THE CONCEPT OF MALE PRIVILEGE

quote:

Originally posted by nayo:
..."I'm reading a lot of complaining about who does the serving at dinner time. But, is that all there is to do in life? Is there no purpose that men serve in your lives? I get the impression that the perception here is that men do nothing except sit around, grow fat, and demand to be waited on hand and foot. If that's the case, why have them around at all?

Is there no privilege women have that men do not? Truthfully, are there no advantages or privileges you see in being a woman?...."
---------------------------------------------


To reduce this discussion to 'washing dishes and serving a plate of food',is disengenuous(sp). The intent of my point in this discussion was not that that men, black men in this case, sit about like 'arab princes's' waiting for women to service them, [unless you visit church functions, with church patriarchy waited on hand and foot], But,that because of the changing needs of requiring two incomes, that women are still perceived as 'secondary' in terms of cognitive abilities, both in the work place and home, and still perceived as 'grown children'. For myself, the 'housework' expectation is, more or less, symbolic of the 'role' that women are relegated to; of course men take care of the 'dirty work', but so do women; I appreciate that men 'like' doing dirty work, but when times are rough, women havd had to roll up their sleeves and get with it.

When growing up, as the eldest, I took out the garbage, cut the grass, and when the plumbing failed, 'assisted' my dad, in fixing the pipes. My brothers, know cars, most teenage boys do. My sisters and I, took our cars to the mechanic, or boyfriends/uncles worked on them. I think the point of this discussion is being disparaged; my point is that the perception of male 'superiority', is presented as 'truth', [and superiority in all things to do with leadership skills, management etc] reality if you will, and that to reduce this to house-keeping, steers the focus away from what is, in my view important, that the construct of male privilege/dominance, does exist. How one conducts their intimate and interpersonal relationships, is one's personal business; but how the world is structured, as regards white male dominance, and male dominance, should not be casually dismissed as the rant of an 'oprahesque' mentality.

hmmm... if this is an issue of institutional structure.. then I would have to say I disagree that there is any one way that women are expected to act... there are trail ends of a cohesive mainly homogenous culture that those of our generation were bequeathed to experience.... it was in THIS culture that female roles were assigned

however, as I watch younger girls, today's society is very much individualistic... especially with the women's movement a few decades ago and its lingering effects as well as its transformations, many girls are simply flying solo as what to expect of themselves as it relates to men...

boys no longer take girls out on dates... when they do, they expect to go half and half....

or they group date... and increasingly group sex (but that's another thread).....

no... when I spoke of my example I made a point to express that this was MY preference and that any gender role assigned or not assigned in a relationship will not work unless there is mutual consensus..


Peace.....

Khalliqa

quote:

Originally posted by Black Viking:

Maybe it's just me, but in many of these examples you ladies seem to be picking.

Yes, women are far more likely to be harrassed by men on the street than men are to be harrassed by women. However, men are far more likely to be harrassed by police officers on the street than women are.

Yes, men have the capacity for greater physical strength than women. However, that's only a capacity... not an inevitability. I've known women who could bench press my entire weight and then some.

I'm reading a lot of complaining about who does the serving at dinner time. But, is that all there is to do in life? Is there no purpose that men serve in your lives? I get the impression that the perception here is that men do nothing except sit around, grow fat, and demand to be waited on hand and foot. If that's the case, why have them around at all?

Is there no privilege women have that men do not? Truthfully, are there no advantages or privileges you see in being a woman?

That post was in response to HB's question as to whether the serving is a male expectation or female tradition.

If you'd read my posts, you'd see that I haven't reduced male privilege to just the dinner table.

I haven't noticed the other women do that, either.

Actually, the only skirting and minimizing that I have noticed is from men, who have the privilege to do so.

What I've noticed from the men is that a couple of you are stuck in an Oppression Olympics mindset.

Not wanting to acknowledge any privileges men have, but can't wait to list the privileges women.

I suppose many men have been so comfortable with the community focusing on men's problems all of the time that you are too scurred to listen to women's problems.

BTW, my brother had his ID stolen by a couple of criminals. Although it's semi-cleared up, he is still at risk of being picked up by police who are trying to catch those guys. In addition, my brother is a big baggy pants loving mean-mugging guy. He's a great target for the po-po. Yet even he doesn't attempt to devalue the affects of street harassment women.

And, yeah. Some women are stronger than some men. Point? Do most men not have a physical strength advantage over most women?

And, no, Oppression Olympics lovers, I never said that there are no privileges that come with being a woman.

Read the title of the thread and perhaps you'll understand why we are discussing male privilege.

Ya'll sound so much like Whites who refuse to acknowledge their racial privileges.

THE CONCEPT OF WHITE PRIVILEGE:

But, but, but. . .I don't get AA. *Me, me, me.*

But, but, but. . .You can be racist, too. *Me, me, me.*

But, but, but. . .I worry about being the victim of Hate Crimes. By the way, why is there Hate Crimes legislation? *Me, me, me.*

But, but, but. . .Stop playing the race card. Remember MLK Jr. Can't we all just get along? *Me, me, me.*

But, but, but. . .I'm colorblind, negro. *Me, me, me.*

But, but, but. . .I don't ever get any privileges. *hails cab*

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.
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I expected better from ya'll.

quote:

Originally posted by ma'am:

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.
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I expected better from ya'll.

I'm trying .... ...

quote:

Originally posted by ma'am:
If you'd read my posts, you'd see that I haven't reduced male privilege to just the dinner table.

