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quote:
Originally posted by ma'am:
Ah, yes, Shango. Black women think from a "White radical feminist framework."

And wannabe Afrocentric Black men who talk the talk about "us" while refusing to pay attention to what 50% of us have to say.

Preach on!

Understanding privilege isn't a concern for you unless you aren't the one with benefit.

If this was a thread about da White man, you'd be down, right?

But ignore what's said intracommunity.

So typical. That's dangerous.

"Paying attention" WORKS BOTH WAYS!

I will never apologize for my stance against white supremacy. So you are right... if this was about "Da White man," I am down.

At the same time, I know what white feminism looks like... even when it jets out of the mouth of a sista.

Black men don't enjoy any privilege in our, or any, community in this country - but white male privilege does exist in every community in and outside of the white construct. And this is the distinction I, and others, have made. But because we are talking as BLACK MEN in a voice that is somewhat unified, the Alice Walker choir raises their voices an octave higher... so maybe we would go away.

Negrospirtual asked for our observations (brothers and sisters)... and I gave mines.

End of discussion... and if you need to call that "privilege," be my guest. I aint got no time for penis envy masked as "intracommunity" discussion.
As I said before, I applaud your decision to leave the discussion. Not because you are male, but because you are a male in denial.

And that's extra hypocritical coming from you. Against White supremacy, yet in refusal to see any privileges of Black men.

You repeatedly said there are none.

Yes, you should bow out.

Get mad at Whites when they aren't aware of their privileges, while you bask in the denial of you having any.

Fight racism. Refuse to understand sexism.

Do you.
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
quote:
You don't see it? Perhaps your privileges are blinding...

I don't see it cause the benefits of being "male" don't exist for Black men in this country.


There are benefits that black men reap over Black women....


quote:
No it brings power--over women, women seen as property, prestige after ummmm.. "bagging" as many as you can....

you are privileged among us... and increasingly I'm beginning to question that..

quote:
So at the end of the day, I am a big hit with clown negroes who hang out on the corner. Let me know when the power transfers to homeownership, low incarceration rates, low levels of under and unemployment, low murder rate, higher life expectancy, higher literacy, more college degrees, better pay, and what not.



Why don't you address the point? If you have beef with white folk... then as Black men you need to collectively figure out a way to better your condition...

As a Black man in relation to Black women you enjoy male privilege..
quote:
Originally posted by virtue/Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
quote:
Perhaps African American men enjoy a male privilege with respect to African American women?

OKAY...Cool.

What does that LOOK LIKE?

Male posturing... white girls chasing brothers???

Please


Of course, you seem to revel in it...


please

And that's coming from a smooooth operator such as YOURSELF!

Mind your manners, love
quote:
Originally posted by ma'am:
quote:
Originally posted by xxGAMBITxx:
Privledge (in the context we're discussing) implies an automatic access to various resources and outlets.


That's only part of it.

Everyone has certain privileges. Black men are included.

Quick List of Male Privilege:

-Sexual Harassment isn't regular for you when you walk down the street. You can walk down the block and feel safe. You don't feel inclined to dress feminine to lower your chances of catching attention and you don't recruit chaperones to cut down one your risk of street harassment. You don't have to think too hard about your comfort before responding to a woman's hello.

-Over 40% of guys aren't estimated to have been coerced into sex acts before the age of 18.

-You don't have the Jezebel stereotype that makes you internalize the assault. You'll less likely to hear that rape was your fault.

-The leading cause of your death for people between 15 and 34 is homicide, as it is for Black women, but unlike us, your leading cause of death isn't homicide by intimate partner and ex.

-You don't have to be too sexy to make it in the entertainment business. There is no female Biz Marke. And men get to keep all of their clothes on.

-There are less jobs legally restricted to females.

-Professional Black men also have privilege in the workplace. They out earn all women. They are more likely to reach management positions than Black women.

-Men are taken more seriously in the workplace and out. You're probably less likely to have to call over a female co-worker to testify to what you've said to a client.

-You don't have to speak in a feminine voice to convey authority.

-You aren't assumed to have slept your way to the top.

-Men in traditionally female positions are more likely to be seen as more competent--Hairdresser, "manny," nurse. While women are more likely to be seen as less competent in traditionally male positions--Carpenter, mechanic, supervisor.

-A Black father walking out on his family isn't seen as bad as a mother walking out. A father staying is automatically assumed to be good.

-You can work and have a family without scrutiny.

-You're not ass expected to bring in half the income into the home, yet do nearly all of the housework.

-You're less likely to be prodded into marriage just because you haven't had a child by 30. Your masculinity won't be questioned.

-If you say something that's disagreed with, it won't be ignored and attributed to PMS.

-Men aren't expected to play stupid in order to not scare away women.

-You're not "too strong" because you're competent.

-You're not a bitch because you are assertive.

-There is no male equivalent for the most profane of woman-specific disparaging terms.

-Men are supposed to be commended for listening to women's issues, but women are simply expected to do that for men.

