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Here are the ten things you can not say in America according to Larry Elder. Lets talk about it.

1. Blacks are more racist than whites
2. White condescension is as bad as black racism
3. The media bias--it's real, it's widespread, it's destructive
4. The glass ceiling--full of holes
5. America's greatest problem: not crime, racism or bad schools--it's illegitimacy
6. There is no health-care crisis
7. America's welfare state: the tyranny of the status quo
8. Republicans vs. Democrats--maybe a dime's worth of difference
9. The war against drugs is Vietnam II: we're losing this one, too
10. Gun control advocates--good guys with blood on their hands
-------------------------
There are Negroes who will never fight for freedom. There are Negroes who will seek profit for themselves from the struggle. There are even some Negroes who will cooperate with the oppressors. The hammer blows of discrimination, poverty, and segregation must warp and corrupt some. No one can pretend that because a people may be oppressed, every individual member is virtuous and worthy. Martin Luther King

More to come later! Your Brother Faheem
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Negroes like Larry Elder thrive on sensationalism and the illusion of "acceptance" from whites. He does not believe half of that bullschit he espouses himself....he grew up in an urban area that was the direct result of historically racist policy that is adverse to blacks.....I mean think about it, he was too damn sorry to go out and make a real living.....so he became a profitable court-jester/buffoon type of guy....not knowledgeble at all......just talkative.....so i find those uncle tom types very insignificant...just like the whites who never solicit their opinions unless it will allow them to talk negative about blacks......
quote:
Originally posted by toussaint:
I think it'd be fair to at least browse through elaborations of his points before jumping to conclusions.


Sorry, Toussaint. I am familiar enough with the idiotic ravings of this worthless idiot to understand that his commentary -- all of it -- is beneath the dignity of analysis. Black conservatives need to distance themselves from this goofy lightweight if they plan on being taken seriously be people who aren't blind right wing ideologues.
Elders is right on. Jim phrased it correctly with 'hot button phrases'. These are things that are BANNED from public discourse, especially within our community. You will virtually never hear any of those things uttered in public venues, less the speaker be attacked. Quite true.

Don't believe me? Try pointing out that the number one problem in our community today is the disgustingly unbelievable illegitimacy rate , which practically guarantees lives of poverty and destruction for these children overwhelmingly, all proved and backed by simply examining the lives of such children as your evidence, and comparing that with stable two parent household children. And yet you'll be hollared out of town and called a 'tom' just for mentioning it. Its like our 'dirty little secret' or something. There is no disputing this, we KNOW this is the case.
quote:
Originally posted by DeltaJ:
Elders is right on. Jim phrased it correctly with 'hot button phrases'. These are things that are BANNED from public discourse, especially within our community. You will virtually never hear any of those things uttered in public venues, less the speaker be attacked. Quite true.

Don't believe me? Try pointing out that the number one problem in our community today is the disgustingly unbelievable illegitimacy rate , which practically guarantees lives of poverty and destruction for these children overwhelmingly, all proved and backed by simply examining the lives of such children as your evidence, and comparing that with stable two parent household children. And yet you'll be hollared out of town and called a 'tom' just for mentioning it. Its like our 'dirty little secret' or something. There is no disputing this, we KNOW this is the case.


Says who? One thing that really burns me up is that we get these statements about what happens in black communities from people who don't even live among them. When was the last time either DeltaJ or Larry Elder walked into a barber shop in a black neighborhood and had a conversation? Or the corner store or deli? Or, for that matter, a friend's house?

Leave statements about what blacks talk about to those of us who live in black neighbrhoods and would know. Not that any of that matters, though, since Larry Elder specifically referenced these things as being off-limits "IN AMERICA." In other words, he's trying to attack the "liberal establishment," as if there is such a thing, not blacks (this time, anyway).
Its like our 'dirty little secret' or something. There is no disputing this, we KNOW this is the case. --- DeltaJ

Since we are going to get into this, why not put it on the table? Whether it be cause, or consequence a major debilitating part of our communities is drugs. In my neck of the woods, it isn't even mentioned when community-based groups get together to talk about ills. I sat in two such meetings a year ago where 40-plus items-of-concern were listed. Unbelievably, drugs was not on the list.

