The label "Angry Black Man" was once popularized among white racists out of fear and among Blacks out of admiration, referring to the pro-Black revolutionary man who spoke against oppression and stood defiantly against racism and injustice. Today, another angry icon is being ignominiously popularized among Black men (and women) out of repulsion, referring to the single Black woman with an obstinate attitude who appears angry at everything in general, but at the Black man in particular: The Angry Black Woman. The Angry Black Woman can be identified by her attitude, her conversation and sometimes, even her body language. Sometimes it's in the twist of the neck, or a dismissive roll of the eyes during normal conversation. Sometimes it's in the sharp tongue that lashes out with shrill, unsolicited criticism or advice, which is typically baseless and negative. The Angry Black Woman may refer to herself as a strong Black woman, or an independent woman, but may be called a bitch by men and women. This woman will refer to ALL Black men as weak, lazy and beneath her, while identifying them as the sole source of all of her woes, particularly her inability to find her desired mate. Her conversation with other women is rife with hopelessness and negativity. The Angry Black Woman may be otherwise desirable, but is unable to move beyond past pain and fear, which sits on her shoulders as bitterness and anger, driving most good things out of her life. Holding on to that bitterness can bring dire consequences. In her struggle for both the rights of Blacks and the rights of women, Maida S. Kemp, the former president of the National Council of Negro Women cautioned women against bitterness."Unless a woman learns not to be bitter about defeats and not to be arrogant about successes, each of them, both your success and your defeat can limit you," Kemp warned. Bitterness has shown up in dating more than any other arena. Each of us who dates has had bad experiences, no matter how lengthy or brief. If we take those experiences personally, then they become a part of who we are and we use them to judge all others. Thus, "all men" (or from a burned out man's perspective, "all women") are screwed up. Anger is also infectious. When someone comes at us with anger, it is easy to absorb it and become changed. I've been temporarily infected by the attacks of angry, negative people with nothing productive or positive to bring, who expect me to dialogue in a civil manner. I rebuke them and avoid further contact, leaving the bitterness in quarantine. I have literally listened to bitter women tell me horrible things about myself and after they finish, I have to ask them who they are talking about, because often, not even the situations are relevant to me--its all from their past or conjured up by their fear. As humans, we have choices, and we don't have to be bitter. I have been hurt by Black women, but I moved on, convinced that the ones who hurt me may have been weak, but that they were not representative of ALL Black women. I also considered my own choices, and that perhaps I was weak when dating them. The key for me is that after each of my painful experiences, I took a vacation from dating. The last vacation became a lengthy period of celibacy and healing, which kept my head and heart clear. Many otherwise decent and kind women become angry and bitter after spending too much time with men who disappoint them. Quite honestly, if you don't see what you want in someone, you have to ask YOURSELF why you are wasting yourself on them, allowing them to taint your perspective. If you play in the mud, you can't help but get dirty. Both men and women have to learn to just wait until something good comes along, instead of trying to see something good simply because waiting doesn't feel good. According to poet Nikki Giovanni, "most of us love from our need to love, not because we find someone deserving." In many cases, anger is simply a reaction to fear, but it can be used productively, as advised by noted author Zora Neale Hurston: "The thing to do is to grab the broom of anger and drive off the beast of fear." The voices of those who embrace anger and negativity are loud and overabundant, raging in malignant magazine articles, on low brow television shows and in circles of negative friends. Those voices spread the propaganda that all Black men are out to hurt Black women, are beneath them and/or have no desire to marry them (A recent issue of Essence Magazine muses: "Do Black Men Still Love Us?" Yet another issue poses: "He cheated. Now What?"). Negativity, like the dark side of the force, is seductive and is a breeding ground for anger. When we hear negative things and we are already in pain, our hearts are prepped for anything that will mask the pain. Nothing masks pain the way anger does. In fact, anger feeds off of the pain and makes the host believe that there is actually no pain at all. The result of submission to negativity is a life filled with hopelessness and fear, which often shows up as anger. There is a deep-seated pathology involved when humans begin to embrace hopelessness. That pathology has manifest itself in a masked depression showing up in a great number of unmarried, thirty-something and forty-something Black women. According to LaVerne Porter Wheatley Perry, a clinical psychologist, "hopelessness is a Black female learned attitude. Black females appear chronically depressed"”what we call low-level depression in my field. That means you ain't depressed enough to really go crazy. You're working too hard to have time to think about killing yourself..." There can be happiness at the end of the rainbow, even if the struggle to be happy is an arduous one. But the Angry Black Woman must understand that there is no good result from anger. I submit that you take a break, take it easy and take inventory of your past disappointments, so that you do not allow them to cloud your present or future. You can use your experience to teach you what you should avoid, so that you can focus on what is good for you. For all of my sisters who are angry at men, I have a proposal: Let's begin to talk"”men and women"”to each other and not about each other. Let's remove the resentment as well as the fear that drives us apart. Let's focus on the promise of the future and not the mistakes of the past so that we can stand together again. Maybe these poetic hopes of mine are whimsical and maybe these silly dreams won't come true. But maybe, if you believe as I believe, perception can become reality. Maybe all of us won't get what we want, and maybe everyone is not destined for happiness. But more of us can be happy, and as a people, we can stand together again. And you won't have to be so angry.

