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The Injustice Bill Cosby Won't See

By Michael E. Dyson

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...2001631.html?sub=new

Friday, July 21, 2006; Page A17

Ever since he battered poor blacks two years ago in his infamous remarks on the 50th anniversary of Brown v. Board of Education , Bill Cosby has been taking to the road to spread his bitter gospel to all who will listen. In rigged town-hall meetings, Cosby assembles community folk and experts who agree with his take on black poverty: that it's the fault of the poor themselves.

It's often difficult to point out just how harmful that sentiment is, because most black folk do believe strongly in taking their destiny into their own hands. They believe in hard work and moral decency. They affirm the need for education and personal discipline. When they hear Cosby say that poor black folk should go to work, stay out of jail, raise their children properly and make sure they go to school, they nod their heads in agreement.

But it's one thing to say that personal responsibility is crucial to our survival. It's another to pretend that it's the only thing that matters. The confusion between the two positions is what makes Cosby's blame-the-poor tour so destructive. By convincing poor blacks that their lot in life is purely of their own making, Cosby draws on harsh conservative ideas that overlook the big social factors that continue to reinforce poverty: dramatic shifts in the economy, low wages, chronic underemployment, job and capital flight, downsizing and outsourcing, and crumbling inner-city schools.

None of these can be overcome by the good behavior of poor blacks. As historian Robin D.G. Kelley argues, "All the self-help in the world will not eliminate poverty or create the number of good jobs needed to employ the African American community."

Furthermore, Cosby's insistence that race has little to do with the circumstances of the black poor pleases right-wing pundits who believe his denial is a sign of mature black leadership.

For most of his career, Cosby has avoided the subject of race. When approached by blacks to speak out on the subject, he has refused. "I don't have time to sit around and worry whether all the black people of the world make it because of me," he complained early in his career. "I don't want to be a crusader or a leader." Although he spurned the role of spokesman at the height of the civil rights movement, Cosby doesn't mind attacking the black poor now, while playing to stereotypes that plague their path.

One of those stereotypes is that poor blacks are lazy citizens who victim-monger while bemoaning the "white man." Such a view is undercut by what we know about the black poor: Most of them work, and few are paralyzed by their astute perceptions of persistent racism. But Cosby is hellbent on denying that race and structural forces play any role in the lives of the poor -- apparently because of his unsubstantiated fear that if these forces are acknowledged, the poor will lose their initiative, their desire to move ahead.

To borrow the language of philosophers: Personal responsibility is a necessary but insufficient condition for poor blacks to do better. We also need social justice to give them real opportunity to exercise that personal responsibility. That's why Martin Luther King Jr. didn't lead a behave-in to correct black morality, but a sit-in to protest racial injustice. (To be sure, King believed that for blacks to achieve "first-class citizenship," we must "assume the primary responsibility for making it so," even as we continue to "resist all forms of racial injustice.") Even conservative cleric T.D. Jakes argues that personal responsibility is "one-half of the solution" and that the "greater solution" is to combat "the lingering attitudes and bias that continue to fuel injustice."

The plane of black progress lifts on the wings of personal responsibility and social justice. Cosby is trying to fly the plane with one wing. With such a philosophy, it's bound to crash and burn.

The writer, a University of Pennsylvania professor, is the author of "Is Bill Cosby Right? Or Has the Black Middle Class Lost Its Mind?" and the winner of the 2006 NAACP Image Award.
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See, Nmaginate, this is somebody who I just feel has a HNIC syndrome. Notice he doesn't take the time to analyze Cosby's quotes. Instead he 'generalizes' Cosby's opinion and then goes out to call him wrong.

I don't know why Cosby didn't want to be an influence on Black America early in his career, but people have to realize that Cosby recently lost his son to a gunshot. I don't know about you but thats something that might make me become a little more vocal with my opinions.

I'm not even a person who necessarily agrees with all of Cosby's statements. But when a person like Dyson comes about and starts to treat him like the anti-Christ. I've got serious problems.

Meanwhile Michael Eric Dyson has his radio show where he thinks he's a 50 year old teenager just sounding stupid sayin stuff like 'wsup peeps hows it hanging shawty' and refuses to acknowledge that any of the problems in Black America are (even in part) the fault of Black America itself.

I'm just going to list some quotes that I think relate to this issue.

"I must do something" always solves more problems than "Something must be done." ~Author Unknown

When you blame others, you give up your power to change. ~Author Unknown

"You must take personal responsibility. You cannot change the circumstances, the seasons, or the wind, but you can change yourself."
"” Jim Rohn
like dyson; my only issue w/ the coz' (despite all the money him and his wife gives to black colleges); is that during the height of the civil rights struggle he "chose" to sit on the side lines..

he went on record several times stating that he basically was not interested in helping his own people if it ment his career would suffer...

for that you lose your black/ghetto pass fo' life!
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Blake,

Dyson, no more generalizes Cosby statements than Cosby generalizes the problems that plague the Black Community. If you do not know why Cosby didn't want to be a part of the solution early on in his career than you need to find out rather than speak from ignorance. It is clear to those of us who have looked over Cosby past why he chose to not be a part of the solution. The easy answer is he believed his activism would be detrimental to his career goal and he was right. White magazines considered him a colorless man early in his career because he stayed clear of the civil rights issues of the time.

Secondly, it was a white racist piece of shit that killed his son. Black folk had nothing to do with the murdering of his son. When his son was killed he was silent, it was his powerful, strong and beautiful wife Camille that wrote an article that had white folk going crazy. This is the same Camille that told Bill she don't agree with his blame the poor tour.

Lastly, Dyson says in this very article that our problem is two fold, and yet having read it you still seems to have missed that part. Let me quote it for you.

"The plane of black progress lifts on the wings of personal responsibility and social justice"
My bringing up Enis wasn't to try to find THE reason for Cosby's change. Its just a note that just because Cosby grew in his career believing one thing, doesn't mean he must believe that same thing all his life. And losing your son is as good a motive for becoming more vocal as anything else.

We can even talk about biblical times where the Apostle Paul came up and became known as a person who prosecuted Christians, he even condemned the stoning of Stephen. But Shortly after he became one of the biggest supporters of Christianity, and one of the biggest voices of Christianity.

People change their minds. It happens. And the fact that Cosby is doing something now that he didn't want to do earlier in his career doesn't make him a hypocrite, nor does it make his comments worthless. Tell me, if Michael Jordan decided tomorrow to make a comment on politics would Black America be offended because of that - even though he declared that he was not interested in politics during his playing days?
quote:
Originally posted by Blake Manner:

"...when a person like Dyson comes about and starts to treat him like the anti-Christ. I've got serious problems."



And what exactly is "a person like Dyson" like? I mean, you act like he's a Living "Anti-Christ" or some such evil. He must be the "Devil" or something for ever daring to criticize Bill Cosby. Am I getting that right?

