The Number One Hinderance to Black Achievement Is ..... ?

Well, I picked lack of solidarity as number one, because within that choice is exactly what whipwrex first posted (We are our own biggest enemy) for all the very reason that Kweli4Real stated (too many of us tend to spend too much time tearing each other down)!

And I find that is so very sad.

EBONY ROSE....

I'm just don't think its all that simply. UNITY, that is. We talk about having "Lack Of Solidarity" and Unity but nobody says what we are going to be unified about. Unfortunately, it's too much to assume that we're on the same page; obviously, we're not. We have to find out what it is we all can agree to and go for there.

I agree, Kweli4Real is the voice of reason here. However, the only problem in disagree is exactly the problem many of us attempted to address. The various ALL OF THE ABOVE responses say, frankly, we can't afford to neglect one issue. Therein lies the answer to "solidarity".

For some reason we think that Unity/Solidarity is everybody doing the same, one thing. No, we would be better off understanding that Unity is a big umbrella that can incorporate us doing any number of very different things for the same cause. That is assuming that we all really do have the same goal. Sometimes I wonder about that but I do have faith that we all want a better Black America. That's what we have in common.

quote:

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Before we can advance as a community, we must internalize the truth that there are many paths to the same goal. - Kweli4Real

---

That's something that Malcolm X grew to understand so clearly. He knew that in the CRM that White America was forced to choose to deal with him or Dr. King. He matured and understood that the goal was the same when he exclaimed, "Dr. King wants the same thing I want. Freedom!"

To him, it didn't matter how we got freedom or at least how we opened the door to it but rather that we did - do it. That's the definition of "By any means necessary!" So he lent his support, influence and protection to Dr. King in whatever way he could.

That's what we need to do.

"Brother A, you're concerned and have expertise in this. Do your thang! Let me know how I can help." "Sister B, Do your thang! I got your back!"

Even if were focused on similar issues then we all or both attack it the way we see fit and either provide support for one another or at least not get in each others way.

I apologize for being preachy (and long winded)but Kweli's point, IMO, is the most valid. I wouldn't necessarily characterize it as trying to [1] "tear each other down" or being [2] "our own worst enemies". I hope it's not that personal and that we could begin uplifting each other and point to and speak in contructive terms. I'm not sure that either of them does that.

Kweli said we need to think-outside-of-the-box. The one being the box were we only "think" there can be one way, one angle, one leader. With that kind of mindset, which is not unique to us, how can we not "pull each other down" if only one vision is suppose to win out?

quote:

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"We spend more time and effort arguing about why what you say won't work [as opposed to what "I" say will, if "I" even have an idea of my own], rather than helping to refine what will work and then helping to put it into effect."

---

I think we should be mature enough to understand that sometimes when it appears that we are in disagreement that we really are attempting to "refine" each others ideas and ADD to them. Perhaps we need to be open and clear with our intentions and leave the egos at the door. [I know at times I need mine checked.]

Bottomline, we shouldn't be on the defensive - or offensive for that matter - when we're talking about solutions - actions. We all have a job to do and if you see something that needs to be done, then do it. It matters not whether I see it quite the same way or have the same sense of urgency. You would be negligent, not me, if you allowed that thing to continue unattended to because I didn't agree - or vice versa.

In essence, we can have various committees and still be one organization, organized around a UNITY of PURPOSE and not some ambiguous notion "we all need to come together" and do one thing when we have so much to do.

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If we have differences, let us differ in the closet; when we come out in front, let us not have anything to argue about until we get finished arguing with the man." - MALCOLM X

Personally, unity does not mean that we will not challenge each other to LOGICALY DEFEND ones positions. If you study nature and evolution, you will know that RESISTANCE and CHALLENGE evolves a STRONGER organism over time. If people on this forum are seeking to GROW, then they should welcome challenge. I for one will not let anyone, black or white, make statements that when logically deduced and processed infer the inferiority of black people...in its essence (ie...black people are our own worst enemy...implication meaning that we created the mess that were in today). When someone does that....its tantamount to calling us "N1ggers" and I WILL NOT accept it...regardless of the source!!!! So if you are black, white, green or whatever, if you come with such rhetoric...then expect to be intellectually torn down and challenged, because I hear enough of that BS from enemies of black people and I certainly do not need to hear it from black folk or folk pretending to be black.

In our quest for black unity, just remember that EVERY BLACK PERSON IS NOT YOUR IDEALOGICAL BROTHER OR SISTER, NOTWITHSTANDING THEIR BLACKNESS. There are black people who work on behalf of the ideology that has kept us down for centuries, consciously or subconsciously they do this. They infiltrate black unity and work as subversives to divide so that we can be conquered, as THEY have already been conquered and now choose to work against the best wishes of the black masses. So no, do not expect to give someone a pass.... just because they black.... or on a forum...IMPLY that they are black.

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
`6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
(((' (((-((('' ((((
Noah The African in America

quote:

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"...I for one will not let anyone, black or white, make statements that when logically deduced and processed infer the inferiority of black people...in its essence (ie...black people are our own worst enemy...implication meaning that we created the mess that were in today). When someone does that....its tantamount to calling us "N1ggers" and I WILL NOT accept it...regardless of the source!!!!" - NOAH The AFRICAN

---

My sentiments exactly.....

I think some of us have internalized negative perceptions to the point that when those views or attitudes are expressed all they communicate is negativity even when the intent is to positively motivate. The results end up being as destructive, depressive and demeaning as the external assaults because of heavily laced overtones [or undertones if you prefer] that project hopelessness.

Nothing in our history suggests that there is no hope.

We are but a speck in the annuals of time...

NOAH, you are correct! We do have to combat those that will tear us down from within and without. Nevertheless, when we are engaged in discussion/dialogue with comrads we have to be conscious of reassuring each other of support.

That said, I am leary of those with short, snappy comments who don't take the time to explain their views. I too question their intent and the extent of their knowledge and concern. This is not a casual affair.

We should be ready to answer to each other no matter how heated. How else can we answer the world?

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If we have differences, let us differ in the closet; when we come out in front, let us not have anything to argue about until we get finished arguing with the man." - MALCOLM X

I tend to believe it is more so human nature.