I didn't think of it at the time either. It wasn't until afterward I realized what can only be described as "denial behavior."

I believe most of the things holding us down, regardless of cause, can be fixed by us. AND THEY ARE THINGS OVER WHICH WE HAVE ABSOLUTE CONTROL. None of them are easy.

But we have control.

Personally, I would like to see us begin with reestablishing our ancestral nationality. To me, that is baseline to the success of the others.


PEACE

Jim Chester
House niggers are the monkey on the backs of African Americans. They are no more that social and cosmic leeches that survive and thrive only based on how much blood they can suck from other Blacks in this world.
______________________________________
Slight diversion:
(Since I love science fiction)

Senario:

Superior beings land on earth, prove to Black people that there is another planet we could go to where we can live in peace and harmony without any "isms"--just pack up and leave all of the violence, isms, injustice of this world,
Do we take the House Nigger? Or do we leave them here to with/to their own vices? Smile
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Says who? One thing that really burns me up is that we get these statements about what happens in black communities from people who don't even live among them. When was the last time either DeltaJ or Larry Elder walked into a barber shop in a black neighborhood and had a conversation? Or the corner store or deli? Or, for that matter, a friend's house?


That's an interesting assumption, that these people- whom you only know from posts, articles etc.- just don't talk to black people Roll Eyes Larry Elder is from South Central LA for goodness sake, yet, because he doesn't have a "black" opinion on issues, we can conclude that he doesn't talk to black people. What a joke.

I hear the same kind of nonsense regarding Thomas Sowell as well. People have the nerve to say that someone who grew up in poverty in a black neighborhood- in the 1940s mind you, meaning that his situation socially and economically was much worse than anyone on this forum- is "white" by default based on his opinions. Roll Eyes Or he isn't "qualified" to talk about issues facing blacks. Unbelievable.

Besides, such attempts to disqualify a person's arguments using such tactics are weak when one is trying to prove a point.

It's just not convincing.
Apparently, Larry Elder is in fact saying these things. And probably will continue to say them.
Here are my litte comments about his comments.

1. Blacks are more racist than whites
-As if we can systematically deny whites anything. This is not true. We are angry, not racist. With good reason. Mr. Elder should know the difference.
2. White condescension is as bad as black racism
-Is this a joke?! Then what can white racism be compared to? Again another ill thought out statement.
3. The media bias--it's real, it's widespread, it's destructive
-This is definitely a parrot statement from the white Republican Conservatives. I've heard this so many times from white conservatives. Easily dismissable.
4. The glass ceiling--full of holes
-Of couse by the ones who are carrying up glass cutters and those things are heavy!
5. America's greatest problem: not crime, racism or bad schools--it's illegitimacy
-I disagree. The biggest problem in America is disrespect for other people.
6. There is no health-care crisis
-With all of the infant mortality rates and rates of disease among poor people regardless of their race, that is at least worth researching further before he makes another statement regarding healthcare.
7. America's welfare state: the tyranny of the status quo
The government doesn't mind giving tax breaks to big corporations who have moved their jobs to Mexico or wherever else they can pay workers less than $1 an hour. Yes, that is the tyranny of the status quo. -
8. Republicans vs. Democrats--maybe a dime's worth of difference
-OMG! I agree with this, but Mr. Elder is copying this from Malcolm X. Could he get some original material here.
9. The war against drugs is Vietnam II: we're losing this one, too
-Yes, and it's been the fuel in the fire of the Industrial Prison Complex. Which goes back to that Corporate Welfare thing. All communities of color are being seriously affected in the U.S., South America and the Near East.
10. Gun control advocates--good guys with blood on their hands
-They could do what Texas did and allow you to own a gun and not have to have a concealment permit. Crime would go down dramatically initially, however it would rise and there wouldn't be much difference than before. I've seen it happen.
quote:
Originally posted by toussaint:
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Says who? One thing that really burns me up is that we get these statements about what happens in black communities from people who don't even live among them. When was the last time either DeltaJ or Larry Elder walked into a barber shop in a black neighborhood and had a conversation? Or the corner store or deli? Or, for that matter, a friend's house?