Darryl James is the author of "Bridging The Black Gender Gap," which is
also the basis of his lectures and seminars. James was awarded the 2004
Non-fiction Award for his book on the Los Angeles Riots at the Seventh
Annual Black History Month Book Fair and Conference in Chicago. He can
be reached at djames@TheBlackGenderGap.com
Original Post
Okay Raheem below is your article again. I cleaned it up to help me read it.


----------------------------------------------


The label "Angry Black Man" was once popularized among white racists out of fear and among Blacks out of admiration, referring to the pro-Black revolutionary man who spoke against oppression and stood defiantly against racism and injustice.

Today, another angry icon is being ignominiously popularized among Black men (and women) out of repulsion, referring to the single Black woman with an obstinate attitude who appears angry at everything in general, but at the Black man in particular:

The Angry Black Woman.

The Angry Black Woman can be identified by her attitude, her conversation and sometimes, even her body language. Sometimes it's in the twist of the neck, or a dismissive roll of the eyes during normal conversation. Sometimes it's in the sharp tongue that lashes out with shrill, unsolicited criticism or advice, which is typically baseless and negative.

The Angry Black Woman may refer to herself as a strong Black woman, or an independent woman, but may be called a bitch by men and women. This woman will refer to ALL Black men as weak, lazy and beneath her, while identifying them as the sole source of all of her woes, particularly her inability to find her desired mate. Her conversation with other women is rife with hopelessness and negativity.

The Angry Black Woman may be otherwise desirable, but is unable to move beyond past pain and fear, which sits on her shoulders as bitterness and anger, driving most good things out of her life. Holding on to that bitterness can bring dire consequences.

In her struggle for both the rights of Blacks and the rights of women, Maida S. Kemp, the former president of the National Council of Negro Women cautioned women against bitterness."Unless a woman learns not to be bitter about defeats and not to be arrogant about successes, each of them, both your success and your defeat can limit you," Kemp warned.

Bitterness has shown up in dating more than any other arena. Each of us who dates has had bad experiences, no matter how lengthy or brief. If we take those experiences personally, then they become a part of who we are and we use them to judge all others. Thus, "all men" (or from a burned out man's perspective, "all women") are screwed up.

Anger is also infectious. When someone comes at us with anger, it is easy to absorb it and become changed. I've been temporarily infected by the attacks of angry, negative people with nothing productive or positive to bring, who expect me to dialogue in a civil manner. I rebuke them and avoid further contact, leaving the bitterness in quarantine. I have literally listened to bitter women tell me horrible things about myself and after they finish, I have to ask them who they are talking about, because often, not even the situations are relevant to me--its all from their past or conjured up by their fear.

As humans, we have choices, and we don't have to be bitter. I have been hurt by Black women, but I moved on, convinced that the ones who hurt me may have been weak, but that they were not representative of ALL Black women.

I also considered my own choices, and that perhaps I was weak when dating them. The key for me is that after each of my painful experiences, I took a vacation from dating. The last vacation became a lengthy period of celibacy and healing, which kept my head and heart clear. Many otherwise decent and kind women become angry and bitter after spending too much time with men who disappoint them.

Quite honestly, if you don't see what you want in someone, you have to ask YOURSELF why you are wasting yourself on them, allowing them to taint your perspective. If you play in the mud, you can't help but get dirty. Both men and women have to learn to just wait until something good comes along, instead of trying to see something good simply because waiting doesn't feel good.

According to poet Nikki Giovanni, "most of us love from our need to love, not because we find someone deserving." In many cases, anger is simply a reaction to fear, but it can be used productively, as advised by noted author Zora Neale Hurston: "The thing to do is to grab the broom of anger and drive off the beast of fear." The voices of those who embrace anger and negativity are loud and overabundant, raging in malignant magazine articles, on low brow television shows and in circles of negative friends.

Those voices spread the propaganda that all Black men are out to hurt Black women, are beneath them and/or have no desire to marry them (A recent issue of Essence Magazine muses: "Do Black Men Still Love Us?" Yet another issue poses: "He cheated. Now What?"). Negativity, like the dark side of the force, is seductive and is a breeding ground for anger. When we hear negative things and we are already in pain, our hearts are prepped for anything that will mask the pain. Nothing masks pain the way anger does. In fact, anger feeds off of the pain and makes the host believe that there is actually no pain at all. The result of submission to negativity is a life filled with hopelessness and fear, which often shows up as anger.

There is a deep-seated pathology involved when humans begin to embrace hopelessness. That pathology has manifest itself in a masked depression showing up in a great number of unmarried, thirty-something and forty-something Black women. According to LaVerne Porter Wheatley Perry, a clinical psychologist, "hopelessness is a Black female learned attitude. Black females appear chronically depressed"”what we call low-level depression in my field. That means you ain't depressed enough to really go crazy. You're working too hard to have time to think about killing yourself..." There can be happiness at the end of the rainbow, even if the struggle to be happy is an arduous one.

But the Angry Black Woman must understand that there is no good result from anger. I submit that you take a break, take it easy and take inventory of your past disappointments, so that you do not allow them to cloud your present or future. You can use your experience to teach you what you should avoid, so that you can focus on what is good for you.

