluid, it is not like the mathematical example you used. Religion is the deification of culture. Any religion that spent even a couple hundred years in the hands of the enemy of African people is going to become transformed into the deification of THAT culture. If this is not true than why is X-tianity so screwed up? The NOI openly admits this about X-tianity, why not Islam? Obviousely the Arab and European had the same monstrous behavior towards African people(colinization and enslavement)Why is one oppressor the 'custodian' of 'granted' knowledge while the other one isn't? That is not logical.


The religion of Christianity was not corrupted by the actions of those claiming it. The religion of Christianity was hijacked and the name stolen by those who had a different idea of what to do with the following of Jesus. The Council at Nicea invented the religion called Christianity, Jesus was added as a spice to it, however what is taught is not his pure teaching.

The scriptures of Christianity were changed. The scriptures of Islam were not changed. The same Holy Qur'an is the same book in an unadulterated form. The same criticism cannot apply.

quote:
MAAT didn't come to Africa(as you well know), it was created INSIDE OF AFRICA by AFRICAN people. MAAT was not 'lost' to us. Only people that believe that poppycock about us 'being enslaved because we had fallen from the true path of God'(the true path is always someone elses path) believe that crap


Maat was first raised on this side of the deluge by those who settled in the Nile Valley..the message was taken South by the priestcraft thereafter. The message arrived oftimes with Kemetic culture and also as a result of warfare.

quote:
We are in this mess because we were fighting along too fronts and that created massive internal problems. That is how most wars are lost. X-tian European invaders to the West and Arab Muslim invaders to the North and East. Both came with the sword and their foreign 'developed' religions that deified their respective cultures and dehumanized us. You can deny it, and talk around it as much as you want but the truth the truth.


You are still talking about people, I am focusing on principle.



Kai


Are you HONESTLY trying to tell me and yourself that the Ausarian principles of KMT have not been effected by Arabic culture? The patriarchy in the NOI's teachings speaks for this alone!

Dr. Ben John Henrick Clark and countless other African historians disagree with you and your NOI version of Islamic history.

Religion is the deification of culture -Dr. Ben

You can pretend that outsiders are the proper 'custodians' of African spirituality and culture if you wish...

BTW I do not take the Ausarian MYTHS as literalist prophesy{as you alluded to).

KMT fell because of a succession of outside invaders like the Hyksos, Greeks, Romans, Persians, Marmelouks, and Arabs.

You may want to revisit "The destruction of Black Civilization".

We have totally different views of history, which is often the case when I speak to NOI folk, So I do not see us as coming to any agreement.
Peace....


quote:
Are you HONESTLY trying to tell me and yourself that the Ausarian principles of KMT have not been effected by Arabic culture? The patriarchy in the NOI's teachings speaks for this alone!


The arabs were never given enough understanding to corrupt what was left in their care.

The Holy Qur'an Sharrief is a revelation which was never fully unraveled by the arab world of muslims.

The Book is what I am speaking of.

Islam not only travelled through the arab world, it was also emanated through the vessel of the African Moor. The Moors were able to maintain their own indigenous culture and demonstrate the beauty which results from the application of the principles within the Holy Qur'an.

African Islamic scholars such as Ibn al Arabi, and Dhu l-Nun Al-Misri, demonstrate the clear transference of ancient Kemetic wisdom to a new generation of Africans.

The Sufi doctrine is so close to what was taught in Kemet that there can be no mistake of its origin, and the manner of it's transmission. Dhu l Nun Al Misri, was himself a Kamite, and was said to have learned the ancient wisdom of the people of Kemet. He was able to read Mdw Ntr, and his learning in the mysteries is blatant in the ideology of Sufism.

The Sufi speaks of the annihilation of the self, and the joining of God in oneness, this is a process which includes music, meditation, study and purity, this idea mirrors the Kemetic teaching of man rising from Sahu, to Ausar. You will also find this as a core principle in the teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. "God In Person" is perfectly consistent with the idea of man aligining himself properly and becoming Ausar, God in Person.

Oshun, in your view when you see Islam, you see Arabs, However, this view is not my view. When I see Islam, I see a continuance of ancient principles which stretch even further into antiquity than the age of the Pyramids, and the carving of the Nile...


quote:
Dr. Ben John Henrick Clark and countless other African historians disagree with you and your NOI version of Islamic history.