The mistake that I see quite often is the idea that we should be super human. You compare all of the other races and you shall see that they have the same problems as we do. White on white crime, sounds funny huh?

The question is what is behind that crime? Is it a rush, is it a desire for power? All things that are a part of every race of people.

Like what has been said before, unify under what? If you want true unity, take an example from the African tribes, look at the gangs, they show true unity. Could we ever unify as a people?

We have so many organizations but have you heard anything from them this month? What about last? How many radio stations do we actually own? How many television stations do we actually own? How many private schools do we own? How many colleges that we own are doing well off?

All of the education in the world is not going to solve these problems unless there are true entreprenuers that can come forward and address this problem.

Since I strongly believe that we are not going to agree what is more important, my question to you is this? What on the list is missing or is not important?

If they are all important, then why not place together a vision for all of these?

This is for me to see how may activists do we actually have out there. What would you do now to make these things come true?

If you can not do so now, what would you need to make these thing come true?

What am I going to do? Obtain my capital by giving away four years of my life as a civilian government contrator and work overseas, come back and start two already planned businesses with my family and one with a friend. With the potential to start more. Not to mention obtain my Bachelor's and Master's in Business Management and Administration.

It is my desire to create a Paralegal Service and Detective Agency to fight the legal system should it be necessary, to create a cost efficient, highly trained Ambulance Service (Using my EMT background), and most important, create a private school that will teach children what they truly need, math and science, financial responsibility and the true American history, to name a few.

Should things go very well then a television and radio network.

A very large vision, huh? All of this is dependant on the growth of my initial ventures and possible collaboration with other balck businesses that share the same desires.

One thing that is most importtant is that this must be created quietly. We all know from history how certain people can become jealous. I am just waiting for Bob Johnson to be attacked by the government or the media, only a matter of time.

Noah posted,

I for one will not let anyone, black or white, make statements that when logically deduced and processed infer the inferiority of black people...in its essence (ie...black people are our own worst enemy...implication meaning that we created the mess that were in today). When someone does that....its tantamount to calling us "N1ggers" and I WILL NOT accept it...regardless of the source!!!! So if you are black, white, green or whatever, if you come with such rhetoric...then expect to be intellectually torn down and challenged, because I hear enough of that BS from enemies of black people and I certainly do not need to hear it from black folk or folk pretending to be black.


* Bro, you sure make it easy for me to not to have say anything sometimes....thanks...I hear you though....I don't do the "black is associated with inferiority or failure" thing with blacks or whites...and I do not let the self-hatred of some black people(political, social, cosmetic or otherwise) become my damn affliction also. I just tell them why they have issues, which they can take it or leave it, but still know they have issues, nevertheless....

Noah ...

In this statement:

quote:

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I for one will not let anyone, black or white, make statements that when logically deduced and processed infer the inferiority of black people...in its essence (ie...black people are our own worst enemy...implication meaning that we created the mess that were in today).

---

... What if the implication is different? Do you still feel the same way? I guess first I should ask if you can conceive that that statement means something different than you believe it to? For example, let's say your enemy imprisons you for 3 years, gives you nothing but bread and water. At the end of this term, the key to the cell is placed in arms reach just outside the door next to your meal, but every time you reach through, you take the bread and water and leave the key where it is. Are you not your own enemy for not giving yourself freedom?

To say that we are our own worst enemy does not have to imply that one created their own mess, but that they don't do enough to get out of it. Your enemy may well have created the mess for you. But if you don't take the opportunities when they come to you to clean that mess up, then you can not only blame that enemy for current state. Bound or free, you always have the responsibility of yourself to make the best of your situation that you possibly can. If you don't, you are indeed working against yourself... and isn't the definition of an enemy one who works against you?

Ebony...

I think the implication is there. If for no other reason than saying or implying that, "We don't take responsibility for ourselves..." and noting that conditions are worsening in some respects then:

Who's fault is that?

OURS!
Why?? Because we didn't or haven't taken responsibility "for ourselves". So, the implication is that we are responsible and, in essence, created this downward spiraling mess that we're in because WE haven't been on our job.

What else can, "WE ARE OUR OWN WORST ENEMIES" mean in the context that WHIPWREX put it in?

[1] We fight amongst ourselves too much and,
hence don't get much accomplished;

• "We tear each other down just to make our own point!"

[2] We actively participate in our own
degradation with our lack of priorities.

• "We don't vote enough."
  
• "We idolize rappers and athletes."

Either way... IT's OUR FAULT that we [remain] in the current state we're in. However, in the context WHIPWREX put that statement in he used definition -2- which says explicitly that it is our fault. There's no way around it!


[Also... could you please specify who "they" are in your post. I didn't know from one sentence to the next who you were talking about.

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on June 16, 2003 at 09:01 AM.]

The only thing that I can tell you, Ebonyrose, is that I do not ignore the psychological-cultural ramifications and reactions to oppression. People tend to see oppression or assault from the tangible perspectives of physical or monetary reactions and not the less tangle evidence of reactions of thought and thinking, which manifest into human behavior.

In your example you tend to assume that imprisonment is ONLY physical and ignore the fact that imprisonment can also be MENTAL. Do you know that there are people who have been imprisoned for so long, that their reaction to that prolonged imprisonment manifest with content and comfort with their surroundings? There are people who have been locked up so long that they FEAR being released to freedom, because all they know is the culture and structure of imprisonment. Such people were not born with this mental state, but rather, the mental state was developed as an EFFECT of the CAUSE of imprisonment. Thus, a person in prison who refuses to seek freedom, when freedom is in his grasp, has obviously been mentally conditioned to do so as the psychological consequence or EFFECT of being imprisoned.

Thus, in conclusion you are correct...BUT IF AND ONLY IF, the MIND is impervious from reaction from external stimuli and conditioning, which we all know is FALSE.

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
`6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
(((' (((-((('' ((((
Noah The African in America

[This message was edited by Noah The African on June 16, 2003 at 09:05 AM.]

Ebony...

Our situation/circumstances are not static. The changing conditions no matter how much you acknowledge that their genesis is from an outside source dictate that - again in the actual context we are discussing this or rather the one inwhich it was brought up - we are responsible for those changes and, therefore, our current condition.

WHIPWREX specifically said:
"We can't blame White people for that!"