For all of my sisters who are angry at men, I have a proposal: Let's begin to talk"”men and women"”to each other and not about each other. Let's remove the resentment as well as the fear that drives us apart. Let's focus on the promise of the future and not the mistakes of the past so that we can stand together again.

Maybe these poetic hopes of mine are whimsical and maybe these silly dreams won't come true. But maybe, if you believe as I believe, perception can become reality. Maybe all of us won't get what we want, and maybe everyone is not destined for happiness. But more of us can be happy, and as a people, we can stand together again. And you won't have to be so angry.

Darryl James is the author of "Bridging The Black Gender Gap," which is
also the basis of his lectures and seminars. James was awarded the 2004
Non-fiction Award for his book on the Los Angeles Riots at the Seventh
Annual Black History Month Book Fair and Conference in Chicago.

He can be reached at djames@TheBlackGenderGap.com
This was an "interesting" read. I found it "interesting" that the author never attacked the system for putting us in a situation like we are in as African/Black people in general. How are we supposed to treat and cure our symptoms of illness if we never properly or thoroughly diagnose the cancer we suffer from as a people?

"Negativity, like the dark side of the force, is seductive and is a breeding ground for anger."

Negativity in the African/Black community is also corporate sponsored propoganda. Essense magazine and other forms of media directed towards Black people are largely dependant on their advertisers. Do we honestly think magazines that are largely dependant on the funds from the advertasements of companies that want us Black women to hate our African/Black appearance enough to put deadly chemicals on our head every six weeks(lets face it, so our hair looks more European/white in appearance), really care about our well being or even are truly trying to foster such well being in us? Roll Eyes Are we(or rather is he) truly that nieve? Headliners like this one on Essense are part of the propoganda the capitalist elite/corporate gods feed everyone, and Blacks in particular to make us 'happy' consumers while they exploit us(and I use the term 'happy' in sarcasm of course).

This is the underlying message of such an article...(and I actually read that issue of Essense preciseley to see what they were trying to "sell" with such a cover story). This headline was put under a picture of Jill Scott. A picture that just so happened to have her with streghtened hair(which I was shocked at seeing) There were no real articles adressing the problem. Just a miriad of articles talking about all different male/female issues such as "undercover brothers"(gay Black men living double lives)...and a lot of other things...None of the articles actually had the title of "Do Black men still want us?" So I found it odd that was the caption on the cover...

But I did see a whole bunch of advertisements in between for Chemical hair streighteners, hair dyes, and fade cream, and hair growth products...With the combination of a misapplied title cover story that didn't really exist in the issue, a straight haired Jill Scott, and the advertsements for African apearance altering products...Call me paranoid, but the message I got form Essenses corporate sponsors was...

"If you use these things to make yourself look less African/Black then maybe African/Black men will want you! Please feel bad enough about yourself to think changing your appearance to one that better fits the European standard of beauty(Like Jill did on our cover) will actually lead to changes in the personal, social, political, and economic conditions of your people! We know these conditions are largely fostered by the very system you live under, but ignore that and buy, buy, buy...."

I understand and agree that we must take responsiblity for our own personal behavior towards each other...But for the author of this article to not even "mention", let alone analyze the society that fosters such conditions in the first place, this racist, classist, and sexist society, that Black women and men are oppressed and exploited under, makes me wonder if he really "gets it"...
quote:
Originally posted by henry38:
Surely Raheem you could have cleaned the article up a little by putting paragraphs before posting it. As it is it's simply impossible to read. Anyway I would try to read it even though I was struggling at the first attempt.


thanks man, i posted it and then ran for an early lunch Smile
What I don't understand is why don't black men tell the truth and shame the devil. Why do we always want to blame our women for everything that is wrong with us.

The simple truth is when a man has no money the thought of marriage is extremely scaring. We have all been there. Come on how many of us would have the courage to ask a woman out if we have no money in our pocket. A lot of black men are unemployed and the resulting poverty brings with it low self esteem as well as destroys any man's moral and masculinity period.

I don't believe in "angry black women" or any other stereotype garbage we dish out to hide our short comings. The fact is many black men are not in a position financially to do the right thing by our women so we stay away from them. That is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth
quote:
Originally posted by henry38:
What I don't understand is why don't black men tell the truth and shame the devil. Why do we always want to blame our women for everything that is wrong with us.

The simple truth is when a man has no money the thought of marriage is extremely scaring. We have all been there. Come on how many of us would have the courage to ask a woman out if we have no money in our pocket. A lot of black men are unemployed and the resulting poverty brings with it low self esteem as well as destroys any man's moral and masculinity period.