I'm aware of that. I was speaking to that example and others that are similar.

quote:

Not wanting to acknowledge any privileges men have, but can't wait to list the privileges women.

I didn't do that. I asked a question...

"Are there advantages and privileges that are inherent to being a woman?"

quote:

I suppose many men have been so comfortable with the community focusing on men's problems all of the time that you are too scurred to listen to women's problems.

Chronic Projection much?

quote:

And, yeah. Some women are stronger than some men. Point? Do most men not have a physical strength advantage over most women?

Granted. Now, do women have any advantages over men?

quote:

And, no, Oppression Olympics lovers, I never said that there are no privileges that come with being a woman.

I didn't say that you said that. I asked what those privileges were. If you acknowledge that women have privileges that men don't have, then what's the problem? Are you suggesting that women should have all available privileges, and that men should have none?

To be clear, I'm not talking about institutional or legal sexism. I'm talking about silly examples like "physical strength advantage". The reason it's silly, is because women have natural physical advantages over men as well. For example, women are naturally more flexible than men. But, you won't see me chalking that up to female privilege. Understanding how my advantages differ from yours is not sexism. It's applicable knowledge.

quote:

Ya'll sound so much like Whites who refuse to acknowledge their racial privileges.

THE CONCEPT OF WHITE PRIVILEGE:

But, but, but. . .I don't get AA. *Me, me, me.*

But, but, but. . .You can be racist, too. *Me, me, me.*

But, but, but. . .I worry about being the victim of Hate Crimes. By the way, why is there Hate Crimes legislation? *Me, me, me.*

But, but, but. . .Stop playing the race card. Remember MLK Jr. Can't we all just get along? *Me, me, me.*

But, but, but. . .I'm colorblind, negro. *Me, me, me.*

But, but, but. . .I don't ever get any privileges. *hails cab*

That was dirty, but I'll let that go... this time.

quote:

I expected better from ya'll.

It appears that what you really expected was meek acquiescence. Sorry, got none for ya...

quote:

expected better from ya'll.

more like the expection of being validated, heard, listened to, appreciated and what not.

I've already said that there is male privilege - but I don't know what it looks like for Black men.

Back to the beginning... retrace my steps.

quote:

I'm not quite sure how to broach this topic without some negative vibe.

Ya think?

quote:

I am interested in sistas' and brothas' feelings about the concept of male privilege.

Okay... looks good so far - could be better.

Male Privilege is NOT defined.

Maybe we could come to an agreement of what it is.

quote:

In church, and community organizations there are some roles which seem automatically expected of sistas.

If "sistas" in this case means "Black women" - then how can Black men be expected to discuss this point without making our culture or race part of the issue?

What institutions do Black men "control" and where in this society do they have the power to oppress women regardless of race?

Moreover, like HB has pointed out, if you are not part of an organization or institution where women are marginalized or oppressed, then how are you expected to admit to "male privilege?"

quote:

Is it spiritually, naturally, socially right to assert that a man should make decisions, lead the unit, have his voice heard, or be served simply because he is a man?

NO!

quote:

Is this the natural order of things?

There is no evidence showing this to be true... so the answer again is NO!

quote:

How does this affect sistas?

If a sista is exposed to oppressive male behavior, it would have an adverse affect on her self-esteem, emotional well being, sensibilities... just to name a few.

quote:

Does male privilege seep into work? relationships? spiritual? family? Is it a useful concept? Your thoughts?

For certain men in the workplace... none that looked like me.

And I have never seen male privilege in my home or in my relationships.

No. Male privilege is NOT a behavior I would consider useful.

quote:

I think both males and females are afforded privilege...

in most cases trying to assign value (as in your privilege is less or greater than mine) is non productive...

there are benefits to being female that men don't have and vice versa.... it doesn't always have to be a negative double standard.... sometimes I wish we could learn to appreciate our differences and look at them complimentary instead of combatively... or competitively....


in cases of abuse.... there clearly are no benefits on either side...

Outstanding.

I missed this post.

To me, this deads the issue.

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:
this post reeks of judgement. You have no clue what kind of "values" women who want to be treated well by men have other than the ones they express.

Huh? I don't understand what you've written here. And it reads as if you may have misinterpreted what I've said. Here's a suggestion. Why not address those parts of my statment with which you disagree?

quote:

Originally posted by virtue/Khalliqa:
I like serving... so, I don't see what other women see.... when I walk into a room with my man, I just wanna serve something

Allow me to share with you, exactly, what other women see. Many of today's women have very demanding careers that involve running companies, meeting deadlines, filling last-minute orders, and upholding tremendous responsibilities with far too little time to do it all. And when they finally get a chance to call it quits and go home, rather than relaxing and enjoying a moment to themselves, they are confronted with an entire different set of demanding responsibilities, which include but is certainly not limited to being a mother, maid, cook, and wife. In fact, it seems the more "advanced" women become, the more responsibilities that they incur.

Unfortunately, however, when a woman becomes too overwhelmed, she begins to feel underappreciated. And when a woman feels underappreciated, everyone around her will know it.

This is why women must not give more than they what they receive. When a woman does not want to do something, she should practice the art of saying "NO" without feeling guilty. Far too often, women go over and beyond the call of duty to please people, particularly men, even when they shouldn't. They will do things they don't want to do because they feel obligated. Then when men do not reciprocate their efforts and give them what they feel they deserve, they become resentful and hurt, not realizing the role they played in creating their own disappointment.