That's an interesting assumption, that these people- whom you only know from posts, articles etc.- just don't talk to black people Roll Eyes Larry Elder is from South Central LA for goodness sake, yet, because he doesn't have a "black" opinion on issues, we can conclude that he doesn't talk to black people. What a joke.

I hear the same kind of nonsense regarding Thomas Sowell as well. People have the nerve to say that someone who grew up in poverty in a black neighborhood- in the 1940s mind you, meaning that his situation socially and economically was much worse than anyone on this forum- is "white" by default based on his opinions. Roll Eyes Or he isn't "qualified" to talk about issues facing blacks. Unbelievable.

Besides, such attempts to disqualify a person's arguments using such tactics are weak when one is trying to prove a point.

It's just not convincing.


How can someone who actually respects Larry Elder criticize an argument as "not convincing?" I would think that this would be your benchmark for earning praise.

And, like many on these boards, you misconstrue my point. First, I never said these people weren't originally from black neighborhoods. I said they probably don't LIVE AND INTERACT WITH THEM TODAY, IN THE PRESENT. They comment on how blacks think, without knowing. Second, the fact that DeltaJ & Larry Elder don't have a "black" opinion on issues (whatever that is) is not the reason why I doubt they live among black people. The reason I doubt they live among black people, as should be clear from my post, is the fact that they seem to think that black people don't bring up these "10 things," or that you can't bring them up without facing some collective wrath.

If they lived in black neighborhoods, participated in conversations with real black people in the real world OF black people, they would routinely face examples that debunk this stupid opinion about how black people think and behave.

Of course, note that I didn't say their VIEWS would change; they'd see the examples, but still hold onto their beliefs, because they wouldn't want to change the level of disdain they have for their own people.
Larry because he makes a living from it, and DeltaJ, probably because it makes him feel good.
So, Elder's point is vindicated here!

This is actually getting funny. Have a look at the majority of the responses here, and then take a look at what faheem's article is all about, the "10 things you cannot say in america".

By these responses and fear of what Elders is saying, you are demonstrating PROOF that elder's is correct to say these things cannot be said. yssys even went so far as to explain WHY each of the ten should be censored!

Of course, she and others wholly missed Elder's point here. He's not 'debating' the relative merits of any of those things, these may or may not be things he 'already' believes. But what he is saying is that these are 10 things that 'cannot' be said, and look at the hostility and resentment that is generated by his merely listing these 10 things! He's obviously right about that.

So, this topic is PROVING Elders own point. Most of the responses are vindication of his point that we are not permitted to think, utter, or believe any of those ten things, and especially we cannot openly say those things and expect not to be attacked and disrespected. No attempt to discuss these things was even on anyone's mind, it was strictly deny, refute, or attack. Am I wrong?

Someone ask yssys if her disrespect for the Bcons, as an example, is inclusive in her own answer to the 'America's greatest problem' statement. I'll bet that her disrespect she will somehow 'justify' wholeheartedly, just wait and see.
For my little narrow-minded presumptuous prone friend vox.

I grew up in a housing project in North Philadelphia. Attended an all black high school, worked in neighborhood missions and politics, worked as a social worker for some years in the same hood I came from, have started a few small businesses that employed people from that same area, and still have family living there, not a mile from where I was raised.

Now, lets test the 'validity' of what YOU are trying to con everyone into believing here vox. Tell us all about the last time you were in a BLACK neighborhood and you heard someone there say in public that "Blacks are more racist than whites". I'd really love to hear you tell us all about that my friend. I mean, who the freak you think you fooling with THAT BS?

Any more questions or mindless excuse-laden presumptions? You got something to discuss with me then come out and ask me like a man, stop hiding behind those childish stereotypes. You yourself didn't offer up any opinions or discussions regarding any of Elder's points, so WTF you acting like some sort of saint about? If you can't contribute to the specific topic here, then move out, simple.