Anyway... What about Dyson?

I mean, all you've said is that you don't like his style. I'm dedicating this portion of this thread (anyone responding to me) for all those who take issue with Cosby being "criticized" to just come out an tell me:

Did Dyson NOT Tell The Truth?
You say he "generalizes"... Well, what part isn't true?

Juxtapose whatever it is you take issue with when it comes to what Dyson has said with what Cosby actually said himself. Quote for Quote. Post what Cosby said right next to what Dyson said and show me what you're having a problem with.

Like I said, the only thing you've pointed out is how Dyson loses Style Points with you. Faheem already showed you (and this is typical) how you just told a BIG FAT LIE with this statement:

quote:
Meanwhile Michael Eric Dyson has his radio show where he ...refuses to acknowledge that any of the problems in Black America are (even in part) the fault of Black America itself.


(*ahem*)
To borrow the language of philosophers: Personal responsibility is a necessary but insufficient condition for poor blacks to do better... The plane of black progress lifts on the wings of personal responsibility and social justice.


ON COSBY'S GENERALIZATIONS:
One of those stereotypes is that poor blacks are lazy citizens who victim-monger while bemoaning the "white man." Such a view is undercut by what we know about the black poor: Most of them work, and few are paralyzed by their astute perceptions of persistent racism.


Don't even comment unless you're going to say, "Amen! DYSON TOLD THE TRUTH!" or you're going to show me what Dyson actually said that misrepresented what Cosby himself said. Oh and I'm waiting on you to explain Cosby's confused diatribe about a "50% Drop Out Rate."
quote:
People change their minds. It happens. And the fact that Cosby is doing something now that he didn't want to do earlier in his career doesn't make him a hypocrite, nor does it make his comments worthless. Tell me, if Michael Jordan decided tomorrow to make a comment on politics would Black America be offended because of that - even though he declared that he was not interested in politics during his playing days?


You damn right we would take offense to a negro who stood on the fence when his voice could have been helpful wanting to now talk about Black poor folks. Jordan can learn a lot from Magic, instead of trying to own a damn NBA team, how about investing in the Black community.

It is not necessary to prove anyone hypocritical to prove their arguement or stance is flawed.
quote:
Lastly, Dyson says in this very article that our problem is two fold, and yet having read it you still seems to have missed that part. Let me quote it for you.

"The plane of black progress lifts on the wings of personal responsibility and social justice"


Here's one of the quotes that pissed me off when I read the article.
"By convincing poor blacks that their lot in life is purely of their own making..."

This is what I'm talking about where he doesn't quote Cosby but rather 'generalizes' the comments of Cosby. I have never read a quote that the situations of these poor Blacks is 'PURELY' a result of their own doing. But he has repeated over and over again that there are things we can do to cchange our situation, and one of the first things is by mothers and fathers being parents to these children.

When a person like Dyson argues with Cosby's comments, what he's saying is that there's NOTHING that these people can do to change their current situation, short of asking the White man for help. All Cosby is saying is for these people to take some responsibility for their actions.

This time I'll leave with an excerpt from The Tavis Smiley interview on this very issue:

-------------------
Tavis: You said this...

"I'm talking about these people who cry when their son is standing there in an orange [prison jumpsuit]... Where were you when he was 2? Where were you when he was 12? Where were you when he was 18, and how come you don't know he had a pistol? And where is the father?..."

Cosby: Yes. Questions. Questions.

Tavis: All kinds of folk, as you can imagine, have had things to say--as you well know--over the last week and a half about what you said. You've thrilled some, you have engaged others, you have outraged still others. Cornel West was on our radio show today. I want to play a clip of what Cornel West had to say about you, and then I want to offer another perspective about what you've had to say. First, though, let's hear a clip from Princeton professor Cornel West.

Cornel West: And there's no doubt in my mind, when you look at who Cosby is, where he comes from in Philadelphia, that he's speaking out of great compassion and trying to get folk to get on the right track, 'cause we've got some brothers and sisters who are not doing the right things, just like in times in our own lives, we don't do the right thing. We need to be corrected lovingly.

He is trying to speak honestly and freely and lovingly, and I think that's a very positive thing. We know Bill Cosby's not on the right wing. He's not Clarence Thomas, he's not Ward Connelly. We know him to be someone who, over 50 years, his 40 years in his artistic career, to be in deep solidarity with the black people's struggle, and people's struggle as a whole.

Tavis: So, Mr. C, is it--I'm trying to figure out how to phrase this. Is it your right or your responsibility to check black folk, as it were, when you feel they need to be checked? Have you earned that right, or is it a responsibility that you've inherited?

Cosby: You all are late. I said this at Howard University 6 years ago. I've said it in the company of audiences--African American audiences.

Tavis: So why'd it get picked up now? Was it the event?

Cosby: It was the white man who got the word from somebody who was there, who called the white man, who put it in the white paper, which is called the Washington Post. And from that, they left out Mr. Cosby saying 50%. They left out the part about fathering, and they certainly left out "We've got to take back the neighborhood and the responsibility--take it back." Then they added something that I think was incorrect, that the people came out stone-faced, stunned. I don't think they were. And I heard the audience a couple of times saying, "yes," people applauding.

Responsibility? No, a pain. I'm really in pain. And I want it stopped. I want people to get together, and I want people to take their neighborhood back. Hey, man, you know, to be--I've traveled around all the different cities, and to turn on the TV or the news at 5:00, and I read that some child, 12-year-old, shot. Whether it's Dayton, Ohio; Wilberforce, Ohio; Pennsylvania, Mississippi. And for me, it's painful. That's a life gone. And then when they catch the person that did it, that's another life gone. Where are we? Who are we? 50% dropout in school. 60 to 70% of our incarcerated are illiterate.
----------------------

Its one thing if you think he is talking 'too harshly' or 'should consider their feelings', and I can understand those complaints. But to generalize his comments the way Dyson does to put him as a problem in Black America is just stupid. Cosby said that he made these comments 6 years ago. Well I can post speeches on here from 10 years ago that say the same things that Cosby is saying, sometimes in even harsher language. But the difference is that the people making these comments were praised for having 'morality'. Cosby is being called a 'hypocrite'.

Yeah, somebody's a hypocrite, but I've got a feeling it ain't Cosby.
quote:
Originally posted by Blake Manner:

My bringing up Enis wasn't to try to find THE reason for Cosby's change.
<<<<<< BUT >>>>>>
losing your son is as good a motive for becoming more vocal as anything else.


Roll Eyes


quote:
People change their minds. It happens.


And some folk do exactly what Dyson described. Some folk, even Black folk in the Middle-Class and beyond LOSE THEIR DAMN MINDS! But hey, that's a "change", too. But none of this "people change" rhetoric says can chart, accurately, how or when that change occurred and nothing says that the change doesn't carry with it some of the same type of attitudes as before.

