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To answer your question, MBM,

quote:
Apparently what those of you who support gun ownership believe is that the government is not able to adequately protect you, therefore you need guns to supplement their effort.


It goes a little deeper than that. I don't believe I should have to depend on the government alone to protect me from the run of the mill criminal. The cops wouldn't have stopped my friend's intruder in time, but a bullet from her gun would have, if she had one. Everyone has a fundamental right to protect themselves. In the article I linked to, the attitude the British took was that people should leave their protection up to professionals. That is only workable if the "professionals" can be everywhere at once. They can't. There weren't any cops to assist the students at that school in Virginia, but the students assisted themselves and reduced the body count.

The "leave it to the professionals" ties in with your second question: no, we shouldn't do away with the police. They have the manpower, the forensic teams, et cetera to track down criminals. If someone is in a hit and run, they shouldn't have to track down the plates and analyze the tire tracks for themselves. The average person can't or won't analyze paint samples. The average person lacks the authority to interrogate suspects and witnesses. The police do more than just protect; they'll always have a function to fulfill regardless of whether a populace is armed.

If everyone is armed, will the criminal be deterred? That seems likely--when have you ever heard of crimes at the Dunkin Donuts? Or whichever donut store the cops prefer big grin Also, Switzerland requires every household to have a gun. They also have very low gun crime, in fact little violent crime at all. Coincidence?
Hello everyone,

In the States of Texas and Arizona, virtually every resident carries a side arm, to which the rate of crime is very low as it compares to States that have strict gun control legislation or enforcement.

As the majority of posters have stated, every gun of legal ownership can be removed from a legal gun owners possession, but the police officers, and criminals will continue to have a huge selection of guns to choose from to create bodily harm or otherwise. Heck, many Caucasians teach their young people how to use and maintain fire arms before they reach their teenage years. Should U.S. citizens of Black American heritage turn in their weapons, our community would be the most vulnerable, because it is very doubtful that Caucasian America or otherwise, will ever turn in all their weapons.

A couple of years ago, Los Angeles City Councilman Nate Holden, offered a reward to every gun owner, be it a gang member or otherwise, who turned in a fire arm for compensation. Many individuals brought in weapons by the truck load to receive compensation for weapons that were defective or basically useless.

What a deal, in that a gun owner receives good compensation to the tune of perhaps one hundred dollars per weapon for a fire arm that is only fit to be used for the scrap metal salvage yard, while keeping all working firearms in their possession. In jest, gun owners, who received money from the Los Angeles City council, took their money and ran, all with the blessings of the taxpayers of the City of Los Angeles.

After 9/11, the West Coast news media was shocked to find military weapons of all sorts in Jewish Temples of worship, to be used by the Jewish community to protect themselves against any Islamic threat within the confines of the U.S. These individuals did not just arm themselves as of 9/11, because Jewish and Caucasian Americans are the largest manufacturers and/or owners, of weapons of destruction of all forms. It would not be a surprise in the least to learn that a bazooka, granades, military assault weapons, missile launchers, etc., exists within any community of Caucasian America, perhaps within their own residence of abode, to protect themselves against any enemy be it foreign or domestic.

Although there have been accidents due to foul play, a pistol is only harmless when misused, abused, or left in an area of easy access for a minor to play with, to which the gun and ammunition should have been kept out of reach for any minor to use in the first place.

Any loaded firearm by itself, is perfectly harmless unless abused, or misused through an act of negligence, or purposely used as an act of aggression against another for whatever reason.

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on October 27, 2002 at 06:36 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by Lofton:

Any loaded firearm by itself, is perfectly harmless unless abused, or misused through an act of negligence, or purposely used as an act of aggression against another for whatever reason.



Michael, you are right, of course. Do the statistics (like those below) suggest that we make more mistakes and use guns in reality in ways that are more destructive than they should be? Do these statistics concern you?


  • For every case in which an individual used a firearm kept in the home in a self-defense homicide, there were 1.3 unintentional deaths, 4.6 criminal homicides, and 37 suicides involving firearms.


  • A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a homicide, suicide or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.
    - Kellerman AL, Lee RK, Mercy JA, et al. "The Epidemiological Basis for the Prevention of Firearm Injuries." Annu. Rev. Public Health. 1991; 12:17-40


  • Members of handgun-owning families were twice as likely to die in a suicide or homicide as members of the same age, sex, and neighborhood who had no history of handgun purchase.
    These increased risks persisted for more than five years after the purchase.


  • Suicide is still the leading cause of firearm death in the U.S., representing 57% of total gun deaths nationwide. In 1999, firearm suicides totaled 16,599 of all gun deaths in the U.S. Not surprisingly, most suicides in the U.S. are committed with firearms; in 1999, 57% of all suicides were committed with guns.
    - CDC National Center for Health Statistics report "Deaths: Final Data for 1999." Vol. 49, No. 8)


  • 10 children are killed by guns in the U.S. every day, on average.