So who's getting the blame then?

Furthermore, following your DEFENSE of WhipRex, using your analogy, blacks have a greater propensity per capita of being too stupid to grab the key to their freedom, instead of grabbing the bread and water and thus we remain imprisoned...at our own fault. Again, does this not suggest inferiority of black people? Why are we so stupid to self-imprison and self-destruct ourselves while others have much less propensities of doing such? For if every racial and ethnic group has an equal propensity of being their own worst enemy, then is not mentioning the proclivity in blacks then merely a distinction without a difference and therefore has nothing to do without our social and economic deprivation relative to others?

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
`6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
(((' (((-((('' ((((
Noah The African in America

Originally posted by EbonyRose:

quote:

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Are you not your own enemy for not giving yourself freedom?

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I'm sorry ...

Did either of you two answer this question?

It's basically a simple "yes" or "no", really. I read your posts as best I could, but perhaps I missed something! And it seems you broke everything I said down into the most minute of syllables!! So, if you wouldn't mind and if you could just take your explanations above, and just break it down for me into something I'd be better able to comprehend like a Yes, you are, or a no, you're not, I'd really appreciate it!

Ebony...

The problem is most Black people have a convoluted definition of what freedom is...
I really don't think your definition would jive with mine. So we have different conceptions of the same goal (I'm sure...)...

I'm sorry... But I must have skimmed over your analogy.

Going by your analogy YES!... But that's assuming your analogy fits what we're talking about.

Your analogy, and perhaps your actual opinion, suggests that "the enemy" is removed/disappears after the bondage-term. That is hardly applicable to our situation.

You have some simplistic idea that somehow the interplay of RACE-RELATIONS & RACISM - i.e. it's debilitating effects - ended at some point and somehow Black people can't pick up the pieces or the key[s] in this case and move forward. Race-Relations are just like any other relationship. They are comprised of a series of Gives & Takes, back-and-forth.

(I hardly need to quote NOAH's ACTION/REACTION thesis... Suffice it to say that it applies here - to Race-Relation[ships]...)

You seem to subscribe to the notion that Racism or the impediments of racism ended I guess with the Civil Rights Act. Correct me if I'm wrong. I would like to think that since you once emplored me to give our predecessors credit for their hard fought struggles/gains that you would also give them credit to be equally capable of securing freedom (for us by now) if somehow it was as easy as Grabbing A Key.

The problem I have with your analogy is that it is too simplistic and disregard of real world, real life circumstances - a living and active enemy; and a significantly nuanced path
to freedom.

As far as taking responsibility... That's a no-brainer. That's to be understood. It's not that I disagree with you or the notion that it is our responsibility to raise ourselves up. On that I wholeheartedly agree. The problem is we share a society (willingly) with our historical enemy. NO. They haven't just left a key and vanished into thin air.

Whether or not you would say there's an active conspiracy network or not, it is undeniable that many initiatives that would 'help' the Black community are quickly met with resistance.
Yes... we need to be more self-reliant but we were self-reliant to some degree - perhaps way more then than now - under segregation.

Funny how that message was being preached during the CRM and was considered part of extremist, hate and/or segregationist parties. If it is so important to us now, why wasn't it then as well? Hmmm... I wonder why so many Blacks were pro-integration then... and would be still now?

Seems like we respond so easily to the "bread & water" conditioning, mimicking verbatim what Whites say about us.

Ebony...

I would also appreciate if you would define some the ideas you present - e.g. "take the opportunities when they come to you to clean that mess up".

That - your notion of "missed opportunities" -seems as if you are implying exactly what NOAH asserted:

"...blacks...being too stupid to grab the key to their freedom..."

Is that what you are saying? YES - or - NO ?

Please inform me of the OPPORTUNITIES we have failed to take advantage of that have so graciously "come to us".

Nmaginate ...

First of all, let me be honest and tell you that I have only glanced through your diatribe ... basically just looking for an answer to my question! And I believe I saw a yes!

Now with that said, I also saw something about some assumptions, some analogies, some interpretations, some implications ... and other such things based primarily on opionion and not fact. I really don't care what you "deduce" that I've said ... you should know by now that I say what I mean and mean what I say. You don't have to assume ... but it seems the trouble you have is in comprehending!!

My question was not "simplistic" but it was simple. It was a "yes" or "no" and based upon what I said, that was really all it called for. I didn't ask you to place anymore meaning into it than there was. And in answering the question as it was presented, you came up with a yes! Because that is the correct answer. You don't have to be stupid to not do what's in your own best interest. Inaction or inactivity doesn't equate to stupidity. It just means you didn't do anything! It's as plain and simple as that. If you want to call yourself stupid every time you fail to take an action that may benefit you, you be my guest! But, I'm not going there with you, cause that doesn't describe me in the least bit!

Now, I also saw that the last thing you said was to give you an example of a missed opportunity that we failed to take advantage of towards benefitting us. Well, I'd be happy to .... Florida 2000 Election.

The disenfranchisement of voters in Florida in 2000 was primarily done in Black communities. I didn't hear of many White's names being purged from voting rolls that had had their names on it for the past 20 years!! The Black voters in FL were outraged. They took to the streets, marched, demonstrated, protested, picketed, the whole nine yards! Now, Black people in other states were equally as mad! I know I was mad. Weren't you mad? We all huffed and complained in our homes and cried discrimination and fraud and oppression ... and we were right!! It was all that and more.

But, did we, as a community, as a people, as brothers and sisters united in the struggle, go and rally behind our bretheren in Florida? No. How many of us even wrote letters or bombarded the FL legislature with e-mails or phone calls? If people, whom we lovingly call "our people" could be so brazenly cheated out of their votes, wouldn't it behoove us to mobilize and unify and support, "have the backs of" our fellow Black voters? Yeah, we should have. But we didn't.

Of course, the NAACP, the Civil Rights Commission, and a dozen other organizations rushed to the scene to help stand up for our rights and try to help right that grievious wrong. And they say that changes were made to guard against it happening again. But we, as a people, individually unified, had an opportunity to really straighten that mess out!! We had the opportunity to stand up for our rights, to make our displeasure heard, to show that were were tired of Black people being picked on, and to show some solidarity over an issue of tantamount importance. But, we didn't, did we? Were we stupid? No. Just inactive. But we shouldn't have been.

