I was watching this show called "Iconoclasts" on the Sundance channel the other day, and in this particular episode, the had Maya Angelou and Dave Chappelle "interview" each other... D.C. asked M.A. if she knew Malcolm X... I became curious as the how Malcolm X is regarded in the Nation Of Islam now... Is he talked about? Is he ignored? Is he used as an example of what to do or not to do? Do any AA.org members who are members of the NOI have any personal feelings regarding Malcolm X?

I ask these questions in all seriousness... If you do not want to express your thoughts on the board, please PM me...

 

 

Peace,

 

AudioGuy

 

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Original Post
Peace....


quote:
if she knew Malcolm X... I became curious as the how Malcolm X is regarded in the Nation Of Islam now... Is he talked about? Is he ignored? Is he used as an example of what to do or not to do



Brother Malcolm had two lives. In one life Malcolm was a Civil rights leader, in the other life he was the Chief General in a Black Liberation Army. Malcolm was a soldier in the Nation Of Islam.

For many years Brother Malcolm served his professed belief with honor. In the end Minister Malcolm X allowed the enemy to trick him, and his service ended in dishonor.

As soldiers in the ranks of the NOI we are allowed to form our own mind, however, our thinking in this regard mirrors the thinking of most people who serve a Nation, we do not look favourably upon those who work against our cause. Brother Malcolm left the Nation Of Islam, and then proceeded to throw charges against the movement which he knew well would damage the work and progress of the believers...He wasn't just attacking The Honorable Elijah Muhammad, he was assaultig all of those who became members of this movement toward a Nation of our own.

Minister Malcolm was brilliant, talented, disciplined, courageous, well studied, and compassionate, however, our brother was also susceptible to the wicked game plan of those who wanted to see an end to the NOI. In the end our good brother became what I know he never saw himself becoming, someone who turns to the enemy to aid against his own...

This is an hoinest look, however, most in the NOI today do not give this history much thought..it is done, and there has been a movement between the families toward healing the old wounds...

The Honorable Elijah Muhammad was profoundly hurt when he received word of Malcolm's death...He loved Malcolm..The Nation Of Islam loved our brother Malcolm...The Honorable Elijah Muhammad loved him as one of His own sons...Our way of speaking about Malcolm internally is not with hatred..nor with contempt..We still admire the great work that he did, I guess most just wish things would not have gone the way they did, and wonder what the Nation Of Islam would have accomplished if our dear brother decided to stay the course...

There are those who think they know the facts...However from a soldiers standpoint things look a little different..Just think of it this way...If a soldier in the U.S. armed forces had a problem with the decision of his general, and then decided to leave the ranks and provide very important intelligence to the enemy of not only the General, but all of those holding a position against this enemy, how do you think others in the ranks of the military would feel about this soldier?


Kai
Speaking for myself and a few of the associates that I have as well as what I have witnessed over the years...

there are some in the NOI who are so far removed from the events that they really don't have an opinion yea or nay... they are emotionally removed from it... because in the Nation we are not instructed on how to feel about it... we have our own minds... we have listened to many of our officals and leaders in the Mosque' opinion on things and we see their point... and are still able to come to our own conclusions... there is no compulsion in Islam..

but for me personally I came in the Nation and was profoundly motivated by Malcolm's story... I came in the Nation after being part of a few revolutionary groups... I came in first through the influence of Malcolm (the power of his logic and the power of his elocution, then Dr. Khalid (the mystical hold on my femininity with his masculine presence and unwavering, unapologetic love of the struggle and black women in particular, then Dr. Alim (for his patience and steadiness and his push for us to achieve academic excellence and use it for our people) and my greatest influence was Min. Farrakhan (for spiritual reasons and inspiration).... The Nation has produced many great men and women that the believers look toward and Malcolm seems to always be a part of someone's list of people they admire...

I have always had a deep love respect and admiration for Malcolm's legacy and what he brought to the NOI. Many in the NOI do....

I look at his time spent in antagonism with the Nation not strictly through the eyes of government infiltration.... nor do I view him as a saint untainted by his own ego and frustration...

honestly he was simply a great man who went through a trial that was not handled very well.....

the main emotion that his story illicits is sadness and a mourning that such a man's life was cut too short....

Psychologically Malcolm seemed to be moving constantly and his resting place was not with Al Islam.... It seemed to be used as a cover to protect his positions in a time of turmoil...
One question: why did Elijah Muhammad put a silence punishment on Malcolm X (when he made the statement "chickens coming home to roost" referring to the JFK assassination) because black folks cared for Kennedy? I mean black people liked JFK, and FDR too. Just because they died in office, doesn't mean black folks forget about the Jim Crow madness that still existed after their deaths. I'm quite sure many members of the NOI had the same feelings about JFK too, but just didn't verbalized it as Malcolm did.

