quote:
Originally posted by Raptor:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
What if, the choice to have your murdering son were linked to a packaged-deal ... a daughter that discovered of the cure for AIDS? Have one, have to have the other. Would that influence your decision any?
How does this speak of "free will" on the part of these mortal beings?


I was speaking to your free will - whether or not to bring the child(ren) into the world since (with the advent of the foresight thing) the responsibility would ultimately be yours.


quote:
Query:

How do you, or anyone for that matter, know the gender of 'olodumare'? You keep saying "his" and "him"?


I dunno ... He just feels like a man to me! Smile That, plus the fact that He created the male human first .... and then realized He left out the best parts and had to do a re-do with the female counterpart ... that's a "man thing" all the way! Razz

A woman would have gotten it right the first time! Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor:

Let me see if I get this right:

Sex before marriage is a 'sin' because, it takes two to raise a child[ren].


yeah
quote:
Sex before marriage is a 'sin' because, by not keeping the goods on lock down would undermine, or perhaps inhibit, a lady's ability to critically analyze a man's true intentions.


Not a sin ... just a really bad choice in most cases.
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

I was speaking to your free will - whether or not to bring the child(ren) into the world since (with the advent of the foresight thing) the responsibility would ultimately be yours.


As it is 'ra's' responsibility, then?

And if so, then 'yhwh' is the only...entity...that can exercise 'free will'.

quote:
I dunno ... He just feels like a man to me! Smile That, plus the fact that He created the male human first .... and then realized He left out the best parts and had to do a re-do with the female counterpart ... that's a "man thing" all the way! Razz
Okay.

So then, as I've brought up in another thread..., what about lilith?

quote:
A woman would have gotten it right the first time! Big Grin
For me, it is about getting it right no matter who deserves the credit. Wink
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor:

Let me see if I get this right:

Sex before marriage is a 'sin' because, it takes two to raise a child[ren].


yeah


What if one is physically not able to 'make baby'(and they do exist -male and or female); how is this, then a 'sin'? Or is that couple in the clear?
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor:
Let me see if I get this right:

Sex before marriage is a 'sin' because, it takes two to raise a child[ren].

Sex before marriage is a 'sin' because, by not keeping the goods on lock down would undermine, or perhaps inhibit, a lady's ability to critically analyze a man's true intentions.

'Sex before marriage', being the operative phrase.


When common sense is used, I think you can UnderStand what I mean.

Sex before marriage can be viewed as a regrettable action because in the end, you get all of the consequences of sex and miss out on all of the benefits of marriage.

MoreOver, while one may engage in sex before marriage, that in no way says that they can not "critically analyze" the intentions of certain individuals. Some individuals intentions just change...so yes, it is best to have the ring first. That way, even if they change, no one can accuse YOU of "doing the wrong thing" at least...

...since we as a society like to place blame.

"Wisdom Is A Woman Who Grows!"
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

I was speaking to your free will - whether or not to bring the child(ren) into the world since (with the advent of the foresight thing) the responsibility would ultimately be yours.


As it is 'ra's' responsibility, then?

And if so, then 'yhwh' is the only...entity...that can exercise 'free will'.


No, not necessarily. Your concept is based on a predisposed case of foresight and predetermination. If neither of these factors are viable, then Lil' Raptor's 'free will' can exercised to a completely different destination than the one you're talking about.

I don't believe that everything is set in stone primarily due to the existance free will and the freedom to exercise it. I think that man was given free will .. and that God doesn't really need it.

quote:
So then, as I've brought up in another thread..., what about lilith?


Who's lilith? Confused

quote:
For me, it is about getting it right no matter who deserves the credit. Wink


Of course it is! Big Grin But you can't help it. Wink
Lilith was supposedly Adam's first wife...

But they got into a fight over sex...he wanted her on the bottom and she wasn't going to have it figuring it rendered her as "the weaker" individual.

He said she needed to obey him, she said, "To Hell with this," then she left him standing in the dirt in the garden.

He ran and tattled to God that his Woman left him, and begged God to make her come back.