To avoid this problem, rather than doing ALL of the serving and pleasing, women must make sure they too are getting their needs met in their relationships. If a woman wants a marriage, for example, she should not sleep with a man, cook for him, clean up after him, and play "wife" to him in order to satisfy all of his needs until she has gotten her needs met as well. This is how women and men are to build lasting relationships that are based upon honesty and a fair and balanced committment.

Women who say they are satisfied with just "pleasing their man," and this is enough for them, are not being completely honest with themselves or their partners.

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:

quote:

Originally posted by virtue/Khalliqa:
I like serving... so, I don't see what other women see.... when I walk into a room with my man, I just wanna serve something

Allow me to share with you, exactly, what other women see. Many of today's women have very demanding jobs. And on their jobs, they have companies to run, deadlines to make, last-minute orders to fill, tremendous responsibilities to uphold, and far too little time to do it all. And when they finally get a chance to call it quits and go home, rather than relaxing and enjoying a moment to themselves, they are confronted with an entire different set of demanding responsibilities, which include but is certainly not limited to being a mother, maid, cook, and wife. In fact, it seems the more "advanced" women become, the more responsibilities that they incur.

Unfortunately, however, when a woman becomes too overwhelmed, she begins to feel underappreciated. And when a woman feels underappreciated, everyone around her will know it.

This is why women must not give more than they what they receive. When a woman does not want to do something, she should practice the art of saying "NO" without feeling guilty. Far too often, women go over and beyond the call of duty to please people, particularly men, even when they shouldn't. They will do things they don't want to do because they feel obligated. Then when men do not reciprocate their efforts and give them what they feel they deserve, they become resentful and hurt, not realizing the role they played in creating their own disappointment.

To avoid this problem, rather than doing ALL of the serving and pleasing, women must make sure they too are getting their needs met in their relationships. If you want a marriage, for example, don't sleep with a man, cook for him, clean up after him, and play "wifey" to him in order to satisfy all of his needs until you have gotten your needs met as well. This is how we are to build lasting relationships based on honesty and a fair and balanced committment.

Women who say that they are satisfied with just pleasing their man and that is enough for them are not being honest with themselves or their partners.

I agree, but also agree with what'Virtue/Khaliqua', says is necessary

mutual consensus.

quote:

Originally posted by nayo:
I agree, but also agree with what'Virtue/Khaliqua', says is necessary

mutual consensus.

Thanks for reading, and I don't want readers to misinterpret my statments and mistakenly reach the conclusion that I'm opposed to women pleasing their loved ones. Of course, in a relationship that is based upon genuine care and love, pleasing your mate is necessary, and it feels good to make your spouse happy. However, women should not feel that they are the only ones who should do all of the pleasing. Women too deserve to have their needs met. Women too must begin to feel comfortable relaxing, receiving help from others, and ASKING for what they want. It's OK to say, "No, I can't do that for you at this particular time, but can you help me..."

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Have any of you ever had an unpleasant experience with a black male for failing to fulfill the traditional gender role? This might help to enlighten us men a little more.

Again, I don't see why this discussion has to be limited to womens' experiences relating to the "Black male." I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm more interested in discussing relationships between women and men in general. And there is one very simple thing that a woman can do to avoid feeling used, ASK FOR WHAT YOU WANT, and don't allow feelings of guilt or nagging obligation to get in the way!

Women have a tendency to unnecessarily go out of their way to please men, sometimes much too early in a relationship, then later on complain about feeling used and taken advantage of. I have learned that the more a woman pursues a man, and goes out of her way to please him, failing to acknolwedge and respect her own needs, the less interested he becomes.

Men respect women who respect themselves. They respect a woman who has boundaries and standards, and who makes certain that she will not be taken advantage of.

BV,

It wasn't dirty.

It was the truth and you still haven't gotten the point. You're still looking to skirt male privilege and discuss female privilege in a THE CONCEPT OF MALE PRIVILEGE thread, and yet you have the nerve to ask what's the problem.

If anything, your response just reaffirms that I'm on point with my racial comparison.

Physical strength was my bro's point, but I do find it valid. When walking through a park, into an apartment building, or down the street late at night, would you rather have average male strength or average female? Because of his strength, he doesn't have his girlfriend escort him home. Because she is smaller, she doesn't have the privilege of feeling as safe. Is it difficult to see how greater strength can be advantageous? And how that advantage could lead to a privilege?

Acquiescence isn't quite what I looked for.

All the women aren't agreeing with each other, but we are staying on topic.

I have to admit that I assumed that more men would be aware of the privileges men have and be able to discuss them. And if not, at least be mature enough to listen to the POVs of people who have noticed male privileges without calling them a stretch of the imagination or salivating to turn the topic to female privilege before having a decent discussion on the topic of the thread.

Fine if you don't know about women being assaulting walking down the street, but don't say it's all in a woman's head until you've had enough experience as a woman.

Fine if you got your arse whooped more than your sister, but take that to a thread about FEMALE privilege.

Don't do a list of female privileges in a thread examining male privilege, especially if you can't hardly come up with a list of male privileges. If you can't think of any you have, perhaps it's best not to talk too much, but rather note examples posted by those who can.

Don't take examples male privileges and try to go Olympian on them and find some female privilege to trump male privilege. This isn't a game of who has it worse, but a discussion on a topic that is often dismissed in our community. Don't ruin it.

