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1M... What I quoted above suggested that you, of all people, didn't need a special feature for you to CLICK IGNORE. You kept trying to impress upon me that I should be motivated to stop talking to you because of what I had to say about your Lack Of Integrity. All the while, you couch that stuff in terms of "what you would do" if it was you who felt like you were dealing with someone whom you feel was lacking in credibility/integrity and/or was less than genuine.

You went on to state that that was exactly how you felt about me yet you continued on with me. And, I'm sorry, beyond being quite ironic that just happens to be pretty damn funny to me.

Now, I'll acknowledge where you said you stood "corrected" but I'll also acknowledge the highlighted "silliness" of yours that came afterwards. All in all, it's still just rather funny because, like the self-imposed IGNORE feature all your little "if I were you" points tried to impress upon me, you have complete control over advancing your topic on the terms you want.

You talk about 10 hours I've done this or that, well, most of that you've spent away from the very topic you claim is so important. In truth, there's a consistent thread to both your phony "if I were you" statements and this pretense about me distracting from the topic.

Now, you wouldn't have had to be "corrected" if you were actually focused on the topic and actual discussions on the topic.

So keep all the funny stuff coming. And I won't even count the number of posts/hours after you said:
"I know when people lose credibility with me, i'm not found trying to keep a conversation, dialogue or anything else going with them."
note to the board:

if you go back and review this thread, you will again see that N is guilty of that which he is accusing other people. you will find him early on in this thread, making the following comment to umbra:

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

And you don't need me to berate you. You do a damn good job of that yourself.

But go ahead and ask another stupid rhetorical question just to make a pure a$$ out of yourself. I mean, it's really not that hard to read a couple of paragraphs. You came off half-cocked only to get dropped by a little carefully placed sentence that DEBUNKS the very line of BS you let come out your mouth.

Now, here's my rhetorical question for you:
Yacub? Is he yo' daddy?

Cause you sho' act like a BIG HEAD mad anti-scientist with the crazy stuff you dream up.


now this is not on-topic and is similar to a few other posts he was putting up early on in this thread... off topic, mind you, but he's trying to accuse others of that which he is guilty of himself. now we all know that threads take different twists and turns as people come in responding to comments which may not directly focus on the theme and if that is a known fact, and is something N clearly has done himself - in this very thread , it's somewhat hypocritical of him to act like such is acceptable for him but is not acceptable for other people.

his yacub comment did nothing to steer things back to the thread topic. his rant at umbra did nothing to steer things back to the topic and did nothing to help this thread stay on topic so he is as much a part of the problem as anyone else he could be pointing at.
1Mile... "Back To The Topic" is your pretense for objecting to... Well, for objecting to the reception you got.

When I did comment ON TOPIC that's what you disregarded (until I separated you from your "lumping" ignorance). Again, the "Back To The Topic" deal was your deal, NOT MINE.

Me... It's however you want to do this. Don't matter to me. It's your thread and topic. I told you that you could easily CLICK IGNORE and STAY ON TOPIC without the use of special/artificial features to help you STAY ON TASK. You can advance your topic by you staying ON TOPIC and not getting distracted yourself.

I have no problems taking on most all comers. When I say "address the topic" on a thread of mine I will direct people back to the topic. They will particularly have to deal with the areas they apparently want to avoid. I don't even trip. I just let them know what it is they seem to purposely be trying to avoid. No sweat off my brow.

That's just how I do.

You can whine about me all day long but that won't get you back on YOUR TOPIC. No "Ignore" Feature needed. You're not handicapped.
note to the board:

the fact that many message boards have an "ignore" feature should speak for itself. the feature is found to be beneficial to many people. in a thread like this, if someone wanted to block out N's posts, or mine, in order to see what else went on in here - they'd be able to do it. if i wanted to read thru this topic without having to scroll thru N's posts, i'd be able to do that. people who use the ignore feature on other message boards are not "handicapped" or any other negative thing, name or description that "adults" could think to come up with.

it is not my style to babysit adults - that is a waste of time - which is why my motto throughout this thread has been "do your thing." if someone wants to come in rolling around and slapping the floor - do your thing. if someone wants to come in and avoid the questions they are asked but then flaunt their educational status - do your thing. if a person wants to use a 10 hour span of time to excessively post and make accusations against other people when they are guilty of the same things they're accusing others of - do you thing. those behaviors say more about the maturity level of those participating in them than they do about me. if some of the grown men here need a board-mother to take them by the hand, scold them and tell them how/what to post - i hope they find one because i'm not it. N, however, evidently takes pride in being an adult board babysitter ... a mr. dad, i guess. :-O

finally, any who want to keep abreast of the succeeding parts of the interview series with bro. wazir - everything could not be put in one article - you can follow up on the above mentioned site. since much of it will be related to NOI history on the west coast and some of the key figures in that (dr. khallid, brother jabril, etc), i won't be posting that here as i don't think too many are familiar or have that much of an interest.
quote:
the fact that many message boards have an "ignore" feature should speak for itself. the feature is found to be beneficial to many people. in a thread like this, if someone wanted to block out N's posts, or mine, in order to see what else went on in here - they'd be able to do it.


Since the thread has degenerated into signifying match between 1milehi and Nmaginate it really makes sense to ignore the last 3 pages. lol

negrospiritual said all that was worth saying about it on page 2. I jumped around in the article and saw nothing to indicate that it was worth my time reading the whole thing and I wasn't about to read it just to tell imilehi that I had.

