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I almost hate to add to this already clear issue.

Almost.

Without simple cynicism, there is nothing to be gained by engaging in discussion to 'educate' European-Americans, or European America. Both are 'consciously ignorant', as in invincibly ignorant.

We do not owe such an effort to either African America, or America herself.

That ignorance, of the European American, is a cultured, and treasured perspective that successfully resisted all efforts to effect change.

That 'promised land' is not that of the 'American Dream', and we are still waiting precisely because we keep asking.

When you have to ask the answer is ALWAYS 'No.'

Our 'promised land' is parity in our society.

And...the parity parameter in the American society is ancestral nationality.

Color can never be a parity standard in a society which constructed dominance on the basis of color.

PEACE

Jim Chester
Well, ART_GURL, with JWC weighing in as EVERYONE (other than me) *lol*... It would seem that, in all your questions, with all the answers you're "looking" for, with all the answers you've gotten... Well, it's clear that you're just not listening.

quote:
There is nothing to be gained by engaging in discussion to 'educate' European-Americans, or European America. Both are 'consciously ignorant', as in invincibly ignorant.

We do not owe such an effort to either African America, or America herself.

That ignorance, of the European American, is a cultured, and treasured perspective that successfully resisted all efforts to effect change.

That 'promised land' is not that of the 'American Dream', and we are still waiting precisely because we keep asking.

When [we] ask [for a meaningful Dialogue, for actual meaningful change, etc., etc., etc. and God-forbid, equality/parity] the answer is ALWAYS 'No.'
So, AG? Are you listening?

You have been given information, rather freely I might add, about "what is needed for equal rights, equal opportunities..." But somehow, because of some pre-set idea you know you have ("two sides")... you're just not listening - responsibly.

You can't pretend, claim or feign ignorance and once you get information that doesn't fit your pre-set notions reject it because you feel like that information doesn't give you THE START YOU WANT. A start you want for your own selfish purposes. Neither can you convince someone else that what's actually in your clear interest, for your clear benefit (alone), is also in their benefit.

A STRAIGHT LINE, AG. Why not the straight line?

This whole entire conversation highlights how you both would rather not think about White Privilege et al and how you're trying to guard or save Whites, even White Americans, from having to think about White Privilege.

Note: The only thing you "want white people to get out of the dialog" is not to have to focus, directly, on White Privilege and White Supremacy. You'd rather they "listen and understand" something else entirely. Otherwise, you would be on a White American message board (or an Australian one) talking about, trying to learn about, asking questions about White Privilege.

Apparently, instead of reaching out in that way, you've "reached out" to AA.org and felt it necessary to listen to, ask questions about "What It's Like To Be Black" with the idea that it's "valid" which, I guess, means that somehow that actually is productive towards... understanding White Privilege??

This is about White Privilege, isn't it?

Have you ever seriously thought how you're going to get to a process where you(we) "End White Privilege (and Imbalances)" while not focusing on White Privilege at all?

quote:
The only thing I "want white people to get out of the dialog" is to listen to and understand what is needed for equal rights, equal opportunities for all people on the planet.
Think about that.

Not a mention of how Whites who you yourself say, hardly ever think about White Privilege, are suppose to confront it.
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Australians have a really big problem with their attitude toward the Aboriginal people. There was the whole era where their children were taken away (stolen generations) for dubious reasons and given to white people... and subsequently lost their rich heritage as an indigenous ethnicity.

How is that issue being worked on in Australia now?

...besides that, what about that John Howard leaning waaaaaaaaay far to the right politically.

I was just wondering since she is our resident Australian...
quote:
Apparently, instead of reaching out in that way, you've "reached out" to AA.org and felt it necessary to listen to, ask questions about "What It's Like To Be Black" with the idea that it's "valid" which, I guess, means that somehow that actually is productive towards... understanding White Privilege??


it's not that I'm not listening... quite the contrary.

I am thinking a lot about what it means to be white and white priviledge. And I do ask questions of myself and other white people. It's an ongoing process and I am doing the best I myself can. I am also thinking about what can bring an end to white 'attitude' and develop consciousness about being white as well as how to build bridges that lead to equal rights and equal opportunities for all.