If even 500 Black people from every state in the Union had travelled to Florida to lend our voice and our determination and our support in that fight for justice, 25,000 additional demonstrators would have at least gotten noticed .. at best made a difference and produced some results. It could have been a springboard for a more massive fight for Affirmative Action, for better educational opportunities for our children, for mobilizing to get recognized as an economic power. But we stayed at home and shook our heads and said what a shame it was. The world was watching ... and we didn't give them much to see. That, dear friend, is a missed opportunity for real!

You stand up and ask White America to give us our due ... but how often do we stand up and ask for it ourselves?

[This message was edited by EbonyRose on June 16, 2003 at 11:48 PM.]

The question for you, EbonyRose, is do you or do you not see black deprivation today as a product of black inferiority. Yes or No is apropos.

It is my contention that you do not want nor are concerned about the seed and root of your argument; thus, you just seek a yes or no answer to your superficial analysis. But why does the African seed of humanity not produce a flourishing life as does the white seed? Is the black seed inferior to the white seed or is it the fact that the seeds are equal but the soil, sunlight and rain that the two seeds have been planted in are different?

I have learned that most Anglos tend to assume or allude that the reason that their plant yields a superior harvest is due to a superior seed and not superior soil, rainfall and sunlight. This falls in line with the philosophy of white supremacy. This is the hypothesis that you have also concluded EbonyRose, whether you are women enough to admit it or intelligent enough to recognize it. Plants that have stunted or abnormal growth is rooted in one of two options or a combination there of. Those two options are that either the seed is genetically inferior or the environment (soil, sunlight and rain) was not conducive for the plant to grow properly.

People who tend to focus on the soil, sunlight and rain are seen are popularized as excuse makers by those who like to focus on the seed as if what the seed creates is not a reaction to its environment. No matter how eloquently and responsible it sounds to focus on the seed in and of itself, it is simply an erroneous proposition. The ONLY way that the African seed will yield a bountiful harvest equal to that of the Anglos, while in an inferior environment for growth, is if our seed is superior.

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
`6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
(((' (((-((('' ((((
Noah The African in America

EBONY ROSE...

You analogy was SIMPLISTIC!

Your Florida Election example is in a long line of Beggar Politics that most Black people are tired of.

"White People Don't Treat Us Bad!" "Will you please stop... We love everybody. That's what Dr. King said!"

The bottom line while you talk as if political protest that you, perhaps rightfully suggest should have occurred more forcefully the resolution is still contigent on Whites to redress our grievances.

THAT's THE BEGGAR POLITICS that Integration has brought us. That's a fact. It is only your OPINION that greater degree of protest would yield real and lasting change.

Look at us now after the famed CRM "set us free". If we are so free and "equal" why do we still have grievances?

Your idea of Black Beggar Protest - "Let our voices be heard!" - is a stark contrast to self-reliance and self-responsibility. YOU still abdicate the ultimate responsiblity to the American political structure and accept the Beggars Role instead of envisioning a political role for us in this nation where that is effectively eliminated. [Don't have a clue do you... Simple... ]

It doesn't matter if every last 35 mil of us went to Florida... We were not going to ultimately decide the end game, only loudly ask for 'them' to do right by us.

Sorry... but that broken record is getting old.
Marches and sit-in went out with the 60's. And as we can see they only yielded what Whites conceived as appropriate for us which often times is not the same as what African-Americans need or want. Oh but I forgot you're one of those happy ones who like them some crumbs!

If you are still willing to prostitute our legitimate concerns to the White decision-makers, THAT'S YOU! You may very well feel like we missed an opportunity because we "didn't work that thang" like we should have.

I for one know that stupidity is defined as doing the same thing over-and-over and expecting different results.

The Beggar Protest Politics of the 60's belong to that era. Now come up with an analogy and/or plan-of-action that is grounded in reality and designed to get real results.

Hint: Self-reliance means you CONTROL who and what you rely on - aka yourself. Self-responibility means you don't allow anyone in anyway to 'take care of your business' for you.

So tell me why we still accept White politicians and American political structure to 'take care of our business'?

quote:

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It could have been a springboard for a more massive fight for Affirmative Action, for better educational opportunities for our children, for mobilizing to get recognized as an economic power.

---

When will we let go of the Beggar Politics?

Tell the truth! All those things boil down to us asking White people to do for us or help us.
You even said it - "get recognized".

Get recognized by who EBONY?

Aren't we responsible now? Don't we have access to the KEY? Then WHY do we have to "fight for Affirmative Action and educational opportunities..."?

See EBONY, as always, SIMPLISTIC people like YOU always slip up and make a fool out of themselves. What there to fight for EBONY? We got the KEY right outside of the cell door!... right??

That means the battle is over... right?

That's exactly what your analogy conveyed. We were "imprisoned" then after a period were given the means to access our "freedom" for ourselves. NO MORE ENEMY and - by your simple, simple, SIMPLE analogy - apparently no more fight or resistance from that enemy.

Funny how you come right around to legitimizing the criticism I offered.

Admit it! What you got to fight for if it is as simple as grabbing a key?....huh?

What you present is a scenario with a certain conclusion. If we take the key that is within "arms reach" then we can unlock the cell door and walk away to 'freedom'.

The idea now that you have come around to that we need to sieze every opportunity to fight for our rights which does not have a certain outcome. We wouldn't be wondering how the Supreme Court will rule in the U of M case if we were certain.

You have just villified Noah and myself.

I understand where you are coming from in terms of more actively pursuing the fight for our rights but that contradicts to a great degree your analogy that it is all within our reach... if you are honest.

Beyond being Beggar Politics, your protest model is reactionary and not pro-active. By your example, we allow our enemy to disrespect us and put us in a 'mess' then it is our responsibility to get out of it. What about the responsibility to not let the mess happen in the first place?

[Note: Consider your 'positive' post on the Texas Drug arrest. Where is the plan to eliminate the effects of racism and Black subjugation to White authority? ... No, we'll just petition for 'our right' to stay under that authority and hope to be treated better... next time!]

It's just your ego to think that what you say is gospel and perhaps it is. A lot of people are aware of the many inconsistencies if not complete contradictions that exist in the Bible. Now we now with your own words that those inconsistencies and contradictions are endemic in your viewpoint.

