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For years we've been trying to figure out what a "black conservative" really is; this, in contrast, to a conservative who happens to be black. We discount those who traditionally call themselves that because in reality, it seems that they could care less about black people. The Wards and Clarences and Armstrongs seem to have no interest in identifying a uniquely African American agenda via their conservatism. They believe that African America's problems can be "fixed" generally through the adoption of the over-all (white) conservative agenda. They see no uniqueness to our position in this country. Furthermore, they see no need for America to "repay" us for anything. In the final analysis, their blackness seems to be more of nuisance to them, as opposed to something that they cherish as both a core part of their identity as well as their true birthright.

I was thinking over the weekend about my notions that "working the system" politically, along with supporting capitalism, executed in a more human-centered way, are the best ways for us to generally improve our lot here in America. I thought about some of the dialog that I've had with Oshun Auset, Nmaginate, and others who disagree with those positions. I pensively wondered perhaps whether my quest for a true "Black Conservative" should really end with me. Confused Again, we pretty much dismiss the current black neo-cons as really not having any interest in our community at all. Does that then mean that someone like me - who holds the interests and future of African America closely to his heart, who loves his people and his Motherland, who is able to clearly see the repugnant ways in which our country operates, but who still sees 'the system' as something that we can manipulate to our advantage - is an example of the real "black conservative"? Eek

Now I am absolutely sickened at the prospect of being called that. I have nothing in common with the black folks who call themselves conservative today. But if we look at the continuum of ideologies and approaches that exist within the community of those dedicated to our liberation, perhaps that is what I am. I strongly support just about every liberal/progressive pro-black position there is, but am I a "conservative" because of the approach I favor for our liberation? Can you be a conservative and also strongly support reparations, affirmative action, AFDC et al, universal health care, public schools, unions, fairer tax laws, etc., etc.? Can you be a conservative yet also strongly support African America's embrace of a broader Pan African identity and agenda? Can you be a conservative yet also believe that the government should play a role in 'making us whole' for all we have invested in this country?

I don't know. I certainly know that our current black neo-cons won't embrace me. Neither will the broader conservative movement. Nevertheless, what do you think?

© MBM

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Lol...You a conservative? Hell no!

I would say that you are a believer in capitalism...I wouldn't even call you a capitalist. Not only because I wouldn't want to insult you like that( Razz) but because to be a capitalist you have to have capital...Which nobody but the corporate and political elite do. They also don't labour, they are not workers.

But a conservative? Hell no!

You are a social liberal and a fiscal liberal too.

I just think you have an impossible mission ahead trying to make a system centered on "capital" more human centered... It's not designed for that... but that still does NOT, I repeat NOT make you a conservative.

Even the most staunch communist wouldn't call you that!

Now go wash your mouth out with soap for using such horrible language. Calling yourself such vulgar names is not permitted! winkgrin
That clicking sound you just heard was Kevin41 putting MBM in his crosshairs...

Actually, though, I was thinking about this same exact thing this past weekend. There's a weekly black talk show here that airs on Sunday, and the topic was HIV in black women, especially re: the "downlow" phenomenon. Michael Baisden's relationship-based show (which I understand you can get in atlanta now, MBM) talked about the same thing the other day. Between these two shows, they had all of these speakers and callers on, babbling on about the need for "education" about HIV, about how the problem with the DL is that black people are so anti-gay, and that there needs to have outreach, and understanding, and all of this Kumbaya, Hands Across America type stuff that I'm getting a little tired of.

It was during yesterday's show that I realized something. The people who care the most about this issue -- about black people, about women, about HIV sufferers, and about the gay community -- tend to be to the left. But the more effective approaches to curbing the spread of HIV in our communities are precisely the type of approaches that the left tends to shun and demonize.

Pushing for the passage of laws criminalizing sexual behavior among those who are HIV positive, and laws making it easy to enforce them, would never be advocated among those who truly seem to care about this problem. Regarding a right to privacy, such laws would force wrongdoers to understand that, since rights come with concomitant responsibilities, there is no right to privately spread HIV.