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/79160213/m...291007114#1291007114

umbrarchist
1mile, my comment wasnt towards you or anyone in particular.My sole point was malcom's legacy is a lot bigger than just Islam he is a world renound freedom fighter, Black Nationalist, Pan-Africanist. He would not have evolved into the man he became without the Nation and the teachings of the Honarable Elijah Muhammad, whom I view as a Master Psychologist, as well as a spiritual leader. But lets get real about the situation. I know and you know the Nation has to revamp itself. The old school tactics used to fish the walking dead, needs to be modernized to deal with these times. I belife the Nation has a great purpose in our community and i belief if it makes the necessary adjustments need to incorporate and include all the other grassroots and national movements out here fighting for the survival of African people.Ive been around the teachings for 21 years so i dont speak lightly. But we have to move away from this me versus you mentality and lets unite for our survival as a people. Christians , Hebrew Israelites, Animist, Muslims, non religious etc
quote:
Originally posted by umbrarchist:
I jumped around in the article and saw nothing to indicate that it was worth my time reading the whole thing and I wasn't about to read it just to tell imilehi that I had.


*shaking head* and you're 54 years old? if you didn't read the article, all you had to do was say that. but i guess that would have meant you would have had to concede how anti-intelligence it was for you to be attempting to jump into a discussion on that which you had not read.

if you only jumped around in the article and jumped back out claiming to have found nothing, that's like someone quickly glancing over a pile of dirt and concluding there's nothing in there but had they taken the time, they might have found the diamonds that were hidden in the pile.

but anyway - thank you for answering on page 5 of this thread what you were asked on page 1 (or 2). and you're really 54 years old, right?
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
1mile, my comment wasnt towards you or anyone in particular.


thanks for the clarification. i was just wondering about that "brushing off" comment.

quote:
My sole point was malcom's legacy is a lot bigger than just Islam he is a world renound freedom fighter, Black Nationalist, Pan-Africanist. He would not have evolved into the man he became without the Nation and the teachings of the Honarable Elijah Muhammad, whom I view as a Master Psychologist, as well as a spiritual leader.


i agree but to me there's still the matter of the false image that was built up by the enemy of us all. you and i may have respect for elijah muhammad but there are still some/many who know nothing of the matter other than the story that paints malcolm as hero and elijah muhammad/NOI as villains. nothing that malcolm did of good and value should be taken away but what is the process by which the falsehood of the malcolm/NOI story can be extracted from the whole so that there is more balance from all angles? that's the thing to me. you and i may be all right in our view but there's still funk in the air and lack of clarity in the minds of some who only know what's been fed to them from those who have an agenda to keep a rift going amongst malcolm supporters and those who love elijah muhammad and min farrakhan.

quote:
But lets get real about the situation. I know and you know the Nation has to revamp itself. The old school tactics used to fish the walking dead, needs to be modernized to deal with these times. I belife the Nation has a great purpose in our community and i belief if it makes the necessary adjustments need to incorporate and include all the other grassroots and national movements out here fighting for the survival of African people.


i agree 100%. this isn't the 1960s anymore and what worked then does not necessarily work now. i think min. farrakhan is an example of what you're saying but many local mosque areas have yet to catch up. i know in the city i'm in, the minister here may have a good heart but he's not good at coalition building and making others feel he is not just interested in coming in and "running things" because he's NOI and NOI's got to be in charge. in other areas, however, the ministers are following min. farrakhan's example and making an impact in their areas. min. tony muhammad is an example in L.A. he's not perfect but he has the respect of a lot of groups out there that aren't NOI.

quote:
Ive been around the teachings for 21 years so i dont speak lightly. But we have to move away from this me versus you mentality and lets unite for our survival as a people. Christians , Hebrew Israelites, Animist, Muslims, non religious etc


i agree. i've been around the teachings less time than you, around 13 years, but i agree.

thanks for the explanation.
quote:
*shaking head* and you're 54 years old? if you didn't read the article, all you had to do was say that. but i guess that would have meant you would have had to concede how anti-intelligence it was for you to be attempting to jump into a discussion on that which you had not read.


Life is short and time is precious and there is lots of bullshit in the world. I read the Autobiography of Malcom X not long after it came out when I was still in high school and at least twice more since then. I have also read other stuff about him and watched videos on the subject.

quote:
that's like someone quickly glancing over a pile of dirt and concluding there's nothing in there but had they taken the time, they might have found the diamonds that were hidden in the pile.


You must also take into account where the pile of dirt came from.

I don't trust the NOI as far as I can throw the Taj Mahal on the subject of Malcolm X. I told you I had probably talked to NOI members before you were born but I can't be sure of that since I don't know your age. I'm guessing you are under 35.

You can make whatever assumptions you like about how men my age should behave and think but I know I wouldn't fit a profile for most black men my age, and I was politely ignoring plenty when I was under 20. I said Malcolm was shot shortly before my 13th birthday, the computation shouldn't be difficult.

I don't get any points for figuring out what negrospiritual figured out without reading the article myself? lol lol lol

umbrarchist
quote:
i agree but to me there's still the matter of the false image that was built up by the enemy of us all. you and i may have respect for elijah muhammad but there are still some/many who know nothing of the matter other than the story that paints malcolm as hero and elijah muhammad/NOI as villains.


1Mile, IMO, Virtue summed up the sentiments of those of us who aren't anti-NOI:

It is within the ranks of the NOI that Malcolm's genius was cultivated and allowed to flourish. It was through his exposure as an NOI member that we have come to know and love Malcolm...


ZAKAR also stated, clearly, the very way inwhich we should view this question:

I LOVE MALCOM, AND I LOVE THE MINISTER, NOT BECAUSE OF HIS RELIGIOUS BELIEFS, BUT BECAUSE OF HIS LOVE FOR HIS PEOPLE. ....ISLAM WAS HIS RELIGION , IT BROUGHT HIM OUT OF THE DARKNESS, BUT HE WAS... A PAN AFRICANIST AND BLACK NATIONALIST IN HIS IDEOLOGY.


With those things noted, few people here have expressed having any issues with the NOI. Concerns about the "false image" then are mostly misplaced here. The only outstanding dissent, so to speak, has come from Umbra.

It's that type of assumption-concern that makes up the NOI/Elijah Muhammad APOLOGETICS. And it really has little grounds as a concern here because for a lot of people (per ZAKAR's and Virtue's statements) those things are not an issue.