It doesn't make sense, because after the silent treatment, Malcolm was let go of the Nation, from what I've been told or read.
Peace.....



quote:
One question: why did Elijah Muhammad put a silence punishment on Malcolm X (when he made the statement "chickens coming home to roost" referring to the JFK assassination) because black folks cared for Kennedy? I mean black people liked JFK, and FDR too. Just because they died in office, doesn't mean black folks forget about the Jim Crow madness that still existed after their deaths. I'm quite sure many members of the NOI had the same feelings about JFK too, but just didn't verbalized it as Malcolm did.

It doesn't make sense, because after the silent treatment, Malcolm was let go of the Nation, from what I've been told or read



The Nation Of Islam has a military structure. All of the men belong to what is called the FOI (Fruit Of Islam). As such, every man belongs within a Chain of Command which extends from Master Fard Muhammd to The Honorable Elijah Muhammad, and then to the National Laborers of the Messenger. The Laborers are like the Cabinet of a President. Malcolm held the Position "National Representative Of The Honorable Elijah Muhammad", which means that He held the position which Minister Farrakhan holds today...There were hundreds of thousands of Men under Malcolm's charge...

Malcolm began his carreer with the Nation as a Private soldier, he quickly ascended to the Position of Captain, I belived in New York, and then Mionister..Malcolm was a meticulous trainer of Men...Malcolm was keen on Military discipline..As a Captain and Minister he was charged with putting insubordinates out of the Mosque if they violated an order, or rule of conduct.

Malcolm gave orders to His lieutenants, Malcolm gave orders to Capotains and Regional Ministers...Malcolm expected those under his charge to receive and obey his instructions...

Malcolm received an order from The Honorable Elijah Muhammad. he decided not to obey this order...


The Honorable Elijah Muhammad was aware of the fact that Black people viewed JFK as a saviour. Black families mounted pictures of JFK on the living room wall right next to the picture of the white Jesus. Black people not only loved the man, they looked to him as a Champion...The Honorable Elijah Muhammad was seeking to win the hearts and minds of black people...He did nit want to anger the black community by making harsh comments in a climate of mourning...This was his strategy...He was in the position to make this call...

Maloclm was not put out of the Nation. He left the NOI..He was silenced from public speaking as a NOI representative...The same Gag order can be given by any judge right now...


Kai
What was the order that Malcolm didn't obey? From what I was told, he was banned from speaking for 90 days. I didn't think it was indefinitely, or was it?
Peace....

quote:
What was the order that Malcolm didn't obey? From what I was told, he was banned from speaking for 90 days. I didn't think it was indefinitely, or was it?


The Honorable Elijah Muhammad issued a Nationwide directive requiring all of His Ministers to remain silent as it related to the death of JFK. Malcolm knew of this order...

Malcolm was suspended from public speaking for 90 days. thereafter Malcolm left the Nation by his own choice..After he left the NOI, he was placed in bad standing, similiar to Awol. Malcolm then began to appear publically to rebuke the NOI and The Honorable Elijah Muhammad.



Kai
Have any of you (Saracen, Kai, Whirling Moat, Virtue or Khalliqa Wink ) read the "The Autobiography of Malcolm X"? I ask because he paints a slightly different picture of what happened with he and the NOI...
quote:
Originally posted by AudioGuy:
Have any of you (Saracen, Kai, Whirling Moat, Virtue or Khalliqa Wink ) read the "The Autobiography of Malcolm X"? I ask because he paints a slightly different picture of what happened with he and the NOI...


Yes what is it {AudioGuy, AG, Revolutionarywithanaxetogrind Wink}???

Of Course I read it, you asked how he was perceived by others in the NOI and our personal feelings... if I'd known you'd wanted a comparative summary I wouldn't have answered...



Roll Eyes
Peace....

quote:
Have any of you (Saracen, Kai, Whirling Moat)


We are listening....

quote:
read the "The Autobiography of Malcolm X"? I ask because he paints a slightly different picture of what happened with he and the NOI...


Yes, we have read this book....

Malcolm explains the circumstances which led to his leaving the NOi. In the end, he left on his own...He was given time away from the Ministry however he was not put out....

Members in the NOI are very rarely kicked out of the Nation. A person who is found in violation of a Restrictive law in Islam, is given what we in the NOi call "Time". This means that the person receives time away from the body of believers. The person is still a memeber however they must remain away while on this form of leave...



We have spoken...



Kai
Peace....

