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quote:
Your point highlights the reason I said before that regarding SEPARATION and BLACK RESPONSIBILITY that indeed BOTH of these need to be done...and debating what's doing the most harm to blacks between WHITE racism and our own SELF inflicted damage is like debating which blade cuts the paper on a pair of scissors. They BOTH work together and that's the reason white racism AND our own self inflicted damage is so potent because they work TOGETHER to keep us back... Consequently, the reason we are held back is because we won't work TOGETHER to deal with it. We must be placed in a situation whereby we can EXCLUSIVELY deal with BLACK ISSUES without those efforts always being mitigated and disrupted by us also having to contend with a white power structure.

As you mentioned even if a Black man decides to play by the rules and do everything right as long as he is subject to a racist power structure and CRIMINAL justice system he is still at risk....and ultimately his Black family and by extension the larger Black community suffers.


When I think of thriving black communities in the past, I see your point.

because every time a black community did well on it's own, white folk came and destroyed it.

Given our (blk folk) present situation and the negative mind-set of so many of us, I'm interested in 'any' positive approach toward unity & the betterment of our people.
Momentum instead of praying for the untimely demise of this thread... why don't you instead take that time while you're down on your knees to pray for an end of the CONDITIONS effecting Blacks that this thread is addressing? I've already told you once that you need to make like your name and just keep it moving. If you are not going to add anything of substance here besides riding Romulus' coat tails down a rat hole to nowhere.

If you have a problem with what I'm saying then OUT WITH IT....BE A MAN....WHAT'S HOLDING YOU BACK?... DO TELL..what is it that you DISAGREE with...why all the HIDING, CRYING and PRAYING?...I'm right here so let's discuss it...Otherwise if you cannot garner the testicular fortitude to MAN UP then I suggest once again that you STFU.

I didn't start this thread for accolades... although I do appreciate all the POSITIVE feedback I've received both public and private from people thanking me for touching on this subject. I do this only to shed light on a SERIOUS issue effecting the Black community that has been swept under the rug for far too long...people WANT and NEED to hear about things like this so after all that positive support, with well over a HUNDRED comments and THOUSANDS of hits I think it's quite clear that nobody gives a GOT DAMN whether or not you like this thread or it's subject matter so just BYPASS it from now on... trust me you WON'T be missed...

For those who do care about Black issues.... Actually, in Momentum's attempt to bring negativity to this thread he has unwittingly given me the perfect segue into my next issue effecting the Black community which is the "no snitching" mentality and the way Black communities protect it's criminal element.... similar to how he tried to aid and abet Romulus and his lunacy in this thread.

Now there are many reasons for the inverted morality that is running rampant throughout far too many Black communities. Some say many of our current dysfunctions in this country were set in motion by the Brutal breaking in process that we experienced over nearly 400 years... One of the best analogies I've seen was this example as follows....

"Black America's history goes a long way toward "explaining" black Americans of today. In 1619, 380 years ago, Slavery began in what would become the United States of America. For 246 of those 380 years, black Americans lived in Slavery. 103 years consisted of the Jim Crow era. And it has been only the last 30 years that black Americans have lived the "Equal Opportunity era." Broken down by percentages, black Americans have spent 65% of their American tour in Slavery, 27% subjected to Jim Crow racism, and 8% playing on a level playing field.

Based on these percentages, if black America's history were personified as an individual twenty-three year old black man, it would be comparable to him having spent the first fifteen years of his life continuously being physically, mentally, and sexually abused. For the next six years, until the age of twenty-one, he would have been unloved and unsupported as he moved in and out of foster homes and halfway houses. In his twenty-second and twenty-third years, he would be on his own. He would have very little education and few marketable skills. However, his greatest problem would be the tragic, trauma-filled life he had led. Without a great deal of understanding and meaningful counseling, his life would be difficult, if not impossible, to repair."


Now using this analogy that 23 y.o. black man would have a very skewed and twisted set of values and morals many of which would be harmful to him. The solution to deal with such a Black man and by extention the larger Black community is for him to not only take responsibility for all his current actions moving forward in spite of his past trauma, but he should be given the proper RESOURCES and placed in the proper ENVIRONMENT for him to do so. You can't have one without the other you will never have a viable and fully uplifted Black community in this country until you deal with not just the "Alligators" but DRAIN THE SWAMP as JWC would say...I disagree with him on his limited view of reparations but on the concept of dealing with the "SWAMP" that Blacks are in I couldn't agree more.

The fact of the matter is there is no solution to the Black problem if it's addressed from a integrationist POV the only way to TRULY deal with Black issues is for Blacks to be separated to DEAL WITH BLACK ISSUES. Unfortunately, though the time for Blacks to come together on their own is fading fast and now CONDITIONS are going to have to dictate. Blacks who really care about the future of our race are going to have to STAND UP and unite against the WORSE elements among our OWN and deal with them FIRST then we can unite as people to deal with our EXTERNAL challanges.

This will happen whether we are ready or not because when a communities values degenerate to the point that they actually become vanguards and protectors of it's criminal element the stage then is set for a CATACLYSMIC shift. Since this is an unnatural phenomenon and at some point a critical mass has to be reached and it will be reached once the black community decides it's tired of harboring criminals and seeing it's children die in the streets as a result of it.....which we are going to see a lot more of as events in this country unfold things will get much worse before they get better.