Thanks for clearing that up!

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on June 17, 2003 at 09:17 AM.]

Why is it when black people built this country, died for it and contribute more than others to it, demanding what is rightfully theirs is begging.....and when the same sorry azz people who profited from our labor and oppression free of charge demand the same....it is perceived differently? I really do not like those terms because begging is when all things are equal and one is just sorry or lazy.....fighting against the odds and barriers is not begging...it is fighting within the infrastructure...plain and simple...regardless of the results..........I agree with endeavors outside of the normal channels....but we have contributed too much to this country to just turn our backs like quitters from the mainstream fight......it is like those who say no to reparations....they are just willing to let things be "on the house"...if that were the case, our ancestors could have just accepted their plight and waited to see what would happen.....

Kevin...

I don't care for the term either...
But I use it here to illustrate the point that [1] That's how it is percieved;
[2] In the absence of other strategies that
force a choice or presents options,
the "Power-That-Be" can choose whether or
not to grant our "demands" fully if at all.

I don't like the fact that we allow ourselves to be violated then want to protest as if we didn't know we were vulnerable.

My point is, if protest is the only option we have then it equates to begging when there is no moral, political, or economic power/force to punish the power structure for no responding to our demands.

We exhausted the moral option with the CRM. Politically and economically we are in disarray and don't pose a real threat or at least not a consistent or formidable one.

quote:

---

"...we have contributed too much to this country to just turn our backs like quitters from the mainstream fight..." - KEVIN

---

Honestly, I don't believe in abandoning any fight on any level. But you must admit that situations have to be drastic for the "mainstream" to acknowledge any other methods.

HOW LONG has Reparations been an issue? How long has it taken to even be close to getting mainstream support?

I'm sorry... but I'm not one for the gradualism that is so "mainstream". Like I said, we have worn out our moral welcome. We have to pursue simultaneously other means that will secure political and economic power that will give us standing when and if our rights are violated.

Right now, if you're honest, we don't have much standing at all. We are hardly a footnote in American political landscape and our mainstream approach is responsible for at least a significant portion of that.

The Reparations debate is a prime example.

KEVIN...
I never suggested that we do nothing or accept our plight... I think you know that. I'm not a Black Conservative so you can calm down!

...Take a couple of deep breaths... Okay...
Alright.

I believe wholeheartedly in Malcolm X's "By Any Means Necessary". If that means supporting mainstream politics then fine. But to the extent that those methods become ineffective or cannot maintain the "gains" of our ancestors then we need to explore other options and not put all our eggs in one basket less that strategy becomes undermined and perhaps out-dated to address contemporary concerns.

We need a model that secures a substantial measure of the rights we hold dear and not let so many of them hang in the balance to the political whims of the larger society. We, in fact, need to stand up like our ancestors and make another real step towards real freedom. One that cannot be repealed by an act of Congress or a Supreme Court ruling.

KEVIN...

When do we decide to alter our methods, include a multi-pronged attack and how do you assess the current state of "mainstream" tactics?

You alter methods simultaneously once they have been thought out with tangible, measurable goals in order to make a smooth transition occur. The current state of mainstream tactics are viable, but collectively unfocused......in other words, there are good ideas but not enough people in tune with them. We are a part of the economic infrstructure but not wielding our clout. There needs to be a national awakening period all over again such as that experienced in the 60's.....from there, economic unity will bring about social and political success.....there needs to be a move made that significantly impacts the economy of this country. The first move could make a selected industry fail as a warning shot across the bow of 'the uss america'.....with specific political and social demands that have consequences if not met.....from there, the actions could be increased or curtailed depending on the response and the results.....just a thought......

Well KEVIN...

I'm more Nationalistic in my opinions...
Instead of separatism which isn't viable, yet, if desired, I believe in political autonomy or semi-autonomy - i.e. self-determination.

I believe the ultimate goal is to have control over everything that affects our lives. I think "Nationalism" is the "awakening" we need. It does not preclude any of those methods you mentioned to be installed and recognize. I think that once we start think in those terms instead of solely being marginal participants in the larger U.S. political entity then we can more readily forge a consolidating ideology.

Please don't get hooked on the traditional use of the term Nationalism. That is really what we are both talking about anyway - "a national awakening..." We both see that there needs to be an organizing principle or a Unity of Purpose so I feel we really need to explicitly define what our goals are in that respect.

I believe we can work towards a new form of multicultural democracy where we have primary controlling interest over our affairs and interact with the larger U.S. gov't from a concrete position of relative power.

That's the point of reference behind my posts (See my Elect A Black President post... anything on Reparations...) Like I said, nothing I'm saying precludes methods you're advocating. At least to me, my thoughts could provide, conceptually at least, the catalyst for mass action instead of waiting for the negative events of necessity to dictate positive action.

[You have to excuse me. This is my pre-occupation.]

Nmaginate posted,

I believe we can work towards a new form of multicultural democracy where we have primary controlling interest over our affairs and interact with the larger U.S. gov't from a concrete position of relative power.


*Exactly....I still think we can work to enhance our relative power in the meantime based on past economic gains within the infrastructure....and then transition out of it....from a seperate-POWER perspective.......

Kevin...

I'm not proposing a "separate" power per se.
And yes, if we can marshall some type of clout to force anything into being, THE MORE THE MERRIER!

So, I think to some degree we agree and I have to admit that in order to have a Black gov't apparatus installed it will undoubtedly require all the strength we can muster in strategically designed protest, etc. However, I really don't think many of us are articulating what that multicultural gov't will look like and how it will be fashioned for us derive benefit from it and still be a part of the American society.

We need a complete vision of methods, goals and all the tactics required. We are not explicitly stating those things which could be problematic. We should learn from the 60's Movement... We need to have a plan and a after-plan, etc., etc.

Separatism may be an option once we have become fully established with a BLACK CONTROL OF BLACK TAXES form of gov't mechanism/body to the extent that it is desired and affordable.

It's a play on the terms but I have to clarify...

Kevin...

I reduce down to the College Dorm on a Saturday night (as well as other ways)...

When its time to "pitch-in" for a pizza everybody ante up. No one has control over the funds of another and instead of pizza they might choose to order "individual" subs or whatever. They're roomies so they realize they have to be flexible and respect each others taste.