I don't believe in "angry black women" or any other stereotype garbage we dish out to hide our short comings. The fact is many black men are not in a position financially to do the right thing by our women so we stay away from them. That is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth
maybe London is different. I've met numerous blk women in America exactly like the ones he described. Attitiude so harsh, you can't even meet them or even say hello without some negativity bitch slapping you back. I think all and all it goes both ways. black men and black women need to re-think what they thought about the other side.
quote:
Originally posted by henry38:
I am a bit puzzled, the African-American women I have met are so very warm and friendly. I find it difficult to imagine you are describing the same kind of women I have met Confused


i understand your point, but everyone is different. Many blk women are just like the ones the writer spoke about, many are nothing like that. I agree with the author that the 'foul attitude' are the most memorable. The noisy wheel gets the oil.
I like James Wesley Chester's by-line "You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are." Also, Brother Faheem says it best with his by-line, "One of the greatest Problems facing the Black man and woman's drive towards self determination is our allowing others to equally participate and exercise power, in our family debates."

If we accept the hype that Black women are angry and Black men are not worth marrying, who wins? We don't. Is there a conspiracy to keep the Black man and Black woman from forming a bond? I say YES!! And the media plays a large part in the conspiracy. The media feeds the Black woman such headlines as "'Forget Mr. Right! Create Your Own Wealth" or "I can and will live life without a man" in OUR Essence Magazine. That's not the message the media is sending to white women about their men. Cosmos headlines are "Find your Sexual Soul Mate", "Date like A Pro", "Build That Relationship" and "Find Him, Marry Him!" What a difference in HYPE. So, are we to believe that Black women should be single, stay single and live single lives WITHOUT Black men? NO, we should be up-lifting each other at every opportunity. NOT writing slanderous articles or establishing seminars and workshops in which we are depicted in the worst light.

We have never been HOPELESS folks. We have hope if we don't have anything else to cling to. Not to come off as an "ANGRY Black Woman" but, I despise articles that depict Black women as angry and hateful because it makes us appear UGLY. We are BEAUTIFUL!! By whose ruler are we(Black women) being measured or compared to?

We are what we say we are, BEAUTIFUL!
quote:
Originally posted by Diamond:
I like James Wesley Chester's by-line "You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are." Also, Brother Faheem says it best with his by-line, "One of the greatest Problems facing the Black man and woman's drive towards self determination is our allowing others to equally participate and exercise power, in our family debates."

If we accept the hype that Black women are angry and Black men are not worth marrying, who wins? We don't. Is there a conspiracy to keep the Black man and Black woman from forming a bond? I say YES!! And the media plays a large part in the conspiracy. The media feeds the Black woman such headlines as "'Forget Mr. Right! Create Your Own Wealth" or "I can and will live life without a man" in OUR Essence Magazine. That's not the message the media is sending to white women about their men. Cosmos headlines are "Find your Sexual Soul Mate", "Date like A Pro", "Build That Relationship" and "Find Him, Marry Him!" What a difference in HYPE. So, are we to believe that Black women should be single, stay single and live single lives WITHOUT Black men? NO, we should be up-lifting each other at every opportunity. NOT writing slanderous articles or establishing seminars and workshops in which we are depicted in the worst light.

We have never been HOPELESS folks. We have hope if we don't have anything else to cling to. Not to come off as an "ANGRY Black Woman" but, I despise articles that depict Black women as angry and hateful because it makes us appear UGLY. We are BEAUTIFUL!! By whose ruler are we(Black women) being measured or compared to?

We are what we say we are, BEAUTIFUL!


Diamond,

You brought up some extremely good points! Well said! I agree! thumbsup
quote:
Originally posted by Diamond:
I like James Wesley Chester's by-line "You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are." Also, Brother Faheem says it best with his by-line, "One of the greatest Problems facing the Black man and woman's drive towards self determination is our allowing others to equally participate and exercise power, in our family debates."

If we accept the hype that Black women are angry and Black men are not worth marrying, who wins? We don't. Is there a conspiracy to keep the Black man and Black woman from forming a bond? I say YES!! And the media plays a large part in the conspiracy. The media feeds the Black woman such headlines as "'Forget Mr. Right! Create Your Own Wealth" or "I can and will live life without a man" in OUR Essence Magazine. That's not the message the media is sending to white women about their men. Cosmos headlines are "Find your Sexual Soul Mate", "Date like A Pro", "Build That Relationship" and "Find Him, Marry Him!" What a difference in HYPE. So, are we to believe that Black women should be single, stay single and live single lives WITHOUT Black men? NO, we should be up-lifting each other at every opportunity. NOT writing slanderous articles or establishing seminars and workshops in which we are depicted in the worst light.

We have never been HOPELESS folks. We have hope if we don't have anything else to cling to. Not to come off as an "ANGRY Black Woman" but, I despise articles that depict Black women as angry and hateful because it makes us appear UGLY. We are BEAUTIFUL!! By whose ruler are we(Black women) being measured or compared to?

We are what we say we are, BEAUTIFUL!

well said!!
quote:
Originally posted by Diamond:
...We have never been HOPELESS folks. We have hope if we don't have anything else to cling to. Not to come off as an "ANGRY Black Woman" but, I despise articles that depict Black women as angry and hateful because it makes us appear UGLY. We are BEAUTIFUL!! By whose ruler are we(Black women) being measured or compared to?

We are what we say we are, BEAUTIFUL!


Well said! Thank you for your analysis.