I have been a student of the writings of Dr. Ben for nearly 20 years now, I can tell you with certainty that the beliefs of the NOI do not coflict with what he has taught. Dr. Ben is no fan of Islam as taught by Arab muslims. He is also vocal as it relates to his disdain for the Arab invaders who intentionally destroyed much of the infrastructure of KMT. Dr. Ben joins the NOI in the belief that the arab was ignorant.

Islam is not the property of Arabs...

quote:
Religion is the deification of culture -Dr. Ben



The practice of raising the dead in KMT was a religious practice, however in this case the culture was dominated by the religion. This was also the case for many Islamic states such as the early Moorish Empire which was heavily influenced by Sufism.

quote:
You can pretend that outsiders are the proper 'custodians' of African spirituality and culture if you wish...


The arabs were never the Custodians of the understaning, only the book. The Arabs have faithfully maintained the scripture in it's original form. Muhammad (pbuh) was a Rasul (Messenger) and thus like any mail carrier he was only a Mouth piece. God uses such mouth pieces to demonstrate the authenticity of the message. When such wisdom comes from the mouth of spiritual children like the bedouin, then the wise know to pay close attention. Muhammad was an uneducated man raised among a wild people, however the Qur'an evidences knowledge and wisdom which clearly could only be produced by someone of Supreme Wisdom.

Muhammad's standing and subsequent success was a demonstration of God's power.

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BTW I do not take the Ausarian MYTHS as literalist prophesy{as you alluded to).


Have you read Metu Neter volume I and II? Do you agree with Ra Un Nefer Amen? Please answer this before I expand upon this portion of my reply.

quote:
KMT fell because of a succession of outside invaders like the Hyksos, Greeks, Romans, Persians, Marmelouks, and Arabs.



This is a weak excuse for such an advanced and powerful nation. No one could have invaded KMT without the willful neglect of those who were suppose to guard against such things. Most cannot fathom the advancement of Kemetic civilization. A nation responsible for the erection of the worlds most grand skyscrapers, a nation which leveled mountains, and organized courts, colleges, and circumnavigated the globe before most other civilization rose beyond hunter gatherere would hardly be the target of barbarians...Unless they allowed it willfully....

I am suggesting that they allowed the invasion....The setting Sun had to come..It was time.


quote:
You may want to revisit "The destruction of Black Civilization".



I am familiar with Chancellor Williams...Most scholars approach the subject of "What", however they are stumped when they look into "Why"...

Why did the great power of KMT allow for it's own destruction??? Why was the Priestcraft found instructing the very invaders who would later raise Set as the National Hero, and would defile the righteous culture developed over thousands of years?

Because they had to...It was Set's time to rule...It is that simple...

When Ausar would be found he would be founded in a strange land among a people unfamiliar with his name and tradition. It would be Auset, the Mother who by the power of Hekau would raise Ausar, and give Birth to Heru in the last day to make war with Set, and his Apepian Kingdom...Heru was the Son of the Ausarian mind, but he was represented as a lord of flight..There is something in this for those who would reflect....

Enter the baby called Islam, founded right in Puanit, the original land of God.

The Ausarian story is not literal history, however it is more than just stories about nothing...


Alright Sister, I hope you have stopped laughing by now... Smile


quote:
We have totally different views of history, which is often the case when I speak to NOI folk, So I do not see us as coming to any agreement


I am an individual...I welcome you to explore this with me..Perhaps we both can learn a few things..eh??



Kai
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
Peace....


quote:
Are you HONESTLY trying to tell me and yourself that the Ausarian principles of KMT have not been effected by Arabic culture? The patriarchy in the NOI's teachings speaks for this alone!


The arabs were never given enough understanding to corrupt what was left in their care.


It is evem easier to corrupt things when you don't understand them, just as the Europeans did with X-tianity.

quote:
The Holy Qur'an Sharrief is a revelation which was never fully unraveled by the arab world of muslims.

The Book is what I am speaking of.

Islam not only travelled through the arab world, it was also emanated through the vessel of the African Moor. The Moors were able to maintain their own indigenous culture and demonstrate the beauty which results from the application of the principles within the Holy Qur'an.