I've actually heard blacks refer to the "no snitching movement" as a "code of ethics" this speaks volumes about the "values" or lack there of which is at the core of whats keeping blacks held back socio-economically and threatens to make them a permanent underclass in this country. The time has come for Blacks to start embracing a new "code of ethic's" just as we are witnessing the degeneration, corruption and fall of this white dominated power strucure all around us, We can take this opportunity to LEARN from it and BUILD our own structures upon it's ashes....otherwise we will perish with it.
Listen little boy, LieDcryptor or whatever, you don't tell me a damn thing. That is where you get off the wrong foot, right there. I do as I please and when I please. Who in the hell are you? I'm not stopping you from spewing that juvenile drivel you think is so profound. LOL 20

I could add plenty to this thread but I will not throw pearls to swine.
If you look back this topic has been discussed many times. It is your arrogance and personal attacks on those who do not agree with you is why this thread needs to die!!! It's you and your, "I am godlike" attitude. I bet you are some little sawed off, piss-ant that can't get laid only if you paid type. So you come to this site to be THE MAN that you will never be. You invite drama with this warped sense of yourself, I am the great leader, I have the ALL the answers, listen to me and I will bless you with my wisdom, so speaketh the OVERLORD. 20

It is your inflated and conceited opinion of yourself that keeps you stuck on stupid and will always invite drama. If you have a point to make, keep the OVERLORD theatrics out and maybe you can get around to making a point.

Dude, stop reading the comic books!
quote:
Originally posted by Romulus Burnett:
quote:
As I mentioned in the other thread this issue is bigger than myself or some fool's attempt to try and misrepresent the TRUE state of the Black condition.


So you run like a girl to post another thread, hoping for an audience of cheerleaders, because you're making no headway in the 'Mutts like me' shows Obama's racial comfort' thread. Don't try to act like you're all of a sudden brand new, self-righteous, philanthropic, and innocent by creating a new thread. Stop hiding behind the lies. If this topic were truly bigger than you--if you were honestly interested in intelligent discussion, then what's your reason for acting the fool in the 'Mutts like me' shows Obama's racial comfort' thread? Let's annex the purpose for your creating this new thread and see where it all began--four pages of foolishness:

http://africanamerica.org/eve/...213/m/3821037184/p/7

Starting this new thread is all about your own selfish sense of redemption after being made a fool of in the previous thread. Everybody and their mama knows blacks have a long way to go. I've already stated time and time again the 400 year head start whites have had over blacks in addition to the 143 years after slavery blacks have faught for civil rights. Add to the fact that we're also only 12% of the population and it's easy to see why many blacks are behind and still struggling.

BUT to ignore the progress blacks have made, to ignore the successes of a growing population of educated blacks and pretend like no progress has been made at all by focusing only on the bottom ten percent of lowerclass blacks is foolish. To ignore the resentfulness and hostility one group of blacks, the lower class, has for another group of blacks, the middle to upper middle class, which breeds more anti-intellectualism and complacency, is foolish. To ignore the fact that many blacks have admittedly held themselves back despite the opportunities given them is foolish. There has always been a population of blacks that will destroy their own neighborhoods no matter how much you help them. Even Dr. Anderson alluded to the fact:

".....do something we've never been allowed to do or never been bright enough to do in some senses."


Even when you try to build something in a 'black neighborhood', hoodrats destroy their surroundings. Dr. Anderson preaches a good sermon but the vast majority of what he says I've already talked about on this discussion board and others for years. Dr. Anderson has said nothing any different than what Bill Cosby has said--he's just more expansive, clear and concise about institutional and systematic racism. The only difference is Bill Cosby tried to instill a since of ownership of our shortcomings, whereas, Dr. Anderson places all the blame on whites. Obviously, institutional and systematic racism has a large role to play in the predicament many blacks are in today but when and where do black people begin to take ownership and empower themselves?

While it may be true that everyone isn't or doesn't have to be university material, black people can STILL go to community colleges and trade schools where they can major in a profession where they can many times make just as much money, if not more, than blacks that have graduated from four year institutions. But you know what the problem is? Jealousy and enviousness. the bottom line is this: WHAT KIND OF SOLLUTIONS DID DR. ANDERSON OFFER THE AUDIENCE HE WAS PREACHING TO? I watched all six YouTube videos. Dr. Anderson didn't offer offer one single solution in six YouTube videos. In fact, all he did was paint a glim picture of gloom and doom for black people. All I heard was how hispanics are planning on knocking us black down another notch, which is true--you can see it all around. But that doesn't detract away from the fact that Dr. Anderson still offered no solutions in those six videos.

Dr. Anderson didn't offer any solutions because he knows if he starts preaching about education and empowerment many black people are going to tune him out.