Essence mag. used to have a lot of worthwhile articles and topics - that was before Susan L. Taylor stepped down as editor. It has been reduced to what you see now, a gossip rag. (I have since cancelled my long-time subscription) If you feel as I do you should write or email them and let them know what you think.
quote:
Originally posted by AudioGuy:
quote:
Originally posted by Diamond:
...We have never been HOPELESS folks. We have hope if we don't have anything else to cling to. Not to come off as an "ANGRY Black Woman" but, I despise articles that depict Black women as angry and hateful because it makes us appear UGLY. We are BEAUTIFUL!! By whose ruler are we(Black women) being measured or compared to?

We are what we say we are, BEAUTIFUL!


Well said! Thank you for your analysis.

Essence mag. _used_ to have a lot of worthwhile articles and topics - that was _before_ Susan L. Taylor stepped down as editor. It has been reduced to what you see now, a gossip rag. (I have since cancelled my long-time subscription) If you feel as I do you should write or email them and let them know what you think.


subscriptions and readership are up for those type of magazines...i guess they have dropped to tabloid, yellow journalism level. too bad, they were good resources for information
Your in luck RadioRaheem- i have some advice to help you out!

Keep your hatrade towards Black women to yourself!!!

You are able to realize that the stereotypes about black men are stereotypes used to degrade black men. Yet you are unable to realize that the stereotypes of black women are stereotypes. You are just fostering racism. Your the white mans slave.

The mammy, jezebel, welfare queen,and sapphire stereotypes if anything is what is making black women "angry"

Here is some other advice:

stop watching Ricky Lake, The Jerry Springer show and all the media which has led you to believe all or most black women are the quintessence of all evil.

If there is any truth in what you have been trying to preach on Africanamerica.org- it is the following:

Black women do not realize that white women and all other women are cheated on and betrayed by the opposite sex as well.

Black women need to respect themselves so that no one takes advantage of them.
quote:
Originally posted by Sweetwuzzy:
Your in luck RadioRaheem- i have some advice to help you out!

Keep your hatrade towards Black women to yourself!!!

You are able to realize that the stereotypes about black men are stereotypes used to degrade black men. Yet you are unable to realize that the stereotypes of black women are stereotypes. You are just fostering racism. Your the white mans slave.

The mammy, jezebel, welfare queen,and sapphire stereotypes if anything is what is making black women "angry"

Here is some other advice:

stop watching Ricky Lake, The Jerry Springer show and all the media which has led you to believe all or most black women are the quintessence of all evil.

If there is any truth in what you have been trying to preach on Africanamerica.org- it is the following:

Black women do not realize that white women and all other women are cheated on and betrayed by the opposite sex as well.

Black women need to respect themselves so that no one takes advantage of them.


firstly, I don't watch talk shows, hardly even watch television, except the news, C-span, political topic shows and a few comedy shows. Talk shows, of the types you listed, are for those that have too much time on their hands...you know what they say about idle hands Smile

Secondly, 'I love, respect, and protect the black woman'. That's my new mantra for the new year. I've learned that blk women can't take 'opinions' other than of full praise and deep devotion. I remember a few topics on here that quickly became 'clashes' between myself and a few female board members. Apparently, what I was speaking on what of great interest to them [they opened the topic, things that they had hoped men would talk about, i.e. relationships, what attracts them, what they were looking for, family issues, marriage, etc, yet in their disagreement with me, they had no facts to backup what they were saying. Many months later, I am still waiting for some one to post the benefits of dating/marrying a single mom and/or an explanation to why a white man can love and marry a blk woman, yet a blk man isn't allowed to love anything but a blk woman?? They seemed to be in unison against my logical thoughts, I guess that's proves the old adage, 'small minds think alike' Smile

More to your points expressed above, this is a messageboard and this is the dating/relationship area. I posted an article written by an author who focuses on blk loving relationships, from a blk male point of view. He has written for Essence, Ebony, and BET. He expresses himself in a clearly and direct way that I can respect. Others seem to have shown respect for what he has said, why not you?? This article was posted for the purposes of discussion and analysis. As for your statement'keep your hatrade towards Black women to yourself!!!'..why?? If blk women express themselves with dissatisfication with blk males, they seem to get cheers from other blk women as if what was expressed was a 'slam dunk' truth. Many more issues of Essence and Ebony fly off the shelves, soldout movie and theater seats to Gospel comedy plays [where are all the good man?? and Oh Lord, why don't my fifth babyfather want to marry me??] and Oprah's viewership goes up even higher on 'sweeps week'. "You go girl" is their common battle cry. Yet, when blk males do the same, he seem to receive hate for just expressing himself. Am I to believe that before reading my posts, you though blk women were 'flawless' and 'blameless'?? only victims??

Here's some advice to you[it's free, no charge to you!!!]....if you want to debate, cool...let's debate!!!...this is a messageboard and that's it's purpose. Post facts, like I have done and am commited to, then await my reply. Back and forth, call and response. That's the most fair, intelligent, and organized way of having a discussion. I must admit however, I have many, many years of debating team experience and have learned the 'key ways' of winning damn near every argument Smile ..but you can try to debate me. However,if all you got are 'personal' attacks or name calling...ask yourself...how can you give a 'personal' attack to someone you have never met and simple do not know??

Battle the message, not messager.