I have a question for those who love the post NOI Malcolm...

What did Malcolm do in the ONE year he lived outside of the NOI to earn so much love and admiration?

Malcoplm left the NOI officially in 1964, he was assasinated in Feb 1965....What did he accomplish?


Kai
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:

Malcolm then began to appear publically to rebuke the NOI and The Honorable Elijah Muhammad.


Since he was no longer a part of the Nation, why shouldn't he have been able to do this? Did speaking out against the Nation, in your opinion, justify a death sentence?
Peace....



quote:
Since he was no longer a part of the Nation, why shouldn't he have been able to do this?



Malcolm had every right to speak his mind, however, there is no way that he could do so without injuring the very people that he professed to love. If Malcolm wanted to cure the problems between himself and the National Laborers of The Honorable Elijah Muhammad he could have done so in private so as not to inflict damage on those who still loved him as a brother.

Malcolm still had the standing to meet and deal with these problems from within the Nation. He chose to air these things in public. This act makes Malcolm appear vengeful...


quote:
Did speaking out against the Nation, in your opinion, justify a death sentence?



Of course not.

Malcolm created an opportunity for the NOI to disprove the lie which was being spread by those seeking the destruction of the organization. The COINTELPRO backed push in the media implied that the NOI was a one man show, Malcolm's actions and subsequent departure did not affect the NOI as it was hoped, to the contrary the NOi became stronger, and bigger.

Malcolm's death was a tragedy.

For those who do not know, The Honorable Elijah Muhammad issued a order forbidding any of the beleivers from harming Malcolm. He issued this directive in public.


Kai
I'm interested in anyone's thoughts on this.

quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:

The Honorable Elijah Muhammad was aware of the fact that Black people viewed JFK as a saviour. Black families mounted pictures of JFK on the living room wall right next to the picture of the white Jesus. Black people not only loved the man, they looked to him as a Champion...The Honorable Elijah Muhammad was seeking to win the hearts and minds of black people...He did nit want to anger the black community by making harsh comments in a climate of mourning...This was his strategy...He was in the position to make this call...


I'm not sure I understand the logic of this. Why would Elijah Muhammad seek to perpetuate the mythology of a paragon of white supremacy? There's got to be more to it than this. He sought to "win the hearts and minds of black people" by kowtowing to a leader who's government and system of operation his organization sought to overthrow? Confused
Peace....

quote:
I'm not sure I understand the logic of this. Why would Elijah Muhammad seek to perpetuate the mythology of a paragon of white supremacy? There's got to be more to it than this. He sought to "win the hearts and minds of black people" by kowtowing to a leader who's government and system of operation his organization sought to overthrow?


The Honorable Elijah Muhammad was no lover of JFK.

Prudence required that he navigate through this period of mourning with great care. The Nation Of Islam was at a critical juncture in it's development. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad had already demonstrated great success in the world of commerce and this success began to translate into the recruitment of middle class blacks...Black professionals...

The Honorable Elijah Muhammad consistently sought the aid of the Black intelligentsia. The educated and professional class of blacks were reluctantly beginning to move into the ranks of the NOI., The lure of success was great, and those seeking opportunity for advancement were dawning upon the idea of building a separate system for to facilitate their upward motion. These blacks were not your garden variety nationalists, thus they could easily be soured by public statements praising the death of a man who appeared to do more for blacks than most others of that time...

Minister Farrakhan employed a similiar strategy as it relates to the Clinton Administration.

The Honorable Elijah Muhammad was simply being wise...And history demostrates that his appprehension was well placed. The media jumped all over Malcolm's statements, and there was a public uproar against the Nation due to the comments made by Malcolm...His statement was a set back for the NOI.



Kai
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:

The media jumped all over Malcolm's statements, and there was a public uproar against the Nation due to the comments made by Malcolm...His statement was a set back for the NOI.


That may be true, but within the context of all of the things that Malcolm and the Nation said about America, the "chickens come home to roost" statement hardly seemed "over the top". In fact, it seems quite tame and restrained.

For reference, here is a link to the speech: God's Judgement of White America (The Chickens Come Home to Roost) link
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:

The media jumped all over Malcolm's statements, and there was a public uproar against the Nation due to the comments made by Malcolm...His statement was a set back for the NOI.


That may be true, but within the context of all of the things that Malcolm and the Nation said about America, the "chickens come home to roost" statement hardly seemed "over the top". In fact, it seems quite tame and restrained.


The media response was over the top... it is simple to foresee....
Last edited {1}
Peace.....



quote:
That may be true, but within the context of all of the things that Malcolm and the Nation said about America, the "chickens come home to roost" statement hardly seemed "over the top". In fact, it seems quite tame and restrained.