The use of Dyson pointing out THE TRUTH About Cosby - and he's hasn't vowed that he is a "changed man" (See Malcolm X) - is having a frame of reference to know where Cosby is coming from. In the absence of evidence that says Cosby had done a complete about-face with respect to his ideas that had him shy away from STANDING/SPEAKING UP AGAINST RACISM (damn, remarkable consistency here) at a critical point in history that was the very backdrop he used and played up IN HIS RHETORIC... Well, suffice it to say that there is no evidence that Cosby has changed, in any significant way, how he views our situation.

Just like I asked KWELI... I won't someone to honestly tell me how Cosby's inane rants make any kind of logical sense and hence = TRUTH (as so many claim):

"With all the systemic problems of racism, the solution is parenting."


quote:
And the fact that Cosby is doing something now that he didn't want to do earlier in his career doesn't make him a hypocrite


Sorry, holmes... Cosby isn't doing something now that he didn't want to do earlier. I mean, he's not STANDING UP or SPEAKING OUT AGAINST RACISM. Whether he fancies himself as a spokesman or Black "leader" now is really not the point. In a society with the problems of racism like America (has or) had, it's easy to beat up on Black folk.

Sorry, some of us don't do INTERNALIZED RACISM or SELF-LOATHING.


quote:
Tell me, if Michael Jordan decided tomorrow to make a comment on politics would Black America be offended because of that - even though he declared that he was not interested in politics during his playing days?


And please make your points by sticking to Cosby and what he said. Rhetorical questions won't help. There is no reason to believe that Jordan would be any different if he chose to get up on stage and castigate and denigrate Black people... excuse me... Lower Economic folk the way Cosby has.

But you can share what you thought was the point of invoking MJ and why you must have thought there would be a difference even when NJ did have the Civil Rights Movement that he was shying away from - a period of great significance and importance in the African-American consciousness.
Since I was challenged to provide Cosby quotes, I can just go from source to source to provide Cosby's side of the issue.

Tavis: Let me put some context to our conversation. But there are a few quotes that you made at this speech a week or so ago that have been pretty much everywhere. And for those who have been reading or hearing about this, let me just read some of these things, and I want to let you say what you want to say about it. But I picked a few of them out. Here's the first one.

"People marched and were hit in the face with rocks to get an education and now we've got these knuckleheads walking around... The lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal. These people are not parenting. They are buying things for their kids"”$500 sneakers for what? And won't spend $200 for Hooked On Phonics."

Cosby: Now, wait. We go one at a time? Oh, OK. All of 'em?

Tavis: No, just 3 or 4 of 'em. Just 3 or 4 quick ones. Is that OK?

Cosby: Let's do this one.

Tavis: Let's do this one. Let's take that first.

Cosby: The mistake I made was not in clarifying that I wasn't talking about "all." I think that unless it's later on, I think I said prior to this, the 50% dropout. I think I said that prior to this, "50% dropout in school." Very, very important, because with that, that means 50% of our African American males, from grade 9 through 12, in certain parts of the city, have no education.

Now I'm also listening to what is a new language, and it's a new language in the area, and it's only good for the people you come in contact living in that area. It's no good on Wall Street. It's no good at Temple University. It's no good filing and understanding an employment waiver or blank.

What I'm saying here, and the mistake I made was... In saying that there are people who are striving and working in the lower economic area, the people who are not holding up their end is quite obvious to me. And that happens to be those people who don't have a clue in terms of what education, learning standard English, math, and graduating from school, what that has for them in terms of empowerment. Many of them, after they drop out, they have to turn around and come all the way back in again. That's not bad for those who want to drop out and come back in again, but we want--I want more voices in the home challenging the child to not just stay in school, 'cause I've always been against saying to children, "stay in school". I've always wanted to add "study" because that's a part of it.

I don't think that there's a greater high... I challenge any high--heroin, marijuana, booze or anything--that if you know your stuff and you go into an exam knowing that you know it, there's no better high. There's no better high than sitting down and then opening the booklet and reading your first question and saying to yourself, "Who made up this question? This person didn't-- You know, I'm ready to go." There's no greater high than walking out after the exam and saying, "How did you answer?" Or being the second or third person out of there.

So, I think that we have not given our children a true picture of our history and that's when I-- I mean, to look at those people, Brown vs. the Board, and then to think about Kenneth Clark and Mamie Clark, deceased, sitting someplace in New York, and Kenneth is a friend of ours, and Kenneth in the last 5 or 6 years would just say, "What's going on? What's going on?" And he's speaking specifically about these people who are changing the language, who are not studying, who--go ahead.
What are you doing being "pissed" off when Cosby said:

"For me there is a time ... when we have to turn the mirror around", "Because for me it is almost analgesic to talk about what the white man is doing against us. And it keeps a person frozen in their seat, it keeps you frozen in your hole you're sitting in."


Hmmm.... Sounds like Dyson spoke directly to what Cosby said there.

quote:
One of those stereotypes is that poor blacks are lazy citizens who victim-monger while bemoaning the "white man." Such a view is undercut by what we know about the black poor: Most of them work, and few are paralyzed by their astute perceptions of persistent racism.


Powerfully demonstrated. Given the reality, it's Cosby who is the one who is particularly given to making crazy "generalizations", as Faheem said. That wouldn't be much of a problem if that wasn't what the bulk of his RHETORIC rested on: Tired generalizations and little quaint comments which, while they may make a good soundbite, they ain't got much to offer in the way of a solid, sound bit of information that tells the whole story.

Speaking of that... you wanted to make a point about what Dyson supposedly doesn't "acknowledge" well... Well... Well, let's see you apply that across the board.

Please tell us with actual quotes how Cosby has accounted for how "some" of the problems in Black America are NOT Black people's "fault" (funny word, "fault")... even in part. I mean, that PARENTING = SOLUTION TO RACISM thing seems to throw a wrench in that. Seems pretty clear that Cosby doesn't think "racism" even SYSTEMATIC racism matters much at all as it relates to "problems in Black America."

BTW... Can you show me where that island is: Black America.
quote:
When a person like Dyson argues with Cosby's comments, what he's saying is that there's NOTHING that these people can do to change their current situation, short of asking the White man for help. All Cosby is saying is for these people to take some responsibility for their actions.


B-Manner... The game stops here.

Now, ironically, you have the power and privilege to interpret the things other people say but that something that doesn't set well with you when Dyson appear to do that - interpret the meaning of Cosby's CALL OUT / Blame The Poor Tour.

I mean, going around the country and saying, in essence, "YOU CAN'T BLAME THE WHITE MAN" is pretty hard to mistake as anything but an effort to CONVINCE Black people, them poor Black people... them Lower Economic Folk that "that their lot in life is purely of their own making."

