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In light of all of the recent revelations about corrupt business practices (Enron, Arthur Andersen, Worldcom, Xerox, Martha Stewart, et al - just the very tip of the iceberg?) an interesting question comes to mind. Which should the average American fear most: big business or big government?

Onward and Upward!

[This message was edited by MBM on June 28, 2002 at 04:27 PM.]

© MBM

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That's right! If you just sit on the sidelines of life and do not participate in the society you live in, you get both corrupt big business and corrupt big government.

Remember, both are controlled by people who sometimes fall prey to their negative desires and cross the line. If we as Americans do not get involved and hold elected officials and businesses in our communities accountable for their actions......

Then "big government" and "big business" become fearsome indeed. Of course, with business you can simply choose not to buy their products. You can refuse to add to their profit margin.

However, you cannot stop paying taxes to government unless you leave the country or go to jail. Yet most of those who bash big business totally ignor the underhanded deceptive practices of big government. The waste, the fraud, the mismanagement of government never seems to score the big headlines like Enron and Worldcom.

I just wonder why?

big grin big grin big grin
I say, I trust myself more than I do anyone else. Therefore, I do not want more law that inhibits my ability to blaze my trial to where ever it may lead. I believe government should protect us not lord over us like in other places in the world. If we are not careful, all of us will have a new Massa if we allow government to become so powerful that we no longer can make decisions for ourselves. And handle our business the way we please within reasonable and sensible laws. Just punish those who are crooked and maintain a free enterprise system that reward those with good ideas and hard work and treat employee's and business fairly, that's all I ask.

Regarding the Wall Street Scandals many Democrats want to federalize the accounting industry and many Republicans don't want to do what is needed to limit greed among CEO's, this scares the hell out of me because both attitudes are wrong. Just do what is right, both extremes have the wrong idea about this whole accounting scandal thing, you can see how the influence of lobby money and the hunger for power makes it difficult to hit the target in making good law. Perot (Crazy man) was right, lobbyist need to be taken out of the process of law making. Lawmakers should listen to those who voted them in.

Republicans are just as guilty of supporting cooking the SSI books to fool the public as much as Democrats, they are in it together no doubt. All of them are puppets to lobbyists and the rich who wave money in their faces and the allure of power is hard to deflect. Criminal laws need to be in place to severely punish politicians who take money for votes and make law with loopholes in favor of who paid them the most. The real corruption is in government, the rich are under law like the poor the difference is the rich can influence changes in laws with their filthy lobby money.

Because of the corporate scandals lobby money is having less influence to stop new laws or the inforcement of current law that will punish crooked CEO's because of public anger at CEO's who will risk the livelihood of 1000's of employees and billions of dollars to enrich themselves. Lobbyists are up against the poor confidence in the stock market. Until new laws or the enforcement of current laws with teeth are in place to insure correct accounting statements and punishment for rich greedy crooks, confidence will not return until something is done.

The reason all the accounting scandals are happening is because when the stock market was flying high it was a source of capital for companies to run the business to make loans and hide their debt for at least the last 10 years or so. Accounting statements show low debt, good earnings, which were blatant accounting lies to draw investor money. Now that their stock ICON is not creating capital by drawing in investor money for them to use to run their businesses they are being exposed because they cannot pay their bills with real money from profits and hard revenue they ripped from the business. 4 or 5 trillion dollars have been taken out of the stock market and put in safer investements such as money market and federal bonds.

Don't think this just happens in the USA, it is super much worse in other countries where the rich absolutely control the government. All monarchies and totalitarian, socialist countries and most all 3rd world countries like Mexico, in fact most all of S. America is steeped in blatant corruption.

Evil and greed can only be fought with law and an aggressive and educated population. Evil is a part of human nature we can only contend against it. It's hard to find anywhere that the evil rich do not have profound control or influence of the government. But as long as a country is run by laws and put in place by those who are voted in by the masses there is always a chance to reform and improve. And you can see this happening regarding the recent accounting scandals, this is good.

Be thankful that you live in a country where lawmakers are elected to local and Federal seats, who have to work in a system of checks and balances with a free press unlike many other nations in the world.