[This message was edited by DeltaJ on March 19, 2004 at 12:21 PM.]
My "opinion" on his point, since you asked, has been stated clearly. His whole point was that you can't talk about these things in America, black or other. I believe he is wrong on that point. And my statement stands about you, since you didn't say that you interact with the black community and try to raise these points with them. You'd be unpleasantly surprised to see how wrong you and Larry are about what we're willing to talk about.
Ok, so you believe he is wrong. Thats fine. There was no reason to add all that 'psychic network' tripe about your mind reading, now was there.

Now, I've responded too. And I can point to a few of the other posts that vindicate Elder's point with examples. If you are really going to sit there and tell us that you hear people all the time saying in public, on tv, or in the hood, ANY of those things out loud, then thats on you.
What I think, and I've been intentionally limiting my conversation to this specific issue, is that ou guys have skewed ideas about what black people will tolerate. If you want to argue that most blacks disagree with the ten statements, I'd have no argument. But I believe your vision of black people is just a tad distorted if you think the average, workaday black man or woman fly into some kind of hostile mode if a subject is breached. That's simply not true of most of us.

And try, if you wish, to cite internet posts as an example of this hostility. I hope you at least understand that people who post on internet discussion sites are by no means representative of the general population. If you have to get your view of black people from aa.org, then nothing I've said so far is even remotely false about you.
DeltaJ, I suggest that you read my post again, but this time slowly and especially the opening sentence.
Disrespect is probably your main issue. All you come here to do is only dispute everything that the posters here say or reference. So basically you are a very divisive person who is dead weight to many of the topics here. If you are black, which is very questionable, then I suggest that you do something in your community to make the differences you want to see. Until then, hush your mouth.
quote:
Originally posted by Yssys:
8. Republicans vs. Democrats--maybe a dime's worth of difference
-_OMG! I agree with this, but Mr. Elder is copying this from Malcolm X. Could he get some original material here._



Yssys, you're in New York, right? Do you ever listen to "OpenLine" on Sundays on 98.7? One of my favorite comments by James Mtume is, "Right wing, left wing -- they're both on the same bird!"

quote:
Originally posted by DeltaJ:

Yeah, we all come from that 'mothership'. If I ever make such a claim, you'll be the first one I come to for advice, since you believe yourself to be the only 'black' expert here.



I don't understand the "Mothership" reference, but you do sound like you're not from around this Quadrant of space. As for who's proclaiming themselves to be what, YOU'RE the one who's here trying to tell us that blacks as a whole fly off the handle against you at the mere mention of certain topics. So evidently, it's YOU who claims to be the expert on black behavior. But as a black person who actually lives in a black neighborhood and actually has black friends whom I actually talk to, you would expect me to have a different opinion on the point.
Just before that firepower hits one's son/daughter over in Iraq or the zillion other places wars are being conducted at the moment (the "theater"), does "illigitimacy"/"legality" of one's birth make any difference whatsoever?? Does one die differently than the other?? Do the "elites" care or do they just find some others of the same ilk to keep on keeping the "mighty fight" on?? Just wondering.
Vox, I grew up on "Open Line", Min. Louis Farrakhan and Rev. Calvin Butts and southern food. Smile Just to frame how long that show has been on air, I am in my 30's and I began to listen about in Jr. High School. I could not wait to get up in the morning to listen before I had to go to church on Sundays. It's a very good show and now other radio stations in NY have followed suit. WBAI is another radio station in New York that is black oriented. They are also on the web.
Yssys
I seem to remember Openline as far back as the murder of Yusef Hawkins, and the Central Park jogger case. I'm glad they finally switched to two hours.

And oh, but isn't it interesting, that several of Larry Elders' "10 Things You Can't Say," have been discussed (and occasionally agreed with) by the left-wing, pro-black nationalist James Mtume and the others? The out-of-wedlock issue, the "Dime of difference" between the parties... Real world examples, for our buddy Delta J.
Well yssys, you calling me dead weight, you telling me to shutup, you say I cannot read, I mean lets be realistic here, who is really the one being 'disrespectful'.

Something occurs to me as I read your insults and accusations. Fact is Neither of you have even read Larry's book. Until you do, you are flapping your jaws in what vox himself described as "flying off the handle", thats just the reality here. You don't even know the position you are opposing, you are 'flying off the handle' now. (thanks vox)

If you haven't read what Elders says about any of these ten topics, why are you even opposing these statements at all? You don't know Elders positions or experiences on any of them. Is that what you do on ALL these issues you comment on?