QUOTE Cosby to show where he's talked about "THEIR LOT IN LIFE" and who and what is responsible for it.

Like I said, you talked about Dyson, now show were Cosby (quoting Cosby and please find more than just Lip Service) talks about the problems that impact Black America that are not "Black People's FAULT", in whole or in part.


quote:
Its one thing if you think he is talking 'too harshly' or 'should consider their feelings', and I can understand those complaints. But to generalize his comments the way Dyson does to put him as a problem in Black America is just stupid.


Well, until you can reconcile Cosby's crazy remarks about a "50% Drop Out" rate (not to be confused with some Manhattan Instutite interpolated graduation rate) and his PARENTING = SOLUTION TO RACISM... What's stupid are the baseless objections to how Cosby is being critiqued on the CONTENT (and factual CONTEXT) of his speeches and how, using your powers of interpretation, that DISCONNECTED RHETORIC comes across and shows how not much of anything one would suspect from a guy like Cosby who was MIA in the Civil Rights Movement was in its heyday.

quote:
First notice the comments from Jessie Jackson on this very night.

"It's the same thing I've been saying since 1976," said Jesse L. Jackson, the president of the Rainbow/PUSH group, who was at Cosby's side on Thursday. He criticized rap-music artists who liberally use derogatory terms for blacks and women, as well as black and white listeners who blithely repeat the words. "It's unacceptable," Jackson said.

Now I'm going to post another article where Cosby again stresses his point.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0407/02/pzn.01.html

COSBY: We've got too many children in prison. Children in prison. We've got too many young girls who don't know how to parent, turning themselves into parents.

Ladies and gentlemen, our little 8-year-old boys, 9-year-old boys having erections and only acting out that which they see and hear on some C.D.

O'BRIEN: At Thursday's annual conference of Jesse Jackson's Rainbow/PUSH Coalition Bill Cosby was direct.

COSBY: The more you invest in that child, the more you're not going to let some C.D. tell your child how to curse and how to say the word nigger is an acceptable word. You're so hip with nigger, but you can't even spell it.

O'BRIEN: Jesse Jackson supports Cosby's speech.

REV. JESSE JACKSON, RAINBOW/PUSH COALITION: Responsibility is a weapon and Bill was essentially saying we must stop recycling self- degrading, self-destructive behavior en route to achieving our basic civil rights goals of equal opportunity.

O'BRIEN: Bill Cosby has spoke before about the source of problems facing African-Americans.

COSBY: You can't just blame white people for this, man! You can't! Whether I'm right wing or left! Some people are not parents.

I notice the word 'just' in there. Whether or not your quote is correct or not. My point is that Cosby is not saying to ignore the problems that White men are causing in Black America. But there are things that we can do without asking for a freakin handout.

Dyson and so many others just want to put his views into a box where he's accepting what White America is doing to us. I haven't seen any such quotes. But what I have seen are quotes by Cosby stating that there is MUCH MORE that we, as Black Americans should be doing. These two statements are not the same. And just because cosby said the later, doesn't mean that he's implying the former.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
When a person like Dyson argues with Cosby's comments, what he's saying is that there's NOTHING that these people can do to change their current situation, short of asking the White man for help. All Cosby is saying is for these people to take some responsibility for their actions.


B-Manner... The game stops here.

Now, ironically, you have the power and privilege to interpret the things other people say but that something that doesn't set well with you when Dyson appear to do that - interpret the meaning of Cosby's CALL OUT / Blame The Poor Tour.

I mean, going around the country and saying, in essence, "YOU CAN'T BLAME THE WHITE MAN" is pretty hard to mistake as anything but an effort to CONVINCE Black people, them poor Black people... them Lower Economic Folk that "that their lot in life is purely of their own making."

QUOTE Cosby to show where he's talked about "THEIR LOT IN LIFE" and who and what is responsible for it.

Like I said, you talked about Dyson, now show were Cosby (quoting Cosby and please find more than just Lip Service) talks about the problems that impact Black America that are not "Black People's FAULT", in whole or in part.



Why do people keep using terms like 'in essense' or 'essentially' or practically. His speeches have been about personal responsibility and being parents. He hasn't made excuses for the White man putting Black America down! He has just been saying that we are not holding up our end of the bargain.

AND YES. IF DYSON SAYS THAT COSBY SHOULDN'T PREACH THAT WE HAVE OPPORTUNITIES IF WE HOLD UP OUR END OF THE BARGAIN, THEN DYSON IS PREACHING THAT WE HAVE NO OPPORTUNITIES WITHOUT ASKING THE WHITE MAN FOR HELP!

And no matter what quotes you give on Dyson saying the opposite. His very comments against Cosby are actions towards this very point.
quote:
First notice the comments from Jessie Jackson on this very night.

"It's the same thing I've been saying since 1976,"


Dude... you're late. That Cosby is technically saying the "same thing" that's been said before is no new news. Indeed, that's one of the criticisms against this Cosby promotion.

I know I've said it here if others haven't but Min. Farrakhan and others have said some of the same things "technically" but you don't hear Middle/Upper Class Black America enthusiastically yelling "Amen!" and promoting Farrakhan. Otherwise who would have long since eclipsed Jesse, Colin Powell or any Black public figure in terms of popularity given how SELF-HELP is a staple of the NOI's well-established ideas.

In fact, Cosby told his Christian brothers and sisters to follow that NOI model (reference cleaning up drug-infested neighborhoods). Yet, I've heard no clamouring or large parade of applause for Cosby saying that. Not many if any headlines saying that. Indeed, those saying "Cosby told the truth" hardly ever, if ever reference that. It's clear how self-serving this is for some.

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Blake Manner:

Why do people keep using terms like 'in essense' or 'essentially' or practically. .


Well, besides having a sense of integrity and wanting to state things accurately by not saying "this is what he said" when the actual words he chose my have been different... it's clear people "keep using those terms" or any of those they choose because they didn't get the memo that only you and people who favor Cosby have the Power Of Interpretation.

quote:
His speeches have been about personal responsibility and being parents. He hasn't made excuses for the White man putting Black America down!


Sorry but when he says:
"With all the systemic problems of racism, the solution is parenting."

... I beg to differ. The semantics of it all don't matter. Somehow, you're willing to let him slide when he DIDN'T do what you wanted to require from Dyson: speak about the problems and how ALL of them are not our "fault" even while saying some of them are (and how).

quote:
He has just been saying that we are not holding up our end of the bargain.


Blake, you don't even want to go there. WHAT BARGAIN?

THE RHETORIC and GAMES STOP HERE.

quote:
I guess I'll finally hear someone lay out what everybody's "part of the bargain" is/was.