For those concerns, however, it is time to "GET REAL." Those people who are not NOI or would-be vocal supporters need not esteem or regard Elijah Muhammad the way the NOI does to appreciate Malcolm's "birthplace." That's my issue with the apparent Apologetics evident in the interview with AWM.
quote:
Originally posted by umbrarchist:
[QUOTE]*shaking head* and you're 54 years old? if you didn't read the article, all you had to do was say that. but i guess that would have meant you would have had to concede how anti-intelligence it was for you to be attempting to jump into a discussion on that which you had not read.

Life is short and time is precious and there is lots of bullshit in the world. I read the Autobiography of Malcom X not long after it came out when I was still in high school and at least twice more since then. I have also read other stuff about him and watched videos on the subject.


umbra, i stand by my statement. if you had of admitted that you had not read the article, that would mean you would have had to concede that - as malcolm used to say - you were "operating against the laws of intelligence" by even trying to discuss, analyze and critique something that you had not read. you shouldn't even be trying to get around that.

you cannot judge what is in the interview by what you read in an autobiography, or by anything else you have read. you should be judging the contents of the interview by what they are and since you don't know what they are - it is anti-intelligence for you to be comparing them to other things you took the time to read when you did not do the same, i.e. READ with an open mind, with the interview.

that's what i'm saying. it's just like N told you earlier in the thread - you're judging a book by the cover and that's just shouldn't be the case given your previously stated level of intellgence.

quote:
You must also take into account where the pile of dirt came from.

I don't trust the NOI as far as I can throw the Taj Mahal on the subject of Malcolm X. I told you I had probably talked to NOI members before you were born but I can't be sure of that since I don't know your age. I'm guessing you are under 35.


no, i'm not under 35. you don't trust "the NOI" but "the NOI" was not interviewed. the person who was interviewed is not the people you encountered in your youth. but my motto is "do your thing." i may not trust "50-some year old men who can't answer direct questions" - but that doesn't stop me from giving you the benefit of the doubt and reading your words. but that's me and you're you.

quote:
You can make whatever assumptions you like about how men my age should behave and think but I know I wouldn't fit a profile for most black men my age, and I was politely ignoring plenty when I was under 20. I said Malcolm was shot shortly before my 13th birthday, the computation shouldn't be difficult.


i don't know if i was making assumptions. i think any of us would be surprised at someone 50 years old skirting around a question like you did earlier. and then giving the explanation that you gave to N - *shrug* it's just surprising to me that someone 50 years old operates like that - but do your thing.

quote:
I don't get any points for figuring out what negrospiritual figured out without reading the article myself? lol lol lol

umbrarchist


no, you don't. given your stated level of intelligence, i'm surprised that you're satisfied to allow someone else to do your thinking for you.

and i believe negrospiritual is one of the ones who said there was "nothing" new in the article. people can say that but i truly fail to believe that that is true, so yes, i'm saying there's a bit of dishonesty in that.

i know for those who are not up on NOI history, there are some things in there that they wouldn't possibly know. the small bit that was shared about malcolm's brothers - you mean to tell me that those who say there's nothing "new" in the article knew that? if they didn't know those things then it's not accurate to say there's nothing "new" in the piece. so, i don't know what the purpose is in using that phrase because, IMO, it cannot possibly be accurate for anybody on this board.

malcolm taught that the reason jesus spoke in parables was to discern the condition of people's hearts. did you know he taught that? if you didn't, that's something "new" that you would have found in the piece had you had the ability to sit down and read it instead of finding excuses not to.
there is some interesting information contained in this interview between democracy now and manning marable: http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/02/21/1458213

excerpt regarding the autobiography of malcolm x:

quote:
AMY GOODMAN: We're going to break and then when we come back, we are a going to talk about The Autobiography of Malcolm X, the missing chapters, and where they are, which you have got a chance to see excerpts of.

MANNING MARABLE: That's right.

AMY GOODMAN: We're going to talk about how the autobiography was written, and the F.B.I., their relationship with Alex Haley. We will talk about these things and more in just a minute.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: We spend the hour today on Malcolm X, today the 40th anniversary of his assassination. Our guest is Columbia University Professor Manning Marable, writing a biography of Malcolm X, and also the editor of the magazine Souls: A Critical Journal of Black Politics, Culture and Society. The winter 2005 issue, photograph of Malcolm X on the cover, and that's what the whole issue is devoted to, with a major article by Professor Marable. Let's talk about The Autobiography of Malcolm X.

MANNING MARABLE: Okay. The -- most people who read the autobiography perceive the narrative as a story that now millions of people know, and it was -- it's a story of human transformation, the powerful epiphany, Malcolm's journey to Mecca, his renunciation of the Nation of Islam's racial separatism, his embrace of universal humanity, of humanism that was articulated through Sunni Islam. Well, that's the story everybody knows. But there's a hidden history. You see, Malcolm and Haley collaborated to produce a magnificent narrative about the life of Malcolm X, but the two men had very different motives in coming together. Malcolm did -- what Malcolm did not know is that back in 1962, a collaborator of Alex Haley, fellow named -- a journalist named Alfred Balk had approached the F.B.I. regarding an article that he and Haley were writing together for The Saturday Evening Post, and the F.B.I. had an interest in castigating the Nation of Islam, and isolating it from the mainstream of Negro civil rights activity. So consequently, a deal was struck between Balk, Haley and the F.B.I. that the F.B.I. provided information to Balk and Haley in the construction of their article, and Balk was -- Balk was really the interlocutor between the F.B.I. and the two writers in putting a spin on the article. The F.B.I. was very happy with the article they produced, which was entitled, "The Black Merchants of Hate," that came out in early 1963. What's significant about that piece is that that became the template for what evolved into the basic narrative structure of The Autobiography of Malcolm X.

AMY GOODMAN: Did Alex Haley know about this relationship?

