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By the power invested in me as Host of AA.org - every Member here now is a full-fledged board member of the Governing Universal Council. The GWC was created at the fall of the UN when they couldn't get their act together on Iraq. The GWC has been tasked with "running shit" on earth! wink

Among all its wonders, the Middle East has been a tense/volatile/violent area for millenia. The GWC has decided, in its splendor, to fix that.

What do we do? How do we alleviate tension? How do we create peace? What has to happen for that region to "work"?

A couple of ground rules - you must think like the "Lord of the Universe" that each of you are. Don't get caught up in the tactics at this point. Also - think about the region in general and not about any particular country or cause. Be the statesperson that you are! smile

Let's solve this problem!


Onward and Upward!

© MBM

Original Post
Two quick thoughts to quick start this:

  • What about turning large portions of Israel and the Palestinian territory over to the UN for 50 years or so? This creates a defined, longer term, 'cooling off' period that might allow the Israeli and Palestinian people to actually build economic and social links between them that might give long-term peace a chance.

    Both nations would reject this becuase it would mean them giving up control in the short term. This might just be the cost of their petulant behavior though. How long should the U.S. and the world put up with their destabilizing influence in a crucial part of the world? Since they've not shown an ability to create peace, perhaps 'the world' should step in.

  • Let's then permanently turn Jerusalem (and perhaps other contested Holy areas)into a depoliticized, Vatican-like/District of Columbia-like, enitity devoid of any specific Israeli or Palestinian control, and protected for any and all to enjoy. If the two children can't play with the ball nicely, let's just remove the ball.

    What do you think? If the Isareali-Palestinian conflict were resolved, what impact do you think it would have on broader U.S. - Arab relations?


    Onward and Upward!
  • See MBM,
    It's not as much fun for people when you don't allow us to be immature; that's why you have to try to "quickstart" this thread.
    For what it's worth, I would point out that you assume that there can be a resolution to the Middle East conflict, and that that resolution could be based on land. But over the last couple of weeks, tensions have been brewing over water rather than land. I suspect that these differences that we see, therefore, are based on deeper, and more fundamental, roots, ie. religion, and world-view, and thus any solution that "the world" proposes would be tantamount to covering an infection with a Band-aid, without also treating the underlying wound.
    Speaking of "the world," I would respectfully (so as not to have another one of my posts deleted!) point out, that Jews have little faith in a "world" that blissfully allowed a third of a people to be marched off to their death less than one short century ago. They tend to follow the Bush approach of acting unilaterally to leaving their future, even their very survival, to the whims of such a "world."
    Peace
    quote:
    Originally posted by john doe:

    It's not as much fun for people when you don't allow us to be immature; that's why you have to try to "quickstart" this thread.


    Friend, I'm not interested in off-topic pissing matches. I am interested in constructive debate and solutions. You've got great insight. I wanted to cut through the BS and get to it.

    quote:
    For what it's worth, I would point out that you assume that there can be a resolution to the Middle East conflict, and that that resolution could be based on land.


    I have to believe that peace can be achieved. I have to believe that mankind can overcome its shortcomings. It would be tough to get out of bed in the morning otherwise.

    quote:
    I suspect that these differences that we see, therefore, are based on deeper, and more fundamental, roots, ie. religion, and world-view, and thus any solution that "the world" proposes would be tantamount to covering an infection with a Band-aid, without also treating the underlying wound.


    I agree 100% re: deeper issues dividing the region. That is precisely why I threw out for discussion the concept of "internationalizing" the area temporarily.

    quote:
    Jews have little faith in a "world" that blissfully allowed a third of a people to be marched off to their death less than one short century ago.


    I agree. Perhaps if the U.S. (Israel's greatest ally) could show some leadership and vision in the region Israel might be pressured into acting differently.


    Onward and Upward!
    Here's how an Arab would react to your proposals.

    "What about turning large portions of Israel and the Palestinian territory over to the UN for 50 years or so?"

    Palestinians are already furious at the estimated 22% of Palestine they've been unjustifyabley left with. For them to sacrifice another 50% would be out of the question.

    "This creates a defined, longer term, 'cooling off' period that might allow the Israeli and Palestinian people to actually build economic and social links between them that might give long-term peace a chance."

    I seriously doubt that will ever happen. What Westerners must comprehend is the attachment to this land that Palestinians have. For their land to be eradicted or be dominated by another ethnic group is exetremely unacceptable, as I am sure it is unacceptable to anyone else. After the abduction of Palestinian land, the Jews in the Arab world are viewed negatively, I strongly doubt any prospects for peace are present here.

    "Since they've not shown an ability to create peace, perhaps 'the world' should step in."

    US intervention proved terrible consequences for the US itself. If anything, the region should just be left to reconcile differences solely. Should war be the result, then let it be. It will ultimately resolve this.

    "Let's then permanently turn Jerusalem (and perhaps other contested Holy areas)into a depoliticized, Vatican-like/District of Columbia-like, enitity devoid of any specific Israeli or Palestinian control, and protected for any and all to enjoy. If the two children can't play with the ball nicely, let's just remove the ball."

    Also a counterproductive move. The Al-Aqsa mosque is one of the most holiest sites in Islam. It possesses an immense amount of history. For this to be temporarily removed would only reap more instability in the region. Also, the Jews wouldn't want to lose their wailing wall.

    My proposal: WAR. It's the ONLY answer.

    -----------------------------------

    "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. " Quran 5:3

    "In their wars of conquest however, the Muslims exhibited a degree of toleration that puts many Christian civilizations to shame"
    -E. Alexander Powell

    "The Muhammaden Law which is binding on all from the crowned head to the mearest subject is a law interwoven with a system of the wisest, the most learned and the most enlightened jurispudence in the world."
    -Edmund Burke

    "While Christianity has moved towards a social gospel in recent years, Islam has always been a social gospel"
    -A. J. Toynbee

    "As a religion, the Mohommadian religion, it must be confessed, is more suited to Africa than is the Christian religion, indeed, I would say it is more suited to the world as a whole."
    -Lancelot Lawton

    "It will thus be seen, that a final and complete text of the Qura'an was prepared within twenty years after the death (AD 632) of Muhammad, and that this has remained the same, without any change, or alteration by enthusiasts, translators, or interpolators, up to the present time. It is to be regretted that the same cannot be said of all the books of the Old and New Testaments"
    -F. F. Arbuthnot

    "Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That's a good religion."
    Malcolm X 1965 on Islam

    "It (Qura
    ArabianQueen: "My proposal: WAR. It's the ONLY answer.

    AQ... There has already been two wars in the past 35 years... 1967 and 1972...

    Israel WON both wars...

    So I can only assume by your own "proposal" that Israel wins ALL of the territory!!!...

    Or do you feel that they should keep on fighting until the results are favorable to your liking???...

    What if there is a third war and Israel wins again... Will you accept Israel's total control via the win???... Something tells me NO!!!...

    How many wars must Israel win in order to live in peace???

    .

    ------------------------------
    The Liberal/Progressive mantra: "We are the champions of diversity and opinions... We tolerate all beliefs, all religions, and all customs.......... Unless they disagree with ours!"
    I don't agree with your statement, you said:

    quote:
    Israel might be pressured into acting differently.


    How so? What should the Israelis do differently?

    What about the Palestinians should they be pressured to stop the tactics that halt any chance for peace?

    My Humble Opinion is as follows

    I think much of the burden is on the Palestinians who brainwash and send their own children to murder innocent people in God's name by exploding themselves. If they do not have enough grace to stop the wonton killing of innocent people then peace will never be achieved. The vicious cycle will continue, the suicide bombers take the offense and kill innocent people, the Israelis kill more Palestinians with their guns and tanks in defense in which innocent Palestinians are killed, the Islamic militants take revenge and another cycle begins. When the Israelis try to make peace with offers of land and self-autonomy for the Palestinians the Islamic militants send more suicide bombers which kills any chance for peace. Any time there is a peace process you can count on suicide bombers to sabotage it.

    To me the suicide killings must stop first for peace to have a chance but Islamic Militants will not have it. The Palestinians must show that they have it in them to be peaceable.

    It's not just the Palestinians against the Jews but it's an Arab\Islamic war against Christians and Western values. These are a people who hate Christians, hate Jews, hate secularism, and hate the equality of women, which are taught by their faith! Excluding peaceable Muslims,there is a worldwide aggression by Extremist Muslims, it's not about the land in Palestine but about what many Muslims are being taught.

    I was watching the BBC the other night and a Muslim man was on the panel that was complaining that militants of his faith are poisoning Islam and who have usurped the true meaning of Islam. He fears that Militants are defining his faith in how non-Muslims view Islam. I say they are doing a good job of it. He hopes that good Muslims will speak out against those who sanction the indiscriminate killing and armed aggression "AROUND THE WORLD", a Muslim's own words.

    I know that there are good Muslims who are deeply troubled by 9-11, who react in horror to the suicide-murderers, who do not agree with the indiscriminate killing of Christians, Jews and Westerners, who would never think to cut off the head of reporter Daniel Pearl after making him say, "I am a Jew and my mother is a Jew.", Daniel Pearl's only sin was that he was a Jew!

    Anti-Semitism has long been a factor in the fate of Jews, but I think in the Middle East, it is rooted so deeply into Arab\Muslim culture, in Middle East society, and in the hearts of its people that it truly is beyond our comprehension in America.