I'm guessing you're ready to break it down. I appreciate that. You have the floor.

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

Dude... you're late. That Cosby is technically saying the "same thing" that's been said before is no new news. Indeed, that's one of the criticisms against this Cosby promotion.

I know I've said it here if others haven't but Min. Farrakhan and others have said some of the same things "technically" but you don't hear Middle/Upper Class Black America enthusiastically yelling "Amen!" and promoting Farrakhan. Otherwise who would have long since eclipsed Jesse, Colin Powell or any Black public figure in terms of popularity given how SELF-HELP is a staple of the NOI's well-established ideas.

In fact, Cosby told his Christian brothers and sisters to follow that NOI model (reference cleaning up drug-infested neighborhoods). Yet, I've heard no clamouring or large parade of applause for Cosby saying that. Not many if any headlines saying that. Indeed, those saying "Cosby told the truth" hardly ever, if ever reference that. It's clear how self-serving this is for some.



Ok, I'm glad you acknowledge that Cosby isn't the first to say these words, I have a hard problem getting people to agree to that.

So I question again, are these words wrong now that Cosby is saying them? I understand your 'fear' that the upper and middle class of Black America is more willing to follow Cosby than Farrakhan, but does that make Cosby wrong?

What I want to hear is somebody to say that "Either Cosby is right, or no matter how much responsibility Black America takes there is no way that there can be progress". Because those are the two sides of the issue.

For Dyson to say that Cosby is wrong, but we should stress personal responsibility, is a contradictorary statement. And the fact that he devoted many hours of his radio program and was able to write a book to make profit on this issue makes me a lot quicker to call him a hypocrite than Cosby.

But what can I say? Maybe the truth is a subjective thing and both sides are right and both sides are wrong at the same time. I dont know.
Dude... You've left a bunch of things you've chosen not to address on the table. I told you THE GAMES ARE OVER.

Once you deal with what's on the table, before you really get to running around like chicken with it head cut off, deal with them. Then and only then can we move on and deal with your other issues.

To be sure, plenty of White folks, racist or otherwise, have and can "say the same thing." Once you wrap your head around that and catch up on the other stuff you've left on the table in the search for validation (or whatever this "getting people to agree") stuff is about... Let me know.

Like I said, you're late. And none of that translates into an "agreement." I keep telling ya'll EVEN THE DEVIL KNOWS THE TRUTH. So that "same thing" stuff is moot. Not unless you want to give me a break down for why Farrakhan and any one else from the longstanding Black Nationalistic tradition that has preached and practiced self-help for years have escaped the mainstream conversation and people act like this is all BRAND NEW.

You got too many Cosby people saying "It's about time somebody spoke up." Dude, you got the wrong guy to be trying to come at with that rhetoric.

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
Originally posted by Blake Manner:

Why do people keep using terms like 'in essense' or 'essentially' or practically. .


Well, besides having a sense of integrity and wanting to state things accurately by not saying "this is what he said" when the actual words he chose my have been different... it's clear people "keep using those terms" or any of those they choose because they didn't get the memo that only you and people who favor Cosby have the Power Of Interpretation.


And just what is this power of interpretation? I've already shown you how two people who read the same quote can get completely different conclusions. But when the basis of the entire article is based on an interpretation of a Cosby quote, it might be nice to include that quote so that your audience can come to the same conclusions. Or is he afraid that we will be able to see how his analysis doesn't quite fit the actions Cosby has done.

quote:

quote:
His speeches have been about personal responsibility and being parents. He hasn't made excuses for the White man putting Black America down!


Sorry but when he says:
"With all the systemic problems of racism, the solution is parenting."

... I beg to differ. The semantics of it all don't matter. Somehow, you're willing to let him slide when he DIDN'T do what you wanted to require from Dyson: speak about the problems and how ALL of them are not our "fault" even while saying some of them are (and how).


See, this is where you're wrong. I don't require anything of Dyson. WHen I was in school, I took a class on journalism. Its a rule that journalists are supposed to try to present both sides of a story. But neither Cosby or Dyson is a journalist. So I have no problem with them stating their opinions. But when Dyson calls Cosby names because he is not stating both sides of it, thats where I have problems.

I know you're probably not a football fan but I like to use football analogies. It is pretty understood that a football team needs both offense and defense to win. Bill Parcells was always a guy who stressed defense; Joe Gibbs stressed offense. But both are winning coaches. And it is possible for the NFL to survive with two different coaches preaching two different philosophies.

So why can'y Black America survive with both Cosby and Dyson? Cosby asking for Blacks to be better parents and take on more responsibility, and Dyson preaching about the laws and the consequences of White America on Black America. These two people in themselves are not contradictory. But when Dyson begins to preach that Cosby shouldn't talk about what irritates him because "None of these [dramatic shifts in the economy, low wages, chronic underemployment, job and capital flight, downsizing and outsourcing, and crumbling inner-city schools.
] can be overcome by the good behavior of poor blacks", it makes Black America look helpless without the help of White America, and I refuse to believe that I am helpless.

quote:

quote:
He has just been saying that we are not holding up our end of the bargain.


Blake, you don't even want to go there. WHAT BARGAIN?


If I'm gonna talk about quotes, maybe I should be a little more formal with mine. Let me rephrase that with a quote from Dyson.
"Personal responsibility is a necessary but insufficient condition for poor blacks to do better."

Notice he says its a necessary condition. So if people are not taking personal responsibility, then they cannot get better. Thats exactly what Cosby is saying, but more elaborate and actually issue by issue. Thats why I say that its hypocritial for Dyson to argue against Cosby.
quote:
Maybe the truth is a subjective thing and both sides are right and both sides are wrong at the same time.


Well, when you say nonsense like that.. What can you say? That is unless you can tell me what that means.

The TRUTH has everything to do with the Totality of The Circumstances and Cosby's comments are considered in that type of context so you can't divorce the aspects of what he says that comes across as "too harsh" from his inaccuracies, or from his curious language of DISDAIN, DISCONNECT and DISTANCE, or from his ridiculous little idiotic, illogical statements (PARENTING = SOLUTION TO RACISM) or from his lack of a consideration of the whole socio-economic picture or from his personal history where he chose NOT to SPEAK OUT AGAINST RACISM but now wants to SPEAK OUT against people who have long since been subject to RACISM which can't not be divorced from who those people are.

We are a product of this racist enviroment. And one thing that shows a distinction between Cosby's rhetoric and the ideas of certain people in the NOI, e.g., is this challenging question:

Can you say that racism isn't at the root or a part of the problems in the Black Community?


For example, if we buy the idea that Black folks don't value education... Well, there's is plenty of reason and information that says those ideas were/are conditioned by American racism. But maybe you view the type of poverty that was on display in New Orleans as "Black People's Fault."