Then, I thought about it, and I realized that a lot of views I have are quite similar to this. I'm very big on law and order, capitalism, and school vouchers. My support for affirmative action is not absolute. I still don't favor the idea of slave reparations, or same-sex marriage. That's when I though about you, MBM, and your years-long quest on this board to find an honest-to-goodness black conservative agenda. I have to conclude that I am as close to a real "black conservative" as you're ever gonna find. The difference between negro-cons (I prefer the term "neo-coon" myself, but that's pro'lly just 'cause I made it up) and me is that 1) to me it's about the means to OUR collective end, while to them their end seems to be more psychological abandonment of our people; and 2) my ideology is pretty much based on my own personal philosophies, whereas theirs is something that was handed to them by white Republicans.

So what do u think? You've followed my posts on this site for years. You've had discussions with me on all of these issues. You've seen me disagree at times with you (MBM), Faheem, Nmaginate, Kevin41, Noah, and on the flip side, B Bankins, Independent Man (LOL -- what a clown), and the rest of those jokers. You've noticed common philosophical threads through my posts, and the positions really haven't changed. Based on my posts, do I qualify? I would guess you'd say no, otherwise you'd've already suggested it. But if not, why not?
This is off topic but...

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
It was during yesterday's show that I realized something. The people who care the most about this issue -- about black people, about women, about HIV sufferers, and about the gay community -- tend to be to the left. But the more effective approaches to curbing the spread of HIV in our communities are precisely the type of approaches that the left tends to shun and demonize.

Pushing for the passage of laws criminalizing sexual behavior among those who are HIV positive, and laws making it easy to enforce them, would never be advocated among those who truly seem to care about this problem. Regarding a right to privacy, such laws would force wrongdoers to understand that, since rights come with concomitant responsibilities, there is no right to privately spread HIV.


I'm about as far left as you can get, being a socialist is the extreme left...but I would be an advocate of implementing such measures. The problem is the "left" that is against such measures is pandering to the gay vote. They aren't socialists...although they may have those leanings. They are largely looking out for the democratic vote and therefore are afraid to alienate any of the traditional demo. voting blocks...like gays. Not that HIV is a gay man's disease...But a particular political party's stance on any HIV subject does effects their gay vote. What kind of civil iberties are being upheld people are legally allowed to take other's lives without a warning or reason?

I haven't been posting that long, and maybe I missed the "conservativism" in your posts, but I wouldn't classify you as a Black conservative whatsoever...(neo-coon ...I like that BTW)...but then again, I may be going off of the working definition of a Black conservative(Armstron Williams type)...which we all seem to dispise. Maybe instead of using that word, which implies such a negative imagery, you should re-name what you and MBM think of as your conservative ideologies aine they are in a cpmpletely different category that these sell-outs. The word "conservative" has so much stigma...I don't think it fits you guys.

Now you go wash your mouth out with soap too for using such fowl language in refferance to yourself... Big Grin
You know, Vox, I happen to believe that many, if not most of us, have a little more of a conservative thought process than we'd like to believe and definitely more than we'd wish to admit to ...Eek Given the choice between the lesser of two evils ... well, being to the left is a good a place to be as any.

I probably would call you as close to a real Black conservative "as you're ever gonna find." Big Grin However, I also think that for the many of us who do kinda lean to the "right" way of thinking every now and then, whether it be financial, social, political or whatever, there needs to exist for us a more of a political middle-of-the-road type thinking wherein a successful platform could be raised that might possibly get us the third party we so desperately need if we are going to achieve any kind of equality on a political basis in this country. Neither side has it right ... so why side with one or the other? Confused

I happen to believe that we'd be able to do that better and faster if we were to first organize ourselves and then use the power generated by that to step up to the plate and play them on their own terms. This 'win-a-case' here and 'gain-a-right' there and 'get-a-little-money-thrown-at-you' all the other place is just moving a little too slow for me. I mean we're in our, what, 140th year of fighting for equal rights in this country? Confused But too many people believe it is the best and/or only way to go about it. And as long as that is where the focus is, that's going to be the best we can do. Roll Eyes
'...an example of the real "black conservative"?---MBM

I think you are a realist.

The worst times in my life have been when I tried to constuct myself in a way others approved.

Don't bother. They really don't care. AND...it is always not who you are.

It is who someone else wants you to be.

Stop looking in the mirror.

Look through the windshield.