The first part of a 'personal attack' assumes you know someone 'personally'. We have never met, so keep my name out your mouth and your mind on your task Smile "Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people" - Eleanor Roosevelt Smile

"If there is any truth in what you have been trying to preach on Africanamerica.org- it is the following:"...

-> what I have posted here, and will continue to post here, is my opinion, backed heavily by fact. When I state said opinion and you disagree, that's fine, but read my backed up truth and try to understand my connection to that fact, be it a stat or an article, like I posted here. You can post your own conclusion to that fact or article, then we can just disagree on the 'conclusion'. I feel that the true feeling of the other side are based almost solely on emotion and very little fact. To my credit, i have asked repeatly for women here to post facts to support their opinion, but I usually get negativity or 'new names', which usually start and end in curse words Smile These [discussion] are merely examples the classic conflict of a man's logical mind vs. the woman's emotion one. From this board, I can remember several of these 'discussions' in which women seem to work from the mindset that blk women are 'perfect', all other women, by definiation, must be flawed & foolish and, like the article speaks on above, that everything is the blk man's fault, i.e. a blk woman's singleness, divorce rates, fatherless child rearing, hopelessness, depression, weight gain, attitude, etc.

My love advice to the blk woman is simple, it's the same simple advice my college football coach told us at just about every halftime, 'Plan your work, Work your plan.' If the plan is to be married, work towards that. This means 'put a jersey on' and 'get into the game'. it also means avoid harmful situations that could cost you your chance at marriage. Be active and meet men. No harm in saying hello. If there really is a 'man shortage', you better get your while supplies last!!! LOL!!! Like I said before, 'sit and wait' aint working, it aint work before, and it aint working now!!! Be honest with yourself, look in a mirror...start the blame with that person and move on from there. Do this while you still can, your 'dating' desirability among men goes down over time. Smile

Love, respect, and protect the blk woman!!1 upfro
Read all your post about black women. You are the first one to bring up that black women are materalistic, or mean. Remember when you started a post saying something like:"if you are gonna be with a black girl, make sure shes the best" What does that mean? It seems as if you are saying black women are a burden- and some how black men should not have to deal with them.

As far as the watching Jerry springer and Rikki Lake- my point is that you are using negative images of black women against them. I did not literally mean you watch those shows.

Dont get it twisted. I do not support any of the black women who are saying "i need to get myself a white man!!" Neither do i support it when they stereotype black men in general.Read your posts - they speak for themselves.

When you talk about the amount of black women who have children out-of-wedlock, you forget to mention the the men who desert them. It does not matter if the women was a slut- theres no excuse for the child not to have two parents.The women is also at fault for not using protection and not making sure the child has the best environment and mom to raise them.I view your point-of-view on this one more sexist than racism towards black women.

"This article was posted for the purposes of discussion and analysis. As for your statement'keep your hatrade towards Black women to yourself!!!'..why?? If blk women express themselves with dissatisfication with blk males, they seem to get cheers from other blk women as if what was expressed was a 'slam dunk' truth."

Are you admitting that you have hatrade towards black women? I am not suppressing your views. Theres a diffrence with dissastisfication and hatrade. Men and women of all races have dissatisfication with each other. This is not hatrade.

You know how you feel about black women- and everyone by reading anything you have written can see that. I never said black women are flawless- but you have shown through your comments that black men are.
I don't mean to be off topic, but I do have some good news...I searched the Yahoo TV schedule last week and I just read online that the Ricki Lake show is no longer on the air. After 11 seasons, the producers cancelled the show...albeit 11 years too late, but it's finally off the air.
Well, what i see here is a woman SweetWuzzy, yet passionate, speaking from an emotional perspective. And a man RadioRaheem, yet passionate, speaking from an objective perspective.

i'm not implying that hes write and she's wrong, just that the presentation of their feelings show their origin of influence. i would expect any self-respecting woman to vehemently defend against his claims. After all it is a pretty blistering indictment. The author has some good points. And while he appears to be somewhat over the top, your response does not categorically refute anything specific that he's saying. you just accuse him of being a 'hater of black women'; an attempt to generalize in one sentence what he has laid out in many.

my opion about women? Well, i have a personal one, but i realize that it's not really valid as I haven't obtained a samply large enough to be representative of the entire black american populous. But from my own experiences, I can say there are many black women that do and do not embody his description. I simply wasn't that big of a player to know to what extent.


nonetheless, it's good to witness a passionate debate.
Okay well, I'll put myself out there as an individual who happens to be both black and female. Yesterday one of my college professors decided to have individual meetings with each student in his class to give of us a mid-term review of each student's standing in his class so far. The class is Intro to Jazz (a dance course). During his brief review of me he spent most of the time offering a personal issue (my word not his) he had with me. He said that I was too serious and that he needed me to smile more. He was troubled by the fact that I didn't speak much or in his opinion interact with the rest of my classmates more. Of course as a sista I could've cussed his butt out but refrained from doing so b/c I was sleep deprived. Now of course I went into excuse-mode immediately (silently though). First it's a fact that half of my fellow classmates enrolled into the course together-hence they know each other. Second, I'm the only black person in the class; half of the class is white and a third is Asian if you don't count the professor (he's Asian himself).