Just as we are not an island as a people in America, neither are our so-called self-created problems disconnected from American society as whole or the historic, if not current manifestation of racism.
IMO
Bill Cosby is provoking us to think and take action. Dyson is right, we need social justice issues addressed as well as encouraging personal responsibility.

Bill's comments have no effect on the people he is talking about. The poor Blacks he is talking about don't care about what he is saying or what anyone else got to say about them. When I mentioned the remarks to someone who could be considered one of the ones he is talking about they just shrug with the attitude, "whatever" and move on to the next subject.
Some of these folks are looking for or busy working their entitlements. The sad commentary to some of these poor Black folks is these entitlements are engineered to keep them poor.
A few Blacks made out during the Great Society era of this nation. But now, America isn't interested in social programs to help children whose inter-city schools don't provide an adequate education, instituting summer programs that provide jobs to Black male teens, or ANY social programs to address some of ills that are plaquing the Black commnunity.
I personally know someone who lives in public housing and earns enough to buy house and live outside of public housing but has taken the attitude they like having all the heat they want without paying. What are we to do with such attitudes? Re-educate, through social programs on home ownership and pride.

IMO
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
When a person like Dyson argues with Cosby's comments, what he's saying is that there's NOTHING that these people can do to change their current situation, short of asking the White man for help. All Cosby is saying is for these people to take some responsibility for their actions.


B-Manner... The game stops here.

Now, ironically, you have the power and privilege to interpret the things other people say but that's something that doesn't set well with you when Dyson appears to do that - interpret the meaning of Cosby's CALL OUT / Blame The Poor Tour...


I did not stutter.


quote:

My point is that Cosby is not saying to ignore the problems that White men are causing in Black America. But there are things that we can do without asking for a freakin handout.


Sorry dude... But that "handout" rhetoric is "accepting" the FRAMING of "The White Man."

Stop running around all over the place and show me the quotes where Cosby has fulfilled your Balance Requirement. That is, quote Cosby and show me where he's taken on "the problems of systematic racism" in his speeches. You felt Dyson was obligated and you were WRONG to say:

Dyson refuses to acknowledge that any of the problems in Black America are (even in part) the fault of Black America itself.


Yet, you've continued in that manner. The only thing that communicates is that your position here is fully invested in some type of emotional attachment you have to your beliefs and/or Cosby and how, you're subject to say just about anything because of your emotional investment. FACTS BE DAMNED...

"Notice how you didn't take time to speak truthfully about Dyson's commentary."

Sorry but you were headed downhill since then.
But Nmaginate, just as our problems are not disconnected from American society, these problems do not depend on the American society for a solution.

Earlier I agreed with your HNIC comments. Are you swaying from them now? Because if there is no HNIC, then there are going to be many different opinions on how to solve these problems in Black America, and Black America shouldn't be so quick to say that a solution is wrong. Even if the solution is merely to take more personal responsibility.
quote:
quote:
He has just been saying that we are not holding up our end of the bargain.
quote:
Blake, you don't even want to go there. WHAT BARGAIN?


Notice he says its a necessary condition. So if people are not taking personal responsibility, then they cannot get better.


NOTICE how I asked you a DIRECT question. Here it is again:

WHAT BARGAIN?

You wanted to regurgi-puke that rhetoric. Spell it out. What is everybody's part of "The Bargain"?

And, once you give my your introductory answer... I want you to go back and quote or reference what THE BARGAIN was as it was laid out during the Civil Rights Movement, who laid it out and what was agreed upon as "everybody's part of the bargain."


quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Diamond:
Bill's comments have no effect on the people he is talking about. The poor Blacks he is talking about don't care about what he is saying or what anyone else got to say about them.


People say Cosby is bad for his comments. I think this one is worse. Are you saying that the poor blacks don't care about personal responsibility? Are you saying that they don't want to do better?

Even more is the theory that maybe the words don't need to go directly from Cosby to the poor Blacks. But just as the churches request us to outreach to our communities and preach the gospel to them, maybe we should also be talking to them about personal responsibility. I can gurantee you that everybody in the poor Black neighborhoods will not just say "whatever". And even those that do, its better for them to have heard it and walked away than to have never heard it all.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
quote:
He has just been saying that we are not holding up our end of the bargain.
quote:
Blake, you don't even want to go there. WHAT BARGAIN?


Notice he says its a necessary condition. So if people are not taking personal responsibility, then they cannot get better.


NOTICE how I asked you a DIRECT question. Here it is again:

WHAT BARGAIN?



"WHAT BARGAIN?"

I shouldn't have used the word bargain. I'm not talking about any bargain and I don't want you thinking that I am. I realize that you may have a preconcieved notion of what the term means so I explained what I meant by my statement. BUT I WASN'T REFERRING TO ANY BARGAIN!
quote:
Originally posted by Blake Manner:

But Nmaginate, just as our problems are not disconnected from American society, these problems do not depend on the American society for a solution.


But nothing. You just showed how you have a very loose grip on reality and a very tenuous grasp of the Dyson quote you just tried to use on your Validation Tour.

NECESSARY BUT INSUFFICIENT complicates your curious rhetoric about "dependency"... oh and that "handout" stuff for sure.

I see you've gone to that Cosby school of logic. I don't know exactly what "problems" you're talking about having "solutions"... SOLUTIONS (I really hope you know what that word means and it's not just something to say because it sounds good) that are INDEPENDENT... but that just flies right in the face of some of that MLK logic that says we are our destiny is interdependent and interrelated.

Black America is not an island. You can "but" all you want. THE RHETORIC STOPS HERE.


quote:
I don't have a Balance Reuirement. you do. I have shown you where Cosby says that he doesn't want to focus on the problems that are caused by white America.

Why do you require that he discuss both sides?

My point in this whole thread has been the statement that all Cosby is preaching is self responsibility. And he even acknowledges that this is not the only problem in Black America, but its the one that pisses him off. So this is the one he chooses to focus on.

You seem to be reading one line of each of my posts and trying to put together some confusing argument that catches me in a contradiction. But I've been naming the quotes earlier and I don't understand what else you can be confused about?
quote:
Originally posted by Blake Manner:

"WHAT BARGAIN?"

I shouldn't have used the word bargain. I'm not talking about any bargain and I don't want you thinking that I am. I realize that you may have a preconcieved notion of what the term means so I explained what I meant by my statement. BUT I WASN'T REFERRING TO ANY BARGAIN!


No. I quoted you accurately and have no idea what you presume to be my "preconceived" notions. No. I quoted you regurgi-puking Cosby's rhetoric. He used the term "BARGAIN" and so did you:

quote:
Why do people keep using terms like 'in essense' or 'essentially' or practically. His speeches have been about personal responsibility and being parents. He hasn't made excuses for the White man putting Black America down! He has just been saying that we are not holding up our end of the bargain.