Elders has written an entire book where he discusses in detail each of the ten topics. Both of you have only read a single title sentence and are making wide-ranging assumptions and basing your opinions on (...)Thats right, it BLANK.

You haven't read Elders. What could you possibly know about what he's written if you haven't read any of it? I find this common in those who are more interested in form rather than substance, by the way.

Thank you, I knew we'd come to our senses eventually. Faheem didn't read it, yssys didn't read it, and vox didn't read it. I read a single chapter, and plan on reading the rest very soon, since you 3 have motivated me here. In that one chapter, Elders mentions the conversations he's had from those 'leftists black nationalists', etc, so its obvious that your 'presumptions' are little more than 'guesses' based on prejudice, not from having read anything. Thanks again.
quote:
Originally posted by DeltaJ:

Something occurs to me as I read your insults and accusations. Fact is Neither of you have even read Larry's book. Until you do, you are flapping your jaws in what vox himself described as "flying off the handle", thats just the reality here. You don't even know the position you are opposing, you are 'flying off the handle' now. ...
You haven't read Elders. What could you possibly know about what he's written if you haven't read any of it? I find this common in those who are more interested in form rather than substance, by the way.




Since you're mistaken if you think I "decribed myself as flying off the handle," when I totally never said that, then what difference does it make to you WHAT someone else has read? After all, you READ my post, and you STILL screwed it up.

As for not reading his book, who cares? Larry Elder is not a scholar. He's the weakest writer and thinker I've ever read. Like I told Toussaint, if you defend this guy's writing, you can only be taken seriously by the far right, because he says what they want to hear (although poorly). He and his writings are absolute jokes, and I for one thank God that he doesn't apply his weak work toward promoting my people's interests. I'd be embarrassed.
quote:
Originally posted by Yssys:
If you are black, which is very questionable, then I suggest that you do something in your community to make the differences you want to see.


It's funny how we always go back to the issue of whether someone is "black" or not based on their opinions. Apparantly, some cannot get over the fact that (gasp) other black people disagree with them on issues- even those one might have held dear!

So, due to the gravity of this situation, a simple disagreement and debate won't suffice- you now have to change a person's race on top of all that! Roll Eyes

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Like I told Toussaint, if you defend this guy's writing, you can only be taken seriously by the far right, because he says what they want to hear (although poorly).


Stating that Elder's views are "far right" show that you have not read the man's material. How you can conclude that something is "a joke" without having read it is beyond me.

Larry Elder's goal is not to promote the interests of any specific group- it is to promote liberty, which happens to be in the interest of everyone except power mongers and leeches- the greatest of which are right here in D.C.
Whenever one speaks in a way that agrees with the most adverse position on every issue concerning blacks, you have to question their color. The reason being is that only a damn fool speaks against their own self-interest.....or that of their mother, father, sister and brother......that is why the question of whether someone is black comes up.......when they male really illogical statements...............
He's the weakest writer and thinker I've ever (not) read.

He and his writings are absolute jokes


Well lets see, you haven't read the book at all, and I doubt you'd consider yourself a listener of his show, but you still had some strong negative comments about it, and about Elders himself, as witnessed above. Sorry, but that is close enough to 'flying off the handle', for the majority of people on earth at least.

My view is that you must be competing for the 'king of backtracking' award. As far as your knowledge of Elders, you are correct, WHO CARES? You apparently don't HAVE any.

The question you must ask yourself, is why would someone, such as I, continue arguing with the blind about their lack of vision? That doesn't make for objective, or informed debate on any topic, as far as I can tell. I never even got to 'defend' the guys writing, defend it from WHAT, the fact that you haven't READ HIM? Has your head been with you all day today?

And with that, I've concluded my comments on this topic, at least with you. I'll submit your names in the 'I love to review books I haven't read at all' book club, if that makes you feel any better.
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
Whenever one speaks in a way that agrees with the most adverse position on every issue concerning blacks, you have to question their color.