God sent an Angel to bring her back and told her that if she didn't come back, she'd be banished from the Garden forever - she said screw that.

So the story goes that God replaced her and created Eve.

Well, Lilith changes her mind, figuring Adam would miss her. She went back to the Garden and saw Eve. In a jealous fit, she supposedly led Eve astray, who then led Adam to fall as well.

When that happened, an Angel supposedly came to her and told her she was damned and would have no offspring....no legacy.

But trying to cheat again, she made a deal with the devil and became his concubine. With that union, it is said that she committed to "one up" God by becoming impregnated with as many evil spirits as she could to bring into the world to try to help Satan defeat God. If that weren't enough, she decided to drug Adam and "rape" him in his drunken stupor to become pregnant and thwart Eve.

This is where the supposed idea of "wet dreams" comes from...the ideal that Lillith's evil spirit is hovering over Men at night, raping them, all to become pregnant and spawn more evil spirits.

.....sordid tale, huh? This could be deemed the Original Soap Opera...Days of Our Wives?

hehehehehehe...

"Wisdom Is A Woman Shaking Her Head!"
quote:
Originally posted by ShayaButHer:
Lilith was supposedly Adam's first wife...

But they got into a fight over sex...he wanted her on the bottom and she wasn't going to have it figuring it rendered her as "the weaker" individual.

He said she needed to obey him, she said, "To Hell with this," then she left him standing in the dirt in the garden.

He ran and tattled to God that his Woman left him, and begged God to make her come back.

God sent an Angel to bring her back and told her that if she didn't come back, she'd be banished from the Garden forever - she said screw that.

So the story goes that God replaced her and created Eve.

Well, Lilith changes her mind, figuring Adam would miss her. She went back to the Garden and saw Eve. In a jealous fit, she supposedly led Eve astray, who then led Adam to fall as well.

When that happened, an Angel supposedly came to her and told her she was damned and would have no offspring....no legacy.

But trying to cheat again, she made a deal with the devil and became his concubine. With that union, it is said that she committed to "one up" God by becoming impregnated with as many evil spirits as she could to bring into the world to try to help Satan defeat God. If that weren't enough, she decided to drug Adam and "rape" him in his drunken stupor to become pregnant and thwart Eve.

This is where the supposed idea of "wet dreams" comes from...the ideal that Lillith's evil spirit is hovering over Men at night, raping them, all to become pregnant and spawn more evil spirits.

.....sordid tale, huh? This could be deemed the Original Soap Opera...Days of Our Wives?

hehehehehehe...

"Wisdom Is A Woman Shaking Her Head!"


Oh dear Lord ... puhleeeeeeezzzeee tell me you are kidding!!!! Eek Eek
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor:

Let me see if I get this right:

Sex before marriage is a 'sin' because, it takes two to raise a child[ren].


yeah


What if one is physically not able to 'make baby'(and they do exist -male and or female); how is this, then a 'sin'? Or is that couple in the clear?


The 'sin' is in having sex before marriage. If you ascribe to the notion that the sole intent (and purpose) of sex is to procreate, whether or not that actually happens is secondary to the commission of the act itself.
quote:
Originally posted by ShayaButHer:
When common sense is used, I think you can UnderStand what I mean.'


There were times when I exercised "common sense" in many of our back -n- forth's and on several occasions it was determined as "assuming", accurate or not.

Therefore, it was 'common sense' the compelled me to break it down hence, "Let me get this right", in an attempt to minimize, or possibly eliminate error.

quote:
Sex before marriage can be viewed as a regrettable action because in the end, you get all of the consequences of sex and miss out on all of the benefits of marriage.


Isn't this over generalizing folks who were and or are married? We know folks, many, matrimonial experience, past and or present, who could substantially challenge that notion.

quote:
That way, even if they change, no one can accuse YOU of "doing the wrong thing" at least...

...since we as a society like to place blame.


Who cares what 'they' think?

Besides, 'you' can't please everyone no matter what you do.