AND YES. IF DYSON SAYS THAT COSBY SHOULDN'T PREACH THAT WE HAVE OPPORTUNITIES IF WE HOLD UP OUR END OF THE BARGAIN, THEN DYSON IS PREACHING THAT WE HAVE NO OPPORTUNITIES WITHOUT ASKING THE WHITE MAN FOR HELP!

And no matter what quotes you give on Dyson saying the opposite. His very comments against Cosby are actions towards this very point.


So, you wanted to use Cosby's rhetoric and you even wanted to put it in your own little delivery. So, yes. You have to answer for the words you used or just concede that Cosby speeches were full of bloated rhetoric that... Well, in this case, that you can't defend like so many others trying the damn'dest to defend Cosby's BS rhetoric.

I mean, the words have to mean something if Cosby had a point other than running his mouth. So just tell me what that means or, rather, what he meant, by that (what you think he meant) since you're so good at interpreting things.


quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Blake Manner:

I don't have a Balance Reuirement. you do.



This must be another of them "I WASN'T REFERRING TO ANY BARGAIN"... (*scratch that*)... "I shouldn't have used the word bargain" type of phony DENIALS.

This is your BALANCE REQUIREMENT (and, as noted, it was also a lie):

quote:

Michael Eric Dyson has his radio show... [he] refuses to acknowledge that any of the problems in Black America are (even in part) the fault of Black America itself.


That you felt Dyson should and must "acknowledge" something (he already did)... that's you requiring him to have a BALANCED position or, more precisely, one that "acknowledges" the two sides of the issue you've since quoted from Dyson (further illuminating your hapless, perhaps careless LIE):

Personal responsibility is a necessary but insufficient condition for poor blacks to do better.


Oh but don't forget his own words:
The plane of black progress lifts on the wings of personal responsibility and social justice.


You have to explain why you REFUSED to acknowledge that even after it was proven that you were IN ERROR. Explain why instead of acknowledging that Dyson did indeed "acknowledge" the White Man's idea "personal responsibility" (Black folks, we already had our longstanding tradition and preferred lingo for that - DO FOR SELF (self-help)) you launched headlong into your rant (being so emotionally invested) about what "pisses" you off.

I'm not too fond of people LIE and DENY (their lies by lying more or choosing to avoiding dealing with their errors) myself... Just to let you know.


quote:
And he even acknowledges that this is not the only problem in Black America, but its the one that pisses him off. So this is the one he chooses to focus on.


Hmmm... So what was your statement about then:
"Dyson... refuses to acknowledge that any of the problems in Black America are (even in part) the fault of Black America itself."

Clearly, you begrudge Dyson for the type of focus he has. Otherwise, what's the point in saying (and lying about how) "...[he] refuses to acknowledge that any of the problems in Black America are (even in part) the fault of Black America itself."


quote:
You seem to be reading one line of each of my posts and trying to put together some confusing argument that catches me in a contradiction. But I've been naming the quotes earlier and I don't understand what else you can be confused about?


I'm not confused. Never said I was. So I don't even have a clue what you trying to say as you keep avoiding points of mine that complicate the stuff you try to say. You started off WRONG (lying) and you've been backpeddaling ever since.

But you can decode what this is suppose to mean and why you feel like I'm trying to "catch" you with your own words (if you have made them into a self-trapping net that can be used against you):

quote:
I shouldn't have used the word bargain.
____________________ vs. ___________________
... I WASN'T REFERRING TO ANY BARGAIN!


Really, it was a simple question. And you chose to use that rhetoric on your own. Obviously it has meaning to you. Now tell me about that BARGAIN. What was it? What was Cosby referring to?


quote:
Nmaginate ,

First off, lets tone this talk down some from some of the insults you're offering. I don't like insults and I'd appreciate if the negative tones stop.

Secondly on the word 'bargain'. I admitted that when I threw the word in there I didn't have an official 'bargain' negotiated between two parties that I was referring to. I cannot speak for Cosby's comments, but as for mine, All I was saying is that we need to accept personal responsibility. If you refuse to accept that then there's nothing more that I can offer you.

Third, on the 'problems and solutions'. You were the one who offered the statement,
quote:
Just as we are not an island as a people in America, neither are our so-called self-created problems disconnected from American society as whole or the historic, if not current manifestation of racism.
All I was doing is replying to this statemenet with the term problems and solutions. Maybe you define the terms 'problems' and 'solutions' differenly than me. But when I say that the problems and solutions, I'm referring to many of the problems in Black America. If people today can be raised in the ghetto and make it out of the ghetto without the gov't changing the laws, then it can be done again.

It would definately be beneficial for the government to put more money in schools, but a student can still do well in school right now.
It would definately be beneficial for the government to stop the source of drugs in our community, but a person can still say no to drugs and live a drug free lifel
It would definately be beneficial for the media to stop the influx of sex on the television screens, but a person can still abstain from having sex.

You may not see these actions as 'solutions' to the problems in Black America, but every person who is able to avoid one of these situations (and many others) in their life has hust had a success, no matter how large or small of a success you want to call it.

So yes, the problems in Black America have solutions that do not involve waiting for the governemt to do something.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
Originally posted by Blake Manner:

I don't have a Balance Reuirement. you do.



This must be another of them "I WASN'T REFERRING TO ANY BARGAIN"... (*scratch that*)... "I shouldn't have used the word bargain" type of phony DENIALS.

This is your BALANCE REQUIREMENT (and, as noted, it was also a lie):

quote:

Michael Eric Dyson has his radio show... [he] refuses to acknowledge that any of the problems in Black America are (even in part) the fault of Black America itself.


That you felt Dyson should and must "acknowledge" something (he already did)... that's you requiring him to have a BALANCED position or, more precisely, one that "acknowledges" the two sides of the issue you've since quoted from Dyson (further illuminating your hapless, perhaps careless LIE):

Personal responsibility is a necessary but insufficient condition for poor blacks to do better.


Oh but don't forget his own words:
The plane of black progress lifts on the wings of personal responsibility and social justice.


You have to explain why you REFUSED to acknowledge that even after it was proven that you were IN ERROR. Explain why instead of acknowledging that Dyson did indeed "acknowledge" the White Man's idea "personal responsibility" (Black folks, we already had our longstanding tradition and preferred lingo for that - DO FOR SELF (self-help)) you launched headlong into your rant (being so emotionally invested) about what "pisses" you off.

I'm not too fond of people LIE and DENY (their lies by lying more or choosing to avoiding dealing with their errors) myself... Just to let you know.


quote:


See thats called ad hoc reasoning. I never made a declaration that I require both sides to be preached. I named these points to show some of the possibly hypocritical behavior of Dyson.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
That you felt Dyson should and must "acknowledge" something (he already did)... that's you requiring him to have a BALANCED position or, more precisely, one that "acknowledges" the two sides of the issue you've since quoted from Dyson (further illuminating your hapless, perhaps careless LIE):

Personal responsibility is a necessary but insufficient condition for poor blacks to do better.