For reference, here is a link to the speech: God's Judgement of White America (The Chickens Come Home to Roost) link


It was the timing.

Look at the response of Minister Farraklhan after 9/11. You will not find any of the Nation's ministers saying a word about it..Nothing..Not right after the event...

Malcolm's timing was off...


Kai
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:

Malcolm's timing was off...



Could a deeper rift between The Nation/Elijah Muhammad and MX be the more profound reason and the actual words/timing more of a "cover" or excuse to further define that rift?
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:
It doesn't make sense, because after the silent treatment, Malcolm was let go of the Nation, from what I've been told or read.


I watched a biography on Malcolm X recently, and the understanding I got from it was that Malcolm and the NOI's breakup were a culmination of things that happened around the same time. In addition to Malcolm going against the order to not speak publicly about JFK's assassination there was the fact that Malcolm became very disheartened when he found out that Elijah Muhammad had fathered several illegitimate children, as well as a rift fostered mostly by jealously between him and Minister Farrakhan, who had taken Malcolm's place as Elijah Muhammad's 'right-hand man'. Coupled with this was the fact that Malcolm's belief's were changing and created an internal struggle for him. Although he was booted out, in some ways, he wanted to leave, although he probably never would have done so on his own. He was very conflicted about all of this.

While that biography did answer many of my questions, the one I was left with at the end was that although Minister Farrakhan has always denied any involvement by him or the NOI in Malcolm's assassination, no one disputes the fact that he was shot by members of the NOI. Confused Not ex-members, or some renegade group of members ... but men who belonged to the organization at the time of the shooting. And if no order was given to them to do such a thing, what would make them do that on their own? Confused
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
the fact that Malcolm became very disheartened when he found out that Elijah Muhammad had fathered several illegitimate children,


They were his wives.... His first wife accepted them as wives.... The women themselves have publicly asserted themselves as his wives... they were known throughout the NOI as his wives... and Malcolm accepted them as his wives.... and defended The Honorable Elijah Muhammad and his wives....

Malcolm had no problem with polygamy as he accepted the polygamy of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who had at least nine wives with one reported to be as young as eleven.... surely 19 year old secretaries did not truly rile him...

Illigitimacy is a hypocritical term assigned by a licentious nation that supports adultery ... until the women decide that they both wish to be taken as wives... then the husband is labeled a criminal.... as long as he is an adulterer his only judge is his wife who may leave him... but if she accepts him and another wife then he is a criminal.... if she accepts her husband and knows that he sleeps around and takes care of another woman and has children with her but does NOT call her a wife, well then he's still a law abiding citizen...


quote:
as well as a rift fostered mostly by jealously between him and Minister Farrakhan, who had taken Malcolm's place as Elijah Muhammad's 'right-hand man'.


Minister Farrakhan enjoyed NO WHERE NEAR the status of Malcolm while Malcolm was alive... Minister Farrakhan came into real power long after the death of Malcolm and then only briefly .... up until then Minister Farrakhan function as and was seen as a student of Malcolm X...

quote:
Coupled with this was the fact that Malcolm's belief's were changing and created an internal struggle for him.


Malcolm knew that there were Ministers who were jealous of him .... this coupled with the government's plan to EXACERBATE these tensions.... and on top of this Malcolm's feelings that The Honorable Elijah Muhammad did not protect him from these other minister's made Malcolm leave....

Only after Malcolm left did he decide to change and utilize the "secretary" spin and use this as a way to tear down the image of The Honorable Elijah Muhammad and the Nation...

A Nation whose mood of ire against those who slander it was cultivated by Malcolm...

quote:
Although he was booted out,


He was not booted out... He was silenced.... along with all other ministers.... Malcolm left on his own accord....

quote:
in some ways, he wanted to leave,
Yes... when he couldn't get his way in a system he set up to protect themselves against people who become vengeful...

quote:
although he probably never would have done so on his own. He was very conflicted about all of this.


He simply did not want to be challenged... Malcolm tells a good sob story.... but there are many inconsistencies even in his book... including where he states arriving for the first time among arabs "discovering" white folx are nice.... using this as a set up to say he realized finally true brotherhood... but failing to remember that he wrote in the beginning chapters of The Honorable Elijah Muhammad sending him to Mecca on missions for the Nation several times before... He not only saw arabs before this... but sat down with them... drank coffee, discussed Islam before.... this wasn't new...