In other words, if you really don't know of any examples of male privilege to talk about, observe. What Ricardo said is correct, in that privileges are largely invisible to those who have them. Perhaps if you watch a while, you'll see.

And if you do know of examples, contribute productively to the topic at hand. MALE PRIVILEGE.

Privileges in the home, on the street, in the car dealership, in the workplace, at school, within religious organizations--There are many. It'd be interesting to see more men discuss various areas, rather than just focusing on the home or places where they personally aren't included.

But that's just my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:

quote:

Originally posted by virtue/Khalliqa:
I like serving... so, I don't see what other women see.... when I walk into a room with my man, I just wanna serve something

Allow me to share with you, exactly, what other women see. Many of today's women have very demanding careers that involve running companies, meeting deadlines, filling last-minute orders, and upholding tremendous responsibilities with far too little time to do it all. And when they finally get a chance to call it quits and go home, rather than relaxing and enjoying a moment to themselves, they are confronted with an entire different set of demanding responsibilities, which include but is certainly not limited to being a mother, maid, cook, and wife. In fact, it seems the more "advanced" women become, the more responsibilities that they incur.

Unfortunately, however, when a woman becomes too overwhelmed, she begins to feel underappreciated. And when a woman feels underappreciated, everyone around her will know it.

This is why women must not give more than they what they receive. When a woman does not want to do something, she should practice the art of saying "NO" without feeling guilty. Far too often, women go over and beyond the call of duty to please people, particularly men, even when they shouldn't.

You are correct about this. I wonder how many of us know a black woman who has so many demands that it seems like chaos follows her around. And is stressed to the breaking point.

My own mother is like this. She takes on too many responsibilities (which should not be hers alone). Cooking, cleaning, babysitting grandkids, babysitting the babies of friends of her children. Apparently she can't say no. It's gotten to the point where I say no for her.

I get stressed out just being near her stress. That's how stressful we're talking about. It is aging her and I do worry.

And the truth is you don't ever see men living like this or expected to live like this.

quote:

Originally posted by Shango67:

quote:

I think both males and females are afforded privilege...

in most cases trying to assign value (as in your privilege is less or greater than mine) is non productive...

there are benefits to being female that men don't have and vice versa.... it doesn't always have to be a negative double standard.... sometimes I wish we could learn to appreciate our differences and look at them complimentary instead of combatively... or competitively....


in cases of abuse.... there clearly are no benefits on either side...

Outstanding.

I missed this post.

To me, this deads the issue.

Thank you... I should have left this thread after stating this....

let my emotions get wrapped up in all of the side issues..

but I stand by my initial position...

I think that was sufficient and will leave this thread ....


Peace....

quote:

Originally posted by Shango67:

quote:

There are benefits that black men reap over Black women....

WHAT DO THEY LOOK LIKE?

Getting an extra piece of fried chicken after Sunday Service at the church...

A special bean pie made by sister so-and-so at mosque number 7...

WHAT are the BENEFITS??????

Turn to BET for 2 minutes and then you will see what it looks like.

I can definately tell you what it feels like, and she who feels it knws it.

Shango,

What do you think about this statement...

The Black women is the slave of the slave" -Kwame Nkrumah.

Are our most highly developed African male minds all wrong too or is it just us White femanist brainwashed sisters? Kwame Ture(Stokely Carmicheal) spoke about sexism messing up the Black power movement in his autobiography... and as a female member of the Pan Africanist and Black power movements today, I can definately attest to MAJOR sexist oppression by the majority of the brothers. Let me appeal to your self interest, by pointing out that it is thwarting our collective effort towards liberation. It's hard for me to keep sistes around because of the sexism in the movement. I'm a stubborn one, so I won't budge because of chauvanism...but other sisters can't take it. The lack of female membership hurts us all. Or, is the fact that sexism is thwarting our progress as a group a non issue because it doesn't give you a benefit in the White male run society?

Sexism destroying the equal participation of Black women in the liberation struggle should be of MAJOR CONCERN.

I can't tell you how many times what I say is skipped over but if somewhone with a penis says the same thing it is listened to, by the men AND the women. I can't tell you how many times I have heard comments from brothers like, "You know so much about Africa, you must have an African boyfriend", or, "Oh, you went to Africa? Who did you go with, your husband/boyfriend?"

Or how many brothers are intimidated because they want to 'teach' their women about African culture/politics so they don't necessarily befriend me.(this has been openly admitted to me several times)

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:
You are correct about this. I wonder how many of us know a black woman who has so many demands that it seems like chaos follows her around. And is stressed to the breaking point.

My own mother is like this. She takes on too many responsibilities (which should not be hers alone). Cooking, cleaning, babysitting grandkids, babysitting the babies of friends of her children. Apparently she can't say no. It's gotten to the point where I say no for her.

I get stressed out just being near her stress. That's how stressful we're talking about. It is aging her and I do worry.

Don't worry, I was once a people-pleaser too. Like most women, I thought that if I gave people, men specifically, more of what they wanted, then they would naturally reciprocate my affections by giving me more of what I wanted. I have since learned that men think and behave in ways that are a lot different from women. According to John Gray, author of Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus (1993), on Venus, women are quite skilled at intuitively knowing what the other needs. Moreover, on Venus, a VERY important social custom is that if someone does something nice for you, then you should gratuitously return the favor.