-You aren't told your issues don't matter or don't affect "us." People won't assume you're gay if you focus on male issues.


The problem is that men for the most part don't recognize these as privilages.

Just as I don't recognize it as a privilage to shop in the local Wallgreens without being followed around. It seems perfectly natural to me not to be followed around as I shop. Until, of course, my wife and I get seperated in the store, and the manager starts following her around.

Much the same with heterosexual privilage. My wife and I didn't think anything of it when we went to the local Clerk of Court and asked for a mariage license. We just walked in, asked for the forms, and left.

It's easy to take for granted privilages that are denied others, because many of the privilages are invisible unless you don't have them. That's when they becone noticible.
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
quote:
Originally posted by ma'am:
quote:
Originally posted by xxGAMBITxx:
Privledge (in the context we're discussing) implies an automatic access to various resources and outlets.


That's only part of it.

Everyone has certain privileges. Black men are included.

Quick List of Male Privilege:

-Sexual Harassment isn't regular for you when you walk down the street. You can walk down the block and feel safe. You don't feel inclined to dress feminine to lower your chances of catching attention and you don't recruit chaperones to cut down one your risk of street harassment. You don't have to think too hard about your comfort before responding to a woman's hello.

-Over 40% of guys aren't estimated to have been coerced into sex acts before the age of 18.

-You don't have the Jezebel stereotype that makes you internalize the assault. You'll less likely to hear that rape was your fault.

-The leading cause of your death for people between 15 and 34 is homicide, as it is for Black women, but unlike us, your leading cause of death isn't homicide by intimate partner and ex.

-You don't have to be too sexy to make it in the entertainment business. There is no female Biz Marke. And men get to keep all of their clothes on.

-There are less jobs legally restricted to females.

-Professional Black men also have privilege in the workplace. They out earn all women. They are more likely to reach management positions than Black women.

-Men are taken more seriously in the workplace and out. You're probably less likely to have to call over a female co-worker to testify to what you've said to a client.

-You don't have to speak in a feminine voice to convey authority.

-You aren't assumed to have slept your way to the top.

-Men in traditionally female positions are more likely to be seen as more competent--Hairdresser, "manny," nurse. While women are more likely to be seen as less competent in traditionally male positions--Carpenter, mechanic, supervisor.

-A Black father walking out on his family isn't seen as bad as a mother walking out. A father staying is automatically assumed to be good.

-You can work and have a family without scrutiny.

-You're not ass expected to bring in half the income into the home, yet do nearly all of the housework.

-You're less likely to be prodded into marriage just because you haven't had a child by 30. Your masculinity won't be questioned.

-If you say something that's disagreed with, it won't be ignored and attributed to PMS.

-Men aren't expected to play stupid in order to not scare away women.

-You're not "too strong" because you're competent.

-You're not a bitch because you are assertive.

-There is no male equivalent for the most profane of woman-specific disparaging terms.

-Men are supposed to be commended for listening to women's issues, but women are simply expected to do that for men.

-You aren't told your issues don't matter or don't affect "us." People won't assume you're gay if you focus on male issues.


The problem is that men for the most part don't recognize these as privilages.

Just as I don't recognize it as a privilage to shop in the local Wallgreens without being followed around. It seems perfectly natural to me not to be followed around as I shop. Until, of course, my wife and I get seperated in the store, and the manager starts following her around.

Much the same with heterosexual privilage. My wife and I didn't think anything of it when we went to the local Clerk of Court and asked for a mariage license. We just walked in, asked for the forms, and left.

It's easy to take for granted privilages that are denied others, because many of the privilages are invisible unless you don't have them. That's when they becone noticible.

I know what handcuffs look like when the cops come to my home during a domestic dispute

I know what the pavement looks like during a routine car stop

I know how family court works when I seek custody of my children... especially Black BOYS

I know what it looks like to have a sista beat you out of job because the boss man likes the size of her ass

After manuevering through the complex waters of amerikkkan society, I deserve some benefits. Just don't know where they are being handed out.
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
quote:
Originally posted by virtue/Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:

Mind your manners, love


Don't tell me what to do...

In regards to me, you need not try to shoot up my character. You try to put me on blast and think I am going to remain quiet???

Now go get me a bean pie


Don't tell me what to do..
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
It's easy to take for granted privilages that are denied others, because many of the privilages are invisible unless you don't have them. That's when they becone noticible.

Very well said. appl

Main Entry: priv·i·lege

Pronunciation: 'priv-lij, 'pri-v&-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin privilegium law for or against a private person, from privus private + leg-, lex law
: a right or immunity granted as a peculiar benefit, advantage, or favor : PREROGATIVE; especially : such a right or immunity attached specifically to a position or an office

In order for said right or immunity to be deemed "peculiar"... it must be selective in it's application. No matter what form of privilege we are refering to, it would be wise for us to remember that those the said privilege applies to (those who hold the applicable position) will not see this as peculiar. That is, unless they have made an earnest effort to put themselves in someone else's shoes.