    I've been listening to Muslim sermons delivered to Palestinians in Lebanon and I must tell you the Hate that is preached from Muslim Activists and Muslim Holy leaders is appalling and frightening. From what I hear in the sermons, they believe that God is directing and blessing their actions. The religious points Palestinians and many Muslim parents teach their children are child abuse in my estimation.

    I saw a clip on TV of a 3-4 year old Saudi girl say the most hateful things about Jews, she said that Jews were dogs, she is already brainwashed by her parents to hate Jews and she lives in Saudi in what it looked like in luxury. I don't know if any of you saw that clip but it gave a lot of insight on the deep seated hate for Jews by Arabs\Muslims.

    The Palestinians send their kids to kill innocent people then the Israelis send their tanks to kill many Palestinians. Do you expect the Israelis to sit by and let bombers have their way, of course not, but it seems to me that some people expect the Israelis to trust the Palestinians to live next to them when they have not shown that they can be peaceable.

    What would your attitude be if you were in the Israelis situation?

    Here is my plan.

    1. Get a responsible Palestinian leader, you talk about leadership it seems to me Arafat is bent on revenge and the complete removal of the Israeli's. Peace is not part of his agenda. He has to GO!
    He was given a great deal when Clinton was in office and he turned it down. That could have been a great start toward Peace but Arafat knows once he signs a peace agreement with Israel HE WILL BE KILLED BY HIS OWN PEOPLE. He does not have the guts for peace, because he wants to live.

    2. All Militant groups who encourage suicide bombings must be stopped and dismantled.

    That would be a good start.

    What would you have Israel do? I think they really have no choice but to react when Palestinians send suicide bombers to kill innocent people. The problem there is NOT ABOUT LAND, it's about religion being exploited to appease hate being taught by Islamic Extremists.

    [This message was edited by JuneBug on September 17, 2002 at 01:34 PM.]
    quote:
    Originally posted by ArabianQueen:
    Here's how an Arab would react to your proposals.
    BOMBS AWAY!!! SORRY, MBM, I COULDN'T RESIST.
    "What about turning large portions of Israel and the Palestinian territory over to the UN for 50 years or so?"
    AFTER MY UNFORTUNATE OUTBURST ABOVE, I WILL TRY TO BE TOTALLY AGREEABLE SO AS NOT TO BE CENSORED AGAIN.
    Palestinians are already furious at the estimated 22% of Palestine they've been unjustifyabley left with. For them to sacrifice another 50% would be out of the question.
    I COULDN'T AGREE WITH YOU MORE, AQ. SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT ZIONIST EXPANSION...WE MUST NIP IT IN THE BUD. OF COURSE, RIGHT NOW THE ARABS HAVE 23 COUNTRIES, AND THE JEWS HAVE ONLY ONE, BUT TO PARAPHRASE CONFUSCIOUS, EVERY GREAT IMPERIALIST ENDEAVOR BEGINS WITH ONE STATE.
    "This creates a defined, longer term, 'cooling off' period that might allow the Israeli and Palestinian people to actually build economic and social links between them that might give long-term peace a chance."

    I seriously doubt that will ever happen. What Westerners must comprehend is the attachment to this land that Palestinians have. For their land to be eradicted or be dominated by another ethnic group is exetremely unacceptable, as I am sure it is unacceptable to anyone else.
    AGAIN, SISTER, I COULDN'T AGREE WITH YOU MORE. THE ARABS DON'T HAVE ENOUGH LAND, AND THE JEWS HAVE TOO MUCH. OF COURSE, THE ZIONISTS WILL TRY TO CONFUSE US WITH FACTS, AS IS THEIR WONT, BUT THE FACT REMAINS THAT EVEN THOUGH ARABS RULE A LAND MASS TWICE THE SIZE OF AMERIKKKA, AND THE JEWS RULE A LAND THE SIZE OF NEW JERSEY, WE MUST NEVER FORGET THAT FROM A LAND MASS THE SIZE OF THE GARDEN STATE GREAT EMPIRES CAN GROW; JUST ASK TONY SOPRANO!
    After the abduction of Palestinian land, the Jews in the Arab world are viewed negatively, I strongly doubt any prospects for peace are present here.
    TRUE, AGAIN. THE ONLY REASON THAT THE ARABS HATE THE JEWS IS BECAUSE OF THE LAND THAT THE ZIONISTS STOLE. WHATEVER YOU DO, AQ, DON'T DO RESEARCH IN A ZIONIST-CONTROLLED ENCYCLOPEDIA WHERE YOU MIGHT LEARN THAT AFTER THE ISRAELI WAR OF INDEPENDENCE 800,000 JEWS WERE KICKED OUT OF ARAB COUNTRIES, AND THEIR LAND WAS CONFISCATED. AND HOW MUCH LAND WAS IT? OH, ABOUT TWICE THE SIZE OF ERETZ YISRAEL.
    "Since they've not shown an ability to create peace, perhaps 'the world' should step in."

    US intervention proved terrible consequences for the US itself.
    HOW ACCURATE...US FOREIGN POLICY THAT ACTUALLY STOOD FOR JUSTICE WAS DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE "EVENTS" OF SEPTEMBER 11TH. AS THE GREAT NEVILLE CHAMBERLAIN MIGHT SAY, THE SOONER AMERIKKKA APPEASES THE PEACE-LOVING ARABS, ("ISLAM" DOES, AFTER ALL, MEAN PEACE) THE SOONER WE WILL HAVE PEACE IN OUR TIME.
    If anything, the region should just be left to reconcile differences solely. Should war be the result, then let it be.
    THAT SOUND YOU HERE IS JOHN LENNON ROLLING OVER IN HIS GRAVE.
    It will ultimately resolve this.
    ABSOLUTELY, THE WARS OF 1948, '56, '67, AND '73 WERE JUST TEST RUNS. THIS TIME ISRAELI F-16'S WILL PROVE NO MATCH FOR "PALESTINIAN" SLINGSHOTS.
    "Let's then permanently turn Jerusalem (and perhaps other contested Holy areas)into a depoliticized, Vatican-like/District of Columbia-like, enitity devoid of any specific Israeli or Palestinian control, and protected for any and all to enjoy. If the two children can't play with the ball nicely, let's just remove the ball."

    Also a counterproductive move. The Al-Aqsa mosque is one of the most holiest sites in Islam.
    ABSOLUTELY, AND NICE EVASION OF THE FACT THAT THE WESTERN WALL THAT IS BURIED BENEATH THE MOSQUE IS THE HOLIEST SITE IN JUDAISM. REMEMBER, HALF-TRUTHS ARE OUR FRIEND.
    It possesses an immense amount of history.
    AGAIN, NICE WAY NOT TO MENTION THAT THAT HISTORY INCLUDES THE MUSLIM PRACTICE OF CONQUERING THE HOLY SITES OF OTHER FAITHS, AND BUILDING ON TOP OF THEM, AS WAS RECENTLY ILLUSTRATED BY THE TALIBAN'S DEMOLISHING ANCIENT BUDDHIST SHRINES. APPEARENTLY, "ISLAM" REALLY MEANS "SURRENDER" AND NOT "PEACE," BUT LET'S KEEP THAT OUR LITTLE SECRET SO AS TO PROTECT ISLAM'S GOOD NAME.
    For this to be temporarily removed would only reap more instability in the region.
    A BEAUTIFUL BACK-HANDED THREAT, AQ. IT'S SO MUCH MORE SUBTLE THAN WHEN A MOBSTER TELLS SOMEONE TO DO WHAT HE ASKS, "SO THERE WON'T BE ANY TROUBLE."
    Also, the Jews wouldn't want to lose their wailing wall.
    DON'T MENTION THE JEWS, AQ. THE WORLD REVOLVES AROUND THE ARABS.
    My proposal: WAR. It's the ONLY answer.
    I SURE DO HOPE MBM MAINTAINS HIS DOUBLE STANDARD. OTHERWISE, HOW WILL HE BE ABLE TO DELETE MY CIRCUMLOCUTION WHILE RETAINING YOUR CALL TO VIOLENCE?
    -----------------------------------

    "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. " Quran 5:3

    "In their wars of conquest however, the Muslims exhibited a degree of toleration that puts many Christian civilizations to shame"
    -E. Alexander Powell

    "The Muhammaden Law which is binding on all from the crowned head to the mearest subject is a law interwoven with a system of the wisest, the most learned and the most enlightened jurispudence in the world."
    -Edmund Burke

    "While Christianity has moved towards a social gospel in recent years, Islam has always been a social gospel"
    -A. J. Toynbee

    "As a religion, the Mohommadian religion, it must be confessed, is more suited to Africa than is the Christian religion, indeed, I would say it is more suited to the world as a whole."
    -Lancelot Lawton

    "It will thus be seen, that a final and complete text of the Qura'an was prepared within twenty years after the death (AD 632) of Muhammad, and that this has remained the same, without any change, or alteration by enthusiasts, translators, or interpolators, up to the present time. It is to be regretted that the same cannot be said of all the books of the Old and New Testaments"
    -F. F. Arbuthnot

    "Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That's a good religion."
    Malcolm X 1965 on Islam

    "It (Qura
    OK, MBM, I'll play.....

    1) Jerusalem is to be hallowed and respected by all. It is holy. Not just "holy to Muslims because..." or "holy to Jews because..." or even "holy to Christians because...." It's holiness stands on its own. Period.