On Mars, however, things are done differently. On Mars, when a man wants something done, he either does it himself or he asks for what he wants. He doesn't expect other men to read his mind or to instinctively know what the other needs. CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT??? That's a very important diffference. On Venus, there are a lot of "silent" expectations to meet, and when they are not met, you are immediately thought of as "inconsiderate," "uncaring," and "selfish." (Venusians can be very unforgiving).

Another salient difference between Marsians and Venusians is that rather than allowing frustration and tension to pile up over what's not being done for them, Marsians will actually address an issue, right away. What's even more shocking is that when a Marsian doesn't want to do something (or accept something) from another Marsian, he simply says in an assertive tone, "No thanks" or "This is not the right time, check back with me later." And that's it! No hurt feelings, no feelings of guilt.

This is incredible news. You can imagine how difficult it might be for a Venusian to live on Mars. And just think, all of this time I have been relating to Marsians in ways that I relate to my fellow Venusians. Essentially, I've expected for men to behave and think exactly like women. But now that I've learned about how much different Marsians are from Venusians, I've become a lot less frustrated with Marsian behavior and customs, and a lot more understanding of our unique gender differences.

Marsvenus.com

quote:

Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
I can't tell you how many times what I say is skipped over but if somewhone with a penis says the same thing it is listened to, by the men AND the women.

Thank you Sister Oshun for joining the discussion. I've always appreciated your insight.

For Rowe...

I am sorry, I must have misinterpreted your post. Please forgive me?

Shango...

If you can accept that white male privilege exists and is damaging to all others....how come this is such a stretch?

BTW, to choose a subservient or secondary role, not one of equality, represents a different sort of dynamic to me

than

having others assume you will be secondary because you are female.

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:
For Rowe...

I am sorry, I must have misinterpreted your post. Please forgive me?

Yes. It's ok.

quote:

Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

quote:

Originally posted by Shango67:

quote:

There are benefits that black men reap over Black women....

WHAT DO THEY LOOK LIKE?

Getting an extra piece of fried chicken after Sunday Service at the church...

A special bean pie made by sister so-and-so at mosque number 7...

WHAT are the BENEFITS??????

Turn to BET for 2 minutes and then you will see what it looks like.

I can definately tell you what it feels like, and she who feels it knws it.

Shango,

What do you think about this statement...

The Black women is the slave of the slave" -Kwame Nkrumah.

Are our most highly developed African male minds all wrong too or is it just us White femanist brainwashed sisters? Kwame Ture(Stokely Carmicheal) spoke about sexism messing up the Black power movement in his autobiography... and as a female member of the Pan Africanist and Black power movements today, I can definately attest to MAJOR sexist oppression by the majority of the brothers. Let me appeal to your self interest, by pointing out that it is thwarting our collective effort towards liberation. It's hard for me to keep sistes around because of the sexism in the movement. I'm a stubborn one, so I won't budge because of chauvanism...but other sisters can't take it. The lack of female membership hurts us all. Or, is the fact that sexism is thwarting our progress as a group a non issue because it doesn't give you a benefit in the White male run society?

Sexism destroying the equal participation of Black women in the liberation struggle should be of MAJOR CONCERN.

I can't tell you how many times what I say is skipped over but if somewhone with a penis says the same thing it is listened to, by the men AND the women. I can't tell you how many times I have heard comments from brothers like, "You know so much about Africa, you must have an African boyfriend", or, "Oh, you went to Africa? Who did you go with, your husband/boyfriend?"

Or how many brothers are intimidated because they want to 'teach' their women about African culture/politics so they don't necessarily befriend me.(this has been openly admitted to me several times)

But, was'nt it 'Carmichael/Tourre'. who made the following comment:

Stokeley Carmichael, was responsible for the infamous remark at the 1964 SNCC conference: "The only position for women in SNCC is prone."

-Black women are still called sell-outs for reporting sexual harassment.

-Too many men, with their male privilege, try to tell us what our problems are and what our problems aren't, but don't really listen to what we say.

-Disenfranchisement from Black discussions.

-Disenfranchisement from women's discussions.

"The problem is not Black women's silences but the nation's and the Black community's unwillingness to listen."

Acting as "the master of the castle", insisting on being the one to make the Major Decisions because you are male, ordering and demanding others...

more examples of male privilege

Makani Themba wrote a piece with some very good points.

quote:

When someone asks me to name the dominant influence on African-American nationalism today, my answer is quick and easy: Leave It to Beaver. Yes, Ward, June and the Beav are shaping Black discourse more than DuBois, Cabral or Fanon. Think for a moment of the images evoked from nationalist rhetoric"”"a woman's rightful place," "restoring Black manhood," "the Black man will take his rightful place as leader." The healing of the Black family has become synonymous with reshaping our families to look like the White nuclear family of 50s television. In fact, so popular has this rhetoric become that it drew over one million men to Washington, D.C. (supported in large part by organizing efforts and donations by and from women).

First, I should confess that I went to the Million Man March. Sure, I had other business while in Washington, D.C. but I went to see the march"”and the standing room only rally the night before"”in order to gauge the event and its meaning for myself. After all, I had watched good friends mobilize local organizing committees for the effort. They had fried fish, sold t-shirts, collected donations and hustled buses all across the country. And yes, they were mostly women working to make sure their Black men would march triumphantly on Washington.

The march certainly confirmed that there is widespread belief in our community that African-American women's issues are not African-American issues. In fact, discourse on gender politics at any level is usually greeted like pork at the mosque. After all, we are told, feminism is a White thing and there's no need to understand.