I'm trying to use dance as another creative outlet and a way to break out of my shell and his revelation did at first make me want to give up. I was pissed and was even wondering if he called out the three Asian women in our class who are just as silent as me when they're not talking to each other. But I've now decided to use his criticism constructively. I am too fearful which causes me close up faster then a Venus's flytrap. My whole disposition is attributable to my childhood upbringing. And I think that's where it goes back to for most black women w/ "attitudes." Btw my professor made sure fearfully to clarify to me that he didn't think I had an "attitude" problem. He probably knew that that would be culturally insensitive and might get him cussed out.

Anyway most black women grew up with part-time or no-time fathers and that includes myself as well. My father was and still is to a certain extent verbally and physically abusive. I don't talk unless spoken to. I am always on the defense b/c I feel like I will get hurt. I've never been in a relationship (unless you count my only one during the 6th grade) b/c I don't want to be w/ a man like my father and b/c I don't want to get hurt. If 70% of black children are born out-of-wedlock then there are a lot of black girls out there who are pissed for good reason. They've been hurt by black men since birth. Little girls need there daddies too and if he's not there or if he's not doing a good job while there it does affect them and the rest of society. I do actively make it an ongoing challenge to say hi to every black man I see. I make eye-contact, smile and respond to there greetings or greet them. I'm not perfect but I'm trying. It's hard b/c I want to protect myself first. But I want to be happy and that includes not isolating myself completely from the world. I do hold a special place in my heart for black men-good, bad, or indifferent.
I have to congratulate DBlack for his insight. "Well, what I see here is a woman SweetWuzzy, yet passionate, speaking from an emotional perspective. And a man RadioRaheem, yet passionate, speaking from an objective perspective. I'm not implying that he's right and she's wrong, just that the presentation of their feelings show their origin of influence"
I do describe myself as a strong and independent Black woman, and I do not believe that this is a synonym for being angry. It is important to separate the two. I have to be a strong black woman because, like Zora Neale Hurston has written, black women are the mules of the world. To be weak is not an option. I was raised in a family where the women didn't have time to be weak; they had to raise the family because, unfortunately, the men didn't. I was actually raised with the belief that to be emotional is to be weak. The reason? There is no sense in being angry over spilled milk when your man leaves you for your best friend because at the end of the day you need to take care of the child or children you and him have created. Moreover, I have to be independent because I grew up with few resources and if I wanted something I had to go out and work for it. I have been working since the age of 13. I am now 23 and have been blessed with a graduate school fellowship that pays for me to go to school and gives me money just for going to school, the catch is I can't work at the same time. Which work is so ingrained in me, half of the time I don't know what to do with myself when I have spare time. Have fun you say? I did not know what fun was throughout my high school and undergrad career because I had to work in order to pay bills, eat and cloth myself. Not that my mom and my step dad (yes, I did have positive black male role models, my step dad married my mom even though she had 3 children from a previous relationship) could not do it, we just had a big family. My parents, especially my mom, scarified things they needed so that we could have everything we needed and wanted. So, I learned, at a young age, that to help reduce the financial burdens my parents had I needed to work, so I did.
Not to say that there wasn't times where I could have been classified as an angry black woman. I did go through a period where I was angry. I was angry at the fact that my biological father left my mother before I was born and that also the majority of the children I went to school with and lived around had no fathers in their lives. I was angry to hide my hurt. I was hurt because I thought that I was not worthy of being loved by black men because the man who was suppose to show me that I was worthy of being loved walked out on my mom before I was born. It didn't help that the majority of my peers had absentee fathers too. I feel that Black women will stop being angry when Black men step up to the plate and be the men they need to be. Now, the question is why are some black men not doing this? I believe it is not because they are weak or they are not happy with black women, I believe it is because of the social constraints that was put on the black man during and after slavery. This country is based on the idea that to be a man you need to support and protect your family. During slavery times it didn't matter if you had a wife and kids you were sold to the highest bidder. Slavery had no interest in keeping the black family together. After slavery, it was hard for black men to get jobs (I would say it is true now a days, depending on your SES). Once we became free from our slave status, there were more job opportunities for black woman than black men. Furthermore, in order for white men to feel powerful they had to suppress black men. It was true then and I believe it is true to this day. Nas put it beautifully in his song "If I Ruled the World", when he said that welfare supporters are more conscious of the way we raise our daughters. Thus, it as been mainly up to the Black women to be strong and pick up where Black men have not been able to which understandably can cause stress and anger in black women. It is up to us as Black women to be aware in how our society views black men and help support them without sacrificing ourselves (of course this is true for black men too!)
quote:
Maybe all of us won't get what we want, and maybe everyone is not destined for happiness. But more of us can be happy, and as a people, we can stand together again. And you won't have to be so angry.



Whenever I read articles and topics like these, which quite frankly, are very old and tired, I have to ask myself, against what standard are African American women being measured? If you notice that African American women have certain commonalities in their personality, character, and communicative styles, shouldn't these qualities be attributed to cultural differences rather than inherited "social problems?" Its just as unfair to characterize black women as being "angry" as it is to characterize black men as "violent." So why do we continute to perpetuate these societal stereotypes?