So the question is then:

No matter what one does, can that person except/live with whatever the outcome of their actions and or honestly look him/her self in the mirror?
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
If you ascribe to the notion that the sole intent (and purpose) of sex is to procreate, whether or not that actually happens is secondary to the commission of the act itself.


No question, if it wasn't for sex, I wouldn't be here.

Secondly, I subscribe to the notion that folks have sex, because they like/love/lust sex and don't won't kids. Married or not.

Come to think:

Is it a 'sin' to be married and choose to not want kids?
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
If you ascribe to the notion that the sole intent (and purpose) of sex is to procreate, whether or not that actually happens is secondary to the commission of the act itself.


No question, if it wasn't for sex, I wouldn't be here.

Secondly, I subscribe to the notion that folks have sex, because they like/love/lust sex and don't won't kids. Married or not.

Come to think:

Is it a 'sin' to be married and choose to not want kids?


LOL .. yes, Raptor, people sin! Big Grin Both by accident and on purpose!!

I am an 'on purpose' sinner! I have no intentions of getting married. I also have no intentions of giving up having sex! I took precautions while sinning so that I wouldn't have children without being married ... which was probably another sin all by itself!! lol And the odds are good that I will sin again in the very near future.

But ... you know ... there's that pesky little 'free will' thing exercising itself again ... Big Grin
slight correction:

There are folks that,"have sex, because they like/love/lust sex and don't won't kids. Married or not."
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
LOL .. yes, Raptor, people sin! Big Grin Both by accident and on purpose!!

I am an 'on purpose' sinner! I have no intentions of getting married. I also have no intentions of giving up having sex! I took precautions while sinning so that I wouldn't have children without being married ... which was probably another sin all by itself!! lol And the odds are good that I will sin again in the very near future.

But ... you know ... there's that pesky little 'free will' thing exercising itself again ... Big Grin


I take it you use the term 'sin' universally and not because it connotes...the obvious.
quote:
You know what, urbansun? I'm not even going to go through your post line-by-line and deal with the ridiculous little semantics and hair-splitting trivial details of what is supposed to be an intellectual conversation.

I am in no way *confused* about the difference between a state of sin and an act of sin. The distinction between the definitions is elementary, to say the very least. As is trying to disintegrate the meanings of "fair/unfair, just/unjust," etc., into something being uber-cerebral. It's not rocket science, sweetheart. Once/if you can come up with a working definition for those things, then perhaps there can be hope for the furtherance of this conversation.

And lastly ... if you, yourself, do not/are not starting off with an *assumption* that there is a Creator ... then I really need to be having this conversation with someone who does.

Now ... can we get to a *grown up* conversation about this ... or is it still the *Mickey Mouse lunchtime/nap* hour??


Ebony, come on now, that is highly unlike you. If you ask a question and I answer the best I can I think it is disrespectful of you do demean it. Too me that is not a fair way to have a conversation, and I think you know I wouldn't do it to you. I don't take anything folks say in here personal, but I think there are a few of you, you included, that I general respect enough to answer and I would hope you would do the same to me.

My point is that when you begin asking the "why" of my or our (meaning literalist, who believe in original sin) you begin to ask doctrinal questions. You, to me, have never seemed to be a bible thumper, so I attempted to explain it in the best way possible. Now if that is not sufficient, or out of bounds to continue the conversation sorry gal, I cain't do much better unless you call me on the phizzone.
quote:
What exactly did/does either statement have to do with what I said about original sin? Or were you just posting something kinda obvious for the sake of posting it because of the general subject of the thread? Check my pet peves post...


Oshun, I appreciate your pet peeves, even though I won't read the post.

The statement was specifically related to the concept of original sin and the sociological structure of virtually all historical societies. I will let you make the rest of the connection if you actually read anything I write. If you don't let me know and I won't bother. I think that is a fair use of both our times.
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
No, not necessarily. Your concept is based on a predisposed case of foresight and predetermination. If neither of these factors are viable, then Lil' Raptor's 'free will' can exercised to a completely different destination than the one you're talking about.