    2) There is to be a minimum of 50 miles between "Neighbor Sets". A "Neighbor Set" is to consist of one Muslim family and one Jewish family. The Neighbor Set will locate their homes in the middle of the 50 miles (no fair cheating and moving 49 miles apart!) Nobody else can move within anyone else's 50 mile area. These two families with have to learn to get along, to depend on one another for survival. BTW: No electricity, no running water, no guns, no gasoline or "modern conveniences". Hand tools and horses are OK.

    3) Once an individual Neighbor Set has learned the lessons of respect, cooperation and that they have more similarities than differences, they may be allowed to move next to another Neighbor Set who has also reached that level of cooperation.

    Any other ideas out there from other GWC members?

    "Unless you're sharing what you have, you don't have as much as you think you do."
    OK, how about this...

    There are 23 Arab nations and only 1 Jewish nation...

    Now if these 24 countries were totally under the auspices and laws of the United States then Affirmative Action and Minority Set-Asides would come into affect... And all of you bleeding hearts would be screaming "Justice for the minority"...

    Why, Political Correctness alone would demand that the nation of Israel be allowed to exist, and exist in peace...

    So... Give the Israelis first choice and move the Arabs out...

    After all... The Jews are a minority amongst a super majority...

    Is my solution that much different from the Arab/Palestinian sympathizers???...

    .

    ------------------------------
    The Liberal/Progressive mantra: "We are the champions of diversity and opinions... We tolerate all beliefs, all religions, and all customs.......... Unless they disagree with ours!"

    [This message was edited by Whoopie on September 17, 2002 at 02:48 PM.]
    My understanding of your post was to discuss/propose solutions, not argue about why something won't work.

    I agree that there must be legitimate leaadership in the Middle East; however, that leadership must be chosen by the people, not imposed by "outsiders."

    Therefore, the US and any other nation that desires a resolution should provide financial, humanitatian, and political support to anyone that steps up with a viable plan for the people of the region, not the nation-state. It is not the Palestinian nation-state that is blowing itself up, but rather the people. And I can't believe, regardless what the media is telling us, that these people are killing themselve over borders, per se.

    Maybe I'm being naive, but I hold the belief that the majority of people could care less about borders, especially when their child are being killed by bombs and starvation and their homes are being destroyed. Provide people with a means for providing for the security of themselves and their families and you will see a reduction in the suicide bombings.

    That said, I also believe that the US must revisit its policy regarding Israel. The US must end its silence regarding Israeli aggression. I don't think the US should abandon Israel; however, the US should pressure Israel to act in a manner consistent with the pursuit of peace. If the Israeli government does not want to go where the US wants to lead, than maybe we should tell them go, but don't look for our blessing or backing.

    As long as Israel continues to usurp land (establish colonies, creating buffer zones, or whatever you want to call it), they should expect to be attacked, not because they moved the border, but because they displaced folks that were already there. As long as Israel continues to bull doze building and homes (with people in them), they should expect a response.

    It appears to me to be the Palestinian people reacting to the Israeli government's actions that is the source of the unrest.

    My fear, though, is that the Israeli agenda is vastly different from any US peace agenda. And I don't know how far the state of Israel will go in trying to accomplish its end. Without the backing of the US, would Israel use nukes?
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
    I THINK I UNDERSTOOD MBM'S INTENT; I JUST DIDN'T LIKE IT. I'M HERE FOR FUN; NOT MEANINGFUL DISCUSSION. BUT IT IS DISRESPECTFUL OF ME TO ENTER ANOTHER MAN'S HOME, AND NOT ABIDE BY HIS RULES. PLEASE G-D, THIS POST WILL BE MORE IN KEEPING WITH MBM'S PURPOSE.

    My understanding of your post was to discuss/propose solutions, not argue about why something won't work.
    THE PROBLEM IS, I JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT WILL WORK. IF YOU LOOK AT AQ'S LAST POST, SHE SEEMS ITCHING FOR A FIGHT. IT'S HER WAY OR THE HIGHWAY. HOW DO YOU WORK WITH SOMEONE LIKE HER?
    I agree that there must be legitimate leaadership in the Middle East; however, that leadership must be chosen by the people, not imposed by "outsiders."
    FAIR ENOUGH, BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT OUTSIDERS THEN HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY THAT THEY WILL NOT NEGOTIATE WITH LEADERS OF WHOM THEY DISAPPROVE.
    Therefore, the US and any other nation that desires a resolution should provide financial, humanitatian, and political support to anyone that steps up with a viable plan for the people of the region, not the nation-state. It is not the Palestinian nation-state that is blowing itself up, but rather the people.
    I DON'T KNOW. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE "PALESTINIAN" NATION-STATE IN THE FORM OF THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY IS CERTAINLY SUPPORTING TERRORISM.
    And I can't believe, regardless what the media is telling us, that these people are killing themselve over borders, per se.
    WHAT THEN DO YOU THINK THEIR MOTIVES ARE?
    Maybe I'm being naive, but I hold the belief that the majority of people could care less about borders, especially when their child are being killed by bombs and starvation and their homes are being destroyed. Provide people with a means for providing for the security of themselves and their families and you will see a reduction in the suicide bombings.
    YOU'RE NOT BEING NAIVE; YOU'RE BEING AMERICAN. YOU ASSUME THAT THE PROBLEM IS DUE TO POVERTY, BUT I SUSPECT THAT IF YOU INCREASE WEALTH IN THE REGION, YOU WILL JUST HAVE RICHER TERRORISTS. REMEMBER, 15 OF THE 19 SEPT. 11TH HIJACKERS CAME FROM SAUDI ARABIA, HARDLY A DESTITUTE PLACE. FURTHER, "PALESTINIANS" ARE BY FAR THE WEALTHIEST ARABS OUTSIDE OF THE OIL PRODUCING STATES. YOU'RE PROBABLY SHOCKED BY THAT, BUT RESEARCH IT, AND YOU WILL SEE THAT IT'S TRUE. WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, I REALLY DON'T THINK THAT POVERTY IS THE PROBLEM HERE. I KINDA OF WISH IT WERE THOUGH. I THINK IT WOULD BE EASIER TO FIX.
    That said, I also believe that the US must revisit its policy regarding Israel. The US must end its silence regarding Israeli aggression. I don't think the US should abandon Israel; however, the US should pressure Israel to act in a manner consistent with the pursuit of peace.
    COULD YOU SPECIFY HOW YOU WOULD DO THIS?
    If the Israeli government does not want to go where the US wants to lead, than maybe we should tell them go, but don't look for our blessing or backing.
    AND THEN HOW DO WE NOT APPEAR HYPOCRITICAL AS WE WAGE OUR WAR ON TERRORISM?
    As long as Israel continues to usurp land (establish colonies, creating buffer zones, or whatever you want to call it), they should expect to be attacked, not because they moved the border, but because they displaced folks that were already there.
    AND THE ARABS DISPLACED THE SAME NUMBER OF JEWS IN THE LATE FORTIES AND EARLY FIFTIES. I THINK PEOPLE MUST GET OUT OF THE PAST.
    As long as Israel continues to bull doze building and homes (with people in them), they should expect a response.
    THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN.
    It appears to me to be the Palestinian people reacting to the Israeli government's actions that is the source of the unrest.
    WHY IS IT THAT NO MATTER WHO DOES WHAT, PEOPLE FIND A WAY TO BLAME THE JEWS? FORTUNATELY DALLAS ISN'T A VERY JEWISH CITY, OR THEY'D PROBABLY FIND A WAY TO BLAME THE YIDDEN FOR THE ASSASSINATION OF JFK.
    My fear, though, is that the Israeli agenda is vastly different from any US peace agenda.
    MY FEAR IS THAT THE US AGENDA IS TOO RADICALLY REMOVED FROM THE ARAB ONE.
    And I don't know how far the state of Israel will go in trying to accomplish its end. Without the backing of the US, would Israel use nukes?
    YES, I THINK THAT THEY WOULD.
    /QUOTE]
    My ideas: (based, admittedly on limited understanding and even more limited patience with the nonsense over there):

    1) Give the West Bank to the Palestinians, and end all Israeli settlements there.

    2) Set up an Israeli controlled zone at Western perimeter points to guard against Palestinian attacks from the high altitudes of the West Bank against sensitive areas in Israel down below.

    2A) Any failure on the Palestinians' part to prevent such attacks will automatically mark the end of this plan, and the Israelis will then be free to protect their sovereignty.

    3) Give West jerusalem to Israel, and East Jerusalem to the Palestinians.

    4) Transition the West Bank (minus Israeli perimeter points) into a Palestinian republic. Deny all Palestinians entry into Israel, and vice-versa; including entry between the Two Jerusalems. One day, when they show they can co-exist, these restrictions can be removed. Meantime, wall it off, like Berlin back in the day, if necessary.

    These solutions don't solve all of the problems. But these two sides, especially the extraordinarily short-sighted Palestinians, need to understand that improvements today are better than stagnation today, even if they don't get everything they want. They refuse even to set the stage for future improvements. They want everything now.
    quote:
    Originally posted by Vox:
    My ideas: (based, admittedly on limited understanding and even more limited patience with the nonsense over there):

    1) Give the West Bank to the Palestinians, and end all Israeli settlements there.
    WHY?
    2) Set up an Israeli controlled zone at Western perimeter points to guard against Palestinian attacks from the high altitudes of the West Bank against sensitive areas in Israel down below.