Far too few people engage in this practice for it to be taken for granted, and therefore considered the norm.
wow!
so many great points and so much passion. Having said that...

Black feminist thought is not merely regurgitated "radical" white feminist thought. Everyone should know by now that BLack Feminist Thought is referred to as WOMANISM.

Black women never wholesale participated in the feminist movement which was attached to other movements of the 60's. BLack women were loathe to chose between being black (and fighting racial oppression) and being female (fighting sexism)

Alice Walker, Toni Morrison, bell hooks, and others can in no way be grouped together with the betty friedans of the world.

WOMANISM recognizes that black women often define themselves in relationship to their family experience and therefore are less likely to align themselves with causes which force a choice between gender and race.

Some seem to regard "feminism" as a dirty word. and a word only associated with white women. I do not view it as such and eye those who do suspiciously. What kind of person does not wish women (including mamas, daughters, auntees, sisters)the freedom to evolve into the most complete expression of feminine energy GOD (in all her infinite wisdom) meant women to be?

an evolving black woman can only be benificial to the black family.
quote:
Black feminist thought is not merely regurgitated "radical" white feminist thought. Everyone should know by now that BLack Feminist Thought is referred to as WOMANISM.


But the purpose of this thread was never to make distinctions between "White feminism" or "Black feminism" or to argue if whether or not Black male priviledge exists. We realize that for some, Black male privilege does not exist, at least not to the same degree as White male privilege. Therefore, I am baffled as to why Brother Shango is making his argument so strongly when no one here would ever refute the fact that Black men do not enjoy the same rights and privleges as White men. That is a no-brainer, and so whether or not Black men have it ruff in a White man's world is not up for debate.

The focus of this discussion, however, is on how all men in our society benefit in some way or another from a culture that clearly favors the leadership and natural tendencies of men in general. "Competitiveness," "aggression," "conflict," leadership," "strength," and "determination," these are all characteristics that the workforce rewards and favors. But these characteristics are also very masculine. Therefore, in my view, to be born a male child in a male-centered culture that reinforces and rewards male proclivities is indeed a privilege. In fact, just to be recognized in a male-dominated workforce, women have had to "toughten up" their character in order to be accepted into a White male-dominated network. The woman who successfully exemplifies masculine traits in her work behavior, attitude, self-expression, and even in her attire, tends to get the most respect from her male colleagues. Thus, being a "Strong Black Woman" has become not a choice, but a requirement if a woman who works outside the home is to be successful in a society where being "considerate," and "kind" gets you nowhere and does not pay off.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Black feminist thought is not merely regurgitated "radical" white feminist thought. Everyone should know by now that BLack Feminist Thought is referred to as WOMANISM.



The focus of this discussion IS on how all men in our society benefit in some way or another from a culture that clearly favors and defers to the leadership of men in general, particularly in religious institutions where men, whether women support such institutions or not, are expected to submit to the leadership of men.... that to submit to your husband means to be a "good Christian woman." Therefore, in my view, to be born a male child in a male-centered culture that reinforces male superiority is indeed a PRIVILEGE.


I'm not disagreeing with any of the ladies. I'm inclined to accept much of your analysis.

But being a black man who is very alienated from the black church in particular, I do not participate in that particular (major) aspect of male privilege.

I always look on with a sense of deep irony and sadness at black women who on the one hand complain bitterly about patriarchy in the church ... but on the other will defend it to their last breath against heathen like me ...

As an outsider to this institution, I have felt triply marginalized ... black and non-Christian and moreover having to live in a black world which tilts towards matriarchal Christian women who prefer "good Christian men" to men like myself ....

It's even more ironic since by white standards I might be called a "feminist" ... who cooks, cleans, and believes in sharing duties and decision making ...

Again ... not necessarily disagreeing ... but sharing ...
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
as an aside...

have you ever entered a discussion with white people about the effections of racial discrimination and they refuse to admit that it exists? or that the behaviors of white people are in any way racially motivated? and then they accuse you of being too focused on race?



Sure. Again. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that, at least as it relates to the black church, I do not experience male privilege ...

But instead am discriminated against because I'm an outsider to it.
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
as an aside...

have you ever entered a discussion with white people about the effections of racial discrimination and they refuse to admit that it exists? or that the behaviors of white people are in any way racially motivated? and then they accuse you of being too focused on race?


I had another thought...

Have you heard it said that blacks cannot truly be racist since they do not have the institutional power to enforce?

I suppose I'm extending this analysis to the present situation.

For one such as myself, black male privilege within what institutional context?