However, the roots and implications of anti-feminism are deeper than the character of mass events or our spokespeople. African-American feminists and their words are ruthlessly censored and ridiculed in Black public discourse. African-American women who raised criticism of the Million Man March for its treatment of gender issues were lumped along with White supremacists as "tools of the White man." The march, of course, is not the only example of such censorship and exile. The debate around the Clarence Thomas- Anita Hill affair and the O.J. Simpson trial are both examples of how African-American discourse on the gender politics so basic to understanding these events was stifled.

There is an unspoken credo among the anti-feminists that liberation comes from waiting in line: men first then women, just like the White folk. To the extent that we can recreate their businesses, their families and their wealth as we imagine them to be; if we can organize ourselves in line just right, we will develop the moral fortitude to be free. Further, to talk to African-American men, given all they are already going through, about ways in which they, too, can be oppressors not only messes up the line, it adds strength and power to the opposition. Therefore, issues of gender oppression must wait.

And wait we have. Virtually no African-American women's organizations work on gender issues. Most focus on a broader social service or economic agenda that does not confront men on male privilege or even oppression of women. Even C. Delores Tucker's controversial efforts through the National Black Women's Political Caucus to regulate rap music focuses mostly on violence, not oppressive portrayals of women which is often worse in contemporary ballads than in rap. African-American women "leaders" have gladly abdicated leadership on gender issues for fear of reprisal from their male counterparts. Perhaps its most devastating result is that African-American women are denied a cosmology or public conversation in which we can contextualize our lives as women"”the way we can as African Americans. Without this larger context, we internalize the oppression and blame ourselves.

It's time for a new covenant between Black men and women. One that allows our mutual oppression to nurture empathy and encouragement and enables us to dialogue honestly and critically on our oppression. Current rhetoric that encourages us to build Black community by buying Black and "going back" to the fanciful days of Donna Reed will certainly lead us astray. If we endeavor to learn from models, let us look to countries like Cuba, Haiti and South Africa where men and women are working"”and struggling"”with one another to build nations virtually from scratch. It is an imperfect process but there are clear lessons so far. There will be no redemption by consumption. There will be no liberation without a culture of constructive criticism and mutual solidarity. There will be no freedom if we do not fight for it, forge it and defend it. And until feminism becomes a Black thing, we will never understand.

quote:

Originally posted by nayo:

quote:

Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

quote:

Originally posted by Shango67:

quote:

There are benefits that black men reap over Black women....

WHAT DO THEY LOOK LIKE?

Getting an extra piece of fried chicken after Sunday Service at the church...

A special bean pie made by sister so-and-so at mosque number 7...

WHAT are the BENEFITS??????

Turn to BET for 2 minutes and then you will see what it looks like.

I can definately tell you what it feels like, and she who feels it knws it.

Shango,

What do you think about this statement...

The Black women is the slave of the slave" -Kwame Nkrumah.

Are our most highly developed African male minds all wrong too or is it just us White femanist brainwashed sisters? Kwame Ture(Stokely Carmicheal) spoke about sexism messing up the Black power movement in his autobiography... and as a female member of the Pan Africanist and Black power movements today, I can definately attest to MAJOR sexist oppression by the majority of the brothers. Let me appeal to your self interest, by pointing out that it is thwarting our collective effort towards liberation. It's hard for me to keep sistes around because of the sexism in the movement. I'm a stubborn one, so I won't budge because of chauvanism...but other sisters can't take it. The lack of female membership hurts us all. Or, is the fact that sexism is thwarting our progress as a group a non issue because it doesn't give you a benefit in the White male run society?

Sexism destroying the equal participation of Black women in the liberation struggle should be of MAJOR CONCERN.

I can't tell you how many times what I say is skipped over but if somewhone with a penis says the same thing it is listened to, by the men AND the women. I can't tell you how many times I have heard comments from brothers like, "You know so much about Africa, you must have an African boyfriend", or, "Oh, you went to Africa? Who did you go with, your husband/boyfriend?"

Or how many brothers are intimidated because they want to 'teach' their women about African culture/politics so they don't necessarily befriend me.(this has been openly admitted to me several times)

But, was'nt it 'Carmichael/Tourre'. who made the following comment:

Stokeley Carmichael, was responsible for the infamous remark at the 1964 SNCC conference: "The only position for women in SNCC is prone."

Yah, in 1964 before he joined the Black Panthers and before he became a Pan Africanist and adopted Nkrumah's ideology, hence his 'new' name.

This argument is similar to quoteing W.E.B. DuBois during his NAACP days and not realizing he developed into a staunch Communist Pan Africanist and moved to Ghana basically adopting Garveyism. It is the equivalent of quoting Detroit Red rather than Malcolm X(well, it's not that bad but you catch my drift) People change and develop their ideologies. I was referring to the ideology that Kwame Toure's expressed in his auto-biography which he wrote right before his death just a few years ago. The man evolved. Like us humans are supposed to.

On another note...

I'm surprised at Shango's lack of response to my post.

quote:

I'm surprised at Shango's lack of response to my post.

What post?

Maybe this is what I missed

quote:

Shango,

What do you think about this statement...

The Black women is the slave of the slave" -Kwame Nkrumah.

This statement means nothing to me.

Should it?

quote:

Originally posted by ma'am:
-Black women are still called sell-outs for reporting sexual harassment.

Unfortunately, this is true.

quote:

-Too many men, with their male privilege, try to tell us what our problems are and what our problems aren't, but don't really listen to what we say.