    2A) Any failure on the Palestinians' part to prevent such attacks will automatically mark the end of this plan, and the Israelis will then be free to protect their sovereignty.
    IN THE WORDS OF ABBA EBAN: "THE PALESTINIANS NEVER MISS AN OPPORTUNITY TO MISS AN OPPORTUNITY."
    3) Give West jerusalem to Israel, and East Jerusalem to the Palestinians.
    AGAIN, WHY?
    4) Transition the West Bank (minus Israeli perimeter points) into a Palestinian republic. Deny all Palestinians entry into Israel, and vice-versa; including entry between the Two Jerusalems. One day, when they show they can co-exist, these restrictions can be removed. Meantime, wall it off, like Berlin back in the day, if necessary.

    These solutions don't solve all of the problems. But these two sides, especially the extraordinarily short-sighted Palestinians, need to understand that improvements today are better than stagnation today, even if they don't get everything they want. They refuse even to set the stage for future improvements. They want everything now.
    WHOOPIE

    "AQ... There has already been two wars in the past 35 years... 1967 and 1972...

    Israel WON both wars...

    So I can only assume by your own "proposal" that Israel wins ALL of the territory!!!...

    Or do you feel that they should keep on fighting until the results are favorable to your liking???...

    What if there is a third war and Israel wins again... Will you accept Israel's total control via the win???... Something tells me NO!!!...

    How many wars must Israel win in order to live in peace???"

    Well Whoopie, the Palestinians are still here, still existing anf still suffering. The only answer is if one side was driven out or eradicated. THEN it'll ALL be over.

    JUNEBUG

    So we meet again, I'm glad.

    "I think much of the burden is on the Palestinians who brainwash and send their own children to murder innocent people in God's name by exploding themselves."

    For the last flipping time, PALESTINIANS DO NOT SEND THEIR OWN CHILDREN TO MURDER. The first female suicide bomber had to perpetrate this act BEHIND HER FAMILIES BACK. The majority of families are completely oblivious to this until it actually occurs.

    "The vicious cycle will continue, the suicide bombers take the offense and kill innocent people"

    ASK YOURSELF WHY. Why do you think ANYONE would take their own life like it was cheap and KILL anyone? I have MANY quotes made by your Jewish brethrens who had thier family members killed by suicide bombers and they STILL blame Israel. If THEY can see it, WHY CAN'T YOU?

    "the Israelis kill more Palestinians with their guns and tanks in defense in which innocent Palestinians are killed"

    JuneBug you're right. An 8 year old boy, WHAT A TERRORIST. That rock he's holding might DESTROY the giant tank.

    "When the Israelis try to make peace with offers of land and self-autonomy for the Palestinians the Islamic militants send more suicide bombers which kills any chance for peace."

    Offers of land? Please investigate CLOSER to what Barak had offered in the Camp David talks, instead of depending on the myth, "it was Arafats fault".

    "To me the suicide killings must stop first for peace to have a chance but Islamic Militants will not have it. The Palestinians must show that they have it in them to be peaceable."

    I agree it must stop, for the sake of the suicide bombers themselves. A 16 year old girl bombed herself, people like her need to be rescued. They said they would stop if the illegal occupation was ended. This makes a lot of sense seeing as the suicide bombings didn't commence until the illgal occupation was in place.

    "It's not just the Palestinians against the Jews but it's an Arab\Islamic war against Christians and Western values."

    Let's not forget that about a third of Palestinians ARE christian, and aren't treated any better. Heck even Arab Jews are ill treated. It seems the only Jews treated rightfully are the European Jews.

    "it's not about the land in Palestine but about what many Muslims are being taught."

    Yes it IS about the land.

    "Anti-Semitism has long been a factor in the fate of Jews, but I think in the Middle East, it is rooted so deeply into Arab\Muslim culture, in Middle East society, and in the hearts of its people that it truly is beyond our comprehension in America."

    Error. How can I (or ther Arabs) be anti semitic when infact we're Semites?

    "I've been listening to Muslim sermons delivered to Palestinians in Lebanon and I must tell you the Hate that is preached from Muslim Activists and Muslim Holy leaders is appalling and frightening. From what I hear in the sermons, they believe that God is directing and blessing their actions. The religious points Palestinians and many Muslim parents teach their children are child abuse in my estimation."

    No Junebug, in our sermons, we should preach love for the opressor. Yes because that's what happened in South Africa, children were taught to "love" the white man, and what the white man is doing was justified and correct, and the land DID belong to the white man. I'm correct aren't I?

    "The Palestinians send their kids to kill innocent people then the Israelis send their tanks to kill many Palestinians."

    Please place that in chronoligical order. I ask again, WHY DO YOU THINK PALESTINIANS KILL? Please do me a favour, and answer it.

    "Do you expect the Israelis to sit by and let bombers have their way, of course not, but it seems to me that some people expect the Israelis to trust the Palestinians to live next to them when they have not shown that they can be peaceable."

    But do you expect Palestinians to sit back and watch aliens inhabit their land? Did you know that the Israelis drove the population of Arabs OUT and settled in? Did you know this consequently left 2 million Arabs in abject poverty and conditions of living in refugee camps? How in GODS name do you justify that?

    "1. Get a responsible Palestinian leader, you talk about leadership it seems to me Arafat is bent on revenge and the complete removal of the Israeli's. Peace is not part of his agenda. He has to GO!"

    I TOTALLY concur with you on that one. I always believe Arafat was too pro-Israeli. We need an AbdulNasser rather than a Sadat.

    "2. All Militant groups who encourage suicide bombings must be stopped and dismantled."

    And then what? Israelis would persist in occupying a land not rightfully theirs, two million Palestinians without a home, low employment, herrendous education systems, EXTREME poverty.

    "What would you have Israel do? I think they really have no choice but to react when Palestinians send suicide bombers to kill innocent people. The problem there is NOT ABOUT LAND, it's about religion being exploited to appease hate being taught by Islamic Extremists."

    Palestinians killing innocent Israelis? How about you do me a favour and look up the amount of casualities from BOTH sides. My source? The Israeli Information center.
    http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Total_Casualties.asp

    And for the last time, YES, it's ABOUT land.

    There were 69 UN resoltuions DEFIED by Israel. Hmm, shouldn't the USA next target for the war on terrorism be Israel? Because you know, they did defy UN resolutions, and that's "wrong". Or is it only wrong when perhaps Iraq defies?

    List of resolutions DEFIED by Israel
    http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/special-edition/terrorism50/unresolu.htm

    ------------------------------------

    John Doe

    "THE ARABS HAVE 23 COUNTRIES, AND THE JEWS HAVE ONLY ONE, BUT TO PARAPHRASE CONFUSCIOUS, EVERY GREAT IMPERIALIST ENDEAVOR BEGINS WITH ONE STATE."

    AND THAT JUSTIFIES THE ILLEGAL OCCUPATION? SO LET'S SAY, I HAVE 20 DOLLARS IN MY POCKET, YOU HAVE NONE. WOULD YOU BE EXONERATED IF YOU STOLE ONE DOLLAR FROM ME? AND SINCE GERMANY WAS THE PURPOSE OF THE HOLOCAUST, SHOULDN'T GERMANY BE GIVEN TO THE JEWS? AND IF AMERICA IS SO FOND OF ZIONISM, SHOULDN'T THE JEWS MOVE TO NEVADA OR SOMETHING? PLENTY OF ROOM THERE.

    THE OCCUPATION OF PALESTINE IS ILLEGAL!
    Palestinian Refugees have the right to return to their homes in Israel.

    General Assembly Resolution 194, Dec. 11, 1948



    "Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible."


    Israel's occupation of Palestine is Illegal.

    Security Council Resolution 242, Nov. 22, 1967



    Calls for the withdrawal of Israeli forces from territories occupied in the war that year and "the acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every state in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."



    Israel's settlements in Palestine are Illegal.

    Security Council Resolution 446, March 22, 1979



    "Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East."



    Palestinian have the right to Self-Determination.

    General Assembly Resolution 3236, November 22, 1974



    Affirms "the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in Palestine...to self-determination without external interference" and "to national independence and sovereignty."



    Reaffirmation of a Palestinian State

    Security Council Resolution 1397, March 12, 2002



    Affirms "a vision of a region where two states, Israel and Palestine, live side by side within secure and recognized borders."


    I'd like to thank my source www.jewsagainsttheoccupation.org
    www.nimn.org
    (Not In My Name)

    "AGAIN, SISTER, I COULDN'T AGREE WITH YOU MORE. THE ARABS DON'T HAVE ENOUGH LAND, AND THE JEWS HAVE TOO MUCH."

    Since when did religion define a state? Have you heard of a Christian state or a Muslim state? Arab countries define themselves as an Arab country, and some with Islam as their main religion. Just as Britain is a British country with Christianity as the predominant religion.

    Islam was bred in Saudi Arabia. Does that mean that the rest of the Arab world have legitimate claim of it just because it's the birthplace of Islam?

    And if the IDF was completely innocent as you claim them to be, why is it that 200 soldiers refused to work after the illegal occupation due to the immorality of the IDF? Hey, don't shoot me. We're talking about Israeli refusal to work.