Unfortunately for us, we 'pitch-in' via our taxes but only get the left-overs, if anything is left at all. THAT'S NOT DEMOCRACY and that's not a reality I'm willing to allow to persist.

That to me is the clarity of the vision I have (though it is nothing to take credit for ... plenty of people may very well have the same idea.)

When will I ever learn to stop banging my head against the brick wall that is your twisted and hallucinagenic logic?

EBONYROSE...

Anytime somebody - like YOU - says the "dream of integration... started on the plantation" I have to trust that their Bizarro worldview of what is "twisted" is actually the most reasonable way of seeing things or should I say the natural way and not twisted, except in your mind because it may very well be you who are "twisted".

Yeah... I can remember the scene where Kunta Kente said, "Fiddla, I's wants to INTEGRATE!"
... Yeah that's why he got his foot cut too...huh?

{I told you I see your point but just don't view the world as static as you do. Life is dynamic... But in your clear "lack of solidarity" mode and "tear down" syndrome all you can do is hold to your SIMPLISTIC idea and not admit to its obvious flaws... Oh, well...!}

Nmaginate, Ebony admitted she did not read your response; she only glanced through it looking for an answer that confirms her twisted logic. It would be who of you to not respond to individuals who ask questions but don't care to read the answer given to a question they asked. Some questions require explanation less the answer given can be used as pleased by the questioner. This is how polling works. A question is asked with a choice of A or B or without an answer given but the response to the question can be used as the questioner likes. Example; I received a phone call from a group probably the group who reports to Nielsen, they asked what cable channel I watch for News and I said Faux news. Now, no other questions were asked and when I hung up the phone it occurred to me that what I just told them can be used by Faux and its news analyst to say they are the most watched and therefore people believe they are better than all the other cable channels and are truly fair and balanced. This would not explain why I watch Faux news, but because I said I did watch it they used my answer to suit there needs. Had I been able to explain to them that I watch Faux news because I like to know what the enemy and those who have different views than mine is thinking and I like to know what lies they are telling the people my viewing of Faux news would be seen for what it truly is. The question then becomes how many other people watch Faux news for the same reason but are not given the chance to explain why they watch Faux news when asked what cable news channel they use for viewing news.

This is the nature of Ebony's question, it is was framed such that it would render a response that would serve to confirm a point she was trying to make, however if those being questioned were allowed to explain their answers then the answers given can not be represented incorrectly by Ebony who is the questioner. This is why I try to avoid hypothetical questions because most hypothetical questions are asked seeking an answer that does not reflect reality. To avoid calling Black people dumb, lazy and self destructive; Ebony proposed a question that would render an answer equal to us being dumb, lazy and self destructive but as witnessed in this thread many of the members of this board are too smart to fall for such trickery.

-------------------------
The Black man and woman in America is a nation of people; a stolen and lost nation, but a nation none the less. The U.S. just destroyed Iraq in thirty days and has allocated close to $80 billion to rebuild Iraq. The Black man and woman in America was terrorized and destroyed for well over four hundred years. How much do you think it would take to rebuild a nation that was destroyed and bombed for four hundred years if it takes $80 billion to rebuild a nation destroyed in thirty days?


More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem

quote:

---

This is the nature of Ebony's question, it is was framed such that it would render a response that would serve to confirm a point she was trying to make...

...avoid hypothetical questions because most hypothetical questions are asked seeking an answer that does not reflect reality.

---

So... Bro. FAHEEM??
Are you saying that EbonyRose's analogy:

For example, let's say your enemy imprisons you for 3 years, gives you nothing but bread and water. At the end of this term, the key to the cell is placed in arms reach just outside the door next to your meal, but every time you reach through, you take the bread and water and leave the key where it is. Are you not your own enemy for not giving yourself freedom?

... was (how can I say...) SIMPLISTIC??
Ah.. NOT based on REALITY?? (Oh! You said that!)
Ah.. STATIC?? Ah.. Lacking real-life dynamics??
... Ah ... Ah... NOT APPLICABLE???

I just want a little clarification.

Not only is her analogy simplistic but it lacks real life correlation to the struggle of the Black man and woman in America. More information would have to be made known concerning her hypothetical prisoner in order for this analogy to actually work. Was this man imprisoned illegally against his will, did the state profit from his imprisonment, was he made to hate himself and others like him during his imprisonment, was he robbed of everything that was uniquely his while imprisoned. These questions must be answered before we can say this prisoners plight is equal to the history of the Black man and woman in America. Simplism would best describe her question. One of the definitions of Simplism would be the reduction of a problem to a false simplicity by ignoring complicating factors.

-------------------------
The Black man and woman in America is a nation of people; a stolen and lost nation, but a nation none the less. The U.S. just destroyed Iraq in thirty days and has allocated close to $80 billion to rebuild Iraq. The Black man and woman in America was terrorized and destroyed for well over four hundred years. How much do you think it would take to rebuild a nation that was destroyed and bombed for four hundred years if it takes $80 billion to rebuild a nation destroyed in thirty days?


More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem

Faheem...

What's simplistic to me about her analogy is just what I stated to her. What happens to the jailer-enemy?

See, I believed she tried to address psychological conditioning with the bread-and-water thingy. But what she didn't account for at all or care to define is the actions/reactions of the jailer-enemy or what the approximate correlation to the "key" is in real life for us.

Those are the most problematic...

She didn't consider the other obstacles in fleeing the "prison" once out-of-the-cell either but that really wasn't necessary for me to understand or agree with it, just the nature of the enemy mostly.

I have a problem and noticed it in other postings with her, for one,(Why We Are Integrated) with the notion that somehow White folks - or rather those in controlling positions of power to institute, maintain and promote White interest - are in full retreat and somehow have no effect over the life chances/choices of the Black collective. Sadly, the principled stand of Black responsibility from most that promote it is too often accompanied with the idea that whatever happens in this White controlled society and their actions/reactions towards us are of no consequence to us.

We have no impediments, apparently.
We both know that is hardly the reality and most would have to admit it. And the idea that we are to forever achieve in spite of... is not a forecast for lasting results. Even God's amazing immune system he installed in us as humans breaks down and we, inevitably, get sick.