That is where you are going.


PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Neither side has it right ... so why side with one or the other? Confused...

...I happen to believe that we'd be able to do that better and faster if we were to first organize ourselves and then use the power generated by that to step up to the plate and play them on their own terms...

...But too many people believe it is the best and/or only way to go about it. And as long as that is where the focus is, that's going to be the best we can do. Roll Eyes


thumbsup
I think in order to move forward, you would have to define what a "conservative" is. What does it mean to you? How would you define a liberal?

Working within the "system", in my mind, does not make one a "conservative" by conventional definition, it just means that your approach may be different that some other posters here.
social versus political conservatism...black people are socially conservative (family, religion, etc.) but politically liberal based on the fact that ALL of our rights & gains have come via liberal politics. Conservative politics has been nothing but punitive with adverse effects on black people. I am referring to reducing educational and professional opportunities and retracting social services that we were forced to depend upon at one time due to the systematic disenfranchisement associated with jim crow.........
I also think the most effective an African American-American can do is apply himself politicallly as an African American without regard 'bent.'

I think Kevin41 describes it well.

No matter what position you take, it will be interpreted in terms of the duality of your circumstance.

You, we, are Americans who are African American. Politics, society, and economic decisionmakers see us first and foremost in that respect. The only things that will cause them to modify their view are power and money.

Assertion of our socio-political identity IS our power.

PEACE

Jim Chester

PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Can you be a conservative and also strongly support reparations, affirmative action, AFDC et al, universal health care, public schools, unions, fairer tax laws, etc., etc.? Can you be a conservative yet also strongly support African America's embrace of a broader Pan African identity and agenda? Can you be a conservative yet also believe that the government should play a role in 'making us whole' for all we have invested in this country?


The answer is NO. These things are diametrically opposed to what it means to be a conservative in America today. For one to be conservative (and I say this without any concern as to how it is received by those Black folk who think of themselves as conservative) one must be willing to kiss white folk ass, hate themselves and their people and ascribe to the B.S. belief that the lack of personal responsibility created our condition and sustains our condition as a people. This same mentality also buys into the belief that competition fuels capitalism when the truth is exploitation feeds and sustains capitalism.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:

I was thinking over the weekend about my notions that "working the system" politically, along with supporting capitalism, executed in a more human-centered way, are the best ways for us to generally improve our lot here in America. I thought about some of the dialog that I've had with Oshun Auset, Nmaginate, and others who disagree with those positions. I pensively wondered perhaps whether my quest for a true "Black Conservative" should really end with me. Confused
MBM, I think you've highlighted the distinction in your first paragraph. Whether we agree philosophically in the final analysis is of little concern, to me. Given that we do see the uniqueness of our situation as a people and the need for a specific focus and agenda because of that is really the most important thing.

While I reserve my right to vehemently and passionate disagree with you (philosophically), more than anything I respect you because, unlike Black Conservatives, I have no reason to doubt your commitment to our people -- in word or deed.

Our disagreements are really classical ones. Ones that have been so for some time and ones I have come to accept and, again, respect because its the commitment to our people and those things that will liberate us regardless as to what they are and what form they come in that's important.

And I do consider VOX especially conservative. But I respect him even more than some "liberals", etc. because he articulates his position and reasoning well. Very well. And I believe he does not dismiss the uniqueness of our situation. Out all people here, I look for him and you to check my own views with. I think that's what this forum is for and the thing I appreciate about it the most.

It's really pretty funny with you (MBM) wondering if you're (relatively) conservative. On Faheem's blog some not-so-stealth Black conservative tried to assert that WEB DuBois was THE Original Black Conservative. As in that's how he is remembered. Well, MBM, if you can be that type of Black Conservative and leave us with that type of legacy then I'm all for your type of conservativism. music

Though I may always find points on which I may disagree, again, the most important thing is embodied in your first paragraph.

PEACE!
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:

Then, I thought about it, and I realized that a lot of views I have are quite similar to this. I'm very big on law and order, capitalism, and school vouchers. My support for affirmative action is not absolute. I still don't favor the idea of slave reparations, or same-sex marriage.


Vox,

I'm not sure that you can be a true social conservative without supporting same sex marriage.