MANNING MARABLE: There is no direct evidence that Haley sat down with the F.B.I. Nevertheless, since Balk was the co-author of the piece and it was Balk who talked directly with the F.B.I. --

AMY GOODMAN: Did Haley know --

MANNING MARABLE: One can assume that Haley was involved in it.

AMY GOODMAN: Did Haley at least talk to Balk about -- did he know about Balk's relationship with the F.B.I.?

MANNING MARABLE: One can assume that Haley did because Haley and Balk co-authored the piece, traveled throughout the United States together and collected material together to form an article that they co-authored. It would be highly unlikely that Haley did not know.

AMY GOODMAN: Then the writing of the autobiography, Alex Haley and Malcolm X's relationship. How did they do it?

MANNING MARABLE: Over a period of --

AMY GOODMAN: And why did Malcolm X choose him?

MANNING MARABLE: Over a period of about year-and-a-half, Malcolm and Haley agreed to work with each other. They met usually after a long business day that Malcolm put in very tired. He would get there at about -- either at Haley's apartment or they would meet at then Idyllwild Airport at a hotel, and Malcolm would be debriefed by Haley. He would talk, Haley would take notes. Malcolm had a habit of scribbling notes in small pieces of paper that Haley would surreptitiously pick up at the end of their discussions. Malcolm's objective was actually to reingratiate himself within the Nation of Islam, that because he had emerged by the early 1960s as a very prominent figure outside of the N.O.I., there were critics within the organization that were saying to the patriarch of the N.O.I., the Honorable Elijah Mohammad, that Malcolm planned to take over the organization, which was not true. But nevertheless, Malcolm felt that if he could make a public -- a prominent public statement to show his fidelity to the Honorable Elijah Mohammad that that might win him back in the good graces of the organization. But there were internal critics, sharp critics, who were very opposed to him, and who were very -- some of them were members of Elijah Mohammad's family, such as Herbert Mohammad, Raymond Shareef, who was the head of the Fruit of Islam, the brother-in-law of -- the son-in-law of Elijah Mohammad. They isolated Malcolm X and kept him out of the newspaper of the organization Mohammad Speaks for over a year, which is kind of curious. He was the national spokesperson of the N.O.I., and he wasn't represented in their own newspaper for over a year. Haley's objective was quite different. Haley was a republican. He was an integrationist. He was very opposed to black nationalism. His objective was to illustrate that the racial separatism of the N.O.I. was a kind of pathological or a kind of -- it was the logical culmination of separatism and racial isolationism and exclusion. He wanted to show the negative aspects of the N.O.I.'s ideology, Yacub's history, and all of the ramifications of racial separatism that he felt were negative, and that Malcolm, being as charismatic as he was, a very attractive figure, nevertheless, he embodied these kind of negative traits. Haley felt he could make a solid case in favor of racial integration by showing what was -- to white America -- what was the consequence of their support for racial separatism that would end up producing a kind of hate, the hate that hate produced, to use the phrase that Mike Wallace used in his 1959 documentary on the Nation of Islam. So, the two men for very different reasons came together. What is striking is that from almost from the very beginning of certainly by September and October of 1963, as the book was being constructed, that Haley was vetting -- asking questions to the publisher and to the publisher's attorney regarding many of the things that Malcolm was saying. He was worried that he would not have a book that would have the kind of sting that he wanted. He was also concerned, to use Haley's phrase, about the purported anti-Semitism of Malcolm X, and so he began to rewrite words or passages in the book without Malcolm's knowledge. And Haley, in his own -- this is prior to emails -- Haley had a tendency to write even more frequently and voluminously to his agents and his editors than he did putting pen to paper in his own books. So that one finds in Haley's archives, or the archives of Anne Romaine, who was going to be his biographer until her tragic death in 1995, one finds a copious series of notes from Haley to his editors and attorneys regarding the construction of the autobiography itself. He wanted to steer the book to accomplish his political goals, as well as Malcolm's goals...


now this is from manning marable - who is not NOI. those who reject bro. wazir's information, do you also reject this:

quote:
....The F.B.I. was very happy with the article they produced, which was entitled, "The Black Merchants of Hate," that came out in early 1963. What's significant about that piece is that that became the template for what evolved into the basic narrative structure of The Autobiography of Malcolm X....


those who don't trust anything that comes from "the NOI" do you also not trust anything that comes from the FBI, including portions of malcolm's autobiography? if you accept that the FBI's influence is in the book, how do you know which parts are tainted and which parts are true?
1Mile? What is your point?

Tell me how you've advance the discussion beyond the point where SHANGO said this:

quote:
Not me, brother. I know how to read.

The quote YOU provided dealt with what the PRESS reported. I know white folks were setting up the NOI. This is a fact.



It's clear SHANGO laid out the very thing that answers your question as you continue on with this version of your Apologetics.


quote:
I know you think so... but to students of our history, there is nothing new here.


... AS STUDENTS OF HISTORY. That's how! And folk who are inclined to dismiss things from the NOI can very well be just as dismissive of Marable. Most folk ain't in love with people who come from the hard-core Black Radical Tradition. A lot of Black folk favor and are invested in capitalism... That puts them at odds with Marable's worldview.


quote:
The Nation of Islam was the dominant black nationalist formation during the period after the Garvey black nationalist movement of the 1920s through the black power insurgence of the 1960s. So to begin talking about Malcolm we've got to talk about the Nation of Islam. Born in Detroit's African American neighborhoods during the Great Depression, this creator and first prophet was an obscure salesman. The Honorable D.W. Fard, after preaching for four years an ideology which was a mixture of Sunni Islam and black nationalism, succeeded in recruiting to his cause about 8,000 converts by the middle of the 1930s. He established the Fruit of Islam, a paramilitary organization, the Muslim Girls Training Class, a school specifically for women members of the nation, and the University of Islam. After Fard's disappearance or death, his chief lieutenant, Elijah Muhammad, became the leader of this religious and black nationalist movement. During the 1930s a number of people in the movement fought for leadership with the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. So Elijah Muhammad moved his organization and the basis of his support from Detroit to Chicago by the early 1940s.