In my experience, much the same can be said about black women.

quote:

-Disenfranchisement from Black discussions.

I don't see women disenfrachised from black discussions any more than young men. Maybe that's just in Kentucky. But in every community event I go to the discussion is dominated by women and old men (usually clergy). OK. Maybe the old men are the top dogs. But I'm not an old man. They're still asking questions like "Why aren't the young men in church?" ... I'm not down with that ish ... and I don't feel like I have some special privilege in those situations ... To the contrary, I usually feel quite silenced, alienated, and frustrated ...

If anything, I usually feel that women have a much more prominent voice in black discussions than I do.

"Black male issues" are reduced to prisoner/gang issues. Quite frankly, those aren't my issues ...

quote:

-Disenfranchisement from women's discussions.

This I don't understand.

quote:

Originally posted by Shango67:

quote:

I'm surprised at Shango's lack of response to my post.

What post?

Good to kow it was just because you didn't see it brother...

quote:

Originally posted by Shango67:

quote:

There are benefits that black men reap over Black women....

WHAT DO THEY LOOK LIKE?

Getting an extra piece of fried chicken after Sunday Service at the church...

A special bean pie made by sister so-and-so at mosque number 7...

WHAT are the BENEFITS??????

Turn to BET for 2 minutes and then you will see what it looks like.

I can definately tell you what it feels like, and she who feels it knows it.

Shango,

What do you think about this statement...

"The Black women is the slave of the slave" -Kwame Nkrumah.

Are our most highly developed African male minds all wrong too or is it just us White 'femanist' brainwashed sisters?(I personally don't even like to identify with the femanist moovement) Kwame Ture(Stokely Carmicheal) spoke about sexism messing up the Black power movement in his autobiography... and as a female member of the Pan Africanist and Black power movements today, I can definately attest to MAJOR sexist oppression by the majority of the brothers. Let me appeal to your self interest, by pointing out that it is thwarting our collective effort towards liberation. It's hard for me to keep sistes around because of the sexism in the movement. I'm a stubborn one, so I won't budge because of chauvanism...but other sisters can't take it. The lack of female membership hurts us all. Or, is the fact that sexism is thwarting our progress as a group a non issue because it doesn't give you a benefit in the White male run society?

Sexism destroying the equal participation of Black women in the liberation struggle should be of MAJOR CONCERN.

I can't tell you how many times what I say is skipped over but if somewhone with a penis says the same thing it is listened to, by the men AND the women. I can't tell you how many times I have heard comments from brothers like, "You know so much about Africa, you must have an African boyfriend", or, "Oh, you went to Africa? Who did you go with, your husband/boyfriend?"

Or how many brothers are intimidated because they want to 'teach' their women about African culture/politics so they don't necessarily befriend me.(this has been openly admitted to me several times)

quote:

Originally posted by Shango67:
Maybe this is what I missed

quote:

Shango,

What do you think about this statement...

The Black women is the slave of the slave" -Kwame Nkrumah.

This statement means nothing to me.

Should it?

Well, maybe I pegged you wrong... I thought you said you were a Pan Africanist who was concerned with our liberation.

And please repond to the entire post...

quote:

and as a female member of the Pan Africanist and Black power movements today, I can definately attest to MAJOR sexist oppression by the majority of the brothers.

If you say so, then it must be.

As a member of several "movements" myself, I haven't seen the MAJORITY of brothers oppressing the female ranks of membership. I do see a clash of agendas when brothers and sisters come together... but I damned sure wouldn't call that oppressive, sexist, or privilege.

quote:

Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

quote:

Originally posted by Shango67:
Maybe this is what I missed

quote:

Shango,

What do you think about this statement...

The Black women is the slave of the slave" -Kwame Nkrumah.

This statement means nothing to me.

Should it?

Well, maybe I pegged you wrong... I thought you said you were a Pan Africanist who was concerned with our liberation.

And please repond to the entire post...

I need to take the entire post - bit by bit... cause it sort of rambles.

Also, if I am missing something, TEACH ME and put the bullshit aside.

What am I missing.

quote:

Kwame Ture(Stokely Carmicheal) spoke about sexism messing up the Black power movement in his autobiography...

I knew Kwame - in life and as an organizer with the Party. There were Black men in the Party who routinely dismissed Black women - and as a result, the sisters formed their own group within the Party. The solidarity among the sisters in the Party provided them with the power they needed to affect the organization's leadership, direction, and policy.

I don't think Black women should organize with Black men who practice sexism. Moreover, I personally wouldn't be a part of an organization where Black women did not hold the type of power that makes their participation meaningful.

The disconnect between Black men and women was certainly one of the reasons as to why the Black Power movement did not reach stated or unstated objectives. I would add that not only did unchecked sexism play a role in the demise, but so did feminism. In African centered movements, there is no room for either - and in the Black Power Movement - there was probably too much of both.

quote:

I can't tell you how many times what I say is skipped over but if somewhone with a penis says the same thing it is listened to, by the men AND the women. I can't tell you how many times I have heard comments from brothers like, "You know so much about Africa, you must have an African boyfriend", or, "Oh, you went to Africa? Who did you go with, your husband/boyfriend?"