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If we have differences, let us differ in the closet; when we come out in front, let us not have anything to argue about until we get finished arguing with the man." - MALCOLM X

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on June 18, 2003 at 08:54 AM.]

I have to admit, that because I didn't see "my choice" in the pol options, I skipped this forum. And then, reviewing it later, I watched the discussion degenerate into really silly hair-splitting disagreements over things, I ignored it. I'll go back to ignoring it eventually, but I feel the need to say that this thread illustrates a growing problem on this board, that frankly started shortly after TBWT.com was shut down. Lately, there's been a lot of obtuse, self-important arguments purporting to be based on "logic," and this thread fell complete victim to it. And it's not that the "logic" is always faulty in itself, but its application usually is. In other words, it is often ILLOGICAL to present abstract lessons on "cause and effect" or "reaction and opposite reactions" and apply them to discussions that don't call for them.

Put simply: asking what "the Number One Hindrance" is not necessarily asking what "the number one root cause" is. If I can identify three or four things that, if the average black person in America would just do them differently, would make a big difference in our collective fortunes, then I don't want to hear criticism about how my naming the three or four things is flawed because I failed to make an inquiry into the root cause or the past.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Failure to rebuild a city and fortify it so it can better withstand the next earthquake is more of a hinderance to the improvement of the city than the original earthquake was that first destroyed it. It doesn't mean you ignor the fact of the first earthquake. But in the first question, "what's the number one hindrance," if the choices are, 1, lack of funds to rebuild; 2, lack of willpower; and 3, too many people are moving away, what's the sense in posting, "Oh no, there's a 'faulty dilemma' syndrome," or whatever, "because the #1 hindrance is the earthquake"? There is no logical flaw in excluding the historical root cause from this poll. There's no reason not to infer, if u think it's necessary, that the question has an understood, unspoken acknowledgement of the historical root causes.

In short, there's nothing illogical about understanding that the opposite of a cause is not usually the solution. And you don't have to prove that you understand thoroughly the historical root causes every single time you strive for solutions. Understand them, of course, but once understood, move on to the solutions.

Between stuff like this, and the guy who attacked the poll because the question didn't specify which African-descended ethnicity enough, I'm starting to wonder if there are members who dispute for the sake of dispute, or for the sake of making themselves sound like such brilliant thinkers that they can spot the minutiae in any issue. "Watch me razzle-dazzle these negroes by pointing out THIS incredibly deep point!" I think enough is enough.

Now I should point out that there are people who are guilty of what I'm focusing on here whom I highly respect. I probably have a similar tendency without realizing it. But many of us need to tone ourselves down a few pegs, and realize that not every statement made on this site calls for the most exacting, most submolecular logical analysis. The Truth is the truth because it makes sense, and it requires the enunciation of super-highbrow, abstract principles only very rarely in order to be perceived. I think many of us have other, more ego-based reasons for making these pronouncements. I think it needs to stop.

.....

VOX...

That's just the nature of things...
You will notice on re-examination how many commented including myself initially with short answers without higher-powered analytics...
Many of the opinions were like yours (at least in terms of the inadequacy of a narrow list...) except they decided to comment when you didn't.

Then... The first major contribution came from someone whom I don't think falls in your "cause and effect", "action and reaction", "root cause" grouping. NO. The first extended post was someone who I guess overstated their choice one of the given options with a thorough explanation of why they believed in that option...

Then it went "downhill" from there.

I can understand not using certain principles in every argument made. I can understand that...

But I have to differ with you on the idea that we should regulate thoughts a certain way... after the fact. When those types of problematic or inappropriate arguments come up I think the best time to deal with them, in the same spirit that you are doing, is in the heat of the 'battle'. That way we can all be remind that we are straying away from the topic at-hand, if indeed we are.

Good points...
I just think that's the nature of diversity of opinions and the diverse reason why we respond. We should, however, be more conscious of the tone of our dissent... Definitely...

Points well taken.... (as I reflect on them...)

Hear, Hear Vox. This is the exact point I was trying to draw attention to in my "Debate Style" thread. However, upon review of the thread, it appears that I failed miserably, as the thread disolved into the distraction I lament.

So, I am forced to conclude that:

1) I did a poor job of drafting the poll and should have drafted a statement similar to Vox's post;

2) It doesn't matter the topic or substance of the post, it will eventually disolve into an exercise of mental/(psuedo-)intellectual masturbation; and,

3) Those that claim "open-minded pursuit of truth" are being disingenuous and the real pursuit is "winning the debate."

P.S.

I'm already counting the responses that breakdown this post as flawed and illogical.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vox:

But many of us need to tone ourselves down a few pegs, and realize that not every statement made on this site calls for the most exacting, most submolecular logical analysis. The Truth is the truth because it makes sense, and it requires the enunciation of super-highbrow, abstract principles only very rarely in order to be perceived. I think many of us have other, more ego-based reasons for making these pronouncements. I think it needs to stop.

---

I agree. I don't want people to get so caught up in the "construction" of what they want to say that they end up becoming too self-conscious to post at all. We've got a pretty smart and well-read group here. I'm really proud of that!! But I've heard that we can be intimidating to some. I'm committed to creating a warm and engaging place where we can discuss topics with integrity, graciousness, and intelligence.

Hey - I keep telling my 5 and 3 year old boys that it's not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game. Right?



Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.

Vox point is well taken but those of us who see the fallacy in analogies made by any member of this board should point it out. I believe all this talk about how other members write their thesis to make their point is stemming from a belief that their intent is self aggrandizing. Most if not all the men and women who post on this site are adults with children and do not need confirmation from any other adult on this site to make them feel good. Though many of us are familiar with one another, we really do not know one another. We all would like to believe what we write here is received in the spirit that we wrote it but that does not happen and will not ever happen. I can only speak for myself when I say that what members of this board think of me does not matter based on whatever they think they know about me is based purely on the words I write here and like every one else here I am so much more than the words I write on this board or any board. I will never say to another member you do not know me because the truth is they do know me but what they know about me is limited to what I write on this site.

Vox, is an example of what I am saying in that he just finished law school but hardly ever discuss the law on this site. This says to me that whatever I think I know about Vox based on what he writes here is limited to what he writes here but he of course is not limited as a man by the words he write here; he is more complex than the words he write here.