Malcolm was no saint... but even if he didn't write mistakes like that... it is documented...

quote:
While that biography did answer many of my questions,


Malcolm's is one man's story... and the easier to pull the heart strings of those who do not like their beliefs/faith traditions challenged...

quote:
the one I was left with at the end was that although Minister Farrakhan has always denied any involvement by him or the NOI in Malcolm's assassination, no one disputes the fact that he was shot by members of the NOI. Confused Not ex-members, or some renegade group of members ... but men who belonged to the organization at the time of the shooting. And if no order was given to them to do such a thing, what would make them do that on their own? Confused


Sigh...

this has already been answered....
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
He simply did not want to be challenged... Malcolm tells a good sob story.... but there are many inconsistencies even in his book... including where he states arriving for the first time among arabs "discovering" white folx are nice.... using this as a set up to say he realized finally true brotherhood... but failing to remember that he wrote in the beginning chapters of The Honorable Elijah Muhammad sending him to Mecca on missions for the Nation several times before... He not only saw arabs before this... but sat down with them... drank coffee, discussed Islam before.... this wasn't new...
[QUOTE]While that biography did answer many of my questions,

Malcolm does not say that the Hajj was his first time meeting Arabs. It is my recollection that he states that it was on the Hajj that he met Muslims who had blond hair and blue eyes. He did not say that all white folks where great (or nice in your words) but rather, that race was not a sufficient lens by which to ascertain ones nature. Another way of saying this is that he rejected the NOI's anthropology and ontology.

What I find fascinating was that Elijah Muhammad had also participated in the Hajj, and probably would have witnessed a similar racial diversity participating in the pilgrimage as Malcolm. I am not aware (nor have I to date searched for such) documentation where he reflects upon such an experience.

It is certainly the case that Malcolm was a man with human foibles. One of the things that I have faulted him for in the book is his accounts of traveling on the continent and being entertained by persons who where essentially dictators, but not commenting on it, at least in public. On the other hand, it was the case that this was the period where European colonialism was coming to an end in Africa, and the presence of black government officials, even in the face of the brutality of some of these regimes, was an issue he probably hoped would eventually be resolved.

A side note, '63 was a chaotic year for the Nation in general. Another charismatic son - especially with respect to young black men in NYC - Clarence 13X would leave and eventually found the Nation of Gods and Earths, commonly known as the Five Percent Nation or Five Percenters.
Peace....


quote:
Could a deeper rift between The Nation/Elijah Muhammad and MX be the more profound reason and the actual words/timing more of a "cover" or excuse to further define that rift?


I think any Minister in the NOI would have been treated in the same fashion if they would have been found in violation of an order coming from The Honorable Elijah Muhammad. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad put his own son, Imam Warith Deen Muhammad, out of the ranks for violating the NOI rules.

Malcolm was not supposed to receive special treatment. Malcolm himself was a strict disciplinarian. He was not someone who believed in violating the rules..Those who read his autobiography remember that Malcolm was never late, he always kept his word, and he was the kind of soldier which other brothers aspired to become..Malcolm's choice must have been conscious..And the action of The Honorable Elijah Muhammad in response must have been anticipated...



Kai
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:

The media jumped all over Malcolm's statements, and there was a public uproar against the Nation due to the comments made by Malcolm...His statement was a set back for the NOI.


That may be true, but within the context of all of the things that Malcolm and the Nation said about America, the "chickens come home to roost" statement hardly seemed "over the top". In fact, it seems quite tame and restrained.

For reference, here is a link to the speech: God's Judgement of White America (The Chickens Come Home to Roost) link


That was exactly or almost exactly what I mentioned in my first post in this thread.
quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
He simply did not want to be challenged... Malcolm tells a good sob story.... but there are many inconsistencies even in his book... including where he states arriving for the first time among arabs "discovering" white folx are nice.... using this as a set up to say he realized finally true brotherhood... but failing to remember that he wrote in the beginning chapters of The Honorable Elijah Muhammad sending him to Mecca on missions for the Nation several times before... He not only saw arabs before this... but sat down with them... drank coffee, discussed Islam before.... this wasn't new...
[QUOTE]While that biography did answer many of my questions,

Malcolm does not say that the Hajj was his first time meeting Arabs. It is my recollection that he states that it was on the Hajj that he met Muslims who had blond hair and blue eyes. He did not say that all white folks where great (or nice in your words) but rather, that race was not a sufficient lens by which to ascertain ones nature. Another way of saying this is that he rejected the NOI's anthropology and ontology.

What I find fascinating was that Elijah Muhammad had also participated in the Hajj, and probably would have witnessed a similar racial diversity participating in the pilgrimage as Malcolm. I am not aware (nor have I to date searched for such) documentation where he reflects upon such an experience.