PS: so sue me ... I'm multiple posting ... but I had another thought which arose right after I last hit the post button ... Wink
bro HB,

i only used church as one example where the concept of male privilege exists. I have witnessed it in work situations and relationship situations. I think Ma'am did an excellent job of describing it in action in one of her earlier posts.

but anecdotally speaking

if i am sitting in a black community action meeting and i am expected to take notes, serve chips and soda, or clean up....that to me is male priv.

if i live with you and i work a full time job and you expect me to cook, clean, smell good, and make love to you when you get home...that to me is male priv.

if you can criticise me but become belligerant when I criticise you because you believe me to be "out of place"....that to me is male priv.

if you refuse to wear condoms to prevent unwanted pregnancy or protect your loved one from disease because you don't like how it feels...that is male priv at work.

if you expect to be served

if you expect to be agreed with

if you expect to be loved

if you expect to be in control of everything

because you are male

that is male privilege at work. I believe this does seep into black male/female relationships and I believe it to be deleterious...

your thoughts? Have you witnessed such attitudes? have you displayed them?
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
I always look on with a sense of deep irony and sadness at black women who on the one hand complain bitterly about patriarchy in the church ... but on the other will defend it to their last breath against heathen like me ...

As an outsider to this institution, I have felt triply marginalized ... black and non-Christian and moreover having to live in a black world which tilts towards matriarchal Christian women who prefer "good Christian men" to men like myself ....

Again ... not necessarily disagreeing ... but sharing ...


And brother, we definitely appreciatie your sharing this insight and perspective with us rather than becoming defensive and hostile against what you are reading. To follow up on your response, I have an older sister who is a stay-at-home-mom and has five children, but she is also religious and so is her husband. They both discovered each other at church. Because she knew right from the beginning what kind of values she held and what kind of marriage she wanted, she sought out this type of relationsip and does not compalin about their agreed-upon arrangement.

It is usually women who are not religious and who do not share these kinds of values (A "virtuous" woman should be remain a virgin until she is married, and be submissive to her husband) that complains and expresses their disagreement with the patriarchy in religious institutions. Therefore, it is unfair to lump all of us women together.

When I was a avid church-goer, the women belonging to my church strongly supported their pastor and his instruction to be submissive to their husbands. As far as they were concerned, this is way that the Holy BIBLE instructs women on how they should relate to their husbands, and any man for that matter who is in a position of leadership. Thanks for sharing!!
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quote:
It is usually women who are not religious and who do not share these kinds of values (A "virtuous" woman should be remain a virgin until she is married, and be submissive to her husband) that complains and expresses their disagreement with the patriarchy in religious institutions. Therefore, it is unfair to lump all of us women together.



this post reeks of judgement. You have no clue what kind of "values" women who want to be treated well by men have other than the ones they express. please speak of what you know. nono
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
bro HB,

i only used church as one example where the concept of male privilege exists. I have witnessed it in work situations and relationship situations. I think Ma'am did an excellent job of describing it in action in one of her earlier posts.

but anecdotally speaking

if i am sitting in a black community action meeting and i am expected to take notes, serve chips and soda, or clean up....that to me is male priv.

if i live with you and i work a full time job and you expect me to cook, clean, smell good, and make love to you when you get home...that to me is male priv.

if you can criticise me but become belligerant when I criticise you because you believe me to be "out of place"....that to me is male priv.

if you refuse to wear condoms to prevent unwanted pregnancy or protect your loved one from disease because you don't like how it feels...that is male priv at work.

if you expect to be served

if you expect to be agreed with

if you expect to be loved

if you expect to be in control of everything

because you are male

that is male privilege at work. I believe this does seep into black male/female relationships and I believe it to be deleterious...

your thoughts? Have you witnessed such attitudes? have you displayed them?



Sister negrospiritual, yes I have witnessed all of these things.

I don't deny that it exists. And that it is unjust. Not at all.

But personally, I can honestly say that I haven't been guilty of any of the specific things you mention in your post ... except expecting love from someone with whom I'm in a relationship.

I will share that in my library, among all the books on philosophy and other subjects, I have a fair number of cook books.

In my relationships, I have been the primary meal preparer. Night after night, I've been the one to have a hot meal on the table after work. And all my ex girlfriends agree ... I'm an excellent cook ... and I wind up as the primary cook because I'm better at it ... Smile ... I'm also usually the server ... nobody ever complained about me being controlling in this area ... although I dated this one woman who said a cooking man turned her on ... and so she would try to get lovey dovey while I was sweating over the stove ... I'd get a bit irritated since I didn't want my food to burn ... Smile

I share household cleaning duties equally. And I believe in joint decision-making. And in love making only when the energy and mood are right. Wink

But I do recognize that there are probably other ways in which I am privileged as a male. And moreover I am probably atypical as a black male. So I don't disagree with much of your observations.

To sista Rowe, you are right. I shouldn't say that all women are in the church (although where I live it might very well be the case) ...

But strangely enough, the bitterest complaint against patriarchy (that I've personally ever heard come from a black woman) came from a sista who happened to be deeply committed to the church. No lie. I did find it very odd.