Viable factors? Coming from you, ER, after stating:

quote:
What if, the choice to have your murdering son were linked to a packaged-deal ... a daughter that discovered of the cure for AIDS? Have one, have to have the other.


Altering a scenario, that I posted, so that it could fit your... I don't know...perhaps your "predisposed case of".... Confused giveup

quote:
I don't believe that everything is set in stone primarily due to the existance free will and the freedom to exercise it.


If by "set in stone" you mean, scripted well in advance, then okay. hat

quote:
Who's lilith? Confused
I haven't read all of ShayButHer's explanation, nevertheless you did ask me who was lilith, so:

Lilith was created the same time as adam; hubby and wifey. She was adams equal and wanted to be treated as such. The line was drawn when she didn't submit to adams sexual advances. I recall reading somewhere that lilith said something like [paraphrasing], 'How'bout you be on the bottom and I be on top'. She even wanted her own place.

(Perhaps some allegorical meaning in all that.)

I opine that the patriarchy didn't like the message that women might receive from this litith gal:

Confident
Independent
liberated
EQUAL

Ultimately, adam was like, "b_tch gotta go".

So later, 'god'-uhr, 'god' inspired scribes had to do her off and invent a woman who is submissive. Sexually and otherwise.

Later on, we read of lilith becoming some demon scavenging for wasted sperm to create "illegitimate demon children". In the kabbalah, we find that lilith has become symbolic for evil or a female devil.

According to a barbara walker, she says in her book, "The Woman's Encyclopedia of Symbols and sacred Objects":

"Hebraic tradition said Adam was married to Lilith because he grew tired of coupling with beasts, a custom of Middle-Eastern herdsmen, though the Old Testament declared it a sin"

...Interesting, to say the least.

quote:
Of course it is! Big Grin But you can't help it. Wink
This is, perhaps, where a healthy amount of humility comes in handy. hat
quote:
Originally posted by urbansun:
quote:
You know what, urbansun? I'm not even going to go through your post line-by-line and deal with the ridiculous little semantics and hair-splitting trivial details of what is supposed to be an intellectual conversation.

I am in no way *confused* about the difference between a state of sin and an act of sin. The distinction between the definitions is elementary, to say the very least. As is trying to disintegrate the meanings of "fair/unfair, just/unjust," etc., into something being uber-cerebral. It's not rocket science, sweetheart. Once/if you can come up with a working definition for those things, then perhaps there can be hope for the furtherance of this conversation.

And lastly ... if you, yourself, do not/are not starting off with an *assumption* that there is a Creator ... then I really need to be having this conversation with someone who does.

Now ... can we get to a *grown up* conversation about this ... or is it still the *Mickey Mouse lunchtime/nap* hour??


Ebony, come on now, that is highly unlike you. If you ask a question and I answer the best I can I think it is disrespectful of you do demean it. Too me that is not a fair way to have a conversation, and I think you know I wouldn't do it to you. I don't take anything folks say in here personal, but I think there are a few of you, you included, that I general respect enough to answer and I would hope you would do the same to me.

My point is that when you begin asking the "why" of my or our (meaning literalist, who believe in original sin) you begin to ask doctrinal questions. You, to me, have never seemed to be a bible thumper, so I attempted to explain it in the best way possible. Now if that is not sufficient, or out of bounds to continue the conversation sorry gal, I cain't do much better unless you call me on the phizzone.


Oh wow!! You mean you were serious?? Confused

Oh, okay well, let me apologize! flowers My bad. Smile I had no idea you meant that to be taken literally.

In that case, my revised response after re-reading your post is ... what's wrong with you? Confused Why are you talking like that .. and what the heck is all that supposed to mean? 19
quote:
Originally posted by ShayaButHer:
Lilith was supposedly Adam's first wife...

But they got into a fight over sex...he wanted her on the bottom and she wasn't going to have it figuring it rendered her as "the weaker" individual.

He said she needed to obey him, she said, "To Hell with this," then she left him standing in the dirt in the garden.