Negroes keep talking about saving black communities but you have to think seriously for a moment. Who the hell wants to live in houses white people left behind eons ago? We have to build our own communities and in order to do so we have to expand, move out from those decrepid, formerly white homes and establish homes, neighborhoods, for our own. But you listen to people like Dr. Anderson and he will make it sound like anyone who is black that seeks to live in better homes is running away and "acting white." There is no group of black people that has been successful if that group was made of unprepaired individuals. I don't give a damn how much you preach about saving 'the black community'. Dr. Anderson shed those fake ass tears about the blacks in the nineth ward district after Hurricane Katrina like they were some helpless victims. But what he either didn't want to mention or didn't know was that many of those black people in the nineth ward grew up running away from education and opportunity. Many of those negroes WANTED To hustle each other or the system, which is why many of them were in the predicament they were in BEFORE Katrina hit, and which was why they were left to be VULNERABLE during and after Katrina. Remember the 504 boys? Remember Master P? Yeah, that's what the nineth ward district is all about. EMBRACING POVERTY. Master P and the 504 boys pimped their own community and got the fuck out as soon as they made enough cash to sustain themselves. And they wuz supposed to be DOWN wit da HOOD. Ya HURD meh? Fucking nonsense.

Tell me how you can reverse 400 years of slavery and another 143 years of institutional and systematic racism after the ending of slavery in less than a fraction of the time? In six YouTube videos I didn't hear one damn solution from Dr. Anderson except this:

"We gotta get in our churches and find out how we can own some things!!"

You sure as hell can't save the black community or empower blacks by re-creating, re-hashing the SAME statistics that keep pointing to what black people don't have and what they can't achieve. See--that's the distinct problem I have with people that keep saying "BLACK PEOPLE AIN'T GOT NOTHING" but no one is stepping up to the plate and offering any kind of comprehensive solutions. You can be a catalyst for fear all you want by quoting facts and figures that point to what black people don't have. I want to hear about how black people can empower themselves. I tired of hearing that one 'truth' about black people not having anything. I want to hear the whole truth about what's really happening to black people. Forget about the disparities between whites and blacks. There is a disparity growing between the black middle class and lower class. that's what the hell you need to be focused on. Instead of preaching about how it's wrong to want to be successful black people need to be preaching about how they can empower themselves and each other through education. Destroy this anti-intellectualism bullshit and encourage blacks to educate themselves. That has always been our BEST weapon against institutional and systematic racism--period.


If you can't see the great points in this, then it is impossible to have an honest and intelligent discussion on the REAL ECONOMIC STATE OF BLACK AMERICA. The blame game is dead and it does not matter anyway because it is POWERLESS. No one is denying our history in America but to say we have made no progress since the Civil War is FALSE and IGNORANT. And it begs the question why would one deliberately frame the African American community in such a pitiful state? It's a lie, period.

So I share the same frustration as Romulus but not as loudly as he but appreciate his anger.

It seems to me the people who claim to LOVE black people so much are sometimes the first ones to turn on them when they do not agree on a political and social ideological level.

That is the problem when people TOTALLY INVEST to a SET OF VIEWS ETCHED IN STONE. It is IMPOSSIBLE to be DYNAMIC enough in THOUGHT to see the TRUTH.
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quote:
Originally posted by Momentum:
Listen little boy, LieDcryptor or whatever, you don't tell me a damn thing. That is where you get off the wrong foot, right there. I do as I please and when I please. Who in the hell are you? I'm not stopping you from spewing that juvenile drivel you think is so profound. LOL 20


I got your "boy" alright Momentum and if you were not in this thread dipping your unwanted and unneeeded hater laced commentary I wouldn't have to tell you anything. You aren't fooling anybody clearly you have nothing of importance to say you're just here to get attention the only way you know how. If you really do have something important to say do so and make me look bad by using YOUR OWN "profound" words of wisdom. You can't do that so all you can do is talk about how conceited you think I am....Classic.



quote:
Originally posted by Momentum:
I could add plenty to this thread but I will not throw pearls to swine.


Looks to me like you are the one acting like he has the "key to the universe" but you are withholding such "pearls" because thou feels thyself to be above this thread...although you keep managing to drag your sorry pontificating butt in here...again if you have something of VALUE to say PUT UP or STFU...

quote:
Originally posted by Momentum:
If you look back this topic has been discussed many times. It is your arrogance and personal attacks on those who do not agree with you is why this thread needs to die!!! It's you and your, "I am godlike" attitude. I bet you are some little sawed off, piss-ant that can't get laid only if you paid type. So you come to this site to be THE MAN that you will never be. You invite drama with this warped sense of yourself, I am the great leader, I have the ALL the answers, listen to me and I will bless you with my wisdom, so speaketh the OVERLORD. 20


Only an idiot believes that since a topic has been discussed "many times" which is STILL plaguing the Black community that we should not be talking about it like the condition of the Black race is tantamount to an out of season sweater that must be left in the closet. The fact the you also refer to whether or not someone can get "laid" (as if that's an achievement nowadays) shows where your "values" are you're just some knuckle head still running around trying to prove his manhood by how many women he can bed. I left that phase when I was in my late teens early twenties now I'm about the business of helping to build strong Black families... you really do need to GROW UP kid.

quote:
Originally posted by Momentum:
It is your inflated and conceited opinion of yourself that keeps you stuck on stupid and will always invite drama. If you have a point to make, keep the OVERLORD theatrics out and maybe you can get around to making a point.

Dude, stop reading the comic books!