So the indigenous culture of Africans is different from that taught in the Qur'an? That is somewhat of a contradiction(considering your premise). The Moors were Arabized Africans. In Senegal it is similar. The Islam that is practiced their is very Africanized(or from your point of view, re-Africanized), but it still has the underlying deification of Arab culture that is expected.

quote:
African Islamic scholars such as Ibn al Arabi, and Dhu l-Nun Al-Misri, demonstrate the clear transference of ancient Kemetic wisdom to a new generation of Africans.

The Sufi doctrine is so close to what was taught in Kemet that there can be no mistake of its origin, and the manner of it's transmission. Dhu l Nun Al Misri, was himself a Kamite, and was said to have learned the ancient wisdom of the people of Kemet. He was able to read Mdw Ntr, and his learning in the mysteries is blatant in the ideology of Sufism.

The Sufi speaks of the annihilation of the self, and the joining of God in oneness, this is a process which includes music, meditation, study and purity, this idea mirrors the Kemetic teaching of man rising from Sahu, to Ausar. You will also find this as a core principle in the teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. "God In Person" is perfectly consistent with the idea of man aligining himself properly and becoming Ausar, God in Person.


I actually like studying Sufi Islam(I've posted on the 'KeMeTic relationship' in the spiritual section) because of this, just as I like the Hindu religion(minus it's Aryan influence, which is present), just as I like Gnosticism(minus it's hellenic influence, which is present), but I can also see the partriarchal cultural footprints of the Arabs in all forms of Islam just as I see the patriarchal footprint of the Indo-Europeans in X-tianity and Hinduism.

quote:
Oshun, in your view when you see Islam, you see Arabs, However, this view is not my view. When I see Islam, I see a continuance of ancient principles which stretch even further into antiquity than the age of the Pyramids, and the carving of the Nile...


That's the same thing the X-tians claim. I don't see Islam=Arabs, I see Islam=the deification of Arab culture on top of, or intermixed with a borrowed/stolen/handed down(whatever you want to call it) KeMeTic offshoot... Like all the Abrahamic religions.


quote:
quote:
Dr. Ben John Henrick Clark and countless other African historians disagree with you and your NOI version of Islamic history.



I have been a student of the writings of Dr. Ben for nearly 20 years now, I can tell you with certainty that the beliefs of the NOI do not coflict with what he has taught. Dr. Ben is no fan of Islam as taught by Arab muslims. He is also vocal as it relates to his disdain for the Arab invaders who intentionally destroyed much of the infrastructure of KMT. Dr. Ben joins the NOI in the belief that the arab was ignorant.

Islam is not the property of Arabs...


But these invaders/colinizers have been it's 'custodian' as you say...They left their cultural footprint, much like the Europeans have on X-tianity, I think that the deifications of both cultures is so ingrained in both religions that it is nearly impossible to get back to the 'root' in any pure African sense, in ideology or practice, and why would one have to muddle through all of the confusion when the traditions of our ancestors are DIRECTLY available to us and still practiced?

quote:
quote:
Religion is the deification of culture -Dr. Ben



The practice of raising the dead in KMT was a religious practice, however in this case the culture was dominated by the religion. This was also the case for many Islamic states such as the early Moorish Empire which was heavily influenced by Sufism.

quote:
You can pretend that outsiders are the proper 'custodians' of African spirituality and culture if you wish...


The arabs were never the Custodians of the understaning, only the book. The Arabs have faithfully maintained the scripture in it's original form. Muhammad (pbuh) was a Rasul (Messenger) and thus like any mail carrier he was only a Mouth piece. God uses such mouth pieces to demonstrate the authenticity of the message. When such wisdom comes from the mouth of spiritual children like the bedouin, then the wise know to pay close attention. Muhammad was an uneducated man raised among a wild people, however the Qur'an evidences knowledge and wisdom which clearly could only be produced by someone of Supreme Wisdom.

Muhammad's standing and subsequent success was a demonstration of God's power.


Yes he was illiterate, that is why it is obvious that it is copied African spiritual technology and 'translated/written down' in the context of Arabic culture...Dr. Ben had a field day with this one in a convo with an NOI adherent when he visited here... hence the muddled mess of patriarchy that is the result. Please explain why the Qur'an demonized the divine feminine and matriarchy to the point that it surpasses the demonization of of these concepts in the Helio Biblio?(Compare each Queen of Sheba story, the Islamic one is much more negative)

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quote:
BTW I do not take the Ausarian MYTHS as literalist prophesy{as you alluded to).