    You know what? I have much to talk about and stress on but I'll leave it to a Jew to explain it to you.
    ----------------------------------------

    "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. " Quran 5:3

    "In their wars of conquest however, the Muslims exhibited a degree of toleration that puts many Christian civilizations to shame"
    -E. Alexander Powell

    "The Muhammaden Law which is binding on all from the crowned head to the mearest subject is a law interwoven with a system of the wisest, the most learned and the most enlightened jurispudence in the world."
    -Edmund Burke

    "While Christianity has moved towards a social gospel in recent years, Islam has always been a social gospel"
    -A. J. Toynbee

    "As a religion, the Mohommadian religion, it must be confessed, is more suited to Africa than is the Christian religion, indeed, I would say it is more suited to the world as a whole."
    -Lancelot Lawton

    "It will thus be seen, that a final and complete text of the Qura'an was prepared within twenty years after the death (AD 632) of Muhammad, and that this has remained the same, without any change, or alteration by enthusiasts, translators, or interpolators, up to the present time. It is to be regretted that the same cannot be said of all the books of the Old and New Testaments"
    -F. F. Arbuthnot

    "Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That's a good religion."
    Malcolm X 1965 on Islam

    "It (Qura
    I believe a Jewish point of view is valid ... so here it is...

    Source: www.jewsagainsttheillgaloccupation.org

    Introduction

    The standard Zionist position is that they showed up in Palestine in the late 19th century to reclaim their ancestral homeland. Jews bought land and started building up the Jewish community there. They were met with increasingly violent opposition from the Palestinian Arabs, presumably stemming from the Arabs' inherent anti-Semitism. The Zionists were then forced to defend themselves and, in one form or another, this same situation continues up to today.

    The problem with this explanation is that it is simply not true, as the documentary evidence in this booklet will show. What really happened was that the Zionist movement, from the beginning, looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the indigenous Arab population so that Israel could be a wholly Jewish state, or as much as was possible. Land bought by the Jewish National Fund was held in the name of the Jewish people and could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs (a situation which continues to the present).

    The Arab community, as it became increasingly aware of the Zionists' intentions, strenuously opposed further Jewish immigration and land buying because it posed a real and imminent danger to the very existence of Arab society in Palestine. Because of this opposition, the entire Zionist project never could have been realized without the military backing of the British. The vast majority of the population of Palestine, by the way, had been Arabic since the seventh century A.D. (Over 1200 years)

    In short, Zionism was based on a faulty, colonialist world view that the rights of the indigenous inhabitants didn't matter. The Arabs' opposition to Zionism wasn't based on anti-Semitism but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people.

    One further point: being Jewish ourselves, the position we present here is critical of Zionism but is in no way anti-Semitic. We do not believe that the Jews acted worse than any other group might have acted in their situation. The Zionists (who were a distinct minority of the Jewish people until after WWII) had an understandable desire to establish a place where Jews could be masters of their own fate, given the bleak history of Jewish oppression. Especially as the danger to European Jewry crystalized in the late 1930's and after, the actions of the Zionists were propelled by real desperation.

    But so were the actions of the Arabs. The mythic "land without people for a people without land" was already home to 700,000 Palestinians in 1919. This is the root of the problem, as we shall see.

    (for the rest, visit the site)

    "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. " Quran 5:3

    "In their wars of conquest however, the Muslims exhibited a degree of toleration that puts many Christian civilizations to shame"
    -E. Alexander Powell

    "The Muhammaden Law which is binding on all from the crowned head to the mearest subject is a law interwoven with a system of the wisest, the most learned and the most enlightened jurispudence in the world."
    -Edmund Burke

    "While Christianity has moved towards a social gospel in recent years, Islam has always been a social gospel"
    -A. J. Toynbee

    "As a religion, the Mohommadian religion, it must be confessed, is more suited to Africa than is the Christian religion, indeed, I would say it is more suited to the world as a whole."
    -Lancelot Lawton

    "It will thus be seen, that a final and complete text of the Qura'an was prepared within twenty years after the death (AD 632) of Muhammad, and that this has remained the same, without any change, or alteration by enthusiasts, translators, or interpolators, up to the present time. It is to be regretted that the same cannot be said of all the books of the Old and New Testaments"
    -F. F. Arbuthnot

    "Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That's a good religion."
    Malcolm X 1965 on Islam

    "It (Qura
    You have every right to your opinion.

    Just because you don't agree with some people regarding the Middle East, no one has the right to try to ostracize you.

    You must be Jewish, you have a stake in what is said about this issue, what you say is coming from the heart and that should be taken into account, passion makes the difference in others understanding issues. Blacks have mostly heard one side regarding the Middle East. We need to hear your perspective.

    I for one would like to hear what you would do to try to solve the Middle East Crisis between Arabs\Muslims and Israelis.

    Instead of just retorting to other's comments, why don't you lay it out as you see it within the spirit of the thread.

    Take care, JuneBug big grin
    Sweetie forgive me, I spelt the link wrong, here it is:

    http://www.jewsagainttheillegaloccupation.com

    Another good Jewish site

    http://www.nimn.org

    You'll find it very informative.

    Good day.

    "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. " Quran 5:3

    "In their wars of conquest however, the Muslims exhibited a degree of toleration that puts many Christian civilizations to shame"
    -E. Alexander Powell

    "The Muhammaden Law which is binding on all from the crowned head to the mearest subject is a law interwoven with a system of the wisest, the most learned and the most enlightened jurispudence in the world."
    -Edmund Burke

    "While Christianity has moved towards a social gospel in recent years, Islam has always been a social gospel"
    -A. J. Toynbee

    "As a religion, the Mohommadian religion, it must be confessed, is more suited to Africa than is the Christian religion, indeed, I would say it is more suited to the world as a whole."
    -Lancelot Lawton

    "It will thus be seen, that a final and complete text of the Qura'an was prepared within twenty years after the death (AD 632) of Muhammad, and that this has remained the same, without any change, or alteration by enthusiasts, translators, or interpolators, up to the present time. It is to be regretted that the same cannot be said of all the books of the Old and New Testaments"
    -F. F. Arbuthnot

    "Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That's a good religion."
    Malcolm X 1965 on Islam

    "It (Qura
    quote:
    Originally posted by ArabianQueen:
    WHOOPIE

    "AQ... There has already been two wars in the past 35 years... 1967 and 1972...

    Israel WON both wars...

    So I can only assume by your own "proposal" that Israel wins ALL of the territory!!!...

    Or do you feel that they should keep on fighting until the results are favorable to your liking???...

    What if there is a third war and Israel wins again... Will you accept Israel's total control via the win???... Something tells me NO!!!...

    How many wars must Israel win in order to live in peace???"

    Well Whoopie, the Palestinians are still here, still existing anf still suffering. The only answer is if one side was driven out or eradicated. THEN it'll ALL be over.


    SORRY FOR QUOTING AGAIN,; I KNOW IT BUGS SOME OF YOU, BUT THIS POINT JUST HAD TO BE HIGHLIGHTED. ONCE AGAIN, AQ UNWITTINGLY SHARES HER TRUE INTENTIONS---"THE ONLY ANSWER (EERILY SIMILAR TO THE FINAL SOLUTION?) IS IF ONE SIDE WAS DRIVEN OUT OR ERADICATED." CAN ANYONE STILL WONDER WHY THERE WILL PEOBABLY NEVER BE PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST?
    JUNEBUG

    So we meet again, I'm glad.
    I'D BE SCARED!
    "I think much of the burden is on the Palestinians who brainwash and send their own children to murder innocent people in God's name by exploding themselves."

    For the last flipping time, PALESTINIANS DO NOT SEND THEIR OWN CHILDREN TO MURDER. The first female suicide bomber had to perpetrate this act BEHIND HER FAMILIES BACK. The majority of families are completely oblivious to this until it actually occurs.
    AND THEN THEY GLADLY TAKE DONATIONS FROM THOSE TWIN PILLARS OF PEACE, SAUDI ARABIA AND SADDAM.
    "The vicious cycle will continue, the suicide bombers take the offense and kill innocent people"

    ASK YOURSELF WHY. Why do you think ANYONE would take their own life like it was cheap and KILL anyone? I have MANY quotes made by your Jewish brethrens who had thier family members killed by suicide bombers and they STILL blame Israel. If THEY can see it, WHY CAN'T YOU?
    WORD TO THE WISE: TO THE JEW-HATERS, EVERYTHING IS ALWAYS THE JEWS' FAULT.
    "the Israelis kill more Palestinians with their guns and tanks in defense in which innocent Palestinians are killed"

    JuneBug you're right. An 8 year old boy, WHAT A TERRORIST.
    MANY OF THE HOMOCIDE BOMBERS HAVE BEEN YOUNGSTERS WHO WERE PRACTICALLY FED JEW-HATRED FROM THEIR MOTHERS' BREASTS.
    That rock he's holding might DESTROY the giant tank.
    AT LEAST ISRAELIS USE RUBBER-COATED BULLETS. I HAVEN'T HEARD ABOUT ANY RUBBER-COVERED ROCKS, THOUGH.
    "When the Israelis try to make peace with offers of land and self-autonomy for the Palestinians the Islamic militants send more suicide bombers which kills any chance for peace."

    Offers of land? Please investigate CLOSER to what Barak had offered in the Camp David talks, instead of depending on the myth, "it was Arafats fault".
    HE OFFERED 98% OF THE TERRITORIES. SOME "PEOPLE" ARE NEVER SATISFIED.
    "To me the suicide killings must stop first for peace to have a chance but Islamic Militants will not have it. The Palestinians must show that they have it in them to be peaceable."