Again if you have such a problem with this thread or my "conceited" and "inflated" opinion of myself AVOID IT I don't follow behind you when you make a quality thread that people actually want to read (whenever the last time that was) coming into it trying to give some two bit psycho-analysis on you like I know you or even give a damn about you...So why are you trying to do that here Momentum? apparently you are thinking more of me then what you claim I think of myself otherwise you wouldn't be in here focusing on me so much instead of the TOPIC.... However, I will just ignore you going forward since I've already given you more of my time and attention than you deserve
quote:
Originally posted by LieDecrypter:
quote:
Originally posted by Momentum:
Listen little boy, LieDcryptor or whatever, you don't tell me a damn thing. That is where you get off the wrong foot, right there. I do as I please and when I please. Who in the hell are you? I'm not stopping you from spewing that juvenile drivel you think is so profound. LOL 20


I got your "boy" alright Momentum and if you were not in this thread dipping your unwanted and unneeeded hater laced commentary I wouldn't have to tell you anything. You aren't fooling anybody clearly you have nothing of importance to say you're just here to get attention the only way you know how. If you really do have something important to say do so and make me look bad by using YOUR OWN "profound" words of wisdom. You can't do that so all you can do is talk about how conceited you think I am....Classic.



quote:
Originally posted by Momentum:
I could add plenty to this thread but I will not throw pearls to swine.


Looks to me like you are the one acting like he has the "key to the universe" but you are withholding such "pearls" because thou feels thyself to be above this thread...although you keep managing to drag your sorry pontificating butt in here...again if you have something of VALUE to say PUT UP or STFU...

quote:
Originally posted by Momentum:
If you look back this topic has been discussed many times. It is your arrogance and personal attacks on those who do not agree with you is why this thread needs to die!!! It's you and your, "I am godlike" attitude. I bet you are some little sawed off, piss-ant that can't get laid only if you paid type. So you come to this site to be THE MAN that you will never be. You invite drama with this warped sense of yourself, I am the great leader, I have the ALL the answers, listen to me and I will bless you with my wisdom, so speaketh the OVERLORD. 20


Only an idiot believes that since a topic has been discussed "many times" which is STILL plaguing the Black community that we should not be talking about it like the condition of the Black race is tantamount to an out of season sweater that must be left in the closet. The fact the you also refer to whether or not someone can get "laid" (as if that's an achievement nowadays) shows where your "values" are you're just some knuckle head still running around trying to prove his manhood by how many women he can bed. I left that phase when I was in my late teens early twenties now I'm about the business of helping to build strong Black families... you really do need to GROW UP kid.

quote:
Originally posted by Momentum:
It is your inflated and conceited opinion of yourself that keeps you stuck on stupid and will always invite drama. If you have a point to make, keep the OVERLORD theatrics out and maybe you can get around to making a point.

Dude, stop reading the comic books!


Again if you have such a problem with this thread or my "conceited" and "inflated" opinion of myself AVOID IT I don't follow behind you when you make a quality thread that people actually want to read (whenever the last time that was) coming into it trying to give some two bit psycho-analysis on you like I know you or even give a damn about you...So why are you trying to do that here Momentum? apparently you are thinking more of me then what you claim I think of myself otherwise you wouldn't be in here focusing on me so much instead of the TOPIC.... However, I will just ignore you going forward since I've already given you more of my time and attention than you deserve


Then simply put me on IGNORE... bye tfro
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
quote:
eply

what is the TRUTH Momentum?


Truth is reality, accuracy, genuineness, legitimacy.

ZAKAR, I guess your view of Truth ON THIS ISSUE is more SUBJECTIVE because you believe BLACK PEOPLE AINT GOT NOTHING and SINCE THE CIVIL WAR.

Therefore truth depends of the sum of your life experience and emotional makeup. For many truth is according to ones emotions, prejudices, hates and passions but is that really TRUTH? It can be it depends if the issue is personal or broad in scope.

The problem comes in when people try to apply the SUBJECTIVE application of truth to a broad or world set of circumstances, in such applications MOST times it does not work.

OBJECTIVE TRUTH is not predicated on ones emotions or life’s experiences but its realization stands on its own and it is the same for every person who sees it.

You see that is really the crux of most arguments people observing life and history from a subjective angle and those who view them objectively. In fact we all do both, it is part of the human struggle.

To say BLACK PEOPLE AINT GOT NOTHING is SUBJECTIVE not OBJECTIVE.
I read over this entire thread over a period of time. My interest in the topic LieDecryptor brought up caused me to read & research throughly Dr. Anderson, his organization the Harvest Institute and purchase his book "PowerNomics". I'm on the last couple of chapters of the book and if we would take the time out to just realistically read what he has to say and offer about the state of black america economically & things we can do to ethno-aggregate again we would all truly have at least ONE area that we are in alignment with Dr. Anderson on. Reading his book, there are a couple of things that I agree with. First his stance on the schools in majority black urban areas. Second capturing markets that are unique to our culture. Lie Decryptor, I will definitely be looking forward to subsequent posts on this topic. Believe it or not some people are geninuely interested in empowering our people. If you private message me, I'll fill you in on some of the orgs that are working towards this goal. The ones that I know of anyway. Great Topic. One suggestion, you may want to ditch this hijacked thread and start a new focused thread. Love you for doing this Bro! hug
quote:
Originally posted by Cocoa Starr:
I read over this entire thread over a period of time. My interest in the topic LieDecryptor brought up caused me to read & research throughly Dr. Anderson, his organization the Harvest Institute and purchase his book "PowerNomics". I'm on the last couple of chapters of the book and if we would take the time out to just realistically read what he has to say and offer about the state of black america economically & things we can do to ethno-aggregate again we would all truly have at least ONE area that we are in alignment with Dr. Anderson on. Reading his book, there are a couple of things that I agree with. First his stance on the schools in majority black urban areas. Second capturing markets that are unique to our culture. Lie Decryptor, I will definitely be looking forward to subsequent posts on this topic. Believe it or not some people are geninuely interested in empowering our people. If you private message me, I'll fill you in on some of the orgs that are working towards this goal. The ones that I know of anyway. Great Topic. One suggestion, you may want to ditch this hijacked thread and start a new focused thread. Love you for doing this Bro! hug


thanks for the input on Dr. Anderson's book, Cocoa Starr, I plan to purchase it, myself.