  • Onward and Upward!
    Hello Mr. MBM,

    "Michael, you are right, of course. Do the statistics (like those below) suggest that we make more mistakes and use guns in reality in ways that are more destructive than they should be? Do these statistics concern you?" by MBM

    The statistics are very alarming. With education about the use and maintenance of fire arms, the respect given, will reduce the tendency for such high incidence of the misuse of firearms.

    I don't see any worthwhile reason for any law abiding citizen to give up the possession of a single firearm in the name of safety, because the criminal element will always be armed to the "Max", and Caucasian Americans, and/or otherwise are not about to lay down the first of any one of the weapons, ammunition, or otherwise, to which they own or manufacture.

    Sincerely,

    Michael Lofton

    [This message was edited by Lofton on October 27, 2002 at 06:59 PM.]
    Hello MBM,

    One of your statistics,

    quote:
    Members of handgun-owning families were twice as likely to die in a suicide or homicide as members of the same age, sex, and neighborhood who had no history of handgun purchase.
    These increased risks persisted for more than five years after the purchase.


    This is a curious statistic to me, because I strongly suspect that where the homicide part is concerned it has everything to do with the relative who does the killing. They would have killed. The lack of a gun would not have saved those victims, and the suicides could always take some Valium. Guns don't have a mystical siren song that calls out to peaceful, happy, law abiding citizens. Likely, a lot of those family homicides are domestic violence situations or similar. At any rate, I doubt the person who would shoot a relative is innocent of other crimes.

    As for the unintential shootings, I would like to see a breakdown of that. Does it involve kids playing with guns? Teach them what a gun can do, and they'll learn to respect them. Does it involve accidents cleaning a gun? Train owners how to properly do it. I'm drawing a blank right now on other possibilities for accidental shootings, but I would like to know what those involve.
    Lea,

    "The "leave it to the professionals" ties in with your second question: no, we shouldn't do away with the police. They have the manpower, the forensic teams, et cetera to track down criminals. If someone is in a hit and run, they shouldn't have to track down the plates and analyze the tire tracks for themselves. The average person can't or won't analyze paint samples. The average person lacks the authority to interrogate suspects and witnesses. The police do more than just protect; they'll always have a function to fulfill regardless of whether a populace is armed."by Lea

    I have qualms with this statement, because within inner-city Black America, the police use a double standard of law enforcement, namely selective law enforcement which denies "Equal Justice and Protection Under the Law" to many truly innocent U.S citizens of Black American heritage.

    I know personally of incidents where truly law abiding citizens of Black America heritage have provided police officers with evidence as to criminal wrongdoing, and the police officers, be it Caucasian, Black, Hispanic, Korean, or otherwise, specifically as it relates to the Los Angeles Police Department in this instance, drag their feet in criminal investigation, criminal interrogation, criminal apprehension, etc.

    In many instances, should a truly law abiding U.S. citizen of Black American heritage summons the police to effect an arrest, the party who summons the police to serve, protect, and/or defend, will instead be treated as a criminal suspect.

    Your statement may be valid in the community of Caucasian America, but within the community of Black America, law enforcement, including "community based policing", leaves much to be desired.

    Sincerely,

    Michael Lofton

    [This message was edited by Lofton on October 27, 2002 at 08:35 PM.]
    Hello Lofton,

    About this quote,

    quote:
    I have qualms with this statement, because within inner-city Black America, the police use a double standard of law enforcement, namely selective law enforcement to protect the interests of Caucasian Americans, and the "Hell" with everyone else.


    That's a problem. I will add then, that the cops are the ones who *can* do what they *should* do. What I'm wondering now, is to what extent is this protect white people/screw black people situation occuring in majority black cities? What I learned was *supposed* to happen is that if there are more black cops, black folks are better off. If this is untrue, then I wonder if private police forces are a good idea. I'm thinking more of a professional neighborhood watch, a group of people patrolling a neighborhood or something along those lines. They can't do everything cops can do, of course, but an armed citizenry keeping watch might lower the need for the police in the first place.

    Off topic, but are you having trouble with the quote function? It works like this:
    [] blah blah blah []
    except that the word quote is in the first bracket, and the second bracket has /quote (slash quote). Whatever you're quoting goes between the bracket sets.
    Well Lea,

    "What I'm wondering now, is to what extent is this protect white people/screw black people situation occuring in majority black cities? What I learned was *supposed* to happen is that if there are more black cops, black folks are better off." by Lea

    It makes no difference because there are good as well as bad police officers within the police department. Just here recently, during the tenure of former Police Chief Bernard Parks, a truly innocent unarmed prominent Black actor was killed, shot in the back multiple times to be exact, by a Black Los Angeles Police officer at a Halloween Party, in the affluence of a "Hollywood Hills" mansion, which made the headlines of the Los Angeles Times newspaper.

    The picture as published by the Los Angeles Times, surely convicted the Los Angeles Police Department, namely guilty as charged, because the police version by drawing of circumstances of the misuse of a firearm of this Black Los Angeles Police Officer, depicted this unarmed truly innocent Black Hollywood actor as having his back turned to police officers with a gun pointed at police with his arm stretched behind his back, to in some way cover up police criminal wrong doing.