I see all of that as quite a large thing to think about. Sorry if haven't gone from A-Z fast enough for ya, but it is a journey. Roll Eyes

My views on Black and White America have changed quite profoundly since I joined AA. So my reading here has been more beneficial than you know. I had not even heard the term 'white priviledge' before AA... so excuse me, but I've had a bit of a learning curve.

So yeah, I may have a heck of a way to go, but I'm determined to take the journey. There is value in the links and info people here suggest - I do need time to follow them up, digest them, think about them.

I also post here because I genuinely like the people here and am interested in everyone as an individual - not whether they are black or white or green or striped.
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
Australians have a really big problem with their attitude towardthe Aboriginal people. There was the whole era where their children were taken away stolen generations for dubious reasons and given to white people... and subsequently lost their rich heritage as an indigenous ethnicity.

Quite right, but it is some Australians, not all Australians.
Perhaps the most important process that has been stalled is Reconciliation. A lot of Australians want our federal government to say 'Sorry' to the members of the Stolen Generation, and the indigenous population. There has been a century-long struggle for rights for Aborigines in Australia. What has it achieved? One thing is the right to vote. That it took until the late 1960s is outrageous.

Another issue is a treaty. Australia has no treaty with its indigenous citizens, whereas New Zealand, the USA and Canada does. The current government has promoted the idea of 'mutual obligation' involving what are called Shared Responsiblity Agreements with local communities. Whether that is 'enough' or whether there should be an over-riding, all-embracing agreement is open for debate right now.

I can't speak for all Australians, however speaking for myself and people I know, we want an honourable place for Indigenous Australians. A formal Constitution of the nation remains unresolved.

It is rarely up for discussion. And indigenous issues in general are low on the political agenda.

One of the few politicians in this country who has a holistic and inclusive grasp of government is Bob Brown, who I would love to see as our Prime Minister. Because he targets civil rights, and the environment, however, it's unlikely he will ever be in a position of such authority.

The fact is... more Australians care about having a low mortgage interest rate than anything else. That is what they vote for in John Howard.
Yes, John Howard is right wing. Our 'alternative' is no alternative. They maybe more to the left but they are a disorganized and out of touch bunch of hard men who can't even agree among themselves. To their credit they have some previous history of highlighting indigenous people but not currently.

A lot of energy has been spent on whether Australia should become a republic. Not many Australians identify with Britain anyway, so I doubt it would truly make any quantum change in how Australians see themselves, however while there is value in the Republic debate I am suspicious of the real aims of the debate itself and doubt they are in fact altruistic (I see it as a thinly disguised political power struggle for a political to become a President), it distracts everyday Australians from more important, and immediate needs, which are to direct people, skills, education and funding to indigenous Australians with a priority to regional and outback Australia.

What Australia needs politically is a new party with some younger future-looking members. With so much similarity between parties, I don't think there are strictly right and left wing parties here and both parties struggling with a crisis of belief.

It can be argued today's political climate requires thinking beyond left and right that includes a new humanism. The most vexing political issues here include: overconsumption, work-family balance, immigration and the environment. Indigenous issues should feature on this list but in reality in most Australians' minds they don't.

quote:
How is that issue being worked on in Australia now?

not well enough.
The other reason I while away so many ignorant moments on this site asking foolish questions is to help put indigenous issues here in Australia, in perspective. In my incredible 'ignorance' I actually believe that the more people read and ask questions - be they judged as stupid questions (how arrogant) or not - is to in some way help problem-solve issues in our indigenous community here and how. Yes I guess I could sit around worrying about whether I am too white or too ignorant or not conscious enough to do it but I'd rather make a start to do what I can.
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quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:
The most vexing political issues here include: overconsumption, work-family balance, immigration and the environment.



Sounds just like the U.S.A. to me.


quote:
The other reason I while away so many ignorant moments on this site asking foolish questions is to help put indigenous issues here in Australia, in perspective. In my incredible 'ignorance' I actually believe that the more people read and ask questions - be they judged as stupid questions (how arrogant) or not - is to in some way help problem-solve issues in our indigenous community here and how. Yes I guess I could sit around worrying about whether I am too white or too ignorant or not conscious enough to do it but I'd rather make a start to do what I can.


appl tfro

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