If LieDecrypter starts another thread the haters will only hijack THAT thread as well.

At this point, I'm going to start reporting their posts as disruptive (not that THAT will change anything) but I'll give it a try anyway.

Dear Readers,

If you too are interested in this discussion, please sign up or sign in. . .if only to REPORT the offending members.

If you don't stand for 'something' you stand for nothing (or however the saying goes). Wink
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by Cocoa Starr:
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by Afro Saxon:

Where have you proven that Black own more of America's wealth than they did in the 19th century?



You know, ive heard this before but the full impact just hit me recently when Zakar (i believe added some numbers). in the 1800's there were 288K free blacks who were responsible for 1/2 percent of wealth

and currently there are 40 million free blacks and our percentage of wealth relative to the larger population hasn't changed?

oh my! Eek


Good point NS. I'd also like to point out that our population has been limited to a constant 12% of the total population as well. Another trend showing that we are meant to be systematically kept down.



If the 1/2 of 1% wealth ration remains true in this day and age, what does this say about the effectiveness of affirmative action and diversity plans in an era where we have more black doctors, lawyers, teachers, politicians,

but the relative wealth remains the same percentage as in slavery days?

I know that the stripping of land ownership in the 20th century, and now home ownership in the 21st century is central to this stagnation, but i'm wondering is there a way for african americans to go around the barriers and actually accumulate some wealth? where wealth = power to make demands and negotiate new relationships internationally?

(if that makes sense)


I've noted some of the points here, but I've largely avoided this thread because of all the dumb backbiting. But I do want to try to address this point, about our percentage of the wealth staying constant since the Civil War.

Let's assume it's true. What we know is that the overall disparity between the richest and poorest Americans is through the stratosphere right now. I don't remember the stats, but it's something on the order of the top 1% of Americans owning 20% of the wealth or something like that. What I do know is that the richest Americans today are WAAYYYY richer than everyone else. So the scale is totally different today than back then.

In the Civil War, blacks may have wielded 1/2 of 1% of the nation's wealth. But I'm sure that the richest 1% of Americans didn't take up as much of the total wealth as they do now. There just wasn't that much wealth available for that to have happened.

If there were a statistic that showed what the MEDIAN black person had vs. the MEDIAN white person, both in 1870 and today, I suspect strongly that the gap probably has narrowed considerably between them. There's no way the 2008 number would be the same, or anywhere near the same, as the 1870 number if you're going by the median instead of the total, because the total would have to include the most mega-wealthy Americans. That group's presence -- especially because surely they're almost all white -- skews the numbers drastically, especially because there was nothing like that in 1870.

So the percentage of the total wealth, not changing since 1870, really doesn't tell us anything about our progress, except that we're not equal yet, which we already knew.

Having said that, though, there's no doubt that even if it has narrowed, we have on average way less wealth than we should have, and way less than we COULD have. So I wouldn't disparage anybody -- from Dr. Anderson to Umbrarchist -- if they're out there trying to raise awareness.
quote:
Truth is reality, accuracy, genuineness, legitimacy.

ZAKAR, I guess your view of Truth ON THIS ISSUE is more SUBJECTIVE because you believe BLACK PEOPLE AINT GOT NOTHING and SINCE THE CIVIL WAR.

Therefore truth depends of the sum of your life experience and emotional makeup. For many truth is according to ones emotions, prejudices, hates and passions but is that really TRUTH? It can be it depends if the issue is personal or broad in scope.

The problem comes in when people try to apply the SUBJECTIVE application of truth to a broad or world set of circumstances, in such applications MOST times it does not work.

OBJECTIVE TRUTH is not predicated on ones emotions or life’s experiences but its realization stands on its own and it is the same for every person who sees it.

You see that is really the crux of most arguments people observing life and history from a subjective angle and those who view them objectively. In fact we all do both, it is part of the human struggle.

To say BLACK PEOPLE AINT GOT NOTHING is SUBJECTIVE not OBJECTIVE.

So again What is the truth??? Since you believe my truth is subjective and not really the truth. What is your real truth? Your Objective truth??
quote:
I've noted some of the points here, but I've largely avoided this thread because of all the dumb backbiting. But I do want to try to address this point, about our percentage of the wealth staying constant since the Civil War.

Let's assume it's true. What we know is that the overall disparity between the richest and poorest Americans is through the stratosphere right now. I don't remember the stats, but it's something on the order of the top 1% of Americans owning 20% of the wealth or something like that. What I do know is that the richest Americans today are WAAYYYY richer than everyone else. So the scale is totally different today than back then.

In the Civil War, blacks may have wielded 1/2 of 1% of the nation's wealth. But I'm sure that the richest 1% of Americans didn't take up as much of the total wealth as they do now. There just wasn't that much wealth available for that to have happened.