More than one comentator has observed that gays who are struggling for the right to settle down, get married, and raise their families, are essentially coming from a socially conservative orientation.

In fact, what the same sex marriage debate has shown, more than anything else, is just how socially conservative many folks in the gay community really are. Of course, this really comes as no surprise to anybody who has been involved to any degree with gays and gay rights over the years, but the essential socially conservativism of the same sex marriage movement does provide quite a contrast with media stereotypes of gays in the mainstream media.

Just think of how conservative the images coming out of San Francisco appeared, with couples and their children standing out in the rain for days, just for the chance to get married. You just can't get much more socially conservative than that.

Nope...You don't get to call yourself a true conservative until you support same sex marriage.

Razz
Well Ric, I don't really have any burning desire to be called a conservative. We're exploring the boundaries of the terminology in this thread, but if my position is "liberal," I'm cool with that. As long as you understand what my specific opinions and beliefs ARE, and how they differ from other positions, what political label people give it isn't something I care about. But I also don't agree with your characterization of same-sex marriage as a "socially conservative" issue. There's nothing wrong with the term "liberal," so I don't see why you bother struggling to label s.s.m. a "conservative" issue. If I favored s.s.m., I would proudly acknowledge the social liberality of it and not try to label it something that it really isn't.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:

But I also don't agree with your characterization of same-sex marriage as a "socially conservative" issue.


You don't agree that conservatives have tried to hijack marriage and 'family values' as hallmarks of their platform?


For some reason, when I noticed this thread listed under the "Melange" forum today, I thought it said "May 22," so I clicked on it... may as well comment.

quote:
You don't agree that conservatives have tried to hijack marriage and 'family values' as hallmarks of their platform?


Yeah, but I was commenting on Ricardomath's tongue-in-cheek comment that it was "conservative" to support same sex marriage.
I think that labels/categories etc. are problematic because humans are fluid and not static. I think you have given a perfect example of how static titles both help us to identify each other quickly and limit our ability to overlap i.e. break boundaries in order to embrace ideas not confined to our particular labeling/category. Sometimes people restrict their beliefs only to make it easier on others who seek to label them. I don't think this is necessary and it is okay to have ideas that don't fit neatly into a certain category of political views.
quote:
we pretty much dismiss the current black neo-cons as really not having any interest in our community at all.


I am still attempting to understand why this force called the "Black Conservative" who cant' get elected in the Black community, who is few in number, who is boo'ed off of the stage at Black gatherings pose such a problem to you Black Liberals.

Please consider that the Black Liberal Progressive Fundementalist hold total sway over the Black community.

Yet after 40 years of pumping a Great Society agenda we find many areas within the Black community RETROGRESSING rather than PROGRESSING.

Let us be honest. When was the last time you saw Ward Connerly on television? What about Arstrong Williams - he has been banished from Black outlets - ex: America's Black Forum.

Now let us consider Jesse, Al, Shelia, Maxine, Louis. If there a week out of the year in which one of these individuals are not in the news some where?

I have to wonder if there is some cognative dissonace invovled here where you are reaching out to some scape goat to attach your frustrations to?
quote:
Now let us consider Jesse, Al, Shelia, Maxine, Louis. If there a week out of the year in which one of these individuals are not in the news some where?
You are such a DUMBASS!!

By that very standard (i.e. the news; aka the media), you give "LIBERALS" (please use something other than WHITE SPEAK!) every reason to be concerned with Black CONservatives who are grossly overrepresented in the [White] Media.

quote:
Please consider that the Black Liberal Progressive Fundementalist hold total sway over the Black community.
DUMBASS!!
You DEBUNK your own theory. If BLPF hold *TOTAL* sway over the Black Community then your Capitalist Co-Conspirators Theory is inherently flawed and problematic by this notion of BLPF having TOTAL "sway".

DUMBASS... The prefix "CO" means WITH, as in, IN CONJUNCTION WITH. Meaning there is more than ONE who is responsible. So, in that very equation, even if we grant you your DEFEATED argument, BOTH the Capitalist and the CO-Conspirators are "responsible". Yet, even from your own flawed theory, you don't hold the Capitalist responsible or accountable for jack. Hmmm.....