It is certainly the case that Malcolm was a man with human foibles. One of the things that I have faulted him for in the book is his accounts of traveling on the continent and being entertained by persons who where essentially dictators, but not commenting on it, at least in public. On the other hand, it was the case that this was the period where European colonialism was coming to an end in Africa, and the presence of black government officials, even in the face of the brutality of some of these regimes, was an issue he probably hoped would eventually be resolved.

A side note, '63 was a chaotic year for the Nation in general. Another charismatic son - especially with respect to young black men in NYC - Clarence 13X would leave and eventually found the Nation of Gods and Earths, commonly known as the Five Percent Nation or Five Percenters.


Now that was another question I wanted to ask also: Did Elijah Muhammad and/or other NOI members participate in the Hajj in Mecca? And if so, was if before or after Malcolm left the NOI?
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
Of Course I read it, you asked how he was perceived by others in the NOI and our personal feelings... if I'd known you'd wanted a comparative summary I wouldn't have answered...



Roll Eyes
No one asked you for a "comparative summary"... I cited his autobio as a reference, which is one of the few references that I have of the man, and a discepency that I wanted clarification on...
Saracen, you did not give your personal view of Malcom X... post NOI...What do you think of him now?
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
Peace....

I have a question for those who love the post NOI Malcolm...

What did Malcolm do in the ONE year he lived outside of the NOI to earn so much love and admiration?

Malcoplm left the NOI officially in 1964, he was assasinated in Feb 1965....What did he accomplish?


Kai
Based on what I know, he grew in perspective... His view of Islam changed from that of NOI to that of a world perspective... Don't get me wrong , I most certainly know that the NOI is far more worldy than is described in the media, but it's base is primarily here in the u.s... it's functionality is focused on African americans... (feel free to correct me if I am off base - as I am not a Muslim)

What really attracted me to Brother Malcolm was his fearlessness in the face of adversity... His ability to answer every challenge that was placed before him... his ability to articulate his thoughts clearly and concisely... his commitment to our people... Both when was in the NOI and after he left...
quote:
Originally posted by AudioGuy:
Based on what I know, he grew in perspective... His view of Islam changed from that of NOI to that of a world perspective.


tfro

There was an honesty about his personal growth and evolution that I really appreciated. He was willing to admit that his previous views had changed and was willing to change with them in an attempt to follow what he believed was the truth ... as opposed to just sticking with the doctrine of the religion no matter what. That's so rare.

Also, he made himself an example of what he preached after he left the NOI. I don't see how he could have done that if he had stayed.
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

quote:

Originally posted by AudioGuy:
Based on what I know, he grew in perspective... His view of Islam changed from that of NOI to that of a world perspective.


There was an honesty about his personal growth and evolution that I really appreciated.


Malcolm's worldview "grew"... this subtly implies "improves".... which implies "better"...

before I address this sentiment expressed by ER, AG and others... will someone explain their view of the difference? and the progression of "growth"? What view did he end up with that is a growth from the original?
Peace.....



quote:
Saracen, you did not give your personal view of Malcom X... post NOI...What do you think of him now?


I think Malcolm was a great thinker... A brilliant mind. Malcolm helped to define the Ministry in the Nation Of Islam. His sharp delivery was the standard for many others...

I see my brother as a warrior who died too soon...

Every soldidr in the NOi can identify with him on some level. There are hundreds of thousands of ex hoodlums who have redeemed themselves by the power of the this work. Most of us are fortunate enough not to have been tested like malcolm was tested. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad intentionally tested brother malcolm to see what was buried beneath the surface of this man..He had to test him because Malcolm was in line to take charge of the NOi in the event of The Honorable Elijah Muhammad's departure...Every teacher must examine their student...For those who have acheived degrees in a field it is known that a rigorous trial awaits each elevation...

Malcolm was tried hard..His turning away became a lesson for others who would tried later...Including Minister Farrakhan.



quote:
Based on what I know, he grew in perspective... His view of Islam changed from that of NOI to that of a world perspective... Don't get me wrong , I most certainly know that the NOI is far more worldy than is described in the media, but it's base is primarily here in the u.s... it's functionality is focused on African americans... (feel free to correct me if I am off base - as I am not a Muslim)



I think that it is biased to say that Malcolm "grew" in his perspective. If there was a change in his view, it was a change toward something that he was already thoroughly exposed to prior to leaving the NOI. Orthodox Islam was not a new idea to men like Malcolm. Malcolm was quite aware of the position of the Orthodox world as it related to the Teachings presented by Messenger Muhammad.