Oh but don't forget his own words:
The plane of black progress lifts on the wings of personal responsibility and social justice.


You have to explain why you REFUSED to acknowledge that even after it was proven that you were IN ERROR. Explain why instead of acknowledging that Dyson did indeed "acknowledge" the White Man's idea "personal responsibility" (Black folks, we already had our longstanding tradition and preferred lingo for that - DO FOR SELF (self-help)) you launched headlong into your rant (being so emotionally invested) about what "pisses" you off.

I'm not too fond of people LIE and DENY (their lies by lying more or choosing to avoiding dealing with their errors) myself... Just to let you know.


What I was provided with are quotes by Dyson acknowledging personal responsibility (from the very article above, as if I hadn't read them for myself). But what I named was how Dyson acts on a daily basis on his show. If you want to call me a Liar, then go right ahead, but try listening to his show. He needs to read his own words. Maybe then he will challenge Black America more to have personal responsibility on his show.

You say I was caught in a lie. I say that Dyson may have been caught being hypocritical.
And in reference to the 'lie' thing. Notice that I never outright declared Dyson a liar or a hypocrite because I don't listen to his show daily. So there may well have been days when he challenged the personal responsibility of Black America. But when I get a chance to hear it, today for example, all I hear is him take the side against White America saying how wrong they are and how much they are responsible for Black America's problems.
quote:
I know you're probably not a football fan but I like to use football analogies. It is pretty understood that a football team needs both offense and defense to win. Bill Parcells was always a guy who stressed defense; Joe Gibbs stressed offense. But both are winning coaches. And it is possible for the NFL to survive with two different coaches preaching two different philosophies.

So why can'y Black America survive with both Cosby and Dyson? Cosby asking for Blacks to be better parents and take on more responsibility, and Dyson preaching about the laws and the consequences of White America on Black America.


yeah We will progress as a people when we get beyond the "I'm right, you're wrong and I'm going to expend my energies showing the world that you're wrong" mentality. If we could get to a point where we choose to say, "I think you're wrong but you do you and I'll do me. We'll see how it works out in the end. And, Oh Yeah ... Anywhere where our strategy/plan/thoughts intersect, let's collaborate."

The bottom-line is me arguing with you about the "wrongness" of your strategy/plan/thoughts, does absolutely nothing to advance my strategy/plan/thoughts. Unless, of course my strategy/plan/thoughts are solely to impede you and/or gain support for me.

Why is that concept so hard to grasp? Why do we continue to engage/cling to this false binary thought system?

[Personally, I think it is more ego-driven than results/outcome directed.]
quote:
Originally posted by Blake Manner:

See thats called ad hoc reasoning. I never made a declaration that I require both sides to be preached. I named these points to show some of the possibly hypocritical behavior of Dyson.



You "declaring" it is IRRELEVANT. What was the point of you saying that:

[1] When you had the article right there in your face to inform you otherwise?

[2] If you didn't or don't feel like Dyson should have "acknowledged" what's "our fault."


How else would you show his hypocrisy?

Semantics, equivocation, etc., etc. provide you with no cover. You have to answer for the absurdity of making a statement that's CONTRADICTED by the very article you called yourself responding and just how silly it is that you made a false statement but continued to act like it was true.

And while you're talking about faulty reasoning, labeling it and all:

quote:

IF DYSON SAYS THAT COSBY SHOULDN'T PREACH THAT WE HAVE OPPORTUNITIES IF WE HOLD UP OUR END OF THE BARGAIN, THEN DYSON IS PREACHING THAT WE HAVE NO OPPORTUNITIES WITHOUT ASKING THE WHITE MAN FOR HELP!

And no matter what quotes you give on Dyson saying the opposite. His very comments against Cosby are actions towards this very point.


Tell me what type of Logical Fallacy that is.

I already know what to say about this special Power Of Interpretation you accord yourself so freely all the while ranting and getting all emotional (pissed) when Dyson and others say the same type of thing about Cosby. That's why I challenged you to come forth with QUOTES FROM COSBY that show, beyond LIP SERVICE how his comments like PARENTING = SOLUTION TO RACISM don't lend to what he has been criticized for.

Also, decode this:
His very comments against Cosby...

Who is Cosby? I mean, you act like being "against" him is a sin or something. PROOF that you are way too emotionally invested and just can't defend your position.

I mean, you have to go back and re-write that stuff. You want to take the word "BARGAIN" out of it (you didn't mean to say that... Well, WHAT DID YOU MEAN TO SAY?). You have to demonstrate how Dyson has said something as inane as:

quote:

WE HAVE NO OPPORTUNITIES WITHOUT ASKING THE WHITE MAN FOR HELP!


Let me share this nugget with you since you want to use this curious language: The End Of Slavery... The very triumphs of the Civil Rights Movement... All that can be seen as us "asking the White Man" for "help." I mean, if you want to use that convoluted and contorted verbage.

That should further illuminate Robin D.G. Kelley:
"All the self-help in the world will not eliminate poverty or create the number of good jobs needed to employ the African American community."

You posited that "the problems could be solved..." Okay, let's go down the list. Show me how Black America is an island.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:


yeah We will progress as a people when we get beyond the "I'm right, you're wrong and I'm going to expend my energies showing the world that you're wrong" mentality. If we could get to a point where we choose to say, "I think you're wrong but you do you and I'll do me. We'll see how it works out in the end. And, Oh Yeah ... Anywhere where our strategy/plan/thoughts intersect, let's collaborate."

The bottom-line is me arguing with you about the "wrongness" of your strategy/plan/thoughts, does absolutely nothing to advance my strategy/plan/thoughts. Unless, of course my strategy/plan/thoughts are solely to impede you and/or gain support for me.

Why is that concept so hard to grasp? Why do we continue to engage/cling to this false binary thought system?

[Personally, I think it is more ego-driven than results/outcome directed.]


And your ego got in the way on the old thread? Why? On that old thread? You pretended to by "objective"...? WHY?

You don't have no high horse, KWELI.

You're regurgitating some that same stuff from the other thread where you came to Cosby's defense yet couldn't show how Cosby was not guilty of violating the "bottom-line" or how he was "advancing" anything.

Now why is it so hard for you to honest and straightforward? For the life of me, I have no clue as to why so many people hide behind these phony poses only to always have their biases exposed.

As for the "why do we" stuff... pose that to Cosby. This very PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY stuff is propped up by Cosby and others in a very FALSE BINARY schematic. That's exactly why Cosby has been taken to task.

Own your bias. Lofty rhetoric can't and won't hide that.

quote:

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