Speaking and Acting IN DEFERENCE can do nothing but make you pose ideas that come back to bite you. Where is your critique of Capitalism and Capitalist since you have this grand Co-Conspirators THEORY you love to cart out so much? Clearly, if you don't think there's anything wrong with Capitalist then their Co-Conspirators really can't be an issue for you.

Cynical comments are no replacement for real, substantive analysis. But you do love this absurd Right vs. Leftism... Proof that you are a stooge!

quote:
I am holding those who have the strongest voices, those who... shout down alternate plans in the light of the current plans for the Black community not working and those who have lead us the wrong way ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHERE WE STILL REMAIN AND THE DECLINE YET AHEAD.
CONSTRUCTO... (emphasis on the CON...) You've had your opportunity. You have NOT presented an ALTERNATIVE Plan. Not such Alternative AGENDA has been listed by you.

For all the problems with Black "Leadership"... you and Black CONservatives like you are nothing but Player Haters. You don't have a fuckin' concept and really wouldn't change anything but places with the BLPF.

As far as Where We Are, Where We Remain and Where We're Going and how that amounts to your indictment against the existing Black "Leadership" structure (Hmmm...), beyond you NOT presenting an alternative Model for a more effective Leadership Structure (one that would be more responsive, accountable, focused, etc.), you obviously have some unrealistic expectations. Expectations, ideas that are divorced from REALITY especially with respect to Power Dynamics and what Black Leadership, as currently constructed and constituted (under White Supremacy), can deliver.

I know that is way over your head or rather doesn't fit so neatly into your simplistic little ideological tripe.

You know, while taking issue with Black "Leadership" and wanting to change it and it's focus... why not speak more analytically into changing the whole dynamics that have, at least, played a role in so-called Black "Leadership" being what it is? I mean, seriously, if you're really trying to take Black Leadership to task and you really want to ensure that Black Leadership addresses and/or solves problems/issues in the Black Community, then you must at least have some concern for whether the very structure of Black Leadership in America is conducive/productive towards those end. That is, you must make sure Black Leadership actually can solve Black people's problems even if a conservative tact is taken and that the problem of Black Leadership isn't one that's fundamentally or structurally flawed or counterproductive.

Hmmmm.... From a guy like you with the views you have about Socialism/Communism (I believe) as ideas that are inherently flawed, problematic you should be able to understand this. You know, an ugly woman, cleaned up and dressed in the best make-up and finest clothes is still an ugly woman.

Have you ever consider that Black Leadership under the current social structure is that type of ugly woman? How can we tell whether your conservativism, if adopted, won't be anything more than trying to dress up an ugly woman?

You know, after a while, with shallow as ideas like yours... even if Black people adopt your ideas today... there will come a time when "With The Judgement You Judge Ye Shall Be Judged." I.E. Because of the lack of depth of your thoughts, the generation that comes after your shallow ideas are adopted will be talking about how much of an utter FAILURE your bullshit was because all you could ever conceive of doing was dressing that same old ugly woman up.

You know, like someone thinking, speaking and acting COMPLETELY IN DEFERENCE... you only want superficial changes at best (with your barbershop BS as abundant proof)... and can't conceive of anything going beyond the surface level.

It's that Surface Level, Symptomatic thinking that has you trying to single out and blame Black Leadership as if it exist in a vaccuum.
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:

I am still attempting to understand why this force called the "Black Conservative" who cant' get elected in the Black community, who is few in number, who is boo'ed off of the stage at Black gatherings pose such a problem to you Black Liberals.

Please consider that the Black Liberal Progressive Fundementalist hold total sway over the Black community.

Yet after 40 years of pumping a Great Society agenda we find many areas within the Black community RETROGRESSING rather than PROGRESSING.


Very good point.
I wouldn't consider myself a conservative or a liberal but reading various posts on this site I would agree that my political opinions lean much further to the right than just about anyone I've seen post on this site. I don't think the idea of a black conservative or a conservative who is black should be unusal because we (like any other race) do not all think alike. We are as different in our opinions beliefs and ideas as any other race. I will admit the majority of us do seem to lean left politically and "the powers that be" in the Black community mostly seem to sit on the left, but the idea of a black person having conservative values and conservative ideas I believe is more common than many would think

Kevin

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