    I agree it must stop, for the sake of the suicide bombers themselves. A 16 year old girl bombed herself, people like her need to be rescued. They said they would stop if the illegal occupation was ended. This makes a lot of sense seeing as the suicide bombings didn't commence until the illgal occupation was in place.
    AND DO YOU EXPECT PEOPLE TO JUST CAPITULATE TO SUCH EXTORTION?
    "It's not just the Palestinians against the Jews but it's an Arab\Islamic war against Christians and Western values."

    Let's not forget that about a third of Palestinians ARE christian, and aren't treated any better. Heck even Arab Jews are ill treated.
    THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN ARAB JEW. IF THERE WERE, THE ARABS WOULDN'T HAVE KICKED 800,000 OF THEIR "BRETHREN" OUT OF THEIR LANDS.
    It seems the only Jews treated rightfully are the European Jews.
    AND BY "RIGHTFULLY" I ASSUME YOU MEAN GETTING THROWN INTO OVENS, AND TRANSFORMED INTO LAMPSHADES?
    "it's not about the land in Palestine but about what many Muslims are being taught."

    Yes it IS about the land.

    "Anti-Semitism has long been a factor in the fate of Jews, but I think in the Middle East, it is rooted so deeply into Arab\Muslim culture, in Middle East society, and in the hearts of its people that it truly is beyond our comprehension in America."

    Error. How can I (or ther Arabs) be anti semitic when infact we're Semites?
    OY VEY!!!
    "I've been listening to Muslim sermons delivered to Palestinians in Lebanon and I must tell you the Hate that is preached from Muslim Activists and Muslim Holy leaders is appalling and frightening. From what I hear in the sermons, they believe that God is directing and blessing their actions. The religious points Palestinians and many Muslim parents teach their children are child abuse in my estimation."

    No Junebug, in our sermons, we should preach love for the opressor. Yes because that's what happened in South Africa, children were taught to "love" the white man, and what the white man is doing was justified and correct, and the land DID belong to the white man. I'm correct aren't I?

    "The Palestinians send their kids to kill innocent people then the Israelis send their tanks to kill many Palestinians."

    Please place that in chronoligical order. I ask again, WHY DO YOU THINK PALESTINIANS KILL? Please do me a favour, and answer it.
    BECAUSE THEY ARE HOMOCIDAL MANIACS. HAPPY NOW?
    "Do you expect the Israelis to sit by and let bombers have their way, of course not, but it seems to me that some people expect the Israelis to trust the Palestinians to live next to them when they have not shown that they can be peaceable."

    But do you expect Palestinians to sit back and watch aliens inhabit their land?
    IF THE JEWS ARE THE ALIENS, HOWCOME THE WAILING WALL IS BENEATH THE DOME OF THE ROCK? IF THE DOME OF THE ROCK WERE THERE FIRST, WOULDN'T IT BE BENEATH THE WAILING WALL?
    Did you know that the Israelis drove the population of Arabs OUT and settled in?
    NO, BUT THE ARABS DROVE 800,000 YIDDEN OUT OF ARAB LANDS.
    Did you know this consequently left 2 million Arabs in abject poverty and conditions of living in refugee camps?
    AND WHY ARE THEY STILL LIVING IN REFUGEE CAMPS NOW THAT THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY EXISTS? WHY ARE THERE REFUGEE CAMPS FOR ARABS IN ARAB NATIONS SUCH AS JORDAN, SYRIA, AND LEBANON? IS IT BECAUSE THESE ARABS CARE MORE ABOUT THEIR BROTHERS' PUBLIC RELATIONS VALUES THEN ABOUT THEIR VERY LIVES THEMSELVES?
    How in GODS name do you justify that?

    "1. Get a responsible Palestinian leader, you talk about leadership it seems to me Arafat is bent on revenge and the complete removal of the Israeli's. Peace is not part of his agenda. He has to GO!"

    I TOTALLY concur with you on that one. I always believe Arafat was too pro-Israeli. We need an AbdulNasser rather than a Sadat.
    LOL!!!
    "2. All Militant groups who encourage suicide bombings must be stopped and dismantled."

    And then what? Israelis would persist in occupying a land not rightfully theirs, two million Palestinians without a home, low employment, herrendous education systems, EXTREME poverty.
    "PALESTINIANS" HAVE THE HIGHEST EDUCATIONAL RATE IN THE ARAB WORLD, AND BEFORE THEIR RIOTS STARTED UP AGAIN, THE HIGHEST STANDARD OF LIVING AMONGST THE NON-OIL PRODUCING ARAB STATES.
    "What would you have Israel do? I think they really have no choice but to react when Palestinians send suicide bombers to kill innocent people. The problem there is NOT ABOUT LAND, it's about religion being exploited to appease hate being taught by Islamic Extremists."

    Palestinians killing innocent Israelis? How about you do me a favour and look up the amount of casualities from BOTH sides. My source? The Israeli Information center.
    http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Total_Casualties.asp
    SINCE WHEN IS THIS A NUMBERS GAME?
    And for the last time, YES, it's ABOUT land.

    There were 69 UN resoltuions DEFIED by Israel.
    ONLY BECAUSE THE UN IS A PRO-ARAB BODY.
    Hmm, shouldn't the USA next target for the war on terrorism be Israel?
    NO, IT'S THE ARABS WHO USE TERROR TO TRY TO ACHIEVE THEIR NEFARIOUS GOALS.
    Because you know, they did defy UN resolutions, and that's "wrong". Or is it only wrong when perhaps Iraq defies?

    List of resolutions DEFIED by Israel
    http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/special-edition/terrorism50/unresolu.htm

    ------------------------------------

    John Doe

    "THE ARABS HAVE 23 COUNTRIES, AND THE JEWS HAVE ONLY ONE, BUT TO PARAPHRASE CONFUSCIOUS, EVERY GREAT IMPERIALIST ENDEAVOR BEGINS WITH ONE STATE."

    AND THAT JUSTIFIES THE ILLEGAL OCCUPATION?
    SO LET'S SAY, I HAVE 20 DOLLARS IN MY POCKET, YOU HAVE NONE. WOULD YOU BE EXONERATED IF YOU STOLE ONE DOLLAR FROM ME? AND SINCE GERMANY WAS THE PURPOSE OF THE HOLOCAUST, SHOULDN'T GERMANY BE GIVEN TO THE JEWS?
    the jews have no historical claim to germany; they have one to israel.
    AND IF AMERICA IS SO FOND OF ZIONISM, SHOULDN'T THE JEWS MOVE TO NEVADA OR SOMETHING? PLENTY OF ROOM THERE.
    typical arab idea---expel the jews again.
    THE OCCUPATION OF PALESTINE IS ILLEGAL!
    whose laws?

    Palestinian Refugees have the right to return to their homes in Israel.
    not if they're going to blow people up, they don't!
    General Assembly Resolution 194, Dec. 11, 1948



    "Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible."
    "LIVE AT PEACE" IS THE OPERATIVE TERM!

    Israel's occupation of Palestine is Illegal.

    Security Council Resolution 242, Nov. 22, 1967



    Calls for the withdrawal of Israeli forces from territories occupied in the war that year and "the acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every state in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."
    KIND OF LIKE THE THREATS THAT THE ARABS PERPETRATE ON A DAILY BASIS, INCLUDING THE INSTIGATION OF THAT VERY WAR.


    Israel's settlements in Palestine are Illegal.

    Security Council Resolution 446, March 22, 1979



    "Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East."
    FUNNY HOW THAT "UNBIASED" BODY FAILS TO MENTION LITTLE KIDS WHO BLOW THEMSELVES UP ON BUSES AS BEING OBSTACLES TO PEACE, ISN'T IT?


    Palestinian have the right to Self-Determination.

    General Assembly Resolution 3236, November 22, 1974



    Affirms "the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in Palestine...to self-determination without external interference" and "to national independence and sovereignty."
    AND THAY HAVE THEIR OWN NATION. JORDAN IS 67% ETHNIC PALESTINIAN, AND IS ON 75% OF HISTORICAL PALESTINIAN LAND.


    Reaffirmation of a Palestinian State

    Security Council Resolution 1397, March 12, 2002



    Affirms "a vision of a region where two states, Israel and Palestine, live side by side within secure and recognized borders."
    NO PROBLEM, AS LONG AS JORDAN REMAINS THAT STATE.

    I'd like to thank my source http://www.jewsagainsttheoccupation.org
    http://www.nimn.org
    (Not In My Name)

    "AGAIN, SISTER, I COULDN'T AGREE WITH YOU MORE. THE ARABS DON'T HAVE ENOUGH LAND, AND THE JEWS HAVE TOO MUCH."

    Since when did religion define a state?
    YOU SAID YOURSELF IT DID, AS SAUDI ARABIA DOES NOT ALLOW THE ERECTION OF A SINGLE CHURCH OR SYNAGOGUE!
    Have you heard of a Christian state or a Muslim state? Arab countries define themselves as an Arab country, and some with Islam as their main religion. Just as Britain is a British country with Christianity as the predominant religion.

    Islam was bred in Saudi Arabia. Does that mean that the rest of the Arab world have legitimate claim of it just because it's the birthplace of Islam?

    And if the IDF was completely innocent as you claim them to be, why is it that 200 soldiers refused to work after the illegal occupation due to the immorality of the IDF? Hey, don't shoot me. We're talking about Israeli refusal to work.