If there were a statistic that showed what the MEDIAN black person had vs. the MEDIAN white person, both in 1870 and today, I suspect strongly that the gap probably has narrowed considerably between them. There's no way the 2008 number would be the same, or anywhere near the same, as the 1870 number if you're going by the median instead of the total, because the total would have to include the most mega-wealthy Americans. That group's presence -- especially because surely they're almost all white -- skews the numbers drastically, especially because there was nothing like that in 1870.

So the percentage of the total wealth, not changing since 1870, really doesn't tell us anything about our progress, except that we're not equal yet, which we already knew.

Having said that, though, there's no doubt that even if it has narrowed, we have on average way less wealth than we should have, and way less than we COULD have. So I wouldn't disparage anybody -- from Dr. Anderson to Umbrarchist -- if they're out there trying to raise awareness.

So how would you measure collective Wealth in 2008?
quote:
Originally posted by Momentum:
quote:
Originally posted by Fabulous:
@Momentum

YOU are a hypocrite and a hater.


OK cool, you are entitled to your opinion.

But it is OK for those you like to call others out and call them names and disrespect them or whatever, it seems to me the same applies to you Miss Fab. You are also a hypocrite and a hater. cool


Of course I'm entitled to my opinion & you yours, there's no question about that, however, the DIFFERENCE here is. . .I'm not disrupting a thread YOU are interested in. . .

I'm not going around initiating attacks on others. . .

I asked both you & romulous 'nicely' to stop spoiling things for others (on this thread) but you ignored me.

Had you asked ME nicely to cool it, out of respect, I would've left it alone unless a person was DIRECTLY insulting me.

do you see the difference, mr. intelligent?

YOU have no regard or respect for others who are trying to have a discussion in this thread and based on your own words on the "Personal Disrespect' thread, THAT makes you a hypocrite.

And yes, I'm a hater. . .I HATE 'haters'. Wink
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
quote:
I've noted some of the points here, but I've largely avoided this thread because of all the dumb backbiting. But I do want to try to address this point, about our percentage of the wealth staying constant since the Civil War.

Let's assume it's true. What we know is that the overall disparity between the richest and poorest Americans is through the stratosphere right now. I don't remember the stats, but it's something on the order of the top 1% of Americans owning 20% of the wealth or something like that. What I do know is that the richest Americans today are WAAYYYY richer than everyone else. So the scale is totally different today than back then.

In the Civil War, blacks may have wielded 1/2 of 1% of the nation's wealth. But I'm sure that the richest 1% of Americans didn't take up as much of the total wealth as they do now. There just wasn't that much wealth available for that to have happened.

If there were a statistic that showed what the MEDIAN black person had vs. the MEDIAN white person, both in 1870 and today, I suspect strongly that the gap probably has narrowed considerably between them. There's no way the 2008 number would be the same, or anywhere near the same, as the 1870 number if you're going by the median instead of the total, because the total would have to include the most mega-wealthy Americans. That group's presence -- especially because surely they're almost all white -- skews the numbers drastically, especially because there was nothing like that in 1870.

So the percentage of the total wealth, not changing since 1870, really doesn't tell us anything about our progress, except that we're not equal yet, which we already knew.

Having said that, though, there's no doubt that even if it has narrowed, we have on average way less wealth than we should have, and way less than we COULD have. So I wouldn't disparage anybody -- from Dr. Anderson to Umbrarchist -- if they're out there trying to raise awareness.

So how would you measure collective Wealth in 2008?
I don't know what you mean?
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
quote:
Truth is reality, accuracy, genuineness, legitimacy.

ZAKAR, I guess your view of Truth ON THIS ISSUE is more SUBJECTIVE because you believe BLACK PEOPLE AINT GOT NOTHING and SINCE THE CIVIL WAR.

Therefore truth depends of the sum of your life experience and emotional makeup. For many truth is according to ones emotions, prejudices, hates and passions but is that really TRUTH? It can be it depends if the issue is personal or broad in scope.

The problem comes in when people try to apply the SUBJECTIVE application of truth to a broad or world set of circumstances, in such applications MOST times it does not work.

OBJECTIVE TRUTH is not predicated on ones emotions or life’s experiences but its realization stands on its own and it is the same for every person who sees it.

You see that is really the crux of most arguments people observing life and history from a subjective angle and those who view them objectively. In fact we all do both, it is part of the human struggle.

To say BLACK PEOPLE AINT GOT NOTHING is SUBJECTIVE not OBJECTIVE.

So again What is the truth??? Since you believe my truth is subjective and not really the truth. What is your real truth? Your Objective truth??


The truth is no one is stopping us from building wealth, it is each individual’s habits, values and choices that mostly dictate ones wealth and lifestyle.

But of course there are plenty of good people who try to do the right thing that still end up in misery, we live in a chaotic world and bad things happen to good people. Black people are good people and bad things happened to us for hundreds of years in America, therefore many of us are flawed from our history of 400 years of slavery and systematic racism. But we have come a long way from the civil rights era and have taken advantage of the freedoms we have died and worked for.