I don't believe that anyone comes here to prove they are articulate, can use fancy big words and to razzle dazzle others with their intelligence. Many of us know other Black men and women who can care less about issues facing Black people and would not ever visit a forum to express an opinion concerning Black people. I disagree with many people but one thing I understand about all who visit this board is that they have an opinion and have an interest in the state of Black folk. We may not agree but their interest in our affairs speaks volumes when put up against those who have no interest in our affairs.

Everything spoken on this site should be broken down on whatever level the person breaking it down feels it need to be broken down. The attempt to ask or suggest that someone refrain or not break something down is equal to asking them to write as you write and think as you think. We only come to this site to present arguments we believe are logical and if during the presentation of an argument one breaks a thing down to its "sub molecular" level, than so be it. This is how they present their arguments and this is how we should receive their arguments. We would not ask an author to leave out certain aspects of their writing style because then his writing would not be uniquely his or hers. So it is with what members of this board write; their writing style is theirs and should be received as such.

The very thing you criticized in your post Vox, is how your post was written and I would not expect less from you because this is your writing style and when I read a post by you I know its you because of that and I would not change that or ask you to change it.

-------------------------
The Black man and woman in America is a nation of people; a stolen and lost nation, but a nation none the less. The U.S. just destroyed Iraq in thirty days and has allocated close to $80 billion to rebuild Iraq. The Black man and woman in America was terrorized and destroyed for well over four hundred years. How much do you think it would take to rebuild a nation that was destroyed and bombed for four hundred years if it takes $80 billion to rebuild a nation destroyed in thirty days?


More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem

quote:

---

I don't want people to get so caught up in the "construction" of what they want to say that they end up becoming too self-conscious to post at all. We've got a pretty smart and well-read group here. I'm really proud of that!! But I've heard that we can be intimidating to some. I'm committed to creating a warm and engaging place where we can discuss topics with integrity, graciousness, and intelligence.

---

MBM...

First of all, I want to say thank you for the FORUM... It is really a great one. Tops in quantity and quality. Because of that, I understand your concerns as Moderator/Founder.

Now... my thoughts...

INTIMIDATION: To those who would be intimidated that sounds like a personal problem to me. They clearly must have self-esteem problems. I thought we were all adults. Could I ask what specifically is intimidating???

SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS in CONSTRUCTION of posts:
I think you always have to be self-conscious of making sure you are communicating exactly what you mean and consequently how it will be perceived. That's the risk of posting. If your opinion/slant on a certain subject happens to be in the minority you have to deal with that but that should prohibit anyone from posting.

The whole point is about expressing your ideas. If by chance no one seems to feel the same way you do... then maybe this isn't the forum for you or maybe you shouldn't look for validation through agreement but through those who can learn to respect your viewpoint because you can articulate it.

WARM ENVIROMENT: That all comes from the spirit in which all discussions are engaged.

If somehow we think this forum is bad at deginerating from the origin of the post-topic then all I have to do is hold up BET.com in contrast. ALL the views here are intelligent, articulate people expressing what often happens to be divergent opinions that, as we can see, even reflect differences on style as well as substance.

AGAIN.... Thanks for the FORUM...

Oh... I wanted to say: WHY IS IT SO HARD NOT TO SAY: "Hey NMAGINATE, you are too busy berating people and not contributing to the health of the forum." ....

Why can't we say by name (and as I said in another post) and during the "offensive" posting/debate that a certain person is going astray... WE ARE ALL ADULTS! I think we should trust ourselves to act like some.

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If we have differences, let us differ in the closet; when we come out in front, let us not have anything to argue about until we get finished arguing with the man." - MALCOLM X

quote:

---

Those that claim "open-minded pursuit of truth" are being disingenuous and the real pursuit is "winning the debate."

---

Tell me how you suppose we all engage in debate/discussions where we all have passionately defined positions and disengage in face-saving ways?

I can agree or disagree...
But it's one thing to say it and another to either do it or inform others how to do it...IMO

Clearly at some level we all take comments about what we write personal to some extent... You wouldn't be COUNTING if you didn't...

But how does that automatically take away from the forum...

Like I said... Call people/offenders by name.
Otherwise, I think it's cowardly - regardless of the intent to be tactful.

Well, if you one does not use a skill or knowledge, they will eventually lose it. I certainly do not hope Vox is advocating the "dumbing down" of intellectual discourse, so that those who practice verbosity will not be viewed as arrogant and self-aggrandizing. When I was in grade school and was taught a new word.... we had to use that word in sentence aloud. The purpose of that was to engrain the understanding in your memory. That technique has not been lost upon me today as I DO seek to exercise my verbal knowledge...but not for the purpose of impressing an audience....but rather for the purpose of maintaining the aptitude to do so. This is how I grow and seek self-improvement and I will not be given that up so that people might feel more comfortable about not having a similar goal.
I think Vox and others may be too caught up in Form as apposed to substance.

If a group of scientist or doctors were trying to figure out a cure or how to send a spacecraft to another galaxy, I dare say that if the group of scientist followed Vox suggestion as far as not breaking the problem down to its roots and logic, that cures would rarely be found and we would not as humans sent men to the moon.

I do not apologize one bit for my technique. All existence is rooted in cause and effect and actions and reaction. This is a rule of nature and all ingredients of nature, including humans, are bound by this rule.

I could not help but conjuring up an image of the "uppity Negro" as characterized by many Anglo Americans back in the day, while reading Vox comments. Usually, all this Negro would be guilty of is simply TRYING TO BETTER or STAND UP for HIM or HERSELF. But that threatened some lesser achieving Anglos who seen a threat to their RELATIVE position threatened by the rise of a black person. It also conjures up the images of the club scene when an attractive light skinned sister would get the "look at that B1tch...she think she all that", from some of the other sisters who felt threatened by her presence. Thus, there does actually exist people who think they are all that and who are out to impress. However, there are also people who are just being themselves and trying to be the best that they can be. Some of you need to learn how to distinguish the two phenomenons...VOX.

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


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`6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`)
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(((' (((-((('' ((((
Noah The African in America

[This message was edited by Noah The African on June 20, 2003 at 01:21 PM.]