At this point an event took place that greatly accelerated the development of the Nation of Islam. Muhammad was convicted and imprisoned unjustly during World War II for resisting the draft. While he was a federal prison in a federal penitentiary, Elijah Muhammad looked around him and began to realize that African American churches, the NAACP, the Urban League, the other civil rights organizations, made no efforts to recruit the most oppressed, most victimized of all African American people: the black prisoners. So it was Elijah Muhammad in his genius who recognized that there was no program to recruit and transform the most depressed of his race, those who were addicted to narcotics, pimps, convicts, young delinquents, prostitutes, the permanently unemployed and the undereducated. During the postwar period, the Nation of Islam began to focus on the most oppressed African American group. The results were astonishing. By 1960, the nation's membership was between 65,000 to 100,000 nationwide. During Elijah Muhammad's tight discipline and his pro-black nationalist creed, thousands of people addicted to drugs quit their dependence on narcotics. People who had been depressed, people outside of jobs, people outside of hope found a sense of humanity, a sense of human dignity by joining the Nation of Islam. Over three fourths of the nation's members by 1960 were young African Americans between the ages of eighteen to thirty five. Members donated a significant portion of their personal income, as much as one third of their annual income, to the nation, which was used to construct Islamic schools, temples, and businesses. In Chicago alone, by 1960 the Nation of Islam owned one half million dollars worth of real estate. The nation's expansion during the 1950s was also largely attributable to Elijah Muhammad's recruitment of a most gifted and very charismatic spokesperson named Malcolm Little.

Malcolm Little was converted to the Nation of Islam while he was imprisoned. He had been a petty hustler, a criminal in Boston and New York's ghettos. Leaving prison in 1952, Malcolm Little was renamed Malcolm X, the X symbolically repudiating the white man's name which he had carried. Elijah Muhammad carefully nurtured Malcolm X's career into the organization's hierarchy. By 1955 Malcolm had become the minister of Harlem's Temple No. 7. He increasingly in the late 1950s began to travel throughout the country, an articulate spokesperson and orator as Aaron was to Moses in a sense, delivering what he believed to be the truth to liberate his people. Political leaders began to relate to the Nation of Islam, recognizing that Elijah Muhammad's absolute control over so many thousands and thousands of potential voters represented an important political power block. So Adam Clayton Powell, Jr., the most prominent black elected official during this period, attended a leadership conference staged by Malcolm X in Harlem in 1960. Fidel Castro the same year met with Malcolm for private political discussions.

Simultaneously, unknown fully to Elijah Muhammad and Malcolm X, the Federal Bureau of Investigation made the decision to thoroughly infiltrate the Nation of Islam. They had already had agents in the organization since the 1940s. But what is very clear is that as the nation began to grow, to assume a great deal of leadership, not just over 100,000 people but over several million African Americans who looked to the nation with respect, that is when the FBI made the decision to infiltrate in a very sophisticated manner. The Nation of Islam's temples were wire tapped illegally. No court orders. The FBI doesn't worry about legality. The Nation of Islam's members began to be watched. Their taxes began to be looked at.

Malcolm's letters in 1955 and 1956 were seized in the mail, transcribed and sent on by the FBI. This is all illegal. By 1960 the surveillance on Malcolm began to accelerate dramatically. So you had a number of agents who were specifically charged in various headquarters to follow and document the movements and statements of Malcolm X. As the Nation of Islam prospered, white liberals and black integrationists became fearful of the movement's stunning success in attracting working class African Americans and low income people. Scholars studied the nation and drew parallels, they said, between the Nation of Islam and the rise of fascism in Europe. White sociologist described the nation as "the hate that hate produced," a racial cult similar to "Hitler and the white citizens' councils of the South." A black sociologist and writer, C. Eric Lincoln, in Black Muslims in America, expressed the concern that "the black Muslims virulent attacks on the white man might threaten the security of the white majority and lead those in power to tighten the barriers which already divide America." Civil rights leaders began to speak out against the Nation of Islam. In August 1959, Roy Wilkins, then the head of the NAACP, declared that the Nation of Islam had a "white hate doctrine which was as dangerous as any group of white racists." The Nation of Islam clearly "furnishes ammunition for the use of white supremacists." James Farmer of CORE denounced the Nation as "utterly impractical and dangerous." Farmer argued, "after the black culture was taken from us during slavery, we had to adopt to the culture here." So Farmer reasoned, by rejecting integration, the Muslims were aiding and abetting the dynamic of racial segregation.

But with a sure grasp of African American history, Malcolm X responded to Farmer this way: "We who are Muslims, followers of Elijah Muhammad, do not think that an integrated cup of coffee is sufficient payment for 310 years of slave labor in America." [applause] Malcolm understood that there was something fundamentally flawed with the philosophy of liberal integrationism if being an integrationist meant that you wanted to integrate with the mainstream. If the mainstream was racism, capitalist exploitation, all kinds of ideologies which were backward and antihuman, why would you want to integrate with a sewer? This is what Malcolm argued. [applause] Malcolm argued that it is not a case of dark mankind wanting either integration or separation. It is a case of wanting freedom, justice and equality. It is not integration that most Negros in America want, it is human dignity. That accounts for Malcolm X's meteoric rise in popularity among millions of African American people, most of whom were not members of the Nation of Islam, most of whom did not hear him preach in the temples of the Nation, but heard him in other venues outside of the dynamics of his religious organization.

http://www.zmag.org/ZMag/articles/barmarable.htm


As far as that Democracy Now episode...
To Kill A Black Messiah: Malcolm X, 40 years after...

Wasn't much discussion there but the info. was duly noted.