He ran and tattled to God that his Woman left him, and begged God to make her come back.

God sent an Angel to bring her back and told her that if she didn't come back, she'd be banished from the Garden forever - she said screw that.

So the story goes that God replaced her and created Eve.

Well, Lilith changes her mind, figuring Adam would miss her. She went back to the Garden and saw Eve. In a jealous fit, she supposedly led Eve astray, who then led Adam to fall as well.

When that happened, an Angel supposedly came to her and told her she was damned and would have no offspring....no legacy.

But trying to cheat again, she made a deal with the devil and became his concubine. With that union, it is said that she committed to "one up" God by becoming impregnated with as many evil spirits as she could to bring into the world to try to help Satan defeat God. If that weren't enough, she decided to drug Adam and "rape" him in his drunken stupor to become pregnant and thwart Eve.

This is where the supposed idea of "wet dreams" comes from...the ideal that Lillith's evil spirit is hovering over Men at night, raping them, all to become pregnant and spawn more evil spirits.

.....sordid tale, huh? This could be deemed the Original Soap Opera...Days of Our Wives?

hehehehehehe...

"Wisdom Is A Woman Shaking Her Head!"


No patriarchy in that tale huh? Strangely, Lilith is represented in the old school version holding an ankh looking thingy and has wings... In the new school she has the snake, and anyone familiar with Goddesses religions and/or African spiritual systems knows what that means... Hmmm. I see a connection. What is the myth REALLY saying? For the non-literalist of course... The demonization of the mother-goddess by the patriarchal monotheists perhaps?

Oh, and you forgot the part where she turns into a demon and eats babies...

Here you go ER... Lilith
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
No, not necessarily. Your concept is based on a predisposed case of foresight and predetermination. If neither of these factors are viable, then Lil' Raptor's 'free will' can exercised to a completely different destination than the one you're talking about.


Viable factors? Coming from you, ER, after stating:

quote:
What if, the choice to have your murdering son were linked to a packaged-deal ... a daughter that discovered of the cure for AIDS? Have one, have to have the other.


Altering a scenario, that I posted, so that it could fit your... I don't know...perhaps your "predisposed case of".... Confused giveup


Okay, Raptor .. let's get this straight once and for all! Big Grin

In the case of your homicidal kid ... that whole senario has little (actually nothing) to do with me, as I do not share your speculation in "foresight" and "predetermination" of things to come.

I have no opinion on the issue of 'responsibility - either God's (for the offenses of mankind) or yours (for that little murderer you speak of) due to the fact that I don't believe either of you know what you're going to get with your respective creations.

Instead, I believe in the concept of "free will" ... You won't conceive a "murderer" unless Lil' Raptor determines that from choices s/he makes as to whether s/he will be another Jack the Ripper or the CEO of a Fortune 500 company.

So, my "altered scenario" was not made to fit anything of mine. I was opining as to what might be YOUR choice in YOUR set of circumstances to YOUR dilemma of whether or not responsibility would be yours for the deliberate act of creating a monster! Big Grin


And thanks, but .. I really didn't need a repeat of that psycho Lillith story!! Eek Once was much more than enough. Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
No patriarchy in that tale huh? Strangely, Lilith is represented in the old school version holding an ankh looking thingy and has wings... In the new school she has the snake, and anyone familiar with Goddesses religions and/or African spiritual systems knows what that means... Hmmm. I see a connection. What is the myth REALLY saying? For the non-literalist of course... The demonization of the mother-goddess by the patriarchal monotheists perhaps?

Oh, and you forgot the part where she turns into a demon and eats babies...

Here you go ER... Lilith


Daaanng ... in this rendition homegirl does almost everybody in the Bible!! laugh
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
No patriarchy in that tale huh? Strangely, Lilith is represented in the old school version holding an ankh looking thingy and has wings... In the new school she has the snake, and anyone familiar with Goddesses religions and/or African spiritual systems knows what that means... Hmmm. I see a connection. What is the myth REALLY saying? For the non-literalist of course... The demonization of the mother-goddess by the patriarchal monotheists perhaps?