    You know what? I have much to talk about and stress on but I'll leave it to a Jew to explain it to you.
    ----------------------------------------

    "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. " Quran 5:3

    "In their wars of conquest however, the Muslims exhibited a degree of toleration that puts many Christian civilizations to shame"
    -E. Alexander Powell

    "The Muhammaden Law which is binding on all from the crowned head to the mearest subject is a law interwoven with a system of the wisest, the most learned and the most enlightened jurispudence in the world."
    -Edmund Burke

    "While Christianity has moved towards a social gospel in recent years, Islam has always been a social gospel"
    -A. J. Toynbee

    "As a religion, the Mohommadian religion, it must be confessed, is more suited to Africa than is the Christian religion, indeed, I would say it is more suited to the world as a whole."
    -Lancelot Lawton

    "It will thus be seen, that a final and complete text of the Qura'an was prepared within twenty years after the death (AD 632) of Muhammad, and that this has remained the same, without any change, or alteration by enthusiasts, translators, or interpolators, up to the present time. It is to be regretted that the same cannot be said of all the books of the Old and New Testaments"
    -F. F. Arbuthnot

    "Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That's a good religion."
    Malcolm X 1965 on Islam

    "It (Qura
    I find it quite hilarious that (some) Jews use the excuse of the Holocaust to perpetrate acts of crime and to vindicate themselves. The Holocaust was a tradgic incident in History, HOWEVER, not only Jews suffered that, but Gypsies, homosexuals and gays. Funny how THEY never surface that issue.

    "WORD TO THE WISE: TO THE JEW-HATERS, EVERYTHING IS ALWAYS THE JEWS' FAULT."

    To a Jew, everything is always anti-semitic (I'm quoting a Jew here, can't go wrong)

    "HE OFFERED 98% OF THE TERRITORIES. SOME "PEOPLE" ARE NEVER SATISFIED."

    Since you seem overly versed in that subject, enlighten me and tell me the CONDITIONS that came along with that 98%?

    "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN ARAB JEW. IF THERE WERE, THE ARABS WOULDN'T HAVE KICKED 800,000 OF THEIR "BRETHREN" OUT OF THEIR LANDS."

    Sir, I believe you're mistaken, there are many Arab Jews, mainly from Morrocco and Yemen. The Palestinian Jews lived in Palestine.

    "AND BY "RIGHTFULLY" I ASSUME YOU MEAN GETTING THROWN INTO OVENS, AND TRANSFORMED INTO LAMPSHADES"

    Another refernce to The Holocaust as an excuse. Sir, I repeat it was tradgic, but let's not be hypocritical at the Neo-Nazi state, Israel.

    "BECAUSE THEY ARE HOMOCIDAL MANIACS. HAPPY NOW"

    Evidence of ignorance. Even if the previous statement was true Sir, this isn't inherent but man made. Maniacs were developed from Israeli oppression.

    "IF THE JEWS ARE THE ALIENS, HOWCOME THE WAILING WALL IS BENEATH THE DOME OF THE ROCK? IF THE DOME OF THE ROCK WERE THERE FIRST, WOULDN'T IT BE BENEATH THE WAILING WALL?"

    That I believe is untrue. Israel just wants the destruction of the dome of the rock. This will never happen though, Sir.

    "AND WHY ARE THEY STILL LIVING IN REFUGEE CAMPS NOW THAT THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY EXISTS? WHY ARE THERE REFUGEE CAMPS FOR ARABS IN ARAB NATIONS SUCH AS JORDAN, SYRIA, AND LEBANON? IS IT BECAUSE THESE ARABS CARE MORE ABOUT THEIR BROTHERS' PUBLIC RELATIONS VALUES THEN ABOUT THEIR VERY LIVES THEMSELVES"

    Sir you must mean the Palestinian authority that is incessantly destroyed by Israeli tanks. Why should other Arab countries endure a large population of Palestinians when they BELONG in Palestine? Palestinians would refuse it, they will only be satiated by their homeland, currently being ILLEGALLY occupied.

    ""PALESTINIANS" HAVE THE HIGHEST EDUCATIONAL RATE IN THE ARAB WORLD, AND BEFORE THEIR RIOTS STARTED UP AGAIN, THE HIGHEST STANDARD OF LIVING AMONGST THE NON-OIL PRODUCING ARAB STATES."

    Oh Really?

    Since the beginning of the Alaqsa Intifada, in the past year, Israel has set 90 new checkpoints all over the West Bank and Gaza strip, bringing to 129 military blockades that prevent access to the Palestinian towns and villages, and divided the territories into 220 isolated areas. In remote areas, because of closure, female teachers are prevented from reaching their schools in isolated villages. This has also effected the education of female children who likewise lack mobility to attend school in the major Palestinian towns and cities.
    So far, 174 Palestinian schools were shut down due to Israeli siege while more than 90,000 Palestinian students are deprived from attending school. Today 20.3% of women over the age of 15 are illiterate, Compared to 7.8% of the men.

    Israeli siege and military checkpoints, which cut the Palestinian areas from Israel and from each other, prevent the flow of goods, services and workers, which negatively effect the economy.
    In a situation where the fathers, the brothers, the husbands and sons of Palestinian women are being killed or injured, Palestinian women turn to be almost the only hope to secure family income. At a time when the economic situation does not offer employment possibilities, they often rely on their children who abandon their education and work for long hours in unhealthy conditions to provide the very basic needs of their families.
    Surveys show that due to Israeli closure, 275,000 Palestinians lost their jobs. 65% of the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip are living under poverty line (which is 392 US$ a month for a house hold of two adults and 4 children). The unemployment rate reached 48% in the West bank and 67% in Gaza.

    About 70% of the Palestinians live in rural areas. Movement restrictions prevent them from medical treatment. Pregnant or sick women are constantly stopped at military checkpoints and prevented from getting health services. UNRWA recently reported 4 cases of child birth at checkpoints and a 58% increase of still birth, due to checkpoints which prevent mothers from providing their newborn babies with basic health care. Other medical organizations reported 100 % increase in home deliveries. Additionally, UNRWA reported a 52% decrease in women attending post-natal care, which led to an increase in death or permanent physical disability of the mother or the baby. Recent statistics show that 80% of Palestinian women today do not receive post-natal care.

    Unfortunately, Israeli political fundamentalism did not forget property,
    During the last year, Israel has demolished 809 Palestinian homes, damaged 3669 houses and destroyed over 108 water wells and 50 places of worship. In addition to 679 houses destroyed during Israeli shelling.
    While loosing their homes, Palestinian women lose their belongings and savings which dramatically effects them mentally and physically, especially that they sill have to look after their families and children and especially that this is pretty much where they spend most of their time and efforts.
    In addition, Israeli bulldozers constantly damage many roads and uproot thousands of dunams of Palestinian agricultural land, expulsing farmers and their families out. This specifically effects Palestinian rural women who mostly work and live out of agriculture.

    In addition, we have the suffering of the women political prisoners,
    Israeli military authorities are holding currently 13 Palestinian female political prisoners, four of them are young girls, and those are: 18 year old Su`ad Ghazal who was sentenced for 6.5 years imprisonment, 15 year old Sana´ Amro who was sentenced for one year imprisonment, 15 year old Raba`a Hamayel detained since 28.5.2001, and 14 year old Sawsan Abu Tarqi detained since 4.9.2001.
    These prisoners have been subjected to severe beating by Israeli interrogators, it was reported recently that two of the detainees were admitted to a hospital for medical treatment as a result of beating, one of them was 14 years old child Sawsan Abu Tarqi.



    Why haven't you commented on what your Jewish brothers wrote on the activity of the Israeli state?

    --------------------------------------------

    "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. " Quran 5:3

    "In their wars of conquest however, the Muslims exhibited a degree of toleration that puts many Christian civilizations to shame"
    -E. Alexander Powell

    "The Muhammaden Law which is binding on all from the crowned head to the mearest subject is a law interwoven with a system of the wisest, the most learned and the most enlightened jurispudence in the world."
    -Edmund Burke

    "While Christianity has moved towards a social gospel in recent years, Islam has always been a social gospel"
    -A. J. Toynbee

    "As a religion, the Mohommadian religion, it must be confessed, is more suited to Africa than is the Christian religion, indeed, I would say it is more suited to the world as a whole."
    -Lancelot Lawton

    "It will thus be seen, that a final and complete text of the Qura'an was prepared within twenty years after the death (AD 632) of Muhammad, and that this has remained the same, without any change, or alteration by enthusiasts, translators, or interpolators, up to the present time. It is to be regretted that the same cannot be said of all the books of the Old and New Testaments"
    -F. F. Arbuthnot

    "Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That's a good religion."
    Malcolm X 1965 on Islam

    "It (Qura
    Allow me to ask you the Qs. Visualise with me JB. You're a black man, living on black land. You are content, satiated, annexed to your land. You have a beautiful family, living side by side with your brothers. All of a sudden the white man trespasses unto your land in hundreds, then thousands then millions. He (white man) claims to be the legitimate owner of the land. How could this be, you may ask. You were born there, your grandfather and pretty much all your ancestors and your future progeny. This white man migrated from a distant land and yet he claims the ownership of the land.

    Eventually, 2 million blacks are pushed to the borders by means of massacres of this white man. This expulsion was perpetrated brutally. This land that you've had long possession of is no longer under your control. The white man seized it, and called it "white mans land" and hung his white flags where your beautiful flags once waved.

    Now, the white man fixated 90 checkpoints, set up 129 military blackades that prevent the freedom of your people. Female teachers are prevented from reaching their schools in isolated villages. This has also effected the education of female children who likewise lack mobility to attend school in the major black towns and cities.