___________ ___________________ ___________
Last edited {1}
quote:
no, you don't. given your stated level of intelligence, i'm surprised that you're satisfied to allow someone else to do your thinking for you.


I keep telling you that I met and talked to NOI members decades ago. I keep telling you I have read and watched multiple sources of info about the NOI. One book was a series of essays collected by David Galen one of which talked about 10 murders of people trying to leave the NOI. But you want to talk like I'm so ignorant and stupid because I don't get excited about some material that to me was obviously uninformative.

Do you go around digging in every pile of dirt you encounter on the chance there might be diamonds in it?

You just sound like the stereotypical NOI member to me. Anybody that doesn't buy the NOI tunnel vision perspective of reality is a dummy brainwashed by the White man.

YAWN!

umbra
quote:
Originally posted by umbrarchist:
quote:
no, you don't. given your stated level of intelligence, i'm surprised that you're satisfied to allow someone else to do your thinking for you.


I keep telling you that I met and talked to NOI members decades ago. I keep telling you I have read and watched multiple sources of info about the NOI. One book was a series of essays collected by David Galen one of which talked about 10 murders of people trying to leave the NOI. But you want to talk like I'm so ignorant and stupid because I don't get excited about some material that to me was obviously uninformative.

Do you go around digging in every pile of dirt you encounter on the chance there might be diamonds in it?

You just sound like the stereotypical NOI member to me. Anybody that doesn't buy the NOI tunnel vision perspective of reality is a dummy brainwashed by the White man.

YAWN!

umbra



You should also read Inside The Nation of Islam: A Historical And Personal Testimony By A Black Muslim by Vibert L. White Jr. aka Vibert X - a former NOI minister who worked directly under Farrakhan.
no umbra, my point was, and shall continue to be, that if you're in this topic, which was primarily based on material that you have yet to read in its entirety and with open mind, you are violating laws of intelligence by jumping into the middle of the discussion as though you have anything to offer on what this topic was based on.

you've admitted that you have a lot to offer based on your bias toward/against the NOI and - though you may think you were saying something negative to me - your words should, appropriately be turned around and given back to you in the hopes that you will take them, look in the mirror, and repeat them:

You just sound like the typical anti-NOI person to me. Anybody that doesn't buy the anti-NOI irrational, emotion-based perspective of reality is a dummy and robot following NOI dictates and can't think for themself.

i don't know if you'll answer this question or skirt around it and answer 5 pages down the line but, did you read the democracy now interview with manning marable? he's not NOI. that interview has been put out on the table for discussion in this thread. since you are all up in here - will you read the interview or find an excuse not to? if you have an excuse ... or i should give you the benefit of the doubt and say "reason" - if you have a reason for not reading THAT interview - please state what it is.

thank you.
quote:
Originally posted by 1milehi:


just because you and 2-3 others didn't get anything "new" or beneficial from the info - big deal! you all don't represent anybody other than yourselves unless you are guilty of what was pointed out in the article: thinking more of yourselves than you ought.



Generally speaking, I've found it to be good policy to think more highly of myself than I do of some bean pie eating bow tie wearing fool claiming to be God... this policy has gotten me far in life ... munch
well unfortunately, honest brother, seeing as how you came in the thread talking about a mothership instead of the topic, that speaks for itself as to how "far" your level of development has gotten you in life. umbra also came in talking about his advancement or his level of intelligence and even his high IQ, i believe - as if folks who clicked on the topic link came in to read about that.

but okay. you two are far advanced, or have self-proclaimed yourselves as that, but you are unable to come in and deal with this particular topic in a better manner. as the saying goes............... "whatever floats your boat." if you want everyone to give two hand claps for how far you've gotten in life and umbra's alleged high IQ ..... *clap* *clap*, that's my donation to your cause.
quote:
Originally posted by 1milehi:
well unfortunately, honest brother, seeing as how you came in the thread talking about a mothership instead of the topic, that speaks for itself as to how "far" your level of development has gotten you in life.


Don't you even go there. You started defending the "white man was grafted from the black man" teaching like it was common sense .... then I threw in the mother ship teaching as another example of outlandish NOI nonsense ... and then in typical NOI fashion you changed the subject ... like I was the one who was crazy ... do NOT start in with me ... I will roast your ass ... you'll be having your own ass for dinner ... .... and loving the flava ... wondering why you never tried ass before ...

You don't want none ...
regardless of whom or what HB, you came in with the mothership comment, and followed up with some other comments that don't seem to go along with your claim of so called advancement. now i know you may be upset because i only gave you 2 hand claps but i can't give anymore than that because the 2 were being over-generous in the first place. maybe some others will chime in and add more to the bank to soothe and stroke that aching ego ;-)

LOL

oh - as far as roasting my azz ..... brother, brother, brother. isn't that below your proclaimed level of advancement? is roasting azzes what the intellectually superior do in their spare time?
quote:
Originally posted by 1milehi:
for the THIRD time - did you even read the article umbra?

good god amighty!

as far as NOI mythology - what does that have to do with the information in the interview ... the interview that you didn't even read and yet are all up in the discussion. what are you afraid of?

the NOI teaches that white people were grafted out of black people .. you know grafting, the scientific process that white folks are utilizing today in their labs? if you think that is mythology what is your explanation for how white people came to be on the planet?

let's hear it.


Here's what you posted right before my mothership comment ...

You were challenging the notion that NOI teachings have high myth content by defending the "reasonableness" of the Jakub theory ... so I threw in another teaching that is not as "reasonable" ... It was you who "changed the subject" ...

PS: Yes ... as a matter of fact, I'm a champion ass roaster ... but I'll only serve that ass with the best wines ...
Just when I was about to say, "Damn, HB... Why you trippin' like this?" here it is you point out the very type of biased Apologetics that just can't move 1Mile's thread/topic where she would like for it to go.


And this...

quote:

Yes ... as a matter of fact, I'm a champion ass roaster ... but I'll only serve that ass with the best wines ...