I take offense to those who want to keep us in a psychological state of perpetual failure, is that the truth of black people to you Zakar? We have made serious gains since the Civil War, even when you compare our progress with whites, which is your argument but we as a people are nowhere near the pitiful state we were in after the Civil War. It would take a lot of rationalizing and manipulation of history to say otherwise.
quote:
Originally posted by Fabulous:
quote:
Originally posted by Momentum:
quote:
Originally posted by Fabulous:
@Momentum

YOU are a hypocrite and a hater.


OK cool, you are entitled to your opinion.

But it is OK for those you like to call others out and call them names and disrespect them or whatever, it seems to me the same applies to you Miss Fab. You are also a hypocrite and a hater. cool


Of course I'm entitled to my opinion & you yours, there's no question about that, however, the DIFFERENCE here is. . .I'm not disrupting a thread YOU are interested in. . .

I'm not going around initiating attacks on others. . .

I asked both you & romulous 'nicely' to stop spoiling things for others (on this thread) but you ignored me.

Had you asked ME nicely to cool it, out of respect, I would've left it alone unless a person was DIRECTLY insulting me.

do you see the difference, mr. intelligent?

YOU have no regard or respect for others who are trying to have a discussion in this thread and based on your own words on the "Personal Disrespect' thread, THAT makes you a hypocrite.

And yes, I'm a hater. . .I HATE 'haters'. Wink


Fab, here is a pat on the ahz and a Super Hero Sista costume I would rather be in a foxhole with you than without you. We'll just be arguing in the foxhole because I'm gonna hate when it hits me. tfro
quote:
Fab, here is a pat on the ahz and a Super Hero Sista costume I would rather be in a foxhole with you than without you. We just be arguing in the foxhole because I'm gonna hate when it hits me.


Ok. this made me chuckle. lol

btw. . .my superhero sista costume is in the cleaners at the moment.

but when I get it back, there ain't no foxhole big enough. tfro
LOL OK cool, I'll try to check myself when that hate hits me, I don't like being put in a Half Nelson by you, I do value your views Miss Fab and among many others on this board.

Sometime folks need to fall out to get where we need to go. I think Rowe had a point about how men communicate in the other Personal Respect Thread I think, which is why I read AA.org almost every day, good points good peeps.
Cocoa Starr I get what you and Fab are saying in regards to starting another thread and I agree with both points that another one should be started and it would also still be at risk of being disrupted. I may still create a new thread on this subject because even though good points are being made here still the reader should not have to sift through all the disparaging pictures and comments to see it.

So I see where you are coming from on that Cocoa and I appreciate your insight from the perspective of a reader of this thread (something that I may not be able to see from my P.O.V since I'm so involved in the content of the thread) so thanks again for that fresh perspective it has been noted...If you want to give me that info you mentioned through private message that would be fine.

Anyway, as I said another thread will indeed be started shortly on this subject matter just to give this VERY important topic a fresh start hopefully without all the distractions and detractors that took place in this one.

However, as I mentioned if someone offers a REAL and COGENT critique of anything I'm saying I would respond in kind...So it's only fair when such a disagreement is raised that it's addressed properly as follows....

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:

I've noted some of the points here, but I've largely avoided this thread because of all the dumb backbiting. But I do want to try to address this point, about our percentage of the wealth staying constant since the Civil War.

Let's assume it's true. What we know is that the overall disparity between the richest and poorest Americans is through the stratosphere right now. I don't remember the stats, but it's something on the order of the top 1% of Americans owning 20% of the wealth or something like that. What I do know is that the richest Americans today are WAAYYYY richer than everyone else. So the scale is totally different today than back then.

In the Civil War, blacks may have wielded 1/2 of 1% of the nation's wealth. But I'm sure that the richest 1% of Americans didn't take up as much of the total wealth as they do now. There just wasn't that much wealth available for that to have happened.

If there were a statistic that showed what the MEDIAN black person had vs. the MEDIAN white person, both in 1870 and today, I suspect strongly that the gap probably has narrowed considerably between them. There's no way the 2008 number would be the same, or anywhere near the same, as the 1870 number if you're going by the median instead of the total, because the total would have to include the most mega-wealthy Americans. That group's presence -- especially because surely they're almost all white -- skews the numbers drastically, especially because there was nothing like that in 1870.

So the percentage of the total wealth, not changing since 1870, really doesn't tell us anything about our progress, except that we're not equal yet, which we already knew.

Having said that, though, there's no doubt that even if it has narrowed, we have on average way less wealth than we should have, and way less than we COULD have. So I wouldn't disparage anybody -- from Dr. Anderson to Umbrarchist -- if they're out there trying to raise awareness.



Actually, Vox the top 1% of Americans own more than just 20% of this nations wealth as of 2001 it was more than 33%...It's probably even higher now as this economic crisis has evaporated even more of the lower classes "wealth" proportionately than it has effected the top percentile. If you look on the first page of this thread you will see that I've already posted information showing the true wealth distribution in this country here it is again....

In the United States, wealth is highly concentrated in a relatively few hands. As of 2001, the top 1% of households (the upper class) owned 33.4% of all privately held wealth, and the next 19% (the managerial, professional, and small business stratum) had 51%, which means that just 20% of the people owned a remarkable 84%, leaving only 16% of the wealth for the bottom 80% (wage and salary workers). In terms of financial wealth, the top 1% of households had an even greater share: 39.7%. Table 1 and Figure 1 present further details drawn from the careful work of economist Edward N. Wolff at New York University (2004).