    Thus far, 174 black schools were shut down due to White man siege while more than 90,000 black students are deprived from attending school.20.3% of women over the age of 15 are illiterate, Compared to 7.8% of the men.

    White siege and military checkpoints, which cut the black areas from the white man and from each other, prevent the flow of goods, services and workers, which negatively effect the economy.

    In your situation where the fathers, the brothers, the husbands and sons of black women are being killed or injured, Black women turn to be almost the only hope to secure family income. At a time when the economic situation does not offer employment possibilities, they often rely on their children who abandon their education and work for long hours in unhealthy conditions to provide the very basic needs of their families.
    Now the surveys show that due to white man closure, 275,000 Blacks lost their jobs. 65% of the blacks living under poverty line (which is 392 US$ a month for a house hold of two adults and 4 children). The unemployment rate reaches 67%.

    Now about 70% of the blacks live in rural areas. Movement restrictions prevent them from medical treatment. Pregnant or sick women are constantly stopped at military checkpoints and prevented from getting health services. UNRWA recently reported 4 cases of child birth at checkpoints and a 58% increase of still birth, due to checkpoints which prevent mothers from providing their newborn babies with basic health care. Other medical organizations report 100 % increase in home deliveries. Additionally, UNRWA reported a 52% decrease in women attending post-natal care, which led to an increase in death or permanent physical disability of the mother or the baby. Recent statistics show that 80% of black women do not receive post-natal care.

    In space of a year, the white man demolished 809 black homes, damaged 3669 houses and destroyed over 108 water wells and 50 places of worship. In addition to 679 houses destroyed during white man shelling.

    While loosing your homes, black women lose their belongings and savings which dramatically effects them mentally and physically, especially that they sill have to look after their families and children and especially that this is pretty much where they spend most of their time and efforts.

    In addition, the white mans' bulldozers constantly damage many roads and uproot thousands of dunams of black agricultural land, expulsing farmers and their families out. This specifically effects black rural women who mostly work and live out of agriculture.

    Your people are unfairly sent to prisons, beaten in interrogation rooms, as young as girls the age of 14. There are many casualities that are unenumrated. You're determined to obtain your land back and gain independence. You tolerated 50 years of fighting. Your people hav suffered both physically and mentally to the extent that they resort to suicide bombing. You've thrown in the towel, your life is cheap, you're unemployed and your wife's most likely dead.

    What would you have the white man to do? Answer HONESTLY.

    --------------------------------------------

    "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. " Quran 5:3

    "In their wars of conquest however, the Muslims exhibited a degree of toleration that puts many Christian civilizations to shame"
    -E. Alexander Powell

    "The Muhammaden Law which is binding on all from the crowned head to the mearest subject is a law interwoven with a system of the wisest, the most learned and the most enlightened jurispudence in the world."
    -Edmund Burke

    "While Christianity has moved towards a social gospel in recent years, Islam has always been a social gospel"
    -A. J. Toynbee

    "As a religion, the Mohommadian religion, it must be confessed, is more suited to Africa than is the Christian religion, indeed, I would say it is more suited to the world as a whole."
    -Lancelot Lawton

    "It will thus be seen, that a final and complete text of the Qura'an was prepared within twenty years after the death (AD 632) of Muhammad, and that this has remained the same, without any change, or alteration by enthusiasts, translators, or interpolators, up to the present time. It is to be regretted that the same cannot be said of all the books of the Old and New Testaments"
    -F. F. Arbuthnot

    "Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That's a good religion."
    Malcolm X 1965 on Islam

    "It (Qura
    What I'd like to know is why Jews worked so hard in the Civil "Rights" Movement if this was the thanks they were bound to get. Well, happily, Jews have joined their white brethren in a shift to the right (and in doing what's right for their own people). In the words of the great British rabbi, Roger Daltreystein, "We won't get fooled again!"
    AQ's links proves that, heck I was surprised to see so many Jews who are against Israel's current policy. I don't speak for all Blacks.

    Look, all of us are individuals, we are not simply this or that. I know that is the tendency to put people in labeled boxes because it's orderly and simple to take sides. Conservatives vs Liberals, Blacks vs Whites, Jews vs Arabs, Muslims vs everyone not Muslim, LOL big grin, just kidding, sorta, smile
    But we live in a much complex world than that.

    For example, you probably think that I'm some sort of Liberal. I'm not, I'm JuneBug, and I voted Clinton twice, and voted Bush 43.

    However, unlike many black conservatives, I have not abandoned the issues that have brought Black people to this point in America. I notice that even when the facts are presented regarding our issues even the Blacks who ID themselves as Conservatives do not speak out on the side of truth but maintain a conservative posture that sometimes do not honestly respect the facts.

    There are few simple one line answers as you like to give regarding what is going on in America today and there are few or no moral or historic equivalences that you like to use to disqualify Black concerns.

    Like most things, this is Chess, not Checkers, and if you already have a close mind, which I think you have, all we will do on this board is argue.

    This is why I don't post on TBWT that much because people are not speaking with honesty but with agenda's, not willing to hear the other person out but there to minimize and disqualify the other persons point of view.

    All these smart ahz remarks, making light of other people's pain is not the way toward understanding and reflecting intelligently, it only leads toward more animosity.

    I think MBM, has been absent because like me, he it's hard to deal with people who will not answer questions or back down when someone makes a good point or to even agree when a good point is made or acknowldge them. I think MBM have been a good example of one who will acknowledge the other person point of view on this board, on the other hand, you JB are the other extreme.

    Yes, I got angry with you, if I was near you I would have kick your ahz, tried anyway. But thanks for the Internet which provided distance.

    You see, I don't think you appreciate the anger that is among African Americans, it was our parents and grand parents, uncles and aunts who are still living, who were cheated out of a chance for a better life because of bigotry.

    We all want a better world but we will never get there unless we respect the history and experience of others.

    I asked you once, why do you post on this board and you never answered, so you leave it up to others to read into your motives by the things you say and I must say that most everything you post do not remotely support or show any kind of empathy for Black issues and concerns.

    What is in your heart? Do you really hate black people because that is what I see in your posts, an arrogant, callous and angry spirit toward black issues.

    So I have concluded that your hate for black people is the reason that you post on TBWT and this board, it is your need to appease that hate.

    I was on Israel's side until you showed contempt for black people but I made a mistake because you don't speak for all Jews and most black people do not hate Jews but with your attitude, you make a poor example of how Jews really are.

    I've been to 3 bar mitzvahs, 3 Jewish weddings, and a few Jewish parties, my wife works for a same Jewish Doctor for the last 21 years, a well-known and noted Retina Specialist.

    Our families are good friends. This is why I came on the side of Israel from the start. But you almost single handedly snatch my objectivity because of my anger toward your arrogance and disrespect for Black concerns.

    I will not allow anger to cloud my thinking and I suggest that you do the same.

    Anyway, take care, JuneBug

    [This message was edited by JuneBug on September 27, 2002 at 09:19 AM.]
    Unfortunately, JD appears to be a paranoid extremist, the product of Zionist ideology linked with the establishment of the State of Israeli. His paranoia is directly associated with Arab hate and racism and the Israeli expropriation of Palestinian land. The establishment of Israel in the Middle East in many respects mimics the white Afrikaners in South Africa. We all remember the daily ABC/CBS horrendous acts of violence committed by white South African Defense Forces (SADF) against civilian black Africans. In Israel today violence against Palestinians differs only in acronym (IDF) Israeli Defense Forces, - in either case, the death of the subjugated is the end result!

    I was taught in Sunday school "Jews are the chosen people." Moreover, I have heard Jews themselves repeat this phrase particularly when asked about Israeli removal of Palestinians from their ancestral lands. Jews point to the Holy Bible as evidence for their contentions that they were chosen and the removal of Palestinian infidels is God's will. In like manor, South Africa's white Voortrekkers maintained that they too were God's chosen people. Like the Jews, they too were determined to avoid any "impurities" from affecting their race - be it cultural, religious or any other form. These biblical notions explain the real reason for social separation manifested in Israel's Gaza and the West Bank and South Africa's Bantustans. Both the Jews and white South Africans possess similar paranoid fears that their ill-begotten gains will either be taken away or lost in a war. These are the reasons for their constant violence and oppression of the other.

    I DO NOT HATE JEWS! In fact, I don't hate anyone. Now, my logic is as follows: I do not and cannot support violent American or European expropriation of Native American or African lands. I do not support wholesale mass murder of the type Hitler, Pol Pot, Hutu/Tutu or any other group commits. I have never supported slavery, African, American or otherwise. Now I ask, how in good conscious could I ever support Israel and then refuse to condemn the violence white South Africans committed against innocent blacks?
    quote:
    Originally posted by MBM:

    By the power invested in me as Host of AA.org - every Member here now is a full-fledged board member of the Governing Universal Council. The GWC was created at the fall of the UN when they couldn't get their act together on Iraq. The GWC has been tasked with "running shit" on earth! Wink

    Among all its wonders, the Middle East has been a tense/volatile/violent area for millenia. The GWC has decided, in its splendor, to fix that.

    What do we do? How do we alleviate tension? How do we create peace? What has to happen for that region to "work"?

    A couple of ground rules - you must think like the "Lord of the Universe" that each of you are. Don't get caught up in the tactics at this point. Also - think about the region in general and not about any particular country or cause. Be the statesperson that you are! Smile

    Let's solve this problem!



    Current thoughts?

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