... this got me all teary eyed like a proud papa.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Just when I was about to say, "Damn, HB... Why you trippin' like this?" here it is you point out the very type of biased Apologetics that just can't move 1Mile's thread/topic where she would like for it to go.


And this...

quote:

Yes ... as a matter of fact, I'm a champion ass roaster ... but I'll only serve that ass with the best wines ...


... this got me all teary eyed like a proud papa.



Ahhhhhhh, Nate ... I'm touched ... I'm glad I did you proud. Smile
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Just when I was about to say, "Damn, HB... Why you trippin' like this?" here it is you point out the very type of biased Apologetics that just can't move 1Mile's thread/topic where she would like for it to go.


And this...

quote:

Yes ... as a matter of fact, I'm a champion ass roaster ... but I'll only serve that ass with the best wines ...


... this got me all teary eyed like a proud papa.



Ahhhhhhh, Nate ... I'm touched ... I'm glad I did you proud. Smile


I'm proud of you too, bro. You were scaring me for a second because it's rare for me to see you go off like that, but you got 1Mile backed into a corner. That's the ole African America No BS/STFU school of debate. appl

Another proud graduate of STFUniversity. 3
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Just when I was about to say, "Damn, HB... Why you trippin' like this?" here it is you point out the very type of biased Apologetics that just can't move 1Mile's thread/topic where she would like for it to go.


And this...

quote:

Yes ... as a matter of fact, I'm a champion ass roaster ... but I'll only serve that ass with the best wines ...


... this got me all teary eyed like a proud papa.



Ahhhhhhh, Nate ... I'm touched ... I'm glad I did you proud. Smile


I'm proud of you too, bro. You were scaring me for a second because it's rare for me to see you go off like that, but you got 1Mile backed into a corner. That's the ole African America No BS/STFU school of debate. appl

Another proud graduate of STFUniversity. 3

yeah

Well done, HB... Smile
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
BV... I have to check your papers. Don't know if your degree is notarized. LOL!


Aren't we supposed to have some beef or something? LOL!


--------------------------------------------------

Anyway. What's up, B?

Sorry Nmag, if you orginally posted this... I missed it. What's up with what? Do we have a beef or something?
I'm just playing... But I do remember reading somewhere where you referenced someone (probably me, if not others) who tripped off your handle - BLACK + Viking. I did...


Also, I am the Provost President of STFU. I don't know you. LOL! You haven't been accepted into my university. Or have you? (It was all lighthearted. Don't make it heavy.)



The "What's Up?" was a greeting, BTW. As in "How Are You Doing?"
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
I'm just playing... But I do remember reading somewhere where you referenced someone (probably me, if not others) who tripped off your handle - BLACK + Viking. I did...

That was a long time ago. I'd actually forgotten about that. Smile

I did recently get into a mighty long scrap with Shango67 which was (in part) regarding my screen name. I honestly don't worry about it much though. I know what's happening when people go there. And I know it won't be the last time.

quote:
Also, I am the Provost President of STFU. I don't know you. LOL! You haven't been accepted into my university. Or have you?

Nmag, I'm wounded... Big Grin I've been telling a lot of people to STFU lately. Your going to have to give me a honorary membership eventually.

quote:
(It was all lighthearted. Don't make it heavy.)

I know, I'm just playing. Smile

quote:
The "What's Up?" was a greeting, BTW. As in "How Are You Doing?"

I've been doing just great actually. I'm not posting as much as I used to, because I've been real busy. I'm also being more selective about the discussions I get involved in. Some issues (and people) just aren't worth the effort, ya know?

But, I'm glad to see you back around, and since I know that you've read the Covenant... I'm looking forward to reading you comments on it. Smile
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Here's what you posted right before my mothership comment ...


and evidently you forget HB, that i posted this to you:

quote:
honest brother, i asked you what your question (about the motherplane) had to do with the article. you come back talking about "okay, i read it. what am i supposed to get out of it?"


another person who can't answer a direct question but would have us to believe in his far level of "advancement" just like another person, who couldn't answer a direct question, but would have us to believe something about his outstanding IQ.

you know what i say ..... do your thing!

quote:
PS: Yes ... as a matter of fact, I'm a champion ass roaster ... but I'll only serve that ass with the best wines ...


well, i know you'd like to believe it with all your heart but you ain't doing no azz roasting up in here, IMO. with you and others unable to answer simple, direct questions you roasted your own azz cause that's some straight, weak, you-know-what. but do your thing HB.
1Mile, sorry but, from this, there is no recovering:

quote:
the NOI teaches that white people were grafted out of black people .. you know grafting, the scientific process that white folks are utilizing today in their labs? if you think that is mythology what is your explanation for how white people came to be on the planet?

let's hear it.
When a person talks to imaginary friends... Now that's sad.


"Officially Dismissed" Big Grin


Yeah, that's about the status of your topic. Hmmmm....

quote:
*shaking head* and you're 54 years old? if you didn't read the article, all you had to do was say that. but i guess that would have meant you would have had to concede how anti-intelligence it was for you to be attempting to jump into a discussion on that which you had not read.

if you only jumped around in the article and jumped back out claiming to have found nothing, that's like someone quickly glancing over a pile of dirt and concluding there's nothing in there but had they taken the time, they might have found the diamonds that were hidden in the pile.

but anyway - thank you for answering on page 5 of this thread what you were asked on page 1 (or 2). and you're really 54 years old, right?
quote:
umbra, i stand by my statement. if you had of admitted that you had not read the article, that would mean you would have had to concede that - as malcolm used to say - you were "operating against the laws of intelligence" by even trying to discuss, analyze and critique something that you had not read. you shouldn't even be trying to get around that.

you cannot judge what is in the interview by what you read in an autobiography, or by anything else you have read. you should be judging the contents of the interview by what they are and since you don't know what they are - it is anti-intelligence for you to be comparing them to other things you took the time to read when you did not do the same, i.e. READ with an open mind, with the interview.