Oh, and you forgot the part where she turns into a demon and eats babies...

Here you go ER... Lilith


Daaanng ... in this rendition homegirl does almost everybody in the Bible!! laugh


lol Other females(and former goddesses) in semetic scriptures were also make into demons and whores... Hhhhmmm wonder why? sck
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Okay, Raptor .. let's get this straight once and for all! Big Grin

In the case of your homicidal kid ... that whole senario has little (actually nothing) to do with me, as I do not share your speculation in...
Nothing I said suggested it had to do with you. Now your buzzing the tower with wild pitches and I'm not hardly crowding the plate...


quote:
Instead, I believe in the concept of "free will" ... You won't conceive a "murderer" unless Lil' Raptor determines that from choices s/he makes as to whether s/he will be another Jack the Ripper or the CEO of a Fortune 500 company.


Okay,

Now with all that said, does the kid have a choice? Does the kid have "free-will", if the kid's creator, know how he/she is gonna turn out well in advance and begets him/her anyway?

The kid, now.

Never mind me; never mind 'elohim'.

quote:
And thanks, but .. I really didn't need a repeat of that psycho Lillith story!! Eek Once was much more than enough. Roll Eyes


No need to roll your eyes at me.

You asked me, "who's lilith". Really.

Remember? Wink
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Instead, I believe in the concept of "free will" ... You won't conceive a "murderer" unless Lil' Raptor determines that from choices s/he makes as to whether s/he will be another Jack the Ripper or the CEO of a Fortune 500 company.


Okay,

Now with all that said, does the kid have a choice? Does the kid have "free-will", if the kid's creator, know how he/she is gonna turn out well in advance and begets him/her anyway?

The kid, now.

Never mind me; never mind 'elohim'.


Well, again, Raptor ... we're saying two different things!! You've asked two different questions and you seem to want me to answer them the same way .. which won't work! Big Grin

Now: To YOUR concept of predetermination of Lil' Jr.'s future, i.e., "if the kid's creator, know how he/she is gonna turn out well in advance and begets him/her anyway" ... then the answer is NO, the homicidal maniac has no "free will".

But ... I have no belief of such foresight on the part of the creator for that which he creates. I don't believe that happens or that there is such a thing. Sooo, in MY scenario ... YES, Lil' Raptor does have a choice. His future will be determined by the choices he makes, his "free will" will determine whether he eats people or not!
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Well, again, Raptor ... we're saying two different things!! You've asked two different questions and you seem to want me to answer them the same way .. which won't work! Big Grin

Now: To YOUR concept of predetermination of Lil' Jr.'s future, i.e., "if the kid's creator, know how he/she is gonna turn out well in advance and begets him/her anyway" ... then the answer is NO, the homicidal maniac has no "free will".

But ... I have no belief of such foresight on the part of the creator for that which he creates. I don't believe that happens or that there is such a thing. Sooo, in MY scenario ... YES, Lil' Raptor does have a choice. His future will be determined by the choices he makes, his "free will" will determine whether he eats people or not!

hug
I must admit, ER. I was, at first, thrown off by the "Lil' Raptor" phrase.
lol
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Well, again, Raptor ... we're saying two different things!! You've asked two different questions and you seem to want me to answer them the same way .. which won't work! Big Grin

Now: To YOUR concept of predetermination of Lil' Jr.'s future, i.e., "if the kid's creator, know how he/she is gonna turn out well in advance and begets him/her anyway" ... then the answer is NO, the homicidal maniac has no "free will".

But ... I have no belief of such foresight on the part of the creator for that which he creates. I don't believe that happens or that there is such a thing. Sooo, in MY scenario ... YES, Lil' Raptor does have a choice. His future will be determined by the choices he makes, his "free will" will determine whether he eats people or not!

hug
I must admit, ER. I was, at first, thrown off by the "Lil' Raptor" phrase.
lol


LOL ... Well .... him, too! Wink Big Grin

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