    To make a long story short, former Police Chief Bernard Parks exhonorated the L.A.P.D. of any criminal wrongdoing, to which make no mistake this was truly an unwarranted, unjustified, illegal, un-American, criminal police shooting on the part of the Los Angeles Police Department.

    As I speak, the residents of Black Los Angeles have been extremely quiet about this incident of criminal wrongdoing on the part of Los Angeles police officers. Had this police officer been Caucasian, there would have been a huge response, perhaps even another civil disturbance in an uprising such as the civil unrest of 1992.

    Sincerely,

    Michael Lofton

    [This message was edited by Lofton on October 27, 2002 at 09:10 PM.]
    MBM, thanks, pushing the button is the step I missed. I was just trying to show what the process looked like without setting it off.

    Lofton, in that case, I would just go with the volunteer patrols. Recruit retired military guys and good retired cops, get some other volunteers, and police our own. Prevention is the best cure, et cetera.
    Hello Lea,

    "Lofton, in that case, I would just go with the volunteer patrols. Recruit retired military guys and good retired cops, get some other volunteers, and police our own. Prevention is the best cure, et cetera." by Lea

    The intense pressure of civil lawsuit for redress in the form of numerous multi-million dollar lawsuits for damages, such as the many incidents concerning the "Rampart Scandal", and many other incidents, including the one mentioned in the previous post have subjected the entire LAPD to intense scrutiny.

    It is hoped that the up and coming legal professionals of Black America, who will soon graduate from law school are listening out there. This type of civil law practice can be very interesting, lucrative, and productive in terms of the benefit derived from protecting the U.S. citizenship rights of the truly law abiding of Black America, and making a lucrative living at the same time.

    Very few civil Black attorneys are profficient in this type of law, concerning the specialty of civil tort practice, the use of U.S. Constitutional law, etc., to protect the rights of the truly law abiding of Black America. Should any Black attorney be very good at this type of law, and I'm not referring to the Johnny Cochran form of legal representation because neither Attorney Johnny Cochran nor his law firm practice this type of law, the reward to both the client and the legal counsel doing the representing will be beyond all dreams. This type of legal practice, and/or political representation will, without a doubt, bring more wealth into the community of inner-city Black America, than ever thought possible. So far the elected representatives of Black America don't have a clue as to what is referrenced here.

    I have not yet counted out the younger generation of future legal professionals of Black America, and/or future elected representatives, who are also products of the "Hood", because in many instances the younger generation is bolder, hungrier, fearless, very creative, less willing to sell out, very street smart, could care less about any affiliation to any worthless civil rights organization, and most are not as willing to blindly follow anyone's agenda without questioning the motive of the agenda.

    Representing the abused civil attorneys, and the district attorney of the City of Los Angeles have demanded access to all court files concerning any claim for police misconduct within the Los Angeles Police Department, and the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department.

    The citizens of the City of Los Angeles demand accountability, because the taxpayers foot the bill for civil claims for damages for the atrocities of a government seriously gone awry.

    Civil lawsuit for damages, has prompted the people of the City of Los Angeles, outside legal investigators, and our new Los Angeles Police Chief whose primary purpose for being hired is to address serious "inequities", to clean up the Los Angeles Police Department.

    Watchfulness, and the demand for accountability, on the part of the general public is the best tool to keep agents and officials of government in check.

    Sincerely,

    Michael Lofton

    [This message was edited by Lofton on October 27, 2002 at 10:12 PM.]
    what do you do when you are out with your wife and 5 thugs want to rape her? defend her and save yourselves from life long trauma or tell her to enjoy it......there are plenty of law-abiding citizens who shouldn't be subject to the criminal abuse of others...plain and simple....and criminals will get guns regardless....some of you speak from the premise that the guns they use are registered and easy to track down.....
    about now. If an anti-handgun law were passed today. Tomorrow - the crooks would still have their guns. But what about when your children or grandchildren are adults? Don't you think that police interdiction to remove guns could be at all effective in, say, a generations time? Should we just give up on preventing criminals from having guns now then?

    Onward and Upward!
    MBM,

    i would love a society that you speak of....when i was in Japan in 88, there were no guns anywhere...the police did not even carry them......but in the USA...which has the tendencies of a third world country...you never know when you might have to protect yourself.........a gun can serve as a deterrent....that is why the crime is so low in areas where gun possession is allowed....people who do not have guns are protected by the perception that everyone has one.....and based on tulsa and the heinious past of the kkk and others running in and snatching blacks from their homes.....some blacks in rural areas ain't hearing ya bro...they are not giving up theirs.......the history their people endured is too engrained in them.......peace
    Conrad...

    In general, I agree, most criminals make stupid mistakes. Personally, I am under the impression that the true masterminds of crime are of a higher intelligence and do not get caught, thus not generally known whatsoever and cannot be rated with the average criminal.

    This point of view is probably from my being an avid fan of high tech crime/spy/conspiracy movies/tv. Good thing the real world is not like that... or is it?

    La Femme Nkechi
    quote:
    Be the change in the world you want to see
    - Think about the effects even your smallest actions have on the world. You are often a part of the problem. Stop pointing fingers, accept responsibility and be a part of the solution. Create your higher self!

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