that's what i'm saying. it's just like N told you earlier in the thread - you're judging a book by the cover and that's just shouldn't be the case given your previously stated level of intellgence.

no, i'm not under 35. you don't trust "the NOI" but "the NOI" was not interviewed. the person who was interviewed is not the people you encountered in your youth. but my motto is "do your thing." i may not trust "50-some year old men who can't answer direct questions" - but that doesn't stop me from giving you the benefit of the doubt and reading your words. but that's me and you're you.

i don't know if i was making assumptions. i think any of us would be surprised at someone 50 years old skirting around a question like you did earlier. and then giving the explanation that you gave to N - *shrug* it's just surprising to me that someone 50 years old operates like that - but do your thing.

no, you don't. given your stated level of intelligence, i'm surprised that you're satisfied to allow someone else to do your thinking for you.

and i believe negrospiritual is one of the ones who said there was "nothing" new in the article. people can say that but i truly fail to believe that that is true, so yes, i'm saying there's a bit of dishonesty in that.

i know for those who are not up on NOI history, there are some things in there that they wouldn't possibly know. the small bit that was shared about malcolm's brothers - you mean to tell me that those who say there's nothing "new" in the article knew that? if they didn't know those things then it's not accurate to say there's nothing "new" in the piece. so, i don't know what the purpose is in using that phrase because, IMO, it cannot possibly be accurate for anybody on this board.

malcolm taught that the reason jesus spoke in parables was to discern the condition of people's hearts. did you know he taught that? if you didn't, that's something "new" that you would have found in the piece had you had the ability to sit down and read it instead of finding excuses not to.
quote:
no umbra, my point was, and shall continue to be, that if you're in this topic, which was primarily based on material that you have yet to read in its entirety and with open mind, you are violating laws of intelligence by jumping into the middle of the discussion as though you have anything to offer on what this topic was based on.

you've admitted that you have a lot to offer based on your bias toward/against the NOI and - though you may think you were saying something negative to me - your words should, appropriately be turned around and given back to you in the hopes that you will take them, look in the mirror, and repeat them:

You just sound like the typical anti-NOI person to me. Anybody that doesn't buy the anti-NOI irrational, emotion-based perspective of reality is a dummy and robot following NOI dictates and can't think for themself.

i don't know if you'll answer this question or skirt around it and answer 5 pages down the line but, did you read the democracy now interview with manning marable? he's not NOI. that interview has been put out on the table for discussion in this thread. since you are all up in here - will you read the interview or find an excuse not to? if you have an excuse ... or i should give you the benefit of the doubt and say "reason" - if you have a reason for not reading THAT interview - please state what it is.

thank you.


lol
well, for any who are attempting to follow the topic, and affiliated side points......

it's interesting when you compare the 2 interviews that were posted up for discussion:

the one from black house: http://bhonline.org/index.php?topic=130.0

and the one from democracy now: http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/02/21/1458213

there are some points that bro. wazir made which are corroborated by statements manning marable made to democracy now. for instance:


marable talks about how malcolm broke with the NOI in 1964 and spent most of the following months, prior to his assassination, outside of the country. likewise, bro. wazir mentioned how malcolm's sister had to tell him to come back from africa to take care of the organization (s) he was in charge of. when he came back, that's when malcolm was killed.

in another place, bro. wazir said that malcolm was trying to do a lot of things before time and that much of what he was trying to do is being fulfilled today by min. farrakhan. bro. marable said:

quote:
...I believe that if we could see the chapters that are missing from the book, we would gain an understanding as to why perhaps -- perhaps -- the F.B.I., the C.I.A., the New York Police Department and others in law enforcement greatly feared what Malcolm X was about, because he was trying to build a broad -- an unprecedented black coalition across the lines of black nationalism and integration. And in way, it presages 30 years ahead of time, the Million Man March....


now, someone commented that i was backed into a corner but it would seem that those truly backed into a corner are those who had all kinds of reasons to disregard or downplay bro. wazir yet they don't say a peep about what manning marable, a highly respected scholar and intellectual has to say. and some of the things he has to say are right in line with bro. wazir.

now who's really backed in a corner?
quote:
marable talks about how malcolm broke with the NOI in 1964 and spent most of the following months, prior to his assassination, outside of the country. likewise, bro. wazir mentioned how malcolm's sister had to tell him to come back from africa to take care of the organization (s) he was in charge of. when he came back, that's when malcolm was killed.


______ _________ _____________ _________

quote:
in another place, bro. wazir said that malcolm was trying to do a lot of things before time and that much of what he was trying to do is being fulfilled today by min. farrakhan


______ _________ _____________ _________


Now that would explain this:

quote:
the NOI teaches that white people were grafted out of black people .. you know grafting, the scientific process that white folks are utilizing today in their labs? if you think that is mythology what is your explanation for how white people came to be on the planet?

let's hear it.
quote:
i agree but to me there's still the matter of the false image that was built up by the enemy of us all. you and i may have respect for elijah muhammad but there are still some/many who know nothing of the matter other than the story that paints malcolm as hero and elijah muhammad/NOI as villains. nothing that malcolm did of good and value should be taken away but what is the process by which the falsehood of the malcolm/NOI story can be extracted from the whole so that there is more balance from all angles? that's the thing to me. you and i may be all right in our view but there's still funk in the air and lack of clarity in the minds of some who only know what's been fed to them from those who have an agenda to keep a rift going amongst malcolm supporters and those who love elijah muhammad and min farrakhan.


CORROBORATION?


This does NOT:

quote:
marable talks about how malcolm broke with the NOI in 1964 and spent most of the following months, prior to his assassination, outside of the country. likewise, bro. wazir mentioned how malcolm's sister had to tell him to come back from africa to take care of the organization (s) he was in charge of. when he came back, that's when malcolm was killed.


Non-sequitur is what that is.

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