This is tragic, but not universal.

quote:

Or how many brothers are intimidated because they want to 'teach' their women about African culture/politics so they don't necessarily befriend me.(this has been openly admitted to me several times)

Very stupid behavior. I wish I can find a woman who I did not have to teach.

quote:

Originally posted by Shango67:

quote:

Kwame Ture(Stokely Carmicheal) spoke about sexism messing up the Black power movement in his autobiography...

I knew Kwame - in life and as an organizer with the Party. There were Black men in the Party who routinely dismissed Black women - and as a result, the sisters formed their own group within the Party. The solidarity among the sisters in the Party provided them with the power they needed to affect the organization's leadership, direction, and policy.

I don't think Black women should organize with Black men who practice sexism. Moreover, I personally wouldn't be a part of an organization where Black women did not hold the type of power that makes their participation meaningful.

The disconnect between Black men and women was certainly one of the reasons as to why the Black Power movement did not reach stated or unstated objectives. I would add that not only did unchecked sexism play a role in the demise, but so did feminism. In African centered movements, there is no room for either - and in the Black Power Movement - there was probably too much of both.

On this we agree...

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

quote:

-Disenfranchisement from Black discussions.

I don't see women disenfrachised from black discussions any more than young men. Maybe that's just in Kentucky. But in every community event I go to the discussion is dominated by women and old men (usually clergy). OK. Maybe the old men are the top dogs. But I'm not an old man. They're still asking questions like "Why aren't the young men in church?" ... I'm not down with that ish ... and I don't feel like I have some special privilege in those situations ... To the contrary, I usually feel quite silenced, alienated, and frustrated ...

If anything, I usually feel that women have a much more prominent voice in black discussions than I do.

"Black male issues" are reduced to prisoner/gang issues. Quite frankly, those aren't my issues ...

It's interesting that you compared women and YOUNG men.

Oranges aren't anymore ignored than green apples.

It's not a good analogy, but it sounds pithy.

I think it's something you have to feel to know it exists.

But sometimes you can be talking about Black issues and how to improve our community. Deep great empowering stuff. But once you mention something related to women, you are ignored or disparaged. Yet, in the same conversatation, men are focused on. By mentioning women, the accusation that you don't know what it's like to be a man might pop up. That you're being selfish talking about women when we should be talking about the community.

On such occassions, I like to remind people that not only men make up the community, but for some reason that comes across as feminist talk (that's an f-word, btw).

And it's the same people who think they know everything about what it's like to be a woman. When it's time to scapegoat somebody, they mention women quick.

When there is a problem, it's our fault and we need to fix it. Superwomen.

But otherwise, I find our issues aren't worth talking about unless it's to show how bad it is for Black men or to show what wrong some White person did.

Like we are pawns.

And even when it's not a woman's issue, sometimes you deal with being imaginary. You can speak all you want, but what you say is ignored or regarded as silly until a man says it. AND HE CAN SAY THE SAME EXACT WORDS YOU SAID.

But more bass makes your statement genius, I suppose.

Those are the main types of disenfranchisement that I'm talking about.

If we are talking about the church, it's different. You aren't called brainwashed or whatever just for mentioning gender issues. . .but that's because these topics are rarely discussed.

Maybe you can count on Mother's Day when there is that obligatory respect women sermon. But it's not really a discussion of gender topics either.

Yes, women make up the majority of all the congregations of the churches I've attended, but it's always the men who have spoken. Lead the lectures. Tell us what's our community's problems. What we have to do to solve it.

On the occassion a woman spoke in the pulpit, it never went to community sexism or anything like that that'd probably be seen as for women.

After church I'll hear some congregation ladies expressing the same gender issues concerns that I do. Often times, more than things that I've noticed, and I'm that rarity. The f@m^i$%. The supposedly senstitive one.

But, yeah, women of various ages and femis and non talk about women's issues once they are out of the house.

During our last after service convo, we were discussing how it's interesting how whenever a local Rev is telling a story, a woman is somehow ends up the villian. Regardless of how bad a male character may be. If there is a bad guy, he'll be redeemed at the end of the sermon. Evil woman would be put in her place.

Not all revs are as blatant, but we did notice a trend when reviewing others.

They are usually interesting, but the gender discussions seem to happen away from the church. Even those as benign as that one, which knowing the rev, he'd probably get a kick out of hearing about (at least if told by one of the elders). But there is a hesitation.

Gender conversatations are held when the menfolk aren't around, I suppose as to not offend. So while women's issues don't get much church time, I attribute that to something different. A self-inflicted silence.

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

quote:

-Disenfranchisement from women's discussions.

This I don't understand.

It's similar. Minus the church stuff and being expected to fix everyone's issues.

It's like that book title, All the Women are White, All the Men are Black.

As Black discussions are dominated by men, women's discussion are dominated by Whites.

You have to do the same reminding that mentioning a Black perspective isn't separatist, as we are women, too. If you are going to improve things for women, POC must be heard.

Things are changing rapidly, but there are many times when Black and other non-White voices are still ignored until it's time to use us to show what wrong men have done.

We've been used to show how bad it is for White women, too.

I had as old feminist book that holds Black women as models of liberation. Why? Because we get to work outside the home!

Our problems were barely addressed. I don't think they even addressed why so many Black women were working outside the home.

Again. Pawns.

You are voiceless because of sex within your race and because of race within your sex.

It's taboo to mention sexism and its privileges in one group (unless it's Black female privilege), and taboo to mention racism and its privileges in the the other (unless it's about White men).

For a long time, Black women weren't to be heard. And the attitude persists.

For some reason, people have thought that getting us to not speak can be unifying.