But you're right. I shouldn't generalize based on a few examples.
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I have had extremely serious 'discussions' with some of the elder women in the church and in my family on some of the things listed by 'negrospiritual: i.e.

if you expect to be served

if you expect to be agreed with

if you expect to be loved

if you expect to be in control of everything

because you are male

that is male privilege at work. I believe this does seep into black male/female relationships and I believe it to be deleterious...

your thoughts? Have you witnessed such attitudes? have you displayed them?
-----------------

Every christmas, and other holidays, the women cook, the men sit in the den or living room and watch football games; I do'nt neessarily have a problem with that, but one particular holiday, I had to work and came to the family festivities late. As I was arriving, I arrived at the same time as my two brothers,my sister and two of her girlfriends an uncle, and three male church members. As we all walked in, two of my aunts immediately began instructing me and my sister to begin making plates for my brothers, uncle, and the three male church members. My sisters friends were told to fix their own plates.

I had'nt even taken off my coat, and neither of my [male] siblings had worked that holiday.
Needless to say, I refused, said they could fix their own plates, except for the three church members, and proceeded to fix my plate. My older family members were livid; one is a ministers' wife, the other is a 'pillar' of the church. We almost 'went there', as they began quoting scripture at me about how the woman was to obey her husband, or, how the man is the head, and that that was what was wrong with the black community and so on.

I refrained from saying what was on my mind, and left the kitchen. That's one example, and as I stated, I do not have a problem with treating men, who are special to me, in a special manner but that 'jumping to attention' for men, simply 'because is an example of 'men expecting to be served' as in that example, irked me. I suppose this would fall in line with women expecting doors to be held open, or seats to be given to them, on public transportation, and in general. Gender equality vs gender inequality.
quote:
I'm not disagreeing with any of the ladies. I'm inclined to accept much of your analysis.

But being a black man who is very alienated from the black church in particular, I do not participate in that particular (major) aspect of male privilege.

I always look on with a sense of deep irony and sadness at black women who on the one hand complain bitterly about patriarchy in the church ... but on the other will defend it to their last breath against heathen like me ...

As an outsider to this institution, I have felt triply marginalized ... black and non-Christian and moreover having to live in a black world which tilts towards matriarchal Christian women who prefer "good Christian men" to men like myself ....

It's even more ironic since by white standards I might be called a "feminist" ... who cooks, cleans, and believes in sharing duties and decision making ...

Again ... not necessarily disagreeing ... but sharing ...

HB, this was well said and I would like to cosign to it.

I am not part of ANY Black organization where women are marginalized - especially the Black church.
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
I'm not quite sure how to broach this topic without some negative vibe. I am interested in sistas' and brothas' feelings about the concept of male privilege. In church, and community organizations there are some roles which seem automatically expected of sistas. Is it spiritually, naturally, socially right to assert that a man should make decisions, lead the unit, have his voice heard, or be served simply because he is a man? Is this the natural order of things? How does this affect sistas? Does male privilege seep into work? relationships? spiritual? family? Is it a useful concept? Your thoughts?


I think its preference and mutual respect for the idea...

any idea that you hold... must be agreed to and performed out of respect for one another...

I enjoy having the man as the head.... I don't want an equal partner... I desire a man, in the "antiquated" sense... I want to be the neck that guides the head... Wink

I like men to be men in the traditional sense.... and this is what I'm used to.... I don't try to interfere with that too much.... but to be the head doesn't mean to be ruler over me totally.... it means a position in the household, which has different duties and functions than me... it is not personal.... it is institutional.. in a marriage..

I like serving... so, I don't see what other women see.... when I walk into a room with my man, I just wanna serve something because I like to cook, and I know it will be appreciated.... after awhile he expects it because it becomes habitual for me to do so... I've never had a problem with a man abusing this privilege... if he's reasonable and shares the same values that I do....

I've just never looked at it as an affront...

unless I didn't know the man... if he wasn't part of my family or extended network of friends somehow...

just being male doesn't garner that type of attention... being MY man does....

I don't feel negatively affected.... because there is mutual satisfaction...

I simply like to make my man feel good... and I happen to be versed in arts that the type of man I go for likes... I love to cook... I love to keep a clean house.... I love to serve.... and I love being classically feminine.... I'm most comfortable in that role...


just my preference is all....



Peace,
Khalliqa
quote:
Originally posted by nayo:

I had'nt even taken off my coat, and neither of my [male] siblings had worked that holiday.
Needless to say, I refused, said they could fix their own plates, except for the three church members, and proceeded to fix my plate. My older family members were livid; one is a ministers' wife, the other is a 'pillar' of the church. We almost 'went there', as they began quoting scripture at me about how the woman was to obey her husband, or, how the man is the head, and that that was what was wrong with the black community and so on.


Your story reminded me ... Every holiday when I visit my family there is a big meal ... and then my stepfather's mother (someone help me out - step grandmother?) directs me through the preparation of a plate:

"Baby, if you want bread, it's on top of the refrigerator ... do you like hot sauce on top of such and such?... the hot sauce is over there ... there's pie and cake and ... "

And this continues until I'm done preparing my plate.

I never object since she's trying to be helpful ... but I always wish she'd just leave me alone. I'm a grown man that knows his way around a kitchen. I know what I like and the way I like it and can prepare my own plate without help.