Well, what you believe is "adverse" to blacks may not be so.

From what I've seen, Elder agrees with the position that liberty is the best option, through decreasing regulation, tax burdens etc. This comes from the view that that government has helped provide self-destructive incentives for blacks and has implimented "safety" (yeah right) regulations that have helped keep poorer folks out of certain markets for decades.

Adverse to blacks you say? I don't think so.

quote:
The reason being is that only a damn fool speaks against their own self-interest.....or that of their mother, father, sister and brother......that is why the question of whether someone is black comes up.......when they male really illogical statements...............


If someone believes that something that is beneficial to them is not right, then they are not fools, they're simply taking a stance on what they think is right.

Someone could tell me they'll take someone else's stuff and give it to me. Sure- I'd benefit from it, but that doesn't decide whether or not I am opposed to the person committing such an act. Would I be a fool for opposing this?
all one has to do is go to his column on drudgereport.com and see what a buffoon he is. He praises in and everything white and spends his time castigating blacks as if we are sub-species.....but the white....er...right loves a self-hating negro who will work to tear down his own..........he is a great form of entertainment and he may be useful in instilling inferiority, hopelessness and failure in others...........
DeltaJ, in the America that I live in, "flying off the handle" means "becoming extremely enraged." Second, I've read enough of his writings. If you were such a big Larry Elder fan, you'd know that the book you're referring to is not the only thing he has written. I've read his little column, numerous times, and I have not read his book. Either you're not all that bright, or you're trying to shift the focus of this topic now that Yssys and I have handed you your head on the main point of our disagreement.

And yes, I have heard his show. Occasionally, he's had his mother on the show, and when his topics don't concern race or ethnicity, I can actually stand him. But he's no scholar, and he's not somebody I'd be defending if I were a right winger.
toussaint,

fade the vague rhetoric.....policy analysis is the academic way of determining one's stance on an issue politically speaking......now if you and those bootlickers want to defend white people on issues such as AA, then go ahead....but as a black man who has completed education as far as you can go and became a instructor..all at a young age....I see the need for AA firsthand....and especially in gov't and business contracting.......maybe I want more for blacks instead of watching black tax dollars go to all-white contractors without any consideration for their abilities....maybe i'm tired of the disparities in black inner city schools where whites can obtain a 4.5 on a 4.0 scale and have inherent advantages embedded in their schools......maybe i'm tired of disparate sentencing in the prison system....and discrimination in housing, loans and even notification of what is available in terms of resources........and yes, those things are "adverse" to blacks.......and you or anyone else cannot logically explain how a black person is supposed to support legislation that lowers black educational attainment and business inclusion....while defending whites who steal, let their children in college with "D" averages and rob people of pensions and start wars abroad for no reason but to steal oil and place puppet gov'ts that will allow USA to control their resources and economy........so if you can look at all those issues and say they are not issues....then you are one white racist SOB or one negro longing for the plantation days to return...period
Wheres that, South America? Yeah, I'm sure you are a regular Larry Elders reader, and a faithful listener to his show.

Frankly your 'scholar' crap is silly. Dr King, nor Malcolm weren't scholars either, whatever thats supposed to mean. Jesse Jackson can barely talk at all, yet look at him. Mosely Braun, in one interview I saw, couldn't even remember what her college degree was in!

According to you, we should BURN everything they ever said or written? Come on friend, don't you get tired of untwisting yourself? I don't mind if you bash elders, why would I? Its not my loss. I just got better things to do.

Enjoy yourself, its free.
Delta....you are one real dumb azz if you really think you can disavow graduate studies for YOUR opinion on things.......go and read the mechanics of policy analysis and quit sounding like an illiterate.....read about lgislative intent and how outcomes are truly measured......but that type of diversionary answer you gave is why conservatives never thrive in academia...in the first place....but if you think your ego is big enough to disavow quantified social research.....then you truly lack an educated mind.....and it helps to explain how Dubya was able to make it a close election the first time......so i'm kool.....you bootlicking negroes and/or antagogonistic whites...i know what it takes to be highly successful in this racist azz backwoods country and I will work to give other blacks the same opportunity......anything else in my mind is bullshit.......

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