Have you read Metu Neter volume I and II? Do you agree with Ra Un Nefer Amen? Please answer this before I expand upon this portion of my reply.


Yes, I have read them, I was a memeber of the Ausar Auset society. Did you know that they get their divination done(readings) from Ifa Babalawos? Actually, Ra Un Nefer Amen was a former (disgruntled) Awo who decided to redo everything with the KeMeTic signature so he could get some 'praise'. All the Neteru have an Orisha counterpart... Actually what the Ausar Auset Society practices is the KeMeTically masked vegan version of Ifa. I don't agree with everything the man(or his organizations) teaches, because I've seen the contradications. Also, since the divination system that the KeMeTic system used was supposedly 'lost to history'(but that is another discussion) that is why they go to Ifa Babalawos for their divinations, because if you can't tap into the power of our ancestors and the Orishas(manifestations/aspects of God), the information becomes completely 'cerebreal' and therfore not fully applicable and 'out of balance'. Now why would the Ausar Auset society deal with Babalawos for their readings unless they know that Ifa is based on the same KeMeTic system that transfered(and further developed) with the PEOPLE of the Nile Valley from East to West Africa?

What divination system does the NOI use? I don't remember one... I don't remember any for the Abrahamic religions. They used to have them, but the Esoteric traditions, under Arabic and Indo-European influences have been suppressed. (like the Qaballa)


quote:
quote:
KMT fell because of a succession of outside invaders like the Hyksos, Greeks, Romans, Persians, Marmelouks, and Arabs.


This is a weak excuse for such an advanced and powerful nation. No one could have invaded KMT without the willful neglect of those who were suppose to guard against such things. Most cannot fathom the advancement of Kemetic civilization. A nation responsible for the erection of the worlds most grand skyscrapers, a nation which leveled mountains, and organized courts, colleges, and circumnavigated the globe before most other civilization rose beyond hunter gatherere would hardly be the target of barbarians...Unless they allowed it willfully....

I am suggesting that they allowed the invasion....The setting Sun had to come..It was time.


So some think... Blame the victim... The PEOPLE and the traditions of the Nile Valley complex moved to the West, partially because of such invasions... The flaw in this type of reasoning is that people think that because KeMeTic civilization is no longer present in the same form in the same region that it got wiped out... It moved and developed/changed slightly as all cultures do, but African spiritual technology sure wasn't given by divine inspiration to some illiterate Arab. Religions do not develop in a cultural political vacuum.

quote:
quote:
You may want to revisit "The destruction of Black Civilization".


I am familiar with Chancellor Williams...Most scholars approach the subject of "What", however they are stumped when they look into "Why"...

Why did the great power of KMT allow for it's own destruction??? Why was the Priestcraft found instructing the very invaders who would later raise Set as the National Hero, and would defile the righteous culture developed over thousands of years?

Because they had to...It was Set's time to rule...It is that simple...

When Ausar would be found he would be founded in a strange land among a people unfamiliar with his name and tradition. It would be Auset, the Mother who by the power of Hekau would raise Ausar, and give Birth to Heru in the last day to make war with Set, and his Apepian Kingdom...Heru was the Son of the Ausarian mind, but he was represented as a lord of flight..There is something in this for those who would reflect....

Enter the baby called Islam, founded right in Puanit, the original land of God.

The Ausarian story is not literal history, however it is more than just stories about nothing...


Alright Sister, I hope you have stopped laughing by now... Smile


Actually I haven't...(and I'm not trying to be a smart ass even though it may read that way) This made me chuckle quite a bit more.

I agree that all mythos aren't just 'stories about nothing'. I never claimed such a thing, but I don't understand folks, especially folks who are so well versed with the KeMeTic system, clinging to any Abrahamic religion. It's quite strange(and somewhat humorous) IMO. You know, there were and are other advanced civilizations in Africa...

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/19370808/m/7551004381

quote:
quote:
We have totally different views of history, which is often the case when I speak to NOI folk, So I do not see us as coming to any agreement


I am an individual...I welcome you to explore this with me..Perhaps we both can learn a few things..eh??



Kai


True...
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