The greed of the rich is being exposed for what it is, evil that is seriously harming the masses. Now the masses are giving more attention to this area because we are being hit in the pockets and we just can't afford to ignore the corruption of the rich. I think these accounting scandals will help target the crooks.

Greedy CEO's need to be put in their place, in jail with all of their ill gotten assets taken from them, but it won't happen unless we the people do something about it.

As long we have the notion that nothing can be done about it then we are as weak as water. I for one believe in the people as the U.S. Constitution wisely targeted power to come from.

[This message was edited by JuneBug on July 26, 2002 at 02:17 PM.]
I agree with everyone here, keep government small and corporations honest.

Look at the chart here:Worldwide corruption

It measures how corrupt various countries are *perceived* to be. The lower the score, the less corrupt the country is thought to be. The U.S. easily beats other countries (Italy, China, and Nigeria for example), but I'd like to see our scores get better. I'd like to be able to trust that my boss isn't stealing my pension fund. I'd like for other people outside the U.S. to continue thinking it's good to do business with us.

C'mon, we can at least beat Canada, can't we?
I see politicians as the whores of big business. They are bought, paid for, used to satisfy BB's lust, and then discarded when a better whore comes along.

But I tend to fear big business more than big government only because we have a piece of paper 9called the constitution) that if utilized can check government. There is nothing to check big business.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:

In light of all of the recent revelations about corrupt business practices (Enron, Arthur Andersen, Worldcom, Xerox, Martha Stewart, et al - just the very tip of the iceberg?) an interesting question comes to mind. Which should the average American fear most: big business or big government?


Current thoughts?
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
In light of all of the recent revelations about corrupt business practices (Enron, Arthur Andersen, Worldcom, Xerox, Martha Stewart, et al - just the very tip of the iceberg?) an interesting question comes to mind. Which should the average American fear most: big business or big government?

Onward and Upward!

[This message was edited by MBM on June 28, 2002 at 04:27 PM.]



Wasn't "Big Government" a myth created by those who love Big Business without question?

Notice that now these I-Hate-Big-Government types are in power, they're not shrinking government at all... the government is still big... They've only reduced government's capacity to help people ... and then greatly expanded government's ability to control the people...
I've had some 'bad' experiences in watching 'business', big and small (as in less than 600 employees).

The accummulation of those 'pots of money' are great temptations to those who are charged with 'watching' it, or applying some stewardship to its use.

I am impressed with words from both 'Lea' and 'HonestBrother'

I agree with everyone here, keep government small and corporations honest.---Lea

Wasn't "Big Government" a myth created by those who love Big Business without question?---HonetBrother

I also think the comments of K4R are on the money.

I think both are our adversary. One holds you while the other beats you up.

They take turns,

Unfortunately, your back is always turned on one or the other.

You need all the help you can get.

This is true mostly because we still fail/refuse to use the power that is inherent in our vote.

PEACE

Jim Chester
The dividing line betweent the two is extremely fuzzy. On a reletively public level we see the influence of big business on big government via campaign contributions. But on a much less public level there is the movement of employees of big government moving into big business jobs when they leave the government and vice versa. So if government employees intend to join big business aren't they going to make policies that help big business while supposedly in government service?

McNamara who became secretary of defense during the Vietnam War was a president at Ford Motor Company when Kennedy asked him to take the job.

Another factor in this whole thing is computer technology. Electronic computers came into existence with World War II, the biggest war in history up to that point. Government and business saw how much data processing had to be done to handle the logistics of that war. A UNIVAC computer predicted that Eisenhower would win the election when plenty of people were expecting him to lose. The power of electronic data processing make BIG business and BIG government possible.

Now the question is: Do cheap computers and the global internet make BIG REVOLUTION possible?

umbrarchist
I agree with HonestBrother and Umbrarchist. Big Government and Big Business are two sides of the same damn coin and both spell disaster for the people (except for the wealthy ownership class).

I'd have to say that Big Government was possibly just slightly less evil because at least a government can be somewhat controlled democratically. A bureaucrat can at least be possibly voted out where a private business owner can't. But this isn't to say that I'm a Big Government-lover.

What we need is BIG REVOLUTION. I think the economy and the government should be owned and controlled by Big Society.

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