I thought it was interesting, Nayo, that your female family members were directing this male serving tendency.

Question: How much of this is due to actual male expectations of females and how much of this is due to females enforcing tradition (i.e., following the example set by their mothers)?

Is there reciprocity between the two?

Have any of you ever had an unpleasant experience with a black male for failing to fulfill the traditional gender role? Did this experience enforce certain behaviors? Please share.

This might help to enlighten us men a little more.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Question: How much of this is due to actual male expectations of females and how much of this is due to females enforcing tradition (i.e., following the example set by their mothers)?

Is there reciprocity between the two?

Have any of you ever had an unpleasant experience with a black male for failing to fulfill the traditional gender role? Did this experience enforce certain behaviors? Please share.

This might help to enlighten us men a little more.


There is very much a male expectation in my family. Most won't say they look for us women to cook and take up after them because of gender, but guess who are the only people they have the nerve to use?

And when a guy asks a guy to do something, they both act as if it's a huge deal. The asker really needs help. The asked won't forget the day he had to break a sweat for a sibling.

If a woman says that something is an inconvenience, everyone badmouths her for being petty and self-centered.

Rant here about sexism in my upbringing.

Nayo's holiday story is very familiar. Although the best in the kitchen in fam are bros and male cousins, the story remains the same.

My family has the additional ridiculousness in that my nieces are expected to go-fer for grown men and their brothers, even while the males do nothing. The girls are starting to point out the discrepancy, which results in their parents sometimes sending their brothers to "go HELP your sister."

Eh. It's progress.

I'm proud that lately the girls are getting better at simply refusing while explaining that if they have to do everything themselves, why can their brothers, who are older, do the same. Very valid.

I remember only one time a boy being asked to go get something for the men. The boy was in shock. My brother was taken back by his how dare you attitude.

His mother vowed that her boys were going to have more responsibilies like their sister.

I didn't see it until very recently when the boys were ready. They don't get asked to do stuff, but they might take the initiative to get something for others. They get big praise for their maturity, unlike their sister. Because it's expected of her.

The girls are still the ones initially sent to serve. Sometimes the women will say: You have to get used to this, you'll have a husband, your parents, and "a ton-a-pickney" to take care of one day. You can't be lazy.

Some women, like my mom, will say that she likes equality, but there is a reality that women have more responsibilities, and she wants the girls to grow up capable to handle what they might face.

The boys never get such advice. I haven't heard the men say those things, but their mentality and expectations are sexist, too.

Of course I've had problems with many Black men for not doing the waiting hand and foot thing.

I used to hear some older guys get on my mom thinking she wasn't teaching me my place. In different words. . .sometimes. Usually it was something along: What are you teaching that girl? She didn't wash her brother's dish. How will she ever get married?

Some of my brothers try to get on my case without saying the word "Women should." Once I point that out is their sexism, they usually shut up for a sec and cut down on their requests to women to show how genderblind they are.

Only once did one try to argue that the family isn't sexist. He was saying that he is expected to do things. So I asked him to list.

Some things he mentioned he only had to do a few times. For almost everything he mentioned, I was told to do and more often. And it was then that we realized that I was given these expectations at a way younger age. Cleaning up after people, serving, taking care of the kids--Almost everything selfless. And that he often expects me to get a plate for him, yet he never handed me a glass of OJ (except for one time after the discussion).

He couldn't deny, but still had trouble seeing how it is sexist. Even though my sisters have it like me and worse, while my brothers have it like him.

He's back to the hushing up and the playing genderblind thing when we "go there." I think that's easier than for them to say, yes, we do have certain privileges.

The only male privilege I've ever heard him acknowledge, inside the home or out, is when it comes to street harassment and physical strength.

And he's the only guy in my family that I can think of right now who has ever admitted ANY benefit from being male.

*grr*

When my nephews see all of the women busy and all the men chilling, yet pester us for something, I used to ask why they didn't ask an uncle. They used to say, "You're tanties." As a polite: I male. You female. You fix me a dish, woman.

Thankfully, most have grown out of this and if they really need help, they'll ask an uncle. And when the uncles start whining, they explain that everyone else is busy and cheekily reassure them that they are capable of helping to fix a sandwich.

My dad frequently laments about me not being raised by my grandmother. He says I'm too American and he thinks that if I were raised by her, I'd stop giving the guys directions to the kitchen when I smell sexism. But, to be fair, my father isn't as sexist as others. He want me prepared for what he sees as the inevitable. Like Ma.

I occassionally have old men asking me what they asked my mother as a child. Wondering why I'm not being more traditional. But I haven't had peers pushing traditionalism on me.

Quite a few are in tune to their privileges and see them as such.

The people who push haven't really changed me. Actually, watching the difference between my nieces and nephews has made me more set in my belief that we need balance and vocal when I'm approached with the bull. At least when it comes to people who are influences in their lives.

I usually don't waste my breath on others.