From the onset, people need to understand that AFRICAN AMERICAN WOMEAN ARE NOT WHITE WOMEN. We are different, we have a different historical expreriences, different backgrounds, different traditions, etc. Most importantly to mention, perhaps black men would have better relationships with black women if they avoided comparing us to women that we are not.

For example, I was recently approached by a new teacher's aide in the school where I work. This white woman approaches me with the hand of one of my Kindagarten students and says, "Amanda wanted to know if she could use the bathroom, but she was 'too afraid' to ask you." Perplexed, I did not understand what she meant. My students, including Amanda, are very forward about what they need and when they need it.

Then suddenly, I realized that this person was in fact communicating her feelings of being intimidated through the child. The reason is because often times a black woman's confidence, loud and stern voice, and at times, large physical bodies can be intimidating to some people, especially to people who are the complete opposite (e.g. docile, meek, timid, frail, and shy). But sometimes your first impression of someone is wrong and your judgement of that person also wrong.

The new teacher's aide observations of me in the classroom were probably negative and she subsequently decided that I was yet another "Angry Black Woman" who is "scary," "mean" and "unapproachable." Little does she know, that I am not like that at all. That is why its a good rule of thumb to get to know people before you make judgements about them.
"Its just as unfair to characterize black women as being "angry" as it is to characterize black men as "violent." So why do we continute to perpetuate these societal stereotypes?"

I could not agree anymore.Precisely!!!

"From the onset, people need to understand that AFRICAN AMERICAN WOMEAN ARE NOT WHITE WOMEN. We are different, we have a different historical expreriences, different backgrounds, different traditions, etc. Most importantly to mention, perhaps black men would have better relationships with black women if they avoided comparing us to women that we are not."

Yes!!!But more importantly, we need to stop stereotyping. Not all African American or black women are the same. I think people do not want to take the time to see the diversity within black women.This more than anything is what might make "black women angry", the same way stereotypes about black men have done.
quote:
I think people do not want to take the time to see the diversity within black women.This more than anything is what might make "black women angry", the same way stereotypes about black men have done.


Indeed, which brings up another side to this issue which I have purposely held off discussing until now. The writer of this article, along with many other concerned black men, tend to view black woman's numerous complaints about the difficulties they are experiencing in their relationships with black men in isolation from one another. In other words, they fail to acknowledge, or conveniently choose to ignore, that not one woman has a complaint, but many woman, across the country, have very similar complaints about the same man. What does that tell us? It tells us that the complaints black woman are making cannot all be attributed to mistakes that they are making. As another poster mentioned, many of the problems that black men and women have in regards to relationships stem from black men being economically marginalized out of mainstream society. A man simply cannot support a wife and family, or even himself for that matter without money. And if you have the misfortune of being born into a family this seems to be trapped inside a cycle of transgenerational poverty, falling in love and securing a future for a family is the last thing on your mind. So you become unproductive, irresponsible and develop a disdain for committing to anything that requires responsibility. Its no wonder then, that black women experience difficulty maintaining relationships with black men.

Recommendations:

1.Work to remove yourselves and your children out of environments that are destructive to positive family development.

2. Avoid recreational relationships that are based soley on self-indulgence and immediate gratification. (This leads to unplanned pregnancies, sexually transmitted disease that could be fatal, and the further weakening of black communities, including broken homes).

3. When you do get married, stay married. Research shows that married couples who stay together are more capable of securing wealth for themselves and for future generations. Partner-switching will eventually take a toll on your wallet, especially if you have children with many different women (child support payments).

4. Do not have more than two children. The more children you have, the more money you will need to set aside to secure the child's college education. Some African American parents have an unlimited amount of children without ever seriously thinking about the child's future in terms of how they plan to educate them. Being a parent involves alot more than just having a baby. You have to raise each child, give each child serious care and attention and health care, and mold each child into a self-respecting, confident, intelligent, and contributing adult. Unless you are insanely wealthy, can two people financially support lots of children? And equally important, is it fair to put that much burden on one person at home (that is, if someone is to stay at home to raise the children).
quote:
Originally posted by DBlack:
Well, what i see here is a woman SweetWuzzy, yet passionate, speaking from an emotional perspective. And a man RadioRaheem, yet passionate, speaking from an objective perspective.

i'm not implying that hes write and she's wrong, just that the presentation of their feelings show their origin of influence. i would expect any self-respecting woman to vehemently defend against his claims. After all it is a pretty blistering indictment. The author has some good points. And while he appears to be somewhat over the top, your response does not categorically refute anything specific that he's saying. you just accuse him of being a 'hater of black women'; an attempt to generalize in one sentence what he has laid out in many.

my opion about women? Well, i have a personal one, but i realize that it's not really valid as I haven't obtained a samply large enough to be representative of the entire black american populous. But from my own experiences, I can say there are many black women that do and do not embody his description. I simply wasn't that big of a player to know to what extent.


nonetheless, it's good to witness a passionate debate.
thanks for adding insight and helping clear up the background of my post. Like I said before, I look at topics here emotionlessly. I just want to speak on the facts, not my feelings on the facts. Some of the other posters on here may wish to take this ideas personally...that's fine. I'm just seeking the reasons behind the reality. The truth is very important to me. Thanks again

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