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whor...ca/power/wealth.html

I think the problem that many people are having with accepting the fact Black wealth in this country has not changed relatively since the 1800's is that people keep skewing the concept of total wealth and proportionate wealth case and point vox you stated that...

"In the Civil War, blacks may have wielded 1/2 of 1% of the nation's wealth. But I'm sure that the richest 1% of Americans didn't take up as much of the total wealth as they do now. There just wasn't that much wealth available for that to have happened."

Here is the problem in absolute terms the U.S. as a country is far more developed and "wealthy" (if you can still call it that after you account for the trillions of debt it's in but that's another issue) so of course the total wealth numbers that we are dealing with would be larger now than back then. Inflation has a lot to do with it also.... for example if you made $12,000 a year had $5000 in the bank in say 1950 when the average U.S. household income was just $4200 a year and bread was a nickle a loaf then you would be in the upper class.

Today however those same numbers would be considered paltry and nobody would consider 12k per year "upper class" in fact in total wealth terms those numbers are actually poverty level today due to inflation. So we cannot and must not speak in those terms to get an accurate picture of the Black condition.

The only way to accurately gauge Black growth is through and in proportionate terms. I used an example before to illustrate this point which Romulus never addressed I will use it again and maybe you will address it....

Any increase in Black "wealth" outside of being generated by true conduits such as companies, industries, infrastructures and other wealth building enterprises controlled solely by Blacks.... Should not be taken out of context since there will always be a huge percentage jump when you are starting from NOTHING....For example if you have zero dollars and I give you $10 that's a 100% increase wheres if you already have $100 and I give you the same $10 it's only a 10% increase. So every additional dollar that Blacks get is a higher percentage increase compared to other groups only because Blacks are starting from a LOWER base number. That does not and I repeat NOT mean that Blacks are growing in absolute terms the fact of the matter however is that at the end of the day you still only have $10 dollars compared to the other groups $110.

Now you can start doing the happy dance and celebrate the fact that you indeed have $10 dollars (I mean it is a lot better than zero after all) Or you can look much deeper into why is it that you only have $10 dollars when all your and your ancestors cumulative labor should have you with at least $100 and therefore seek ways to correct this criminal discrepancy....I choose to do the latter.
I hope my above post gives those who were reluctant to accept the statement about Black wealth not changing proportionately since the 1800's a different outlook. If not feel free to express why you still don't believe it...I'm not trying to put anyone on the spot I just want us to be clear on the facts.

That is the only way we can truly address our issues....first we must understand the nature and accept the gravity of the problem.

So Vox if I didn't answer your question let me know... or if anyone else would like to take umbrage with what I said please do so.

Otherwise, I will just proceed as if we are all in agreement on the point that Black group wealth in this country has not changed since the 1800's.
The truth is no one is stopping us from building wealth, it is each individual’s habits, values and choices that mostly dictate ones wealth and lifestyle.

So you take a more Individualistic Approach?

I take offense to those who want to keep us in a psychological state of perpetual failure, is that the truth of black people to you Zakar? We have made serious gains since the Civil War, even when you compare our progress with whites, which is your argument but we as a people are nowhere near the pitiful state we were in after the Civil War. It would take a lot of rationalizing and manipulation of history to say otherwise.

Well since you believe many blacks psychologically perpetuate failure, what would you suggest be done change this. If we as a Group have made such progress since the Civil War could you point out this progress? How about some concrete examples to show this is the case?

Vox says:I don't know what you mean?

What i mean is you say its not correct to guage black wealth as a group from the time right before the Civil War up until now. You stated that the overall wealth of America has changed since then and since a small group of White people control so much of the wealth it would be skewed to compare Black group Wealth to White Group Wealth. My question is how then do you measure Black collective Wealth in 2008??
quote:
Originally posted by Momentum:
LOL OK cool, I'll try to check myself when that hate hits me, I don't like being put in a Half Nelson by you, I do value your views Miss Fab and among many others on this board.

Sometime folks need to fall out to get where we need to go. I think Rowe had a point about how men communicate in the other Personal Respect Thread I think, which is why I read AA.org almost every day, good points good peeps
.


So sorry I am only now getting back to the board but thank you so much Momentum, my brother. . .

hug ((((((( TightSistaHug))))))) & kiss & flowers

Here's a song from me to you (to show my appreciation) because you made me think of family Wink

Jill Scott - Family reunion

Much love my brother tfro
quote:
Cocoa Starr I get what you and Fab are saying in regards to starting another thread and I agree with both points that another one should be started and it would also still be at risk of being disrupted. I may still create a new thread on this subject because even though good points are being made here still the reader should not have to sift through all the disparaging pictures and comments to see it.


tfro Excellent point LieDecrypter, and my apologies to you for contributing to the disparaging comments & pics.
quote:
Originally posted by LieDecrypter:
I hope my above post gives those who were reluctant to accept the statement about Black wealth not changing proportionately since the 1800's a different outlook. If not feel free to express why you still don't believe it...I'm not trying to put anyone on the spot I just want us to be clear on the facts.

That is the only way we can truly address our issues....first we must understand the nature and accept the gravity of the problem.

So Vox if I didn't answer your question let me know... or if anyone else would like to take umbrage with what I said please do so.

Otherwise, I will just proceed as if we are all in agreement on the point that Black group wealth in this country has not changed since the 1800's.


appl tfro appl

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