They don't want to know.
quote:
Originally posted by ma'am:
The only male privilege I've ever heard him acknowledge, inside the home or out, is when it comes to street harassment and physical strength.

And he's the only guy in my family that I can think of right now who has ever admitted ANY benefit from being male.

*This is not directed soley at you ma'am. It's just that the quote above made me think of it.*

Maybe it's just me, but in many of these examples you ladies seem to be picking.

Yes, women are far more likely to be harrassed by men on the street than men are to be harrassed by women. However, men are far more likely to be harrassed by police officers on the street than women are.

Yes, men have the capacity for greater physical strength than women. However, that's only a capacity... not an inevitability. I've known women who could bench press my entire weight and then some.

I'm reading a lot of complaining about who does the serving at dinner time. But, is that all there is to do in life? Is there no purpose that men serve in your lives? I get the impression that the perception here is that men do nothing except sit around, grow fat, and demand to be waited on hand and foot. If that's the case, why have them around at all?

Is there no privilege women have that men do not? Truthfully, are there no advantages or privileges you see in being a woman?
quote:
Maybe it's just me, but in many of these examples you ladies seem to be picking.

Yes, women are far more likely to be harrassed by men on the street than men are to be harrassed by women. However, men are far more likely to be harrassed by police officers on the street than women are.

Yes, men have the capacity for greater physical strength than women. However, that's only a capacity... not an inevitability. I've known women who could bench press my entire weight and then some.

I'm reading a lot of complaining about who does the serving at dinner time. But, is that all there is to do in life? Is there no purpose that men serve in your lives? I get the impression that the perception here is that men do nothing except sit around, grow fat, and demand to be waited on hand and foot. If that's the case, why have them around at all?

Is there no privilege women have that men do not? Truthfully, are there no advantages or privileges you see in being a woman?

DIG IT!!!!!!

tfro

Growing up with a sister, grandmother, and mother, my privileges were;

Clean out the gutters and bag the leaves
Make sure the driveway was shoveled on snow days
Cut the grass during spring and summer seasons
Rake the leaves during the fall
Water the lawn
Weed
Maintain the cars; including my sister's when she started to drive
Repair anything that happened on the roof (if possible)
Clean and organize a two car garage
Clean and organize the shed in the backyard
Occasionally clean the septic tank
Bag weekly garbage and take it to the town dump
Cook
Wash dishes
Help grandma when her motor skills decreased
Walk dog twice a day (although the dog belonged to sis)
Feed dog and make sure water dish was full
Transport sister to and from HER activities
Fight dudes who stepped to my sister
Numerous grocery store runs and other errands
Kitchen duty
Vacuum
Mop floors
Clean bathroom
ANY OTHER DUTIES

My reward: Watch the Thanksgiving Day NFL game in fucking peace without some woman asking me to do something. And as it turns out, moms, grandma, sister, female cousins, auntie, would still run into the den every 15 minutes with some type of silly ass request.

My sister was treated like her hands were fragile - and princess girl had very little to do in terms of chores... especially when pops was around. My relationships with women were pretty much the same. If I change the oil on my girl's car, can a brother get a plate and a glass of cold water without being labeled an oppressive, misogynistic, chauvinist pig?
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quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
If I change the oil on my girl's car, can a brother get a plate and a glass of cold water without being labeled an oppressive, misogynistic, chauvinist pig?

yeah appl

Reminds me of my parents. In 35 years of marriage, my father has never washed a dish. He doesn't do dishes. My mother does them all.

On the flip side, my mother doesn't do cars. She doesn't do maintainence or deal with mechanics. She doesn't even pump her own gas. My father does it all.

Who's the privileged one?

PS. Shango, without going into all the details... I'm definitely feeling you on the "sister/princess complex".
Im going to chime in....because im still living at home (no matter which state).......and i have a very large family.

I never thought about "male privileges". I actually always thought it 'was' different for black men, than white. (At least the black men that had families, and supported them fully).

Hearing stories of the way black men were treated, and how difficult it was for them to make a living, supporting their families etc.....it brought to mind, how and why he deserved to be valued, adored and admired. The only people in his life, that would do this.....of course would be his family.

Things changed as time went on....women had to work to help support the family. It was hard for women to work all day.....cook, clean, and run behind the children when they got home. So my family had to find 'balance' to help ease the fact, that mommy wasnt home. Dad had to help with food shopping, homework, baths, and play time. Mom dealt with dinner, cleaning.....and what else needed to done. They worked as a team......

As i got older, we had choices of what job, we wanted to do. I had issues with cleaning the kitchen, etc.......so mom suggested that i go outside, in 90 degree weather to cut the grass. Needless to say, i LOVE cleaning the kitcen!! Smile

My point is this........

When i get married......and i want to treat him as 'privileged'....it will be because he deserves it. Hes someone that i love.....and my goal would be to make his harsh life (as a black man) comfortable. Im quite sure that his thoughts would be the same. Smile
quote:
Shango, without going into all the details... I'm definitely feeling you on the "sister/princess complex".