What I think that many students of Malcolm's history fail to realize is that Malcolm may not have changed in his view as much as others would like to think...Malcolm was given the "X" as most others believers, however, after the Hajj he took on the name "Malik Shabazz" The name "Shabazz" is not a name worn by the Orthodox muslim. "Shabazz" is almost specifically the nomenclature of the NOI.

Malcolm's new name was tied to a very relevant person within the Nation Of Islam's doctrine.

We are taught that Shabazz was a scientist who lived in the ancient world who believed that the human being could be improved by exposure to greater difficulties. Shabazz's view was not accepted by his colleagues in the Asiatic world. Shabazz decided to leave the community with a portion of the population of the holy land, and build a new community reflecting his methodology for improvement of the human condition.

The Arabic name "Malik" means Master...Malcolm did not just give himself any name..He took on what we in the NOi call " A big name" which means he took on the title "Master" which is what we call Wallace Fard Muhammad, the founder of the NOi in the West.

The Honorable Elijah Muhammad told others after the departure of Malcolm that he "taught Malcolm too much prophecy"..Malcolm knew that in the future someone out of the ranks would lead a portion of the believers into an orthodox view, however malcolm was not fully aware of the process, however he ventured into this role anyway....

Malcolm made a strategic mistake. he failed to understand the determination of the enemy..he had never faced off with the government of America..His own admission proved that he was not prepared for what he encountered. There are many who believe that Malcolm was making his way back to the NOI..However, before this could be accomplish he was assasinated...

Despite the fact that the FBI has admitted to wiretapping Malcolm and placing agentsamong his security, despite the fact that J Edgar Hoover named malcolm as a target for the COINTELPRO, despite the fact that Malcolm himself publically excused the NOI of previous attempts on his life, and stated that He knew that bigger forces were behind the attempts, despite the fact that Malcolm's securty which was infiltrated by the FBI was the only ones to know that there would not be a gun check at the door, people still blame the Nation for the assasination...This seems like a belief that others are simply unwilling to let go because it makes them comfortable..



Kai
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
Malcolm's worldview "grew"... this subtly implies "improves".... which implies "better"...

before I address this sentiment expressed by ER, AG and others... will someone explain their view of the difference? and the progression of "growth"? What view did he end up with that is a growth from the original?
I am not sure what difference you are looking for, but if you know something more or different than what you knew previously... then you have grown... Nothing more, nothing less...
quote:
Originally posted by AudioGuy:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
Malcolm's worldview "grew"... this subtly implies "improves".... which implies "better"...

before I address this sentiment expressed by ER, AG and others... will someone explain their view of the difference? and the progression of "growth"? What view did he end up with that is a growth from the original?
I am not sure what difference you are looking for, but if you know something more or different than what you knew previously... then you have grown... Nothing more, nothing less...


Okay.... what is the "more" you are referring to?

more than what? why use the term "growth" if you are not referring to what ER said as an "evolution"?
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
I think Malcolm was a great thinker... A brilliant mind. Malcolm helped to define the Ministry in the Nation Of Islam. His sharp delivery was the standard for many others...

I see my brother as a warrior who died too soon...

Every soldidr in the NOi can identify with him on some level. There are hundreds of thousands of ex hoodlums who have redeemed themselves by the power of the this work. Most of us are fortunate enough not to have been tested like malcolm was tested. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad intentionally tested brother malcolm to see what was buried beneath the surface of this man..He had to test him because Malcolm was in line to take charge of the NOi in the event of The Honorable Elijah Muhammad's departure...Every teacher must examine their student...For those who have acheived degrees in a field it is known that a rigorous trial awaits each elevation...

Malcolm was tried hard..His turning away became a lesson for others who would tried later...Including Minister Farrakhan.
That... was exactly what I was looking for... Every other time I have posed the question to anyone in the NOI I have either gotten no response at all or some 2-3 word amswer... I appreciate your honesty...



quote:
I think that it is biased to say that Malcolm "grew" in his perspective. If there was a change in his view, it was a change toward something that he was already thoroughly exposed to prior to leaving the NOI. Orthodox Islam was not a new idea to men like Malcolm. Malcolm was quite aware of the position of the Orthodox world as it related to the Teachings presented by Messenger Muhammad.
There is no doubt that I am biased on this subject as I am 1. not a Muslim and never have been 2. subject to the same media "influence" that the rest of the world is subject to and as a result, 3. ignorant to perspectives which you and other members possess... Having said all of that, I started to this thread to get personal perspectives and to "fill in the gaps"... not to attack, malign or influence... I ask questions because I do not know... I make statements on the basis of what I do know... no one should take any of this personal...

quote:
What I think that many students of Malcolm's history fail to realize is that Malcolm may not have changed in his view as much as others would like to think...Malcolm was given the "X" as most others believers, however, after the Hajj he took on the name "Malik Shabazz" The name "Shabazz" is not a name worn by the Orthodox muslim. "Shabazz" is almost specifically the nomenclature of the NOI.
I ask you Saracen do you think that Malcolm's view changed after he went on his hajj and left the NOI?

quote:
Despite the fact that the FBI has admitted to wiretapping Malcolm and placing agentsamong his security, despite the fact that J Edgar Hoover named malcolm as a target for the COINTELPRO, despite the fact that Malcolm himself publically excused the NOI of previous attempts on his life, and stated that He knew that bigger forces were behind the attempts, despite the fact that Malcolm's securty which was infiltrated by the FBI was the only ones to know that there would not be a gun check at the door, people still blame the Nation for the assasination...This seems like a belief that others are simply unwilling to let go because it makes them comfortable..
Was he not assassinated by members of the NOI? I ask because this is the "conventional wisdom"...
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:

Okay.... what is the "more" you are referring to?

more than what? why use the term "growth" if you are not referring to what ER said as an "evolution"?
quote:
I am not sure what difference you are looking for, but if you know something more or different than what you knew previously... then you have grown... Nothing more, nothing less...
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
While that biography did answer many of my questions, the one I was left with at the end was that although Minister Farrakhan has always denied any involvement by him or the NOI in Malcolm's assassination, no one disputes the fact that he was shot by members of the NOI. Confused Not ex-members, or some renegade group of members ... but men who belonged to the organization at the time of the shooting. And if no order was given to them to do such a thing, what would make them do that on their own? Confused


Paid government infultrators...a.k.a. agents. Like the many agents who infiltrated all kinds of groups under COINTELPRO and caused all kinds of confusion and participated in all kinds of misdeeds that regular memebers didn't/wouldn't usually do.

quote:

Originally by Saracen:
Despite the fact that the FBI has admitted to wiretapping Malcolm and placing agentsamong his security, despite the fact that J Edgar Hoover named malcolm as a target for the COINTELPRO, despite the fact that Malcolm himself publically excused the NOI of previous attempts on his life, and stated that He knew that bigger forces were behind the attempts, despite the fact that Malcolm's securty which was infiltrated by the FBI was the only ones to know that there would not be a gun check at the door, people still blame the Nation for the assasination...This seems like a belief that others are simply unwilling to let go because it makes them comfortable..


I'll never understand why this is the 'conventional wisdom' of so many of our people. Without even knowing the specifics you mentioned above, wouldn't the 'times' alone be enough to make us take a wild guess that they were agents who infultrated? I remember taking this wild leap of the imagination as a teenager...
Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
Paid government infultrators...a.k.a. agents. Like the many agents who infiltrated all kinds of groups under COINTELPRO and caused all kinds of confusion and participated in all kinds of misdeeds that regular memebers didn't/wouldn't usually do.


I'll never understand why this is the 'conventional wisdom' of so many of our people. Without even knowing the specifics you mentioned above, wouldn't the 'times' alone be enough to make us take a wild guess that they were agents who infultrated? I remember taking this wild leap of the imagination as a teenager...
Roll Eyes


Thank you for taking the time to answer, Oshun Auset. Smile

Unfortunately, the misinformed "conventional wisdom" that so many of us have comes from not being able to get simple, direct answers to counteract all the misinformation that we have received in the past from various other (and obviously wrong) sources. I asked that question to get an answer from someone I thought should know better than I. However, the prior *sigh* I had received as an answer just didn't do that for me. Roll Eyes

The only way to correct the wrongness of a question is by receiving a correcting answer to it. You corrected what was wrong about what I thought I knew. Now I know things I didn't know before ... and I can put away the "conventional wisdom" and replace it with the truth.
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

Thank you for taking the time to answer, Oshun Auset. Smile

Unfortunately, the misinformed "conventional wisdom" that so many of us have comes from not being able to get simple, direct answers to counteract all the misinformation that we have received in the past from various other (and obviously wrong) sources. I asked that question to get an answer from someone I thought should know better than I. However, the prior *sigh* I had received as an answer just didn't do that for me. Roll Eyes


I suppose not everyone will speak in a way that is pleasing to all...

the most important thing is to get correct information where you can... that way there will be no need to roll our eyes when we can't get what we want our way.... we can simply be grateful we've become enlightened...

and in the future... those who are not received as well.. will know to be more simplistic and direct in their writings... because not everyone comes from the same base of knowledge...

sometimes one's frustrations becomes food for enlightenment for others...

~blessings~

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