Yeah... and the DISPARITY in TREATMENT continues to THIS very day. I don't even remember my sister getting a spanking, let alone a strong tounge lashing.

And I was the GOOD kid.

Me... well... let's just say, if getting ass whopping was a professional sport, I would be in the Hall of Fame.
quote:
When i get married......and i want to treat him as 'privileged'....it will be because he deserves it. Hes someone that i love.....and my goal would be to make his harsh life (as a black man) comfortable. Im quite sure that his thoughts would be the same

DAMN SKIPPY!

and


Where do I sign up?


and


Are there any other sistas out there like YOU?
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
quote:
Shango, without going into all the details... I'm definitely feeling you on the "sister/princess complex".

Yeah... and the DISPARITY in TREATMENT continues to THIS very day. I don't even remember my sister getting a spanking, let alone a strong tounge lashing.

And I was the GOOD kid.

Me... well... let's just say, if getting ass whopping was a professional sport, I would be in the Hall of Fame.



I hear you! It was very similar in my family ... The women did not do very much. And to this day my sister still can't do very much in terms of housework ... whenever I visit her she presents me with one work request after another.
..."I'm reading a lot of complaining about who does the serving at dinner time. But, is that all there is to do in life? Is there no purpose that men serve in your lives? I get the impression that the perception here is that men do nothing except sit around, grow fat, and demand to be waited on hand and foot. If that's the case, why have them around at all?

Is there no privilege women have that men do not? Truthfully, are there no advantages or privileges you see in being a woman?...."
---------------------------------------------


To reduce this discussion to 'washing dishes and serving a plate of food',is disengenuous(sp). The intent of my point in this discussion was not that that men, black men in this case, sit about like 'arab princes's' waiting for women to service them, [unless you visit church functions, with church patriarchy waited on hand and foot], But,that because of the changing needs of requiring two incomes, that women are still perceived as 'secondary' in terms of cognitive abilities, both in the work place and home, and still perceived as 'grown children'. For myself, the 'housework' expectation is, more or less, symbolic of the 'role' that women are relegated to; of course men take care of the 'dirty work', but so do women; I appreciate that men 'like' doing dirty work, but when times are rough, women havd had to roll up their sleeves and get with it.

When growing up, as the eldest, I took out the garbage, cut the grass, and when the plumbing failed, 'assisted' my dad, in fixing the pipes. My brothers, know cars, most teenage boys do. My sisters and I, took our cars to the mechanic, or boyfriends/uncles worked on them. I think the point of this discussion is being disparaged; my point is that the perception of male 'superiority', is presented as 'truth', [and superiority in all things to do with leadership skills, management etc] reality if you will, and that to reduce this to house-keeping, steers the focus away from what is, in my view important, that the construct of male privilege/dominance, does exist. How one conducts their intimate and interpersonal relationships, is one's personal business; but how the world is structured, as regards white male dominance, and male dominance, should not be casually dismissed as the rant of an 'oprahesque' mentality.
quote:
Originally posted by nayo:
I think the point of this discussion is being disparaged; my point is that the perception of male 'superiority', is presented as 'truth', [and superiority in all things to do with leadership skills, management etc] reality if you will, and that to reduce this to house-keeping, steers the focus away from what is, in my view important, that the construct of male privilege/dominance, does exist. How one conducts their intimate and interpersonal relationships, is one's personal business; but how the world is structured, as regards white male dominance, and male dominance, should not be casually dismissed as the rant of an 'oprahesque' mentality.



Nayo, I agree with the central thrust of what you write. As I have said before I consider myself a "feminist" and oppose all forms of oppression.

Speaking for myself, I was not attempting to minimize the reality of female oppression. But rather trying to relate to the sistas why it is that we black males - specifically the ones participating in this discussion - have difficulty appreciating whatever male privilege we enjoy.

Again, when we talk about how the "world is structured" you're talking about institutional structure. And like brother Shango has said, we ain't got no institutional power. In my work place I'm the only black period. In particular, I'm not enjoying any privileges over black women there. And I'm having to defend my own competence on the job.

The conversation shifted to these more intimate areas, in part, because that is precisely where male privilege would be most visible to us as marginalized black men - within the institution of family.

I myself see this with my mother who in her second marriage very much plays the traditional role. I resent like crazy seeing my mother waiting on grown men hand and foot (cooking, washing dishes, laundry, etc.) while all these grown folks know how to do is eat and belch.
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quote:
Originally posted by nayo:
To reduce this discussion to 'washing dishes and serving a plate of food',is disengenuous(sp).

No one has attemted to reduce this discussion to anything, and to suggest otherwise is disengenous.

I said...
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
Maybe it's just me, but in many of these examples you ladies seem to be picking...

...I'm reading a lot of complaining about who does the serving at dinner time.

This is true. There are a great many posts in this thread where the women are using examples of "washing dishes and serving a plate of food" as examples of male privilege. If those examples have any relevence to the topic, then so do the counter-examples.

Otherwise... it's picking.

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